My friend went on his "me time" trip, but saw some friends.
August 18, 2024 6:34 PM Subscribe
My friend, back in this post, wanted to take a solo/exclusively self-time trip in Maine. As you can see in the previous post, I had a hard time with it initially, but accepted and let it go.
I did not insist I go, or bring my cancer situation up. After my Ask, I simply accepted it as it was and let it go. I continued to feel somewhat hurt, but let it go and the hurt faded.
This friend had explained that he planned to spend the trip in complete isolation, completely solo, and not interact with anyone in Maine other than his AirBnb mates (staying in a shared house situation), and obviously interactions with random strangers from time to time. We agreed that we would check in every Sunday and that he would share photos of his trip (he offered re: both, I didn't ask for those). He framed the month-long trip as a break from people, and a way for him to reconnect with himself and to take a break from the hectic city where we both live in. Fair enough and understandable.
While I was initially disappointed, as per the previous post, I was also happy for him and knew he deserved that time away.
During one of our check-ins, he mentioned he would meet up with a few mutual friends the state over to go hiking. During another check-in, he mentioned seeing some acquaintances in the area.
I'm struggling with this (probably a touch of RSD and abandonment trauma) but wanted to pause and check in with AskMe to calibrate before getting hurt/upset and want to hold the train before it moves forward.
Before the train moves, here's my train of thought, which would lead to me feeling hurt/upset, is that Maine was on my bucket list, I was looking forward to seeing it and spending the time with him, and that my life is precious/short (~5 years left, possibly), and I was under the impression/was told that this was a solo trip and he wouldn't be spending time with people at all. Obviously, he's allowed to change his mind (no control here on my part), but I feel that train of thought coming — bothered that if he can see a few friends here and there after all, what would the harm be in me flying in for a couple of days? I would even get my own hotel. That train of thought is feeling hurt that he gave me a hard no because he wanted solo/alone time, but now he's seeing friends. It makes me wonder if the "Sundays-only checkins" and "hard no to coming because self-time, but ends up hanging with friends anyway" means there's something wrong with me and/or the friendship.
However, I want to stop that train before it comes. I plan to talk about this with my therapist (notes below) and want to get outside/neutral perspectives. If the train does go there, would that be a overreaction? Is there something I'm possibly missing? I feel those feelings of rejection/hurt/"I'm not good enough" threatening to come, but again, want to pause and reflect/get perspectives.
Notes:
-I just switched to a new therapist. Unfortunately, I have been through 5 different therapists in the past year because of turnover in therapists, complications with insurance, and compatibility. This one seems to be locked in and really good, and Kaiser (which is usually difficult to work with) approved for a year worth of sessions. This kind of situation is sadly common in the Deaf community given scarcity of Deaf/signing therapists and licensing limitations. Many Deaf people tend to use Kaiser given ease of interpreters/communications/emails, but they are limited when it comes to "out of network" therapists because they're a HMO.
-The immunotherapy scare in the previous post did not materialize. I did my 6th round a few weeks ago, and if all goes well with lab work, will do my 7th round in late September, and the 3rd post-immunotherapy CT scan at the end of September. Here's to hoping!
-I did not press my friend at all or ask again if I could come, at all. Just wanted to emphasize that I completely backed off.
I did not insist I go, or bring my cancer situation up. After my Ask, I simply accepted it as it was and let it go. I continued to feel somewhat hurt, but let it go and the hurt faded.
This friend had explained that he planned to spend the trip in complete isolation, completely solo, and not interact with anyone in Maine other than his AirBnb mates (staying in a shared house situation), and obviously interactions with random strangers from time to time. We agreed that we would check in every Sunday and that he would share photos of his trip (he offered re: both, I didn't ask for those). He framed the month-long trip as a break from people, and a way for him to reconnect with himself and to take a break from the hectic city where we both live in. Fair enough and understandable.
While I was initially disappointed, as per the previous post, I was also happy for him and knew he deserved that time away.
During one of our check-ins, he mentioned he would meet up with a few mutual friends the state over to go hiking. During another check-in, he mentioned seeing some acquaintances in the area.
I'm struggling with this (probably a touch of RSD and abandonment trauma) but wanted to pause and check in with AskMe to calibrate before getting hurt/upset and want to hold the train before it moves forward.
Before the train moves, here's my train of thought, which would lead to me feeling hurt/upset, is that Maine was on my bucket list, I was looking forward to seeing it and spending the time with him, and that my life is precious/short (~5 years left, possibly), and I was under the impression/was told that this was a solo trip and he wouldn't be spending time with people at all. Obviously, he's allowed to change his mind (no control here on my part), but I feel that train of thought coming — bothered that if he can see a few friends here and there after all, what would the harm be in me flying in for a couple of days? I would even get my own hotel. That train of thought is feeling hurt that he gave me a hard no because he wanted solo/alone time, but now he's seeing friends. It makes me wonder if the "Sundays-only checkins" and "hard no to coming because self-time, but ends up hanging with friends anyway" means there's something wrong with me and/or the friendship.
However, I want to stop that train before it comes. I plan to talk about this with my therapist (notes below) and want to get outside/neutral perspectives. If the train does go there, would that be a overreaction? Is there something I'm possibly missing? I feel those feelings of rejection/hurt/"I'm not good enough" threatening to come, but again, want to pause and reflect/get perspectives.
Notes:
-I just switched to a new therapist. Unfortunately, I have been through 5 different therapists in the past year because of turnover in therapists, complications with insurance, and compatibility. This one seems to be locked in and really good, and Kaiser (which is usually difficult to work with) approved for a year worth of sessions. This kind of situation is sadly common in the Deaf community given scarcity of Deaf/signing therapists and licensing limitations. Many Deaf people tend to use Kaiser given ease of interpreters/communications/emails, but they are limited when it comes to "out of network" therapists because they're a HMO.
-The immunotherapy scare in the previous post did not materialize. I did my 6th round a few weeks ago, and if all goes well with lab work, will do my 7th round in late September, and the 3rd post-immunotherapy CT scan at the end of September. Here's to hoping!
-I did not press my friend at all or ask again if I could come, at all. Just wanted to emphasize that I completely backed off.
Here's my take — I have a lot of friends, and I love them all very much, but they are in different "buckets". Some of my friends are people I like getting brunch with on weekends. Some are friends I like to go see live music shows with. Some are friends who I work out with. Some are friends I see only every few months, but when we get together we have long heart-to-heart conversations. Some are friends I like to travel with and see on vacation. There's overlap of course, and many friends are in multiple categories, but just because I am friends with someone, it doesn't mean I like doing every type of activity with that person.
It sounds like your friend really cares about you and values the friendship (since he offered to check in with you and send photos!), but for whatever reason, you're not someone who he wants to spend this particular vacation with. That doesn't mean he thinks any less of you, or that you're not good enough — it just means he made a decision about how he wanted to spend his vacation time, among the zillions of options available to him, and that plan didn't include you this time around, and that's OK.
I've been on the receiving end of a situation like this, and it feels totally shitty, I get it. But it really has very little to do with you personally, and a lot to do with a million factors in your friend's life that he may not even be able to fully articulate. If you value the friendship I recommend focusing on the things you appreciate about your friend, and doing your best not to take this personally, because it's almost certainly not personal.
If you'd like to travel with this friend some time, I think the best route is for you to propose a trip, and invite him to join you — rather than trying to join in on plans that are already established. But even so, be prepared for the possibility that he may decline, again for reasons that are likely not personal.
posted by mekily at 6:59 PM on August 18 [33 favorites]
It sounds like your friend really cares about you and values the friendship (since he offered to check in with you and send photos!), but for whatever reason, you're not someone who he wants to spend this particular vacation with. That doesn't mean he thinks any less of you, or that you're not good enough — it just means he made a decision about how he wanted to spend his vacation time, among the zillions of options available to him, and that plan didn't include you this time around, and that's OK.
I've been on the receiving end of a situation like this, and it feels totally shitty, I get it. But it really has very little to do with you personally, and a lot to do with a million factors in your friend's life that he may not even be able to fully articulate. If you value the friendship I recommend focusing on the things you appreciate about your friend, and doing your best not to take this personally, because it's almost certainly not personal.
If you'd like to travel with this friend some time, I think the best route is for you to propose a trip, and invite him to join you — rather than trying to join in on plans that are already established. But even so, be prepared for the possibility that he may decline, again for reasons that are likely not personal.
posted by mekily at 6:59 PM on August 18 [33 favorites]
Your feelings are your feelings and you can feel hurt or upset all you need to.
But it would be unreasonable and inappropriate to direct any of this upset or hurt back on your friend, or really anyone in your social circle. The expectations you have set around this are stringent, unrealistic, and unkind. No one could or should have to live up to the expectations you have set around this person's trip.
Your friend is allowed to behave in whatever way they want, see whomever they want, change their mind, and do all of that without your input. None of this involves you, none of this requires your consent.
Please work on coordinating your own plans to live your best life, and invite others to join you in them (or not!) if you want. You will have so much more room to make wonderful experiences for yourself when you stop trying to Monday morning quarterback and micromanage your friends lives and motivations.
posted by phunniemee at 7:03 PM on August 18 [40 favorites]
But it would be unreasonable and inappropriate to direct any of this upset or hurt back on your friend, or really anyone in your social circle. The expectations you have set around this are stringent, unrealistic, and unkind. No one could or should have to live up to the expectations you have set around this person's trip.
Your friend is allowed to behave in whatever way they want, see whomever they want, change their mind, and do all of that without your input. None of this involves you, none of this requires your consent.
Please work on coordinating your own plans to live your best life, and invite others to join you in them (or not!) if you want. You will have so much more room to make wonderful experiences for yourself when you stop trying to Monday morning quarterback and micromanage your friends lives and motivations.
posted by phunniemee at 7:03 PM on August 18 [40 favorites]
I think a more typical reaction about someone who is just a friend (and not someone who means way more to you, either romantically or in some other sense) would be to think 'oh, of course it makes sense he got lonely from his 100% solo month plans, and how great that there were people in the area that he could spend an afternoon with.'
It is probably not worth it to spend a lot of time feeling lied to or betrayed that he spent his time how he wanted. Maybe you are sensing now that your proposal for a bucket list trip weekend was too intense, and that led your friend to exaggerate their need for alone time in order to let you down gently. And that is a tough feeling - like shame. But it isn't anyone's fault, and it is something therapy can really help with.
The plans you wanted to have with him seem more intense than an afternoon meetup with a couple people for hiking, or running into a couple people in town and hanging out. For many folks it's easier to have plans with a couple or group because you don't have to worry about carrying the conversation as much or have to keep someone entertained all by yourself. Your trip would have been solo to see your friend, and would have involved more planning and time together. Even if that wasn't your intent, and you stayed in a hotel, it still would have been more intense and more intrusive for someone looking for some solo decompression.
I don't think you need to feel like there's anything wrong with you or the friendship, but maybe reflect on how to deal with disappointment and how to improve your sense of self-worth. You didn't do anything wrong by wanting a special time in Maine with your friend, but your friend didn't want that and also didn't do anything wrong by taking care of himself to get what he did want.
posted by lizard music at 7:03 PM on August 18 [17 favorites]
It is probably not worth it to spend a lot of time feeling lied to or betrayed that he spent his time how he wanted. Maybe you are sensing now that your proposal for a bucket list trip weekend was too intense, and that led your friend to exaggerate their need for alone time in order to let you down gently. And that is a tough feeling - like shame. But it isn't anyone's fault, and it is something therapy can really help with.
The plans you wanted to have with him seem more intense than an afternoon meetup with a couple people for hiking, or running into a couple people in town and hanging out. For many folks it's easier to have plans with a couple or group because you don't have to worry about carrying the conversation as much or have to keep someone entertained all by yourself. Your trip would have been solo to see your friend, and would have involved more planning and time together. Even if that wasn't your intent, and you stayed in a hotel, it still would have been more intense and more intrusive for someone looking for some solo decompression.
I don't think you need to feel like there's anything wrong with you or the friendship, but maybe reflect on how to deal with disappointment and how to improve your sense of self-worth. You didn't do anything wrong by wanting a special time in Maine with your friend, but your friend didn't want that and also didn't do anything wrong by taking care of himself to get what he did want.
posted by lizard music at 7:03 PM on August 18 [17 favorites]
First, I'm glad your immunotherapy continues! That's the most important thing.
Second, yes, this would be excessive, inappropriate, and bordering on creepy to express to your friend. So far you've kept it in your head, which is great! (We all have thoughts and feelings it's better not to share. We can't control what pops into our heads sometimes.) But it is something you should work on with your therapist, to avoid poisoning this, or other, relationships. Not just because of the resentment you might build up internally, either. You need to understand this: if I read that paragraph of rationalizations about why it would've been okay for you to go and I was the friend, I would be backing off seriously for my own comfort and possibly even safety. Now, I'm a woman, so I'm more sensitive to this problem than most men have probably had to be, but it's never good to spend time with someone who doesn't want to take "no" for an answer. Fortunately, a good therapist can help you build some distress tolerance and actual acceptance, so it's really good that you're sticking with therapy despite what sound like an awful lot of unfair obstacles.
(You are better off not "clinicalizing" this so you feel like there's some excuse or justification or reason other people have to respect for it, though. "RSD" is not a clinical diagnosis.)
posted by praemunire at 7:17 PM on August 18 [19 favorites]
Second, yes, this would be excessive, inappropriate, and bordering on creepy to express to your friend. So far you've kept it in your head, which is great! (We all have thoughts and feelings it's better not to share. We can't control what pops into our heads sometimes.) But it is something you should work on with your therapist, to avoid poisoning this, or other, relationships. Not just because of the resentment you might build up internally, either. You need to understand this: if I read that paragraph of rationalizations about why it would've been okay for you to go and I was the friend, I would be backing off seriously for my own comfort and possibly even safety. Now, I'm a woman, so I'm more sensitive to this problem than most men have probably had to be, but it's never good to spend time with someone who doesn't want to take "no" for an answer. Fortunately, a good therapist can help you build some distress tolerance and actual acceptance, so it's really good that you're sticking with therapy despite what sound like an awful lot of unfair obstacles.
(You are better off not "clinicalizing" this so you feel like there's some excuse or justification or reason other people have to respect for it, though. "RSD" is not a clinical diagnosis.)
posted by praemunire at 7:17 PM on August 18 [19 favorites]
First, feel your emotions. Even if the feeling of rejection is not logical, it's still real. You might feel a lot better after you just allow yourself to be sad about this. Sounds like you like this friend, and you missed out on a fun trip. And now you feel left out and like you were deliberately excluded. That must hurt. Listen to some sad music or watch a sad video and wallow for a little while. For what it's worth, I've felt what you're feeling, and I don't think your desire to be with your friend is unkind or controlling. It would be controlling to act on those impulses. Feeling them is okay.
But then for later, when you're reframing:
- Does he see those other friends regularly at home? Because if not, he might have meant he's taking a break from his regular social circle. I can see myself doing this, but then still wanting to see friends in the area.
- Is there a chance your friend got lonely and very spontaneously made some plans with people? This could mean his retreat is working and he's gathered some energy to be social again. Good news!
- Maybe your friend has taken on a bit of a caretaker role for you? Not so much in practical ways, but emotionally. If that could be true, then your mere presence is draining, but not because of who you are! When I was in my early twenties and my sister was a young teenager, I often took care of her. She was self-sufficient in practice, hilarious, kind, smart, easygoing, and a joy to be with. But when I spent time with her, I always policed my words and wanted to set a good example at all times. I considered it my job to learn about her inner life and help her navigate school, friends, her own feelings, and life in general. I couldn't let go and be sad or weak myself. So I really had to take breaks from her, and sometimes that probably hurt her. I think she took it personally at times. But seriously, I loved hanging out with her and wouldn't have changed a thing about her. It wasn't her. It also wasn't me. It was our relationship, which was very good and healthy and happy, but not balanced, because not all relationships need to be. Now that she's an adult, she hasn't changed much, but she doesn't exhaust me anymore. We're balanced now.
posted by toucan at 7:21 PM on August 18 [10 favorites]
But then for later, when you're reframing:
- Does he see those other friends regularly at home? Because if not, he might have meant he's taking a break from his regular social circle. I can see myself doing this, but then still wanting to see friends in the area.
- Is there a chance your friend got lonely and very spontaneously made some plans with people? This could mean his retreat is working and he's gathered some energy to be social again. Good news!
- Maybe your friend has taken on a bit of a caretaker role for you? Not so much in practical ways, but emotionally. If that could be true, then your mere presence is draining, but not because of who you are! When I was in my early twenties and my sister was a young teenager, I often took care of her. She was self-sufficient in practice, hilarious, kind, smart, easygoing, and a joy to be with. But when I spent time with her, I always policed my words and wanted to set a good example at all times. I considered it my job to learn about her inner life and help her navigate school, friends, her own feelings, and life in general. I couldn't let go and be sad or weak myself. So I really had to take breaks from her, and sometimes that probably hurt her. I think she took it personally at times. But seriously, I loved hanging out with her and wouldn't have changed a thing about her. It wasn't her. It also wasn't me. It was our relationship, which was very good and healthy and happy, but not balanced, because not all relationships need to be. Now that she's an adult, she hasn't changed much, but she doesn't exhaust me anymore. We're balanced now.
posted by toucan at 7:21 PM on August 18 [10 favorites]
I don't think you're overreacting, it sucks to be excluded by a friend especially when you really wanted to do something, and do it together. But I also get your friend's position, or at least what I assume what it was: he wanted alone time and freedom and a chance to decompress. I don't think either of you were wrong. I wish your friend had welcomed you along the trip, but truthfully I might have done the same as your friend if I really needed some alone time. It likely had more to do with him, than it did with you. People are weird and unique and special and have their own reasons for behaving in certain ways. If I was you, I'd allow myself to be temporarily annoyed, privately, then shake my head about it and try to move on, by planning other things to look forward to. I wouldn't want to lose a friendship or waste any more energy on it.
posted by watrlily at 7:41 PM on August 18 [5 favorites]
posted by watrlily at 7:41 PM on August 18 [5 favorites]
Look, I'll be frank... this pattern has repeated itself over and over. Please understand that people have very different expectations of friendships with each individual friend, and that these expectations may change depending on the circumstances. Not all friends are close, even if you may think you're close with this particular person.
There are only select people who I would be comfortable hanging out with for the majority of a weekend. Likewise, I don't think there are many others who want to hang out with me for the same amount of time. That's life. There are people who I would love to chat, call, text, etc. with more often than is currently happening, but I understand that they're busy, have other priorities (including higher priority friendships), or need alone time. I respect them enough to let them make these decisions for themselves without getting worked up about it. I enjoy and cherish the times when we do hang out, text about silly stuff, whatever.
I honestly would feel disrespected if someone was upset about not hanging out during my vacation. It's my vacation -- I'm in charge of it, and I get to decide how I want to spend my time. The Sunday check-ins are also a bit bizarre to me. I don't have regular check-ins with friends while I'm traveling, and even if a friend was going somewhere that I'd like to visit, I don't expect them to regularly update me with what they're doing at their destination.
I agree with saturdaymornings.
posted by extramundane at 7:53 PM on August 18 [25 favorites]
There are only select people who I would be comfortable hanging out with for the majority of a weekend. Likewise, I don't think there are many others who want to hang out with me for the same amount of time. That's life. There are people who I would love to chat, call, text, etc. with more often than is currently happening, but I understand that they're busy, have other priorities (including higher priority friendships), or need alone time. I respect them enough to let them make these decisions for themselves without getting worked up about it. I enjoy and cherish the times when we do hang out, text about silly stuff, whatever.
I honestly would feel disrespected if someone was upset about not hanging out during my vacation. It's my vacation -- I'm in charge of it, and I get to decide how I want to spend my time. The Sunday check-ins are also a bit bizarre to me. I don't have regular check-ins with friends while I'm traveling, and even if a friend was going somewhere that I'd like to visit, I don't expect them to regularly update me with what they're doing at their destination.
I agree with saturdaymornings.
posted by extramundane at 7:53 PM on August 18 [25 favorites]
what can you do here except accept it and let it go? it’s already happened. you can’t control how people feel or the choices they make. but you can, as i suggested last time, figure out how to live the life you want by doing your own work. it’s the only work you can do.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 8:24 PM on August 18 [5 favorites]
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 8:24 PM on August 18 [5 favorites]
I'm so sorry. I think there is a disconnect in what you are asking for versus what your friend can provide.
Just because he is independent doesn't mean he can plan for and entertain the both of you. He is strong enough to plan and budget (time, energy
and money is probably part of it) for himself.
Think of an average to poor swimmer versus a lifeguard. He might think he needs to be the lifeguard if you go swimming with him, whereas he has only enough skill and stamina to get himself from A to B without drowning.
Maybe you don't see yourself as needing a lifeguard. But your friend does and he does not have lifeguard energy. He has it (health, energy or money) better than you, but he doesn't have "extra".
I think one of the biggest half truths people are fed is "just ask for help. No one can read your mind" and then not told how to cope when they ask and are told no. Or you ask for help and everyone disappears.
What no one tells you is ask for help, but don't assume the person who you are asking has the strength to help you just because they have it better than you. To go back to the money analogy, if you have $0 and I have $10, I have it more than 10x better than you, certainly. But I may not want to give you a $1. Im saving it to stretch out the days until I get to $0. I may not be able to give you that $1 without destabilizing myself.
If you have cancer and I have depression, I might have it better than you. But I can't plan from A to C. I can't predict I'll feel good on the day you come. I can't say 3 days of socializing won't eff me up for a week. I can't say spending money on 3 days of outings and making sure you have a worthwhile time won't effect my budget.
You gotta hang with people with lifeguard energy. I truly think those are the people who will satisfy you. Church groups or cancer support groups? I hope there is a group that can provide you with solace, support and companionship.
posted by jello at 8:25 PM on August 18 [21 favorites]
Just because he is independent doesn't mean he can plan for and entertain the both of you. He is strong enough to plan and budget (time, energy
and money is probably part of it) for himself.
Think of an average to poor swimmer versus a lifeguard. He might think he needs to be the lifeguard if you go swimming with him, whereas he has only enough skill and stamina to get himself from A to B without drowning.
Maybe you don't see yourself as needing a lifeguard. But your friend does and he does not have lifeguard energy. He has it (health, energy or money) better than you, but he doesn't have "extra".
I think one of the biggest half truths people are fed is "just ask for help. No one can read your mind" and then not told how to cope when they ask and are told no. Or you ask for help and everyone disappears.
What no one tells you is ask for help, but don't assume the person who you are asking has the strength to help you just because they have it better than you. To go back to the money analogy, if you have $0 and I have $10, I have it more than 10x better than you, certainly. But I may not want to give you a $1. Im saving it to stretch out the days until I get to $0. I may not be able to give you that $1 without destabilizing myself.
If you have cancer and I have depression, I might have it better than you. But I can't plan from A to C. I can't predict I'll feel good on the day you come. I can't say 3 days of socializing won't eff me up for a week. I can't say spending money on 3 days of outings and making sure you have a worthwhile time won't effect my budget.
You gotta hang with people with lifeguard energy. I truly think those are the people who will satisfy you. Church groups or cancer support groups? I hope there is a group that can provide you with solace, support and companionship.
posted by jello at 8:25 PM on August 18 [21 favorites]
The way that you talk about your friend and the planning and expectations around this in this and the previous question approaches how I might think about this with my long-term romantic life partner. (Ie, feeling like a month is a long time for them to be away, and wanting to maybe take a weekend with them, feeling hurt that they might say no to spending time with me but would be interested in spending time with other people)
If you don't have secret romantic feelings for this friend, I think you need to recalibrate; I would not have these feelings for even my closest and best nonromantic friends in such a situation.
posted by corb at 8:46 PM on August 18 [37 favorites]
If you don't have secret romantic feelings for this friend, I think you need to recalibrate; I would not have these feelings for even my closest and best nonromantic friends in such a situation.
posted by corb at 8:46 PM on August 18 [37 favorites]
People are allowed to change their minds about what they want to do on their vacation if their initial plans turn out to be less fun than they expected.
Stop taking everything so personally. Not everything is about you.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:01 PM on August 18 [24 favorites]
Stop taking everything so personally. Not everything is about you.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:01 PM on August 18 [24 favorites]
Obviously, he's allowed to change his mind (no control here on my part)
That's it. That's your takeaway. He's not doing anything here to hurt you; he's having "me time". "Me time" isn't living in monastic silence; maybe that was his original intent, but maybe after a few days, he got lonely or bored and changed his mind. That's fine! That's not a judgement about you. You and he are just friends, and while I don't mean to sound like an ass about it, he doesn't owe you any allegiance here.
and that my life is precious/short (~5 years left, possibly)
Then use that precious time doing only positive things for yourself, and not getting upset, depressed, or angry that other people in your orbit aren't doing things the way you want them to. Find another time to see this friend! See other friends! Do other things on your bucket list! Just...don't wallow. By your own admission, time here is limited, so don't waste another second of it like this.
I know that's easy to say and hard to do, but try to put all your energy in therapy towards that goal, and you'll be much more content in your day-to-day, I think.
Good luck and I hope you find peace of mind.
posted by pdb at 9:22 PM on August 18 [12 favorites]
That's it. That's your takeaway. He's not doing anything here to hurt you; he's having "me time". "Me time" isn't living in monastic silence; maybe that was his original intent, but maybe after a few days, he got lonely or bored and changed his mind. That's fine! That's not a judgement about you. You and he are just friends, and while I don't mean to sound like an ass about it, he doesn't owe you any allegiance here.
and that my life is precious/short (~5 years left, possibly)
Then use that precious time doing only positive things for yourself, and not getting upset, depressed, or angry that other people in your orbit aren't doing things the way you want them to. Find another time to see this friend! See other friends! Do other things on your bucket list! Just...don't wallow. By your own admission, time here is limited, so don't waste another second of it like this.
I know that's easy to say and hard to do, but try to put all your energy in therapy towards that goal, and you'll be much more content in your day-to-day, I think.
Good luck and I hope you find peace of mind.
posted by pdb at 9:22 PM on August 18 [12 favorites]
It makes me wonder if the "Sundays-only checkins" and "hard no to coming because self-time, but ends up hanging with friends anyway" means there's something wrong with me and/or the friendship.
So there's nothing fundamentally wrong with those things.
Having read your posts about friends for a long time, a few things stand out. One is that you seem to treat your friend's friends as fungible. Like, if Friend A spends time with Friend B then they should also want to have spent time with Friend C (you.)
But friendships are unique relationships, every pairing.
Another is you seem to have formed a notion of what a friend is at an early time in your life. I feel like you are so busy judging your friends against this idealized notion that you are failing to actually be able to be present in friendship some of the time. Friendship is sometimes about letting people fail us (or failing others).
You have to stop treating your friends having other friends or doing things without you or not meeting your needs as a betrayal...that's toxic.
If your feelings are leaking through, it may be that you are training this friend, who has been honest and forthright and caring from the sounds of it, to stop being honest with you. Is that what you want?
posted by warriorqueen at 9:30 PM on August 18 [24 favorites]
So there's nothing fundamentally wrong with those things.
Having read your posts about friends for a long time, a few things stand out. One is that you seem to treat your friend's friends as fungible. Like, if Friend A spends time with Friend B then they should also want to have spent time with Friend C (you.)
But friendships are unique relationships, every pairing.
Another is you seem to have formed a notion of what a friend is at an early time in your life. I feel like you are so busy judging your friends against this idealized notion that you are failing to actually be able to be present in friendship some of the time. Friendship is sometimes about letting people fail us (or failing others).
You have to stop treating your friends having other friends or doing things without you or not meeting your needs as a betrayal...that's toxic.
If your feelings are leaking through, it may be that you are training this friend, who has been honest and forthright and caring from the sounds of it, to stop being honest with you. Is that what you want?
posted by warriorqueen at 9:30 PM on August 18 [24 favorites]
Yeah, man.. this string of questions really only makes sense to me if you are romantically interested in this person. Are you? If so, you should probably figure out if he is interested in you too, and then go from there and either date, or not date and ratchet the intensity waaaaaay down.
posted by Alterscape at 9:31 PM on August 18 [10 favorites]
posted by Alterscape at 9:31 PM on August 18 [10 favorites]
I think "me time" can include other people. It's different to go on a trip alone and meet up with someone for a hike than it is to travel to a place with someone and spend the whole time with them. I'd still consider what your friend did "me time" and "being solo", and in the interest of your mental health you should too.
Also, Fall is a much better time to go to Maine (no black flies, lovely fall colors). You should plan yourself a lovely early autumn visit.
posted by Toddles at 9:36 PM on August 18 [14 favorites]
Also, Fall is a much better time to go to Maine (no black flies, lovely fall colors). You should plan yourself a lovely early autumn visit.
posted by Toddles at 9:36 PM on August 18 [14 favorites]
Agreed. "Me time" is having no responsibilities to anyone but yourself. Hiking with friends is me time if you don't have to do anything other than show up.
posted by jello at 9:49 PM on August 18 [8 favorites]
Maybe this will help a little bit. I think when you have some trauma and a difficult relationship with your family of origin… you might not graduate to developing normal adult friendships. This happened to me. In childhood our friendships can be intense and you can feel ownership and like friends belong to each other. That should kind of stop. But if you have trauma and that stops you from having the skills to develop your own actual intimate relationships as an adult, or you still have a complicated relationship with your family… you can end up trying to get support and feeling too intimate with people who are just your friends. And society says to do this to “find your tribe!” So I would say that you have an expectation of friendship that’s too high and that’s okay, you’re just a guy who is doing his best. It’s okay to feel hurt. Take a step back and see this as an opportunity to love yourself.
posted by pairofshades at 11:44 PM on August 18 [12 favorites]
posted by pairofshades at 11:44 PM on August 18 [12 favorites]
Many wise comments on this thread. I wanted to add:
Maine was on my bucket list, I was looking forward to seeing it
Then go!! Don’t wait for anyone to give you permission or tag along. Organise a trip yourself. Solo travel is freeing. Probably why your friend did it. Note I say ‘solo’ and not ‘alone’ trip. You do what you want, when you want.
posted by moiraine at 3:44 AM on August 19 [12 favorites]
Maine was on my bucket list, I was looking forward to seeing it
Then go!! Don’t wait for anyone to give you permission or tag along. Organise a trip yourself. Solo travel is freeing. Probably why your friend did it. Note I say ‘solo’ and not ‘alone’ trip. You do what you want, when you want.
posted by moiraine at 3:44 AM on August 19 [12 favorites]
It’s okay to feel however you feel, and a good idea to talk to your therapist about it. But I really think this is one to keep between you and your therapist, and not address with your friend.
As you say, your friend is allowed to change his mind. Or to be up for a couple of hours with people but not a couple of days. Or to not really want to see anyone but to make one or two exceptions for people in that area he otherwise wouldn’t ever get to see.
Doing weekly check-ins with you during his “me time” trip is already quite a lot for a friend to offer, and a strong indicator that he’s a good and caring friend to you.
posted by Stacey at 4:07 AM on August 19 [2 favorites]
As you say, your friend is allowed to change his mind. Or to be up for a couple of hours with people but not a couple of days. Or to not really want to see anyone but to make one or two exceptions for people in that area he otherwise wouldn’t ever get to see.
Doing weekly check-ins with you during his “me time” trip is already quite a lot for a friend to offer, and a strong indicator that he’s a good and caring friend to you.
posted by Stacey at 4:07 AM on August 19 [2 favorites]
I have friends I dearly love that I wouldn't even consider traveling with. It didn't mean I don't love them or want to spend time with them when we are both where we live, but it does mean I don't want to be responsible for their physical and emotional needs over a sustained period of time or I don't want them to be responsible for my physical and emotional needs over a sustained period of time.
posted by jacquilynne at 5:19 AM on August 19 [5 favorites]
posted by jacquilynne at 5:19 AM on August 19 [5 favorites]
During one of our check-ins, he mentioned he would meet up with a few mutual friends the state over to go hiking. During another check-in, he mentioned seeing some acquaintances in the area.
As an introvert, the difference between what you were offering (pre-planned weekend trip) and what sounds like a meet-up for a couple of hours planned during the trip is the level of obligation involved.
It can be very difficult as an introvert to determine ahead of time whether or not you'll have enough social battery or not, particularly if his stated goal was to refresh from living in a big city. I often dread making plans for this reason - depending on the days leading up to it, I may be really enthusiastic about them or may really need to bail. My favorite is a short-notice offer that is low-stakes because if I have the battery then great! And if not, that's fine too. So I think in general this feels very much like an introvert-going-about-the-world-thing. Not a "friend doesn't really like me" thing.
As a person with RSD (ADHD linked) as well, I can say that this and your general history of asking questions about friends are a great thing to bring to your new therapist because it feels like over and over, you go through this cycle of over-analyzing and often trying to have people respond in a certain way that feels like something therapy can help you get ahead of. Like literally print them out and give them to the therapist kind of thing - they're very well documented.
posted by openhearted at 5:25 AM on August 19 [18 favorites]
As an introvert, the difference between what you were offering (pre-planned weekend trip) and what sounds like a meet-up for a couple of hours planned during the trip is the level of obligation involved.
It can be very difficult as an introvert to determine ahead of time whether or not you'll have enough social battery or not, particularly if his stated goal was to refresh from living in a big city. I often dread making plans for this reason - depending on the days leading up to it, I may be really enthusiastic about them or may really need to bail. My favorite is a short-notice offer that is low-stakes because if I have the battery then great! And if not, that's fine too. So I think in general this feels very much like an introvert-going-about-the-world-thing. Not a "friend doesn't really like me" thing.
As a person with RSD (ADHD linked) as well, I can say that this and your general history of asking questions about friends are a great thing to bring to your new therapist because it feels like over and over, you go through this cycle of over-analyzing and often trying to have people respond in a certain way that feels like something therapy can help you get ahead of. Like literally print them out and give them to the therapist kind of thing - they're very well documented.
posted by openhearted at 5:25 AM on August 19 [18 favorites]
You seem to get up in your feels really intensely when your friends don't act the way you want them to. Were I your friend, I would find this exhausting, no matter how close we are.
Your friend had a vacation he wanted to have, it happened that there were other people he chose to see. He didn't do it going, "Ha ha! dubious_dude was deceived!" He was like, "okay I think I have some bandwidth to see folks who happen to be in the area. Why not?"
You do seem to put a lot of pressure on your friends to meet your needs first instead of their own. Or at least meet your compromises first. I understand you are seriously going through it with cancer, but honestly? You are expecting your social circle to think of every time they make plans or decide to do something. If you say you have a finite amount of time, do all the things you want to do! Go to Maine! Live this precious life you have and make your time count.
posted by Kitteh at 6:07 AM on August 19 [11 favorites]
Your friend had a vacation he wanted to have, it happened that there were other people he chose to see. He didn't do it going, "Ha ha! dubious_dude was deceived!" He was like, "okay I think I have some bandwidth to see folks who happen to be in the area. Why not?"
You do seem to put a lot of pressure on your friends to meet your needs first instead of their own. Or at least meet your compromises first. I understand you are seriously going through it with cancer, but honestly? You are expecting your social circle to think of every time they make plans or decide to do something. If you say you have a finite amount of time, do all the things you want to do! Go to Maine! Live this precious life you have and make your time count.
posted by Kitteh at 6:07 AM on August 19 [11 favorites]
I went back and skimmed your original post and this line stood out:
he wanted to take the whole month of August to disconnect and focus on himself, and that he didn't want to host anyone. [Emphasis added]
And he didn't host anyone - as other people have pointed out already, meeting up with some local friends for a hike is very low-effort. Whereas planning a weekend bucket-list vacation for a friend who has been dreaming about seeing Maine and has high expectations for the trip, that's high-effort. He would have felt responsible for your feelings and time during your visit, and it sounds like that was too much responsibility for him. If this is a pattern with this person, then this is probably not a friend to depend on for emotional needs - and that's okay! You can still enjoy the friendship for what it provides.
posted by coffeecat at 7:12 AM on August 19 [14 favorites]
he wanted to take the whole month of August to disconnect and focus on himself, and that he didn't want to host anyone. [Emphasis added]
And he didn't host anyone - as other people have pointed out already, meeting up with some local friends for a hike is very low-effort. Whereas planning a weekend bucket-list vacation for a friend who has been dreaming about seeing Maine and has high expectations for the trip, that's high-effort. He would have felt responsible for your feelings and time during your visit, and it sounds like that was too much responsibility for him. If this is a pattern with this person, then this is probably not a friend to depend on for emotional needs - and that's okay! You can still enjoy the friendship for what it provides.
posted by coffeecat at 7:12 AM on August 19 [14 favorites]
I'd nth all the general points above, that this person has done nothing wrong and you don't get to police their behaviour to the level you seem to want. That said:
You're in a really tricky hinterland with your particular prognosis. If you had, like 6 months left, it would totally feel right that your friends should be dropping everything to see you one more time. It would feel reasonable for you to expect them to prioritise you and your final wishes, knowing that this could be their last chance to be with you (while, at the same time, understanding that if they didn’t do that, they probably have their own complex stuff going on, you don’t have time to waste on working out what it is, and letting them go with good grace to to concentrate on the people who do show up for you).
However, at five years, there’s a mismatch. For you, everything is completely changed, life feels urgent, you know deeply that you’re no longer living the same life as your peers, and it feels like everyone else should see that. But for your friends, it’s hard to be at fever pitch and ‘must maximise every available minute with dubious_dude’ for five years. So they’re much more in normal life mode than you have the luxury to be. I think both sides are totally understandable, but that you might have to accept that your friends don't have the ability to value you at fever pitch for five years.
Lastly – I love the way you talk about seeing these feelings coming down the track towards you and wanting to take the chance to stop them. That’s such huge progress and emotional growth and is, really, all we can do in the face of these huge emotions that hurtle towards us sometimes, without our conscious bidding. Learning to recognise and redirect emotional reactions that harm us, is kind of the thrust behind loads of different approaches to improving mental health, from mindfulness to CBT to probably many others. Great work – and it's great that you have a good therapist to explore this with now.
posted by penguin pie at 7:17 AM on August 19 [9 favorites]
You're in a really tricky hinterland with your particular prognosis. If you had, like 6 months left, it would totally feel right that your friends should be dropping everything to see you one more time. It would feel reasonable for you to expect them to prioritise you and your final wishes, knowing that this could be their last chance to be with you (while, at the same time, understanding that if they didn’t do that, they probably have their own complex stuff going on, you don’t have time to waste on working out what it is, and letting them go with good grace to to concentrate on the people who do show up for you).
However, at five years, there’s a mismatch. For you, everything is completely changed, life feels urgent, you know deeply that you’re no longer living the same life as your peers, and it feels like everyone else should see that. But for your friends, it’s hard to be at fever pitch and ‘must maximise every available minute with dubious_dude’ for five years. So they’re much more in normal life mode than you have the luxury to be. I think both sides are totally understandable, but that you might have to accept that your friends don't have the ability to value you at fever pitch for five years.
Lastly – I love the way you talk about seeing these feelings coming down the track towards you and wanting to take the chance to stop them. That’s such huge progress and emotional growth and is, really, all we can do in the face of these huge emotions that hurtle towards us sometimes, without our conscious bidding. Learning to recognise and redirect emotional reactions that harm us, is kind of the thrust behind loads of different approaches to improving mental health, from mindfulness to CBT to probably many others. Great work – and it's great that you have a good therapist to explore this with now.
posted by penguin pie at 7:17 AM on August 19 [9 favorites]
I just want to mention that when I am really overwhelmed, I plan to see no one. But as my capacity returns a bit with solitude, I find that I am able to start initiating (and eventually looking forward to) low stakes time with more casual friends.
People, and their moods, aren't static. It is possible that when he made decision to go 100% solo and break plans with you, he was entirely burn out socially. But his capacity to socialize dribbled back, and he is making those casual hangout plans.
Gently, you're looking for a level of consistency and control that you can't healthily place on another person's mood and energy. Other people have their own gauges and emotional/energy tolerances that they have to honour, completely separately from their affection and capacity for friends.
Good on you for exploring your own feelings separately from your friend!
posted by Sauter Vaguely at 7:35 AM on August 19 [5 favorites]
People, and their moods, aren't static. It is possible that when he made decision to go 100% solo and break plans with you, he was entirely burn out socially. But his capacity to socialize dribbled back, and he is making those casual hangout plans.
Gently, you're looking for a level of consistency and control that you can't healthily place on another person's mood and energy. Other people have their own gauges and emotional/energy tolerances that they have to honour, completely separately from their affection and capacity for friends.
Good on you for exploring your own feelings separately from your friend!
posted by Sauter Vaguely at 7:35 AM on August 19 [5 favorites]
Just want to say: if you can stop the train, stop it! Why would't you? If you can choose to feel hurt or not, choose not to. For your own benefit.
posted by swheatie at 7:43 AM on August 19 [2 favorites]
posted by swheatie at 7:43 AM on August 19 [2 favorites]
It is none of your business what he did on his trip or who he saw.
posted by haplesschild at 8:20 AM on August 19 [17 favorites]
posted by haplesschild at 8:20 AM on August 19 [17 favorites]
There is a huge difference between traveling with someone and hanging with somebody for a day. I’m guessing if you told him you were going to drop by for a day during his vacation, he would be just fine with it.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:17 AM on August 19
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:17 AM on August 19
I actually wonder if it'd be better to just force your brain to do something else and NOT unpack this in therapy. I think for some people (certainly me, maybe you?) ruminating on issues I can't fix doesn't help solve the problem at all - and in fact, for me at least, detailed unpacking of my feelings of rejection or jealousy or inadequacy or resentment or hurt actually actively makes the problem worse.
For me personally, dwelling on a slight has these detrimental effects: it makes me feel shitty, lowers my self-esteem, makes me boring and needy, and reinforces patterns of desperation.
I'd rather use that time to DO something outward focussed, either to make something or help someone, so my self esteem and value RISES in a tangible, real way.
I remind myself that it's always a stroke of magical luck to find a person who wants to spend a lot of time with you. Just like it's lucky and kind of rare to find a wonderful life partner, it's also lucky and rare to find a close friend.
It might also be helpful to notice that many people who do appear to have lots of friends, manage to maintain that state at some invisible cost that might actually be considerable. For example, putting in the work and energy to project a really charming fun personality that energizes others while it may drain themself. Or being very giving with their time and energy and asking for very little in return. Or sharing desirable resources like giving people rides or hosting events. And likely TONS of overlooking a lot of small slights and concealing their negative emotions to keep things fun and maintain the peace. There are some things those "popular people" may be doing that you aren't doing or wouldn't want to.
But most importantly, Chemistry is fleeting and hard to find. So, just like not everyone you meet will want to have sex or date you, not everyone will want to be close friends with you or hang out at a given time. We have to just brush it off and move on.
Sometimes this kind of thing happens to me too, and I agree with you that it really hurts. I try to just MOVE ON and not dwell on it. I remind myself, not everyone I feel compatible with will feel compatible with me. Not everyone I'd love to spend time with sees me as a desirable pal to spend time with.
Not everyone I like will like me back in the same way. And that's just... it. That's the end of the sentence.
Say, " I feel hurt and rejected today, and that's valid. But that's part of life, I'm a good person, I'm a strong person, and I'll be ok." Then stop ruminating immediately and find something fun to do that will raise your value to yourself and others - make something or help someone!
posted by nouvelle-personne at 10:39 AM on August 19 [6 favorites]
For me personally, dwelling on a slight has these detrimental effects: it makes me feel shitty, lowers my self-esteem, makes me boring and needy, and reinforces patterns of desperation.
I'd rather use that time to DO something outward focussed, either to make something or help someone, so my self esteem and value RISES in a tangible, real way.
I remind myself that it's always a stroke of magical luck to find a person who wants to spend a lot of time with you. Just like it's lucky and kind of rare to find a wonderful life partner, it's also lucky and rare to find a close friend.
It might also be helpful to notice that many people who do appear to have lots of friends, manage to maintain that state at some invisible cost that might actually be considerable. For example, putting in the work and energy to project a really charming fun personality that energizes others while it may drain themself. Or being very giving with their time and energy and asking for very little in return. Or sharing desirable resources like giving people rides or hosting events. And likely TONS of overlooking a lot of small slights and concealing their negative emotions to keep things fun and maintain the peace. There are some things those "popular people" may be doing that you aren't doing or wouldn't want to.
But most importantly, Chemistry is fleeting and hard to find. So, just like not everyone you meet will want to have sex or date you, not everyone will want to be close friends with you or hang out at a given time. We have to just brush it off and move on.
Sometimes this kind of thing happens to me too, and I agree with you that it really hurts. I try to just MOVE ON and not dwell on it. I remind myself, not everyone I feel compatible with will feel compatible with me. Not everyone I'd love to spend time with sees me as a desirable pal to spend time with.
Not everyone I like will like me back in the same way. And that's just... it. That's the end of the sentence.
Say, " I feel hurt and rejected today, and that's valid. But that's part of life, I'm a good person, I'm a strong person, and I'll be ok." Then stop ruminating immediately and find something fun to do that will raise your value to yourself and others - make something or help someone!
posted by nouvelle-personne at 10:39 AM on August 19 [6 favorites]
This friend had explained that he planned to spend the trip in complete isolation, completely solo, and not interact with anyone in Maine other than his AirBnb mates (staying in a shared house situation), and obviously interactions with random strangers from time to time.
I bet your friend meant, "I plan to spend the trip in complete isolation, completely solo, and not interact with anyone in Maine other than on an absolutely spontaneous basis if, and only if, my mood at that moment allows." I guess he could have said to you, "Okay, you can come, but don't talk to me unless I talk to you first, and don't ask me to do anything with you. Instead, wait for me to speak first, and wait for me to ask you to do something with me." But that would have been a way worse way to get the message across that he needed space during this trip, and meeting those needs of his during his trip doesn't sound like it would have been fun for you.
posted by SageTrail at 10:44 AM on August 19 [3 favorites]
I bet your friend meant, "I plan to spend the trip in complete isolation, completely solo, and not interact with anyone in Maine other than on an absolutely spontaneous basis if, and only if, my mood at that moment allows." I guess he could have said to you, "Okay, you can come, but don't talk to me unless I talk to you first, and don't ask me to do anything with you. Instead, wait for me to speak first, and wait for me to ask you to do something with me." But that would have been a way worse way to get the message across that he needed space during this trip, and meeting those needs of his during his trip doesn't sound like it would have been fun for you.
posted by SageTrail at 10:44 AM on August 19 [3 favorites]
I simply accepted it as it was and let it go. I continued to feel somewhat hurt, but let it go and the hurt faded.
That right there is the key to living well.
Take this opportunity to cement it as a habit.
posted by flabdablet at 11:14 AM on August 19 [2 favorites]
That right there is the key to living well.
Take this opportunity to cement it as a habit.
posted by flabdablet at 11:14 AM on August 19 [2 favorites]
You're saying that "you backed off completely" but you haven't. At all.
You're still scrutinizing this person's decisions about who they want to meet up with and it's truly not okay.
They are allowed to make a plan for themselves and then change their mind.
They do not owe you explanations about how they spend their time.
Even if they were in a commited romantic relationship with you, your level of second guessing their decisions would be inappropriate.
If you've been asking for explanations, details etc the other person can either give you an answer you won't like or they can lie. You're not giving them any other option.
I mean, other than doing exactly what you want but they clearly don't want that.
You really need to back off. As in, stop dwelling on this altogether. Don't analyze it, don't ruminate, just tell yourself they are not available now and ask yourself what you'd be doing if they teleported to another universe.
posted by M. at 11:21 AM on August 19 [11 favorites]
You're still scrutinizing this person's decisions about who they want to meet up with and it's truly not okay.
They are allowed to make a plan for themselves and then change their mind.
They do not owe you explanations about how they spend their time.
Even if they were in a commited romantic relationship with you, your level of second guessing their decisions would be inappropriate.
If you've been asking for explanations, details etc the other person can either give you an answer you won't like or they can lie. You're not giving them any other option.
I mean, other than doing exactly what you want but they clearly don't want that.
You really need to back off. As in, stop dwelling on this altogether. Don't analyze it, don't ruminate, just tell yourself they are not available now and ask yourself what you'd be doing if they teleported to another universe.
posted by M. at 11:21 AM on August 19 [11 favorites]
I did some light research and there are Deaf communities in Maine that may have events that are fun bucket list type things
https://www.maine.gov/rehab/dod/resource_guide/orgs_deaf.shtml
The Maine Recreation Association of the Deaf sounds promising!
The Maine Recreation Association of the Deaf is a volunteer organization for deaf, hard-of-hearing and late-deafened people who want to participate in family activities. There are activities for all ages, including the Deaf Timberfest.
You may not be able to solve abandonment issues and pursue your bucket list at the same time, but maybe you can approach them separately and that way have fun and memorable experiences.
posted by jello at 11:25 AM on August 19 [5 favorites]
https://www.maine.gov/rehab/dod/resource_guide/orgs_deaf.shtml
The Maine Recreation Association of the Deaf sounds promising!
The Maine Recreation Association of the Deaf is a volunteer organization for deaf, hard-of-hearing and late-deafened people who want to participate in family activities. There are activities for all ages, including the Deaf Timberfest.
You may not be able to solve abandonment issues and pursue your bucket list at the same time, but maybe you can approach them separately and that way have fun and memorable experiences.
posted by jello at 11:25 AM on August 19 [5 favorites]
Alone time doesn't mean literally alone, no other living soul. It means "free from the usual obligations and routines" and it can be remarkably refreshing to do once in a while. Sometimes when you're "alone", you get a notion to go see someone you haven't for a long time, do something you hardly ever get to do. Or you can not do that. Freedom of choice, you can do things on a whim. Nobody's permission required, nobody else's needs to accommodate. Highly recommended. Sounds like that's exactly what he did, you're reading too much into the literal word "alone".
posted by ctmf at 11:29 AM on August 19 [8 favorites]
posted by ctmf at 11:29 AM on August 19 [8 favorites]
I’m so glad about the news about your immunotherapy and hope September goes well. And kudos for taking a pause and recognizing the train of thought and keeping the brakes on for a moment.
So, I’ve noticed a pattern with your friends posts and patterns can be disrupted.
You and friend make tentative plans. You get your hopes up and look forward to those plans.
Friend backs out or cancels those plans. You get in your feels: betrayed, misled, hurt, triggered. You work through those feelings and move on.
You hear about friend making similar plans with other people. You think: if they could do that with those friends, why couldn’t they do the same with me? Like warriorqueen said, you seem to treat your friends’ friends as fungible. You also say to yourself, “they said they were going to do X. Now they’re not.” In this case, you wrote “This friend had explained that he planned to spend the trip in complete isolation, completely solo, and not interact with anyone in Maine other than his AirBnb mates (staying in a shared house situation), and obviously interactions with random strangers from time to time… feeling hurt that he gave me a hard no because he wanted solo/alone time, but now he's seeing friends.” You do this weird… policing (?) and accounting/keeping score thing (you mention “complete isolation, completely solo” and then mention the “exceptions” to that – AirBnB mates, random strangers), and no one likes to be under surveillance (whether or not they know it), plus it’s a lot of mental work for you.
You also do this thing of making things about you (in your mind – even if you never say these things to them): you wanted to see Maine, you wanted to spend time with him, your life expectancy as of right now is about 5 years (which I realize is awful and devastating). You accept what he wants (which is different from what you want), but it seems like deep down you don’t really. You want what you want, and you seem to think that if your friends really cared about you, they’d do what you want. Because they seem to be doing it with other friends, right? And if they don’t, then that must mean you’re not good enough for your friends. Can you see the mental knot you’re creating?
The crux of it is this: “It makes me wonder if… there's something wrong with me and/or the friendship.” Really dig into why you think this with your therapist. You think you’re not good enough for your friend… but are your friends good enough for you? Because it seems like you get upset with them pretty regularly on this issue, you sort of police them (whether they know or not) and it feeds your “not good enough” brain weasel. This friend is already doing a lot by having weekly check ins and sending you photos – which he offered on his own. Is that good enough for you or not?
I think the solution is to switch the train to the other track, but you have to see clearly that it’s there: really accept your friends for who they are, shortcomings included, and value them in your life. I can hear you saying “I already do!” I kind of feel we wouldn’t be here if you did though. It seems like you’re trying to extract as much evidence of worthiness (EOW) from them as possible (because you don’t feel good about yourself as a person/friend) and you have this weird math going on: your EOW increases when they say they want to do things with you, it decreases when they cancel, you increase your self-worth again yourself (good!!!), and when friend does X activity with other friends, you believe X activity = Y activity that you wanted to do with them but they said no. Because they don’t want to do Y activity with you, this = you thinking you're not a good enough friend.
Obviously don’t accept bad treatment (and some friends have treated you badly in previous posts), but really learn to recognize who your friends are as people and not what they give you/do for you in terms of time/activities spent with you. And stop making things about you. Stop making their activities about you, and stop making why they don’t do those activities with you, about you.
Also, that’s great that you didn’t press your friend and you completely backed off. Progress! However, let’s have a thought experiment and see what would happen if you did. Maybe it would go something like this (note that I’m assuming the worst version of you):
You: so I thought you wanted to be completely alone on this trip but then you met up with friends? [This is quite interrogative, but I sense this is kind of what you want to ask him]
Friend: Yeah, I realized that it would be really easy to meet up with [friends] so I gave them a shout.
You: I’m sad that you decided to meet up with them and you weren’t ok with me coming to visit. I feel like I’m not good enough for you as a friend.
F: What? I’m not really sure how I’m supposed to respond to that or to make you feel better. [He’s now very uncomfortable, feels he did something wrong and doesn’t know what to do]
You: You could explain why you weren’t ok with me visiting for a weekend [again, this is very interrogative and will get you nowhere], or let me come visit for a weekend [this is very demanding and a huge imposition when he’s already said no].
F: [Feels backed into a corner. How is anyone supposed to respond to something like this? Even if he were to say why he didn’t want you to come, there’d be no explanation good enough, unless the answer is "let me go back in time and never say what I said" or if he let you come visit, it’d be under duress so no one wins here.]
You see how this would be completely unfair to do to a friend right? This would be how you become a bad friend and someone who people don’t want to be around. So I’m glad that you’re not bringing this up to him.
I hope you can see that this hypothetical conversation totally doesn’t make sense, there’s nothing your friend can do to make you feel better and he did nothing wrong. And yet, you still feel let down. I know you know that’s a you problem, not a him problem. You don’t feel good enough as a friend, you're looking him to make you whole (which is impossible), and if you were to have a convo like this with him, then ironically, he ends up feeling not good enough as a friend. Then he won’t want to be friends anymore and your worst nightmare becomes reality.
Can you imagine being your friend in this scenario and how you would feel? I think for you, your people-pleasing tendencies would be very activated and you’d end up doing something that you didn’t really want to do. And for what? People-pleasing doesn’t actually bring two people closer together.
At this point you can choose to believe that you’re not a good enough friend for him and be upset about this which really has no solution (other than to find friends who are exactly like you and will do everything you want when you want it – maybe go make (literally) some friends on an AI friends site), or you can choose to believe that you ARE a valued friend to him and the fact that he met with other friends is not some kind of statement on you or your friendship at all.
Anyway, hope this has helped. You ARE making great progress so keep going. Switch the train to the other track.
posted by foxjacket at 5:21 PM on August 19 [16 favorites]
So, I’ve noticed a pattern with your friends posts and patterns can be disrupted.
You and friend make tentative plans. You get your hopes up and look forward to those plans.
Friend backs out or cancels those plans. You get in your feels: betrayed, misled, hurt, triggered. You work through those feelings and move on.
You hear about friend making similar plans with other people. You think: if they could do that with those friends, why couldn’t they do the same with me? Like warriorqueen said, you seem to treat your friends’ friends as fungible. You also say to yourself, “they said they were going to do X. Now they’re not.” In this case, you wrote “This friend had explained that he planned to spend the trip in complete isolation, completely solo, and not interact with anyone in Maine other than his AirBnb mates (staying in a shared house situation), and obviously interactions with random strangers from time to time… feeling hurt that he gave me a hard no because he wanted solo/alone time, but now he's seeing friends.” You do this weird… policing (?) and accounting/keeping score thing (you mention “complete isolation, completely solo” and then mention the “exceptions” to that – AirBnB mates, random strangers), and no one likes to be under surveillance (whether or not they know it), plus it’s a lot of mental work for you.
You also do this thing of making things about you (in your mind – even if you never say these things to them): you wanted to see Maine, you wanted to spend time with him, your life expectancy as of right now is about 5 years (which I realize is awful and devastating). You accept what he wants (which is different from what you want), but it seems like deep down you don’t really. You want what you want, and you seem to think that if your friends really cared about you, they’d do what you want. Because they seem to be doing it with other friends, right? And if they don’t, then that must mean you’re not good enough for your friends. Can you see the mental knot you’re creating?
The crux of it is this: “It makes me wonder if… there's something wrong with me and/or the friendship.” Really dig into why you think this with your therapist. You think you’re not good enough for your friend… but are your friends good enough for you? Because it seems like you get upset with them pretty regularly on this issue, you sort of police them (whether they know or not) and it feeds your “not good enough” brain weasel. This friend is already doing a lot by having weekly check ins and sending you photos – which he offered on his own. Is that good enough for you or not?
I think the solution is to switch the train to the other track, but you have to see clearly that it’s there: really accept your friends for who they are, shortcomings included, and value them in your life. I can hear you saying “I already do!” I kind of feel we wouldn’t be here if you did though. It seems like you’re trying to extract as much evidence of worthiness (EOW) from them as possible (because you don’t feel good about yourself as a person/friend) and you have this weird math going on: your EOW increases when they say they want to do things with you, it decreases when they cancel, you increase your self-worth again yourself (good!!!), and when friend does X activity with other friends, you believe X activity = Y activity that you wanted to do with them but they said no. Because they don’t want to do Y activity with you, this = you thinking you're not a good enough friend.
Obviously don’t accept bad treatment (and some friends have treated you badly in previous posts), but really learn to recognize who your friends are as people and not what they give you/do for you in terms of time/activities spent with you. And stop making things about you. Stop making their activities about you, and stop making why they don’t do those activities with you, about you.
Also, that’s great that you didn’t press your friend and you completely backed off. Progress! However, let’s have a thought experiment and see what would happen if you did. Maybe it would go something like this (note that I’m assuming the worst version of you):
You: so I thought you wanted to be completely alone on this trip but then you met up with friends? [This is quite interrogative, but I sense this is kind of what you want to ask him]
Friend: Yeah, I realized that it would be really easy to meet up with [friends] so I gave them a shout.
You: I’m sad that you decided to meet up with them and you weren’t ok with me coming to visit. I feel like I’m not good enough for you as a friend.
F: What? I’m not really sure how I’m supposed to respond to that or to make you feel better. [He’s now very uncomfortable, feels he did something wrong and doesn’t know what to do]
You: You could explain why you weren’t ok with me visiting for a weekend [again, this is very interrogative and will get you nowhere], or let me come visit for a weekend [this is very demanding and a huge imposition when he’s already said no].
F: [Feels backed into a corner. How is anyone supposed to respond to something like this? Even if he were to say why he didn’t want you to come, there’d be no explanation good enough, unless the answer is "let me go back in time and never say what I said" or if he let you come visit, it’d be under duress so no one wins here.]
You see how this would be completely unfair to do to a friend right? This would be how you become a bad friend and someone who people don’t want to be around. So I’m glad that you’re not bringing this up to him.
I hope you can see that this hypothetical conversation totally doesn’t make sense, there’s nothing your friend can do to make you feel better and he did nothing wrong. And yet, you still feel let down. I know you know that’s a you problem, not a him problem. You don’t feel good enough as a friend, you're looking him to make you whole (which is impossible), and if you were to have a convo like this with him, then ironically, he ends up feeling not good enough as a friend. Then he won’t want to be friends anymore and your worst nightmare becomes reality.
Can you imagine being your friend in this scenario and how you would feel? I think for you, your people-pleasing tendencies would be very activated and you’d end up doing something that you didn’t really want to do. And for what? People-pleasing doesn’t actually bring two people closer together.
At this point you can choose to believe that you’re not a good enough friend for him and be upset about this which really has no solution (other than to find friends who are exactly like you and will do everything you want when you want it – maybe go make (literally) some friends on an AI friends site), or you can choose to believe that you ARE a valued friend to him and the fact that he met with other friends is not some kind of statement on you or your friendship at all.
Anyway, hope this has helped. You ARE making great progress so keep going. Switch the train to the other track.
posted by foxjacket at 5:21 PM on August 19 [16 favorites]
I think it would be great for you to plan a trip to Maine by yourself after this friend comes home. You want to go, you are willing to go and stay in a hotel for a few days by yourself right now... why not just do it in a few weeks?
I used to make my own plans for myself contingent on being included by others but that left me sad, lonely, and with a lack of experiences in the world that I really wanted to have. It made me jealous of my friends and bitter about stuff and actually lost me friendships. Now I do things on my own when I can't find a buddy to do them with me and it's very rewarding. Go to Maine! Make yourself an itinerary and go for it on your own. It will be great.
posted by twelve cent archie at 11:49 AM on August 20 [3 favorites]
I used to make my own plans for myself contingent on being included by others but that left me sad, lonely, and with a lack of experiences in the world that I really wanted to have. It made me jealous of my friends and bitter about stuff and actually lost me friendships. Now I do things on my own when I can't find a buddy to do them with me and it's very rewarding. Go to Maine! Make yourself an itinerary and go for it on your own. It will be great.
posted by twelve cent archie at 11:49 AM on August 20 [3 favorites]
It’s fine that your friend had a change of heart and decided he could handle some socializing once he got to Maine, but I think it was crappy of him to tell you about it. If I told a friend they couldn’t join me on a trip because I needed alone time and then I wound up hanging out with another friend, I certainly wouldn’t mention it to the first friend and risk hurting their feelings. I think your friend has poor judgment and isn’t reading the room. I also agree with those who suggested you should go to Maine alone. Don’t wait to do the things you want to do!
posted by whitelily at 7:06 PM on August 21 [2 favorites]
posted by whitelily at 7:06 PM on August 21 [2 favorites]
I get that this hurts. Last November, I was having a tough month, and two friends of mine met up for coffee one Friday morning when I was also free, when friend 1 was in friend 2's neighborhood. And my first reaction was feeling excluded, even though I live miles away, and it had absolutely nothing to do with me! Like, my friends can get together without me. Of course they can!
Your friend's trip and his decisions there have nothing to do with you. I don't mean that negatively. I mean, it's not about you. When he wanted some me time, and solo time, he probably really did! And now he's recharging. He gets to do what he wants.
He also doesn't have any obligation to help you complete your bucket list. You can go to Maine at any time. I get it would be more fun to go with a friend. But, I think it might be good if you just planned a trip.
posted by bluedaisy at 5:30 PM on August 22 [2 favorites]
Your friend's trip and his decisions there have nothing to do with you. I don't mean that negatively. I mean, it's not about you. When he wanted some me time, and solo time, he probably really did! And now he's recharging. He gets to do what he wants.
He also doesn't have any obligation to help you complete your bucket list. You can go to Maine at any time. I get it would be more fun to go with a friend. But, I think it might be good if you just planned a trip.
posted by bluedaisy at 5:30 PM on August 22 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for all of your thoughts. I know my response is brief, but the responses here was a lot to process.
One thing is for sure — I will definitely not bring this up with the friend at all.
Have a great weekend!
posted by dubious_dude at 11:30 AM on August 23 [3 favorites]
One thing is for sure — I will definitely not bring this up with the friend at all.
Have a great weekend!
posted by dubious_dude at 11:30 AM on August 23 [3 favorites]
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It sounds like you would have expected a lot of handholding throughout the trip, and don't really take "no" for an answer easily. If he was trying to decompress, I can see why he'd say he was doing it for 100% alone time, then find that he has energy for low-effort hanging out with people once the trip is actually happening. That's different from it being a trip "with" someone, where you're expected to coordinate with the other person, even if they are in their own hotel.
posted by sagc at 6:47 PM on August 18 [73 favorites]