Please kindly take your contradictory book away.
April 2, 2007 12:24 PM Subscribe
What is the best (if any) way to deal with anti-gay Christian protesters on my campus?
So it's Pride Week here at my University, and one can always expect the Christians to roll out with their bible-thumpers shouting in your face, and kumbai-ya-ers singing terrible 2-chord hymns. Is there a good (if any) way to respond or retaliate, or to encourage them to leave? Or should I just lump it like I always do and ignore the hateful diatribe I must listen to on my way from the library to the coffeeshop?
So it's Pride Week here at my University, and one can always expect the Christians to roll out with their bible-thumpers shouting in your face, and kumbai-ya-ers singing terrible 2-chord hymns. Is there a good (if any) way to respond or retaliate, or to encourage them to leave? Or should I just lump it like I always do and ignore the hateful diatribe I must listen to on my way from the library to the coffeeshop?
I thought Kum Bai Ya had three chords.
um anyway, this is probably not the answer you were expecting, but I would suggest that you ignore it, if possible, and resist the temptation to start something. No reason to stoop to that level.
also, I'm Christian. I'm not like that.
posted by kitalea at 12:33 PM on April 2, 2007 [1 favorite]
um anyway, this is probably not the answer you were expecting, but I would suggest that you ignore it, if possible, and resist the temptation to start something. No reason to stoop to that level.
also, I'm Christian. I'm not like that.
posted by kitalea at 12:33 PM on April 2, 2007 [1 favorite]
if they're breaking a campus rule, you can report them to whatever authorities handle that type of thing, but there is NOTHING you can say or do to make them go away of their own accord, and getting ugly is the worst idea possible.
posted by shmegegge at 12:33 PM on April 2, 2007
posted by shmegegge at 12:33 PM on April 2, 2007
Read 1st Amendment. You can ignore it or perhaps you can talk to them honestly. Then perhaps both sides would gain a greater understanding of the other and we can make a step towards tolerance despite disagreement.
posted by pinksoftsoap at 12:37 PM on April 2, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by pinksoftsoap at 12:37 PM on April 2, 2007 [1 favorite]
Does your campus have hate-speech codes? If so, then referring to said codes, and the possible violation of same (or to the relationship between UCRs and enrollment), might help get the authorities' attention.
posted by box at 12:37 PM on April 2, 2007
posted by box at 12:37 PM on April 2, 2007
I'd say to them, "Jesus is love," with the emphasis on the love part.
Yeah, there's really nothing you can say to them. If you acknowlege the loudest and brashiest of any group, they win.
posted by parilous at 12:40 PM on April 2, 2007
Yeah, there's really nothing you can say to them. If you acknowlege the loudest and brashiest of any group, they win.
posted by parilous at 12:40 PM on April 2, 2007
If they aren't breaking any rules, do nothing. Carry on with your life.
You can make and wear a shirt that says "it's okay, I like you even though you're Christian" while you stroll through campus.
pinksoftsoap - I hate to think of it as "sides" because it's not an either/or scenario. Ya know?
posted by FlamingBore at 12:41 PM on April 2, 2007
You can make and wear a shirt that says "it's okay, I like you even though you're Christian" while you stroll through campus.
pinksoftsoap - I hate to think of it as "sides" because it's not an either/or scenario. Ya know?
posted by FlamingBore at 12:41 PM on April 2, 2007
I hate that you have to even face these freaks. Nothing gets me more fired up and angry than these hypocritical holy rollers. And I am a born-again Christian. Main difference between me and them is that I believe the message of the Gospel is to love God and love people. Period. No hating in there.
Thanks for letting me vent. Now, what can you do about these folks? Nothing. They are full of hate and anger and will respond well to nothing. They will not respond to gentle requests to move nor loud yelling back at them. Anything you do will only cause them to spew more crap at you. My advice would be to ignore them and say a prayer that one day they will learn to love and be kind. Or offer them a bottle of water.
21 If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink.
22 In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head, and the LORD will reward you.
posted by orangemiles at 12:41 PM on April 2, 2007 [6 favorites]
Thanks for letting me vent. Now, what can you do about these folks? Nothing. They are full of hate and anger and will respond well to nothing. They will not respond to gentle requests to move nor loud yelling back at them. Anything you do will only cause them to spew more crap at you. My advice would be to ignore them and say a prayer that one day they will learn to love and be kind. Or offer them a bottle of water.
21 If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; if he is thirsty, give him water to drink.
22 In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head, and the LORD will reward you.
posted by orangemiles at 12:41 PM on April 2, 2007 [6 favorites]
Make a tee-shirt that says "Jesus took it up the butt" and walk among them. When they beat you up, sue the pants off'em.
posted by mds35 at 12:42 PM on April 2, 2007 [8 favorites]
posted by mds35 at 12:42 PM on April 2, 2007 [8 favorites]
What pinksoftsoap said. The fact that nobody is arresting you and nobody is arresting them is pretty much the point of America.
It can suck, I agree, but maybe you can work on being as compassionate as they are not being.
posted by roll truck roll at 12:44 PM on April 2, 2007 [2 favorites]
It can suck, I agree, but maybe you can work on being as compassionate as they are not being.
posted by roll truck roll at 12:44 PM on April 2, 2007 [2 favorites]
invite them for a coffee with you; talk like human beings instead of screaming slogans at each other from differents sides of the street.
i've always believed the best way to overcome prejudice is to demonstrate the common threads of humanity that bind us all together. maybe some of them will refuse, but if you can get just one person to join you, it's a small victory with many potential knock-on effects.
posted by modernnomad at 12:58 PM on April 2, 2007
i've always believed the best way to overcome prejudice is to demonstrate the common threads of humanity that bind us all together. maybe some of them will refuse, but if you can get just one person to join you, it's a small victory with many potential knock-on effects.
posted by modernnomad at 12:58 PM on April 2, 2007
Is there a good (if any) way to respond or retaliate
Be nice to them. Also be nice to the people they don't like. There is no reasonable action that will make these people stop and leave you alone. Just conduct yourself as an alternate example of humanity.
posted by thirteenkiller at 1:00 PM on April 2, 2007 [2 favorites]
Be nice to them. Also be nice to the people they don't like. There is no reasonable action that will make these people stop and leave you alone. Just conduct yourself as an alternate example of humanity.
posted by thirteenkiller at 1:00 PM on April 2, 2007 [2 favorites]
You described two very different types of behavior. If they're standing around playing bad music on guitar, ignore it and move on. If someone from this scene tries to engage you, you can respond or not- I probably wouldn't. If they are literally screaming in your face in a way that impedes your moving about, calmly ask them to move out of your way and if they do not respond, call campus security. I agree with those who say getting angry is not constructive in this sort of situation.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:01 PM on April 2, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:01 PM on April 2, 2007 [1 favorite]
These idiots are hypocrites in every part of their lives. They're the ones who show up every sunday and look good, and go home and beat their wives and molest their children (take that with a grain of salt). They are the ones who have to feel superior, and they've chosen religion to do it.
Ignore them. They'll go away in a few days. You could always complain to the university if they start yelling insults or disturbing the peace....
I am a fundamentalist, bible believing, evangelical, born-again follower of Christ (aka a real Christian), and i think these people are morons. They can't figure out that what they are doing is AGAINST the teachings of Christ & the bible. *sigh*
posted by tdreyer1 at 1:03 PM on April 2, 2007
Ignore them. They'll go away in a few days. You could always complain to the university if they start yelling insults or disturbing the peace....
I am a fundamentalist, bible believing, evangelical, born-again follower of Christ (aka a real Christian), and i think these people are morons. They can't figure out that what they are doing is AGAINST the teachings of Christ & the bible. *sigh*
posted by tdreyer1 at 1:03 PM on April 2, 2007
Be nice to them or ignore them.
Also, some two chord hymns are particularly lovely. Many Taize hymns contain but two or three notes.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 1:07 PM on April 2, 2007
Also, some two chord hymns are particularly lovely. Many Taize hymns contain but two or three notes.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 1:07 PM on April 2, 2007
Yurg, protesters. I say ignore them. I've had a few occasions to talk to people who take part in such events of pretty much every political persuasion) and I've never met one who actually puts more time into constructively advancing their cause through quiet diligent thankless work than they do through loud attention getting activity and hanging out with like-minded people in a social/party atmosphere. Protest (on college campuses anyway) is basically a feel-good social experience that lets people play "it's the sixties!" and feel like part of something. I've never ever heard of anyone express the thought "I was really unsure about the matter, but those parent-subsidized lunatics ranting about how everyone who disagrees with them is hitler/satan really enlightened me!" Let em rant and be jerks, if they are hurting anyone it's themselves.
Then again maybe I am biased by the nature of my educational experience. I have two engineering degrees, and engineers are sort of notorious for not being involved in such activities. I remember when I was doing my masters I had to make my way across campus one afternoon through some mob and when I got to class I asked a group of a couple of people what the whole thing was about. The reply actually echoed my thinking perfectly. "Who gives a shit? I'm paying about 150 bucks for each actual class session here and midterms are next week. Don't these people have classes to go to?"
posted by frieze at 1:11 PM on April 2, 2007 [3 favorites]
Then again maybe I am biased by the nature of my educational experience. I have two engineering degrees, and engineers are sort of notorious for not being involved in such activities. I remember when I was doing my masters I had to make my way across campus one afternoon through some mob and when I got to class I asked a group of a couple of people what the whole thing was about. The reply actually echoed my thinking perfectly. "Who gives a shit? I'm paying about 150 bucks for each actual class session here and midterms are next week. Don't these people have classes to go to?"
posted by frieze at 1:11 PM on April 2, 2007 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Start a pledge drive. For every day of Pride Week that the bible-thumpers show up to protest, solicit donations for LAMBDA, PFLAG, the Matthew Shepherd Foundation or your favorite local gay-rights organization. Publicize your pledge drive widely; get your charity of choice involved so they can help you get the word out.
The hate-mongers are free to speak their minds, but let them know that the more often they show up, the more money you'll raise to fight back.
posted by junkbox at 1:20 PM on April 2, 2007 [5 favorites]
The hate-mongers are free to speak their minds, but let them know that the more often they show up, the more money you'll raise to fight back.
posted by junkbox at 1:20 PM on April 2, 2007 [5 favorites]
Better yet, furthering junkbox' suggestion: have the pledges based not only on their being there, but how many of them there are. And make sure they know in advance that for every homophobic bigoted asshole protester that shows up, $X will be donated to the above-mentioned charities.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 1:26 PM on April 2, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 1:26 PM on April 2, 2007 [2 favorites]
This was alluded to above.. Kill them with kindness (bake them cookies!) all the while making it absolutely clear (in a very peaceful way) that you firmly disagree with their opinions. Hate the sin, love the sinner. You know?
(And I too am a Christian who believes that this kind of hateful crap is not Christian at all)
posted by tippiedog at 1:34 PM on April 2, 2007
(And I too am a Christian who believes that this kind of hateful crap is not Christian at all)
posted by tippiedog at 1:34 PM on April 2, 2007
Isaac Davis: Has anybody read that Nazis are gonna march in New Jersey? Y'know, I read this in the newspaper. We should go down there, get some guys together, y'know, get some bricks and baseball bats and really explain things to them.
Party Guest: There is this devastating satirical piece on that on the Op Ed page of the Times, it is devastating.
Isaac Davis: Well, a satirical piece in the Times is one thing, but bricks and baseball bats really gets right to the point.
posted by geoff. at 1:36 PM on April 2, 2007 [1 favorite]
Party Guest: There is this devastating satirical piece on that on the Op Ed page of the Times, it is devastating.
Isaac Davis: Well, a satirical piece in the Times is one thing, but bricks and baseball bats really gets right to the point.
posted by geoff. at 1:36 PM on April 2, 2007 [1 favorite]
walk past them with your head high, make eye contact, whatever. don't let them know it's bothering you.
then try to get your school to start running the Positive Space Campaign (one school's example).
posted by gursky at 1:40 PM on April 2, 2007
then try to get your school to start running the Positive Space Campaign (one school's example).
posted by gursky at 1:40 PM on April 2, 2007
Two things: letters to the editor of your campus paper-- whether they publish them will give some indication if your administration covertly approves of the gay-bashing or not, among other benefits-- and more important, extensive photographs of the hate-mongers which are then posted to a website, with an edited comments page where attempts to identify each and every one of them are encouraged. If they turn out to be from a church in your area, a little Sunday field trip with signs and flyers might be a memorable experience for all concerned.
posted by jamjam at 1:43 PM on April 2, 2007
posted by jamjam at 1:43 PM on April 2, 2007
Start a pledge drive...
...have the pledges based not only on their being there, but how many of them there are...
LOVE this idea.
posted by desuetude at 1:47 PM on April 2, 2007
...have the pledges based not only on their being there, but how many of them there are...
LOVE this idea.
posted by desuetude at 1:47 PM on April 2, 2007
Forgive them. They know not what they do.
posted by Alt F4 at 1:54 PM on April 2, 2007 [4 favorites]
posted by Alt F4 at 1:54 PM on April 2, 2007 [4 favorites]
As long as they don't impede your walking from one place to another (they're not jumping out in front of you or getting in your face), ignore them. They may not go away, but just remember that whenever you give a lunatic an audience, you legitimize them in the eyes of others who may be watching.
If they are getting up in your face, to the point where you feel physically threatened, complain to campus security and/or the police; depending on what they're doing, it may be assault.
You don't have the right to censor them, regardless of how repugnant you find their message. However, they don't have the right to threaten you, so just ignore them and keep walking -- be content in the knowledge that you're right, and they're stupid.
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:59 PM on April 2, 2007
If they are getting up in your face, to the point where you feel physically threatened, complain to campus security and/or the police; depending on what they're doing, it may be assault.
You don't have the right to censor them, regardless of how repugnant you find their message. However, they don't have the right to threaten you, so just ignore them and keep walking -- be content in the knowledge that you're right, and they're stupid.
posted by Kadin2048 at 1:59 PM on April 2, 2007
You could ignore them as has been suggested, or you could have some fun.
In my glorious college days many preachers gathered at a big green space on campus. One day I brought a red rubber ball and with a few friends just started playing kickball right in the vicinity of the preachers. We got a bigger crowd and eventually one of the preachers joined our game. Fun for everyone!
I heard, but can't confirm, that another year in the same spot someone set up a tent next to the preacher and had themselves some loud sex, thus succeeding in scaring off the preachers. I highly recommend going for that one.
posted by look busy at 2:02 PM on April 2, 2007
In my glorious college days many preachers gathered at a big green space on campus. One day I brought a red rubber ball and with a few friends just started playing kickball right in the vicinity of the preachers. We got a bigger crowd and eventually one of the preachers joined our game. Fun for everyone!
I heard, but can't confirm, that another year in the same spot someone set up a tent next to the preacher and had themselves some loud sex, thus succeeding in scaring off the preachers. I highly recommend going for that one.
posted by look busy at 2:02 PM on April 2, 2007
If your university has hate-speech laws, they may not apply to anti-gay religious protesters. Some universities ended up repealing their bans, because of legal pressure from religious groups.
The pledge drive and killing-with-kindness ideas are both good, but probably mutually exclusive. I doubt they'd sit down for coffee with you, if you've been out raising money to counter their "cause".
If you don't want to be constructive, and just want to call them out on their hypocrisy in a viscerally satisfying way... you could go around handing out popcorn shrimp, wait for them to eat (mmm popcorn shrimp), and then hand out pamphlets listing other biblical restrictions from Leviticus - such as shrimp being an abomination unto the lord.
posted by CKmtl at 2:03 PM on April 2, 2007
The pledge drive and killing-with-kindness ideas are both good, but probably mutually exclusive. I doubt they'd sit down for coffee with you, if you've been out raising money to counter their "cause".
If you don't want to be constructive, and just want to call them out on their hypocrisy in a viscerally satisfying way... you could go around handing out popcorn shrimp, wait for them to eat (mmm popcorn shrimp), and then hand out pamphlets listing other biblical restrictions from Leviticus - such as shrimp being an abomination unto the lord.
posted by CKmtl at 2:03 PM on April 2, 2007
You need some anti-Christian gay protesters, clearly.
No. There's nothing wrong with actual Christians. What the poster's asking about are idiots.
posted by kmennie at 2:13 PM on April 2, 2007
No. There's nothing wrong with actual Christians. What the poster's asking about are idiots.
posted by kmennie at 2:13 PM on April 2, 2007
Not just religious groups, CKmti. Hate speech laws are about as scary as it gets.
posted by roll truck roll at 2:18 PM on April 2, 2007
posted by roll truck roll at 2:18 PM on April 2, 2007
Fight them on their own terms. See the God Hates Shrimp website for a perfect example. Ask them if they believe that the bible is literal truth, and then come back at them with relevant sins from the bible. Any of you guys wearing polyester? Which of my daughters should I sell into slavery first? Here's another site with some biblical bizarrities.
Stage a satirical counter-protest, if you have some good friends and some free time.
posted by chrisamiller at 2:24 PM on April 2, 2007
Stage a satirical counter-protest, if you have some good friends and some free time.
posted by chrisamiller at 2:24 PM on April 2, 2007
Have some fun! Water balloon fights, stink bombs, boom boxes blasting 2 Live Crew, scantily clad boys and girls, public fornication, gay icon idolatry, cookies with pro gay messages written ion them. Drown their hate with happy, we're all going to hell goodness!
posted by brautigan at 2:34 PM on April 2, 2007
posted by brautigan at 2:34 PM on April 2, 2007
I must side mostly with the "ignore them" crowd, as long as they don't get too confrontational or povoking in their behavior. At the closing of the Gay Games in Chicago last summer, there were Christian anti-gay hate protesters, but there were also a few holding up signs saying "We're Christian and we like gays! We're not like them!" Heh.
Just for fun, you might want to memorize the faces of the protesters, so you'll recognize them when you run into them in the nearest gay bathhouse, or spy them cruising a highway rest stop for gay sex. It's almost hilarious how almost certain it is that at least one of them will show up in one of those sorts of places eventually.
posted by dnash at 2:46 PM on April 2, 2007
Just for fun, you might want to memorize the faces of the protesters, so you'll recognize them when you run into them in the nearest gay bathhouse, or spy them cruising a highway rest stop for gay sex. It's almost hilarious how almost certain it is that at least one of them will show up in one of those sorts of places eventually.
posted by dnash at 2:46 PM on April 2, 2007
If these were otherwise rational people I'd say you could walk up and introduce yourself, tell them a little something about your life and relationships, give them a chance to meet an actual gay person and see that they're a normal human (I'm presuming based on your past post in the blue - apologies if I'm over-reading). Typically when someone says something obnoxious or anti-gay marriage, etc, my reaction is to shrug and say somethign on the order of "well, I realize people have their own reasons for believing things like that, but I love my brother and can't support any kind of policies that give him less rights than me." I've found it very effective to confront people with the fact that they're talking about other people's kids, parents, and siblings.
I guess it's possible they're not changing their opinions any, just keeping them to themselves in my presence. Not as good a result but better than nothing.
All that said, I don't know that you can reach people like this and it is probably a bad idea to share too much of yourself with them. After all, these are folk willing to give up their personal time to yell at other people. Who knows where their boundaries or priorities are.
Gods, though, I love the idea of a crowd of homosexuals showing up at such a protest and just telling simple stories about their lives and introducing themselves to people - protesters and passers-by alike. Maybe I'm too pie-in-the-sky optimistic but I think that would be powerful.
posted by phearlez at 2:57 PM on April 2, 2007
I guess it's possible they're not changing their opinions any, just keeping them to themselves in my presence. Not as good a result but better than nothing.
All that said, I don't know that you can reach people like this and it is probably a bad idea to share too much of yourself with them. After all, these are folk willing to give up their personal time to yell at other people. Who knows where their boundaries or priorities are.
Gods, though, I love the idea of a crowd of homosexuals showing up at such a protest and just telling simple stories about their lives and introducing themselves to people - protesters and passers-by alike. Maybe I'm too pie-in-the-sky optimistic but I think that would be powerful.
posted by phearlez at 2:57 PM on April 2, 2007
Some of my law school friends set up a gay kissing booth when Justice Scalia came to visit last year. I think in general you can't go wrong with kissing.
posted by Saucy Intruder at 3:04 PM on April 2, 2007
posted by Saucy Intruder at 3:04 PM on April 2, 2007
I used to go right up to people I knew on the "other side" of various community and environmental protests I attended (including City Council type meetings where folks spoke), and greet them, welcome them to the event, ask how they were doing and how business was, and tell them I was there to support/speak on behalf of my issue and see if they were, too. Took the sting out of things, and reminded me that they could still be my community opponents without being my enemies. We just saw things differently. I'd hang out with the bad guys, then say my piece when my turn arrived.
FWIW, I am very impressed by the several Christian posters in this thread who apparently get it, and are behaving in a most Christian way with their gentle comments. It's not a bad philosophy, many will agree, and it's sad to see it hijacked by folks with narrow minds and small hearts. Thanks for reminding me that every Christian I meet is NOT Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson.
posted by FauxScot at 3:07 PM on April 2, 2007
FWIW, I am very impressed by the several Christian posters in this thread who apparently get it, and are behaving in a most Christian way with their gentle comments. It's not a bad philosophy, many will agree, and it's sad to see it hijacked by folks with narrow minds and small hearts. Thanks for reminding me that every Christian I meet is NOT Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson.
posted by FauxScot at 3:07 PM on April 2, 2007
First let the hateful diatribe enter one ear and then turn the other check so that it enters the other ear.
No, seriously, I agree with everyone who says ignore or engage in polite conversation. I have also seen the gay kissing booth done at my college campus back when Fred Phelps came to visit and it was great fun for all.
It also always helped me a bit to realize that there really is a warped sense of love for people that at least some of this speech comes from. They are truly trying to shame, embarrass, and scare people into salvation and away from an eternity of fire and brimstone. In my experience they generally do get more polite and human when engaged directly, but you are unlikely to talk them into going somewhere else.
posted by DanielDManiel at 3:34 PM on April 2, 2007
No, seriously, I agree with everyone who says ignore or engage in polite conversation. I have also seen the gay kissing booth done at my college campus back when Fred Phelps came to visit and it was great fun for all.
It also always helped me a bit to realize that there really is a warped sense of love for people that at least some of this speech comes from. They are truly trying to shame, embarrass, and scare people into salvation and away from an eternity of fire and brimstone. In my experience they generally do get more polite and human when engaged directly, but you are unlikely to talk them into going somewhere else.
posted by DanielDManiel at 3:34 PM on April 2, 2007
Hate speech laws are about as scary as it gets.
They're an essential part of the legal system of any truly just society, IMHO.
Perhaps you could make them uncomfortable without communicating with them? Have a cadre of well-dressed people take photographs of each of them. Get as close as you can to do so without being within arm's reach. Watch them, wearing dark glasses and speaking periodically into a cell phone. That sort of thing.
posted by solid-one-love at 3:40 PM on April 2, 2007
They're an essential part of the legal system of any truly just society, IMHO.
Perhaps you could make them uncomfortable without communicating with them? Have a cadre of well-dressed people take photographs of each of them. Get as close as you can to do so without being within arm's reach. Watch them, wearing dark glasses and speaking periodically into a cell phone. That sort of thing.
posted by solid-one-love at 3:40 PM on April 2, 2007
Take photos of them. One by one. Let them see you do it. I don't know the psychology of it, but people hate that - especially when they don't know where those pictures will end up. There was an abortion clinic near my work that had all sorts of protesters out the front of it - until they put up security cameras.
posted by kisch mokusch at 3:52 PM on April 2, 2007
posted by kisch mokusch at 3:52 PM on April 2, 2007
I've heard of haters being driven out of the Castro in San Francisco by the mere presence of the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. I have yet to see it happen, but the Sisters can be quite a formidable (and beautiful) sight. If you can find some theatrically-minded people, perhaps an act of street theatre is in order . . . ?
posted by treepour at 3:59 PM on April 2, 2007
posted by treepour at 3:59 PM on April 2, 2007
I don't know if your town has an MCC or a Dignity chapter, but it would be nice to incorporate some LGBT Christian perspectives into your school's Pride week. In the meantime, if they bug you tell them you're praying that they become enlightened and tolerant.
posted by Robert Angelo at 4:38 PM on April 2, 2007 [2 favorites]
posted by Robert Angelo at 4:38 PM on April 2, 2007 [2 favorites]
nthing the pledge drive. fun idea.
posted by craven_morhead at 4:41 PM on April 2, 2007
posted by craven_morhead at 4:41 PM on April 2, 2007
Count me among the Christians who...
[a] Are ashamed of what morons like this are doing.
[b] Think that there's nothing to be accomplished by engaging them in any way.
People who stage these sorts of stunts think that they're glorifying God, when the fact is that they're only trying to glorify themselves. The problem is that there is not a single person on the planet who will be able to convince them of their folly.
While there might very well be some satisfaction by trying to "stick it to them" in some way (counter-protest, outrageous behavior, etc.), that will only encourage and embolden them. Furthermore, the brouhaha will attract the attention of the local media and then these morons will have a larger stage.
These people thrive on confrontation and attention. Deny it to them and take satisfaction that you are doing exactly what they fear the most: ignoring them.
posted by DWRoelands at 5:09 PM on April 2, 2007
[a] Are ashamed of what morons like this are doing.
[b] Think that there's nothing to be accomplished by engaging them in any way.
People who stage these sorts of stunts think that they're glorifying God, when the fact is that they're only trying to glorify themselves. The problem is that there is not a single person on the planet who will be able to convince them of their folly.
While there might very well be some satisfaction by trying to "stick it to them" in some way (counter-protest, outrageous behavior, etc.), that will only encourage and embolden them. Furthermore, the brouhaha will attract the attention of the local media and then these morons will have a larger stage.
These people thrive on confrontation and attention. Deny it to them and take satisfaction that you are doing exactly what they fear the most: ignoring them.
posted by DWRoelands at 5:09 PM on April 2, 2007
I agree with TPS that the two things you describe are not the same - one is hate-filled but the other is just condescending. I think the thing to remember is that gay pride is clearly and obviously "winning" this battle (not against christians per se but against those who consider homosexuality wrong). They're trying whatever methods they can at this point to reverse time, but people growing up these days are much less likely to care one way or the other what someone's orientation is, and arguments that gay relationships can't be stable, loving, monogamous, child-rearing, etc, if they want to be, have been empirically proven false (not that any relationships should be constrained to certain norms provided all involved parties are willing & happy).
Basically, I think you should just remember that, and sort of feel for these poor folks whose old reproduction-centric notions of family are limiting their ability to see other ways we can be happy and create a beautiful world together. If you're up to it, you can try to give them a clue from time to time - if you're gay & have been or are in love, tell them a little about how it makes you feel, etc. But at the end of the day, love's winning. Don't let this little nuisance get to you.
posted by mdn at 5:25 PM on April 2, 2007
Basically, I think you should just remember that, and sort of feel for these poor folks whose old reproduction-centric notions of family are limiting their ability to see other ways we can be happy and create a beautiful world together. If you're up to it, you can try to give them a clue from time to time - if you're gay & have been or are in love, tell them a little about how it makes you feel, etc. But at the end of the day, love's winning. Don't let this little nuisance get to you.
posted by mdn at 5:25 PM on April 2, 2007
There are a couple ways to fight this... I've fought this.
First couple of times I stood and listened and waited and waited till one of them spilled up and said we are being brain washed by multiculturalism. I called him on it. He tried to evade the question but I kept calling him on it. Made him define it. I realized right then and there that these guys don't just hate gay people they hate most people. Gay bashing is a lot harder to fight against than racisms. So I worked the conversation in that direction. I got him to say that people from the middle east are a lesser race of people, loudly. I got him to say that we should kill all the men women and children in Iraq. I called him on the women and children part. By repeating "thou shall not kill" over and over again right in his face as loudly as he was yelling at me. He got really worked up and started ranting about some other racist topics. He went after Japanese people and Europeans.
There was a huge crowd when I got right in his face and he was yelling all kinds of racist stuff. Even the Christians that were supporting him left.
To recap if you expose them for being something so evil that no one can support them they really lose steam quick. Oh, get it on tape too... We did. Well we taught we did but it didn't come out. Proof of hate speech is a good way to get someone banned from coming back.
Second idea is set up near them with a sort of charity. Personally I'd try to make it look like they are some how endorsing your gay rights supporting charity while I was at it.
Third idea: search brother Jed in Google... he's the most famous one of these campus preacher jerks and happens to be the one I ran into. Lots of people braver than I have taken him on. They've thrown him in ponds and fountains. pelted him with Acorns. They had him arrested for inciting a riot (more or less, remember kids its not free speech if you are provoking someone).
My favorite idea I've heard was the kids that got a mega phone and got up in a friends 4th floor dorm and pretended to be the voice of God from above. They made anything that Brother Jed said too funny to take seriously... And he really couldn't argue with a kid with a megaphone pretending to be God.
posted by magikker at 5:33 PM on April 2, 2007
First couple of times I stood and listened and waited and waited till one of them spilled up and said we are being brain washed by multiculturalism. I called him on it. He tried to evade the question but I kept calling him on it. Made him define it. I realized right then and there that these guys don't just hate gay people they hate most people. Gay bashing is a lot harder to fight against than racisms. So I worked the conversation in that direction. I got him to say that people from the middle east are a lesser race of people, loudly. I got him to say that we should kill all the men women and children in Iraq. I called him on the women and children part. By repeating "thou shall not kill" over and over again right in his face as loudly as he was yelling at me. He got really worked up and started ranting about some other racist topics. He went after Japanese people and Europeans.
There was a huge crowd when I got right in his face and he was yelling all kinds of racist stuff. Even the Christians that were supporting him left.
To recap if you expose them for being something so evil that no one can support them they really lose steam quick. Oh, get it on tape too... We did. Well we taught we did but it didn't come out. Proof of hate speech is a good way to get someone banned from coming back.
Second idea is set up near them with a sort of charity. Personally I'd try to make it look like they are some how endorsing your gay rights supporting charity while I was at it.
Third idea: search brother Jed in Google... he's the most famous one of these campus preacher jerks and happens to be the one I ran into. Lots of people braver than I have taken him on. They've thrown him in ponds and fountains. pelted him with Acorns. They had him arrested for inciting a riot (more or less, remember kids its not free speech if you are provoking someone).
My favorite idea I've heard was the kids that got a mega phone and got up in a friends 4th floor dorm and pretended to be the voice of God from above. They made anything that Brother Jed said too funny to take seriously... And he really couldn't argue with a kid with a megaphone pretending to be God.
posted by magikker at 5:33 PM on April 2, 2007
Oooh. Brother Jed. He gave me a bible (New Testament and Psalms only) once when I was studying at UTA.
posted by mds35 at 6:01 PM on April 2, 2007
posted by mds35 at 6:01 PM on April 2, 2007
Point out what the Bible says about public displays of piety. From Matthew 6:
"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. "
Interestingly (and ironically) enough, the prayer that is by far most likely to be recited by someone praying in public appears later in that very same chapter, at Matthew 6:9-13.
posted by deadmessenger at 6:45 PM on April 2, 2007 [5 favorites]
"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. "
Interestingly (and ironically) enough, the prayer that is by far most likely to be recited by someone praying in public appears later in that very same chapter, at Matthew 6:9-13.
posted by deadmessenger at 6:45 PM on April 2, 2007 [5 favorites]
Deadmessenger, Thank you. That is the best thing I've read in a while.
posted by magikker at 6:53 PM on April 2, 2007
posted by magikker at 6:53 PM on April 2, 2007
Yeah. Seconding the notion that this is more of a social show-off-to-their-like-minded-buddies function for them as anything else, and as such, cannot really be addressed on logical terms. The more conflict you provide, the more opportunity you give them to show off for their pals; so, don't do it.
If you want to take it a step further, you can do something meaningful to advance equality elsewhere while they're out parading for their buddies. By doing this, you win, even if these jokers never know it.
posted by blenderfish at 8:35 PM on April 2, 2007
If you want to take it a step further, you can do something meaningful to advance equality elsewhere while they're out parading for their buddies. By doing this, you win, even if these jokers never know it.
posted by blenderfish at 8:35 PM on April 2, 2007
fuck em in the ass
posted by coffeee at 2:32 AM on April 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by coffeee at 2:32 AM on April 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
A few years ago, I talked to the leader of a small group of anti-gay campus protesters.
The argument went something like:
1. The anti-gay part of the bible is only a few passages, and jesus himself never talks about it. It's not in the ten commandments. It's not one of the deadly sins. On the other hand, jesus spends a lot of time talking about helping the poor and not being materialistic, and look around you! There are people going to stores everywhere, obsessing about the latest fashions, etc.
2. Your ultimate guide in interpreting the bible is your faith. God will let you know what you should fight for.
The old pastor guy was still gung-ho about opposing homosexuality, but his posse of teenage girls realized they didn't really care about anti-gay stuff that much. They were protesting gluttony the next time they came around; it was pretty cool.
posted by Tlogmer at 2:56 AM on April 3, 2007
The argument went something like:
1. The anti-gay part of the bible is only a few passages, and jesus himself never talks about it. It's not in the ten commandments. It's not one of the deadly sins. On the other hand, jesus spends a lot of time talking about helping the poor and not being materialistic, and look around you! There are people going to stores everywhere, obsessing about the latest fashions, etc.
2. Your ultimate guide in interpreting the bible is your faith. God will let you know what you should fight for.
The old pastor guy was still gung-ho about opposing homosexuality, but his posse of teenage girls realized they didn't really care about anti-gay stuff that much. They were protesting gluttony the next time they came around; it was pretty cool.
posted by Tlogmer at 2:56 AM on April 3, 2007
I think my friend's questing "Is it working? Have you guys actually converted anyone?" helped a lot. And also we looked really hurt when the pastor through "faggot" around.
posted by Tlogmer at 2:57 AM on April 3, 2007
posted by Tlogmer at 2:57 AM on April 3, 2007
Building on what Tlogmer said, there are two specific condemnations of homosexuality in the Bible. One of them is in Leviticus, the other in Romans.
The laws in Leviticus very simply do not apply to Christianity and many of them are rather goofy.
Romans, on the other hand, is in the New Testament, but it is not a gospel. It's an epistle. It's a letter to the Romans where they are told, among other things, to stop with man-love.
Well, not so much man-love, actually boy-prostitute-love. Slave-boy love. You get the point. The condemnation of homosexuality makes sense within the context of Roman society, that's why it's in a book called "Romans"
posted by dagnyscott at 5:31 AM on April 3, 2007 [5 favorites]
The laws in Leviticus very simply do not apply to Christianity and many of them are rather goofy.
Romans, on the other hand, is in the New Testament, but it is not a gospel. It's an epistle. It's a letter to the Romans where they are told, among other things, to stop with man-love.
Well, not so much man-love, actually boy-prostitute-love. Slave-boy love. You get the point. The condemnation of homosexuality makes sense within the context of Roman society, that's why it's in a book called "Romans"
posted by dagnyscott at 5:31 AM on April 3, 2007 [5 favorites]
note: none of what I just said will probably make any difference to the protesters themselves. Ignore them. Just if it happens to spark discussion or something.
posted by dagnyscott at 5:33 AM on April 3, 2007
posted by dagnyscott at 5:33 AM on April 3, 2007
a good old fashioned "kiss in" like ACT UP and Queernation used to do back in the day. Show those x-tians what "brotherly (and sisterly) love" is aaaaalll about!
above all, take the high road. don't let them bring you down to their level by shouting or returning the hate. The 1st amendment gives them the right to sound and look stupid. Your job is to let them appear as the hateful and despicable jerks they truly are (and ones who do not truly represent Christians or true Christian values).
or perhaps give a new home to Chocolate Jesus ... he's been kicked out of his current place, I'm sure he'd love to crash at your school until the heat is off...
posted by kuppajava at 8:10 AM on April 3, 2007
above all, take the high road. don't let them bring you down to their level by shouting or returning the hate. The 1st amendment gives them the right to sound and look stupid. Your job is to let them appear as the hateful and despicable jerks they truly are (and ones who do not truly represent Christians or true Christian values).
or perhaps give a new home to Chocolate Jesus ... he's been kicked out of his current place, I'm sure he'd love to crash at your school until the heat is off...
posted by kuppajava at 8:10 AM on April 3, 2007
Response by poster: Thanks to everyone for the advice. I swing back and forth between the ignoring tactic and the flamboyant tactic, so it was good to see that here in the discussion too. (and when is Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence going to start a Montana chapter?)
posted by ikahime at 2:38 PM on April 3, 2007
posted by ikahime at 2:38 PM on April 3, 2007
Thank you, DagnyScott, for pointing out those fun facts. I'll add the observation that this also applies to the 10 Commandments. Us Goyim don't have to abide them. Those are for the Chosen People.
I like the fundraiser notion, a lot! Clever stuff.
But, I'm a Christian, and I'm Gay, too. Oops. A little devil sits on my shoulder. He suggests that machine guns are the best solution to your problem. LOL! Sometimes, the devil is SO stupid.
posted by Goofyy at 7:28 AM on April 4, 2007
I like the fundraiser notion, a lot! Clever stuff.
But, I'm a Christian, and I'm Gay, too. Oops. A little devil sits on my shoulder. He suggests that machine guns are the best solution to your problem. LOL! Sometimes, the devil is SO stupid.
posted by Goofyy at 7:28 AM on April 4, 2007
The laws in Leviticus very simply do not apply to Christianity and many of them are rather goofy.
Technically, perhaps. But a lot of the protester types take the Old Testament just as seriously as the New Testament... 7 day creation, Adam & Eve, Noah, etc. And what Goofyy said about the 10 Commandments.
posted by CKmtl at 8:10 AM on April 4, 2007
Technically, perhaps. But a lot of the protester types take the Old Testament just as seriously as the New Testament... 7 day creation, Adam & Eve, Noah, etc. And what Goofyy said about the 10 Commandments.
posted by CKmtl at 8:10 AM on April 4, 2007
Response by poster: As a final post - pulled the fundraiser trick and raised about $100! Thanks for all the advice.
posted by ikahime at 9:38 PM on May 8, 2007
posted by ikahime at 9:38 PM on May 8, 2007
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posted by chiababe at 12:30 PM on April 2, 2007