I am the exasperated father of a 14-year-old daughter seeking advice.
January 19, 2024 7:53 AM Subscribe
Not looking for sympathy as the parent of a teenager, but rather some possible solutions and next steps for my daughter's issues with school (academic and otherwise), anxiety, confidence/ image issues, seething resentment and growing anger issues at home.....
Help, please?
I will attempt to avoid a novel, but suspect that at some point it will become one. I also feel that this is a selfish element to this whereby I require a platform by which to rant. But otherwise, would really appreciate some teenaged parenting advice from a) parents of teenagers (past and present) and/ or b) former teenaged girls who can provide some insight into what I may be doing wrong and suggested approaches.
All that being said, I love by daughter and want her to be happy.
Background
We are a family unit of three, with an only child (our 14-year-old daughter).
My daughter and I have always had a very close relationship from her early childhood. We have a close bond, have very similar personalities, and have had a generally loving, caring relationship over time.
In the last few years (pandemic stress/ remote schooling notwithstanding), things have become more frayed, and I have been steeling myself for the teen years anticipating rough seas, while hoping that things wouldn't get too bad.
I preface all of this by saying that I am a very hands-on, involved father. School, extracurricular, life in general (proffering advice, requested or not), I am always "there".
We always talk, and she has no problem (in calmer moments), coming to me for help, asking my opinion, etc. In addition, mom tends to avoid stress, and has somewhat sunk into the background during all of this (by her own admission) to stay out of the line of fire. While I understand the coping mechanism, this is not how I operate nor do I think it is effective.
I further preface all of this by saying that I know what it's like to be 14 (not a girl mind you, and not in 2024 with social media, etc.). But I remember. And ninth grade sucked. And I know what it's like to have parents and feel like they're clueless. And I know that other parents (of multiple children) have it worse. And I know it will pass. And I'm trying to not take any of it personally.
But.
School, Academically
She is struggling academically in ninth grade, despite attempts over the summer to prepare her with respect to time management, and expectations generally.
Her issues with math (I had the same) are veering towards summer school make up credits, and she is in the middle of exam season and incredibly stressed by what appears to be a looming 'F'. I have had several conversations with her teachers, guidance counsellor(s), and have arranged for both peer student and external tutors.
But she is failing, and the pressure is getting to her. I am not super concerned, as she is otherwise a bright kid who needs to work on the "spinning plates" and time management that come with an increased workload at school. Nor do I have exceptionally high expectations academically as long as the effort is there, which it is.
School, Socially
She seems otherwise well adjusted at school, appears to be fitting in, and has a small circle of friends.
My primary concern, however, appears to be the way in which she amplifies things that do not go her way (from grades to minutia), twinned with borderline compulsive obsession with her clothes and/ or appearance while getting ready in the morning.
Yes, I know she's 14. However, looking for the perfect hoodie, jeans, etc. is making her late for school. She is late for classes. She is missing the math class that she is failing. I am then attempting damage control at school with things like attendance, emailing teachers, etc.
A Temperament of Catastrophizing
At the heart of the issue (I feel) is her propensity to catastrophize. This concerns me deeply, and she has always been like this even before the teen years hit.
For instance, if her hair looks "bad" in the morning, a spiral begins. Something else will inevitably occur to "ruin" her day, she gets into a panic, gets upset, feeling upset further exacerbates her feeling that the day has gone into a tailspin, and she will either lash out or withdraw. The day is then out of reach, and she will take hours to calm down and recalibrate.
My concern is, what happens when she's older (with a presumably fully developed prefrontal cortex and ability to regulate her emotions better), and the "real" hard stuff in life starts to come at her? If this is her reaction to a wrinkled sweater, what then?
Despite long, repeated conversations with her to help her mitigate this way of thinking and mindset, it will repeatedly occur.
Her Recent Behavior
She's a good kid. Loving, empathetic, funny, intelligent. She otherwise has a good head on her shoulders, runs in good circles, enjoys reading and her dog and cat, and in her better moments is a joy to be around.
But there are times recently where I feel like I am dealing with another being that has taken over her brain/ emotions. There are violent outbursts at times, often as a result of me saying a sentence that upset her, asking the wrong thing, looking the wrong way. There are often tears and screaming. It is nearly always one-way, and nearly always directed at myself.
My Reaction/ Approach
I find myself in a situation where I am unable to rationalize a solution, because I am not dealing with a rational party most of the time. The tools that have worked in the past no longer work, and I am not sure quite what I am dealing with here (making it difficult to assess).
Some days I feel I am being too lenient. Some days I feel I should let her fail, screw up, burn her hand on the oven and have to dig out of whatever hole she digs for herself (I KNOW I have to do this, but it is very, very difficult).
Some days I feel I am too heavy-handed and "too" present. Sometimes I feel I am not giving her enough space, and am too involved for a child (?) who is naturally exploring her desire to be independent, question everything, and think that her parents don't know everything.
I don't know if therapy is the route here (she went to an "assessment" in December and I believe it went OK, but she told me she never wants to return as it is a waste of time).
Family therapy? Me therapy? Back off? Turn into a disciplinarian? Talk more? Talk less?
At the end of the day, I just want what is best for her, for her to not screw up too much, to be aware that this will pass, and to understand that I love her.
I am sad and confused and would appreciate any advice (even "you're the Dad of a teenager, deal with it").
I will attempt to avoid a novel, but suspect that at some point it will become one. I also feel that this is a selfish element to this whereby I require a platform by which to rant. But otherwise, would really appreciate some teenaged parenting advice from a) parents of teenagers (past and present) and/ or b) former teenaged girls who can provide some insight into what I may be doing wrong and suggested approaches.
All that being said, I love by daughter and want her to be happy.
Background
We are a family unit of three, with an only child (our 14-year-old daughter).
My daughter and I have always had a very close relationship from her early childhood. We have a close bond, have very similar personalities, and have had a generally loving, caring relationship over time.
In the last few years (pandemic stress/ remote schooling notwithstanding), things have become more frayed, and I have been steeling myself for the teen years anticipating rough seas, while hoping that things wouldn't get too bad.
I preface all of this by saying that I am a very hands-on, involved father. School, extracurricular, life in general (proffering advice, requested or not), I am always "there".
We always talk, and she has no problem (in calmer moments), coming to me for help, asking my opinion, etc. In addition, mom tends to avoid stress, and has somewhat sunk into the background during all of this (by her own admission) to stay out of the line of fire. While I understand the coping mechanism, this is not how I operate nor do I think it is effective.
I further preface all of this by saying that I know what it's like to be 14 (not a girl mind you, and not in 2024 with social media, etc.). But I remember. And ninth grade sucked. And I know what it's like to have parents and feel like they're clueless. And I know that other parents (of multiple children) have it worse. And I know it will pass. And I'm trying to not take any of it personally.
But.
School, Academically
She is struggling academically in ninth grade, despite attempts over the summer to prepare her with respect to time management, and expectations generally.
Her issues with math (I had the same) are veering towards summer school make up credits, and she is in the middle of exam season and incredibly stressed by what appears to be a looming 'F'. I have had several conversations with her teachers, guidance counsellor(s), and have arranged for both peer student and external tutors.
But she is failing, and the pressure is getting to her. I am not super concerned, as she is otherwise a bright kid who needs to work on the "spinning plates" and time management that come with an increased workload at school. Nor do I have exceptionally high expectations academically as long as the effort is there, which it is.
School, Socially
She seems otherwise well adjusted at school, appears to be fitting in, and has a small circle of friends.
My primary concern, however, appears to be the way in which she amplifies things that do not go her way (from grades to minutia), twinned with borderline compulsive obsession with her clothes and/ or appearance while getting ready in the morning.
Yes, I know she's 14. However, looking for the perfect hoodie, jeans, etc. is making her late for school. She is late for classes. She is missing the math class that she is failing. I am then attempting damage control at school with things like attendance, emailing teachers, etc.
A Temperament of Catastrophizing
At the heart of the issue (I feel) is her propensity to catastrophize. This concerns me deeply, and she has always been like this even before the teen years hit.
For instance, if her hair looks "bad" in the morning, a spiral begins. Something else will inevitably occur to "ruin" her day, she gets into a panic, gets upset, feeling upset further exacerbates her feeling that the day has gone into a tailspin, and she will either lash out or withdraw. The day is then out of reach, and she will take hours to calm down and recalibrate.
My concern is, what happens when she's older (with a presumably fully developed prefrontal cortex and ability to regulate her emotions better), and the "real" hard stuff in life starts to come at her? If this is her reaction to a wrinkled sweater, what then?
Despite long, repeated conversations with her to help her mitigate this way of thinking and mindset, it will repeatedly occur.
Her Recent Behavior
She's a good kid. Loving, empathetic, funny, intelligent. She otherwise has a good head on her shoulders, runs in good circles, enjoys reading and her dog and cat, and in her better moments is a joy to be around.
But there are times recently where I feel like I am dealing with another being that has taken over her brain/ emotions. There are violent outbursts at times, often as a result of me saying a sentence that upset her, asking the wrong thing, looking the wrong way. There are often tears and screaming. It is nearly always one-way, and nearly always directed at myself.
My Reaction/ Approach
I find myself in a situation where I am unable to rationalize a solution, because I am not dealing with a rational party most of the time. The tools that have worked in the past no longer work, and I am not sure quite what I am dealing with here (making it difficult to assess).
Some days I feel I am being too lenient. Some days I feel I should let her fail, screw up, burn her hand on the oven and have to dig out of whatever hole she digs for herself (I KNOW I have to do this, but it is very, very difficult).
Some days I feel I am too heavy-handed and "too" present. Sometimes I feel I am not giving her enough space, and am too involved for a child (?) who is naturally exploring her desire to be independent, question everything, and think that her parents don't know everything.
I don't know if therapy is the route here (she went to an "assessment" in December and I believe it went OK, but she told me she never wants to return as it is a waste of time).
Family therapy? Me therapy? Back off? Turn into a disciplinarian? Talk more? Talk less?
At the end of the day, I just want what is best for her, for her to not screw up too much, to be aware that this will pass, and to understand that I love her.
I am sad and confused and would appreciate any advice (even "you're the Dad of a teenager, deal with it").
My primary concern, however, appears to be the way in which she amplifies things that do not go her way (from grades to minutia), twinned with borderline compulsive obsession with her clothes and/ or appearance while getting ready in the morning.
At the heart of the issue (I feel) is her propensity to catastrophize. This concerns me deeply, and she has always been like this even before the teen years hit.
For instance, if her hair looks "bad" in the morning, a spiral begins. Something else will inevitably occur to "ruin" her day, she gets into a panic, gets upset, feeling upset further exacerbates her feeling that the day has gone into a tailspin, and she will either lash out or withdraw. The day is then out of reach, and she will take hours to calm down and recalibrate.
My kids aren't teens but they are anxious, and all of this sounds very much like an anxiety disorder. I would have her assessed for anxiety. If that is the cause, medication and therapy combined will likely help quite a bit.
posted by castlebravo at 8:16 AM on January 19 [13 favorites]
At the heart of the issue (I feel) is her propensity to catastrophize. This concerns me deeply, and she has always been like this even before the teen years hit.
For instance, if her hair looks "bad" in the morning, a spiral begins. Something else will inevitably occur to "ruin" her day, she gets into a panic, gets upset, feeling upset further exacerbates her feeling that the day has gone into a tailspin, and she will either lash out or withdraw. The day is then out of reach, and she will take hours to calm down and recalibrate.
My kids aren't teens but they are anxious, and all of this sounds very much like an anxiety disorder. I would have her assessed for anxiety. If that is the cause, medication and therapy combined will likely help quite a bit.
posted by castlebravo at 8:16 AM on January 19 [13 favorites]
Former teenage girl here. Your daughter’s brain is undergoing major transforming here. I would begin with the understanding that she is exhausted and overwhelmed everyday and all the time. It’s a weird time because you actually DO have a lot of energy but your brain and body are so overstimulated with changes that you are completely overwhelmed and exhausted too. Think about what it feels like to you when you are totally wrung out and on edge and what you need from others in your life.
The best things my parents did for teenage me was give me the following messages:
- you can always come to us. If you have something you need to tell us, just say that and we promise we will not get mad and we will help you (then stuck to that)
- we will pick you up from any situation at any time, no questions asked
- you always have choices. You are never trapped. If you feel trapped, come to us and we will help you
- we love you and will always be there for you
Believe your daughter that if she feels something is important, it is. Self-esteem is incredibly important for teenage girls’s well being. So how she dresses and if she feels good about is actually important. You could ask her to select her outfit the night before or narrow down the choices. Or ask her to brainstorm how she can have both time to pick and time to get to school on time. Regarding math and failing — are there any remedial classes she can switch to? Are her teachers aware that the effort is being put in?
posted by CMcG at 8:19 AM on January 19 [44 favorites]
The best things my parents did for teenage me was give me the following messages:
- you can always come to us. If you have something you need to tell us, just say that and we promise we will not get mad and we will help you (then stuck to that)
- we will pick you up from any situation at any time, no questions asked
- you always have choices. You are never trapped. If you feel trapped, come to us and we will help you
- we love you and will always be there for you
Believe your daughter that if she feels something is important, it is. Self-esteem is incredibly important for teenage girls’s well being. So how she dresses and if she feels good about is actually important. You could ask her to select her outfit the night before or narrow down the choices. Or ask her to brainstorm how she can have both time to pick and time to get to school on time. Regarding math and failing — are there any remedial classes she can switch to? Are her teachers aware that the effort is being put in?
posted by CMcG at 8:19 AM on January 19 [44 favorites]
You are the dad of a teenager, and I think some you-therapy would be helpful.
Truthfully it does not sound like there are any very big problems. She is making some academic stumbles and having trouble with emotional regulation, taking it out on you because you are a safe person. With time and experience she will grow and change. If she needs to experience what it’s like to fail a class and have to make it up in summer school, is that so bad? It is good to know that if you fail, you can keep trying. If she needs to experience missing out on things because she fixated on her hair and missed a bus or whatever, that’s also a good opportunity for her to learn about prioritization and punctuality. In neither of these scenarios is she hurt, or kept from opportunities in the future.
Is she hurting you or other people? It sounds like she isn’t hurting others but may be hurting you, and that’s not okay but you can work on that as its own problem. Teaching her how to apologize and use conflict resolution skills is invaluable, and can be separate from her learning to be ready on time or learning math. You also can work on learning to separate being hurt by her lashing out at you and being hurt by her behaving against your expectations elsewhere.
Therapy seems like a good idea. You may learn coping techniques you can share with her, and help work out strategies to help her prioritize better or be more punctual. You may learn conflict resolution skills as well. You may model therapy as something useful and worth your time to her so she can think of it as something beneficial if she encounters bigger life challenges. But most importantly it sounds like your exasperation and exhaustion deserve an outlet and therapy is good for that. By speaking about it with a therapist you are not throwing it back at your kid or laying it on your spouse. By giving yourself space to analyze it and revisit your interactions you may be able to go about your days more normally without focusing on it all since you know you’ll give it attention later. And it can help you learn how to let your daughter make mistakes and delineate between mistakes you do and do not need to help her with.
Of course you can also explore lots of ways to directly help her, as people have suggested above. I think working with her on getting things prepared the night before for a better morning is a good idea, and adjusting bed times. Also exploring anxiety and figuring out what is transient and what might be a lot more responsive to medication or other focused treatment. I would work hard on pulling her mom into the loop also, so you are all supporting each other.
posted by Mizu at 8:26 AM on January 19 [25 favorites]
Truthfully it does not sound like there are any very big problems. She is making some academic stumbles and having trouble with emotional regulation, taking it out on you because you are a safe person. With time and experience she will grow and change. If she needs to experience what it’s like to fail a class and have to make it up in summer school, is that so bad? It is good to know that if you fail, you can keep trying. If she needs to experience missing out on things because she fixated on her hair and missed a bus or whatever, that’s also a good opportunity for her to learn about prioritization and punctuality. In neither of these scenarios is she hurt, or kept from opportunities in the future.
Is she hurting you or other people? It sounds like she isn’t hurting others but may be hurting you, and that’s not okay but you can work on that as its own problem. Teaching her how to apologize and use conflict resolution skills is invaluable, and can be separate from her learning to be ready on time or learning math. You also can work on learning to separate being hurt by her lashing out at you and being hurt by her behaving against your expectations elsewhere.
Therapy seems like a good idea. You may learn coping techniques you can share with her, and help work out strategies to help her prioritize better or be more punctual. You may learn conflict resolution skills as well. You may model therapy as something useful and worth your time to her so she can think of it as something beneficial if she encounters bigger life challenges. But most importantly it sounds like your exasperation and exhaustion deserve an outlet and therapy is good for that. By speaking about it with a therapist you are not throwing it back at your kid or laying it on your spouse. By giving yourself space to analyze it and revisit your interactions you may be able to go about your days more normally without focusing on it all since you know you’ll give it attention later. And it can help you learn how to let your daughter make mistakes and delineate between mistakes you do and do not need to help her with.
Of course you can also explore lots of ways to directly help her, as people have suggested above. I think working with her on getting things prepared the night before for a better morning is a good idea, and adjusting bed times. Also exploring anxiety and figuring out what is transient and what might be a lot more responsive to medication or other focused treatment. I would work hard on pulling her mom into the loop also, so you are all supporting each other.
posted by Mizu at 8:26 AM on January 19 [25 favorites]
I agree that she should be assessed for anxiety. And ADHD. And also for dyscalculia because if she is truly on her way to getting an F in math, I don't believe that's normal.
I am the mom of a 13-year old daughter. I understand your dilemma. I agonize, truly AGONIZE daily over what's going on in her head, if she's ok, if she needs interventions, if I should be tougher, if I should be more lenient. Lately I'm in tears over it to the point where I probably need to go to therapy. It's painful, stressful and it feels like the stakes are so, so high. It doesn't help any that all over my social media lately grown ups are talking endlessly about how shitty their parents were.
What I try to anchor myself with is my belief that the most important thing you can do for your kids is to hold a safe and loving space for them. I can try to be the rock or the base from which she can overcome almost any problem, from mental illness to failed grades to who knows. And I don't know that it's necessarily bad that your wife isn't as involved as you are. Have you considered that your daughter might at certain times find your approach intrusive? So that she may prefer your wife to be more hands off during these times? At other times she might flip and prefer your approach over your wife's. I see advantages in having two parents with different approaches.
Hugs. You really sound like an excellent, excellent dad. You are doing a good job.
posted by kitcat at 8:36 AM on January 19 [13 favorites]
I am the mom of a 13-year old daughter. I understand your dilemma. I agonize, truly AGONIZE daily over what's going on in her head, if she's ok, if she needs interventions, if I should be tougher, if I should be more lenient. Lately I'm in tears over it to the point where I probably need to go to therapy. It's painful, stressful and it feels like the stakes are so, so high. It doesn't help any that all over my social media lately grown ups are talking endlessly about how shitty their parents were.
What I try to anchor myself with is my belief that the most important thing you can do for your kids is to hold a safe and loving space for them. I can try to be the rock or the base from which she can overcome almost any problem, from mental illness to failed grades to who knows. And I don't know that it's necessarily bad that your wife isn't as involved as you are. Have you considered that your daughter might at certain times find your approach intrusive? So that she may prefer your wife to be more hands off during these times? At other times she might flip and prefer your approach over your wife's. I see advantages in having two parents with different approaches.
Hugs. You really sound like an excellent, excellent dad. You are doing a good job.
posted by kitcat at 8:36 AM on January 19 [13 favorites]
I was about 15 when I failed a math class and had to go to summer school. There were no other options. What helped me get through that was having encouragement that it wasn’t the end of the world. Understanding that I wasn’t a bad person or even a bad student just because I wasn’t good at math (I actually think I have dyscalculia but was never diagnosed).
At the same time it would’ve been unacceptable for me to miss the class I was failing. So for me, getting that lesson that this wasn’t a tragedy, and it sucked, but that I couldn’t ignore it, helped me get through that difficult period.
(And in retrospect wishing I and the adults in my life knew what dyscalculia is.)
posted by girlmightlive at 8:38 AM on January 19 [7 favorites]
At the same time it would’ve been unacceptable for me to miss the class I was failing. So for me, getting that lesson that this wasn’t a tragedy, and it sucked, but that I couldn’t ignore it, helped me get through that difficult period.
(And in retrospect wishing I and the adults in my life knew what dyscalculia is.)
posted by girlmightlive at 8:38 AM on January 19 [7 favorites]
I think Mizu’s on to something — that is, it sounds like your daughter is anxious, and it’s hard to tell from here what she directly needs in support for that: maybe therapy, maybe meds, maybe just sort of waiting out a rocky adolescent period.
But it also sounds like as a result of her anxiety she’s mistreating you and her mother, enough that her mother has withdrawn from her, and that’s a problem for the whole family and for your daughter as well. And as a parent it is your job to try to teach her not to do that.
I don’t mean that you should be punitive or anything, but you’re talking about violent outbursts, and lashing out, and her mother staying out of the line of fire. Can you draw a firmer line about how your daughter is allowed to treat you and her mother? If she has a concrete problem you can help solving, you’re there. If she needs someone to listen to her feelings generally, you’re available. But if she’s being irrationally angry and hostile, I think it’s legitimate of you to say that she can’t direct that at you, and tell her to go to her room or someplace away from you until she can pull herself together and treat you decently.
And of course it all depends on what her issues are — there are certainly some people for which this sort of self control isn’t possible at all. But at that point, I do think you really need to explore professional medical treatment.
posted by LizardBreath at 8:40 AM on January 19 [4 favorites]
But it also sounds like as a result of her anxiety she’s mistreating you and her mother, enough that her mother has withdrawn from her, and that’s a problem for the whole family and for your daughter as well. And as a parent it is your job to try to teach her not to do that.
I don’t mean that you should be punitive or anything, but you’re talking about violent outbursts, and lashing out, and her mother staying out of the line of fire. Can you draw a firmer line about how your daughter is allowed to treat you and her mother? If she has a concrete problem you can help solving, you’re there. If she needs someone to listen to her feelings generally, you’re available. But if she’s being irrationally angry and hostile, I think it’s legitimate of you to say that she can’t direct that at you, and tell her to go to her room or someplace away from you until she can pull herself together and treat you decently.
And of course it all depends on what her issues are — there are certainly some people for which this sort of self control isn’t possible at all. But at that point, I do think you really need to explore professional medical treatment.
posted by LizardBreath at 8:40 AM on January 19 [4 favorites]
How aware of you of where and how much she spends time online/ on social media? If she regularly spends hours down a TikTok/ Youtube/ Instagram rabbithole of influencer content about perfect fashion choices and hairstyles, then it's understandable she might feel as though there are impossibly high standards she needs to freak out about meeting. Screen content artificially suppresses our normal emotional circuitry, so if she does a lot of escaping by numbing herself with media or games, then it makes sense she'd be unusually fragile and reactive outside that context.
I know the marketers work hard to create the meme that heavy smartphones and social media use is cool and natural and an inescapable part of being a teen, but when this tech is demonstrated to have a set of negative effects and that's the exact set of effects a kid is experiencing, it shouldn't be out of the question to have a conversation about detox or limiting use.
posted by Bardolph at 8:52 AM on January 19 [5 favorites]
I know the marketers work hard to create the meme that heavy smartphones and social media use is cool and natural and an inescapable part of being a teen, but when this tech is demonstrated to have a set of negative effects and that's the exact set of effects a kid is experiencing, it shouldn't be out of the question to have a conversation about detox or limiting use.
posted by Bardolph at 8:52 AM on January 19 [5 favorites]
I would strongly encourage a therapist/outside party. My mother tried to train me out of my perfectionism when I was a kid and in the end it left me feeling like she didn’t like the part of me that made me successful at school and many other things in life, and objectively I also think it was woefully unsuccessful. I know she did it from a place of love, but it’s kind of rough even as an adult feeling like my parents are judging me if I have high standards for something or advocate for myself.
You’re clearly also dealing with a more challenging set of issues than I was, which also suggests getting some outside opinions would be helpful both for you and for her.
posted by A Blue Moon at 8:56 AM on January 19 [3 favorites]
You’re clearly also dealing with a more challenging set of issues than I was, which also suggests getting some outside opinions would be helpful both for you and for her.
posted by A Blue Moon at 8:56 AM on January 19 [3 favorites]
Father of an 18 year old, and 14 doesn't feel too long ago. Most, if not all, of what you are describing is very expected and actually part of the growth process. She's exploring, relating emotionally, learning to prioritize, embracing her look and identity.
Your role as a parent is to provide stability, structure, and consistency and to avoid as much judgement as you can. Its easy, with the experience we have as adults, to get exasperated and judgy about the choices teens make... but a lot of that *is* them learning, by experience.
When she does something stupid, limit yourself to observing the consequences (you were late to school because you left home late) versus judging her choices (you were late because you care too much about your hair and clothes). You description of repeated, long conversations attempting to mitigate her thinking feels pretty judgey, to me.
Just offer advice and help when she needs it, but don't "fix" too much stuff for her or about her (unless she asks for your help).
Related... you are allowed to be sad and mourn the loss of your kid's "childhood"! Its such a special time, having that free and clear love and bond that comes between parent and pre-pubescent child. She'll always be your kid, of course, but a 14 year old adolescent is moving (quickly and surely) toward independence and adulthood and for the next, oh, decade or so?, she's likely to need space from you emotionally to grow and find her own identity. But you, as a person who misses that simpler time, can mourn it. Its really helping me to not judge myself for having this feeling of grief - I really miss my kid who is at college, and the role/closeness I had in her life earlier in her years. I try to not let that color my feelings about her choices and activities now.
If you stay stable, available, and open, she will come back to you for parental advice and support as she needs it.
posted by RajahKing at 8:58 AM on January 19 [26 favorites]
Your role as a parent is to provide stability, structure, and consistency and to avoid as much judgement as you can. Its easy, with the experience we have as adults, to get exasperated and judgy about the choices teens make... but a lot of that *is* them learning, by experience.
When she does something stupid, limit yourself to observing the consequences (you were late to school because you left home late) versus judging her choices (you were late because you care too much about your hair and clothes). You description of repeated, long conversations attempting to mitigate her thinking feels pretty judgey, to me.
Just offer advice and help when she needs it, but don't "fix" too much stuff for her or about her (unless she asks for your help).
Related... you are allowed to be sad and mourn the loss of your kid's "childhood"! Its such a special time, having that free and clear love and bond that comes between parent and pre-pubescent child. She'll always be your kid, of course, but a 14 year old adolescent is moving (quickly and surely) toward independence and adulthood and for the next, oh, decade or so?, she's likely to need space from you emotionally to grow and find her own identity. But you, as a person who misses that simpler time, can mourn it. Its really helping me to not judge myself for having this feeling of grief - I really miss my kid who is at college, and the role/closeness I had in her life earlier in her years. I try to not let that color my feelings about her choices and activities now.
If you stay stable, available, and open, she will come back to you for parental advice and support as she needs it.
posted by RajahKing at 8:58 AM on January 19 [26 favorites]
I should have added to my comment above - catastrophizing about clothes and hair in the morning does seem to me like a sign of anxiety, or ADHD indecision, or perfectionism. But the overall preoccupation with looks seems normal. My daughter spends about 2 hours getting ready to leave the house. I was talking to my doctor about it and her daughter spends 3 hours (to the point where they removed her door. I held my tongue about that). I don't believe the removal of social media would fix this; it's a part of their teen culture and permeates everything. And you can tell them that their coiffure doesn't matter in the long run, but they won't believe you any more than a 5-year old believes you when you tell them there is no such thing as monsters.
posted by kitcat at 9:04 AM on January 19 [5 favorites]
posted by kitcat at 9:04 AM on January 19 [5 favorites]
None of this sounds all that terrible or outside the norm to me. (And don't, yourself, catastrophize; teens panicking about a bad hair day doesn't mean they'll have no resilience as an adult.) Some possibilities to consider, which you may have done already:
1. Sit down for regular problem-solving sessions with her, at times when everyone is calm. Discuss one thing per session, listen to her proposed solutions to the problem, and help her refine them. It IS important to let her choose the solutions instead of forcing one on her. Only offer suggestions after asking her if she wants them.
2. Try to have as many wholly positive experiences with her as possible. This can be hard to orchestrate, but try to think of things which she usually enjoys, you are able to at least pretend to enjoy, and which are unlikely to lead to meltdowns. These maintain the great relationship base you seem to already have, and are extra important when things are hard.
3. Make sure she realizes that even the worst stuff that's happening isn't the end of the world. Failing math sucks, but even if she doesn't even manage to graduate high school, there is always another path back to wherever she wants to go (GED, then community college, etc.). My kids as teens (and I as a teen) really thought that if we fucked up, that was it, forever, our lives were ruined. If this is how she is, failing math might be causing so much stress that it's making her other mood challenges 100 times worse.
4. Look up different self-help ways to manage catastrophizing and try some out. Different ones will work for different people. For me, playing out the reasonable worst case scenario is actually useful; it shows me that I'm being silly. For others this is obviously a terrible idea.
5. RE therapy: sure, if she agrees and you can get it; where I am the availability and quality of adolescent therapists is currently terrible. But if she doesn't agree to it, I don't think she is in a bad enough place right now to force her to go. The damage that will do to your relationship will outweigh the benefits. But you may want to ask her specifically if she wants an ADHD evaluation and to try meds for either that or anxiety.
6. Pay attention to whether this is related to PMS/PMDD. PMDD did terrible things to my life for 30 years before I finally recognized how big a deal it was. If it seems to be a factor there are a number of things to try.
posted by metasarah at 9:16 AM on January 19 [16 favorites]
1. Sit down for regular problem-solving sessions with her, at times when everyone is calm. Discuss one thing per session, listen to her proposed solutions to the problem, and help her refine them. It IS important to let her choose the solutions instead of forcing one on her. Only offer suggestions after asking her if she wants them.
2. Try to have as many wholly positive experiences with her as possible. This can be hard to orchestrate, but try to think of things which she usually enjoys, you are able to at least pretend to enjoy, and which are unlikely to lead to meltdowns. These maintain the great relationship base you seem to already have, and are extra important when things are hard.
3. Make sure she realizes that even the worst stuff that's happening isn't the end of the world. Failing math sucks, but even if she doesn't even manage to graduate high school, there is always another path back to wherever she wants to go (GED, then community college, etc.). My kids as teens (and I as a teen) really thought that if we fucked up, that was it, forever, our lives were ruined. If this is how she is, failing math might be causing so much stress that it's making her other mood challenges 100 times worse.
4. Look up different self-help ways to manage catastrophizing and try some out. Different ones will work for different people. For me, playing out the reasonable worst case scenario is actually useful; it shows me that I'm being silly. For others this is obviously a terrible idea.
5. RE therapy: sure, if she agrees and you can get it; where I am the availability and quality of adolescent therapists is currently terrible. But if she doesn't agree to it, I don't think she is in a bad enough place right now to force her to go. The damage that will do to your relationship will outweigh the benefits. But you may want to ask her specifically if she wants an ADHD evaluation and to try meds for either that or anxiety.
6. Pay attention to whether this is related to PMS/PMDD. PMDD did terrible things to my life for 30 years before I finally recognized how big a deal it was. If it seems to be a factor there are a number of things to try.
posted by metasarah at 9:16 AM on January 19 [16 favorites]
I’m favoriting everything KitKat is saying here. Mom of a 13 year old, previously a teenage girl myself. My daughter is on the low end of ADHD and there’s some interesting markers I see here with your daughter. It’s a tough time with hormones and change. And that can be compounded with issues of anxiety and maybe something like adhd. Call her pediatrician today for a more in depth mental health analysis and do mention the ruminating and anxiety. This is the classic time of life when young women’s self-esteem plummets and things like academic prowess get really affected. Fuck hormones! They really do us dirty. In investigating my daughter’s extent of ADHD, I recognize many of these struggles in myself. I had no focus for math (and no joy in it - I was a words kid) and the world was ready to tell me that girls are “bad at math.” But as and adult I went back to college for my masters and had to pass math exams for admittance and I did great. I had such a better control on my focus, and loved relearning it and working out the problems. Huh. Fancy that. You’re doing great at paying attention to what’s happening and that is huge. Time to get the help of professionals.
posted by amanda at 9:24 AM on January 19 [3 favorites]
posted by amanda at 9:24 AM on January 19 [3 favorites]
I did a parent education group when my daughter was 14 and I needed support with parenting. It was super helpful. I found it through the Boys and Girls club.
Remember that at this age she needs to agree to any remediation that you suggest. Does she agree that failing math is a problem and does she agree to making changes? You can research, suggest, pay for, and transport her to interventions, but ultimately you can’t and shouldn’t force her to do them. She is safe and not making life altering choices, bumbling along with support is a viable approach.
posted by shock muppet at 9:32 AM on January 19 [3 favorites]
Remember that at this age she needs to agree to any remediation that you suggest. Does she agree that failing math is a problem and does she agree to making changes? You can research, suggest, pay for, and transport her to interventions, but ultimately you can’t and shouldn’t force her to do them. She is safe and not making life altering choices, bumbling along with support is a viable approach.
posted by shock muppet at 9:32 AM on January 19 [3 favorites]
When I was a 14/15 year old girl who started struggling badly after having been a "good kid", I wish my family, teachers, and I had known that it is possible for girls to have puberty-onset ADHD symptoms. Also, at the time I refused therapy because it seemed threatening - I expected any therapist to be just another adult I'd need to fend off while I worked on figuring out how to deal with the incredibly confusing experience that was happening inside of me. It might have helped me to be given a book that I could read at my own pace (not mandatory/required) that explained to me what to expect from therapy, how it works, some of the techniques that a therapist can teach, etc.
posted by dreamyshade at 9:34 AM on January 19 [11 favorites]
posted by dreamyshade at 9:34 AM on January 19 [11 favorites]
proffering advice, requested or not
Yeah, don't do that. Advise when advice is explicitly sought, never otherwise.
She's bad at math; so were you. But her badness at math is hers, not your chance for a do-over.
Read up on ADHD. Seek out content from ADHD YouTubers. If you see your daughter in them, seek a diagnosis; getting one could well make the difference between the school being resourced to deliver an individual learning plan and not.
Being a 14 year old girl in 2024 sucks. Being an 18 year old girl in 2028 will suck less. Hang in there.
posted by flabdablet at 9:40 AM on January 19 [6 favorites]
Yeah, don't do that. Advise when advice is explicitly sought, never otherwise.
She's bad at math; so were you. But her badness at math is hers, not your chance for a do-over.
Read up on ADHD. Seek out content from ADHD YouTubers. If you see your daughter in them, seek a diagnosis; getting one could well make the difference between the school being resourced to deliver an individual learning plan and not.
Being a 14 year old girl in 2024 sucks. Being an 18 year old girl in 2028 will suck less. Hang in there.
posted by flabdablet at 9:40 AM on January 19 [6 favorites]
It's been awhile since I was a teenage girl, but none of this seems that concerning to me. That isn't to say you shouldn't give tips on emotional regulation, but hormones are so out-of-whack at that age that some breakdowns/catastrophizing is normal - I agree with the suggestions that you look up different strategies to share with her. If it helps to hear, I definitely screamed at my parents about minor things, and I got over it by the time I left for college. I wouldn't engage with her when she's like that, beyond calmly letting her know that you love her, and are happy to engage with her when she's calmed down. I would also assure her that it's possible all that she's going through is totally normal (even if it sucks), and something that will work itself out once her body adjusts to puberty.
I also think you need to allow her to make mistakes more - I have taught a lot of college freshmen in the last few years, and I'm struck by how many of them really struggle with independent decision making (and this seems to have gotten worse lately). So I would stop this: "I am then attempting damage control at school with things like attendance, emailing teachers, etc." Let her handle the fallout and talking to her teachers - seriously, so many of my college students don't know how to contact their professors - it's a problem!
Finally, make her pick out her outfit the night before and don't let her deviate from her choice the night before - if she needs to pick out two potential outfits, then do that.
posted by coffeecat at 9:41 AM on January 19 [5 favorites]
I also think you need to allow her to make mistakes more - I have taught a lot of college freshmen in the last few years, and I'm struck by how many of them really struggle with independent decision making (and this seems to have gotten worse lately). So I would stop this: "I am then attempting damage control at school with things like attendance, emailing teachers, etc." Let her handle the fallout and talking to her teachers - seriously, so many of my college students don't know how to contact their professors - it's a problem!
Finally, make her pick out her outfit the night before and don't let her deviate from her choice the night before - if she needs to pick out two potential outfits, then do that.
posted by coffeecat at 9:41 AM on January 19 [5 favorites]
I try to be present but leave more room for our 14 y/o to do things and get things done on their own. It isn't always easy. I've tried to dial back my micro-level advice and focus on a few macro-level messages that seem to be helping.
First: the desire to delineate yourself as an individual will run hot sometimes. Your mother and I seem like the stupidest, least interesting people in the world. Try to have grace, I ask. We are not perfect like you believed at nine, but we didn't wake up dipshits this morning, either. We got you this far and are still here to help you grow up into the best person you can be. And we fully expect (and will be delighted to see) this person become smarter, more useful, and more interesting than we are. But even people who don't always get what you want them to get, but are 100% on your side can help.
Another thing we try to emphasize is that there are times to see forest and there are times to see trees. Our kid can get hung up in small stuff, so we try to remind them there are times to zoom out. This one is trickier. An ADHD diagnosis helped here, both for the treatment in and of itself and for the distance it provided to allow them to occasionally say, "Maybe my brain is not giving me the best understanding of this moment right now."
We did find we could help with homework in an entirely different way than we used to do. Instead of going throuigh math problems with them one by one--which I can't even do because this kid is in pre-calc and I've forgotten all of that--I can sit with them while they do things. Just sit. Ask how it's going. Pick them up when they get stuck. Nudge them onto the next problem if they need to reset. Just having a person with you who isn't also panicking can be invaluable. Invite the kid to the kitchen table. Or sit in their room and goof on your phone. I do not fully know why but this helps.
I sometimes have better luck getting our kid engaged on goals and grades by jumping forward a bit and then working backward from desired outcome rather than finding motivation for the tedium of step one. "Your math test grade sucked" is a non-starter, but "What steps can we take to make sure you're succeeding in this math class so that you can do the engineering study you want to do later?" gets buy-in. "To make the next grade better, what can we do differently? What is our plan?"
Anyway, it really sounds like you're doing a great job. Parenting is hard. You're doing great.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:43 AM on January 19 [6 favorites]
First: the desire to delineate yourself as an individual will run hot sometimes. Your mother and I seem like the stupidest, least interesting people in the world. Try to have grace, I ask. We are not perfect like you believed at nine, but we didn't wake up dipshits this morning, either. We got you this far and are still here to help you grow up into the best person you can be. And we fully expect (and will be delighted to see) this person become smarter, more useful, and more interesting than we are. But even people who don't always get what you want them to get, but are 100% on your side can help.
Another thing we try to emphasize is that there are times to see forest and there are times to see trees. Our kid can get hung up in small stuff, so we try to remind them there are times to zoom out. This one is trickier. An ADHD diagnosis helped here, both for the treatment in and of itself and for the distance it provided to allow them to occasionally say, "Maybe my brain is not giving me the best understanding of this moment right now."
We did find we could help with homework in an entirely different way than we used to do. Instead of going throuigh math problems with them one by one--which I can't even do because this kid is in pre-calc and I've forgotten all of that--I can sit with them while they do things. Just sit. Ask how it's going. Pick them up when they get stuck. Nudge them onto the next problem if they need to reset. Just having a person with you who isn't also panicking can be invaluable. Invite the kid to the kitchen table. Or sit in their room and goof on your phone. I do not fully know why but this helps.
I sometimes have better luck getting our kid engaged on goals and grades by jumping forward a bit and then working backward from desired outcome rather than finding motivation for the tedium of step one. "Your math test grade sucked" is a non-starter, but "What steps can we take to make sure you're succeeding in this math class so that you can do the engineering study you want to do later?" gets buy-in. "To make the next grade better, what can we do differently? What is our plan?"
Anyway, it really sounds like you're doing a great job. Parenting is hard. You're doing great.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:43 AM on January 19 [6 favorites]
On the therapy tip: kids and teens don't have enough introspection for talk therapy. The contemporary treatment path for things like executive function issues, anxiety, emotional dysregulation, and even learning disorders is occupational therapy (sometimes specified as childhood or developmental). It's much more concrete than "let's think about a time when..."
A little anecdata, just to illustrate how hurricane-force the teen brain is: all my life, from toddlerhood, I had occasional instances of déjà rêvé: (from French, meaning "already dreamed") is the feeling of having already dreamed something that is currently being experienced. It's a little brain glitch, as far as anybody knows, probably not indicative of a serious neurological problem if it's infrequent.
The summer I was 15 it could be upward of a dozen times a day. Even I, a vastly un-self-aware person, was like "this seems excessive". I didn't TELL anybody, it honestly didn't occur to me that I should, but I noticed and was relieved when it calmed back down. I also, around 14 and 15, had a few episodes of total disassociation that (as far as I can guess from context) were not in any sort of horrible circumstances - like, I was with my friends at Pizza Hut eating, and then we were cleaning up our table to leave. Probably a 20-minute chunk of missing time, at best.
Anyway, brains are weird, and chances are really good that your daughter is not carefully crafting these situations to torment you (or herself) personally, but they are indicative that some kind of better support would probably help.
I'd definitely recommend you stop trying to do this alone with no help, and also that you need to consider whether there's a case for ADHD and learning disorder assessments. In the meantime, because it will take months for those wheels to spin, maybe pick up any well-reviewed book that'll give you something so you don't feel so alone - I see a lot of recs for How to Talk So Teens Will Listen and Listen So Teens Will Talk, The Teenage Brain: A Neuroscientist's Survival Guide to Raising Adolescents and Young Adults, and The Emotional Lives of Teenagers: Raising Connected, Capable, and Compassionate Adolescents (as well as any of Damour's other books). There are many many book options for parents of teens with anxiety and also FOR teens with anxiety, and you might be able to negotiate doing exercises from a workbook (maybe everyone in the family does them individually and then talks about it?) rather than talk therapy.
And yeah, step back from the explaining, and step back from any sort of lesson/discipline stuff when emotions are high. Have conversations about making things better in calm moments. When she's dysregulated, ask her: Advice, Assistance, Assurance, or Acceptance? In other words, does she want your advice in that moment, does she need help just getting through the moment, does she just need to hear that everything's going to be okay, or does she just need to vent her anxiety and frustration without judgement, lessons, advice, or correction so she can complete the stress cycle and re-regulate? Does she maybe need a hug?
Institute a weekly Family Administration Meeting, with the first priority being weekly calendar synchronization. This is just super useful as she gets older and busier, but it also starts to give her ownership in the life of your family. Do whatever other planning cruft needs to get done: meal planning, school projects or special events that need supplies or clothing or whatever, friend and family birthdays coming up, planning upcoming vacation and school holidays. And this is where we have some conversations about how can we make X a smoother process and let's come up with a plan here in a calm moment about how to handle when Z happens.
But you absolutely do need your own support and also coaching in this. If you're watching your kiddo hurt and struggle and the emotion you feel is exasperation, it kind of sounds like you're maybe not getting your own emotional resilience needs met either.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:30 AM on January 19 [8 favorites]
A little anecdata, just to illustrate how hurricane-force the teen brain is: all my life, from toddlerhood, I had occasional instances of déjà rêvé: (from French, meaning "already dreamed") is the feeling of having already dreamed something that is currently being experienced. It's a little brain glitch, as far as anybody knows, probably not indicative of a serious neurological problem if it's infrequent.
The summer I was 15 it could be upward of a dozen times a day. Even I, a vastly un-self-aware person, was like "this seems excessive". I didn't TELL anybody, it honestly didn't occur to me that I should, but I noticed and was relieved when it calmed back down. I also, around 14 and 15, had a few episodes of total disassociation that (as far as I can guess from context) were not in any sort of horrible circumstances - like, I was with my friends at Pizza Hut eating, and then we were cleaning up our table to leave. Probably a 20-minute chunk of missing time, at best.
Anyway, brains are weird, and chances are really good that your daughter is not carefully crafting these situations to torment you (or herself) personally, but they are indicative that some kind of better support would probably help.
I'd definitely recommend you stop trying to do this alone with no help, and also that you need to consider whether there's a case for ADHD and learning disorder assessments. In the meantime, because it will take months for those wheels to spin, maybe pick up any well-reviewed book that'll give you something so you don't feel so alone - I see a lot of recs for How to Talk So Teens Will Listen and Listen So Teens Will Talk, The Teenage Brain: A Neuroscientist's Survival Guide to Raising Adolescents and Young Adults, and The Emotional Lives of Teenagers: Raising Connected, Capable, and Compassionate Adolescents (as well as any of Damour's other books). There are many many book options for parents of teens with anxiety and also FOR teens with anxiety, and you might be able to negotiate doing exercises from a workbook (maybe everyone in the family does them individually and then talks about it?) rather than talk therapy.
And yeah, step back from the explaining, and step back from any sort of lesson/discipline stuff when emotions are high. Have conversations about making things better in calm moments. When she's dysregulated, ask her: Advice, Assistance, Assurance, or Acceptance? In other words, does she want your advice in that moment, does she need help just getting through the moment, does she just need to hear that everything's going to be okay, or does she just need to vent her anxiety and frustration without judgement, lessons, advice, or correction so she can complete the stress cycle and re-regulate? Does she maybe need a hug?
Institute a weekly Family Administration Meeting, with the first priority being weekly calendar synchronization. This is just super useful as she gets older and busier, but it also starts to give her ownership in the life of your family. Do whatever other planning cruft needs to get done: meal planning, school projects or special events that need supplies or clothing or whatever, friend and family birthdays coming up, planning upcoming vacation and school holidays. And this is where we have some conversations about how can we make X a smoother process and let's come up with a plan here in a calm moment about how to handle when Z happens.
But you absolutely do need your own support and also coaching in this. If you're watching your kiddo hurt and struggle and the emotion you feel is exasperation, it kind of sounds like you're maybe not getting your own emotional resilience needs met either.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:30 AM on January 19 [8 favorites]
You couldn't pay me to be a 14 year old girl again.
One thing that jumped out at me is that you mention your daughter being like you and you also mention your daughter has a tendency to catastrophize things. And it seems to me that you might be catastrophizing here and spiralling out about your own anxieties.
The best and most important thing you can do to help your kid is to tell her exactly what you told all of us:
At the end of the day, I just want what is best for her, for her to not screw up too much, to be aware that this will pass, and to understand that I love her.
Tell her that over and over until you both know it's true. Every time you start to spiral about your daughter please remind yourself what your priorities are because you're right. This too shall pass.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 10:30 AM on January 19 [12 favorites]
One thing that jumped out at me is that you mention your daughter being like you and you also mention your daughter has a tendency to catastrophize things. And it seems to me that you might be catastrophizing here and spiralling out about your own anxieties.
The best and most important thing you can do to help your kid is to tell her exactly what you told all of us:
At the end of the day, I just want what is best for her, for her to not screw up too much, to be aware that this will pass, and to understand that I love her.
Tell her that over and over until you both know it's true. Every time you start to spiral about your daughter please remind yourself what your priorities are because you're right. This too shall pass.
posted by RobinofFrocksley at 10:30 AM on January 19 [12 favorites]
if the math teacher is male does he treat the female students with respect?
my 1st algebra teacher told the whole class to ask him for help if we didn't understand something....but he blew me off when i tried to tell him that solving for x Did Not Click for me. I was also getting bullied to the point that I would walk out of class when I could no longer stand it and he blamed me for being disruptive instead of stopping the harassment. He also:
graded homework and used that score for the work habits grade when it should have been assessed by whether or not the kids were doing it.
put ALL the tests on the bulletin boards regardless of grade
made the kids announce their homework and test results
constantly badmouthed his daughter ( who wasn't our classmate)
I had to take chemistry with him a few years later and the only way I passed was with a tutor who showed me how to do solving for x the long way.
posted by brujita at 10:33 AM on January 19 [3 favorites]
my 1st algebra teacher told the whole class to ask him for help if we didn't understand something....but he blew me off when i tried to tell him that solving for x Did Not Click for me. I was also getting bullied to the point that I would walk out of class when I could no longer stand it and he blamed me for being disruptive instead of stopping the harassment. He also:
graded homework and used that score for the work habits grade when it should have been assessed by whether or not the kids were doing it.
put ALL the tests on the bulletin boards regardless of grade
made the kids announce their homework and test results
constantly badmouthed his daughter ( who wasn't our classmate)
I had to take chemistry with him a few years later and the only way I passed was with a tutor who showed me how to do solving for x the long way.
posted by brujita at 10:33 AM on January 19 [3 favorites]
It is really hard to crowd-solve a problem without knowing the full story. If I may make a suggestion, it might be worthwhile to record a typical day with your daughter. Then after some time has gone by (a week or two), watch the video with fresh eyes and see if anything occurs to you that you had not noticed before. If you are not seeing anything new, it might be worthwhile to work with a child/adolescent therapist and show the edited video to figure out what the root causes may be and if there are a couple of fixes that can be made to help alleviate these problems.
posted by ichimunki at 10:39 AM on January 19
posted by ichimunki at 10:39 AM on January 19
Please forgive my absolutely simplistic advice, but is she getting any exercise? Can you convince her to be on a team of some kind so that she gets a bunch of physical exercise that takes her out of her head and little and bonds her to other kids in a way that includes camaraderie and effort and silliness. I know that non-athletic kids are going to resist this, but maybe there's a way in. Yoga? Running? A brisk walk together (I remember doing this with my mom.) I know a lot of sports is really competitive and selective at this age, but there are options that are more about team building and getting out of your head.
Most likely, she'll mature a little and it will get better. She'll continue to struggle, you'll continue to have some tense times, but she'll also just get older.
posted by vunder at 11:13 AM on January 19 [1 favorite]
Most likely, she'll mature a little and it will get better. She'll continue to struggle, you'll continue to have some tense times, but she'll also just get older.
posted by vunder at 11:13 AM on January 19 [1 favorite]
So much good advice here!! Much of it would have been really life changing for me when I was 14 with a lot of similar symptoms your daughter is showing.
Your comments talk a lot about rationalizing and thinking things through with her. Do you also help her explore what she's feeling? Not like "what are you feeling about this situation" but about the physical sensations is her body feeling when she gets anxious and starts catastrophizing. Examples: Does her face get hot or flushed? Do her shoulders tense up? Is her heart racing? Or the flip side, is she freezing where her mind disassociates and her body feels numb? (I mention this last one because it seems like that could be one of your wife's reactions to stress, and this shit is extremely hereditary.)
We as adults "remember" and know rationally that puberty and teenage years mean physiological changes, but it's easy to forget that she's physically experiencing the world differently than she did a few years ago in ways that she doesn't understand yet. And that might be overpowering at times. She might not realize that she's just a little annoyed about a hairstyle, because her body is actively figuring out what 'annoyed' means hormonally, and so she may genuinely be experiencing an adrenaline surge that's more suited for a car accident. And this is baseline, any neurospicy things going on add more layers of complexity. Connecting those physical sensations to the underlying emotions is the first step to then grappling with and addressing the emotions themselves.
Importantly (and this is maybe related to you offering unsolicited advice): she doesn't need you to tell her what she's feeling. She needs non-judgmental space and safe people to explore with while making these connections for herself, in the way that works for her brain. She's the driver of her body and gets to say what she is experiencing; you the parent are there as support (hype/cheerleader/fact checking/perspective/idea bouncing/whatever). And there are better times and worse times for these conversations but you'll figure that out. She is lucky to have you in her corner!
posted by storpsmop at 11:40 AM on January 19 [4 favorites]
Your comments talk a lot about rationalizing and thinking things through with her. Do you also help her explore what she's feeling? Not like "what are you feeling about this situation" but about the physical sensations is her body feeling when she gets anxious and starts catastrophizing. Examples: Does her face get hot or flushed? Do her shoulders tense up? Is her heart racing? Or the flip side, is she freezing where her mind disassociates and her body feels numb? (I mention this last one because it seems like that could be one of your wife's reactions to stress, and this shit is extremely hereditary.)
We as adults "remember" and know rationally that puberty and teenage years mean physiological changes, but it's easy to forget that she's physically experiencing the world differently than she did a few years ago in ways that she doesn't understand yet. And that might be overpowering at times. She might not realize that she's just a little annoyed about a hairstyle, because her body is actively figuring out what 'annoyed' means hormonally, and so she may genuinely be experiencing an adrenaline surge that's more suited for a car accident. And this is baseline, any neurospicy things going on add more layers of complexity. Connecting those physical sensations to the underlying emotions is the first step to then grappling with and addressing the emotions themselves.
Importantly (and this is maybe related to you offering unsolicited advice): she doesn't need you to tell her what she's feeling. She needs non-judgmental space and safe people to explore with while making these connections for herself, in the way that works for her brain. She's the driver of her body and gets to say what she is experiencing; you the parent are there as support (hype/cheerleader/fact checking/perspective/idea bouncing/whatever). And there are better times and worse times for these conversations but you'll figure that out. She is lucky to have you in her corner!
posted by storpsmop at 11:40 AM on January 19 [4 favorites]
It is possible that the problem is the math class. Period.
I'll tell you my story in the hope that it might help you.
When I was in the 9th grade, I had horrible rapport with my algebra teacher. I couldn't understand anything he was teaching. I was completely failing my math class, which had a very negative effect on my life in general, and gave me a very extreme, very long case of insomnia. I was so stressed that I would sleep on the floor of my mother's bedroom so that I wouldn't have to sleep in a room by myself. My mother set me up with the school counselor, but he was inept.
Here are some things I wish they had tried: Move me to an easier level of math. Move me to a different teacher.
Here is what I wish I had done: Gone to my 7th/8th grade math teacher, who I adored, and asked for tutoring. However, my brother, who has a degree in math, did try to tutor me, but I think I was so wound up by then that I just wasn't able to grasp anything math. (In college, I took a remedial algebra class and received an A-. I then took algebra 101, and received an A.) I wonder if your daughter could be allowed to drop the math class and take it somewhere down the road, instead. Or maybe take it online, instead? Or maybe a math tutor could be a solution. A friend of mine hired a math tutor for her high school daughter, and it was extremely effective.
My aunt always said, "Little kids, little problems; big kids, big problems." I agree.
posted by SageTrail at 12:40 PM on January 19 [6 favorites]
I'll tell you my story in the hope that it might help you.
When I was in the 9th grade, I had horrible rapport with my algebra teacher. I couldn't understand anything he was teaching. I was completely failing my math class, which had a very negative effect on my life in general, and gave me a very extreme, very long case of insomnia. I was so stressed that I would sleep on the floor of my mother's bedroom so that I wouldn't have to sleep in a room by myself. My mother set me up with the school counselor, but he was inept.
Here are some things I wish they had tried: Move me to an easier level of math. Move me to a different teacher.
Here is what I wish I had done: Gone to my 7th/8th grade math teacher, who I adored, and asked for tutoring. However, my brother, who has a degree in math, did try to tutor me, but I think I was so wound up by then that I just wasn't able to grasp anything math. (In college, I took a remedial algebra class and received an A-. I then took algebra 101, and received an A.) I wonder if your daughter could be allowed to drop the math class and take it somewhere down the road, instead. Or maybe take it online, instead? Or maybe a math tutor could be a solution. A friend of mine hired a math tutor for her high school daughter, and it was extremely effective.
My aunt always said, "Little kids, little problems; big kids, big problems." I agree.
posted by SageTrail at 12:40 PM on January 19 [6 favorites]
There are violent outbursts at times, often as a result of me saying a sentence that upset her, asking the wrong thing, looking the wrong way. There are often tears and screaming. It is nearly always one-way, and nearly always directed at myself
very normal, as 14 as can be. but if you want to know the worst possible thing to express to her, it is this:
But there are times recently where I feel like I am dealing with another being that has taken over her brain/ emotions.
this is an extremely typical parental line, it was used on me when I was too young and unworldly - because of being a teenager - to know that almost all teenage girls (perhaps almost all teens) receive the same direct denial of our reality. I don't mean denial of what we, perhaps mistakenly, think is real. I mean denial that we are real.
no point trying to stop thinking it, cope privately how you may. but splitting a girl into her imagined good & bad self, or true & false self, is humiliating and infuriating for the girl on the receiving end. if she knows or if she notices. there is no way a 14 year old can verbally object to this way of thinking about her without being dismissed as voicing the dramatic, immature, irrational, hormonal thoughts of the other being. but her anger and her hormones and her violence are all her own. she is not more herself when she is being pleasing. so I mean, think it if it helps you keep your temper but please don't say it to her. at least not until ten years after the last time you remember thinking it.
My concern is, what happens when she's older (with a presumably fully developed prefrontal cortex and ability to regulate her emotions better), and the "real" hard stuff in life starts to come at her? If this is her reaction to a wrinkled sweater, what then?
well, when she's old enough to regulate her emotions better, she'll regulate her emotions better. it may be that family therapy will help her & you out, it may even be that she has a particular condition that can be treated in some way. but whether or not that's true, having an all-day fit over something petty is so normal. most people with halfway decent parents just grow out of it. teenage girls are the angriest people in the world, it's a wonder screaming fits and failing classes and maybe a little petty crime is the worst most of us ever do with it.
btw you seem somewhat annoyed that your daughter doesn't scream at her mother as much as she screams at you. if she is as typical a teenager as she seems to be, she will hate her mother in due course in the appropriate season. it cannot be entirely prevented and there is no need to provoke it.
posted by queenofbithynia at 1:02 PM on January 19 [28 favorites]
very normal, as 14 as can be. but if you want to know the worst possible thing to express to her, it is this:
But there are times recently where I feel like I am dealing with another being that has taken over her brain/ emotions.
this is an extremely typical parental line, it was used on me when I was too young and unworldly - because of being a teenager - to know that almost all teenage girls (perhaps almost all teens) receive the same direct denial of our reality. I don't mean denial of what we, perhaps mistakenly, think is real. I mean denial that we are real.
no point trying to stop thinking it, cope privately how you may. but splitting a girl into her imagined good & bad self, or true & false self, is humiliating and infuriating for the girl on the receiving end. if she knows or if she notices. there is no way a 14 year old can verbally object to this way of thinking about her without being dismissed as voicing the dramatic, immature, irrational, hormonal thoughts of the other being. but her anger and her hormones and her violence are all her own. she is not more herself when she is being pleasing. so I mean, think it if it helps you keep your temper but please don't say it to her. at least not until ten years after the last time you remember thinking it.
My concern is, what happens when she's older (with a presumably fully developed prefrontal cortex and ability to regulate her emotions better), and the "real" hard stuff in life starts to come at her? If this is her reaction to a wrinkled sweater, what then?
well, when she's old enough to regulate her emotions better, she'll regulate her emotions better. it may be that family therapy will help her & you out, it may even be that she has a particular condition that can be treated in some way. but whether or not that's true, having an all-day fit over something petty is so normal. most people with halfway decent parents just grow out of it. teenage girls are the angriest people in the world, it's a wonder screaming fits and failing classes and maybe a little petty crime is the worst most of us ever do with it.
btw you seem somewhat annoyed that your daughter doesn't scream at her mother as much as she screams at you. if she is as typical a teenager as she seems to be, she will hate her mother in due course in the appropriate season. it cannot be entirely prevented and there is no need to provoke it.
posted by queenofbithynia at 1:02 PM on January 19 [28 favorites]
I totally agree that at that age, I both thought that a therapist would be another adult not getting it, or feeling sorry for me, and also being afraid that they would tell my parents things or that my parents would badger or otherwise guilt trip me about what I was talking about in therapy.
So you may not be able to help the first part, but if possible, make it 100% crystal clear that you will never judge her or ask her or even comment about what happens in therapy, beyond "is it helping", and also that the therapist won't tell you anything unless it's a physical health risk.
posted by nakedmolerats at 1:50 PM on January 19
So you may not be able to help the first part, but if possible, make it 100% crystal clear that you will never judge her or ask her or even comment about what happens in therapy, beyond "is it helping", and also that the therapist won't tell you anything unless it's a physical health risk.
posted by nakedmolerats at 1:50 PM on January 19
I haven't read through all the advice above. I can see there's lots of good stuff here. What I will add, as a parent of a kids now 18 and 21:
SHE'S NOT YOU
She's not you. You really gotta let this sink in. You are overidentifying with her and her struggles. She lives in a very different time; she's a different gender; she lived through the pandemic, which is nothing like what we experienced as kids; and, she's a different person. She needs to differentiate from her parents -- it's part of growing up -- and you're not making it easier by all the comparisons between you two. Even if you only make these comparisons in your head, it's clear that you are having a hard time separating the ways she is like you from your experiences. If you talk to her about how you are the same, or you understand because you went through the same thing: don't do that. She needs space from any expectations you have about who she is or will be. I think you see this kid you love as a whole person, but please lean into that even more. It's telling that you mentioned these commonalities a few times. It is fascinating and sometimes frightening to see bits of ourselves in our kids, but it's not always helpful, either, for us or for them.
STOP DOING DAMAGE CONTROL
You said you keep doing damage control, but even on pretty minor stuff. You must stop doing that. You especially must stop doing that when she's not asking you for help. It's so important to mess up and fail and experience natural consequences. Think of this way: would you rather have her be late or miss a high school class or a college class? Be late with a high school assignment or skip work? She needs to learn that spending too much time on her hair and missing the bus (or whatever) has consequences -- or doesn't have consequences. Give her space to experience life! Part of the yelling from her may be saying, "Please let me grow up," though I doubt she realizes that. Now, if she has a major thing and asks for help, absolutely help her, in the way she's asking. But you need to step way back on the interventions. You aren't her coach or boss. You are her cheerleader.
WHO IS CATASTROPHIZING?
I'm not sure if you realize that you said you are worried she is catastrophizing, and what if she does it forever. My friend, please work on your own catastrophizing, you know?
Please read this great article (gift link) in the New York Times: "What Do Teenagers Want? Potted Plant Parents". This is an article partly about parents who aren't around enough. But it's also about parents who are present and available but not overly involved.
Also, I think it would be good if you got into therapy too. It might be helpful for you to talk all this through with a therapist who will have an understanding of teen development. It would also be good for you to have some space to grieve a changing relationship with your child. I think you have identified with her strongly, and been the primary parent so long, that you are struggling with a transition away from a time when she needs you so much. She needs you now, in different ways.
Also, what's going on with your wife? You gave her a sentence or two. Is she that disengaged and removed? That's also something to explore with your wife and/or in therapy. Also, do you have friends who are parents? I am guessing that moms are more likely to be talking to other moms about the challenges of parenting. If you have parent friends, spend some time with them and talk about your kids. If you have regular friends, spend some time with them. You are super invested in fixing these problems, which honestly do not seem catastrophic to me. I think what's going on is that your daughter is having feelings, and you are maybe a bit codependent, so you are having feelings and trying to FIX ALL THE THINGS. Your daughter needs space not to worry about your emotions so she can deal with the overwhelm of her own.
posted by bluedaisy at 2:23 PM on January 19 [13 favorites]
SHE'S NOT YOU
She's not you. You really gotta let this sink in. You are overidentifying with her and her struggles. She lives in a very different time; she's a different gender; she lived through the pandemic, which is nothing like what we experienced as kids; and, she's a different person. She needs to differentiate from her parents -- it's part of growing up -- and you're not making it easier by all the comparisons between you two. Even if you only make these comparisons in your head, it's clear that you are having a hard time separating the ways she is like you from your experiences. If you talk to her about how you are the same, or you understand because you went through the same thing: don't do that. She needs space from any expectations you have about who she is or will be. I think you see this kid you love as a whole person, but please lean into that even more. It's telling that you mentioned these commonalities a few times. It is fascinating and sometimes frightening to see bits of ourselves in our kids, but it's not always helpful, either, for us or for them.
STOP DOING DAMAGE CONTROL
You said you keep doing damage control, but even on pretty minor stuff. You must stop doing that. You especially must stop doing that when she's not asking you for help. It's so important to mess up and fail and experience natural consequences. Think of this way: would you rather have her be late or miss a high school class or a college class? Be late with a high school assignment or skip work? She needs to learn that spending too much time on her hair and missing the bus (or whatever) has consequences -- or doesn't have consequences. Give her space to experience life! Part of the yelling from her may be saying, "Please let me grow up," though I doubt she realizes that. Now, if she has a major thing and asks for help, absolutely help her, in the way she's asking. But you need to step way back on the interventions. You aren't her coach or boss. You are her cheerleader.
WHO IS CATASTROPHIZING?
I'm not sure if you realize that you said you are worried she is catastrophizing, and what if she does it forever. My friend, please work on your own catastrophizing, you know?
Please read this great article (gift link) in the New York Times: "What Do Teenagers Want? Potted Plant Parents". This is an article partly about parents who aren't around enough. But it's also about parents who are present and available but not overly involved.
Also, I think it would be good if you got into therapy too. It might be helpful for you to talk all this through with a therapist who will have an understanding of teen development. It would also be good for you to have some space to grieve a changing relationship with your child. I think you have identified with her strongly, and been the primary parent so long, that you are struggling with a transition away from a time when she needs you so much. She needs you now, in different ways.
Also, what's going on with your wife? You gave her a sentence or two. Is she that disengaged and removed? That's also something to explore with your wife and/or in therapy. Also, do you have friends who are parents? I am guessing that moms are more likely to be talking to other moms about the challenges of parenting. If you have parent friends, spend some time with them and talk about your kids. If you have regular friends, spend some time with them. You are super invested in fixing these problems, which honestly do not seem catastrophic to me. I think what's going on is that your daughter is having feelings, and you are maybe a bit codependent, so you are having feelings and trying to FIX ALL THE THINGS. Your daughter needs space not to worry about your emotions so she can deal with the overwhelm of her own.
posted by bluedaisy at 2:23 PM on January 19 [13 favorites]
Former anxious teenage girl, current anxious adult woman.
I had a really really tough time as a teenager. Thinking about what my parents could have done differently that would have been helpful for me here are a few ideas:
1) Be a "safe" person to talk to. This means letting your daughter discuss what her anxieties and catastrophes are without parents being judgemental or dismissive. Try to be open and curious so that she feels like you care about what she's thinking and feeling. To her these really do feel like disasters!
2) Try to model chillness. Try to give options that will help her (and maybe you too) down-regulate and self-regulate stress and anxiety. This is such an important skill and one that I deeply wish my parents had been able to help me out with as a kid that got super anxious and upset easily. Give her options like it's ok to take a break if a conversation gets heated, it's ok to take a few minutes to calm down after a frustrating math assignment by going for a walk or reading or something. Make sure you are modeling good ways to get yourself calm again if you are agitated or upset about something. If she's spiraling try to be helpful in strategizing with her on ways to prevent or solve recurring issues so that she gains some confidence in self-regulation.
3) Does she have opportunities that make her feel competent and excited about learning? My parents had very strong opinions on what types of activities were good for me. They weren't very interested in letting me pursue hobbies or activities that actually made me feel good about myself. Maybe your daughter isn't sure yet what kinds of things make her happy. Be supportive in helping her find activities (which will likely lead to new friends) that make her feel confident and like she has a refuge. Maybe that's drawing or painting classes or joining a school sports team or playing board games with folks at a local game store.
4) It sounds like you're really trying hard to be supportive, especially about school stuff! I thought I was terrible at math all through K-12. In grad school biostatistics I discovered that actually I'm really good at math - I just did not do well at all with the style of "isn't it fun to figure math out for yourself open sandbox" teaching that was in vogue when I was in school. Let her know that it's not her fault (as long as she is actually putting in earnest effort to try) but it's really common for people to try out different strategies to find one that works for them. Maybe the teacher isn't a good fit, maybe the style they're teaching math these days isn't a good fit, maybe it's become just a real hopeless failure feeling for her and that's making it tough to keep on slogging. Maybe play around with trying out some alternatives like Khan Academy or different problem workbooks or doing your own in-house "flipped classroom".
5) When I was a teen it was pretty uncommon for kids to go to therapy but I think this would have been super super helpful for me to have someone trusted besides my parents to talk to. I got sent to weekly meeting with the school counselor at one point and I was initially really embarrassed about it but just having this chill adult to talk to was so helpful and supportive for me.
6) Teenagers can be super mean, get ready. The normal parent platitudes of "just be yourself and the other girls will like you" are not helpful. Sometimes you need to find kids outside of your school to be friends with.
7) Boundaries are good for everyone. Be clear and patiently assertive about boundaries. I had friends who nearly failed out of school because their parents didn't insist on a bed time and they couldn't wake up or get ready for school in the morning. She will probably not like boundaries, but stay strong! Modeling boundaries and being calmly assertive are incredibly valuable skills.
posted by forkisbetter at 2:54 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]
I had a really really tough time as a teenager. Thinking about what my parents could have done differently that would have been helpful for me here are a few ideas:
1) Be a "safe" person to talk to. This means letting your daughter discuss what her anxieties and catastrophes are without parents being judgemental or dismissive. Try to be open and curious so that she feels like you care about what she's thinking and feeling. To her these really do feel like disasters!
2) Try to model chillness. Try to give options that will help her (and maybe you too) down-regulate and self-regulate stress and anxiety. This is such an important skill and one that I deeply wish my parents had been able to help me out with as a kid that got super anxious and upset easily. Give her options like it's ok to take a break if a conversation gets heated, it's ok to take a few minutes to calm down after a frustrating math assignment by going for a walk or reading or something. Make sure you are modeling good ways to get yourself calm again if you are agitated or upset about something. If she's spiraling try to be helpful in strategizing with her on ways to prevent or solve recurring issues so that she gains some confidence in self-regulation.
3) Does she have opportunities that make her feel competent and excited about learning? My parents had very strong opinions on what types of activities were good for me. They weren't very interested in letting me pursue hobbies or activities that actually made me feel good about myself. Maybe your daughter isn't sure yet what kinds of things make her happy. Be supportive in helping her find activities (which will likely lead to new friends) that make her feel confident and like she has a refuge. Maybe that's drawing or painting classes or joining a school sports team or playing board games with folks at a local game store.
4) It sounds like you're really trying hard to be supportive, especially about school stuff! I thought I was terrible at math all through K-12. In grad school biostatistics I discovered that actually I'm really good at math - I just did not do well at all with the style of "isn't it fun to figure math out for yourself open sandbox" teaching that was in vogue when I was in school. Let her know that it's not her fault (as long as she is actually putting in earnest effort to try) but it's really common for people to try out different strategies to find one that works for them. Maybe the teacher isn't a good fit, maybe the style they're teaching math these days isn't a good fit, maybe it's become just a real hopeless failure feeling for her and that's making it tough to keep on slogging. Maybe play around with trying out some alternatives like Khan Academy or different problem workbooks or doing your own in-house "flipped classroom".
5) When I was a teen it was pretty uncommon for kids to go to therapy but I think this would have been super super helpful for me to have someone trusted besides my parents to talk to. I got sent to weekly meeting with the school counselor at one point and I was initially really embarrassed about it but just having this chill adult to talk to was so helpful and supportive for me.
6) Teenagers can be super mean, get ready. The normal parent platitudes of "just be yourself and the other girls will like you" are not helpful. Sometimes you need to find kids outside of your school to be friends with.
7) Boundaries are good for everyone. Be clear and patiently assertive about boundaries. I had friends who nearly failed out of school because their parents didn't insist on a bed time and they couldn't wake up or get ready for school in the morning. She will probably not like boundaries, but stay strong! Modeling boundaries and being calmly assertive are incredibly valuable skills.
posted by forkisbetter at 2:54 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]
As a former 14-year-old girl who got in a lot of trouble, here's my advice.
Parents are supposed to meet 100% of their children's emotional and physical needs as infants, and then less and less as the children grow. The most important things that an adolescent girl needs from her parents, IMO, are acceptance, affection, appreciation, attention, and autonomy.
Accept her for who she is, and tell her that you accept her. That means you don't try to change her. Tell her you love her unconditionally, because that's what parents are supposed to do, and also she deserves it.
Give her affection without demanding anything in return. Respect her bodily autonomy, but offer as much affection (hugs, whatever) as she wants. But don't smother her.
Appreciate her (with your words and actions). Whatever is good about her, let her know you see it and appreciate it. Thank her when she does anything around the house to help.
Pay attention. Attention is different from scrutiny.
Provide her with as much autonomy as she can have, within reason and within rules of school and home. She gets to start separating from you (her parents) and becoming her own autonomous person during the adolescent years. This is part of everyone's heroic journey - we have to develop our own individual preferences and differentiate ourselves from our parents to be successful adults.
Read the book "How to be an adult in relationships" by David Richo for more about the 5 As of love.
posted by acridrabbit at 3:05 PM on January 19
Parents are supposed to meet 100% of their children's emotional and physical needs as infants, and then less and less as the children grow. The most important things that an adolescent girl needs from her parents, IMO, are acceptance, affection, appreciation, attention, and autonomy.
Accept her for who she is, and tell her that you accept her. That means you don't try to change her. Tell her you love her unconditionally, because that's what parents are supposed to do, and also she deserves it.
Give her affection without demanding anything in return. Respect her bodily autonomy, but offer as much affection (hugs, whatever) as she wants. But don't smother her.
Appreciate her (with your words and actions). Whatever is good about her, let her know you see it and appreciate it. Thank her when she does anything around the house to help.
Pay attention. Attention is different from scrutiny.
Provide her with as much autonomy as she can have, within reason and within rules of school and home. She gets to start separating from you (her parents) and becoming her own autonomous person during the adolescent years. This is part of everyone's heroic journey - we have to develop our own individual preferences and differentiate ourselves from our parents to be successful adults.
Read the book "How to be an adult in relationships" by David Richo for more about the 5 As of love.
posted by acridrabbit at 3:05 PM on January 19
Everyone here has given a lot of great advice. I have nothing to add, except this:
I am a dad to twin daughters.
It will get better.
Tie yourself to the mast, keep going, and try all the above advice.
posted by freakazoid at 4:07 PM on January 19 [3 favorites]
I am a dad to twin daughters.
It will get better.
Tie yourself to the mast, keep going, and try all the above advice.
posted by freakazoid at 4:07 PM on January 19 [3 favorites]
I remember 9th grade. In 95% of this (except time management), I see myself.
When you are a 14-year-old girl, you can't control much of anything.
Not what you're expected to learn, nor when or how you're supposed to learn it, or the fact that your identity was built partly in being a decent student and now you feel like you're failing at being yourself when you haven't figured out yet now to be anything else.
Not your hormones. Not how quickly the first emotional outburst comes out of your mouth.
Not the girls who were your besties last year or maybe the last 8 years who are now treating with contempt.
Not the boys who are suddenly noticing you and you're not sure how you feel about that.
Not the grown men who are looking at and talking to and you don't know how to make that stop.
Not social media. Not the rules for how to be 14 that aren't written anywhere. Not expectations for what it means to be a girl, a woman, a citizen, and a member of your "group" at any particular point in time.
What can you control? What you wear, and if you're lucky, your makeup and your hair. Being able to control those things, which are your minimal shielding against all the rest, is so much more important than algebra, which you likely can't imagine ever using in the real world. And you can spend so much time doing that that you miss the thing that's causing you the greatest sense of loss of control: the math.
Being a 14-year-old girl is the hardest thing I ever was (and I'm a 56-year-old woman who has struggled with medical emergencies, heartbreak, and real tragedies). Yes, there are worse things, like racism and warfare and assault. But being a 14-year-old girl is physically and psychological torture much of the time.
This is not to say that it's OK for her to do any of the things you, as parents, feel is hurtful to the family or to her future. But it's understandable. She almost certainly is suffering from anxiety, but only a qualified mental health professional can say if it's an anxiety disorder or just the normal anxiety of living in the 21st-century. And not just any normal anxiety of living in the 21st-century, but living in it in mid-adolescence just after a global pandemic.
FOR THE EMOTIONAL PART
Yes, therapy for her. Yes, therapy for you. I know you feel like you understand what she's going through as best you can, but other than (possibly) having been somewhat familiar what your wife went through with hormones while pregnant (and, at least, with the benefit of a grownup's brain and life experiences), you don't have a clue.
It's not your fault. But it is your responsibility, and your wife's. You can be a disciplinarian about being kind to other people in the household. Unkindness can yield the teen equivalent of a time out. But so much of this is not really under her control, at least not yet. (I took a lot out on my mom, but I also vomited before school every school day for a year from the anxiety. Keeping it together is hard, and a therapist will help you pick your battles.)
Possibly reduce the expectations on her. Maybe she needs to be taking fewer classes. Maybe she needs not to take math, ever. I gave up on calculus, but still got an Ivy League degree and a Master's degree. Not everyone has to know everything. Not everyone can.
Maybe she needs to be going to sleep earlier (even if that's difficult for her to do even if she wants to). Maybe she needs to pick out her outfit the night before and absolutely (weather emergencies notwithstanding) wear what she has previously picked out.
FOR THE PRACTICAL PART
+1 to all of the smart MeFite advice above, but I have a suggestion from my own professional area of expertise. If you were here in the states, I'd recommend one of my National Association of Productivity and Organizing Professionals (NAPO) colleagues who specialize in working with teenagers (and if you're interested in virtual coaching for your daughter, I could find you a great referral). But I'd also recommend you read, and then have her read. How to Do It Now Because It's Not Going Away by Leslie Josel. It's written by a colleague whom I've known two decades and who is not only an ADHD specialist, but the ultimate specialist in time management for high school and college students.
It will get better, especially with therapy. Find your village. Accept support from all sides. But solely being a disciplinarian will just put you on the other side of the wall from her, so pick your battles about what's important (kindness, health, safety) and be prepared to let go of things that are less so (finding X or the area under a curve, grades).
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 5:01 PM on January 19 [6 favorites]
When you are a 14-year-old girl, you can't control much of anything.
Not what you're expected to learn, nor when or how you're supposed to learn it, or the fact that your identity was built partly in being a decent student and now you feel like you're failing at being yourself when you haven't figured out yet now to be anything else.
Not your hormones. Not how quickly the first emotional outburst comes out of your mouth.
Not the girls who were your besties last year or maybe the last 8 years who are now treating with contempt.
Not the boys who are suddenly noticing you and you're not sure how you feel about that.
Not the grown men who are looking at and talking to and you don't know how to make that stop.
Not social media. Not the rules for how to be 14 that aren't written anywhere. Not expectations for what it means to be a girl, a woman, a citizen, and a member of your "group" at any particular point in time.
What can you control? What you wear, and if you're lucky, your makeup and your hair. Being able to control those things, which are your minimal shielding against all the rest, is so much more important than algebra, which you likely can't imagine ever using in the real world. And you can spend so much time doing that that you miss the thing that's causing you the greatest sense of loss of control: the math.
Being a 14-year-old girl is the hardest thing I ever was (and I'm a 56-year-old woman who has struggled with medical emergencies, heartbreak, and real tragedies). Yes, there are worse things, like racism and warfare and assault. But being a 14-year-old girl is physically and psychological torture much of the time.
This is not to say that it's OK for her to do any of the things you, as parents, feel is hurtful to the family or to her future. But it's understandable. She almost certainly is suffering from anxiety, but only a qualified mental health professional can say if it's an anxiety disorder or just the normal anxiety of living in the 21st-century. And not just any normal anxiety of living in the 21st-century, but living in it in mid-adolescence just after a global pandemic.
FOR THE EMOTIONAL PART
Yes, therapy for her. Yes, therapy for you. I know you feel like you understand what she's going through as best you can, but other than (possibly) having been somewhat familiar what your wife went through with hormones while pregnant (and, at least, with the benefit of a grownup's brain and life experiences), you don't have a clue.
It's not your fault. But it is your responsibility, and your wife's. You can be a disciplinarian about being kind to other people in the household. Unkindness can yield the teen equivalent of a time out. But so much of this is not really under her control, at least not yet. (I took a lot out on my mom, but I also vomited before school every school day for a year from the anxiety. Keeping it together is hard, and a therapist will help you pick your battles.)
Possibly reduce the expectations on her. Maybe she needs to be taking fewer classes. Maybe she needs not to take math, ever. I gave up on calculus, but still got an Ivy League degree and a Master's degree. Not everyone has to know everything. Not everyone can.
Maybe she needs to be going to sleep earlier (even if that's difficult for her to do even if she wants to). Maybe she needs to pick out her outfit the night before and absolutely (weather emergencies notwithstanding) wear what she has previously picked out.
FOR THE PRACTICAL PART
+1 to all of the smart MeFite advice above, but I have a suggestion from my own professional area of expertise. If you were here in the states, I'd recommend one of my National Association of Productivity and Organizing Professionals (NAPO) colleagues who specialize in working with teenagers (and if you're interested in virtual coaching for your daughter, I could find you a great referral). But I'd also recommend you read, and then have her read. How to Do It Now Because It's Not Going Away by Leslie Josel. It's written by a colleague whom I've known two decades and who is not only an ADHD specialist, but the ultimate specialist in time management for high school and college students.
It will get better, especially with therapy. Find your village. Accept support from all sides. But solely being a disciplinarian will just put you on the other side of the wall from her, so pick your battles about what's important (kindness, health, safety) and be prepared to let go of things that are less so (finding X or the area under a curve, grades).
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 5:01 PM on January 19 [6 favorites]
I'm the mom of 14 & 16 year old girls. A lot of this sounds familiar. I agree with the people who suggested that you have her evaluated for anxiety & ADHD. 8th/9th grade is the age where girls who have been masking & compensating for ADHD can no longer do it & things at school start to fall apart.
I'd also like to invite you to join the Metafilter parenting group on Facebook. It's a great group of people with kids at many ages & stages. Message sestaaak to join.
posted by belladonna at 6:27 PM on January 19 [4 favorites]
I'd also like to invite you to join the Metafilter parenting group on Facebook. It's a great group of people with kids at many ages & stages. Message sestaaak to join.
posted by belladonna at 6:27 PM on January 19 [4 favorites]
Definitely therapy for her, maybe for you. But step back a bit - is your lifestyle, her school, community etc. really a good fit for her? It seems like it's creating a lot of anxiety and she is failing at it. I don't think more tutors will help. This might be an opportunity to think if another school setting/environment/community might be a better space for her to thrive. A therapist could help you better understand this.
posted by Toddles at 7:51 PM on January 19
posted by Toddles at 7:51 PM on January 19
I was also a moody teenager who would have benefited from therapy but didn't want it (went to a couple sessions, also felt that the therapist didn't "get me" and that the sessions were a waste of time). I also would have benefited
from better time management skills, more sleep, and some basic education about mental health. As an adult, I embraced therapy and finally learned some better time management skills, but that took 15 years and I had to come around to that stuff on my own (despite my parents' well-intended suggestions for many years prior).
Things that WERE therapeutic for me at that age included:
1) Regular exercise/an extra-curricular activity that I loved (for me it was dance and theater classes).
2) Knowing my parents had my back about academic stuff and would help me trouble-shoot if needed.
3) A couple of very close friends with whom I was maybe a little co-dependent but also felt I could confide in/lean on.
4) Non-parent adults who were a little closer to my age (like mid-twenties to thirties) who took an interest in me, talked to me about life, gave me advice, modeled healthy habits for their own emotional health and self-regulation, etc. These were usually teachers, camp counselors, my dance and theater teachers, etc.
5) And honestly I found it really helpful to read books, watch TV shows/movies, and read sites like metafilter and scarlateen (still do!) for things that felt a little too private for me to want to talk about with anyone, but gave me the chance to see my own experiences reflected a little bit in others. I also think I was more open to reading about anxiety/depression/mental health issues for a long time before I felt comfortable going to therapy.
So I would suggest thinking about a broader support network for your daughter so that you can relax a little bit knowing she has other trusted people in her life who care about her and are looking out for her, as well as exploring possible media/resources that might appeal to her. And, as others have said, this will get better though it may take some time (I think I mellowed out around 17/18, then went through some rough patches in my 20's/30's but had better tools and more self-awareness to be able to get more help/support at those later ages). Therapy for yourself can't hurt, either. Good luck, and thanks for being a caring dad - even if she doesn't always express/show it, she will remember that you cared and paid attention to her during these years.
posted by sleepingwithcats at 9:15 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]
from better time management skills, more sleep, and some basic education about mental health. As an adult, I embraced therapy and finally learned some better time management skills, but that took 15 years and I had to come around to that stuff on my own (despite my parents' well-intended suggestions for many years prior).
Things that WERE therapeutic for me at that age included:
1) Regular exercise/an extra-curricular activity that I loved (for me it was dance and theater classes).
2) Knowing my parents had my back about academic stuff and would help me trouble-shoot if needed.
3) A couple of very close friends with whom I was maybe a little co-dependent but also felt I could confide in/lean on.
4) Non-parent adults who were a little closer to my age (like mid-twenties to thirties) who took an interest in me, talked to me about life, gave me advice, modeled healthy habits for their own emotional health and self-regulation, etc. These were usually teachers, camp counselors, my dance and theater teachers, etc.
5) And honestly I found it really helpful to read books, watch TV shows/movies, and read sites like metafilter and scarlateen (still do!) for things that felt a little too private for me to want to talk about with anyone, but gave me the chance to see my own experiences reflected a little bit in others. I also think I was more open to reading about anxiety/depression/mental health issues for a long time before I felt comfortable going to therapy.
So I would suggest thinking about a broader support network for your daughter so that you can relax a little bit knowing she has other trusted people in her life who care about her and are looking out for her, as well as exploring possible media/resources that might appeal to her. And, as others have said, this will get better though it may take some time (I think I mellowed out around 17/18, then went through some rough patches in my 20's/30's but had better tools and more self-awareness to be able to get more help/support at those later ages). Therapy for yourself can't hurt, either. Good luck, and thanks for being a caring dad - even if she doesn't always express/show it, she will remember that you cared and paid attention to her during these years.
posted by sleepingwithcats at 9:15 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]
I want to echo those above who say it sounds like you may be more involved in her school responsibilities than you should be. Stepping in to do a thing for someone sends the message, “I don’t believe you’re capable.” It can be really damaging. I know it’s hard to find the sweet spot of involvement, but that is what I think you should focus on.
The note about your wife grabbed me too. Is there some dynamic between you and your wife that might shed some light here? Do the two of you see eye to eye on how to parent?
posted by eirias at 4:40 AM on January 20
The note about your wife grabbed me too. Is there some dynamic between you and your wife that might shed some light here? Do the two of you see eye to eye on how to parent?
posted by eirias at 4:40 AM on January 20
I'm not your daughter, but maybe my experiences will resonate.
When I was a teenage girl who was bad at math, I believed that I was inherently bad at math and also that math was stupid. Twenty years later, I feel exactly the same way. My mom liked to suggest that I was falling prey to societal expectations about girls and math, but I knew the truth: math was dumb and I didn't care about it. I did care about going away to college to escape my terrible hometown and clueless parents, so ultimately that was the message I needed: math doesn't matter, so just scrape by enough to not tank your GPA and then you never have to do algebra again. That's what I did and it worked out great. It's really genuinely okay that I straight up can't do long division.
In general I was really sensitive to my closer parent pathologizing me. And honestly I really was deeply unhappy (the fact that your daughter has friends is great!). But I still hated the idea that my mom was trying to fix me. Listen to what queenofbithynia says about not invalidating her. I refused to participate in therapy and only pretended to take the meds. Getting older helped. Sometimes a person just needs to muddle through it.
posted by umwelt at 10:25 AM on January 20 [3 favorites]
When I was a teenage girl who was bad at math, I believed that I was inherently bad at math and also that math was stupid. Twenty years later, I feel exactly the same way. My mom liked to suggest that I was falling prey to societal expectations about girls and math, but I knew the truth: math was dumb and I didn't care about it. I did care about going away to college to escape my terrible hometown and clueless parents, so ultimately that was the message I needed: math doesn't matter, so just scrape by enough to not tank your GPA and then you never have to do algebra again. That's what I did and it worked out great. It's really genuinely okay that I straight up can't do long division.
In general I was really sensitive to my closer parent pathologizing me. And honestly I really was deeply unhappy (the fact that your daughter has friends is great!). But I still hated the idea that my mom was trying to fix me. Listen to what queenofbithynia says about not invalidating her. I refused to participate in therapy and only pretended to take the meds. Getting older helped. Sometimes a person just needs to muddle through it.
posted by umwelt at 10:25 AM on January 20 [3 favorites]
Interestingly, when you wrote, "I feel like I am dealing with another being that has taken over her brain/ emotions," I instantly thought of this essay from Rookie, which I read in 2011 when I was a teenage girl. The essay as a whole actually wasn't that impactful for me (I wasn't a big fan of horror movies), but this bit here did big numbers on Tumblr, and actually that's how I was able to find it just now (by going back to my old Tumblr):
Is there any latent misogyny lurking in your psyche that will run up against any feminine-coded interests of your daughter? For example, you write of having a big issue with her focus on clothing, hair, and make up. Lots of posters here have pointed out that that's just part of being a teenage girl. Will you have a problem with it if it turns out to be a long-abiding interest of hers? Can you still support her? For example, I know that my own dad could not have cared less about the advantages of brown vs. black eyeliner, but he patiently listened and asked questions when I talked to him about it as a teenage girl. I always felt supported and understood by my parents because they took the time to be interested in what I was interested in. Try it out with your daughter, ideally not in the morning when she's 30 seconds away from being late, but ask her questions about the look she's going for, what it takes to achieve it, who does it best, etc. Good luck!
posted by airplant at 3:56 PM on January 20 [5 favorites]
Once you realize that The Exorcist is, essentially, the story of a 12-year-old who starts cussing, masturbating, and disobeying her mother—in other words, going through puberty—it becomes apparent to the feminist-minded viewer why two adult men are called in to slap her around for much of the third act. People are convinced that something spooky is going on with girls; that, once they reach a certain age, they lose their adorable innocence and start tapping into something powerful and forbidden. Little girls are sugar and spice, but women are just plain scary. And the moment a girl becomes a woman is the moment you fear her most. Which explains why the culture keeps telling this story.Your daughter is and will be fine, the process of puberty is so earthshaking for both parents and teenagers that it's part of the foundational texts of multiple religions and mass hysterias. You've gotten a lot of very good practical advice (screening for her anxiety and therapy for you will probably be most helpful). One thing I think you should be on the lookout for, though:
Is there any latent misogyny lurking in your psyche that will run up against any feminine-coded interests of your daughter? For example, you write of having a big issue with her focus on clothing, hair, and make up. Lots of posters here have pointed out that that's just part of being a teenage girl. Will you have a problem with it if it turns out to be a long-abiding interest of hers? Can you still support her? For example, I know that my own dad could not have cared less about the advantages of brown vs. black eyeliner, but he patiently listened and asked questions when I talked to him about it as a teenage girl. I always felt supported and understood by my parents because they took the time to be interested in what I was interested in. Try it out with your daughter, ideally not in the morning when she's 30 seconds away from being late, but ask her questions about the look she's going for, what it takes to achieve it, who does it best, etc. Good luck!
posted by airplant at 3:56 PM on January 20 [5 favorites]
Tutor, volunteering or sports, therapy, time.
See if you can afford a good math tutor. My mom is one and she's literally changed lives for the better by making math click, making math make sense, and turning kids into "math people," or at minimum making kids pass math classes, do well on SATs, and reducing the burden on families. But it has to be someone with teaching experience, not just a college student trying to make extra money (although I'm sure some college students are fantastic tutors) . But a good math tutor can cost $100/hour or more.
See if you can get her involved in volunteering with you. Seeing bigger problems might make her less worried about wrinkled sweaters or frizzy hair in the morning. Or find a sport to do together or by herself that builds confidence or makes her feel beautiful - rock climbing or martial arts for confidence, or yoga for zen/being at peace with your body, or weight lifting for confidence and strength.
I'm thinking individual therapy might be more helpful to her than family therapy together because she will have a private place to vent and talk. If you can go to individual therapy as well so you can find some peace with all of this, I'm sure it wouldn't hurt.
And time... the teenage years suck. I had a lot of screaming outbursts. I had months where I cried in my room to sappy music every day just because I had extra emotions and hormones, but I wasn't even depressed. Hopefully all the recent behavior will pass in a couple of years. Be there for her, love her despite all the door slamming and screaming, don't constantly talk to her about it because she might feel embarrassed about her behavior already but not be able to help herself.
And yea look into anxiety/depression meds or whatever a mental health professional might recommend, if things don't get better.
posted by dabadoo at 7:38 AM on January 22
See if you can afford a good math tutor. My mom is one and she's literally changed lives for the better by making math click, making math make sense, and turning kids into "math people," or at minimum making kids pass math classes, do well on SATs, and reducing the burden on families. But it has to be someone with teaching experience, not just a college student trying to make extra money (although I'm sure some college students are fantastic tutors) . But a good math tutor can cost $100/hour or more.
See if you can get her involved in volunteering with you. Seeing bigger problems might make her less worried about wrinkled sweaters or frizzy hair in the morning. Or find a sport to do together or by herself that builds confidence or makes her feel beautiful - rock climbing or martial arts for confidence, or yoga for zen/being at peace with your body, or weight lifting for confidence and strength.
I'm thinking individual therapy might be more helpful to her than family therapy together because she will have a private place to vent and talk. If you can go to individual therapy as well so you can find some peace with all of this, I'm sure it wouldn't hurt.
And time... the teenage years suck. I had a lot of screaming outbursts. I had months where I cried in my room to sappy music every day just because I had extra emotions and hormones, but I wasn't even depressed. Hopefully all the recent behavior will pass in a couple of years. Be there for her, love her despite all the door slamming and screaming, don't constantly talk to her about it because she might feel embarrassed about her behavior already but not be able to help herself.
And yea look into anxiety/depression meds or whatever a mental health professional might recommend, if things don't get better.
posted by dabadoo at 7:38 AM on January 22
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Why therapy? Parents are vital for love and modeling good mental health. Not great as therapists/coaches because that role needs some objective space and neutrality for the kid to communicate and learn highly charged things like anxiety spirals and anger management.
Also you know being a kid but not being a teen girl now and also not *her* specific experience and feelings. I actually found it harder to judge the right parenting with the kid I’m very similar to because I kept slipping into ‘well this is what I would want/feel’ rather than immediately recognising they are their own self.
One good way to connect is to read the YA books and watch the tv shows they like and discuss them. It’s quite different culturally than even a decade ago at the same age.
Also we have done therapist searches and only once! In five kids have i found a good fit miraculously on the first therapist we tried. It’s usually several rounds of different modalities and therapists.
Parenting teens is like being presented with a first baby again - you gotta read the books and/or talk to lots of people and learn those skills all over again.
The clothes thing btw means they need an earlier bedtime and an earlier wake-up time that they agree to. Laying out 2-3 outfits the night before helps and she may need some guidance on quicker hair styles for school days.
Your wife not participating actively is also a big tough conversation you should have with her and possibly she needs to talk to someone else - do not get your kid involved until you both have dealt with whatever is happening there. Not that she has to be the primary parent! But avoid and sink are specifically odd word choices.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 8:14 AM on January 19 [13 favorites]