Here is my backwards curse: Girls I might befriend platonically always end up wanting "something more," and it ends in disaster. How can I break this pattern of causing pain?

September 1, 2007 1:46 PM

Girls I might want to befriend are romantically/sexually attracted to me...Are platonic relationships really possible? If so, how do I get out of this pattern of disastrous endings? Most specifically, how do I relate to a new "female friend" in my life without causing pain?

I'm a heterosexual, 24 year-old, solitary type of guy...Let's put the tendencies towards social isolation aside because I have absolutely no problem with that right now. Fact is, I don't make friends easily and when I do make a connection, for whatever reason it tends to be with a girl...This next part is going to sound very backwards: the problem is that I am open to (not seeking, but certainly open to) platonic relationships, but 9/10 times they don't work out...it soon gets weird as I realize the girl is attracted to me and wants more than friendship. This pattern has played itself out to tragic ends one too many times. I want to learn how to deal with this without hurting anyone...myself included....

Put aside my current resistance to romance, because it is genuine and well-founded...I have no problem with it. I've experienced and ended two serious relationships in the past 18 months and realize now that I have some issues to work out before I can cause more good than harm to another person (and myself) in that role. I don't see anything lacking to be filled by a romance right now. My sex drive is nil, at absolute zero...has been for almost 6 months (sounds weird but it's happened before too). If I had a girlfriend or a wife, that would be pathology; being single, I consider it a blessing. It gives me time and energy for other things. My attention is elsewhere, and for me, at this moment in my life, that's just fine.

So I think I have great, healthy reasons for keeping things platonic...But is it really possible? I appear to be "making friends" with a girl from work. Am I being naive yet again? I think I am, though not as completely this time. What in the world do I do?

I asked elderwisdomcircle.org and my elder accused me of sending mixed signals to the girls I meet. In the past 6 or 7 cases that might have happened once, but except for the one case where I was admittedly confused, I think I have been very clear and careful about what I say and do. In the very last case I told the girl in txt messages and emails that I was not at all interested in romance. I guess it would've been more effective in person, and I could've sunk the point and added "with anyone, including you," but I am timid and don't want to be presumptuous or rude about these things. Anyway, it ended in disaster...

How can I explain where I'm coming from without causing pain, without making an ass out of myself, and hopefully without losing a friend? How can I prevent the pattern from playing out yet again? My new "platonic friend" is almost certainly attracted to me. Do I have any options that don't involve people getting hurt? What is the best one?

Should I just make it a point not to talk to girls? Be an asshole upfront to avoid being more of an asshole later? Should I lie and tell them I'm gay? (Someone here is probably going to suggest I actually *am* gay...but I have no romantic/sexual interest in guys whatsoever...I am a heterosexual, though during periods [like now] I guess asexual would be more accurate).

I guess my most pressing question is what in the world to do about the current situation and this girl who's already in my life? Thankfully I don't have a phone right now so it has taken off some of the pressure...I see her once a week at work and we sometimes exchange emails...we had lunch and went to the beach twice. I can sense she wants to spend more time together, and I suspect that it's likely to end in some kind of disaster yet again.

Please try to leave aside and accept as givens the solitary tendencies, the asexuality, the resistance to romance. You might think that these are issues but I don't see any of it as problematic at this moment in my life. I do accept that at some point I could probably benefit from some really good professional counseling, though it doesn't seem imperative (or affordable) right now...

If I could have a platonic friend, great, if not...fine, but I want to avoid or minimize this pattern of causing pain. MeFi, please share your thoughts and any relevant experience...thanks!

posted by consilium to human relations (28 comments total)

I have the opposite problem. Apparently I am skilled at signaling platonic intent. If I knew why, I would tell you (and date more). Could you describe how you interact with these women when you meet them and spend time with them?
posted by colgate at 2:18 PM on September 1, 2007

not talking to girls, i think, is a bad idea. why cut yourself off from knowing half the human race?

that said, if you are not interested in a relationship at this point, make sure she knows it early on, and reinforce it. if you're physically affectionate, you'll probably want to tone it down. try not to do "date" things like paying for her or picking her up (unless the situation obviously calls for it--like you need a date for a wedding or something).

now, be prepared for girls to be attracted to your nonsexual approach to them. it's the same reason they get crushes on gay men--they know the guy is hanging out with them because of who they are, not just to get into their pants. many girls, especially recently emerged from the hormonal hotbed of high school and college, find this incredibly refreshing and, well, appealing. it often wears off--you might need to lie low for a while, but it doesn't always lead to disaster.

you might also try finding an lgbt support group in your area--although you don't fit into any of those boxes, asexuality is non-standard expression of sexuality, and it might be nice to hang out around people who can relate.
posted by thinkingwoman at 2:22 PM on September 1, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

- Are platonic relationships really possible?

Yes, of course.

- If so, how do I get out of this pattern of disastrous endings?

I found with platonic relationships, it helps to talk about dating other people or other relationships. As in that sends clear signals that you like her as a friend (or vice versa) and don't want to take it anywhere.

- Most specifically, how do I relate to a new "female friend" in my life without causing pain?

If she's attracted to you, do not do date things. Do not have dinner and then a show. Meet up with friends, or meet her during the day until the boundaries are established.

Some people cannot have platonic friendships. Move on, and don't drag her along if you know the only reason she's talking to you is the chance at a romantic relationship. There's plenty of chill girls out there that aren't relationship jumpers and who can maintain guy friends. Though to be honest, I have a feeling the problem might be you. Unless you're a soap opera hunk, I doubt these women are throwing themselves on you.

I've had no problems with women and platonic friendships. The key is to ask yourself, "Would I be doing this with guy friends?" or "Would I treat a guy friend the same way?", and if the answer is "no", you shouldn't be doing it.
posted by geoff. at 2:24 PM on September 1, 2007

In your normal routine of becoming friends with someone, do you flirt with them - eg by teasing/mock-insulting them, holding eye contact a little longer than normal with a smile, giving hugs or backrubs, doing small considerate things like remembering something about them ("I picked this restaurant because you said the other day you love shrimp")? I have known two other people who had this problem of always having friends think they wanted lovin, and in both cases this was the problem. They were flirting without realizing it.

I think the only thing to do is (a) be honest with yourself about whether you are flirting, and minimize your flirting if you are, and (b) tell this woman explicitly that you don't want her to get the wrong idea, you like her a lot as a friend, and want to keep things just on that level.
posted by LobsterMitten at 2:27 PM on September 1, 2007 [4 favorites has favorites]

I should reinforce the notion that some people, male or female, seem incapable of having relationships of the platonic nature. Usually, but not always, the better the social life of the person the less chance of this happening becomes. Just like you'd find a good match to date with someone, you should not assume that everyone is capable of being your friend by default.

Again, looking at successful platonic relationships I've had, it always involved us openly and not awkwardly talking about other relationships. That's what friends, not lovers, do.
posted by geoff. at 2:29 PM on September 1, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

my elder accused me of sending mixed signals to the girls I meet...I see [the new girl] once a week at work and we sometimes exchange emails...we had lunch and went to the beach twice.

Your elder is right. You don't go to the beach twice with a girl you're not interested in, without making your lack of interest clear. Failure to do so is the definition of "sending mixed signals." Going to the beach, you see, is a signal.

Fortunately for you, sending signals of disinterest is easy. Practice the following phrases, and then work them into conversation early in your non-relationships:

"I'm completely uninterested in sex with anyone at this point."
"What I really want from women at this point in my life is frienship."
"It's really great to have you as a friend."
"No thanks, I'd rather go home and read."

The great thing is, that when a girl is interested in a guy, she very often asks questions and makes statements that leave easy openings to say this kind of stuff. Example:

Her: It's hard to tell sometimes when a guy has a girlfriend. Like you, do you have a girlfriend?
You: No, and I don't want one.
Her: Seriously? Why not?
You: I am serious. I just want friends right now. That's all I'm looking for.

Girls want to avoid direct rejection at all costs (if they are the reject-ee), so they will pick up your "not interested" signals and leave you alone.

Unfortunately, after you reject someone, even very indirectly, they may not want to be your friend. They may think that, as the cliche goes, they have enough friends already, and would rather not be friends with a guy who they are attracted to but who isn't interested in them. And you have to just deal with that.
posted by bingo at 2:31 PM on September 1, 2007 [2 favorites has favorites]

You lucky dog. No one can break your heart or distract your gaze.

You realize you present a challenge to ambitious women, right? The "wrong" signals might include revealing the truth. You need to invent a long-distance lover for whom you pine or imply that you might be gay or something like that. Telling the truth -- that you aren't like most men and don't want to have sex with them -- may be your problem. Alternately, you could seem *only* interested in that, in which case every woman you know will be eager to be "just friends" with you. Maybe develop a pretend porn addiction or something.

Or trade lives with almost every other man on planet earth.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:32 PM on September 1, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]

Or try making male friends. It should be easy as you would be an excellent if not perfect wingman.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:33 PM on September 1, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Don't touch her back when you cross the street. Don't hold her hand, don't engage in cuddling or hugging. Don't kiss her on the cheek, don't pretend to kiss her hand. Don't put your arm around her shoulders, don't lean your head close to hers to talk to her while watching tv or movies. Don't massage her shoulders, and don't let her massage yours.

If you feel you must compliment her, do so generically- "I like that shirt" not "I like that shirt on you." Don't stand closer to her than you would your dad.

Don't buy her any-occasion gifts, don't send her things because you were thinking of her, or they reminded you of her. Call occasionally, not often. Don't go out more than once or twice a month with her, and when you do go, go early in the day and go dutch. Go places in groups. Don't go back to her apartment; don't invite her to yours. Always drive separately.

And if the subject comes up anyway, tell her you're not interested in dating, not particularly sexual, and you just want a friend.

Colgate- do exactly the opposite. Good luck to you both.
posted by headspace at 2:35 PM on September 1, 2007 [4 favorites has favorites]

Your problem seems quite clear from what I'm inferring from your post.
If you want to have female friends you need to have a lot of them simultaneously and spend time with them together.

Spending a lot of time 1 on 1 with the same girl, of course there's going to be mixed signals and sexual tension, even if you're not remotely interested.
posted by missmagenta at 2:48 PM on September 1, 2007

I work with the nerd type and meet a lot of guys like you. A lot of them just say it up front or talk about being asexual or "partly asexual." Or they have such on their facebook/myspace. Send an open signal.

I'm friends with these guys. I might think they are cute, but I know that making a move would be unfair. But even if you are open there is always the woman who idiotically believes men can be changed. Learn how to identify those women (hints can often be found: rehabs stray cats, wants to release prisoners, doesn't believe in human nature, etc.), stay away.

But, it is possible there are women out their that would be happy with you. A woman with a low sex drive is a lot more common than a similar man and it's hard for such women.
posted by melissam at 2:50 PM on September 1, 2007

You can be timid and continue to get mired in unhappy situations or you can be straightforward and save yourself a lot of grief.

You'll be better off adopting a more old-fashioned or conservative mode of interacting with women. You are going to have to avoid intimacy if you don't want to send mixed signals. Don't go on dates to the beach with them, don't go out alone with them, keep an arm's length distance, do not discuss titillating or risque topics with them. If you hold the line, you will find minds with which you can become closer friends platonically, but you have to let the others sift out first.

You're 24, almost all of your peers are deeply embroiled in the date-and-mate game, and if you don't want the complications you have to remove yourself from it. If you're out, so to speak, about being asexual, you may find you draw friends to you who appreciate it; there will be the ones who see it as a challenge, but honestly those people don't respect you if you make your boundaries clear and they don't care. You have to make the boundaries clear, though, and mean it.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:07 PM on September 1, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Pick your nose.

If she looks at you funny, explain why you're doing it ("There's something in there that's kind of scratchy and it's driving me nuts. Thanks for being so understanding.")

Remember these snappy answers:
What's your favorite color? Gray
What kind of music do you like? I don't like music much.

Talk about your favorite television programs.

And, when all else fails, ask what Homer Simpson would do (hint: scratch butt)
posted by hexatron at 3:12 PM on September 1, 2007

Actually it's possible to be platonic friends with someone who likes you "that way." I had a friend in college who would have married me in a new york minute but all I had for him was brotherly love. We managed to stay friends. I was honest with him, he was honest with me.

I do suggest you make friends with more than one woman at a time. Ask them BOTH to go do things with you. THAT says platonic.

And do keep your hands off. We gals are stimulated by touch the way guys are by sight. We tend to misinterpret touching as sexual interest.
posted by konolia at 3:23 PM on September 1, 2007 [4 favorites has favorites]

From my experience, it is completely possible to have platonic guy friends. However, the key is to let her know from the start what type of relationship you're forming. Forget being "presumptuous," she'll appreciate it even if you feel foolish. You can't take a girl out on a number of ambiguous, romantic outings (walks on the beach count, as do one-on-one picnics, dinners where you pick her up and pay, etc) and then three or four outings in finally clue her in. She could have been investing in a romantic idea of you, that now she has to get rid of, and it's easy to feel resentment over that. Or if she's insecure, she could feel like it's something wrong with her. So my advice is to avoid these complications by just doing what everyone else says the very first time you hang out, (and dear god don't tell her she has beautiful eyes or put your arm around her and snuggle.) Just play the "it's great to have chick friends-- you can help me choose a lampshade for my room and I can give you boy advice when you need it." Sends a pretty clear signal, and no hard feelings.
posted by np312 at 4:29 PM on September 1, 2007

do you flirt with them - eg by teasing/mock-insulting them, holding eye contact a little longer than normal with a smile, giving hugs or backrubs, doing small considerate things like remembering something about them

I dunno about the others, but I definitely know guys who've sent the wrong signals by teasing or joking around with girls - the guy would think it'd just be playing around, while the girl took it as a definite sign of interest.

Basically, do you act any differently with her than you would with a guy? If you do, she could very well take that as meaning something more than you intend it to. You may think you just act differently with a platonic female friend than you do with a male buddy, but she may think that's significant.

And yes, "playing hard to get", whether it's on purpose or not, is very often a turn-on for either sex. If you hint or are indirect about what you want, it'll probably come across as "mixed signals", so if you're sure about what you want, just be completely clear with the people you're meeting.

As people above have said, practice saying exactly what you mean, and be ready to honestly be unglamourous and unintriguing - not dressing up or concerning yourself with how you look, being comfortable being rude in her presence, etc. Make sure you're not secretly checking to see if she'll fall for you, even though you don't want to deal with the consequences, just for the thrill of the game so to speak. In other words, make sure there's not a part of your brain that is sending mixed signals...
posted by mdn at 5:05 PM on September 1, 2007

We all want what we can't have. Telling the girls you are not interested just makes them interested that much more. Either don't tell them that, or even better, act like you are really into them and that will turn them right away.
posted by Bob Dobbs at 7:18 PM on September 1, 2007 [1 favorite has favorites]

Seconding: pick your nose.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:06 PM on September 1, 2007

Thanks to everyone who commented! A (mostly) serious, compassionate, and brutally honest advice that is characteristically MeFi. I think I can glean from this some additional insight about the pattern and a plan of action.

An additional point: I realized after reading all the posts the full extent of my naivety, but I don't think that I'm entirely to blame...it's an issue of perspective. From my non-romantic, non-sexual perspective, there's nothing odd about going to the beach together or being considerate or innocent teasing or whatever (again, I am careful about anything intimate or date-like)...Beyond the obvious, it's just not in my thinking at all. From another perspective, these could be subtle signs or at least mixed signals or ambiguities. I gotta accept this fact about the assumptions about the two sexes and make things dead clear as soon as possible. The best posts gave me some credit and showed some understanding about how insanely awkward and difficult it is for me (remember, timid, kind of self-conscious), to just say, "Hello potential friend, I suspect that you're getting a crush on me, but I have no interest in having sex with you!" My favorite post is below (special thanks Bingo!).

**Bingo You don't go to the beach twice with a girl you're not interested in, without making your lack of interest clear...Going to the beach, you see, is a signal.

Shit.

Fortunately for you, sending signals of disinterest is easy. Practice the following phrases, and then work them into conversation early in your non-relationships:
• "I'm completely uninterested in sex with anyone at this point."
• "What I really want from women at this point in my life is frienship."
• "It's really great to have you as a friend." The great thing is, that when a girl is interested in a guy, she very often asks questions and makes statements that leave easy openings to say this kind of stuff...so they will pick up your "not interested" signals...

Hurray!

Unfortunately, after you reject someone, even very indirectly, they may not want to be your friend. They may think that, as the cliche goes, they have enough friends already, and would rather not be friends with a guy who they are attracted to but who isn't interested in them. And you have to just deal with that.

Shit.

Shit....I think this is a really important point. I think that, if only subconsciously, I have at times let the fear of losing a potential friend prevent me from being as clear as is clearly necessary. The fear combined with the awkwardness of the matter and my timidity, led to a protraction, then an inability to deal with the thing head on, and so, cause and effect, karmic consequence, you get tragedy. Bingo, the whole post is loaded with good advice, thanks!

**colgate I have the opposite problem. Apparently I am skilled at signaling platonic intent. If I knew why, I would tell you (and date more). Could you describe how you interact with these women when you meet them and spend time with them?

Heh well you can email me. Maybe someone could benefit from this mess.

**thinkingwoman: if you're physically affectionate, you'll probably want to tone it down. try not to do "date" things like paying for her or picking her up

I avoid signs of physical affection and am cautious about non-physical affection. I am careful about "date things." At least what I consider to be clearly "date things." Apparantly going to the beach is also a date thing which simply blows.

you might also try finding an lgbt support group in your area--although you don't fit into any of those boxes, asexuality is non-standard expression of sexuality, and it might be nice to hang out around people who can relate.

Interesting. Maybe..

geoff: I found with platonic relationships, it helps to talk about dating other people or other relationships. As in that sends clear signals that you like her as a friend (or vice versa) and don't want to take it anywhere.

I think you're probably right. Somehow I just don't feel much like talking about that. I had a girl start telling me about this guy at work she thought "was a total stud, like a cagefighter or something," and I was just kind of disgusted and completely uninterested in going any further with that discussion. I was just like, "Yeah well, you should go for it I guess ," I wasn't jealous or whatever, just not my cup of tea and made me feel like her girlfriend...I mean, maybe she was testing the waters or something so I had some kind of opening there, but there is a difference between being a platonic male friend and being a girlfriend. If I'm not interested in the "girl talk" and I'm not pursuing any romances to relate, I'm not sure where the talking about relationships comes in to play in my case. Though it makes good sense...

If she's attracted to you, do not do date things. Do not have dinner and then a show. Meet up with friends...

I avoid date things. I don't really like hanging out with crowds and don't know lots of people, but I could try it I guess. I prefer the one-on-one thing but yeah I could see how especially early on it could lead to trouble.

Some people cannot have platonic friendships. Move on, and don't drag her along if you know the only reason she's talking to you is the chance at a romantic relationship..Though to be honest, I have a feeling the problem might be you. Unless you're a soap opera hunk, I doubt these women are throwing themselves on you.

I suspect the problem might be me as well, and I think with your help, MeFi, I am sort of figuring it out. I don't know how the "soap opera hunk" thing fits in...I think I can be quite physically attractive when I take care of my appearance, but I often don't. This is going to sound weird but I've actually thought to myself, "maybe the BO will help send the signal!" Not that I made myself sloppy on purpose but I wouldn't make myself unsloppy on purpose either. I don't shave or trim my beard as often as I should, I don't always cut my hair on time, sometimes I skip shower days, yet here I am asking your advice for this backwards-sounding problem! So what does that mean? I don't know. But I gotta figure out how I'm fucking up over and over here and what to do, and I think I'm getting there.

The key is to ask yourself, "Would I be doing this with guy friends?" or "Would I treat a guy friend the same way?", and if the answer is "no", you shouldn't be doing it.

Geoff I have a huge problem with that proposition! I do think that one needs to be careful about ambiguities and mixed signals and so on, but I don't think the benchmark should be how I relate to guy friends. I don't even have guy friends I see often so I'm not even entirely sure what that benchmark might be...my two male friends have been several states away for years and I see them infrequently. I think the reason I connect more with girls is because I can relate differently towards them than towards guys. I don't mean flirting or whatever, but I think there is a difference between male-male platonic friendship and male-female platonic friendship, just like there is a difference between being a male-female platonic friend and being a girlfriend (i.e. I don't necessarily want to hear about the "cagefighter stud at work"). So, I take the warnings about being date-like to heart, and believe me, I'm already careful, but I don't agree with your proposition or at least how you put it.

LobsterMitten: In your normal routine of becoming friends with someone, do you flirt with them - eg by teasing/mock-insulting them, holding eye contact a little longer than normal with a smile, giving hugs or backrubs, doing small considerate things like remembering something about them ("I picked this restaurant because you said the other day you love shrimp")? I have known two other people who had this problem of always having friends think they wanted lovin, and in both cases this was the problem. They were flirting without realizing it.

Shit. Well there's the thing, aside from the hugs and backrubs thing, I might do those things sometimes and it really is just how I am with people one-on-one! Do I think I'm flirting? Absolutely not. Does she? I don't know, maybe. It's probably naivety here, but isn't it all about context and intent? None of those things would be considered flirting if I was with my sister, right? But I guess I gotta deal with the fact of the two sexes and change how I would instinctively act. Though maybe less so if I can just make my intent clearer and sooner, thus changing the context...

**fourcheesemac The "wrong" signals might include revealing the truth. Telling the truth -- that you aren't like most men and don't want to have sex with them -- may be your problem.

I hope you're wrong, because if you're right, I am more fucked than I even realized (no pun intended).

Alternately, you could seem *only* interested in that, in which case every woman you know will be eager to be "just friends" with you. Maybe develop a pretend porn addiction or something.

Hah amusing thought, but...

Or try making male friends. It should be easy as you would be an excellent if not perfect wingman.

It just doesn't happen much.

**headspace Don't touch her back when you cross the street. Don't hold her hand, don't engage in cuddling or hugging. Don't kiss her on the cheek, don't pretend to kiss her hand. Don't put your arm around her shoulders, don't lean your head close to hers to talk to her while watching tv or movies. Don't massage her shoulders, and don't let her massage yours. If you feel you must compliment her, do so generically- "I like that shirt" not "I like that shirt on you." Don't stand closer to her than you would your dad. Don't buy her any-occasion gifts, don't send her things because you were thinking of her, or they reminded you of her. Call occasionally, not often. Don't go out more than once or twice a month with her, and when you do go, go early in the day and go dutch.

The whole matter is really much more subtle than that. I don't really do any of those things even though I sometimes wish I was free to do so.

Go places in groups...Always drive separately. Don't go back to her apartment; don't invite her to yours.

If you can't visit a friend at home, it's kind of a bankrupt friendship isn't it? In this case we both live in communal type housing so I'm sure it's fine. I like the driving separately idea. I don't care for groups but it may be necessary, especially at first I suppose.

And if the subject comes up anyway, tell her you're not interested in dating, not particularly sexual, and you just want a friend.

Again the whole thing is more subtle. The subject never seems to actually "come up," though I think I need to take Bingo's advice and be more watchful of girls "testing the waters." What usually happens is this ambiguity arises and turns into a kind of stalemate where I guess she is not sure of my intent and I am not completely sure that she is not sure, at least not sure enough to overcome my timidity and the awkwardness of the matter and put it bluntly. I actually did so last time but it was in email and txt and maybe came too late...

**missmagenta Spending a lot of time 1 on 1 with the same girl, of course there's going to be mixed signals and sexual tension, even if you're not remotely interested.

Shit.

Your problem seems quite clear from what I'm inferring from your post. If you want to have female friends you need to have a lot of them simultaneously and spend time with them together.

It's not quite clear, because having a lot of female friends and spending time with them together is rather out of the question. I don't make friends easily, so, "a lot simultaneously" isn't really an option, and I've been trying to explain that there is a difference between being a male platonic friend and being a girlfriend...If it is me and a lot of girls, well, the hormone ratio of the group is just way imbalanced...I am not interested and don't feel comfortable in taking part in girl talk...

**melissam I work with the nerd type and meet a lot of guys like you. A lot of them just say it up front or talk about being asexual or "partly asexual." Or they have such on their facebook/myspace. Send an open signal.

The open signal is good advice. I just gotta figure out how to do it. It's awkward and makes me feel weird and pathological and I don't feel comfortable talking about it..

**Lyn Never You can be timid and continue to get mired in unhappy situations or you can be straightforward and save yourself a lot of grief.

I know. But it is hard.

...you will find minds with which you can become closer friends platonically, but you have to let the others sift out first.

Shit. (That means you are 100% right). A number of people said something similar, that I can't assume that it will work with everyone. I just gotta suck it up in that respect and consider that from the get-go.

**hexatron Pick your nose.,,, Remember these snappy answers: What's your favorite color? Gray What kind of music do you like? I don't like music much.

Hexatron, the weird thing is that I occasionally do pick my nose (though not in public), I think my favorite color might indeed be gray, and at least periodically I find that I don't like music much! This thing about music was actually a sore point with my last girlfriend....Maybe you've stumbled upon the correlating symptoms of a new psychological condition :)

**np312: ...the key is to let her know from the start what type of relationship you're forming...She could have been investing in a romantic idea of you, that now she has to get rid of, and it's easy to feel resentment over that. Or if she's insecure, she could feel like it's something wrong with her.

That makes sense.

So my advice is to avoid these complications by just doing what everyone else says the very first time you hang out...Sends a pretty clear signal, and no hard feelings.

Christ the first time we hang out? I mean it makes sense, perfect sense, but that would be really hard for me to do. I mean, I see the necessity of it but Christ...I guess I just have to get good at working it in so it's not so blunt and awkward that I can't manage it but is not ambiguous and is clear enough for her to pick up.

**mdn Basically, do you act any differently with her than you would with a guy? If you do, she could very well take that as meaning something more than you intend it to. You may think you just act differently with a platonic female friend than you do with a male buddy, but she may think that's significant.

I get where you're coming from but I have to disagree again. I don't think how I would act with a guy is a fair or appropriate standard. She is not a guy. I know I have to be cautious about doing anything date-like or flirting, but I don't think the guy thing is a fair standard.

Make sure you're not secretly checking to see if she'll fall for you, even though you don't want to deal with the consequences, just for the thrill of the game so to speak. In other words, make sure there's not a part of your brain that is sending mixed signals...

Wow yah, I don't think I do this, but I know I have to be watchful of it. I mean, maybe like a tiny part of my brain has given me impulses in this regard but I don't think I follow them. I think if anything is contributing to the ambiguity on my part its the timidity and fear of awkwardness (which of course ensues anyway) and fear that she will think I'm an ass or just decide she isn't into the friendship thing.

Thanks again to everyone! If only to make clear and confirm what I've suspected, MeFi helps again.
posted by consilium at 12:36 AM on September 2, 2007

Heck, you're not even off the front page -- you can't wrap it up yet! Here are some additional thoughts.

--Perhaps you could be friends with gay women?

--Regarding this:
...avoid these complications by just doing what everyone else says the very first time you hang out...

Christ the first time we hang out? I mean it makes sense, perfect sense, but that would be really hard for me to do.
If you do it early enough, it might actually be less awkward. That is, it sounds like some of the awkwardness is that you fear insinuating that you think she likes-you likes you, when maybe she just likes you. So, if you do it before you've hung out enough for her to think that's what you're insinuating, it may be easier. It depersonalizes it -- the earlier you do it, the less she can take it to be about her in particular. It's just a little informational newsflash about you.

--Make sure she knows that you'd be bold enough to tell her if you ever were to become romantically interested in her. That way, she can't get caught up in the tantalizing maybes. If there's no chance that the guy's interested, it cuts short the spooling out of romantic hopes.
posted by daisyace at 4:34 AM on September 2, 2007

Becoming friends with lesbians would be perfect. I don't know how many will buy the "asexual straight guy" story, but at least you know they won't hit on you.

Or, have a "wingman" of your own - someone who will pull the girl in question aside and tell her not to bother. It will be easier coming from a third party, although if she suspects the wingman has any reason to lie (interest in her of his own), there will be drama. I guess the answer there is to get a gay wingman.
posted by desjardins at 9:01 AM on September 2, 2007

I think that, if only subconsciously, I have at times let the fear of losing a potential friend prevent me from being as clear as is clearly necessary.

Remember that a lot of girls are actively looking for a boyfriend. Remember that these girls in your life have probably been approached by other guys, who are interested in something more than friendship. These other guys might be getting rejected because the girls are holding out for you. That's not cool, and you're not being a good friend by letting it happen.

I had a girl start telling me about this guy at work she thought was a total stud... I was just kind of disgusted..maybe she was testing the waters...but there is a difference between being a platonic male friend and being a girlfriend.

Sorry, but being a platonic male friend means that you hear about the guys your female friends are interested in. Part of their motivation to be friends with you to begin with is to get "a guy's point of view."

You have to ask yourself what you really want. I don't think it's friendship. Allow me to go out on a limb and suggest that what you want is:

A girlfriend whom you don't have to actually get physical with.

There are girls out there who are looking for a guys like that, i.e. they want a boyfriend whom they don't have to actually get physical with. But it's not the majority.

Whether that particular theory is right or not, you still need to figure out what it is that you actually want. Your focus should not be on how to avoid breaking other people's hearts, it should be on how to fill your own.
posted by bingo at 9:03 AM on September 2, 2007 [3 favorites has favorites]

(cue angelic choir)
posted by bingo at 9:29 AM on September 2, 2007

Bingo. I think you might be ridiculously right again. I mean, disturbingly right. But there's been an important development...and I can finally follow some of the advice here about being straight-forward. And I have to thank Aven yet again, somewhere where maybe people are more likely to see it.

After that reply post, well I sat following some links from other MeFi posts or just Googled or something, and I had an incredible revelation about myself. I mean, like earth-shattering...I mean...Christ. And I broke the news to the Platonic friend in question in the post. She just happened to wake up at like 5am and go online. We chatted in gmail (me sporadically in tears) and then she invited me over and we talked about it at length over cereal...who knows what will happen, anything is fine. I can't be touched by any of this, the roots of it or these often awkward karmic consequences, ever again.

I'm going to paste it right into here but it is damn long so I don't know if that's a good idea. Here goes though, maybe someone who reads it will find it helpful.

[Folks this is a tricky and subtle and controversial kind of issue relating to maybe 2% of the population...please don't jump on anything without considering it for a minute with an open mind.]

"Asexual: A person who does not experience sexual attraction."

Something interesting happened to me last night. I was sitting outside the library. I loaded a webpage and read the subhead. Something in me moved a little, it felt...odd...almost like if you felt an itch but somewhere deep inside your chest cavity. I read a few of the forum posts...some of them were intriguing, some of them...weird, vaguely disturbing. The itch lessened. I looked further and read the FAQ.

Only you can know if you're asexual or not. Do you experience sexual attraction toward other people? Are you making choices to not act upon urges or do you lack them entirely?"

The weird "itch" returned.

What if it's a phase? What if it is? That doesn't stop you being asexual right now. It may be tempting to hold back on accepting your asexuality in the hope that eventually you'll 'bloom' into a sexual person. I'm not saying that might not eventually happen, but consider this: do you want to spend your life thinking of yourself as an undeveloped person, living for the dreamed of day when you'll become whole? Might you feel more comfortable accepting who you are now as a whole complete valid person?...There's no shame in identifying as one thing and then later identifying as another.

I heard this weird gasping that echoed a bit off the library walls. I got up and walked to my car. I started crying then laughing uncontrollably to the point of tears, then crying a bit, then laughing again. My whole paradigm regarding one of the major if not the most troubling sore points in my life changed...from an unacceptable pathology (I'm a 24 year-old straight male, who's ever heard of low or no sex drive at this age? In a guy? At his sexual peak?) to just the bare fact that this is what is here at the present moment.

I have been in a few serious, amazing relationships with amazing girls, but sex has always been odd, from the very beginning. I was almost always completely uninterested in intercourse. Some other sexual issues came and went and it became clear that they all related to the intensity and authenticity of my sexual desire, which varied greatly. It was there, sometimes, but never even close to the level of my partners. And sometimes it simply was not there at all. About a year ago, it was like something snapped in me, and there was just no sexual desire AT ALL. I mean no impulse to do anything, by myself, with girls, nothing. It broke (sort of) for a few months when a platonic friendship started getting weird and I sort of reluctantly and with much trepidation got into another relationship. By this point I had finally at least accepted that it was true, although I didn't like it, and I told this girl up front that I had zero sexual desire at the moment and have had low desire and issues with sex as far back as I could remember. We took things kind of slow and she said she wanted me to actually want it and didn't care when we actually had sex, even if it was 10 years out, but that was obviously not true. We fooled around...I tried stuff like supplements and herbs and exercise and professional hypnotherapy and hypnosis...I momentarily considered if maybe I was gay, I mean what else is there right? But I have never been attracted to guys or had any interest in experimenting with that. The thing just was what it was, and we erroneously thought we could make us work regardless. But we didn't, and sex was one of the reasons (again).

A few months later and here I was yet again, with no sexual desire at all, and another Platonic relationship threatening sexual weirdness. I started poking around the internet for advice about asexual friendships and found some. Then I found the Avet page and almost instantly, in just a moment or two, the absolute hell, the miserable pit I have been mired in for 7 years, all because of my grey-A and sometimes full asexuality, changed completely. In a mess of jumbled tears - compassion, mirth, relief...

I stayed up the rest of the night trying to figure stuff out in my head.

I guess I look at asexuality exactly like I look at the lack of appetite I've been experiencing lately (don't worry, it's not related to any serious physical condition). It seems that lately I simply don't experience hunger. That doesn't mean I can't or don't eat. I do. Just for different reasons than most people. Sometimes I eat because I figure I should, for the sake of my body. Sometimes I eat out of fear of what will happen if I don't. Sometimes I eat because I'm with someone and that's simply what they're expecting of me. Sometimes I eat because I'm at a social function, and it's what society expects! Sometimes I eat because someone has prepared a great meal for me and I know it will please them...I am joyful to eat to show my appreciation for them and because it makes them visibly happy.

Sometimes I eat because I am nervous or anxious. Sometimes I eat too much or too fast or unconsciously, or don't eat what I intended and I feel like I have betrayed myself, made myself sick, and I regret it over and over and over, maybe for days. Sometimes I can't seem to enjoy food at all and it is just mechanical. Occasionally, even though I am not fully experiencing the tension of hunger and the release and satiety of fullness, I can still taste the food and enjoy it, even tremendously so! Sometimes it seems a sliver of something like an appetite slips in, and I try to jump on the moment, lest it get away from me (often it does).

Sometimes I desire the *associations* I've formed with food, the feeling of being OK, healthy, normal, the social acceptance, the personal intimacy of sharing a meal with someone, the special happiness of making someone else happy by eating what they've prepared, sometimes I even desire the taste, I follow the memory, sometimes true, sometimes fabricated, of eating a really great meal and loving it. But though I may have any or some or none of these desires, the fact remains that 99.9% of the time I have absolutely no friggin appetite! When I eat, it is not like when people with large, or modest, or even slight appetites do so...it doesn't have the same motivation or quality to it at all. And sometimes it can be downright disturbing to be nibbling on something while your lunch date is ravenously scarfing something down...seeing the raw desire of the act in another without it mirrored in yourself, well, it can be unnerving.

All of this is a heck of a lot like sex. Except that if I don't eat I will eventually starve, but nothing bad needs to happen to me whatsoever if I don't have sex with anyone - it's quite a natural thing not to do, really, if I
simply lack the desire! I don't have to feel pathological, I don't have to feel messed up, ashamed, guilty, confused, hopeless...I don't even have to miss out on romance or intimacy if that's what I want in my life. After all, although the lack of sexual desire is considered an "intimacy problem," that is a complete misnomer. I do not have intimacy problems. In fact, I am *great* with intimacy, I just don't have the slightest natural desire to have sex right now, and certainly no desire of any kind to engage in penetrative sex. I am a really wonderful and caring lover, and I could fully enjoy intellectual, emotional, spiritual, and, yes, physical intimacy, as long as the girl understood the nature of my partial or grey or complete asexuality, the generally low, and currently simply *absent* sexual drive. If that is understood, there is absolutely no intimacy problem imaginable. If that is not understood or it is difficult for my potential partner, then there is still absolutely no intimacy problem anywhere to be found...after all, I cannot be intimate with everyone, I don't even desire a close connection with everyone....human beings are not universally compatible on an intellectual or emotional or spiritual level, so why should we expect ourselves to be universally compatible on a hormonal/physical/sexual level?

Are some of us on the fringes, statistically speaking? Does it matter?

After reading the forums and people's different reports...I completely respect the present level of everyone's sexual desire. If it is astronomical, as long as it is not harming anyone and you don't feel it is interfering significantly with the rest of your life, that is great, it's fine. If you have absolutely no sexual desire whatsoever, and don't even feel drawn to certain levels of touch and extended kissing, that is perfectly fine for you, if you accept that as such. If you are like me and you find yourself shifting from extremes to something in between...if you generally have low and sometimes no sexual desire, but can periodically enjoy certain sexual activity, maybe you can genuinely enjoy "making out," maybe you do something for the joy of pleasing your partner, maybe you can engage sex only in a safe and loving or playful way, maybe you do and like some things and simply don't do others, finding the natural boundaries to your asexuality and going with them instead of raging against them, well I've just now come to realize that that's perfectly alright!

So what has really changed? I mean, in a sense nothing has really changed at all - yet, as all the spiritual enlightenment teachers say, everything is the same at the same time as everything changes. I am not rejecting sex of any kind to any degree for any kind of extended time frame. I am accepting that at this present moment, at this point in my life, I have no sexual desire and am asexual. I am also accepting that when I look back at my life, I can see basically the past 7 years in a grey-A light, and the last 13 months as almost completely asexual. I don't understand it (is it hormones? something psycho-dynamic? some kind of learned self-preservation?), I don't understand it any more than I understand my temporary loss of appetite. But why should I expect to? We experience this world in the framework of an extremely complicated body-mind apparatus...I have tried to fiddle with it, I have tried to adjust it, pry it apart in desperation and change the things that make it tick the way it does. I have tried and failed to find the "fix" inside the body or in the subconscious of the mind, the most complex manifestation in the known universe. But it remains what it is. I am ready to accept that. I'm sure change is possible, today is pudding proof that we can change in ways we don't anticipate. But right now it is what it is, and I'm perfectly fine with that. I feel no need to screw with it or fight with it any longer...it has caused way too much pain in the past...pain that was mostly self-inflicted and so clearly unnecessary!

Imagine if I fought with and berated myself over the loss of my appetite for food. Imagine if I felt the deepest shame before and after almost all of my meals. Imagine if I couldn't look the person sharing my table in the eye, couldn't even fully admit to myself the reality of the moment, gripped by a formless dread and self-loathing. Nearly every meal, constantly, needlessly, waging this internal war. Trying this and that to fix myself. I am writing this at a Panera right now, there are people with appetites all around me scarfing down and fully enjoying sandwiches and soups and fresh baked buns. I can't remember the last meal when I was really hungry. This time, I'm just drinking water and browsing the internet. I am completely unaffected by my lack of hunger and the lack of its usual consequences. Maybe tomorrow I will wake up famished and have a euphoric breakfast. Maybe tomorrow I will
wake up craving sex, and maybe I will choose to follow that. Well, then tomorrow I would no longer be asexual, another chapter turned. I am not committed to anything, no dogma or prescription about sex, no label even. The only thing that has changed between today and yesterday, disappeared almost the instant the Aven front page finished loading, is the constant warfare with myself, sometimes receding into the background, weighing me down as another Platonic relationship became charged with sexual ambiguity, sometimes, in the loaded dramatic moments before or during or after sex, screaming so loud that it felt like my soul was being ripped to shreds...the only times I have ever experienced anything approaching a suicidal thought.

However I may find this body-mind tomorrow, at least this type of internal warfare, this chapter of my misery, can no longer touch me. Whether tomorrow I find myself "asexual identified" or not, I know the simple, familiar word is an odd and potent bit of alchemy...it has allowed an equanimity that seemed completely impossible before it appeared...it has spurred in me an unanticipated change for the better. I have to thank Aven. Thank you.

posted by consilium at 12:05 PM on September 2, 2007

Consciously attempt to befriend lesbians.
posted by sondrialiac at 1:14 PM on September 3, 2007

Sometimes I eat too much or too fast or unconsciously, or don't eat what I intended and I feel like I have betrayed myself, made myself sick, and I regret it over and over and over, maybe for days. Sometimes I can't seem to enjoy food at all and it is just mechanical....

Sometimes I eat because I'm at a social function, and it's what society expects!

... as another Platonic relationship became charged with sexual ambiguity, sometimes, in the loaded dramatic moments before or during or after sex, screaming so loud that it felt like my soul was being ripped to shreds.

Ouch... If you see sex and eating as things expected of you in such terms, no wonder you feel no desire for them. We can only desire what we feel as pleasure for our own sake first, not just to please others.

Lack of sex drive plus lack of appetite, especially in the terms you describe, with all those feelings of pressure from outside and conflict within yourself, well, doesn't sound like a good sign, and I wouldn't trust an internet website to give you the key to your happiness just by telling you it's all ok.

You can still accept yourself and at the same time work at being happier with yourself, you know?

The way you feel doesn't have to be some serious pathology but that doesn't mean it should go unexamined.

You shouldn't be scared at that possibility, you're not living in some soviet like dictatorship where doctors put away people just by labelling them as pathological because they don't fit some social standard. We're not talking wearing eccentric clothing and hair styles or being a political dissident here. We're talking eating and sexuality, levels of appetite and sex drive, and how we handle them, these are the first biggest signals of our state of health, physical and psychological, but they're just a signal. You can't look at them in isolation.

The issue is not how much you 'should' fit into some social standard of what's expected of you, or feel shame if you don't; it's how much all this conflict about food and sex has made you unhappy and worried, and interfered with your relationship with others. All this won't go away magically just because you tell yourself it's all fine and dandy. Sorry.

You're not doing yourself any favours if you discard outright the opportunity of seeking professional medical advice on this, rather than listening to random strangers on the internet (me included of course... ).

If you were a friend of mine, this is what I'd say because I'd be worried about you, even if I run the risk of sounding patronising.
posted by pleeker at 1:51 PM on September 3, 2007

You know, you may very well be asexual.

You also could be suffering from hormonal problems. Why not go see a doctor and check?

For the record, I had a good friend years ago (male ) who was asexual. He was totally normal and a good friend. He really wasn't sure what he was (this was late 70"s so asexuality was not commonly talked about) -he didn't really think he was gay but he didn't really think he was straight either.

Anyway, go get a good checkup (and be honest with your doc.) That way if something is medically wrong you can have it taken care of-and if nothing is medically wrong you can simply accept yourself as is.
posted by konolia at 5:44 PM on September 3, 2007

pleeker and konolia

I appreciate your feedback. But pleeker, you so completely misinterpreted much of my post. And a number of other things.

"Lack of sex drive plus lack of appetite...well, doesn't sound like a good sign...these are the first biggest signals of our state of health."

I knew someone would do that...I mentioned and maybe exaggerated the food appetite thing to serve as a metaphor. Or I guess simile. I haven't really had much of an appetite lately, that's true. We're talking about a relatively short period of time here....whereas my asexuality, in some form, goes back to start of it all - it's now evident to me as far back as Junior High school, going back actually much longer than the 7 years I originally talked about....and it has been with me in all that time, when I've been in various, often great states of physical and mental fitness .

We can only desire what we feel as pleasure for our own sake first

This could multiply a misunderstanding, a confusion wrongly merging *natural* desire (like an appetite for food or a sex drive) and pleasure. I have gotten and can receive pleasure from sex in my partly asexual mode, even selfish pleasure, just as I have gotten and can receive pleasure from food, despite having no appetite at the moment.

This might be seen as a matter of subtleties, but I want to make something clear. As I see it, and many asexual people agree, the only real difference between being sexual and being asexual is that in the latter case you have no natural drive, no *hunger* for having sex with someone. Beyond that, there is a wide range of possibilities, one may even have sex quite regularly and enjoy it, for a number of reasons, curiosity, creating joy in someone else, and yes, even simple pleasure for its own sake. But one could just as easily not do any of that at all, ever, which is not the case when one is sexual and a craving, need, restlessness or tension develops without it (and I'm not judging that one way or another). So it is just false to suggest that my lack of natural desire is related to an inability to feel pleasure for its own sake. The implication is that I lack the desire for sex because I haven't properly experienced the pleasure of sex. The issue is not in pleasure.

The issue is not how much you 'should' fit into some social standard of what's expected of you, or feel shame if you don't; it's how much all this conflict...has made you unhappy and worried, and interfered with your relationship with others. All this won't go away magically just because you tell yourself it's all fine and dandy.

The only reason this has interfered with my relationships was because I had a pathological view of it, didn't recognize or accept or understand it, and thus could not articulate it to myself, let alone to anyone else. I think it affected my relationships deeper than I even first realized...for instance, I think some of my asocial behavior has had to do with an inability to reconcile my asexuality with the blatent sexuality all around me, especially in guys, who I've had the most trouble connecting to since high school (my one male friend, now that I think about it, is probably asexual). Since I can accept who I am in terms of asexuality, I can already sense this changing, simply because I am not comparing and judging myself against an external norm. And I no longer have an antisocial tendency aimed at avoiding the Platonic turned sexual pattern that appeared even despite my reclusiveness. Whereas before I could not even think about talking about this, even obtusely, I just didn't have understanding or the language of it, I have since been able to quite easily explain the whole thing to the Platonic friend in question, and I think this friendship is working out great. In the future, I'll just tell people I'm asexual up front, if they don't get it or think I'm unhealthy, well, their belief system is their problem.

My self-caused troubles surrounding this are truly gone. My only possible source of trouble, and I think I'm getting strong enough to handle this as well, is people like yourself, friend - who, if even very well-intentioned, won't consider the possibility that having no sexual desire doesn't have to be a pathology for some people. From your perspective it is. From mine it isn't. As long as I am asexual, and this might change tomorrow, or it might not, I simply don't care to mess with it any longer or try to change it. Not out of hopelessness or having "given up," but because I simply see no reason to whatsoever. I am not lonely right now, but should I seek a romance, it doesn't have to depend on sex. There are people walking amongst us all the time who feel the exact same way I do. There are great girls in my city, in your city, who have no desire for sex and are not interested in it but want romance. I've read that 66% of asexuals are girls, so, should I seek romance in the asexual scene, I've got those numbers on my side! And I've had no problem repeatedly attracting sexual girls by accident , I think I'll do ok if I actually intentionally look for an asexual girlfriend :)

Let me address something else here. Konolioa,

...go get a good checkup (and be honest with your doc.) That way if something is medically wrong you can have it taken care of-and if nothing is medically wrong you can simply accept yourself as is.

Firstly, I have gone to a doctor and there is no sign of physical illness. Though when I went I came to him quite depressed and anxious largely due to the stress of being in a really dysfunctional relationship with a very very sexual girl. This isn't about being honest with my doctor, this is about being honest with myself and the people close to me.

Secondly, I don't much care for how conventional medicine treats the human body and mind. I don't much care for the way the system is currently over-prescribing pharmaceuticals, especially when so many of them are virtually untested and cause long lists of side effects. Back when I thought my asexuality was a problem, and it really was a problem but only because I was in these dysfunctional relationships, I tried to address it with different kinds of herbs and supplements which I thought were safer than drugs (perhaps wrongly so). And I got nowhere. I also sought professional help from hypnotherapists, and got nowhere. Did I exhaust all my options for treatment? No. Do I want to go through the stress and hassle and expense and possible side-effects of exhausting all my options? You damn well bet I don't.

You haven't opened up your belief system even the slightest bit to the possibility of this not being pathological and not being largely a matter of conformity...and I suggest you reconsider that. Not too long ago, were I to confess to someone that I was having sexual feelings for men instead of women, they would suggest I check my hormone levels and take me to psychologists and psychiatrists and doctors and possibly prescribe pills of various kinds with various kinds of side effects. Maybe they would have even prescribed an exorcism.

I don't need to have my asexuality medicalized and turned into a pathology because I don't have any problem with my asexuality! Not even a trace of it. And I think that is a great benchmark and standard for happiness and the only one I need. I know that I can now finally be up front with girls about the way I am so there is no longer the possibility of platonic/sexual ambiguities....My asexuality currently causes me no dissatisfaction whatsoever, so, thanks anyway for trying to be a good friend, but I don't need help. And not because a website told me so, but because I've come to terms right now with who I am right now. If it changes, it changes! If it doesn't, it doesn't!

Come to think of it, as Bingo put it, in every relationship what I've really wanted was an asexual romance, and now that I've actually given myself a chance to pursue it, and found a number [1] of resources [2] online [3] to [4] do [5] so [6], well, I'm not even sure I want to lose my asexuality before I get to try it out with another person! If only out of curiousity! I am happy being asexually single, and probably should be for a bit while I process all this, but I'm sincerely looking forward to being asexually romantic!

Thanks for the feedback and the good intentions, good luck, wish me the same :)
posted by consilium at 2:05 AM on September 4, 2007