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Why can't some straight women orgasm without fantasizing about women rather than men?
August 30, 2006 12:28 AM   Subscribe

Is it normal for a woman to be unable to orgasm alone or with a (male) partner unless she fantasizes about women?

A girlfriend of mine in some strain of conversation confessed to me that this was the only way she could orgasm. I searched for an answer on here before asking but found nothing to satisfy my curiosity.

At any rate, I inquired whether she might be gay or bi or anything in between or outside the confines of the two, and she replied that she is definitely without a doubt neither. But with qualification - she thinks she would probably enjoy getting it on with a female but is SURE she would want only to be with a male. She also indicates that she is more attracted to males than females in ways other than sexually.

But the fact remains - she cannot orgasm without fantasizing about women and has completely given up on having an orgasm through intercourse with her husband.

I've heard other girlfriends of mine say similar things, though not completely to the extreme as the one of whom I now speak. I'm just extremely curious as to what this could mean. Indeed, I carried on this conversation with my friend for what felt like 4 hours trying to delve into her thoughts and how to rationalize them.

Thoughts?
posted by orangeshoe to Human Relations (37 answers total) 2 users marked this as a favorite
 
I'm not going to use a loaded word like "abnormal", but it surely isn't typical! I won't speculate as to whether she is actually bisexual or not, but a heterosexual woman being unable to orgasm without thinking of other women is not the usual thing.

Also, completely giving up on having an orgasm with her husband is completely unfair to both of them. They should work on it. If they have and have had no luck, they should seek couples counseling.
posted by Justinian at 12:47 AM on August 30, 2006


People can pick up some funny sexual fantasies (as searching the internets will demonstrate very quickly) and I think you can train yourself to find some things get you to orgasm very quickly and maybe you can get sort of dependent on those things, so I wouldn't be worried about it myself.

It's maybe not a bad idea to try to do something about it, as Justinian said, but I have a feeling that getting stressed about it and worrying lots in the bedroom is not going to help resolve the situation.
posted by edd at 1:10 AM on August 30, 2006


Oh and on posting I'm worried I could be misconstrued. I'm not suggesting that women fantasising about women is at all weird - just that not every fantasy has to have a really big reason behind it, and I wouldn't worry about trying to figure out why she's ended up in this situation.
posted by edd at 1:12 AM on August 30, 2006


Just so you know, there are numerous answers to this question. Depending on what school of psychological or social thought someone belongs too they are bound to have a different sense of what your friend is or isn’t. Some psychologists would say that fantasy is the key to defining sexual identity, others would say that a range of variable need to be considered and fantasy is one among them.

I think that for your friend to be convinced that she is neither lesbian or bi (in that she apparently hasn't already gone there) suggests that she is perhaps harboring some internalized homophobia.

Similarly, lack of experience with the LGBTQ community might mean that she is ignorant of the range of sexual expression that can be found in those communities. I know a number of Lesbians who will joke that they can’t stand women and prefer to hang out with gay and or straight men. I similarly know gay men who thrive on anonymous sex and have long term relationships with straight or lesbian women. There are countless variations on the theme and your friend wouldn’t be the first girl who got off on girls but preferred the companionship of men. This is not to say that this is the easiest path to travel – its just that for people in “the community” its a recognizable (if still different) way of being. She may not have the option of moving to a metropole where such commmunities are found but she might gain from considering that there are contexts where one doesn't have to make 'heteronormative' choices (which include being gay or bisexual in the socially approved ways).

She might have a look around on-line for the Klein Sexual Orientation Grid. Klein wants to convince people they are Bi and I think that's unproductive but the grid is one way of starting to think about your sexuality outside of overly simplistic identitarian terms.
posted by anglophiliated at 1:40 AM on August 30, 2006


Yeah, it's normal. And probably temporary. Fantasies shift like the music to which you listen.

Is it not the case that everyone sometimes fantasises about other people during sex? Could be wrong, but think it's pretty common.

Resolving this would be solving a grand, yet barely admitted, problem with monogamy and should be published in a reputable journal.

I wish you luck and fame.

By the bye, the taboo is probably the turn on. She can do anything she wants with this partner (yes?), but in that, it becomes less interesting as it's already conquered country.

We've been trained to think of sex as somehow off-limits, and there begins the fetishisation. Now that she has a regular partner, that ritual has about as much fascination as a shower. Feels nice, sometimes amazing, but every time is not going to be attention grabbing. So, she thinks of something she's built up into her own fetish (which is not necessarily something she needs to act on). By asking or telling you about it, she's looking for either permission to have these thoughts or some sort of compatriotism (doesn't sound like she was coming on to you).

There's nothing to see here. Move along (before you scratch a scab which may not heal - assuming they are monogamous).
posted by converge at 2:04 AM on August 30, 2006 [2 favorites]


Needless to say, I disagree with converge strongly. There is nothing unusual about fantasies. But when that fantasy means you are totally unable to orgasm with your partner, you've moved past "cool fantasy" into "problem".
posted by Justinian at 2:29 AM on August 30, 2006 [1 favorite]


First she says she's without a doubt gay or even bisexual even though she fantasies about being with women.

Then she says she would like to be with a women sexually, but she only wants to be with men in other ways.

What exactly is different about men and women other than sexually? Colour me confused.

But, whatever. It's probably just some fantasy taboo that she likes to enjoy.
posted by liquorice at 2:40 AM on August 30, 2006


Justinian: I believe orangeshoe's friend may be overstating the, uh, "problem."

She's coming, she's just disturbed that she's having this fantasy.

Practical point was: wait a couple of months, then talk to her. Give the couple enough time to have an amazing session.

Course, the entire problem could just be he's not paying enough attention to her needs. The girl thing does strike me as a smokescreen.

Does the fact actually remain that she cannot orgasm with her partner without thinking of girls? Again, give it a couple of months.
posted by converge at 2:44 AM on August 30, 2006


Sure, it's normal. No, it doesn't mean your friend is a lesbian. No, her assurances that she isn't a lesbian don't mean that she isn't a lesbian.
posted by OmieWise at 4:48 AM on August 30, 2006


A few notes here:

- Not being able to come through intercourse alone is not at all unusual for women; some women aren't wired that way and some are. Often people have ideas that everyone is like them sexually and so it's hard to wrap your head around the vast differences in people's physical and emotional sexual makeups.
- I'd be more curious if your friend can orgasm with her husband at all, or if, as converge asks, if her husband is really attending to her desires sexually. Sometimes if you're in a sexually stultifying relationship, the biggest turn on can just be "not you" and this may be what your friend is doing. Where fantasizing about other men might be intellectually unfaithful to some, fantasizing about stuff that would "never happen" may be safer.
- Fantasizing about pretty much whatever you want is okay. That said I never never heard of this particular combination of fantasy/preference but that's just offered as a data point, not as any sort of normal/abnormal assessment.
- the fantasy taboo thing seems likely, think of the "barely legal" and incest porn out there - one of the reasons it's hot is because it's taboo, not because everyone wants to sleep with their mom/daughter/son/brother
- I don't know anything at all about your friend, however it's not totally out in left field to say that for some people being gay/bi might present enough of a social problem that it just becomes a non-option for them intellectually and then they discount that option entirely [as your friend says "SURE she would only want to be with a male"]. People draw all sorts of lines about their own sexuality that may or may not line up with the things that make their crotch tingle.
posted by jessamyn at 4:59 AM on August 30, 2006 [1 favorite]


Some time ago a lesbian who liked to watch heterosexual porn (and whose mother had found her stash) wrote in to Savage Love.
posted by brujita at 5:34 AM on August 30, 2006


I can't get past the thought that if her husband isn't getting her off he isn't doing it right. He needs to change it up, try new things. They could be in a rut sexually and she needs to resort to a taboo subject to spice it up, if only in her own mind. She could very well be bi but if she's adamant against exploring that side then it's moot. Sounds like they need a healthy dose of communication.
posted by friarjohn at 6:22 AM on August 30, 2006


Normal. Most people just don't articulate what they fantasize about.
posted by desuetude at 6:56 AM on August 30, 2006


I (male) was with a woman who was like that. I think she refused to act on her attraction to women because of religious reasons, but it's not like she wasn't attracted to me as well even while actively fantasizing about women. I believe that because the sex was frequent and great and she seemed genuinely turned on by me. So to sum up, she was probably bi with the added twist of wanting to be with men while fantasizing about women.

So, I don't know if it's normal or not, but your friend ain't the only one. (Unless of course your friend is my ex. ;-)
posted by callmejay at 7:02 AM on August 30, 2006


There is an alternative to the fantasies being taboo;

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,589-1662280,00.html

"The key to female arousal seems rather to be deep relaxation and a lack of anxiety, with direct sensory input from the genitals playing a less critical role."

Now if the images themselves are causing anxiety, her situation may be as complex as, well, our inner subjective world; dreamscapes have their own logic.

What can you live with, and what can't you live without?

As for trying new things, here's another quote from the above article:

"The experiments also revealed a rather surprising effect: both men and women found it easier to have an orgasm when they kept their socks on. Draughts in the scanning room left couples complaining of "literally cold feet", and providing a pair of socks allowed 80 per cent rather than 50 per cent to reach a climax while their brains were scanned."
posted by dragonsi55 at 7:17 AM on August 30, 2006


I don't know anything at all about your friend, however it's not totally out in left field to say that for some people being gay/bi might present enough of a social problem that it just becomes a non-option for them intellectually and then they discount that option entirely [as your friend says "SURE she would only want to be with a male"]. People draw all sorts of lines about their own sexuality that may or may not line up with the things that make their crotch tingle.

I'm with jessamyn with this one. The divide in people's minds between what they like and what they think they like can be anywhere from nothing but smoke to the Great Wall of China. This is especially true when it comes to homosexuality. Married men who regularly veiw gay porn - but who "aren't into fags", straight guys advertising free blow-jobs for men, but who have a strict no-gay policy, women who live half their lives in a heterosexual manner only to fall in love with their best friends, but who aren't into it for the sex - it's boggling. The fear of a label is enough to make them hide a part of themselves so thoroughly that they lose sight of it althogether.

It could be just a fantasy. But there's always the very real possibilty that she could have bisexual, even lesbian, tendencies. The telling part is the qualifier - if she thinks she would probably enjoy getting it on with a female, what makes her so sure she would want only to be with a male? She's already admitting that a lesbian encounter could be fun, but that emphatic 'no!' makes me think that the reluctance has nothing to do with sex, and everything to do with the social acceptance.

At the end of the day she does need to talk to her partner about this. At the very least, it sounds like her sex life could use a refresher. Being stuck on one fantasy is as much a rut as only using one position. There are plenty of safe, monogamous ways to explore her sapphic fantasies too, without bringing another woman into the bedroom - there is plenty of girl-only, very woman-friendly pornography they can experience together, for a start.

At worst, she could be setting herself up for the pain that comes with a later life "coming out." If she does have bisexual or lesbian leanings, she could be setting herself up for years of uncertainty, and the pain of rebuilding a sexual identity.

The short version? It's normal for a woman to fantasise about sex with another woman. Millions of lesbian and bisexual women do it every day. And that's normal, too.
posted by Jilder at 7:17 AM on August 30, 2006


The fear of a label is enough to make them hide a part of themselves so thoroughly that they lose sight of it althogether.

That's one way to look at it. But I've been told making one's sexuality a huge part of one's social identity is a pretty recent phenomenon, and in some ways, it's a bit odd. You can want a certain experience or even just want to imagine it without wanting to build your life around it, fear having little to do with it. Might be that when the experience defines the social identity, that's when the fear kicks in.
posted by namespan at 8:20 AM on August 30, 2006


I'm confused by the answers to this question. I consider myself bisexual and one of the reasons that I drew this conclusion was the fact that I have fantasies & sex dreams about other women. Even if I ended up marrying a man, I would think I was bisexual because of this. If we're going to dismiss it as "oh, that's normal" then I think we have to say, "everyone's a little bit bisexual" rather than just include homosexual fantasies under heterosexuality. This woman never fantasizes about men when orgasming, and you're granting that as normal for a kinsey 0? I think she's gotta move a few points up the scale at least.

But it's true, this is going to be a disagreement of what the "true" self is. For me, fantasies and dreams are part of my psyche, not random misfirings or meaningless errors, so I act/ed on the feelings and desires I experienced...

she thinks she would probably enjoy getting it on with a female but is SURE she would want only to be with a male. She also indicates that she is more attracted to males than females in ways other than sexually.

you know what, nevermind the nuance. She's queer but likes hanging out with guys and is uncomfortable with her perception of the queer community.

Maybe she's got enough hetero or asexual tendencies to be happy living with a guy, and that's her choice, but if she is attracted to, fantasizes about, and imagines she would enjoy having sex with women, and enjoys the company of men in only a non-sexual way, I really think the answer's pretty clear.
posted by mdn at 8:25 AM on August 30, 2006


Is sex scary for her? Does she have a history of sexual abuse? Did her daddy hit her? I think the other answers in this thread are probably spot on (it's normal but maybe she should try to think of something else occasionally). Yet, if the answers to any of my questions are yes then maybe she's thinking of girls because they're safe. For some of my exgirlfriends this was very much the case. They considered me nurturing and kind where the men (boys) in their lives were insistant and cold.
posted by nadawi at 8:34 AM on August 30, 2006


An ex of mine had mentioned her past as a bisexual woman, and we both discovered that when she was with women, she fantasized about women; and when with men, about men.

I think that fantasies are totally normal, in as much as they don't take precedent over fulfillment in a normal sexual arrangement.

Something to suggest is that she open up about her fantasies with her partner, and encourage him to do the same. Perhaps she is not interested in bringing another woman into the situation, but he should be willing to learn new techniques that will lead to orgasm - besides just f@$king her brains out.
posted by parmanparman at 8:37 AM on August 30, 2006


you know what, nevermind the nuance. She's queer but likes hanging out with guys and is uncomfortable with her perception of the queer community.


We don't know what her sexual orientation is. We're speculating. You cannot say that about the person without meeting them, certainly not from a two-paragraph question on Axe MeFi. We do have self-reporting here, and the answer to that question is no. The poster also thinks that she enjoys sex with him.

The question presented is whether or not it is "normal" for a woman involved in a heterosexual relationship to have to think about sex with women to orgasm. The answer is, yes. People get hung up on stuff all of the time. The fact is that its not the fantasy about the women that is causing the orgasm. Its the stimulation by the man here.

Some people think they can't come unless they are thinking of feet, or boobs or whatever. This woman needs to think about lesbian sex. The fact is that they have set up this precondition in their minds. The plumbing still works, its that a ritual of sorts has developed before turning on the faucet. That doesn't mean she's a lesbian or weird. That's not to say she's not gay, just that we don't know and that it doesn't necessarily follow.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:25 AM on August 30, 2006


Bi but inhibited is my guess. Some societal and personal perceptions are pretty deeply ingrained through childhood. If this is the case she'd do well to come to terms with it. There's nothing abnormal about being attracted to people of either gender.

I can't offer any real advice except to say that this may be a great opportunity to start or enhance your lesbian porn collection (perhaps just tasteful softcore). Maybe it's just a passing fantasy, maybe it's not, but there's no good reason to be ashamed of one's sexuality.

I know lesbian porn != lesbians, but it's still pretty hot.
posted by polyhedron at 10:51 AM on August 30, 2006


Has her husband ever considered/attempted crossdressing? Seems like a simplish fix, if he's interested.
posted by Orb2069 at 3:48 PM on August 30, 2006


All this insight is wonderful - I did not expect as much interest in the question.

For more details to my original post - my friend said she thinks she would enjoy getting it on with a female - although she has no nagging desire to do so. And for the commenters who are confused on her orgasm ability with her husband - she does indeed orgasm with her husband - but only through clitoral stimulation and only by fantasizing about a woman.

Further, she does not pretend that her husband is a woman when he is stimulating her, she's well aware he's a man - but she fantasizes about a completely separate man and woman getting it on, and concentrates on the woman to orgasm. She explains it as a fantasy that she would have when masturbating, but that she also must think about to come when with her husband (almost like watching porn in her head is how she described it). Thinking about intercourse between a man and a woman does not get her off as much as thinking about foreplay between the two, with again, the woman in the fantasy being the "arouser." This is generally the only scenario she says has been able to excite her, ever!

And importantly - she ENJOYS intercourse with her husband (and did as well with (most) of her exes), but she simply cannot orgasm from it - which as one poster commented is not uncommon. If she could - perhaps she might fantasize about that or perhaps not (this being my thought - not hers).

And for the record - I do not believe she was coming on to me when she laid out these inner-fantasies - she is just a really great friend and we were drinking a lot of wine. :)

(As an aside, I really hope I explained this true to her words - and I think I did. Hopefully this helps commenters to target the issue with greater particularity. By the way - my friend was well aware of my posting beforehand (with the knowledge her anonymity is ensured), and she is curious even to hear what you all have to say. I'll post an update after discussing further with her.)
posted by orangeshoe at 3:49 PM on August 30, 2006


Has her husband ever considered/attempted crossdressing? Seems like a simplish fix, if he's interested.

Although I am sure her husband does not know yet of her inability to think of a man to orgasm - I am almost positive that she would not be into this. The only reason I think this is because she described what sounds like a hot chick in her fantasies and not anything like what her husband would look like in cross-dress.
posted by orangeshoe at 3:52 PM on August 30, 2006


Before I forget: Anglophiliated - your answer was really enlightening for me. I have a lot of gay/bi/queer friends yet I was completely UNAWARE that such interests as you describe are commonplace (perhaps because my friends more clearly define themselves as one way or another sexually and are not as "tangentially" interested in others of the same sex as is my married friend).
posted by orangeshoe at 3:57 PM on August 30, 2006


For my .02, this bit:

she fantasizes about a completely separate man and woman getting it on, and concentrates on the woman to orgasm.

... changes up the whole deal.

Your original question asked about a woman fantasizing about women rather than men. This is not that. She happens to be fantasizing about a heterosexual couple getting it on... failing to see what makes this not just some mental hetero porn? She even described it as "like watching porn."

Lots of people can only get off when they fantasize about a man and a woman having sex. At risk of being simplistic, if straight women were supposed to fantasize about only straight men... then, it'd have to be a guy just standing there DIY, or posing. For there to be het sexual activity to imagine, there'd have to be a girl in the picture.

That doesn't even sound "bi but inhibited" to me. So she lets her mind's eye zoom in on the chick... the dude is still there.

I'm sure some psychologist would say that the fantasy chick is a projection/extension of herself, and that she focuses on the girl as a mechanism to produce her own orgasm.

She explains it as a fantasy that she would have when masturbating, but that she also must think about to come when with her husband...

... does this part mean that she masturbated to this fantasy before she met her husband? If yes, then I'd offer that it has nothing at all to do with him, his abilities, or his role in a lack of communication (as was suggested up thread). This is the mental movie that gets her off, and she's in the aforementioned rut with it. How could the husband know that she has concerns about a fantasy she's used to get off since before he came along?

Thinking about intercourse between a man and a woman does not get her off as much as thinking about foreplay between the two, with again, the woman in the fantasy being the "arouser."

Is the issue that she feels she "should" be mentally focusing on the intercourse? If so, why? Producers of women-friendly porn have done market studies and found that women prefer less of the POV in-and-out close-ups, the actual intercoursing if you will, and more of the scenes with foreplay, slower arousal with more mental stimulus, etc. Your friend sounds pretty much like the societal norm, so far.

So the fantasy chick takes the lead... again, psych types would likely say, "Your friend subconsciously wants to be more assertive sexually, rather than lying back and relying on cunnilingus to bring her to orgasm..." I'm not a psych type but my query is more, "why is she bothered by it?" Why is the notion of the woman-as-arouser so forbidden?

Is your friend's concern that she's imagining strangers, rather than herself and her husband? IANASB, but I think that's pretty normal. Fantasy is supposed to stimulate and titillate, right? What's different and stimulating about the actual reality being experienced?

Your friend might be bi or lesbian, or she might be straight. She might be repressed, or she might be perfectly normal and her concern is misplaced. But it doesn't sound like she "fantasizes about women" enough that it's a sign that it's an indicator that she's bi or gay.
posted by pineapple at 7:32 PM on August 30, 2006 [2 favorites]


Normal. The fantasy woman simply represents a desired goal or state. By focussing on that woman in that state, she reaches that state herself. Good for her.
posted by obiwanwasabi at 9:01 PM on August 30, 2006 [1 favorite]


What's "normal"? It's a manufactured fiction, a composite picture of a person who, despite being an amaglamation of many, does not exist.

"Normal" is a concept that is ultimately not useful in exploring this phenomenon. Some people do this. Others do not. Where do you draw the line? Is 33% OK but 32% not?

It is not unhealthy to have these fantasies. The degree to which other people have them is largely irrelevant to your situation.
posted by RikiTikiTavi at 9:21 PM on August 30, 2006


When I fantasise I usually focus on the female too (mind you, I'm bi) but that doesn't mean anything. I focus on the girl, because I'm more interested in what's happening to her as I'm imagining that happening to me.
posted by liquorice at 12:20 AM on August 31, 2006


she fantasizes about a completely separate man and woman getting it on, and concentrates on the woman to orgasm.

... changes up the whole deal.


yes. That's fantasizing about hetero sex, not about a woman.

We don't know what her sexual orientation is. We're speculating. You cannot say that about the person without meeting them

well, it's a speculative, self-reporting category in every case. If a woman was fantasizing about the soft curves of another woman's body touching her own while getting off, and primarily enjoyed men for non-sexual reasons, I would count that as some level of queer. But it turns out to be quite a different scenario - she's identifying with the woman in the fantasy rather than being turned on by her.
posted by mdn at 9:46 AM on August 31, 2006


Agreed -- go read Nancy Friday's My Secret Garden or Forbidden Flowers, it's pretty normal for people to fantasize about sexual situations involving other people. For women, if they're seeing it from the female perspective or looking at what is pleasing to the female, then it's pretty much a het (or bi perhaps) fantasy. I'm not sure why some people fantasize in first person and others in second person but my experience has been that both are pretty typical.
posted by jessamyn at 12:09 PM on August 31, 2006


Another (rather late) update. My friend's on the phone and offers a rather late clarification. She believes does not focus on the girl because she identifies with her - she does so because she enjoys what's being done to her by the guy. And she is equally if not more aroused when it is two women with no man in the scenario.

Does this change anyone's thoughts?
posted by orangeshoe at 10:15 PM on September 5, 2006


Oh, for pete's sake, tell her to stop overanalysing and just come already. /gentle sarcasm

No, it really doesn't change anything. The difference between "identifying" and "enjoying what's being done to her" is not a terribly fine distinction.
posted by desuetude at 6:32 AM on September 6, 2006


She believes does not focus on the girl because she identifies with her - she does so because she enjoys what's being done to her by the guy.

I do not understand what it is you are trying to get at, at this point. Is your friend worried that she is a lesbian? Are you worried that your friend is in denial? Do you think your friend is a lesbian? Are you trying to get your friend to talk about her sex fantasies because ... well, because why? Overanalyzing any fantasy is a great way to make them seem less hot. Reading too much into it is rarely enlightening. There's almost no difference, in my world, between "identifying with the girl" and "enjoying what's being done to her" it's just a difference between first and second person fantasizing.

Perhaps you fantasize in the first person [with yourself as someone actually in the fantasy] and your friend does not [she sees other people when she fantasizes, more of a "watching porn" role perhaps]. As a result, it's probably going to be difficult for you to tease apart exactly which role your friend is playing w/r/t her own fantasy and it may seem odd to you that she gets aroused that way. My thoughts at this point are that your level of curiosity seems excessive and that your friend doesn't have to "rationalize" her own feelings/fantasies to you.

What you have described fits into most people's ideas of "totally normal" and if you have a particular specific angle you're curious about ["Is my friend gay/bi?" "Do you think my friend would have sex with me if I asked, knowing this about her?"] then maybe you should mention that.
posted by jessamyn at 7:28 AM on September 6, 2006


At this point - my own curiosity has flown out the window. As it turns out, my friend's whole premise was that she's perfectly comfortable in heterosexual relationships and indeed has been in them her whole life. But she was internally questioning through her conversations with a close friend (that is, me) whether perhaps she might be bi but never had the balls, for lack of a better word, to act on it because she has internalized her socialization. In other words, because she has never felt unhappy with a man, she wonders, whether she's just gone with it, for fear of entering a realm about which she felt uncomfortable (both internally and externally).

Feel free to not respond - because this post has already continued beyond its original inquiry (an admittedly poorly conveyed one from the start - my apologies).
posted by orangeshoe at 7:11 PM on September 6, 2006


Maybe they should watch some porn - hetero and girl-on-girl - together. The fact that it's turning him on might turn *her* on, et voila.

I second (or third, or eighth, or whatever) the suggestion that her guy's technique might be a bit off, which may lead to this whole fantasising thing.

Watching some porn and seeing how she likes it might give him some interesting new ideas...
posted by unmusic at 1:13 AM on September 30, 2006


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