Who am I - gender edition?
November 15, 2023 10:49 AM Subscribe
I am exploring my gender after 40 years of being alive and am wondering if you have any archetypes/concepts that might help me?
So I will start by saying I have a basic, but growing, understanding of gender theory. I grew up in a very traditional household and in a very traditional place and have very limited connectivity to transgendered people at all, let alone anyone who I might trust enough to even explore this with. So I come to you MeFi, hat in hand, to help me figure out where to begin because I can't even google anything that feels right. I have a throwaway email if you'd rather be anonymous - exploringinthesuburb@gmail.com.
And I am also 100% convinced that the answer will be "I am me, 1/1 and unique" and I will be okay with that. But I am having a difficult time finding any concepts that allow me to anchor to just about anything and to feel, well, seen.
Some facts:
- I was born a man 40 years ago, am married to a woman, have a young child.
- I would say 98% of people would be surprised that I question my gender identity at all. I present very much as a normal dad my age, beard and all. If I look at my naked body, I have no issue whatsoever feeling at home within my physical body except for wanting to be fitter.
- The other 2% would likely say that I am just unique as I have always been okay with zigging when others zag. I have explored my identity a LOT over the years changing clothing styles, friends, hobbies, interests often. I do have ADHD so that may also play a part in that.
- With that said, in the last couple of years I have I think (unknowingly) started to explore or rebel against some norms. I wear a lot of pink and purple and wear tight workout pants most of the time - sometimes getting insensitive comments from friends to the effect of "he looks like a woman on Instagram from the waist down." I also grew my hair out long (and style and take care of it) and have been experimenting with hairstyles and feel very at home with having long, beautiful hair.
- As a spouse, I would describe myself as presenting as a husband but feeling like a wife. In thinking about traditional gender roles in a relationship, I am the one who cooks, decorates our home, sews, makes health appts, organizes kids stuff and maintains our social calendar. I read the emotional labour thread and feel seen.
- With that said, I also have a lot of traits that are more husband oriented - I fix stuff around the house, build a lot of stuff in my woodshop, lift heavy weights and work with electronics. I kind of feel like my personality is summed up as - I like what I like and have never been bothered to worry whether I should or not.
- I have always had a much easier time connecting deeply with women than men. Most of my best friends over the years have been women, and the guy friends that I do have I feel have always been surface level. I often feel like I am acting around "the guys" in a way that feels more and more exhausting to do with each passing year. I do not feel like one of them AT ALL.
- One of the challenges this has presented over time is, as we moved to a neighborhood and began to make friends, the dynamics of the wives or the husbands hanging out (while the other stays at home with the kids) has emerged and I really, really, really wish I could hang out with the wives. I fantasize often about what it would be like if I was a lesbian married to my wife so we both could hang out there. I want the book clubs and emotional support, not fantasy sports and beer fetishizing. I feel very at odds with a group of guys who I don't know very well. I have also always worked best with teams of women vs. on a team of men and find workplace dynamics with men confusing.
- I tend to connect very easily with other women, so am a lot more likely to be messaging or DMing with other moms than my wife is - I am also our primary social planner. She is okay with this and trusts my intentions, however others who hear how much I message with married women side-eye me and even in one instance, a husband questioned my intentions directly. So now I feel incredibly conflicted doing very basic things like sending a message of emotional support when a mom friend has a bad day because - what will other people think?
- In terms of sexuality, I exclusively have dated women, however a handful or fewer times I have found myself attracted enough to a man to consider acting on it. I never found myself in a position to actually make that choice (and think when I was of an age to do so I'd have been too scared to do so) and am in a happy, monogamous relationship now. I do watch porn and find fit people with big dicks of all genders very attractive and fantasize about being a bottom. But I am very happy in my monogamous relationship and don't feel compelled to act on any extramarital urges and am 100% fine with exploring this within the confines of my relationship/own sexuality.
- I have always felt extremely jealous of gay men who fit into a group of women - it makes me wish I was not attracted to women at all, as it feels like it would solve a lot of my problems and allow me to have the kind of friendships I want. But I am not, and feel like there is NO analogue out there of a cis-presenting man like me who is "one of the moms" when everyone gets partnered up and...that feels really sad to me. I had that when I was younger but now it seems like the idea of being able to go out with the moms and not the guys is now impossible. I feel like even getting close to individual women who I vibe with is rife with problems as it's just not that normal to do (or it seems as such) unless the guy is emotionally or physically trying to cheat. I am 100% not trying any of that.
So to summarize - the 101 level gender knowledge I have of "not feeling comfortable in my body" doesn't quite fit me - because I am comfortable with my body, just not what roles and norms my body is foisting on me, and who it wants me to be friends with. I am happy looking like a dad (for the most part) but identify with the role of mom WAY more and feel very disconnected from my surroundings as a result.
Does any of this resonate at all? Do you have anyone/thing to point to that might help me feel like I am not alone in this particular struggle? I feel very bad trying to show up to some of the traditional spaces for this because I get to pass with all the privilege of a straight, white, cisgendered man in the world and my needs are so far from fighting for the right to just be alive in the world that it feels silly to ask others for help with mine. But here I am.
Anything you can point me to that will help me unpack any of this would be incredibly appreciated.
So I will start by saying I have a basic, but growing, understanding of gender theory. I grew up in a very traditional household and in a very traditional place and have very limited connectivity to transgendered people at all, let alone anyone who I might trust enough to even explore this with. So I come to you MeFi, hat in hand, to help me figure out where to begin because I can't even google anything that feels right. I have a throwaway email if you'd rather be anonymous - exploringinthesuburb@gmail.com.
And I am also 100% convinced that the answer will be "I am me, 1/1 and unique" and I will be okay with that. But I am having a difficult time finding any concepts that allow me to anchor to just about anything and to feel, well, seen.
Some facts:
- I was born a man 40 years ago, am married to a woman, have a young child.
- I would say 98% of people would be surprised that I question my gender identity at all. I present very much as a normal dad my age, beard and all. If I look at my naked body, I have no issue whatsoever feeling at home within my physical body except for wanting to be fitter.
- The other 2% would likely say that I am just unique as I have always been okay with zigging when others zag. I have explored my identity a LOT over the years changing clothing styles, friends, hobbies, interests often. I do have ADHD so that may also play a part in that.
- With that said, in the last couple of years I have I think (unknowingly) started to explore or rebel against some norms. I wear a lot of pink and purple and wear tight workout pants most of the time - sometimes getting insensitive comments from friends to the effect of "he looks like a woman on Instagram from the waist down." I also grew my hair out long (and style and take care of it) and have been experimenting with hairstyles and feel very at home with having long, beautiful hair.
- As a spouse, I would describe myself as presenting as a husband but feeling like a wife. In thinking about traditional gender roles in a relationship, I am the one who cooks, decorates our home, sews, makes health appts, organizes kids stuff and maintains our social calendar. I read the emotional labour thread and feel seen.
- With that said, I also have a lot of traits that are more husband oriented - I fix stuff around the house, build a lot of stuff in my woodshop, lift heavy weights and work with electronics. I kind of feel like my personality is summed up as - I like what I like and have never been bothered to worry whether I should or not.
- I have always had a much easier time connecting deeply with women than men. Most of my best friends over the years have been women, and the guy friends that I do have I feel have always been surface level. I often feel like I am acting around "the guys" in a way that feels more and more exhausting to do with each passing year. I do not feel like one of them AT ALL.
- One of the challenges this has presented over time is, as we moved to a neighborhood and began to make friends, the dynamics of the wives or the husbands hanging out (while the other stays at home with the kids) has emerged and I really, really, really wish I could hang out with the wives. I fantasize often about what it would be like if I was a lesbian married to my wife so we both could hang out there. I want the book clubs and emotional support, not fantasy sports and beer fetishizing. I feel very at odds with a group of guys who I don't know very well. I have also always worked best with teams of women vs. on a team of men and find workplace dynamics with men confusing.
- I tend to connect very easily with other women, so am a lot more likely to be messaging or DMing with other moms than my wife is - I am also our primary social planner. She is okay with this and trusts my intentions, however others who hear how much I message with married women side-eye me and even in one instance, a husband questioned my intentions directly. So now I feel incredibly conflicted doing very basic things like sending a message of emotional support when a mom friend has a bad day because - what will other people think?
- In terms of sexuality, I exclusively have dated women, however a handful or fewer times I have found myself attracted enough to a man to consider acting on it. I never found myself in a position to actually make that choice (and think when I was of an age to do so I'd have been too scared to do so) and am in a happy, monogamous relationship now. I do watch porn and find fit people with big dicks of all genders very attractive and fantasize about being a bottom. But I am very happy in my monogamous relationship and don't feel compelled to act on any extramarital urges and am 100% fine with exploring this within the confines of my relationship/own sexuality.
- I have always felt extremely jealous of gay men who fit into a group of women - it makes me wish I was not attracted to women at all, as it feels like it would solve a lot of my problems and allow me to have the kind of friendships I want. But I am not, and feel like there is NO analogue out there of a cis-presenting man like me who is "one of the moms" when everyone gets partnered up and...that feels really sad to me. I had that when I was younger but now it seems like the idea of being able to go out with the moms and not the guys is now impossible. I feel like even getting close to individual women who I vibe with is rife with problems as it's just not that normal to do (or it seems as such) unless the guy is emotionally or physically trying to cheat. I am 100% not trying any of that.
So to summarize - the 101 level gender knowledge I have of "not feeling comfortable in my body" doesn't quite fit me - because I am comfortable with my body, just not what roles and norms my body is foisting on me, and who it wants me to be friends with. I am happy looking like a dad (for the most part) but identify with the role of mom WAY more and feel very disconnected from my surroundings as a result.
Does any of this resonate at all? Do you have anyone/thing to point to that might help me feel like I am not alone in this particular struggle? I feel very bad trying to show up to some of the traditional spaces for this because I get to pass with all the privilege of a straight, white, cisgendered man in the world and my needs are so far from fighting for the right to just be alive in the world that it feels silly to ask others for help with mine. But here I am.
Anything you can point me to that will help me unpack any of this would be incredibly appreciated.
Best answer: At first, I thought it sounded like you might be a cis-gendered, emotionally intelligent man who is highly frustratred with living under the constraints of traditional gender roles. I have a close friend who meets this description and I am the opposite (cis-gender woman, etc. etc.)
If I was to try and pinpoint exactly where you diverge from two confidently cis-gender people who are otherwise your analogues, I think it's this: "I fantasize often about what it would be like if I was a lesbian married to my wife."
Perhaps that deserves further scrutiny.
posted by cranberrymonger at 11:00 AM on November 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
If I was to try and pinpoint exactly where you diverge from two confidently cis-gender people who are otherwise your analogues, I think it's this: "I fantasize often about what it would be like if I was a lesbian married to my wife."
Perhaps that deserves further scrutiny.
posted by cranberrymonger at 11:00 AM on November 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
Best answer: I’m a 35 year old trans person who transitioned fairly late in life, partly because I didn’t have the language to understand my desires at a younger age. I remember flailing around trying to find ‘resources’ a lot when I was first trying to figure things out, like the answer to what I wanted would be written down in a book somewhere. I’d be careful of assuming that there’s some kind of ‘theory’ that explains all of this, I totally get that impulse, but while there are many smart trans people who have written lots of interesting and useful things about being trans, only your own individual feelings can guide you to the right place for you to be.
I’d highly recommend therapy, *if* it’s possible for you to find a therapist who is comfortable and experienced with transgender and questioning clients, where you can explore your feelings at your own pace and on your own terms. No one here can tell you what your gender is, nor can your wife or your friends or a therapist, that’s something only you are qualified to know.
That said, I do think the part about often fantasising about what it would be like to be in a lesbian relationship with your wife is really worth exploring further. This exploration can happen on your own, with a therapist, or - if you’re confident you have the kind of relationship with her where you can express your thoughts and feelings without fear of judgement and you feel ready to - it might be good to talk through what that means to you with her.
For what it’s worth, nothing you’ve described about ‘traditionally masculine’ things you enjoy is incompatible with being a trans woman or being nonbinary (there’s a long rich tradition of lesbians with power tools!) and the thought process ‘I’d say I was trans if it wasn’t for xyz…’ is a very common train of thought for questioning trans people of all genders, which makes sense really because why would a cis person be thinking that!
posted by chives at 11:14 AM on November 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
I’d highly recommend therapy, *if* it’s possible for you to find a therapist who is comfortable and experienced with transgender and questioning clients, where you can explore your feelings at your own pace and on your own terms. No one here can tell you what your gender is, nor can your wife or your friends or a therapist, that’s something only you are qualified to know.
That said, I do think the part about often fantasising about what it would be like to be in a lesbian relationship with your wife is really worth exploring further. This exploration can happen on your own, with a therapist, or - if you’re confident you have the kind of relationship with her where you can express your thoughts and feelings without fear of judgement and you feel ready to - it might be good to talk through what that means to you with her.
For what it’s worth, nothing you’ve described about ‘traditionally masculine’ things you enjoy is incompatible with being a trans woman or being nonbinary (there’s a long rich tradition of lesbians with power tools!) and the thought process ‘I’d say I was trans if it wasn’t for xyz…’ is a very common train of thought for questioning trans people of all genders, which makes sense really because why would a cis person be thinking that!
posted by chives at 11:14 AM on November 15, 2023 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you for responses so far - I just wanted to clarify as I think I may have been unclear in how I presented the following statement:
"I fantasize often about what it would be like if I was a lesbian married to my wife."
I don't mean this in any sexual terms or within our relationship persay, but instead I meant more - if we both were women, we would both get invited to the book club that she did and my presence there would not completely change the dynamics. I could just go and it would be normal.
As an example, one of the members of the book club said that it would be awesome to have me, however part of the book club is a space where women can express their feelings about their relationships/kids/etc. and they'd not be as comfortable if there was a man there. And I 100% get it but it makes me sad to get it.
posted by openhearted at 11:24 AM on November 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
"I fantasize often about what it would be like if I was a lesbian married to my wife."
I don't mean this in any sexual terms or within our relationship persay, but instead I meant more - if we both were women, we would both get invited to the book club that she did and my presence there would not completely change the dynamics. I could just go and it would be normal.
As an example, one of the members of the book club said that it would be awesome to have me, however part of the book club is a space where women can express their feelings about their relationships/kids/etc. and they'd not be as comfortable if there was a man there. And I 100% get it but it makes me sad to get it.
posted by openhearted at 11:24 AM on November 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I feel very bad trying to show up to some of the traditional spaces for this because I get to pass with all the privilege of a straight, white, cisgendered man in the world and my needs are so far from fighting for the right to just be alive in the world that it feels silly to ask others for help with mine. But here I am.
Also - I understand this feeling of not wanting to take up space when others ‘have it worse’, but fortunately that’s not how it works. Trans support groups are for anyone who think they might need support with gender stuff, so - given that you’ve asked this question here - you’re exactly the kind of person they’re aimed at. If it appeals to you on some level to go to a trans support group to check it out, you won’t find a group of people in abject misery who resent you for being there, you’ll find a lot of different people from various different backgrounds, at different stages of transition - almost certainly some who look very much like you and very possibly some who you have a lot in common with or who may be able to teach you some things you’d like to know. The experience might also teach you that you’re on a different path, but it’ll be valuable experience either way in helping you figure this out. Good luck!
posted by chives at 11:25 AM on November 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
Also - I understand this feeling of not wanting to take up space when others ‘have it worse’, but fortunately that’s not how it works. Trans support groups are for anyone who think they might need support with gender stuff, so - given that you’ve asked this question here - you’re exactly the kind of person they’re aimed at. If it appeals to you on some level to go to a trans support group to check it out, you won’t find a group of people in abject misery who resent you for being there, you’ll find a lot of different people from various different backgrounds, at different stages of transition - almost certainly some who look very much like you and very possibly some who you have a lot in common with or who may be able to teach you some things you’d like to know. The experience might also teach you that you’re on a different path, but it’ll be valuable experience either way in helping you figure this out. Good luck!
posted by chives at 11:25 AM on November 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
Best answer: I'd suggest you take a look at https://genderdysphoria.fyi/ as a starting point for getting up-to-date with (close to) the latest understanding of gender, gender identity, and gender incongruence. It's not as cut-and-dried as a lot of stories in mainstream media present it.
I suspect some of that might be useful or relatable for you. It was for me, and several of your points remind me strongly of myself a year ago (dressing femme, wanting & enjoying female social groups, doing a lot of feminine-coded tasks, but still having a lot of masculine-coded hobbies and feeling comfortable in my AMAB body). I started socially transitioning near the beginning of this year, shortly after reading genderdysphoria.fyi and a few other things.
It sounds like you're considering your specific personal wants and needs re: gender identity and expression and you're already starting to pave a path of your own, which is fantastic. Ultimately, regardless of how you identify, I think it's best to do gender expression in the way that feels right for you as long as you can do so in a way that is safe for you; that may vary depending on where you live. If that involves pushing or blurring some traditional boundaries, so be it .
If you can, you might try to look into this further when you have time to do emotional processing if stuff comes up. It might be a good idea to find a gender-affirming therapist to talk to if you don't already have one. You might not need that - for some people, myself included, exploring gender identity isn't actually that fraught. For others, it can suddenly bring up some very intense emotions, and it's nice to have space and support if you can get it.
I'm happy to talk more about this; these are just first thoughts.
Also, on preview: I cannot second chives's point about support groups hard enough. Not that they're all fantastic; I've heard from others that they are a mixed bag, but if they try to make you feel unwelcome for not being trans enough, that's their problem, not yours.
(P.S., FYI: The term "transgendered" is generally discouraged, most folks I know prefer "trans" or "transgender". There's a ton of fraught language around gender and I'm not aware of any great guides to it; sorry.)
posted by sibilatorix at 11:36 AM on November 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
I suspect some of that might be useful or relatable for you. It was for me, and several of your points remind me strongly of myself a year ago (dressing femme, wanting & enjoying female social groups, doing a lot of feminine-coded tasks, but still having a lot of masculine-coded hobbies and feeling comfortable in my AMAB body). I started socially transitioning near the beginning of this year, shortly after reading genderdysphoria.fyi and a few other things.
It sounds like you're considering your specific personal wants and needs re: gender identity and expression and you're already starting to pave a path of your own, which is fantastic. Ultimately, regardless of how you identify, I think it's best to do gender expression in the way that feels right for you as long as you can do so in a way that is safe for you; that may vary depending on where you live. If that involves pushing or blurring some traditional boundaries, so be it .
If you can, you might try to look into this further when you have time to do emotional processing if stuff comes up. It might be a good idea to find a gender-affirming therapist to talk to if you don't already have one. You might not need that - for some people, myself included, exploring gender identity isn't actually that fraught. For others, it can suddenly bring up some very intense emotions, and it's nice to have space and support if you can get it.
I'm happy to talk more about this; these are just first thoughts.
Also, on preview: I cannot second chives's point about support groups hard enough. Not that they're all fantastic; I've heard from others that they are a mixed bag, but if they try to make you feel unwelcome for not being trans enough, that's their problem, not yours.
(P.S., FYI: The term "transgendered" is generally discouraged, most folks I know prefer "trans" or "transgender". There's a ton of fraught language around gender and I'm not aware of any great guides to it; sorry.)
posted by sibilatorix at 11:36 AM on November 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
Best answer: You might get something helpful from Kate Bornstein's My New Gender Workbook.
posted by Jeanne at 11:38 AM on November 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Jeanne at 11:38 AM on November 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Best answer: If there were no rules about where you were supposed to be hanging out and how you were supposed to dress, what might that look like? Like, what happens if you start to think of yourself, even if only to yourself, as a mom? Have you ever spent any time journaling about this?
I can also tell you that I'm about a decade older than you and grappling with some identity issues (around sexuality) and feelings of imposter syndrome for this shift in understanding of myself. I also have been wishing there were more models for womanhood when I was younger. I wonder if there were more models for ways of being any gender when you were younger, if you would have ended up with a different gender expression. These are legitimate, healthy things to examine at any age, and there's nothing silly or wrong about it. Your exploration of this is making space for you to live authentically, which is making space for others (not just your kids, but also your kids) to do the same.
I really want to encourage you to pursue therapy with someone who works with trans and non-binary folks as a regular part of their practice. So not just someone who is LGBTQ+-friendly, but has specific experience with other folks grappling with these same questions.
posted by bluedaisy at 11:56 AM on November 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
I can also tell you that I'm about a decade older than you and grappling with some identity issues (around sexuality) and feelings of imposter syndrome for this shift in understanding of myself. I also have been wishing there were more models for womanhood when I was younger. I wonder if there were more models for ways of being any gender when you were younger, if you would have ended up with a different gender expression. These are legitimate, healthy things to examine at any age, and there's nothing silly or wrong about it. Your exploration of this is making space for you to live authentically, which is making space for others (not just your kids, but also your kids) to do the same.
I really want to encourage you to pursue therapy with someone who works with trans and non-binary folks as a regular part of their practice. So not just someone who is LGBTQ+-friendly, but has specific experience with other folks grappling with these same questions.
posted by bluedaisy at 11:56 AM on November 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Here's a Twitter thread from TV showrunner Will Graham, who came out as nonbinary last year, in their 40s. Might be worth seeing if anything resonates.
posted by Pallas Athena at 12:02 PM on November 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Pallas Athena at 12:02 PM on November 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I will not thread-sit any further but sibilatorix's great suggestion led me to this page which feels a LOT like what I am feeling - it's not as physical, or biological, but social dysphoria:
https://genderdysphoria.fyi/en/social-dysphoria
"For example, an AMAB trans person may find themselves very uncomfortable in groups of men. They may feel out of place and struggle to fit in among their male peers. Masculine social interactions don’t come naturally to them, and trying to emulate their male friends feels awkward. They may feel themselves drawn more to friendships with women, but become frustrated at the social and heterosexual dynamics that come into play between men and women, preventing them from forming platonic relationships. This is if women are willing to form friendships at all. They may find themselves deeply hurt when women shy away from them on principle."
This feels a lot like what I said but in fewer words. I am immensely grateful as always for MeFi's wisdom and guidance - y'all rock so much.
posted by openhearted at 12:03 PM on November 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
https://genderdysphoria.fyi/en/social-dysphoria
"For example, an AMAB trans person may find themselves very uncomfortable in groups of men. They may feel out of place and struggle to fit in among their male peers. Masculine social interactions don’t come naturally to them, and trying to emulate their male friends feels awkward. They may feel themselves drawn more to friendships with women, but become frustrated at the social and heterosexual dynamics that come into play between men and women, preventing them from forming platonic relationships. This is if women are willing to form friendships at all. They may find themselves deeply hurt when women shy away from them on principle."
This feels a lot like what I said but in fewer words. I am immensely grateful as always for MeFi's wisdom and guidance - y'all rock so much.
posted by openhearted at 12:03 PM on November 15, 2023 [11 favorites]
Best answer: "I don't mean this in any sexual terms or within our relationship... I meant more - if we both were women, we would both get invited to the book club"
When I first read your question, it didn't seem like you were referring to a sexual fantasy. And regardless, I think that's a red herring... my only point is that this type of longing/desire/daydream, sexual or not, has never, not once, occurred to me, in all my years of gender role-related annoyances so I think, don't be too quick to discount it or explain it away as a simple desire to belong to a social group. I think there is more to explore there. Sorry if I am pressing on a sensitive point or speaking out of turn...
posted by cranberrymonger at 12:08 PM on November 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
When I first read your question, it didn't seem like you were referring to a sexual fantasy. And regardless, I think that's a red herring... my only point is that this type of longing/desire/daydream, sexual or not, has never, not once, occurred to me, in all my years of gender role-related annoyances so I think, don't be too quick to discount it or explain it away as a simple desire to belong to a social group. I think there is more to explore there. Sorry if I am pressing on a sensitive point or speaking out of turn...
posted by cranberrymonger at 12:08 PM on November 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Perhaps the gender unicorn can help? It sounds to me like you have a male gender identity and a feminine gender expression, but I'm not sure -- I just know that decoupling some of these concepts can be useful. Good luck with your journey!
posted by equipoise at 12:27 PM on November 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by equipoise at 12:27 PM on November 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Here are some of the books that helped me define/understand my personal flavor of gender in my 40s:
-Gender Magic by Rae McDaniel
-How to Understand your Gender by Alex Iantaffi and Meg-John Barker
-You and Your Gender Identity by Dara Hoffman-Fox
Your experience is completely valid, and you are absolutely not alone. Best of luck on your journey.
posted by okayokayigive at 12:29 PM on November 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
-Gender Magic by Rae McDaniel
-How to Understand your Gender by Alex Iantaffi and Meg-John Barker
-You and Your Gender Identity by Dara Hoffman-Fox
Your experience is completely valid, and you are absolutely not alone. Best of luck on your journey.
posted by okayokayigive at 12:29 PM on November 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I want to draw out another side of what you describe here. If I'm reading correctly, it sounds like your current friend group is majority cishet married couples with young kids(?). As a parent of a young kiddo, I'm currently in a kid-centered community like that. And even though many of the parents in my community are progressive, unique individuals, somehow en masse the whole dynamic is extremely normative. I often get the sense that my community is a bunch of interesting, quirky people who are trapped together acting out a bizarrely traditional performance of nuclear family life.
As a cishet woman who has relished having both male and female friends throughout my life (and who has often really enjoyed feeling like one of the guys - albeit the literature-nerd guys), I find my current nuclear-families community surprisingly gender-restrictive and often quite lonely.
This is not to divert the conversation from gender exploration - it's just to acknowledge another side of what I hear you alluding to, which is that predominantly cishet nuclear-family-based communities, even if they're good in many ways, can also be terribly confining. The gender not-fitting sadness that you feel in your community is something I experience in mine too. It is true, you're not alone.
posted by marlys at 1:00 PM on November 15, 2023 [19 favorites]
As a cishet woman who has relished having both male and female friends throughout my life (and who has often really enjoyed feeling like one of the guys - albeit the literature-nerd guys), I find my current nuclear-families community surprisingly gender-restrictive and often quite lonely.
This is not to divert the conversation from gender exploration - it's just to acknowledge another side of what I hear you alluding to, which is that predominantly cishet nuclear-family-based communities, even if they're good in many ways, can also be terribly confining. The gender not-fitting sadness that you feel in your community is something I experience in mine too. It is true, you're not alone.
posted by marlys at 1:00 PM on November 15, 2023 [19 favorites]
Best answer: Popping in to second Mercury Stardust, they’re awesome and might be an excellent inroad to online communities where you would feel comfortable. Here is her YouTube page, which you might find enjoyable to just click around on and watch some shorts.
You might like to listen to the Gender Reveal podcast, which has a huge backlog of incredible guests and episodes. It’s so nice to just listen to trans people talk to each other about their multifaceted lives and identities; I like to just have it on while doing chores. It’s definitely not trans 101 stuff, but it also isn’t so inside baseball that you’ll feel lost. It’s also just good to learn about cool people doing cool stuff who happen to be trans, which can be really vital when examining oneself and exploring possibilities.
Marlys right above me makes a really important point. It sounds like one thing you really want is a queer community for you and your family to befriend. There are book clubs where you would be welcome, group picnics where you would not feel obligated to critique some man’s grilling technique, couples who would like friends who wouldn’t see you as predatory. It’s just that these communities are in more liberal areas or in little pockets and they fiercely defend themselves. It might seem wasteful to move, but could you spend more travel time to go to events or friends who are farther away? Do some deep investigation of your area and find out if there are any queer-friendly spaces in your area that keep it kind of on the downlow. Anyway I guess my point is, try to tease out if your discomfort is coming internally and you want to make physical and identity-based changes, or if it’s external and you need to put lots of effort into changing up your social group so you can feel comfortable as you already are. Of course it’s probably a combination, but worth examining.
posted by Mizu at 2:10 PM on November 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
You might like to listen to the Gender Reveal podcast, which has a huge backlog of incredible guests and episodes. It’s so nice to just listen to trans people talk to each other about their multifaceted lives and identities; I like to just have it on while doing chores. It’s definitely not trans 101 stuff, but it also isn’t so inside baseball that you’ll feel lost. It’s also just good to learn about cool people doing cool stuff who happen to be trans, which can be really vital when examining oneself and exploring possibilities.
Marlys right above me makes a really important point. It sounds like one thing you really want is a queer community for you and your family to befriend. There are book clubs where you would be welcome, group picnics where you would not feel obligated to critique some man’s grilling technique, couples who would like friends who wouldn’t see you as predatory. It’s just that these communities are in more liberal areas or in little pockets and they fiercely defend themselves. It might seem wasteful to move, but could you spend more travel time to go to events or friends who are farther away? Do some deep investigation of your area and find out if there are any queer-friendly spaces in your area that keep it kind of on the downlow. Anyway I guess my point is, try to tease out if your discomfort is coming internally and you want to make physical and identity-based changes, or if it’s external and you need to put lots of effort into changing up your social group so you can feel comfortable as you already are. Of course it’s probably a combination, but worth examining.
posted by Mizu at 2:10 PM on November 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
Best answer: I don't know where you are, but I'd say that the first step would be finding queer community. Maybe around an existing hobby? Around me we have queer gaming groups at the local game store, for instance.
I'd also advise looking into genderqueer and nonbinary identities. You don't have to be at one end of the other of the spectrum.
My middle-ages pansexual cis female partner was in (what sounds like) a very similar position, but gender reversed. After many years, she's finally decided that she is a woman with a gender identity of "butch". But it was a process and I think she had a lot of key conversations with people she met in the above-mentioned gaming group. There are more people than you think who are out there thinking about these things.
(It's worth mentioning though, that in some queer communities there is an odd pressure on non-gender-conforming people to come out as trans. That's been an odd one to experience.)
posted by quiet wanderer at 5:12 PM on November 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'd also advise looking into genderqueer and nonbinary identities. You don't have to be at one end of the other of the spectrum.
My middle-ages pansexual cis female partner was in (what sounds like) a very similar position, but gender reversed. After many years, she's finally decided that she is a woman with a gender identity of "butch". But it was a process and I think she had a lot of key conversations with people she met in the above-mentioned gaming group. There are more people than you think who are out there thinking about these things.
(It's worth mentioning though, that in some queer communities there is an odd pressure on non-gender-conforming people to come out as trans. That's been an odd one to experience.)
posted by quiet wanderer at 5:12 PM on November 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I don't have a particular resource for you but I relate to your experience, and to me your post strikes me as potentially fitting somewhere in the non-binary, genderqueer, or gender nonconforming space.
I feel like you at times - I'm afab and usually just identify as a woman, but it's because I hang out in leftist, coastal cities where there's tons of queer folks and "woman" feels expansive enough to encompass my identity and life experiences. But put me in a smaller town with cishet normie values and then I definitely feel I exist outside of that binary, would feel weird and out of place in groups of all women, and therefore I am (at least contextually) non-binary.
+1 on finding more queer friends and community! All that heteronormative stuff about low-key not being allowed to talk to the wives sounds exhausting, you need a break at least from that whole dynamic.
posted by internet of pillows at 5:22 PM on November 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
I feel like you at times - I'm afab and usually just identify as a woman, but it's because I hang out in leftist, coastal cities where there's tons of queer folks and "woman" feels expansive enough to encompass my identity and life experiences. But put me in a smaller town with cishet normie values and then I definitely feel I exist outside of that binary, would feel weird and out of place in groups of all women, and therefore I am (at least contextually) non-binary.
+1 on finding more queer friends and community! All that heteronormative stuff about low-key not being allowed to talk to the wives sounds exhausting, you need a break at least from that whole dynamic.
posted by internet of pillows at 5:22 PM on November 15, 2023 [7 favorites]
Best answer: I also want to emphasize that the queer community includes those who are questioning. You are queer enough; you deserve to be included in queer spaces.
posted by quiet wanderer at 5:43 PM on November 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by quiet wanderer at 5:43 PM on November 15, 2023 [3 favorites]
Best answer: As an aside, genderdysphoria.fyi contains some mild inaccuracies as to recent history. Nothing that actually matters substantively, but take its narrative of the last 15-20 years with a grain of salt. (The description of the contents of v6 of the SoC isn't accurate, nor is the statement that "dysphoria" wasn't used in the US until DSM-V--the diagnosis was GID, but the term was certainly in use in medicalized contexts.)
posted by hoyland at 6:06 PM on November 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by hoyland at 6:06 PM on November 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
Best answer: In the same way that fantasising about being a lesbian might be a tell, "I tend to connect very easily with other women" kind of came across as a tell to me (a nonbinary/transmasculine person) - perhaps you meant "other" in the sense of "women who are not my wife", or perhaps you meant it in the sense of "women who are not me".
My own journey involved stages like "I'm definitely not trans" and "ok so maybe I'm trans but I'm never going to act on it or come out" and now I am out and have pursued social and medical transition. It sounds like there's plenty for you to explore here, no matter what conclusion you come to.
posted by terretu at 7:16 PM on November 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
My own journey involved stages like "I'm definitely not trans" and "ok so maybe I'm trans but I'm never going to act on it or come out" and now I am out and have pursued social and medical transition. It sounds like there's plenty for you to explore here, no matter what conclusion you come to.
posted by terretu at 7:16 PM on November 15, 2023 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Hi! I’m you on the opposite end of the spectrum. While I don’t have to contend with the gender roles that come along with a family, I (AFAB) have always had closer, more fulfilling friendships with men and find that in general I just fit into masculine-dominated situations better. While I have had to deal with being invited to the bachelorette parties instead of the bachelor parties, in almost all other situations I just make the decision that when a gender divide forms, I go with the guys.
I’ve spent a lot of time grappling with gender identity and have also thought about if I’d be happier as a different gender until I found a term that really suites me that I think you should look into: demigirl (or in your case demiboy/demiguy). For me what I’ve interpreted that to be that really helps me is the following: I am a woman and happy to be so but I can’t “perform” being a woman “correctly” - I experience gender dysphoria when forced to do highly feminine things but it’s just because I can’t do “woman” in the way that society wants me to. But I don’t have to. I can perform being a woman however I want and for me that includes having mostly male friends and having mostly male-skewing hobbies. Because gender is fake. I like the term because it reflects my reality that I’m not uncomfortable at face value with being a woman - I’m just uncomfortable with the societal expectations that come along with it. Could be a term worth looking into!
posted by iguana in a leather jacket at 7:27 PM on November 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
I’ve spent a lot of time grappling with gender identity and have also thought about if I’d be happier as a different gender until I found a term that really suites me that I think you should look into: demigirl (or in your case demiboy/demiguy). For me what I’ve interpreted that to be that really helps me is the following: I am a woman and happy to be so but I can’t “perform” being a woman “correctly” - I experience gender dysphoria when forced to do highly feminine things but it’s just because I can’t do “woman” in the way that society wants me to. But I don’t have to. I can perform being a woman however I want and for me that includes having mostly male friends and having mostly male-skewing hobbies. Because gender is fake. I like the term because it reflects my reality that I’m not uncomfortable at face value with being a woman - I’m just uncomfortable with the societal expectations that come along with it. Could be a term worth looking into!
posted by iguana in a leather jacket at 7:27 PM on November 15, 2023 [8 favorites]
Response by poster: I want to thank everyone for your deeply thoughtful responses - I am humbled by the corrections to how I presented things, reflective on the differing ways that I might look at how I am feeling, and inspired to find the courage to reach out to my local community. There is a lot here that either resonated or made me feel uncomfortable (which I know is a sign to explore further) and even just having this out in the universe feels...freeing?
I have so much more to think about and explore but thank you again for helping me on my journey.
posted by openhearted at 6:06 AM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
I have so much more to think about and explore but thank you again for helping me on my journey.
posted by openhearted at 6:06 AM on November 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
Best answer: For me gender isn't personally important, but how it can affect my ease in moving through the world is. I fought back against that by curating a less traditionalist social circle. I've ended up with queer/ poly/ hippie friends who tend to buy into that stuff less than average, and it's given me a lot more space to do what feels best.
Note that if your young child means that a lot of your social circle is other people with young children, that tends to magnify gender roles (and heteronormative jealousy) in my experience. If you don't already have child-free or empty nester friends, cultivate them, even if they're not the same age as you.
posted by metasarah at 6:22 AM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Note that if your young child means that a lot of your social circle is other people with young children, that tends to magnify gender roles (and heteronormative jealousy) in my experience. If you don't already have child-free or empty nester friends, cultivate them, even if they're not the same age as you.
posted by metasarah at 6:22 AM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I am late to contribute but my social experience of gender is a lot like yours (and I now identify as nonbinary, for what that is worth). Something I discovered in my twenties that helped make sense of things for me was Eve Sedgwick's work with the concept of homosociality, from which I derived a term to describe me (well, me when I still identified as a man): heterosocial. It is not much next to what everyone else has contributed, but maybe having a word for it could be helpful.
posted by spindle at 1:35 PM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by spindle at 1:35 PM on November 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments
She shares a lot about her coming out as gay, trans, and then non-binary. One of her monikers is "The Trans Handy Ma'am" and she helps people fix things around the house. I've learned a lot from Mercury!
Her handle is @mercurystardusttopz on IG.
posted by Juniper Toast at 10:59 AM on November 15, 2023 [7 favorites]