What prize should my friend keep his eye on?
August 12, 2008 9:52 AM Subscribe
If your parents divorced when you were a kid, how do you now wish they'd handled it?
This is for a friend who finds himself unexpectedly plunged into a messy divorce, complete with impending custody fight, and who is asking me for insights that I don't have to give.
The divorce, while a surprise to my friend, was even more surprising to me because my friend has been careful to conceal his marital difficulties in hopes that he could hold the situation together. He had to surrender that hope about a month ago, when his wife moved out and back in with her parents, taking their two daughters (11 and 13) with her. He called me a few days later to explain the situation.
It seems that his wife has had a couple of affairs over the last year or so (commit, get caught, get forgiven, lather rinse, repeat), run up astronomical credit card bills on secretly held cards, possibly abused some prescription drugs. She hasn't been able to hold down a job for years. My friend, hoping to somehow keep Humpty Dumpty from teetering off the wall, started working ridiculous numbers of hours to beat back the credit cards, which eroded his relationship with his daughters and led to his troubled, unemployed wife's feeling that she was being neglected (which she soothed with more overspending). After a recent confrontation over another affair, she moved out, calling my friend mean and claiming abuse.
So now the kids are staying with their mom, in a trailer on her parents' property. My friends in-laws, with whom he's always been on excellent terms, have circled the wagons and are doing the best to demonize him, brainwashing the girls about how terrible their father is, coaching them to say they that they don't want to live with him. Lovely, no?
Having worked so hard and forgiven so much for so long, to no avail, my friend is feeling defeated, betrayed, and unsure of his judgement. He wants to do whatever is best for his daughters, but he's not at all sure what that means. The girls seem conflicted and stuck in the middle, willing to tell each parent what he/she wants to hear, probably just wanting life to be the way it used to be.
The immediate question he has is whether to pull out all the stops and fight for custody. His soon-to-be-ex-wife has arranged to have the girls transferred to a new school, in the district where she's living with her parents. He fears that the transfer will make it harder to get custody of the girls later. Apparently he's got an opportunity to block the transfer, but this is likely to set off an extremely bitter fight that may torpedo his hopes for a civil and peaceful resolution to this mess, and potentially traumatize the girls even more than living with their mom would. He doesn't know what to do, and I don't know what to tell him.
Any thoughts, specifically about this issue or broadly, about the situation in general, would be appreciated.
This is for a friend who finds himself unexpectedly plunged into a messy divorce, complete with impending custody fight, and who is asking me for insights that I don't have to give.
The divorce, while a surprise to my friend, was even more surprising to me because my friend has been careful to conceal his marital difficulties in hopes that he could hold the situation together. He had to surrender that hope about a month ago, when his wife moved out and back in with her parents, taking their two daughters (11 and 13) with her. He called me a few days later to explain the situation.
It seems that his wife has had a couple of affairs over the last year or so (commit, get caught, get forgiven, lather rinse, repeat), run up astronomical credit card bills on secretly held cards, possibly abused some prescription drugs. She hasn't been able to hold down a job for years. My friend, hoping to somehow keep Humpty Dumpty from teetering off the wall, started working ridiculous numbers of hours to beat back the credit cards, which eroded his relationship with his daughters and led to his troubled, unemployed wife's feeling that she was being neglected (which she soothed with more overspending). After a recent confrontation over another affair, she moved out, calling my friend mean and claiming abuse.
So now the kids are staying with their mom, in a trailer on her parents' property. My friends in-laws, with whom he's always been on excellent terms, have circled the wagons and are doing the best to demonize him, brainwashing the girls about how terrible their father is, coaching them to say they that they don't want to live with him. Lovely, no?
Having worked so hard and forgiven so much for so long, to no avail, my friend is feeling defeated, betrayed, and unsure of his judgement. He wants to do whatever is best for his daughters, but he's not at all sure what that means. The girls seem conflicted and stuck in the middle, willing to tell each parent what he/she wants to hear, probably just wanting life to be the way it used to be.
The immediate question he has is whether to pull out all the stops and fight for custody. His soon-to-be-ex-wife has arranged to have the girls transferred to a new school, in the district where she's living with her parents. He fears that the transfer will make it harder to get custody of the girls later. Apparently he's got an opportunity to block the transfer, but this is likely to set off an extremely bitter fight that may torpedo his hopes for a civil and peaceful resolution to this mess, and potentially traumatize the girls even more than living with their mom would. He doesn't know what to do, and I don't know what to tell him.
Any thoughts, specifically about this issue or broadly, about the situation in general, would be appreciated.
Speaking as the child of divorced parents, I'd say this has already been handled as poorly as possible. There may be mitigating circumstances, or things that aren't being properly explained, but what you've written here is a textbook example of how not to proceed with a divorce when kids are involved. Divorce is rough on kids even in the best of circumstances, but using them as pawns is inexcusable.
Speaking as a dad, if what you've written here is unvarnished truth then your friend needs to get the nastiest, most expensive lawyer he can afford and fight for custody.
posted by lekvar at 10:12 AM on August 12, 2008
Speaking as a dad, if what you've written here is unvarnished truth then your friend needs to get the nastiest, most expensive lawyer he can afford and fight for custody.
posted by lekvar at 10:12 AM on August 12, 2008
Your friend absolutely NEEDS to spend $100-200 to talk to an attorney... maybe two if possible for a second opinion. Whether custody can be easily gained or not will have a big outcome on the game plan, and then your friend can take that advice specifically and evaluate the effect it will have. It is astonishing that a system has evolved that often awards custody to self-destructive mothers instead of responsible dads, but there are often exceptions and the attorney will be in the best position to answer questions about the reality of the situation.
One way or the other, however, there needs to be a decisive outcome so that there is stability for the kids. In the long run your friend can count on a good outcome with their kids as long as there's not an open-ended mess with arguing and squabbling between exes (the classic trailer fights, etc). He may have to put down restraining orders and abide by them to the tee if the ex is a loose cannon. On the same token I have read many reliable anecdotes that by never saying anything bad about your ex to your kids no matter what happens, and always being a pillar of reliability and maturity, the kids will quickly figure out which parent is an oasis of stability and trust, and will place their respect accordingly. This is not a lost cause.
posted by crapmatic at 10:14 AM on August 12, 2008 [1 favorite]
One way or the other, however, there needs to be a decisive outcome so that there is stability for the kids. In the long run your friend can count on a good outcome with their kids as long as there's not an open-ended mess with arguing and squabbling between exes (the classic trailer fights, etc). He may have to put down restraining orders and abide by them to the tee if the ex is a loose cannon. On the same token I have read many reliable anecdotes that by never saying anything bad about your ex to your kids no matter what happens, and always being a pillar of reliability and maturity, the kids will quickly figure out which parent is an oasis of stability and trust, and will place their respect accordingly. This is not a lost cause.
posted by crapmatic at 10:14 AM on August 12, 2008 [1 favorite]
Fight for custody, absolutely. I wish more dads did that - yes, the custody battle can cause trauma. But being told for the rest of your life that your dad didn't care enough to fight for you (even though it's not true), IMO, hurts more.
To help his kids, help mitigate the problems already caused with the girls, I can't recommend strongly enough this book: Divorce Poison. It outlines why the "standard thinking" - to not fight back, to say nothing while your children are being brainwashed against you - is not the way to go, and what you can do to help give your children the best chance at loving both their parents.
posted by twiki at 10:30 AM on August 12, 2008
To help his kids, help mitigate the problems already caused with the girls, I can't recommend strongly enough this book: Divorce Poison. It outlines why the "standard thinking" - to not fight back, to say nothing while your children are being brainwashed against you - is not the way to go, and what you can do to help give your children the best chance at loving both their parents.
posted by twiki at 10:30 AM on August 12, 2008
assuming what you wrote is true you would probably this guy absolutly needs to fight for custody. But it's a second hand doubly biased account, so I mean...
posted by delmoi at 10:51 AM on August 12, 2008
posted by delmoi at 10:51 AM on August 12, 2008
I went through a 10 year custody battle when I was a kid, ended by me moving in with the non-custodial (and very abusive) parent.
It was hell on me, my brother and my parents. I learned that adults were not to be trusted, that the legal system was a joke and that I'd better learn to repair houses, cook, raise my little brother, paint, do laundry, clean, etc., because if I didn't do it, no one would.
I'd suggest your friend get his act together before he make any decisions. If he isn't taking care of himself, he'll have nothing to give his kids. If he is stable, giving and emotionally present, then it won't matter if the mother has custody and is a nut ball.
The kids will learn soon enough who, if anyone, they can trust in this mess. Focus on being trustable, and get good, professional help (lawyers, counselors, etc.).
posted by QIbHom at 10:54 AM on August 12, 2008 [1 favorite]
It was hell on me, my brother and my parents. I learned that adults were not to be trusted, that the legal system was a joke and that I'd better learn to repair houses, cook, raise my little brother, paint, do laundry, clean, etc., because if I didn't do it, no one would.
I'd suggest your friend get his act together before he make any decisions. If he isn't taking care of himself, he'll have nothing to give his kids. If he is stable, giving and emotionally present, then it won't matter if the mother has custody and is a nut ball.
The kids will learn soon enough who, if anyone, they can trust in this mess. Focus on being trustable, and get good, professional help (lawyers, counselors, etc.).
posted by QIbHom at 10:54 AM on August 12, 2008 [1 favorite]
There is nothing that pisses me off more than a parent who uses their children as pawns against the other parent. If what you have written is accurate, the mother is doing just that, with the help of her family. The father should absolutely retain an attorney and fight for custody. If the mother chooses to make the custody battle particularly acrimonious, the children will eventually resent her for doing so.
As a daughter of divorced parents, I wish that my father had tried harder to retain partial custody or more regular visitation. My mother tried to remain neutral, but sometimes her own resentment towards my father got the best of her and she badmouthed him to me (including details of their sexual relationship, which was particularly disturbing). My father, to his credit, never once said anything bad about my mother to me, and neither did his family. I am absolutely grateful for that and I encourage your friend to vent his feelings about his soon-to-be-ex-wife to counselors and friends but NEVER to badmouth her to his children. He will have to take the high road and be diplomatic - something that will no doubt be incredibly difficult, but will benefit his children more in the end.
In any case, he should get an attorney and some counseling. I am sorry that your friend and his children are going through this.
posted by bedhead at 11:02 AM on August 12, 2008
As a daughter of divorced parents, I wish that my father had tried harder to retain partial custody or more regular visitation. My mother tried to remain neutral, but sometimes her own resentment towards my father got the best of her and she badmouthed him to me (including details of their sexual relationship, which was particularly disturbing). My father, to his credit, never once said anything bad about my mother to me, and neither did his family. I am absolutely grateful for that and I encourage your friend to vent his feelings about his soon-to-be-ex-wife to counselors and friends but NEVER to badmouth her to his children. He will have to take the high road and be diplomatic - something that will no doubt be incredibly difficult, but will benefit his children more in the end.
In any case, he should get an attorney and some counseling. I am sorry that your friend and his children are going through this.
posted by bedhead at 11:02 AM on August 12, 2008
Response by poster: Just to clarify, he's already got a lawyer -- the best he could find in the somewhat economically depressed, smallish-town area. Also, he agreed informally a while back that his wife could retain primary custody if she could get the kids into the particular school system that she got them into. He agreed to this because he never thought she'd be able to make it happen. Now that she's succeeded, fighting for custody would mean he'd be going back on his word to her, which he feels bad about despite the larger situation.
And yeah, it is secondhand and doubly biased, but I'm doing my best here.
posted by jon1270 at 11:04 AM on August 12, 2008
And yeah, it is secondhand and doubly biased, but I'm doing my best here.
posted by jon1270 at 11:04 AM on August 12, 2008
If this is true - he should definitely fight for custody of the kids - it sounds like they are living in a very toxic environment. He should also be sure he has a good lawyer, and if need be, go to a larger city to find one. If she's as messed up as she sounds like - please tell him to not give up - no kid should grow up with an addict.
Regardless of the outcome, his ex is already violating the one rule that I think is vitally important for the well-being of children of divorce: not having to pick sides. It's so important that the parents not talk smack about each other and try to manipulate the child's perception of the other parent. Children should feel loved by both parents and be able to love them freely in return without guilt.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 11:18 AM on August 12, 2008
Regardless of the outcome, his ex is already violating the one rule that I think is vitally important for the well-being of children of divorce: not having to pick sides. It's so important that the parents not talk smack about each other and try to manipulate the child's perception of the other parent. Children should feel loved by both parents and be able to love them freely in return without guilt.
posted by The Light Fantastic at 11:18 AM on August 12, 2008
Tell your friend: FIGHT. Fight hard, fight now, fight nasty. The kids will eventually forgive him as long as he treats them well after he wins custody, which I hope he does. It's an uphill battle, but it's one he owes his children. Tell him that he'll never have a good answer for his children when the come back to him as adults, and ask, "Why didn't you fight for me, Daddy?"
posted by Citrus at 11:34 AM on August 12, 2008
posted by Citrus at 11:34 AM on August 12, 2008
I'm the child of separated parents (they were never married, so never divorced.)
I agree wholeheartedly with the posters above who suggest that he should fight for access or custody. It's important to show he cares. He needs to make a visible display of wanting to ensure he has access - and access, in my book, could well be as good as custody, depending on what the mother and in-laws want. After all, we live in a mother-centric society so fathers are rarely granted sole custody.
Both parents should be careful about airing their laundry in front of the kids. The classic stuff is to talk about the misdeeds of the ex, to give the ex nasty nicknames or to say things to the kids like "it's not your fault" while implying that actually it is the kids' fault. He should do everything in his power to be completely civil to his ex at all times. Certainly no fights in front of the kids, and ideally no fights at all.
Your friend should not be seen to side against his ex-wife, nor should he ever criticise her or the in-laws. He has to turn the other cheek and be whiter than white. Even then, the kids might well still feel beholden to their mother - it's a natural instinct in many cases. But they need to be able to look back and see him as absolutely faultless in the matter. That will create an environment in which they can build bridges.
Assuming he gets access, it should be about valuable "us time", not about buying gifts or reminiscing about the past. He should play the part of exciting, fun, attentive, adventurous, supportive, masculine, strong, trustworthy father figure...he should make those weekend visits something that the kids actively look forward to.
posted by skylar at 11:46 AM on August 12, 2008
I agree wholeheartedly with the posters above who suggest that he should fight for access or custody. It's important to show he cares. He needs to make a visible display of wanting to ensure he has access - and access, in my book, could well be as good as custody, depending on what the mother and in-laws want. After all, we live in a mother-centric society so fathers are rarely granted sole custody.
Both parents should be careful about airing their laundry in front of the kids. The classic stuff is to talk about the misdeeds of the ex, to give the ex nasty nicknames or to say things to the kids like "it's not your fault" while implying that actually it is the kids' fault. He should do everything in his power to be completely civil to his ex at all times. Certainly no fights in front of the kids, and ideally no fights at all.
Your friend should not be seen to side against his ex-wife, nor should he ever criticise her or the in-laws. He has to turn the other cheek and be whiter than white. Even then, the kids might well still feel beholden to their mother - it's a natural instinct in many cases. But they need to be able to look back and see him as absolutely faultless in the matter. That will create an environment in which they can build bridges.
Assuming he gets access, it should be about valuable "us time", not about buying gifts or reminiscing about the past. He should play the part of exciting, fun, attentive, adventurous, supportive, masculine, strong, trustworthy father figure...he should make those weekend visits something that the kids actively look forward to.
posted by skylar at 11:46 AM on August 12, 2008
IANAL, or anyone who's ever been involved in a divorce, but it seems to me that your friend's daughter's well-being is so much more important than any verbal agreement he gave to his (soon to be ex-) wife. If he is able to care for these girls, then he owes it to them to do everything he can to get at least partial custody.
Poor kids.
posted by lunasol at 11:53 AM on August 12, 2008
Poor kids.
posted by lunasol at 11:53 AM on August 12, 2008
Speaking from my own experience; when I was adopted, my biological father did not go bankrupt trying to prevent it. I did and do not hold it against him, and today he is my best friend.
posted by Brocktoon at 12:21 PM on August 12, 2008
posted by Brocktoon at 12:21 PM on August 12, 2008
Best lesson I learned from watching a friend go through an absolutely awful divorce:
Dad should make every effort to contact his children every single day. Keep it casual -- how was your day, what's new, how's school, etc. Don't talk about mom at all except in the most general and positive terms he can. This could mean simply calling or it might also mean working out his schedule so he meets them before or after school. Even IM might work if they do that. He should, of course, talk with his lawyer before he does this, but they are his children and he should retain the right to unlimited contact to them.
This will do two things: 1) The wife blocking contact will look bad in court. More importantly, 2) Even if the girls seem to be hostile to him, over time they will remember his attempts to make contact, to reach out, and best case is that in a very short period of time they will see who is the reasonable parent and who is the unreasonable one. This is more about preserving his relationship with his daughters in the long term than anything else.
Good luck to your friend.
posted by anastasiav at 12:28 PM on August 12, 2008 [2 favorites]
Dad should make every effort to contact his children every single day. Keep it casual -- how was your day, what's new, how's school, etc. Don't talk about mom at all except in the most general and positive terms he can. This could mean simply calling or it might also mean working out his schedule so he meets them before or after school. Even IM might work if they do that. He should, of course, talk with his lawyer before he does this, but they are his children and he should retain the right to unlimited contact to them.
This will do two things: 1) The wife blocking contact will look bad in court. More importantly, 2) Even if the girls seem to be hostile to him, over time they will remember his attempts to make contact, to reach out, and best case is that in a very short period of time they will see who is the reasonable parent and who is the unreasonable one. This is more about preserving his relationship with his daughters in the long term than anything else.
Good luck to your friend.
posted by anastasiav at 12:28 PM on August 12, 2008 [2 favorites]
I still can't get over after all these years at what it did to me when my adoptive-father just "walked away" and left me and my sister with the handicapped emotionally inept mother...I know its not the same, because we were "adopted", but he was the only father I had ever known. It took my father and I about 15 years to re-establish any sort of a relationship, and it is still uncomfortable and strained with a bunch of resentment on my part. I talk to him because I finally figured out that not talking to him was hurting me, not him. I missed having a father figure.
I say fight, even if your friend doesnt think he will win, or the odds are against him. Fight for those girls, so when they are older, or adults, or whatever, they will know that he cared enough to fight. Nothing is more devastating than to think that your pops doenst give a damn about you.
posted by Jenny is Crafty at 12:40 PM on August 12, 2008
I say fight, even if your friend doesnt think he will win, or the odds are against him. Fight for those girls, so when they are older, or adults, or whatever, they will know that he cared enough to fight. Nothing is more devastating than to think that your pops doenst give a damn about you.
posted by Jenny is Crafty at 12:40 PM on August 12, 2008
Response by poster: I really appreciate all of the thoughtful responses so far. I'm not going to try to pick out which ones are best, because the chorus seems more important than any one voice.
To clarify further, I don't think there's much chance he'd be completely cut out of his girls' lives. Rather, the immediate question seems to be which parent has primary custody, which is directly tied to which school they go to. The secondary parent, it seems, is likely to get the girls every other weekend during the school year and some larger fraction of the time during the summer.
Again, I really think my friend will find these responses helpful (once he gets over his mortification that I posted his story online). Thanks.
posted by jon1270 at 1:03 PM on August 12, 2008
To clarify further, I don't think there's much chance he'd be completely cut out of his girls' lives. Rather, the immediate question seems to be which parent has primary custody, which is directly tied to which school they go to. The secondary parent, it seems, is likely to get the girls every other weekend during the school year and some larger fraction of the time during the summer.
Again, I really think my friend will find these responses helpful (once he gets over his mortification that I posted his story online). Thanks.
posted by jon1270 at 1:03 PM on August 12, 2008
The immediate question he has is whether to pull out all the stops and fight for custody. His soon-to-be-ex-wife has arranged to have the girls transferred to a new school, in the district where she's living with her parents. He fears that the transfer will make it harder to get custody of the girls later. Apparently he's got an opportunity to block the transfer, but this is likely to set off an extremely bitter fight that may torpedo his hopes for a civil and peaceful resolution to this mess, and potentially traumatize the girls even more than living with their mom would. He doesn't know what to do, and I don't know what to tell him...
Also, he agreed informally a while back that his wife could retain primary custody if she could get the kids into the particular school system that she got them into. He agreed to this because he never thought she'd be able to make it happen.
This seems to be the crux of the issue, yes? The paragraphs in the beginning, about what an awful wife she was (cheating, running up bills, etc) don't really seem relevant to the question, and might even be a distraction that keeps him from seeing the real issue. All the advice above about getting a lawyer is good advice, particularly around the issue of whether failing to contest the move will make seeking custody difficult down the road, so I'll stick a bit to the advice I can offer you, as a friend of his.
I think that it's very difficult in the immediate aftermath of a marriage breakup to focus on what's best for the kids and not get sucked into the anger and hurt you feel about a partner's behavior. Even with the best intentions of focusing on the kids and only what's best for them, it's hard to let go of betrayal and pain--but this can really start to infect your perception about what's best for the kids (because if she was nasty enough to do X, then she must be at her core a bad person, and it *couldn't* be good for the kids to stay with a bad person). I think, particularly if the breakup of the marriage was as much her fault as that story makes it sound, there's a real danger that your friend could let his justified anger at his ex-wife distort his perception to the extent that he starts making decisions that are not in the best interest of his kids.
That's where a good friend can be really helpful, I think--you have enough perspective to help him separate the "what a friggin' *(#%* she is" from "what is objectively best for my kids." For example: is the school district that his ex-wife wants to enroll their kids in actually a better district? Does the school have a better reputation, better scores, more AP classes, higher college placement rates? Because if he's really putting the kids first, that needs to figure into his decision. If it is a better district, then the plan of action might look different from if it's actually a worse school district. (For example, could he move there, so that he could keep joint custody or daily contact with the kids while still having them enrolled in the better district?)
My parents split up when I was about the age of his daughters, and I can't imagine anything more counterproductive and awful than a long, drawn-out custody battle. My mom had primary custody even though she was not operating at her best after the divorce, and let me tell you--despite her faults, despite the fact that my father would have been the more stable parent (emotionally as well as financially) to live with at that point--I don't for a second think I would have been better off if my dad had fought for custody rather than taking a suboptimal situation and doing what he needed to do to keep that relationship cordial. What he chose to do was find a place to rent about 3 blocks from where my mother lived, and despite the fact that his business took a hit and he wasn't able to move closer to his elderly parents and he wasted thousands and thousands of dollars in rent when he could have been building equity (he would have a *lot* more in retirement savings if he had bought a place back then), he stayed in that rental for six years until his youngest kid had graduated high school and left for college. He never once made it about whose fault it was that the marriage ended, or about the fact he was probably a better parent than my mother was at that point, or that he could have financially provided for us better. It was an entirely selfless decision, and his kids recognized it pretty quickly. I have an extremely, extremely close relationship with my father today--and a really good relationship with my mother--and I probably wouldn't have either if there had been a nasty custody fight in court.
Be a good friend by helping him focus on what is really, truly best for his kids. Unless the mother is seriously abusive (emotionally or physically), criminally neglecting them, or the kids are in danger from an unsafe living environment (a trailer sounds less nice than a house, but certainly not dangerous, and potentially even worth it if it's the only way to get them into a very very good school), it doesn't sound like ripping their lives even further apart in a bitter custody battle is really in their best interest. If there is any way for him to keep things amicable between himself and his ex-wife--even if it's not fair, even if it's not the "ideal" outcome, even if the kids would be cared for better in his house--I'd try to encourage him to try that first. A nasty custody battle that the courts have to mediate is the nuclear option, with all the collateral damage to his kids that implies, and he should hold off on that until it's clear that the very real damage it will do to his daughters is less than the damage from not doing it. What you've described doesn't even sound close.
posted by iminurmefi at 1:32 PM on August 12, 2008 [1 favorite]
Also, he agreed informally a while back that his wife could retain primary custody if she could get the kids into the particular school system that she got them into. He agreed to this because he never thought she'd be able to make it happen.
This seems to be the crux of the issue, yes? The paragraphs in the beginning, about what an awful wife she was (cheating, running up bills, etc) don't really seem relevant to the question, and might even be a distraction that keeps him from seeing the real issue. All the advice above about getting a lawyer is good advice, particularly around the issue of whether failing to contest the move will make seeking custody difficult down the road, so I'll stick a bit to the advice I can offer you, as a friend of his.
I think that it's very difficult in the immediate aftermath of a marriage breakup to focus on what's best for the kids and not get sucked into the anger and hurt you feel about a partner's behavior. Even with the best intentions of focusing on the kids and only what's best for them, it's hard to let go of betrayal and pain--but this can really start to infect your perception about what's best for the kids (because if she was nasty enough to do X, then she must be at her core a bad person, and it *couldn't* be good for the kids to stay with a bad person). I think, particularly if the breakup of the marriage was as much her fault as that story makes it sound, there's a real danger that your friend could let his justified anger at his ex-wife distort his perception to the extent that he starts making decisions that are not in the best interest of his kids.
That's where a good friend can be really helpful, I think--you have enough perspective to help him separate the "what a friggin' *(#%* she is" from "what is objectively best for my kids." For example: is the school district that his ex-wife wants to enroll their kids in actually a better district? Does the school have a better reputation, better scores, more AP classes, higher college placement rates? Because if he's really putting the kids first, that needs to figure into his decision. If it is a better district, then the plan of action might look different from if it's actually a worse school district. (For example, could he move there, so that he could keep joint custody or daily contact with the kids while still having them enrolled in the better district?)
My parents split up when I was about the age of his daughters, and I can't imagine anything more counterproductive and awful than a long, drawn-out custody battle. My mom had primary custody even though she was not operating at her best after the divorce, and let me tell you--despite her faults, despite the fact that my father would have been the more stable parent (emotionally as well as financially) to live with at that point--I don't for a second think I would have been better off if my dad had fought for custody rather than taking a suboptimal situation and doing what he needed to do to keep that relationship cordial. What he chose to do was find a place to rent about 3 blocks from where my mother lived, and despite the fact that his business took a hit and he wasn't able to move closer to his elderly parents and he wasted thousands and thousands of dollars in rent when he could have been building equity (he would have a *lot* more in retirement savings if he had bought a place back then), he stayed in that rental for six years until his youngest kid had graduated high school and left for college. He never once made it about whose fault it was that the marriage ended, or about the fact he was probably a better parent than my mother was at that point, or that he could have financially provided for us better. It was an entirely selfless decision, and his kids recognized it pretty quickly. I have an extremely, extremely close relationship with my father today--and a really good relationship with my mother--and I probably wouldn't have either if there had been a nasty custody fight in court.
Be a good friend by helping him focus on what is really, truly best for his kids. Unless the mother is seriously abusive (emotionally or physically), criminally neglecting them, or the kids are in danger from an unsafe living environment (a trailer sounds less nice than a house, but certainly not dangerous, and potentially even worth it if it's the only way to get them into a very very good school), it doesn't sound like ripping their lives even further apart in a bitter custody battle is really in their best interest. If there is any way for him to keep things amicable between himself and his ex-wife--even if it's not fair, even if it's not the "ideal" outcome, even if the kids would be cared for better in his house--I'd try to encourage him to try that first. A nasty custody battle that the courts have to mediate is the nuclear option, with all the collateral damage to his kids that implies, and he should hold off on that until it's clear that the very real damage it will do to his daughters is less than the damage from not doing it. What you've described doesn't even sound close.
posted by iminurmefi at 1:32 PM on August 12, 2008 [1 favorite]
Lawyer up. She might be abusing drugs? Doesn't matter what anyone might think about that, that fact could help your friend get the custody of the kids.
posted by dunkadunc at 1:33 PM on August 12, 2008
posted by dunkadunc at 1:33 PM on August 12, 2008
Unless these girls have been incredibly sheltered for their entire lives - at the ages of 11 and 13 they *should* be able to see some of (if not all) the bullshit that is taking place around them. (I'm not saying that the adults in the situation will recognize this as either an idea or a possible fact.)
The father needs to be in contact with the girls, he needs to stand up for and fight for the girls - whether that means fighting for custody or just making sure the girls' interests are best served while they are with their mother. It would also be a good idea to make sure that the girls see a therapist.
In some states both of the girls are old enough to have a say in who gets custody. Make sure their opinion is heard.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 1:58 PM on August 12, 2008
The father needs to be in contact with the girls, he needs to stand up for and fight for the girls - whether that means fighting for custody or just making sure the girls' interests are best served while they are with their mother. It would also be a good idea to make sure that the girls see a therapist.
In some states both of the girls are old enough to have a say in who gets custody. Make sure their opinion is heard.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 1:58 PM on August 12, 2008
Urgh, just to add the novel I wrote above--if I could put my 12-year-old self with recently-divorced parents in the driver's seat for your friend, this is what I'd do:
1. Figure out which school is better academically for the daughters. That should determine the district they live in.
1a. If the better school is in the in-laws' district, I'd let Mom have primary custody for now (checking with lawyer about implications for down-the-line custody contesting), and figure out how I could move away from my economically depressed, smallish-town area to a place near my daughters, ideally within walking distance. I'd figure out a housing situation such that both daughters had a room (or shared a room) that was a permanent part of my living situation, and make it clear that they were always, always welcome because it was their house too.
1b. If the better school was in my district, I'd marshall the relevant statistics and metrics and try to sit down with my ex-wife in the spirit of finding the best solution for our children. I'd try to convince her that keeping the kids in my district was in their best interest. If she seemed unwilling to budge, I'd offer to let her keep primary custody if she'd agree to move back to my district. I'd offer to help with expenses to keep her and my children in a decent apartment in my town.
2. Find a counselor for the daughters. Convince ex-wife it's in the best interest in our children to find them a safe place to process their feelings. Pay for all counseling myself, if necessary, without bitching.
3. Try to convince ex-wife to go to post-divorce counseling so that we could learn to work together well in the interest of our kids. Offer to pay for it all. If she won't go to counseling, ask about mediation.
4. When things go wrong, or become almost unbearably frustrating and unfair--like when my in-laws (who can't be such bad people if I had a good relationship with them pre-divorce) talk smack about me to my kids--I'd pull out Ye Olde Bible Stories and meditate hard on the classic story of King Solomon and the disputed baby. Meditate very hard, and remember what's important, and do whatever is in the best interest of the kids, whether or not that's particularly fair to me.
posted by iminurmefi at 2:08 PM on August 12, 2008 [1 favorite]
1. Figure out which school is better academically for the daughters. That should determine the district they live in.
1a. If the better school is in the in-laws' district, I'd let Mom have primary custody for now (checking with lawyer about implications for down-the-line custody contesting), and figure out how I could move away from my economically depressed, smallish-town area to a place near my daughters, ideally within walking distance. I'd figure out a housing situation such that both daughters had a room (or shared a room) that was a permanent part of my living situation, and make it clear that they were always, always welcome because it was their house too.
1b. If the better school was in my district, I'd marshall the relevant statistics and metrics and try to sit down with my ex-wife in the spirit of finding the best solution for our children. I'd try to convince her that keeping the kids in my district was in their best interest. If she seemed unwilling to budge, I'd offer to let her keep primary custody if she'd agree to move back to my district. I'd offer to help with expenses to keep her and my children in a decent apartment in my town.
2. Find a counselor for the daughters. Convince ex-wife it's in the best interest in our children to find them a safe place to process their feelings. Pay for all counseling myself, if necessary, without bitching.
3. Try to convince ex-wife to go to post-divorce counseling so that we could learn to work together well in the interest of our kids. Offer to pay for it all. If she won't go to counseling, ask about mediation.
4. When things go wrong, or become almost unbearably frustrating and unfair--like when my in-laws (who can't be such bad people if I had a good relationship with them pre-divorce) talk smack about me to my kids--I'd pull out Ye Olde Bible Stories and meditate hard on the classic story of King Solomon and the disputed baby. Meditate very hard, and remember what's important, and do whatever is in the best interest of the kids, whether or not that's particularly fair to me.
posted by iminurmefi at 2:08 PM on August 12, 2008 [1 favorite]
My parents tried their best not to say nasty things about one another in front of us, but inevitably they failed. My brother is 42, I'm 33, and my parents have been divorced for thirty years and still I hear the occasional swipe. My father once said something complimentary about my mom and still sticks in my head because it was that rare.
Rules 1) Never say anything nasty about your ex-spouse in front of your kids; 2) Don't yell at each other in front of the kids or or otherwise argue in front of them 3) Try, if you can, to say nice things about one another. It's probably a hard thing to do but I think it will help.
posted by bananafish at 4:10 PM on August 12, 2008
Rules 1) Never say anything nasty about your ex-spouse in front of your kids; 2) Don't yell at each other in front of the kids or or otherwise argue in front of them 3) Try, if you can, to say nice things about one another. It's probably a hard thing to do but I think it will help.
posted by bananafish at 4:10 PM on August 12, 2008
My parents are just now getting divorced (I'm 30). But it's got me talking to other friends whose parents divorced earlier. Here are common threads: stay amicable (he'll be talking to that ex- forever -- college graduation, weddings, grandkids...), don't bad-mouth the ex- (the girls deserve to be able to love their mother even if she screwed your friend over), and don't keep count and compare (one person on AskMe said something like "I still try to call my mom every time I call my dad and vice versa" -- if he's laid-back, his daughters may not have to go through that).
posted by salvia at 12:29 AM on August 13, 2008
posted by salvia at 12:29 AM on August 13, 2008
Looking at the way the many divorces in the family affected me and my half/step siblings... he should definitely fight, if not for full custody then for as much visitation as he can get, at least to go on record as having wanted them very badly. It will make a huge difference in how they view him, and it will also cast a shroud of lies over the mom's hurtful words.
And while he shouldn't badmouth the mom, he *should* sit the girls down at some point, apologize for being absent, and explain that he only did it because he was trying to work so hard to keep the family financially afloat because he loves them. That is seriously the most important thing, what will determine how screwed-up the kids are... they need to know that both parents love and want them very, very much.
Your friend's situation sounds extremely similar to the one my father found himself in with his second wife. My half-siblings were around the same age, and there were similar cheating/spending issues (although my stepmom was a bit more devious in her behavior, on her lawyer's advice). My half-siblings ended up with my Dad, and they will tell you how grateful they are that they ended up with him... meanwhile, my older bio-brother has NEVER stopped resenting that Dad fought for custody of *them* and not *us*.
posted by Gianna at 1:49 PM on November 29, 2008
And while he shouldn't badmouth the mom, he *should* sit the girls down at some point, apologize for being absent, and explain that he only did it because he was trying to work so hard to keep the family financially afloat because he loves them. That is seriously the most important thing, what will determine how screwed-up the kids are... they need to know that both parents love and want them very, very much.
Your friend's situation sounds extremely similar to the one my father found himself in with his second wife. My half-siblings were around the same age, and there were similar cheating/spending issues (although my stepmom was a bit more devious in her behavior, on her lawyer's advice). My half-siblings ended up with my Dad, and they will tell you how grateful they are that they ended up with him... meanwhile, my older bio-brother has NEVER stopped resenting that Dad fought for custody of *them* and not *us*.
posted by Gianna at 1:49 PM on November 29, 2008
Response by poster: It may be that nobody ever looks at this thread again, since it's now almost 9 months old, but just in case I thought I'd pop in and say that my friend did fight and, against the odds, won custody of his kids. It was an awful, expensive and emotionally brutal legal battle, but it's over and the sun has come up again. Thanks again for all the thoughts.
posted by jon1270 at 7:23 AM on May 7, 2009
posted by jon1270 at 7:23 AM on May 7, 2009
I think many people see these threads in their "recent activity" window; I did. Thanks for the update, and congrats to your friend.
posted by salvia at 3:36 PM on May 7, 2009
posted by salvia at 3:36 PM on May 7, 2009
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:59 AM on August 12, 2008 [1 favorite]