Tell me about your decision not to self-identify
July 14, 2023 5:15 AM Subscribe
I've realized over the last few years that I'm nonbinary/agender. I am not especially inclined to be public about this or make any name or pronoun changes, and I want to hear from other people who went this route—or considered it, but ultimately chose to be more public.
My presentation is relatively close to my assigned gender but has enough of a "vibe" I guess that trans friends I've talked to about this have said "duh." So I feel like people who matter can tell, but it might be an uphill battle getting cis people to use different pronouns—which would be fine if it seemed worth it, but I just don't care enough! I've had decades of experience of feeling slightly orthogonal to people's perceptions at this point and I don't need or expect people to think or refer to me in a way that feels totally concordant with my personal identity, and meanwhile it feels very private and not anyone's business. I think it probably matters here that I'm middle-aged, and while I've been talking casually about not fully identifying with available genders for 20 years I've only had terminology for it for a fraction of my life and all my habits and expectations are pretty ground in at this point.
This is mostly an issue when asked to give pronouns in a group setting. I feel like my choices are either being untruthful or being overly personal in what is often a professional context. But I also feel like I'm dodging a sort of responsibility to live my truth or whatever, or like I'm being a coward. (Not wanting to have a conversation with family is a factor here! I don't anticipate bad reactions but I do anticipate pushback/questions and again... MYOB!)
If you are also nonbinary or genderqueer in some way Not Cis, and you've chosen to keep that private, how did you reach that decision and how has it been for you? If you were inclined to be private but ended up making a different choice, what factored in and how has that gone? Thank you!
My presentation is relatively close to my assigned gender but has enough of a "vibe" I guess that trans friends I've talked to about this have said "duh." So I feel like people who matter can tell, but it might be an uphill battle getting cis people to use different pronouns—which would be fine if it seemed worth it, but I just don't care enough! I've had decades of experience of feeling slightly orthogonal to people's perceptions at this point and I don't need or expect people to think or refer to me in a way that feels totally concordant with my personal identity, and meanwhile it feels very private and not anyone's business. I think it probably matters here that I'm middle-aged, and while I've been talking casually about not fully identifying with available genders for 20 years I've only had terminology for it for a fraction of my life and all my habits and expectations are pretty ground in at this point.
This is mostly an issue when asked to give pronouns in a group setting. I feel like my choices are either being untruthful or being overly personal in what is often a professional context. But I also feel like I'm dodging a sort of responsibility to live my truth or whatever, or like I'm being a coward. (Not wanting to have a conversation with family is a factor here! I don't anticipate bad reactions but I do anticipate pushback/questions and again... MYOB!)
If you are also nonbinary or genderqueer in some way Not Cis, and you've chosen to keep that private, how did you reach that decision and how has it been for you? If you were inclined to be private but ended up making a different choice, what factored in and how has that gone? Thank you!
I started using she/they pronouns on Zoom, in a very queer/trans friendly space. I considered using those pronouns more publicly, but have been very slow to do so. I am not sure whether I will or not, in the end. Frankly, my identification as non-binary feels…not private, exactly, but not something I owe it to the whole world to explain. What i want is to be able to self-present freely, in a way that feels comfortable and natural to me. If you’re familiar with non-binary people, it’s pretty obvious where I am on the gender spectrum. It is not important to me how other people interpret me, nor is it my obligation to explain it to them, or (God forbid) spend my time and energy correcting them every time they get it wrong.
Talking about my gender, for me, feels like it should be something I decide to do with people I care about, rather than the first thing I’m expected to disclose about myself, immediately following my name. It’s like, for people who are interested in getting to know me and what it’s like for me to move through the world, I’m happy to tell them, as part of us getting to know each other more intimately. But being forced to make a claim about my gender every time I jump into a work meeting with a bunch of oversolicitous randos, who are likely to ask me my pronouns, immediately forget them, and then apologize for forgetting them? Jesus fucking Christ. The whole thing makes me want to claw my face off. I don’t want to have those conversations any more than I want to have a conversation with somebody’s aunt about why I’m wearing a suit to a wedding. Please, please, just leave me alone.
Now, obviously, there is some level of political advocacy involved in being more public; I wouldn’t know there was a category called non- binary if other people hadn’t already come out, and I do think it would’ve made a huge difference to me if that category had been available to me as a kid. So I do what I can, but I’m old, and i’ve been through a lot, so that just isn’t as much as it might be. But I will say that the utopia I’d be advocating for, in my heart, would be a *universal* they/them, for everybody—men, women, non-binary people, cis & straight. I think there are better ways to address the complexities of gender than through pronouns, and I’d love to see the conversation shift in that direction. But, again, that’s just me.
posted by Merricat Blackwood at 6:26 AM on July 14, 2023 [36 favorites]
Talking about my gender, for me, feels like it should be something I decide to do with people I care about, rather than the first thing I’m expected to disclose about myself, immediately following my name. It’s like, for people who are interested in getting to know me and what it’s like for me to move through the world, I’m happy to tell them, as part of us getting to know each other more intimately. But being forced to make a claim about my gender every time I jump into a work meeting with a bunch of oversolicitous randos, who are likely to ask me my pronouns, immediately forget them, and then apologize for forgetting them? Jesus fucking Christ. The whole thing makes me want to claw my face off. I don’t want to have those conversations any more than I want to have a conversation with somebody’s aunt about why I’m wearing a suit to a wedding. Please, please, just leave me alone.
Now, obviously, there is some level of political advocacy involved in being more public; I wouldn’t know there was a category called non- binary if other people hadn’t already come out, and I do think it would’ve made a huge difference to me if that category had been available to me as a kid. So I do what I can, but I’m old, and i’ve been through a lot, so that just isn’t as much as it might be. But I will say that the utopia I’d be advocating for, in my heart, would be a *universal* they/them, for everybody—men, women, non-binary people, cis & straight. I think there are better ways to address the complexities of gender than through pronouns, and I’d love to see the conversation shift in that direction. But, again, that’s just me.
posted by Merricat Blackwood at 6:26 AM on July 14, 2023 [36 favorites]
I'm also agender! I wrestle with this one too, because I keep running into things like recently a coworker saying (of someone who used to work with us) "I don't remember their name but I remember their pronouns were they/them". What a nightmare! I don't want to be remembered as The They/Them Person. I want people to think about and remember me as an individual, and if the only way for that to happen is for them to think of me as a woman, I guess I'll take that tradeoff. Your Mileage May Vary.
Usually when we go around and give pronouns I just....don't. It's usually "name, pronouns, some other thing" so I usually go straight to the other thing.
But like I said, I do wrestle with it. For example, at work, I have a pretty senior job. Sometimes I think about how I could help others by being visible, if they're younger and more scared to speak up. It's tough!
posted by capricorn at 6:36 AM on July 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
Usually when we go around and give pronouns I just....don't. It's usually "name, pronouns, some other thing" so I usually go straight to the other thing.
But like I said, I do wrestle with it. For example, at work, I have a pretty senior job. Sometimes I think about how I could help others by being visible, if they're younger and more scared to speak up. It's tough!
posted by capricorn at 6:36 AM on July 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
This is mostly an issue when asked to give pronouns in a group setting. I feel like my choices are either being untruthful or being overly personal in what is often a professional context. But I also feel like I'm dodging a sort of responsibility to live my truth or whatever, or like I'm being a coward.
I conceptualize the practice this way: The purpose of sharing pronouns isn't that we as individuals are obligated to share our personal truths. It's to make the sharing of that truth routine, so that people who want to share it can do so more easily. If you're not comfortable with sharing, for whatever reason, that's fine.
Obviously, it's not a perfect practice, since not sharing your pronouns will make people wonder why, even if they're too polite to ask. But I don't think we'll ever figure this one out, as a society, as long as we have gendered pronouns and cannot determine a person's gender based on their presentation. Ideally, we'll thread the needle: People who are comfortable with sharing will do so, to create the environment where others can also do so, but people who don't want to share are not pressured to. Obviously in many cases we don't manage that.
you've chosen to keep that private, how did you reach that decision and how has it been for you
I'm still new to this, myself, but I am at the moment pretty comfortable with being out in some circles and not others. My family doesn't know - not because they'd be hateful, but because I just don't want to deal with their concern and questions and earnest attempts to be understanding. I don't think I could say anything without it being a whole to-do, and I don't want a whole to-do.
For all that the right-wing whines about how all these new complicated genders just want attention, I think that my experience is a pretty common one.
I'm also, I suppose, not too uncomfortable with being perceived as a woman. I have in the past referred to myself as one when talking about how I am classified; I am a woman in the sense that society perceives me as one and treats me as one and honestly I don't know what else a woman is, so - okay, interrupting complicated gender thoughts here, but. I suppose I am going to be okay with not being out as long as "she" is acceptable to me, and at the moment it is. I still say "she/they" in circles where I am out.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:54 AM on July 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
I conceptualize the practice this way: The purpose of sharing pronouns isn't that we as individuals are obligated to share our personal truths. It's to make the sharing of that truth routine, so that people who want to share it can do so more easily. If you're not comfortable with sharing, for whatever reason, that's fine.
Obviously, it's not a perfect practice, since not sharing your pronouns will make people wonder why, even if they're too polite to ask. But I don't think we'll ever figure this one out, as a society, as long as we have gendered pronouns and cannot determine a person's gender based on their presentation. Ideally, we'll thread the needle: People who are comfortable with sharing will do so, to create the environment where others can also do so, but people who don't want to share are not pressured to. Obviously in many cases we don't manage that.
you've chosen to keep that private, how did you reach that decision and how has it been for you
I'm still new to this, myself, but I am at the moment pretty comfortable with being out in some circles and not others. My family doesn't know - not because they'd be hateful, but because I just don't want to deal with their concern and questions and earnest attempts to be understanding. I don't think I could say anything without it being a whole to-do, and I don't want a whole to-do.
For all that the right-wing whines about how all these new complicated genders just want attention, I think that my experience is a pretty common one.
I'm also, I suppose, not too uncomfortable with being perceived as a woman. I have in the past referred to myself as one when talking about how I am classified; I am a woman in the sense that society perceives me as one and treats me as one and honestly I don't know what else a woman is, so - okay, interrupting complicated gender thoughts here, but. I suppose I am going to be okay with not being out as long as "she" is acceptable to me, and at the moment it is. I still say "she/they" in circles where I am out.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:54 AM on July 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
When I first came out to myself as nonbinary, I didn't necessarily plan on telling anyone. It felt like my own lovely secret for a while. But the longer I knew that about myself, the more that other people continuing to treat me as my AGAB started to grate.
I really hate making a fuss or drawing attention to myself (grew up British in a home where my needs were reliably placed last compared to those of my caregivers - at least I know why I'm like this, even if I don't always feel like I can change it), and coming out as trans is kind of the epitome of drawing attention to oneself. Still, I got to a point where I just could not bear being casually, cheerfully (with no idea it was causing me pain) referred to using the pronouns associated with my birth gender, or having gendered terms applied to me, especially at work.
You don't owe anyone anything, really. Part of the reason I put off coming out for a long time was because I felt like I "owed" the world a presentation in line with my AGAB, one cisgendered unit like everyone assumed had been born on the day of my birth. That was a constraining and unhelpful thing for me to believe. You also don't owe anyone the truth about your gender identity, for reasons of visiblity or awareness or activism or anything else.
I've found that coming out at work has shoehorned me into more of an activist/educational role than either I or, frankly, my employer are particularly comfortable with, but I guess I could have pushed back on that more if I weren't such a chronic people-pleaser. It's definitely something to be aware of - I read once (can't remember where) that when you come out as trans (or any kind of gender expansive - I'm using trans as a shorthand, not implying that's how you identify) you also have to make the choice about whether you're going to be a trans activist or just a trans person.
I'm glad in a way that I did come out as trans at work and beyond, because coming out as trans is kind of the opposite of people pleasing when you consider how many people are displeased that we exist at all. But I still get misgendered/wrong pronouns used all the time, even though I've been out for nearly three years and have my pronouns plastered all over every work platform I use and I'm known to do advocacy stuff around it at work. If I hadn't come out, I'd have been low-grade disappointed and frustrated by pretty much every work interaction without any way of bringing that up. Since I did come out, I can at least say, "hey, I don't use those pronouns" or mention it to my manager if it's becoming egregious or whatever.
I kinda got semi-coerced into coming out a bit sooner than I would have preferred at work. Work annouced they were introducing optional pronoun sharing, but because I'd already been vocal about diversity/equity/inclusion stuff I knew that other people would definitely expect me to role model that change, and that they'd also expect me to share the pronouns associated with my AGAB, and I knew I couldn't do that comfortably or in good faith, so I came out and expressed my actual preferred pronouns instead. Another story in which the moral is that I contorted myself based on what other people expected of me, but with an outcome that's at least somewhat benefitted me too.
I realise this has been kind of rambling and meandering, so to summarise I guess my own experience is that my desire to identify publicly as nonbinary and trans (I'm now comfortable with both terms, though I wasn't always as comfortable with "trans") has been a process of fluidity and exploration, just like the process of figuring out my gender identity in the first place. I don't particularly regret any stage of it, and I have some nostalgia for the era when it was just a delicious secret between me and the universe that I might have chosen to keep a secret for the rest of my life. Current-day me is significantly more likely to get harrassed in a bathroom, appearance-wise, but I also don't regret that people know who I am now, and it's deepened a bunch of relationships both personal and professional in ways I hadn't anticipated but do value. It's an imperfect experience in a bunch of ways, just less imperfect for me personally than pretending to be cis was.
posted by terretu at 8:30 AM on July 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
I really hate making a fuss or drawing attention to myself (grew up British in a home where my needs were reliably placed last compared to those of my caregivers - at least I know why I'm like this, even if I don't always feel like I can change it), and coming out as trans is kind of the epitome of drawing attention to oneself. Still, I got to a point where I just could not bear being casually, cheerfully (with no idea it was causing me pain) referred to using the pronouns associated with my birth gender, or having gendered terms applied to me, especially at work.
You don't owe anyone anything, really. Part of the reason I put off coming out for a long time was because I felt like I "owed" the world a presentation in line with my AGAB, one cisgendered unit like everyone assumed had been born on the day of my birth. That was a constraining and unhelpful thing for me to believe. You also don't owe anyone the truth about your gender identity, for reasons of visiblity or awareness or activism or anything else.
I've found that coming out at work has shoehorned me into more of an activist/educational role than either I or, frankly, my employer are particularly comfortable with, but I guess I could have pushed back on that more if I weren't such a chronic people-pleaser. It's definitely something to be aware of - I read once (can't remember where) that when you come out as trans (or any kind of gender expansive - I'm using trans as a shorthand, not implying that's how you identify) you also have to make the choice about whether you're going to be a trans activist or just a trans person.
I'm glad in a way that I did come out as trans at work and beyond, because coming out as trans is kind of the opposite of people pleasing when you consider how many people are displeased that we exist at all. But I still get misgendered/wrong pronouns used all the time, even though I've been out for nearly three years and have my pronouns plastered all over every work platform I use and I'm known to do advocacy stuff around it at work. If I hadn't come out, I'd have been low-grade disappointed and frustrated by pretty much every work interaction without any way of bringing that up. Since I did come out, I can at least say, "hey, I don't use those pronouns" or mention it to my manager if it's becoming egregious or whatever.
I kinda got semi-coerced into coming out a bit sooner than I would have preferred at work. Work annouced they were introducing optional pronoun sharing, but because I'd already been vocal about diversity/equity/inclusion stuff I knew that other people would definitely expect me to role model that change, and that they'd also expect me to share the pronouns associated with my AGAB, and I knew I couldn't do that comfortably or in good faith, so I came out and expressed my actual preferred pronouns instead. Another story in which the moral is that I contorted myself based on what other people expected of me, but with an outcome that's at least somewhat benefitted me too.
I realise this has been kind of rambling and meandering, so to summarise I guess my own experience is that my desire to identify publicly as nonbinary and trans (I'm now comfortable with both terms, though I wasn't always as comfortable with "trans") has been a process of fluidity and exploration, just like the process of figuring out my gender identity in the first place. I don't particularly regret any stage of it, and I have some nostalgia for the era when it was just a delicious secret between me and the universe that I might have chosen to keep a secret for the rest of my life. Current-day me is significantly more likely to get harrassed in a bathroom, appearance-wise, but I also don't regret that people know who I am now, and it's deepened a bunch of relationships both personal and professional in ways I hadn't anticipated but do value. It's an imperfect experience in a bunch of ways, just less imperfect for me personally than pretending to be cis was.
posted by terretu at 8:30 AM on July 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
I should note that I've so far kept my gendered birth name, which has at least doubled the struggle on getting people to use my actual pronouns. I've considered changing it, but for some reason that decision feels even more complex and difficult than other challenging questions like coming out at work or choosing to get top surgery.
posted by terretu at 8:32 AM on July 14, 2023
posted by terretu at 8:32 AM on July 14, 2023
Regarding pronoun-sharing in a group setting, perhaps "People use [pronouns of your assigned gender] for me"?
It's a variation on hoyland's answer to a previous question, "I usually use pronouns like...", which you could also consider.
posted by What is E. T. short for? at 8:34 AM on July 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's a variation on hoyland's answer to a previous question, "I usually use pronouns like...", which you could also consider.
posted by What is E. T. short for? at 8:34 AM on July 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
A lot of these answers resonate with me. I also wanted to add that for me, the literal last thing I want to center in my interactions with others is my gender and its presentation. So being like "HEY, NICE TO MEET YOU, THINK ABOUT MY GENDER A LOT, I'M DOING AN UNUSUAL THING!!!" is extremely counterproductive. So I just roll with my factory issue pronouns because as far as most people are concerned my gender is "please stop thinking about me and gender in the same sentence."
posted by potrzebie at 9:04 AM on July 14, 2023 [33 favorites]
posted by potrzebie at 9:04 AM on July 14, 2023 [33 favorites]
But I also feel like I'm dodging a sort of responsibility to live my truth or whatever, or like I'm being a coward.
I think the recent trend in queer spaces, of being expected to rigorously interrogate and label so many aspects of one’s own personal queer identity, can be as harmful for some people as it is helpful for others. It can enforce a rigidity that, while outside of the binary, is just as prescriptive as the binary. The words and concepts we use now are A WAY of conceptualizing and understanding our identities, but they are not the only valid ways. You have no obligation to adopt any particular label just because someone else tells you that you fit that label.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:53 AM on July 14, 2023 [16 favorites]
I think the recent trend in queer spaces, of being expected to rigorously interrogate and label so many aspects of one’s own personal queer identity, can be as harmful for some people as it is helpful for others. It can enforce a rigidity that, while outside of the binary, is just as prescriptive as the binary. The words and concepts we use now are A WAY of conceptualizing and understanding our identities, but they are not the only valid ways. You have no obligation to adopt any particular label just because someone else tells you that you fit that label.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:53 AM on July 14, 2023 [16 favorites]
This year, I started having thoughts like, "I'm not a woman" or having a general feeling of apathy about my gender... But life is busy, and I have bigger fish to fry, so I haven't formally figured out what those thoughts mean to me. In my queer community, I brought up these thoughts and feelings and I had folks who could identify and commiserate with me, which felt very validating. Right now, I'll mostly keep my thoughts on my gender to myself, but, when I'm ready, I think I'll be more open about it - work included.
So many good things have come out of coming out about as Bi. On the Two Bi Guys podcast ("Dr. Mimi Hoang is Bi on Life!"), Dr. Mimi Hoang talked about the idea that people are better off when they have more congruence - when their internal self and external self are more aligned. I think that expressing my non-cis-gendered-ness (whatever that ends up being) will help me feel more congruent. For that reason alone, I want to be more out about it, eventually - when I have more clarity and the energy...
posted by skunk pig at 2:29 PM on July 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
So many good things have come out of coming out about as Bi. On the Two Bi Guys podcast ("Dr. Mimi Hoang is Bi on Life!"), Dr. Mimi Hoang talked about the idea that people are better off when they have more congruence - when their internal self and external self are more aligned. I think that expressing my non-cis-gendered-ness (whatever that ends up being) will help me feel more congruent. For that reason alone, I want to be more out about it, eventually - when I have more clarity and the energy...
posted by skunk pig at 2:29 PM on July 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Thank you for asking this question as I wrestle with this too as an elder millennial. Here's a response to another question that I had written in 2021 where I'm rattling about the pronouns issue.
Over the past two years, my headspace is in thinking about how aspects of identities have different saliences - that one's race or religion or national identity etc. can be more or less important to different people. The salience of an aspect of identity is also really situational. Being an English speaker doesn't feel very important until I'm in a situation where I'm surrounded by another language that I don't speak well. In that way, my gender is something that generally has a very, very low salience for me. I'd rather not put pronouns in my signature because I don't want to signal that my gender is an identifier for me.
Fittingly, the only time I start to think about gender is when people treat me in a gendered way. For example, if someone makes assumptions about me as a person based on some idea of Being a Woman, then I start to get irritated and feel solidarity with other people who have been trapped within those artificial walls with me.
At the same time, I still don't feel like I fit within the trans label in that that also puts an importance on gender that I don't feel. That said, I do have she/they in a few places just to signal a certain level of "not in the target center of the Womanness" and a bit of solidarity. But really, for me, I wish that I had a signal to say "ask me about literally anything else".
posted by past unusual at 3:54 PM on July 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
Over the past two years, my headspace is in thinking about how aspects of identities have different saliences - that one's race or religion or national identity etc. can be more or less important to different people. The salience of an aspect of identity is also really situational. Being an English speaker doesn't feel very important until I'm in a situation where I'm surrounded by another language that I don't speak well. In that way, my gender is something that generally has a very, very low salience for me. I'd rather not put pronouns in my signature because I don't want to signal that my gender is an identifier for me.
Fittingly, the only time I start to think about gender is when people treat me in a gendered way. For example, if someone makes assumptions about me as a person based on some idea of Being a Woman, then I start to get irritated and feel solidarity with other people who have been trapped within those artificial walls with me.
At the same time, I still don't feel like I fit within the trans label in that that also puts an importance on gender that I don't feel. That said, I do have she/they in a few places just to signal a certain level of "not in the target center of the Womanness" and a bit of solidarity. But really, for me, I wish that I had a signal to say "ask me about literally anything else".
posted by past unusual at 3:54 PM on July 14, 2023 [5 favorites]
My deep personal stance on pronouns is that none of them feel right for me and I wish we didn't need them.
My public stance is that I don't want to talk about it, so she/her is fine. In a very few places I'm she/they.
I share she/her pronouns in conservative settings when I think it helps cis people get used to the idea of pronouns or maybe want to ask me questions or debate me about pronouns, a topic on which I will readily engage / educate in a general space.
I also sometimes choose NOT to share my pronouns in more open-minded settings, because I also want to make it ok for others to NOT share pronouns if they're not ready to.
As a general state of being, I really barraged by racism, which I can't opt out of - so I don't have the bandwidth to open myself up to any other oppression by making my pronouns a topic of conversation. Privately, I don't feel right claiming any pronouns. Visually, I give off just enough queer vibes to have many people assume I'd use she/her, but observant queer people notice my vibe and ask my pronouns. I don't love being called she/her - but I can opt-out of that being a problem by just giving permission for others to use she/her with me, so I do that to ease friction. My capacity for friction is all-racissed-out!
posted by nouvelle-personne at 4:05 PM on July 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
My public stance is that I don't want to talk about it, so she/her is fine. In a very few places I'm she/they.
I share she/her pronouns in conservative settings when I think it helps cis people get used to the idea of pronouns or maybe want to ask me questions or debate me about pronouns, a topic on which I will readily engage / educate in a general space.
I also sometimes choose NOT to share my pronouns in more open-minded settings, because I also want to make it ok for others to NOT share pronouns if they're not ready to.
As a general state of being, I really barraged by racism, which I can't opt out of - so I don't have the bandwidth to open myself up to any other oppression by making my pronouns a topic of conversation. Privately, I don't feel right claiming any pronouns. Visually, I give off just enough queer vibes to have many people assume I'd use she/her, but observant queer people notice my vibe and ask my pronouns. I don't love being called she/her - but I can opt-out of that being a problem by just giving permission for others to use she/her with me, so I do that to ease friction. My capacity for friction is all-racissed-out!
posted by nouvelle-personne at 4:05 PM on July 14, 2023 [13 favorites]
Yeah, this is me. I used to be a lot more visibly androgynous and a lot more assertive about my non-alignment with the gender binary, and it was mostly fine as in usually nobody was shitty about it. And then experimentally I shifted back towards presenting myself more like my assigned gender and suddenly people became so, so much more comfortable around me. It was really interesting to observe, like they weren't sure what to do with me before and it made them nervous but "woman with some odd mannerisms" was a category they were happy to work with. People became friendlier towards me, I literally got invited to more parties.
And I decided that it just wasn't a battle I want to fight. I don't want to put my off-brand gender identity front and center all the time. Close friends either know my history or kinda figure things out, but otherwise I don't want to discuss it or try to justify it with most people. I am already a visible minority in my profession, I don't need to add extra friction or distraction there. I have other stuff going on my life that I want to focus on. I will never be strongly aligned with my assigned gender, which I view as a somewhat ill-fitting suit that I wear out of convenience. But while I'm a vocal advocate against gender stereotypes and gender essentialism, and a vocal supporter of trans rights, by and large I leave my own personal gender identify out of it.
The "state your pronouns when you introduce yourself" thing makes me itch and I opt out where possible. If forced, I try to mess with it a little and say something like "let's go with she and her" and figure that most people won't notice, and the few people that do will understand. That's as truthful as anything else.
posted by 4rtemis at 4:44 PM on July 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
And I decided that it just wasn't a battle I want to fight. I don't want to put my off-brand gender identity front and center all the time. Close friends either know my history or kinda figure things out, but otherwise I don't want to discuss it or try to justify it with most people. I am already a visible minority in my profession, I don't need to add extra friction or distraction there. I have other stuff going on my life that I want to focus on. I will never be strongly aligned with my assigned gender, which I view as a somewhat ill-fitting suit that I wear out of convenience. But while I'm a vocal advocate against gender stereotypes and gender essentialism, and a vocal supporter of trans rights, by and large I leave my own personal gender identify out of it.
The "state your pronouns when you introduce yourself" thing makes me itch and I opt out where possible. If forced, I try to mess with it a little and say something like "let's go with she and her" and figure that most people won't notice, and the few people that do will understand. That's as truthful as anything else.
posted by 4rtemis at 4:44 PM on July 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
I'm an AFAB guy who lives as a butch lesbian to the world's eyes. I'm out to a few important people irl, but don't ever see myself physically transitioning for Reasons.
When asked publicly about my pronouns I go with "I don't really care, use any pronouns except it/its." That usually gets a few chuckles and everybody relaxes. Individual mileage will vary, of course.
posted by Vigilant at 5:04 PM on July 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
When asked publicly about my pronouns I go with "I don't really care, use any pronouns except it/its." That usually gets a few chuckles and everybody relaxes. Individual mileage will vary, of course.
posted by Vigilant at 5:04 PM on July 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
I've felt this and have thought a lot about it and here are some things I've come up with: 1. pronouns are very much at the center of a lot of gender friction and politicization in our current culture, but not necessarily the end-all-be-all or most meaningful facet of gender expression for everyone. The three (more or less) options currently don't do anything for me. But I HAVE felt the 'gender euphoria' sense when I've done other things that better express my gender(or lack thereof), such as the way I dress, carry myself, or wear my hair. Getting called they over she doesn't do much inside me, it doesn't make me feel seen, but neither does she, and def not he. My wife uses they and she, and is nonbinary. I know what that public change meant to her, and I can see clearly what it doesn't mean to me. 2. the current paradigm of identities and labels are not necessarily the most true system for explaining every thread in the weave of the human fabric, so to speak. They are the best we can do at present, and against all odds, even. Yet it's just a start. There is a current distinction between ones romantic and sexual attraction, one's gender identity, and I'd say that my lesbian identity has more to do with my gender identity than anything else about me. If "dyke" were a gender box, I'd just check that. 3. it being a private journey, isn't wrong. Wanting your gender to be the fourth, twentieth, or even least, important thing about you is okay. Or if you feel in a place of in-betweenness and that's not a whole thing you always wanna get into that's chill. You're not failing anyone! the personal is political blah blah blah, it also is still personal too.
posted by wellifyouinsist at 5:27 PM on July 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by wellifyouinsist at 5:27 PM on July 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't have anything super helpful to add, I don't think I can articulate my version of this yet, I just wanted to say I really appreciate this question and all of the answers.
posted by jameaterblues at 7:00 PM on July 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by jameaterblues at 7:00 PM on July 14, 2023 [7 favorites]
I consider myself non-binary and I suppose I always have- it took me a while to realize that I was a lesbian not because I wasn't interested in girls, but because I didn't think of myself as a GIRL that liked girls. But honestly, I'm so ambivalent about my lack of gender identity that it doesn't really matter to me what people call me. I use female pronouns and call myself a woman because that's how society sees me. I don't think my relationship with myself is like important to involve the rest of the world with because it doesn't cause me distress to be called feminine. If it causes you distress to be identified as a particular gender, I'd look at being more actively identified as the thing that causes you less pain even if it seems awkward. But to me, my gender is so unimportant that I more closely identify as my shoe size than whatever pronouns I'm given that day.
posted by shesaysgo at 9:31 PM on July 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by shesaysgo at 9:31 PM on July 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
I mostly think of myself as me inside a female-shaped body, and my name is agender which helps a lot. I love that “for this purpose, my pronouns are -“ elide of the question and will use that! I had a bad interaction last year with a colleague who was helpful until they saw some LGBTQ pins on my work bag and iced me afterwards, so I’m being deliberate about work identity now, not blithe. I’ve got zero issues with someone who stays in the closet in some situations to avoid dealing with haters - we have to pick our battles!
I will say that the Murderbot series is an absolute boon to listen to if you are agender. I have a very strong overlap with Murderbot’s views on gender and wish I too could have removable arms with gunports, not in a haha that’s cute metaphor but damn, that sounds amazing to have a functional body that doesn’t do this useless gender stuff I don’t need.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 10:20 PM on July 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
I will say that the Murderbot series is an absolute boon to listen to if you are agender. I have a very strong overlap with Murderbot’s views on gender and wish I too could have removable arms with gunports, not in a haha that’s cute metaphor but damn, that sounds amazing to have a functional body that doesn’t do this useless gender stuff I don’t need.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 10:20 PM on July 14, 2023 [2 favorites]
I am very visibly trans (can't be helped due to my personality and my transition needs) but I have some friends who are more similar to you. They avoid saying their pronouns publicly. One of them told me and another good friend that they'd like for us to use they for them, but please not to do it around people who would want to know the Truth about their Identity. They feel that there is no "identity" they just want to live their life. Fair Enough. Once you're out as Something people will expect you to act like that something and often chastise you for not acting how they think that something should be. If you have a more comfortable path for yourself than that one, I encourage you to take it! It's stressful to feel scrutinized all the time.
I mostly think of having Gender Stuff in terms of what kinds of needs we have rather than Identities. It's similar to accessibility needs. If people knowing and validating your experience of gender isn't a need of yours, great! That's one less accommodation to push for. If that changes and you do need it, then luckily people are increasingly familiar with that set of needs and will hopefully be able to meet that.
I will say that there are people who don't need public pronouns but do need hormones, private acknowledgement from partners, or surgery, so it is worth leaving yourself open to those I think. Needs change and you never know what may allow you to feel better :)
posted by Summers at 3:50 AM on July 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
I mostly think of having Gender Stuff in terms of what kinds of needs we have rather than Identities. It's similar to accessibility needs. If people knowing and validating your experience of gender isn't a need of yours, great! That's one less accommodation to push for. If that changes and you do need it, then luckily people are increasingly familiar with that set of needs and will hopefully be able to meet that.
I will say that there are people who don't need public pronouns but do need hormones, private acknowledgement from partners, or surgery, so it is worth leaving yourself open to those I think. Needs change and you never know what may allow you to feel better :)
posted by Summers at 3:50 AM on July 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
I am a 62 year old lesbian who has been out for 42 years. For many years, I've thought of gender as a spectrum (similar to sexual orientation) and me towards the middle of that spectrum. I first got mistaken for a boy when I was three years old, and was often mistaken in later years even when I had long hair and large breasts. I didn't identify as butch until I was in my late 20's. When I came out, identifying as butch or femme, at least in the circles I was in, was seen as patriarchal and I wanted to fit into my new community.
In the past few years, I've said that if I were in my 20's, I'd probably identify as non-binary, but I don't identify that way currently and I don't envision that changing. It doesn't feel that important to me personally (which is not to take away from anyone for whom it does feel important), and it feels like another battle I don't personally want to take on at this point in my life. Maybe that makes me not really non-binary, IDK.
I am comfortable at this point identifying as a butch lesbian. I wear men's clothes. I have a very short haircut which I'm quite proud of :). The way I present to the world is the way I always felt inside, even as a teenager with long hair in gunne sax looking dresses going to church several times a week. I feel comfortable in my skin, and that is worth a lot to me.
posted by elmay at 6:10 AM on July 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
In the past few years, I've said that if I were in my 20's, I'd probably identify as non-binary, but I don't identify that way currently and I don't envision that changing. It doesn't feel that important to me personally (which is not to take away from anyone for whom it does feel important), and it feels like another battle I don't personally want to take on at this point in my life. Maybe that makes me not really non-binary, IDK.
I am comfortable at this point identifying as a butch lesbian. I wear men's clothes. I have a very short haircut which I'm quite proud of :). The way I present to the world is the way I always felt inside, even as a teenager with long hair in gunne sax looking dresses going to church several times a week. I feel comfortable in my skin, and that is worth a lot to me.
posted by elmay at 6:10 AM on July 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
So, uh, this is close enough to my experience that a IRL friend that is also on MeFi texted to ask if I'd written this question (I didn't). I changed my pronouns here, on Metafilter, to she/they, but it's the only place I've done it so far, except to a few friends who were . . . how shall I put this? . . . Less surprised than I thought they would be, given that I am both cis-presenting (like my happy place is in the evening gown section) and generally attracted to men. Anyway, I don't really feel super-strongly about the pronouns or the coming out, except that if I know me, and my big mouth, it will happen when I'm around someone and they make some "I don't know how I feel about this hole non-binary thing, are those people even real?" And I'll be like, "uh, you're talking to one of them, asshole." Or something.
This is a good thread. Thank you.
posted by thivaia at 6:59 AM on July 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
This is a good thread. Thank you.
posted by thivaia at 6:59 AM on July 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
There is a "use my name instead" view which doesn't seem to draw as much attention as you might think - at least not where I work.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 1:56 PM on July 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Lesser Shrew at 1:56 PM on July 15, 2023 [1 favorite]
I loved reading this thread.
I am agender, but for the purpose of people understanding me I usually say I am trans/nonbinary. "Agender" is too confusing.
I was not out for a long time, even when I consciously chose to wear clothing that didn't comport with my gender assigned at birth. It would have complicated my work and family contexts. I eventually changed careers and realized that in my new career (which I expect to follow for the rest of my life) radical honesty was necessary. I began asking for they/them pronouns and have become something of an advocate for fellow gender non conforming people as a result.
In the process, I have become less and less comfortable with "passing" to the point that when I travel internationally to places that I can't express my gender, I feel bad. I also really insist on my pronouns now and require that people acknowledge my gender as a basic element for friendship. I slightly regret that this has changed because it foreclosed on some relationships. But, I also feel I'm being more honest and transparent and letting people see the real me, not a false front. There are real trade offs. I would not change my choice.
Of course, if I lived in a different place or time I probably would never be in this position. I would have been capable of living a life as the gender I was assigned at birth, just a slightly more gender neutral end of the spectrum there. Culture and linguistic elements have a lot to do with how I define myself!
posted by branca at 7:47 AM on July 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
I am agender, but for the purpose of people understanding me I usually say I am trans/nonbinary. "Agender" is too confusing.
I was not out for a long time, even when I consciously chose to wear clothing that didn't comport with my gender assigned at birth. It would have complicated my work and family contexts. I eventually changed careers and realized that in my new career (which I expect to follow for the rest of my life) radical honesty was necessary. I began asking for they/them pronouns and have become something of an advocate for fellow gender non conforming people as a result.
In the process, I have become less and less comfortable with "passing" to the point that when I travel internationally to places that I can't express my gender, I feel bad. I also really insist on my pronouns now and require that people acknowledge my gender as a basic element for friendship. I slightly regret that this has changed because it foreclosed on some relationships. But, I also feel I'm being more honest and transparent and letting people see the real me, not a false front. There are real trade offs. I would not change my choice.
Of course, if I lived in a different place or time I probably would never be in this position. I would have been capable of living a life as the gender I was assigned at birth, just a slightly more gender neutral end of the spectrum there. Culture and linguistic elements have a lot to do with how I define myself!
posted by branca at 7:47 AM on July 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
The older I get, the more convinced I am that I'm agender. I also don't have any particular inclination to change my pronouns -- she/her is fine with me, they don't cause me any discomfort, and I honestly think I'm too lazy to deal with the work involved in changing my pronouns at work, etc. -- or be terribly public about it. So you are definitely not alone!
posted by maryellenreads at 11:32 AM on July 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by maryellenreads at 11:32 AM on July 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Just want to add my appreciation for this thread and to say this question and many of the responses reasonate with me. I basically feel in a different timeline I would dig more deeply, and perhaps more publicly, into exactly what gender applies to me but I sorta feel like that ship has passed me by in this timeline. I don't feel the sort of gnaw-my-own-foot-off-to-escape-from-a-trap sense of panic that I've experienced at the thought of suppressing some other parts of my identity, just more of a wistfulness, if that makes sense, and I'm okay with it.
posted by ferret branca at 7:33 PM on July 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by ferret branca at 7:33 PM on July 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
Just wanted to add this link to a similar question on autostraddle as a resource for those who might come across this thread later.
posted by skunk pig at 4:46 PM on August 15, 2023
posted by skunk pig at 4:46 PM on August 15, 2023
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This is mostly an issue when asked to give pronouns in a group setting. I feel like my choices are either being untruthful or being overly personal in what is often a professional context. Are these situations where you can ignore it in the moment, and gently push back after the fact? Encouraging people to share their pronouns is awesome, but requiring it is often uncomfortable for people (as you're seeing!), and I've had success gently discouraging this behavior in otherwise well-meaning people who don't understand how it can be a bad experience, especially in professional settings. You don't have to frame it as advocating for yourself, but as a best practice to not require people to potentially choose between lying and outing themselves.
posted by okayokayigive at 6:11 AM on July 14, 2023 [4 favorites]