Partner made an insulting joke about my competence, am I overreacting
October 11, 2023 8:34 PM
I've been dealing with a toxic work environment lately, and it's been wearing on my self-confidence and emotionally/mentally draining since some of the bullies at work insult people or passive-aggressively make people feel stupid. My partner recently made a joke that implied I was incompetent and don't know what I'm doing, and I don't know if this is a red/yellow flag.
I've been dealing with a toxic work environment lately, where some management level people have been bullying everyone else (lying, sabotaging, talking down, verbal abuse, gaslighting, stealing credit, etc.). I am figuring out my next steps, but for now I am still need to show up for work every day. It got to a point recently where multiple people on the team (all of whom were great, hard working, smart coworkers who actually did the work) quit or left recently, and they have reported it to HR and been vocal about the toxic management/culture being the reason they're leaving.
I was saying goodbyes to one of them, and they told me as a way of being supportive that I shouldn't doubt myself because all the toxic people are incompetent and don't know what they're doing, and they hide it by putting other people down/making other people feel bad about themselves. That kind of culture really impacts and damages your confidence if you've been in that for too long, and a lot of us were being affected in this way.
So later that day, I was recapping the day to my partner, and I only just started saying "I had a goodbye meetup with my coworker who's leaving, and they said all those people there are incompetent and don't know what they're doing". And my partner said in a joking manner "Oh, were they talking about you? haha."
I actually felt really hurt by this, my partner knows about everything that's been going on and how I already am mentally drained by having to take the hits to confidence at work and dealing with the toxic environment. And I just felt it was really inappropriate and insulting for him to joke that I'm incompetent and don't know what I'm doing. Like I already have to deal with it all day at work, and then have him pile on me even more at home.
I know sometimes people have "foot in their mouth" syndrome, but I think this cut a little deeper because in the past, every once in awhile he's made jokes that make me feel stupid like sarcastically saying "well DUH it's so and so" or "yeah OF COURSE this would be etc etc.".
He also has made comments that imply the company he works for is superior and that people who work there are smarter than everyone else. It's not super frequent though, only like a few times a year. When I tell him it bothers me, he seems genuinely sorry and definitely stops saying that particular thing (like he stopped saying "DUH"), but then after awhile he'll make a joke that still makes me feel that way. I've mostly gotten over the other times, but this one seems to more tied to him saying he thinks I'm incompetent, and competence is actually something that's important to me. After I told him it bothered me, he said "it was just a joke." and then later "it was just a bad joke." He was very apologetic the next morning.
Just wanted to get some outsider opinions on this. I've been in relationships before where people used these kinds of jokes and over time it just made you feel more stupid, or incompetent, or ugly etc. I can't really imagine I would make jokes like that to someone I cared about ever, but are little insulting jokes just inevitable in long-term relationships (like a few times a year)? Is this just a case of "foot in mouth/bad joke" or something of a flag?
I've been dealing with a toxic work environment lately, where some management level people have been bullying everyone else (lying, sabotaging, talking down, verbal abuse, gaslighting, stealing credit, etc.). I am figuring out my next steps, but for now I am still need to show up for work every day. It got to a point recently where multiple people on the team (all of whom were great, hard working, smart coworkers who actually did the work) quit or left recently, and they have reported it to HR and been vocal about the toxic management/culture being the reason they're leaving.
I was saying goodbyes to one of them, and they told me as a way of being supportive that I shouldn't doubt myself because all the toxic people are incompetent and don't know what they're doing, and they hide it by putting other people down/making other people feel bad about themselves. That kind of culture really impacts and damages your confidence if you've been in that for too long, and a lot of us were being affected in this way.
So later that day, I was recapping the day to my partner, and I only just started saying "I had a goodbye meetup with my coworker who's leaving, and they said all those people there are incompetent and don't know what they're doing". And my partner said in a joking manner "Oh, were they talking about you? haha."
I actually felt really hurt by this, my partner knows about everything that's been going on and how I already am mentally drained by having to take the hits to confidence at work and dealing with the toxic environment. And I just felt it was really inappropriate and insulting for him to joke that I'm incompetent and don't know what I'm doing. Like I already have to deal with it all day at work, and then have him pile on me even more at home.
I know sometimes people have "foot in their mouth" syndrome, but I think this cut a little deeper because in the past, every once in awhile he's made jokes that make me feel stupid like sarcastically saying "well DUH it's so and so" or "yeah OF COURSE this would be etc etc.".
He also has made comments that imply the company he works for is superior and that people who work there are smarter than everyone else. It's not super frequent though, only like a few times a year. When I tell him it bothers me, he seems genuinely sorry and definitely stops saying that particular thing (like he stopped saying "DUH"), but then after awhile he'll make a joke that still makes me feel that way. I've mostly gotten over the other times, but this one seems to more tied to him saying he thinks I'm incompetent, and competence is actually something that's important to me. After I told him it bothered me, he said "it was just a joke." and then later "it was just a bad joke." He was very apologetic the next morning.
Just wanted to get some outsider opinions on this. I've been in relationships before where people used these kinds of jokes and over time it just made you feel more stupid, or incompetent, or ugly etc. I can't really imagine I would make jokes like that to someone I cared about ever, but are little insulting jokes just inevitable in long-term relationships (like a few times a year)? Is this just a case of "foot in mouth/bad joke" or something of a flag?
Little insulting jokes may be common in some relationships but they are absolutely not inevitable. I think the key question is what happens next if you tell your partner that the comment hit you wrong way? Good answer: "Sorry, that was stupid of me." Bad answer:"Can't you take a joke?"
Yes, people put their foot in their mouth from time to time but a loving partner will care when something they do hurts your feelings (even if they didn't mean it that way). The partner who dismisses you as being too sensitive is the one that you want to avoid because is suggests an underlying level of disrespect that is corrosive to you and to the relationship.
posted by metahawk at 8:43 PM on October 11, 2023
Yes, people put their foot in their mouth from time to time but a loving partner will care when something they do hurts your feelings (even if they didn't mean it that way). The partner who dismisses you as being too sensitive is the one that you want to avoid because is suggests an underlying level of disrespect that is corrosive to you and to the relationship.
posted by metahawk at 8:43 PM on October 11, 2023
He needs to step up his apology game. Flowers with a card addressed to the smartest person he knows, complete with a recitation of other attributes of yours that he recognizes and appreciates, would go a long way.
posted by shock muppet at 8:49 PM on October 11, 2023
posted by shock muppet at 8:49 PM on October 11, 2023
Everyone’s “bad joke” comfort level varies, often by subject and day. To me, this joke seems pretty benign, assuming you believe that he genuinely finds you to be competent. If you suspect he thinks you’re incompetent, it is immediately an unfunny joke/an insult.
It’s fair to ask for an apology and also ask that he not make jokes about your competence right now.
posted by samthemander at 8:55 PM on October 11, 2023
It’s fair to ask for an apology and also ask that he not make jokes about your competence right now.
posted by samthemander at 8:55 PM on October 11, 2023
Thanks everyone for the replies. I'll try talking to him about the lack of respect issue that @praemunire brought up, that's a good idea.
To @metahawk's point, he doesn't ever say "Can't you take a joke" "you're being too sensitive" etc. at least.
His apology game is not as high as @shockmuppet's unfortunately, as in his apology he said he has trouble saying nice things about me because he's just not good at that kind of thing.
And to @samthemander's comment, I agree that if I believed he genuinely finds me competent then this wouldn't be a big deal at all. But because he has made other insulting jokes/comments in the past that implied he/his company/coworkers are superior, I'm not so sure anymore. He did repeatedly say "I don't think you're incompetent" when he was apologizing, but he also said "I've never worked directly with someone in your field, so I don't really know what the benchmark is". Which kind of made it worse because I feel like the point is you believe in and have faith in your partner and don't need an actual benchmark to decide whether to think poorly of them or not.
posted by bellalia at 9:18 PM on October 11, 2023
To @metahawk's point, he doesn't ever say "Can't you take a joke" "you're being too sensitive" etc. at least.
His apology game is not as high as @shockmuppet's unfortunately, as in his apology he said he has trouble saying nice things about me because he's just not good at that kind of thing.
And to @samthemander's comment, I agree that if I believed he genuinely finds me competent then this wouldn't be a big deal at all. But because he has made other insulting jokes/comments in the past that implied he/his company/coworkers are superior, I'm not so sure anymore. He did repeatedly say "I don't think you're incompetent" when he was apologizing, but he also said "I've never worked directly with someone in your field, so I don't really know what the benchmark is". Which kind of made it worse because I feel like the point is you believe in and have faith in your partner and don't need an actual benchmark to decide whether to think poorly of them or not.
posted by bellalia at 9:18 PM on October 11, 2023
"just not good at that sort of thing" and yet unable to pick up and learn it as a new skill? How would that square with your or his definitions of competence?
posted by brainwane at 9:23 PM on October 11, 2023
posted by brainwane at 9:23 PM on October 11, 2023
I have no idea if what your partner said was a foot in mouth sitch or was a biting comment they tried to pass off as a joke. But, you do. I do not think you would have asked the question if you thought it benign. I also do not know anything about your relationship or communication style, but if it were me, I would tell your partner that what they said, joke or no joke, really upset you and you would like to know that they really do have your back and your best interests at heart and you would appreciate they do not make jokes about your competence and are more supportive when talking about work.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:24 PM on October 11, 2023
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:24 PM on October 11, 2023
I come from a family where A LOT of teasing goes on and my partner and I tease each other quite a bit. But insulting, no, never. And when one person carries on teasing past someone else's tolerance level, it's okay to tell that person to knock it off and they do with sincere apologies.
This is all to say that jokes that come with an underlying meanness or insult is not something I would tolerate. It suggests contempt, which is eventually a relationship killer.
posted by brookeb at 10:31 PM on October 11, 2023
This is all to say that jokes that come with an underlying meanness or insult is not something I would tolerate. It suggests contempt, which is eventually a relationship killer.
posted by brookeb at 10:31 PM on October 11, 2023
I’d ask him to explain the joke. Like, where’s the part where it’s supposed to be funny because this anonymous internet person can’t see it.
It looks like he’s seen an opportunity for a cheap shot at you and taken it. And I agree that if he was the guy who normally sang your praises about what a rockstar you were, then it would be seen as a joke because it’s obviously not how he views you.
Instead it’s another one to add to the list of mean little quips he spits out. What’s worse is that he knows it’s hurtful yet he still does it. So yeah, I wouldn’t be impressed at all.
If he wants to knock you down a peg and put a slight chink in your relationship, job done. It may be just a little thing, but the little things are what relationships are made of. Eventually they add up and become big things.
posted by Jubey at 10:33 PM on October 11, 2023
It looks like he’s seen an opportunity for a cheap shot at you and taken it. And I agree that if he was the guy who normally sang your praises about what a rockstar you were, then it would be seen as a joke because it’s obviously not how he views you.
Instead it’s another one to add to the list of mean little quips he spits out. What’s worse is that he knows it’s hurtful yet he still does it. So yeah, I wouldn’t be impressed at all.
If he wants to knock you down a peg and put a slight chink in your relationship, job done. It may be just a little thing, but the little things are what relationships are made of. Eventually they add up and become big things.
posted by Jubey at 10:33 PM on October 11, 2023
In response to @Jubey, I asked him to explain the joke and why he thought it would be funny if it wasn’t meant to be insulting, and he said he “thought it would be funny if your coworker said everyone is incompetent and doesn’t know what they were doing but she actually meant you.”
And I was like, I still don’t see how that’s funny. And he was kind of like I don’t know and couldn’t really elaborate more.
posted by bellalia at 11:54 PM on October 11, 2023
And I was like, I still don’t see how that’s funny. And he was kind of like I don’t know and couldn’t really elaborate more.
posted by bellalia at 11:54 PM on October 11, 2023
OP, I just saw your comment where your partner said he has trouble saying nice things about you…but nasty things apparently just roll straight off this guy’s tongue. Yeah, he’s a real pro at that!
For me, that would be the comment that would make me DTMFA. Someone who can find fault but never good things about you and is alway looking for a way to bring you down is no one I would want to spend any more time with. Even his apology was shit.
You deserve to be with someone who defends you from nasty comments, not the ringleader who’s there starting it.
posted by Jubey at 12:01 AM on October 12, 2023
For me, that would be the comment that would make me DTMFA. Someone who can find fault but never good things about you and is alway looking for a way to bring you down is no one I would want to spend any more time with. Even his apology was shit.
You deserve to be with someone who defends you from nasty comments, not the ringleader who’s there starting it.
posted by Jubey at 12:01 AM on October 12, 2023
A few times a year, like some insult-cold he keeps catching? Disrespectful, yes; see also: negging.
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:14 AM on October 12, 2023
posted by Iris Gambol at 12:14 AM on October 12, 2023
He also has made comments that imply the company he works for is superior and that people who work there are smarter than everyone else. It's not super frequent though, only like a few times a year.
That right there, to me, is a 'once' mistake, not a 'few times a year' mistake. Being smart and superior because of your employer is not actually true and also not actually funny to talk as if it is. And everybody says dumb shit sometimes, whatever, but if you do it again and again I think you mean it and all you've learned is not to be too obvious.
That's just what I see from over here, trust your judgement.
On preview, what Iris Gambol said.
posted by away for regrooving at 12:32 AM on October 12, 2023
That right there, to me, is a 'once' mistake, not a 'few times a year' mistake. Being smart and superior because of your employer is not actually true and also not actually funny to talk as if it is. And everybody says dumb shit sometimes, whatever, but if you do it again and again I think you mean it and all you've learned is not to be too obvious.
That's just what I see from over here, trust your judgement.
On preview, what Iris Gambol said.
posted by away for regrooving at 12:32 AM on October 12, 2023
That comment is…not a joke. I’m very confused by other folks interpreting this as possibly benign joking or teasing, because I just don’t understand why it would ever be funny. Like, what’s the context in which it would be humorous and not insulting to say, “lol what if your coworker thinks you’re dumb??”
To me it seems pretty clearly like an insult disguised as a joke.
Dump him. You deserve someone who thinks you’re amazing, not someone who thinks you’re incompetent, repeatedly insults you about it, and then tries to pass it off as a joke. I’m angry on your behalf!
posted by peperomia at 2:24 AM on October 12, 2023
To me it seems pretty clearly like an insult disguised as a joke.
Dump him. You deserve someone who thinks you’re amazing, not someone who thinks you’re incompetent, repeatedly insults you about it, and then tries to pass it off as a joke. I’m angry on your behalf!
posted by peperomia at 2:24 AM on October 12, 2023
Seems like it was a crass & insensitive thing to say, but I’m not voting for instant DTMFA. It’s still possible to love people who are occasionally crass & insensitive, or otherwise imperfect.
posted by rd45 at 3:58 AM on October 12, 2023
posted by rd45 at 3:58 AM on October 12, 2023
I agree with brookeb that this suggests an underlying degree of contempt, which is a huge problem in any relationship and one he immediately needs to take steps to address. It also suggests that he either doesn’t understand or doesn’t care that you’re having a difficult time and coming to him for support, which is a big problem too.
If you’ve talked to him already along the lines of ‘that wasn’t funny and it hurt my feelings’ and he’s been very apologetic, that’s a good start, but it’s not enough if it’s something that’s been a repeated issue over the years. What I would need in your shoes would be to have a series of conversations - in couples counselling if financially possible, or another kind of neutral mediator. As well as unpacking why he says hurtful things to you and then plays them off as jokes (despite knowing you’ve found similar things hurtful in the past and you don’t have that kind of sense of humour or dynamic in your relationship) these conversations should also look at coming up with ways you can feel supported and the two of you can communicate better. I would definitely call this a red flag in the sense of the underlying contempt and lack of responsiveness to your requests for support being a relationship killer if not treated as urgent and sincerely worked on.
posted by chives at 4:11 AM on October 12, 2023
If you’ve talked to him already along the lines of ‘that wasn’t funny and it hurt my feelings’ and he’s been very apologetic, that’s a good start, but it’s not enough if it’s something that’s been a repeated issue over the years. What I would need in your shoes would be to have a series of conversations - in couples counselling if financially possible, or another kind of neutral mediator. As well as unpacking why he says hurtful things to you and then plays them off as jokes (despite knowing you’ve found similar things hurtful in the past and you don’t have that kind of sense of humour or dynamic in your relationship) these conversations should also look at coming up with ways you can feel supported and the two of you can communicate better. I would definitely call this a red flag in the sense of the underlying contempt and lack of responsiveness to your requests for support being a relationship killer if not treated as urgent and sincerely worked on.
posted by chives at 4:11 AM on October 12, 2023
For me this is edging into DTMFA territory if not already squarely in it, based on the comment AND in addition to the things he's already said. If it was a one time comment? Ok, maybe he gets a pass or warning this time. But in the context of other stuff too? Does he actually think you're incompetent?? I would consider breaking up as one option at the very least.
Given all that is happening right now, what you need is 100% unconditional support, not any kind of jokey bullshit. He may be trying to lighten the mood or whatever, but that is not what you need. Tell him that: "I don't want you to make jokes like that anymore. It hurts my feelings. I need you to believe in me."
If he gets into some weird debate about benchmarks or any caveats about needing xyz to believe in you, for me the needle would move much closer to breaking up. Now you have a values clash: you want unconditional support, he needs proof to give it. I'm armchair psychologizing now - I would bet that a caregiver needed him to prove that he was worthy of unconditional support/love. I also think that he's very insecure. He likely thinks you're amazing to the point of feeling a little intimidated, and he may feel insecure at work too. So this is his way of knocking you down a peg.
Another values clash is that he thinks he should use "jokes" to lighten the mood, but that doesn't work for you. I mean trying to use humour in a tough situation is one thing. But when you can't even pull that off properly and it's an insult? Don't do it!
As for an apology, it's not about gestures like flowers and a card. Does he know what he did wrong, and how it hurt you? Is he willing to change his behaviour? Actions matter, not words and gestures. If he's not good at saying nice things (which is BS btw), the least he could do is not say anything. Saying it was "just" a joke, or a bad joke - it grinds my gears when people use "just" in this way. Because they don't want to take responsibility and want to minimize the impact of their words. He really needs to treat you better.
posted by foxjacket at 4:13 AM on October 12, 2023
Given all that is happening right now, what you need is 100% unconditional support, not any kind of jokey bullshit. He may be trying to lighten the mood or whatever, but that is not what you need. Tell him that: "I don't want you to make jokes like that anymore. It hurts my feelings. I need you to believe in me."
If he gets into some weird debate about benchmarks or any caveats about needing xyz to believe in you, for me the needle would move much closer to breaking up. Now you have a values clash: you want unconditional support, he needs proof to give it. I'm armchair psychologizing now - I would bet that a caregiver needed him to prove that he was worthy of unconditional support/love. I also think that he's very insecure. He likely thinks you're amazing to the point of feeling a little intimidated, and he may feel insecure at work too. So this is his way of knocking you down a peg.
Another values clash is that he thinks he should use "jokes" to lighten the mood, but that doesn't work for you. I mean trying to use humour in a tough situation is one thing. But when you can't even pull that off properly and it's an insult? Don't do it!
As for an apology, it's not about gestures like flowers and a card. Does he know what he did wrong, and how it hurt you? Is he willing to change his behaviour? Actions matter, not words and gestures. If he's not good at saying nice things (which is BS btw), the least he could do is not say anything. Saying it was "just" a joke, or a bad joke - it grinds my gears when people use "just" in this way. Because they don't want to take responsibility and want to minimize the impact of their words. He really needs to treat you better.
posted by foxjacket at 4:13 AM on October 12, 2023
In response to @Jubey, I asked him to explain the joke and why he thought it would be funny if it wasn’t meant to be insulting, and he said he “thought it would be funny if your coworker said everyone is incompetent and doesn’t know what they were doing but she actually meant you.”
And I was like, I still don’t see how that’s funny. And he was kind of like I don’t know and couldn’t really elaborate more.
I think what your partner meant (and I am being very charitable with this interpretation) was that it would be patently absurd for your coworker to be talking about your incompetence to your face given you are actually the smart one at your work. The premise is - your partner thinks it is a given that you know he believes you are smart. And that seeing that absurdity might make you feel better - i.e., you might laugh at it and it might improve your mood.
But in general, it's a poorly constructed joke that was hindered by your partners' inability to read the room and lack of awareness that, in fact, he conveys sometimes that he is smarter and his workplace is smarter than you.
So in my opinion, I'd address two things with your partner - one, the subtle ways that he seems to imply you are not as smart as him, and two, what kind of support and comfort you actually want in that situation - because absurdist humor is clearly not it.
His excuse that he is not good at saying nice things is irrelevant - showing both empathy and adoration for one's loved ones is a learned skill the same as any other. It is not something you are born with - I grew up in a family that was very much the opposite of these things, but learned through my own relationships (eventually) how to be a deeply empathetic and appreciative person to those around me.
posted by openhearted at 4:56 AM on October 12, 2023
And I was like, I still don’t see how that’s funny. And he was kind of like I don’t know and couldn’t really elaborate more.
I think what your partner meant (and I am being very charitable with this interpretation) was that it would be patently absurd for your coworker to be talking about your incompetence to your face given you are actually the smart one at your work. The premise is - your partner thinks it is a given that you know he believes you are smart. And that seeing that absurdity might make you feel better - i.e., you might laugh at it and it might improve your mood.
But in general, it's a poorly constructed joke that was hindered by your partners' inability to read the room and lack of awareness that, in fact, he conveys sometimes that he is smarter and his workplace is smarter than you.
So in my opinion, I'd address two things with your partner - one, the subtle ways that he seems to imply you are not as smart as him, and two, what kind of support and comfort you actually want in that situation - because absurdist humor is clearly not it.
His excuse that he is not good at saying nice things is irrelevant - showing both empathy and adoration for one's loved ones is a learned skill the same as any other. It is not something you are born with - I grew up in a family that was very much the opposite of these things, but learned through my own relationships (eventually) how to be a deeply empathetic and appreciative person to those around me.
posted by openhearted at 4:56 AM on October 12, 2023
[One comment removed for not focusing on the OP's specific question. ]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:39 AM on October 12, 2023
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:39 AM on October 12, 2023
Just a data point, but I literally dumped someone after they made a joke about public servants being stupid/incompetent. (Not the only reason, but it was the triggering one.) Our work is often important to our identity and if someone disrespects you so much as to make that joke, it makes me wonder how they see you.
posted by Kurichina at 7:36 AM on October 12, 2023
posted by Kurichina at 7:36 AM on October 12, 2023
I think this particularly instance is a red herring - he made a sort of thoughtless cheap "joke" without considering that the timing was bad. I think it's quite possibly that he was thinking something along the lines of what openhearted wrote above (I had a similar thought), not saying it's clever, it's essentially "haha you're co-worker told you you were incompetent to your face! Awkward!" Perhaps this is because I come from a family that teases, but in the grand scheme of things I don't see this as a big deal, given he did ultimately apologize for how it made you feel.
But the bigger problems are clearly that a) you don't feel complemented enough by him and b) he seems to have a bit of an ego (re: his comments about his company), and you are worried that implies he sees himself as better than you.
I don't actually know either of you, but it seems potentially fixable, but I think you need to figure out a solution to not getting enough complements from him (maybe he can set a reminder on his phone?), and I'd make clear that you can't tolerate any suspicion that he thinks he's "better" than you - make it clear that's a dealbreaker, and be explicit about where your sensitive areas are. (I point this out because my partner and I both tease each other around areas where neither of us is totally competent but it's done lovingly - but my point is that "competence" is not a hot button issue for everyone)
posted by coffeecat at 7:55 AM on October 12, 2023
But the bigger problems are clearly that a) you don't feel complemented enough by him and b) he seems to have a bit of an ego (re: his comments about his company), and you are worried that implies he sees himself as better than you.
I don't actually know either of you, but it seems potentially fixable, but I think you need to figure out a solution to not getting enough complements from him (maybe he can set a reminder on his phone?), and I'd make clear that you can't tolerate any suspicion that he thinks he's "better" than you - make it clear that's a dealbreaker, and be explicit about where your sensitive areas are. (I point this out because my partner and I both tease each other around areas where neither of us is totally competent but it's done lovingly - but my point is that "competence" is not a hot button issue for everyone)
posted by coffeecat at 7:55 AM on October 12, 2023
As I read through your partner's comments/responses/explanations in your post and followups, the profile that comes to mind re: your partner is a person who was raised in a family that does not excel in or value emotional sensitivity, interacts at least in part through razzing on one another, and locates the relative value and worth of its members in achievement, especially intellectual achievement. Does any of that sound accurate for him? This dynamic can create adults who kind of suck at emotional care, who have to learn what appropriate joking looks like out in the world, and who have a simultaneous pride and deep insecurity about how smart they are (and might, for example, both be genuinely excited about working at a high-caliber company and using it as an external metric of their own worth).
None of that would be an excuse. You were hurt; you don't have to prove that your hurt is valid (although fwiw I think the joke was thoughtless and I'd be stung too), and his job as your partner is to learn how to validate and apologize regardless of his intent. There is definitely Him Stuff going on here. I don't think that makes him an uncaring partner or a lost cause, but if any of the above applies, it does mean that in order to be a good partner he's going to need to recognize that in some ways he is coming from a place of deficit, that having deficits is part of the human condition and doesn't mean one is bad or worthless, and that he will need to pay conscious attention to unlearning some dysfunctional behaviors and attitudes and relearning some healthier ones.
posted by wormtales at 8:01 AM on October 12, 2023
None of that would be an excuse. You were hurt; you don't have to prove that your hurt is valid (although fwiw I think the joke was thoughtless and I'd be stung too), and his job as your partner is to learn how to validate and apologize regardless of his intent. There is definitely Him Stuff going on here. I don't think that makes him an uncaring partner or a lost cause, but if any of the above applies, it does mean that in order to be a good partner he's going to need to recognize that in some ways he is coming from a place of deficit, that having deficits is part of the human condition and doesn't mean one is bad or worthless, and that he will need to pay conscious attention to unlearning some dysfunctional behaviors and attitudes and relearning some healthier ones.
posted by wormtales at 8:01 AM on October 12, 2023
I guess how I read some of this would depend in part on how long you two have been together, how well you know each other, whether either of you has been in a work situation like this before, and/or if you've been through something like this together.
The initial joke feels like a lack of tact, and maybe an attempt to take you out of the doom-and-gloom head space with a quick quip. It's possible for someone to lack tact from time to time or make jokes that don't hit the mark and still be a generally good and supportive partner. Even when I'm feeling sensitive and a joke hits the wrong way, I try to keep the perspective that at least they're trying to look at things positively and bring me out of a dark place. But it does depend on where they're coming from with it.
I have gotten comments kind of like the "I've never worked directly with someone in your field, so I don't really know what the benchmark is" one from a partner. In my case, what I've gotten has been more like, "If everything is as you say it is, then [it's dumb that colleague behaved that way/that's unfortunate they're treating you like that/that doesn't seem fair/etc.]."
I do turn that around in my head sometimes, like I want my partner to believe in me, do they believe in me? Do they doubt that I would relay things factually, or do they see me as an unreliable narrator of my own experience? But we all have our perspectives that color how we see things, and it is good to consider that things might not be as dire as I think. When I got a comment phrased that way from one partner, it was someone I hadn't been with all that long yet at that point, and I could see where it was coming from a place of their own anxiety—"Do I really know this person and their capabilities well enough to say for sure what's happening here or give advice?"
So ultimately, I decided it probably wasn't particularly meaningful that they phrased it that way, or that it was a sign they didn't believe in me in general. It was more like, well, that could have been phrased more tactfully, but it's also a very earnest way to phrase a response to me complaining about a situation. And it's true that I guess they didn't know me well enough yet to know that I'm above reproach, don'tcha know? Heh.
I do think it's fair to say here, "Hey, I was thinking about what we were talking about the other day, and I guess I'm just really feeling the stress of all of this right now. I could use help ___."
That ___ could be: I could use help destressing, so if you could try to give me more hugs when we're together, that would help. Or I could use help feeling like someone is on my side, so if you could try to be a little gentle with me right now, that would help. I'm just feeling really sensitive about everything going on at work. Or I could use help thinking through things after these really stressful days, so if you could just listen to me vent, even if you don't know my field as well, that would help.
Maybe that would give you both something concrete to follow up on, and give him something specific to try to do to help you and make amends.
posted by limeonaire at 8:59 AM on October 12, 2023
The initial joke feels like a lack of tact, and maybe an attempt to take you out of the doom-and-gloom head space with a quick quip. It's possible for someone to lack tact from time to time or make jokes that don't hit the mark and still be a generally good and supportive partner. Even when I'm feeling sensitive and a joke hits the wrong way, I try to keep the perspective that at least they're trying to look at things positively and bring me out of a dark place. But it does depend on where they're coming from with it.
I have gotten comments kind of like the "I've never worked directly with someone in your field, so I don't really know what the benchmark is" one from a partner. In my case, what I've gotten has been more like, "If everything is as you say it is, then [it's dumb that colleague behaved that way/that's unfortunate they're treating you like that/that doesn't seem fair/etc.]."
I do turn that around in my head sometimes, like I want my partner to believe in me, do they believe in me? Do they doubt that I would relay things factually, or do they see me as an unreliable narrator of my own experience? But we all have our perspectives that color how we see things, and it is good to consider that things might not be as dire as I think. When I got a comment phrased that way from one partner, it was someone I hadn't been with all that long yet at that point, and I could see where it was coming from a place of their own anxiety—"Do I really know this person and their capabilities well enough to say for sure what's happening here or give advice?"
So ultimately, I decided it probably wasn't particularly meaningful that they phrased it that way, or that it was a sign they didn't believe in me in general. It was more like, well, that could have been phrased more tactfully, but it's also a very earnest way to phrase a response to me complaining about a situation. And it's true that I guess they didn't know me well enough yet to know that I'm above reproach, don'tcha know? Heh.
I do think it's fair to say here, "Hey, I was thinking about what we were talking about the other day, and I guess I'm just really feeling the stress of all of this right now. I could use help ___."
That ___ could be: I could use help destressing, so if you could try to give me more hugs when we're together, that would help. Or I could use help feeling like someone is on my side, so if you could try to be a little gentle with me right now, that would help. I'm just feeling really sensitive about everything going on at work. Or I could use help thinking through things after these really stressful days, so if you could just listen to me vent, even if you don't know my field as well, that would help.
Maybe that would give you both something concrete to follow up on, and give him something specific to try to do to help you and make amends.
posted by limeonaire at 8:59 AM on October 12, 2023
One way to think about teasing/joking is that it's a way of signaling that the topic is not something that is a serious concern or something the joker feels you have reason to be sensitive about. You could maybe imagine teasing someone about getting a weird-looking patchy sunburn on just part of their face, but you wouldn't tease them about getting severely burned in a fire and needing skin grafts. You might tease someone about misplacing their keys but you wouldn't tease them about losing their beloved dog while out on a walk. So if your partner is basically a decent person, which it sounds like he is, the fact that he would joke about someone calling you incompetent could be seen as a strong indication that he doesn't actually think that's something you need to worry about at all. It might have seemed so obvious to him that you're not one of the incompetent ones at work that it never even occurred to him that you might think he actually believed that.
One way to think about "insulting" jokes or teasing in general is that they signal trust. They can be a way of saying, "We know, trust and like each other well enough that I can say this thing and not be afraid of your reaction and you can hear it without thinking I actually mean anything bad." Of course, they can also be a way of signaling contempt, but I don't see any reason to assume that's the case here.
posted by Redstart at 9:28 AM on October 12, 2023
One way to think about "insulting" jokes or teasing in general is that they signal trust. They can be a way of saying, "We know, trust and like each other well enough that I can say this thing and not be afraid of your reaction and you can hear it without thinking I actually mean anything bad." Of course, they can also be a way of signaling contempt, but I don't see any reason to assume that's the case here.
posted by Redstart at 9:28 AM on October 12, 2023
Your partner sounds like a jerk. As others have said, making mean little comments may be something he grew up with and something he can change if he’s willing to try. The emphasis is that willingness to be self-aware and try to be kinder. I’m sure he’s lovely in many other ways so this really could be fixed.
However, for me a partner who is unkind in this way, even occasionally, is not someone I would want to be with. I have learned to listen for this stuff early on — and that superiority you mention him discussing as well — and to leave. I agree that we all can say mean things accidentally but it’s different. A lot of men — or women too — can neg in dating and in life. I want a partner and friends who are on my team and believe in me! There’s a lot I can tolerate and a lot they can tolerate from me, of course! But kindness and support is a non-negotiable/dealbreaker for me. Others may be more comfortable with a spot of nastiness. I can be yucky but I’m never cruel or thoughtless, and I know many others also strive for this. Sometimes we don’t realize that kindness is possible when we grow up surrounded by small cruelties, intentional or not.
Furthermore, as a teacher, I would never say something like that to my students. Sure, I may talk about effort or behavior and be honest in my feedback but mean? No way. I’d be a shitty teacher. Also our goal is learning and growth because no one is perfect. I agree that people in life can be incompetent but that is not a label I’d use for any of my students. Sometimes putting the comment in a different context can help us judge its tone.
posted by smorgasbord at 9:29 AM on October 12, 2023
However, for me a partner who is unkind in this way, even occasionally, is not someone I would want to be with. I have learned to listen for this stuff early on — and that superiority you mention him discussing as well — and to leave. I agree that we all can say mean things accidentally but it’s different. A lot of men — or women too — can neg in dating and in life. I want a partner and friends who are on my team and believe in me! There’s a lot I can tolerate and a lot they can tolerate from me, of course! But kindness and support is a non-negotiable/dealbreaker for me. Others may be more comfortable with a spot of nastiness. I can be yucky but I’m never cruel or thoughtless, and I know many others also strive for this. Sometimes we don’t realize that kindness is possible when we grow up surrounded by small cruelties, intentional or not.
Furthermore, as a teacher, I would never say something like that to my students. Sure, I may talk about effort or behavior and be honest in my feedback but mean? No way. I’d be a shitty teacher. Also our goal is learning and growth because no one is perfect. I agree that people in life can be incompetent but that is not a label I’d use for any of my students. Sometimes putting the comment in a different context can help us judge its tone.
posted by smorgasbord at 9:29 AM on October 12, 2023
Does your partner have a group of male friends who tease and raz each other a lot? That's a pretty common way for boys/men to have learned to interact with other boys/men: by one-upping and putting down. It's not super emotionally healthy and it really really dampens opportunity for trust and vulnerability, but lots of people don't even realize they do it. If your partner is enmeshed in that way of being, or grew up in a household with a lot of mean teasing, he might really need to unlearn this behavior pattern and response.
I can both believe this was deeply hurtful to you and that he doesn't doubt your competence. Could this reflect his own insecurities? I know I think stupid things I don't say all the time. But sometimes I do say those stupid things. I said out loud two pretty awful things: I questioned a friend's ability to know that something he had was actually broken in the way he thought it was; and I suggested another friend's busy schedule was to avoid dealing with a certain problem. And you know what? I was shocked when I said those things out loud, and especially about the friend with the problem, because I actually think my friend is managing that situation well. But you know what? I spent some time thinking about where these things came from, and I think I was repeating criticisms levied at me and maybe reflect some of my insecurities or ways others have doubted me.
I don't think you're overreacting. I don't know if you're in DTMFA territory. But I think it might be worth some bigger conversations with your partner about where this kind of reaction comes from and if he might work to mitigate it. A few sessions of couples therapy might help. If there's a way you can approach this with curiosity, that might be a good way. But it sounds like you're pretty raw at work, too, which makes it all harder. You could give your partner some prompts when you share work stuff. "Hey, I felt validated when" or "I could use some reassurance about..." and so on.
posted by bluedaisy at 10:13 AM on October 12, 2023
I can both believe this was deeply hurtful to you and that he doesn't doubt your competence. Could this reflect his own insecurities? I know I think stupid things I don't say all the time. But sometimes I do say those stupid things. I said out loud two pretty awful things: I questioned a friend's ability to know that something he had was actually broken in the way he thought it was; and I suggested another friend's busy schedule was to avoid dealing with a certain problem. And you know what? I was shocked when I said those things out loud, and especially about the friend with the problem, because I actually think my friend is managing that situation well. But you know what? I spent some time thinking about where these things came from, and I think I was repeating criticisms levied at me and maybe reflect some of my insecurities or ways others have doubted me.
I don't think you're overreacting. I don't know if you're in DTMFA territory. But I think it might be worth some bigger conversations with your partner about where this kind of reaction comes from and if he might work to mitigate it. A few sessions of couples therapy might help. If there's a way you can approach this with curiosity, that might be a good way. But it sounds like you're pretty raw at work, too, which makes it all harder. You could give your partner some prompts when you share work stuff. "Hey, I felt validated when" or "I could use some reassurance about..." and so on.
posted by bluedaisy at 10:13 AM on October 12, 2023
One thing that changed my behavior was thinking about this research from the Gottman Institute - where they found they could distinguish between couples who would stay together long term vs those that eventually broke up, and the difference was the long-lived couples have 5 positive interactions for every negative interaction.
OK, think about that. 5:1. It can be hard for some people to even get 1:1 or 2:1. Now you are shooting for 5:1.
It basically means, you better be thinking about positive things to say to and about your partner all day every day. Then when actual important issue comes up you can deal with that and that is your negative issue. But you don't have any room in there for teasing, acting like an asshole all day like because it's fun, and all that kind of thing.
Anyway you might have this discussion with your partner - not specifically about this one thing, but rather: Is he willing to go to the place where literally 80-90% of ALL your interactions are positive, and the negative ones are rare and reserved for actual important areas of conflict or differences and not just random bullshit or teasing.
For one thing, this gives a specific positive goal you can work on as a team, rather than just focusing on one single negative interaction - as bad as that might be at the moment. Also could be a goal or focus of couples counseling if anyone is interested in pursuing that.
Finally, "insulting little jokes" are a ways off the radar screen of the positive/negative interaction scenario. They are more into the area of contempt, which is one of the Four Horsemen of relationships for very good reason.
If you're feeling actual contempt, even just several times per year, that is why you are feeling uncertain about the relationship. Those types of interactions need to be right at 0%, just just 5% or 10% - if you (and your partner) are interested in building a relationship that lasts.
posted by flug at 11:42 AM on October 12, 2023
OK, think about that. 5:1. It can be hard for some people to even get 1:1 or 2:1. Now you are shooting for 5:1.
It basically means, you better be thinking about positive things to say to and about your partner all day every day. Then when actual important issue comes up you can deal with that and that is your negative issue. But you don't have any room in there for teasing, acting like an asshole all day like because it's fun, and all that kind of thing.
Anyway you might have this discussion with your partner - not specifically about this one thing, but rather: Is he willing to go to the place where literally 80-90% of ALL your interactions are positive, and the negative ones are rare and reserved for actual important areas of conflict or differences and not just random bullshit or teasing.
For one thing, this gives a specific positive goal you can work on as a team, rather than just focusing on one single negative interaction - as bad as that might be at the moment. Also could be a goal or focus of couples counseling if anyone is interested in pursuing that.
Finally, "insulting little jokes" are a ways off the radar screen of the positive/negative interaction scenario. They are more into the area of contempt, which is one of the Four Horsemen of relationships for very good reason.
If you're feeling actual contempt, even just several times per year, that is why you are feeling uncertain about the relationship. Those types of interactions need to be right at 0%, just just 5% or 10% - if you (and your partner) are interested in building a relationship that lasts.
posted by flug at 11:42 AM on October 12, 2023
I think to get through the immediate high-level stress in your life, it is fair to ask for a "no jokes about my work" policy, as they're just very unlikely to succeed.
I think you'd be better off catching the "me and my job are very superior" moments IN the moment and just say, okay, I'm sure you're very smart but are you hearing what you're saying and how right now?
It may be worth sharing with him Mefi's Own John Scalzi's "Failure Mode of Clever" (spoiler: is "asshole") essay. It did a lot to change my childhood-installed sarcasm wiring so I did a lot more risk-assessment before opening my mouth. It made me kinder.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:01 PM on October 12, 2023
I think you'd be better off catching the "me and my job are very superior" moments IN the moment and just say, okay, I'm sure you're very smart but are you hearing what you're saying and how right now?
It may be worth sharing with him Mefi's Own John Scalzi's "Failure Mode of Clever" (spoiler: is "asshole") essay. It did a lot to change my childhood-installed sarcasm wiring so I did a lot more risk-assessment before opening my mouth. It made me kinder.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:01 PM on October 12, 2023
I can actually see the joke your partner was aiming at and utterly failing to strike; something along the lines of "sounds like my girl!" or such where you obviously perceive the gap between yourself and your shitty coworkers. But, to be the kind of person I think your partner is trying to be (someone who deftly uses jokes and humor to communicate positively, in lieu of sincere/straightforward kindness and vulnerability) requires just an incredible lot of skill, and your partner ain't got it. The failure mode of clever is asshole. [LOL on preview, jinx Lyn Never]
I do know people who walk this line very well! It's obvious to the listener that when they refer to their partner as "this doofus" or such that they mean "this incredible person I'm blessed to be with." They would only ever make a joke about competence in an arena where the person's skill is obvious, acknowledged, and admired.
But all of this involves being an adept reader of rooms, knowing intimately what a person might be truly insecure or worried about vs what they are confident in, and phrasing things just right. Your partner would be better served to just learn how to be straightforward and kind.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:06 PM on October 12, 2023
I do know people who walk this line very well! It's obvious to the listener that when they refer to their partner as "this doofus" or such that they mean "this incredible person I'm blessed to be with." They would only ever make a joke about competence in an arena where the person's skill is obvious, acknowledged, and admired.
But all of this involves being an adept reader of rooms, knowing intimately what a person might be truly insecure or worried about vs what they are confident in, and phrasing things just right. Your partner would be better served to just learn how to be straightforward and kind.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:06 PM on October 12, 2023
It takes about three comments of this sort in a relationship to make me stop wanting to have a relationship with them.
Some people come from a micro culture where this kind of humour is fun for them and the people they do it to - kind of like having a running rap battle with someone, where you absolutely grin with delight when they make a zinger. I was sincerely impressed when I realised this, and watched them in action.
At the same time, it's not for me and I can't keep liking someone who does this to me. It's funny what I can put up with, but someone verbally tearing me down isn't one of them.
It's possible your partner made a mistake and replied that way reflexively because he had been watching unfunny sit coms, or had been spending time in a locker room. I'd just quietly tell him that you'll assume if he continues doing that he wants to break up. If you feel the way I do, you can just tell him that you can't love anyone who would treat you that way.
You're not over reacting if it's your red line. Relationships are voluntary. You get to draw your red line where ever you want and nobody gets to tell you that you are too sensitive.
Best not to be dramatic about it, and make a big deal about it, and better not to be passive aggressive. It would be passive aggressive to fail to tell him he's crossing a line, and punish him for not reading your mind, or knowing how important it is. "Don't do that, if you love me." is another way you can phrase it without giving ultimations that mention breaking up.
posted by Jane the Brown at 1:33 PM on October 12, 2023
Some people come from a micro culture where this kind of humour is fun for them and the people they do it to - kind of like having a running rap battle with someone, where you absolutely grin with delight when they make a zinger. I was sincerely impressed when I realised this, and watched them in action.
At the same time, it's not for me and I can't keep liking someone who does this to me. It's funny what I can put up with, but someone verbally tearing me down isn't one of them.
It's possible your partner made a mistake and replied that way reflexively because he had been watching unfunny sit coms, or had been spending time in a locker room. I'd just quietly tell him that you'll assume if he continues doing that he wants to break up. If you feel the way I do, you can just tell him that you can't love anyone who would treat you that way.
You're not over reacting if it's your red line. Relationships are voluntary. You get to draw your red line where ever you want and nobody gets to tell you that you are too sensitive.
Best not to be dramatic about it, and make a big deal about it, and better not to be passive aggressive. It would be passive aggressive to fail to tell him he's crossing a line, and punish him for not reading your mind, or knowing how important it is. "Don't do that, if you love me." is another way you can phrase it without giving ultimations that mention breaking up.
posted by Jane the Brown at 1:33 PM on October 12, 2023
You're not overreacting, and a very good relationship will not involve you landing in a self-doubting situation, with regard to your loved one, on a routine basis.
posted by panhopticon at 5:08 PM on October 12, 2023
posted by panhopticon at 5:08 PM on October 12, 2023
His comment seems to me like a knee jerk reaction by someone who is deeply uncomfortable with engaging on an emotional level, hence they make flippant comments to deflect/ distract from the pain expressed by the other person.
It’s hard to judge the health of your relationship from one incident, but does he show his support for you in other ways? Have you explicitly told him how stressful and toxic the whole situation at work is and if so, was he capable of showing empathy? Does he genuinely listen when you speak about things that bother you without getting defensive?
Humor can be great but dealing with someone whose only emotional toolkit and coping mechanisms are (inappropriate) jokes and sarcasm can be exhausting and feel like death by a thousand cuts.
posted by pandanpanda at 6:20 PM on October 12, 2023
It’s hard to judge the health of your relationship from one incident, but does he show his support for you in other ways? Have you explicitly told him how stressful and toxic the whole situation at work is and if so, was he capable of showing empathy? Does he genuinely listen when you speak about things that bother you without getting defensive?
Humor can be great but dealing with someone whose only emotional toolkit and coping mechanisms are (inappropriate) jokes and sarcasm can be exhausting and feel like death by a thousand cuts.
posted by pandanpanda at 6:20 PM on October 12, 2023
Does your partner by any chance have a problem with your job, or some aspect of it? My ex had a problem with how much time I spent on my job, and almost all their passive-aggressive digs were somehow related to that. It could be as benign as, it stresses your partner out hearing about your job but he doesn't want to say so directly. Not saying you need to stop talking about it by the way, rather he needs to find a better approach than making annoying "jokes." I do suspect there is some kind of issue he needs to be more up front with you about.
posted by BibiRose at 7:37 AM on October 13, 2023
posted by BibiRose at 7:37 AM on October 13, 2023
Thanks all for your replies! It helped to read all these varied responses and think about different perspectives. The general takeaway I arrived at from the combined responses was that this isn't an immediate "DTMF" situation but also not a "not a big deal at all" and falls more around "pretty concerning and needs to be resolved."
I've had a sit-down talk with my partner, he was very remorseful and sorry that he hurt me. Since he had said he wanted to fix this, I asked him to come up with some concrete ways on his own before the talk (so I'm not just doing all the work asking people online, finding resources/articles for him/emotional labor). He did identify that he needs to actively work on having better empathy and giving unconditional support, and to think before he talks.
I also brought up to him about lack of respect/contempt being a relationship killer, sent him the "Failure of Clever" article, and talked to him about reflecting on how his upbringing or habits led to him having his identity revolve around work and achievements. A few of your hypothetical psych profiling were actually really accurate! "re: your partner is a person who was raised in a family that does not excel in or value emotional sensitivity...and locates the relative value and worth of its members in achievement, especially intellectual achievement...create adults who kind of suck at emotional care" + "a caregiver needed him to prove that he was worthy of unconditional support/love... I also think that he's very insecure." This was spot on from what I know about his family. Though I have been reminding myself that this explains things but doesn't excuse bad behavior.
One thing I haven't mentioned is he has mentioned wondering if he's on the spectrum a little or has Aspergers. But I don't know if or how that would change anything. Either way, I guess the path forward now is that we've talked and he has some resources/direction at hand, and we'll see if there's any improvement within a reasonable time frame (I know it takes time for people to change habits, but there should also be a limit).
posted by bellalia at 11:42 AM on October 16, 2023
I've had a sit-down talk with my partner, he was very remorseful and sorry that he hurt me. Since he had said he wanted to fix this, I asked him to come up with some concrete ways on his own before the talk (so I'm not just doing all the work asking people online, finding resources/articles for him/emotional labor). He did identify that he needs to actively work on having better empathy and giving unconditional support, and to think before he talks.
I also brought up to him about lack of respect/contempt being a relationship killer, sent him the "Failure of Clever" article, and talked to him about reflecting on how his upbringing or habits led to him having his identity revolve around work and achievements. A few of your hypothetical psych profiling were actually really accurate! "re: your partner is a person who was raised in a family that does not excel in or value emotional sensitivity...and locates the relative value and worth of its members in achievement, especially intellectual achievement...create adults who kind of suck at emotional care" + "a caregiver needed him to prove that he was worthy of unconditional support/love... I also think that he's very insecure." This was spot on from what I know about his family. Though I have been reminding myself that this explains things but doesn't excuse bad behavior.
One thing I haven't mentioned is he has mentioned wondering if he's on the spectrum a little or has Aspergers. But I don't know if or how that would change anything. Either way, I guess the path forward now is that we've talked and he has some resources/direction at hand, and we'll see if there's any improvement within a reasonable time frame (I know it takes time for people to change habits, but there should also be a limit).
posted by bellalia at 11:42 AM on October 16, 2023
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by praemunire at 8:42 PM on October 11, 2023