I have made a mess and I don't know how to get out of it
September 2, 2023 10:03 AM Subscribe
My spouse (they/them) and I have been separated for the last 3 months, and whilst we’ve been getting on better since I moved out, I know that realistically we’re probably not going to be able to mend things. And yet I feel completely unable to commit to the decision.
Yes, me again. Sorry.
See my recent question history for more details. It’s been a rollercoaster. I finally moved out after going on a business trip — before that trip my spouse had interrogated me every night for five nights, usually between 12pm and 2pm, about where I was going, who I was going with, and whether I was going to cheat on them (sometimes asking *why* I was going to cheat). My therapist has told me that this was abuse — for some reason I cannot accept this categorisation.
On that trip I felt so light and free and I realised that it was time for me to move out, that I couldn’t keep going through this. I was able to take up a friend's offer to housesit whilst they were away for 6 months, and was able to bring mine and my spouse's pets with me. I realise now that my spouse would likely have been so much better off if I had just told them I wanted a divorce, but I didn't have the strength to do that and I wasn't sure I wanted to, so instead I just moved out.
My spouse immediately agreed to start therapy and has had 6 sessions of therapy so far — 3 with one therapist and 2 with another. We’ve seen a couples therapist a few times, although those sessions have ended up being more about handing my spouse’s anxiety than addressing how it’s affected us as a couple.
My spouse insists that they’re doing better, that their anxiety is more under control, and that the behaviour that caused me to leave won’t reoccur.
Here's the problem: my spouse really wants me to move back, and I'm feeling really torn about the idea. On the one hand, I *do* love my spouse. There's no doubt about that — even my therapist has made this observation. On the other hand… I'm happier, by and large, not living with them. When we're together and we kiss I feel really distant. I find myself looking forward to the end of the night, to escaping to my own space. And I feel awful about that.
We see each other several times a week for various reasons (going No Contact just isn't an option, though I know some folk might suggest it). And when we're getting along together it feels, well, good. But I know how much my spouse is hurting at the fact that I'm not living at home.
Our therapist has suggested that we take some time away together, and we'd tentatively agreed to do so next week, but I still don't feel 100% comfy about coming home and my spouse has been really clear that they don't feel we can go away together if I'm not already living at home before then.
My spouse tells me that they're afraid that if I do come home I'm just going to leave "if [they] do anything wrong", and that they need to know that I definitely won't. On the other hand, I need to feel safe in the knowledge that they really have made progress.
Truth is that I feel very conflicted. I really want to believe that things have changed, but I find myself waiting for the old behaviour to show up again. And I find myself doubting myself, wondering if little things my spouse does — like checking in with me after I've had a therapy session to see if I've decided to leave for good — are the old behaviour showing up and I'm just not willing to see it.
My therapist and those friends who know about the situation have told me that I seem happier, and day to day I mostly am, but this indecision is really starting to weigh on me. I feel like an awful human being to not be able to commit to my spouse, and I also feel awful for not being strong enough to tell them that I can't come back, or to decide that it really is over between us.
My therapist tells me that it takes strength to stay in an uncomfortable situation but I just feel like a complete asshole, hurting everyone because I can't make a decision. I haven't told my family yet about the situation because I can't face their disappointment (it was bad enough when my first marriage ended, and that ended with an actual physical altercation).
This last week it's all been coming on top of me and I've found myself suffering from idle intrusive thoughts about how nice it would be to just stop being alive, so that I didn't have to face this anymore. I have no actual desire to die, but it has been scaring me, and a couple of times I've been a hair's breadth from calling the Samaritans because I just wanted the thoughts to stop.
I've told my therapist about this and I know that she is there if I need her, but I don't feel like I can tell anyone else.
How to I start to untangle myself from this mess? My spouse deserves to be happy. I deserve to be happy. I need to know that going back to my spouse would be safe, and they need to know I'm not going to — to quote them — "throw the past in their face" if we have an argument (and because therapy has uncovered a lot of old pain and resentments, I don't know how to address those things without my spouse feeling like I'm attacking them with the past).
I feel more lost than I think I ever have, and I don't think I realised just how lost I was feeling until I started typing this question out.
Yes, me again. Sorry.
See my recent question history for more details. It’s been a rollercoaster. I finally moved out after going on a business trip — before that trip my spouse had interrogated me every night for five nights, usually between 12pm and 2pm, about where I was going, who I was going with, and whether I was going to cheat on them (sometimes asking *why* I was going to cheat). My therapist has told me that this was abuse — for some reason I cannot accept this categorisation.
On that trip I felt so light and free and I realised that it was time for me to move out, that I couldn’t keep going through this. I was able to take up a friend's offer to housesit whilst they were away for 6 months, and was able to bring mine and my spouse's pets with me. I realise now that my spouse would likely have been so much better off if I had just told them I wanted a divorce, but I didn't have the strength to do that and I wasn't sure I wanted to, so instead I just moved out.
My spouse immediately agreed to start therapy and has had 6 sessions of therapy so far — 3 with one therapist and 2 with another. We’ve seen a couples therapist a few times, although those sessions have ended up being more about handing my spouse’s anxiety than addressing how it’s affected us as a couple.
My spouse insists that they’re doing better, that their anxiety is more under control, and that the behaviour that caused me to leave won’t reoccur.
Here's the problem: my spouse really wants me to move back, and I'm feeling really torn about the idea. On the one hand, I *do* love my spouse. There's no doubt about that — even my therapist has made this observation. On the other hand… I'm happier, by and large, not living with them. When we're together and we kiss I feel really distant. I find myself looking forward to the end of the night, to escaping to my own space. And I feel awful about that.
We see each other several times a week for various reasons (going No Contact just isn't an option, though I know some folk might suggest it). And when we're getting along together it feels, well, good. But I know how much my spouse is hurting at the fact that I'm not living at home.
Our therapist has suggested that we take some time away together, and we'd tentatively agreed to do so next week, but I still don't feel 100% comfy about coming home and my spouse has been really clear that they don't feel we can go away together if I'm not already living at home before then.
My spouse tells me that they're afraid that if I do come home I'm just going to leave "if [they] do anything wrong", and that they need to know that I definitely won't. On the other hand, I need to feel safe in the knowledge that they really have made progress.
Truth is that I feel very conflicted. I really want to believe that things have changed, but I find myself waiting for the old behaviour to show up again. And I find myself doubting myself, wondering if little things my spouse does — like checking in with me after I've had a therapy session to see if I've decided to leave for good — are the old behaviour showing up and I'm just not willing to see it.
My therapist and those friends who know about the situation have told me that I seem happier, and day to day I mostly am, but this indecision is really starting to weigh on me. I feel like an awful human being to not be able to commit to my spouse, and I also feel awful for not being strong enough to tell them that I can't come back, or to decide that it really is over between us.
My therapist tells me that it takes strength to stay in an uncomfortable situation but I just feel like a complete asshole, hurting everyone because I can't make a decision. I haven't told my family yet about the situation because I can't face their disappointment (it was bad enough when my first marriage ended, and that ended with an actual physical altercation).
This last week it's all been coming on top of me and I've found myself suffering from idle intrusive thoughts about how nice it would be to just stop being alive, so that I didn't have to face this anymore. I have no actual desire to die, but it has been scaring me, and a couple of times I've been a hair's breadth from calling the Samaritans because I just wanted the thoughts to stop.
I've told my therapist about this and I know that she is there if I need her, but I don't feel like I can tell anyone else.
How to I start to untangle myself from this mess? My spouse deserves to be happy. I deserve to be happy. I need to know that going back to my spouse would be safe, and they need to know I'm not going to — to quote them — "throw the past in their face" if we have an argument (and because therapy has uncovered a lot of old pain and resentments, I don't know how to address those things without my spouse feeling like I'm attacking them with the past).
I feel more lost than I think I ever have, and I don't think I realised just how lost I was feeling until I started typing this question out.
Can I suggest that at the moment you're not actually separated though you are living separately? You each seem all up in each other's business. The point of separation isn't really to see if you can continue to make each other miserable remotely, it's to take an actual break from thinking about/dealing with this person every waking moment. Maybe take three months of zero contact and see how you feel then. I bet you feel a thousand times better without shovels full of guilt and grief being dumped on you on a daily, if not hourly, basis.
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:23 AM on September 2, 2023 [36 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 10:23 AM on September 2, 2023 [36 favorites]
I can see how much you care about your spouse and that is so laudable BUT they are throwing up more red flags than a hurricane. At a bare minimum, they are still trying to manipulate you and your actions not really caring what YOU want. I get the distinct impression that they are solely focused on themselves and what they want. Which, on the one hand I get but in a relationship, there are two people, not one.
You have had the incredible fortune to luck into a house sitting situation for 6 months which to me seems like a great amount of time to BE APART and really figure out what you want. Also, if you feel guilty, why not throw your friend under the bus with a little white lie that your friend is not comfortable having their house uninhabited for 6 months and there is no one else who can help out so gosh darn you have to stay there?
Please, please, please accept this incredible opportunity to distance yourself and really get centered because I can almost guarantee that if you move back in now it will go back to the way it was.
posted by tafetta, darling! at 10:24 AM on September 2, 2023 [31 favorites]
You have had the incredible fortune to luck into a house sitting situation for 6 months which to me seems like a great amount of time to BE APART and really figure out what you want. Also, if you feel guilty, why not throw your friend under the bus with a little white lie that your friend is not comfortable having their house uninhabited for 6 months and there is no one else who can help out so gosh darn you have to stay there?
Please, please, please accept this incredible opportunity to distance yourself and really get centered because I can almost guarantee that if you move back in now it will go back to the way it was.
posted by tafetta, darling! at 10:24 AM on September 2, 2023 [31 favorites]
Oof: "My spouse tells me that they're afraid that if I do come home I'm just going to leave 'if [they] do anything wrong', and that they need to know that I definitely won't."
That's just, that's just not something anyone can or should promise. It's not a reasonable thing for your spouse to ask of you. Although I'm not up on all the "old behaviors" they're trying to address in therapy, making this demand feels like...maybe that's the kind of behavior you need to know is behind them if you are going to feel safe living with them again? So I guess all I can say is if you're wondering if the "old behaviors" are popping up, I suspect the answer is yes, at least to some extent.
I'm sorry this is such a tense and unhappy time, and I hope you can find a path forward that leads you somewhere safe and restful where you have some peace.
posted by Suedeltica at 10:36 AM on September 2, 2023 [22 favorites]
That's just, that's just not something anyone can or should promise. It's not a reasonable thing for your spouse to ask of you. Although I'm not up on all the "old behaviors" they're trying to address in therapy, making this demand feels like...maybe that's the kind of behavior you need to know is behind them if you are going to feel safe living with them again? So I guess all I can say is if you're wondering if the "old behaviors" are popping up, I suspect the answer is yes, at least to some extent.
I'm sorry this is such a tense and unhappy time, and I hope you can find a path forward that leads you somewhere safe and restful where you have some peace.
posted by Suedeltica at 10:36 AM on September 2, 2023 [22 favorites]
As a mental/emotional exercise, try thinking of them as your ex-spouse. Just a slight shift in thought.
Do not go away with them. Instead, let them know you won't be moving back in, and that you want to go ahead with a divorce.
You're right that it will be hard to let them know you won't be moving back. You've spent a lot of energy in avoiding confrontation, avoiding crossing your spouse or offending them. Telling them you want a divorce goes against that. But you're right, they have to know.
Have the difficult conversation. If you know your spouse's therapy schedule, maybe contact them the day before an appointment so they have that safety net.
It's got to be done. It will be hard. But you already know you're doing better away from your spouse, so just focus on the good things that lie on the other side of this.
posted by Pallas Athena at 10:56 AM on September 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
Do not go away with them. Instead, let them know you won't be moving back in, and that you want to go ahead with a divorce.
You're right that it will be hard to let them know you won't be moving back. You've spent a lot of energy in avoiding confrontation, avoiding crossing your spouse or offending them. Telling them you want a divorce goes against that. But you're right, they have to know.
Have the difficult conversation. If you know your spouse's therapy schedule, maybe contact them the day before an appointment so they have that safety net.
It's got to be done. It will be hard. But you already know you're doing better away from your spouse, so just focus on the good things that lie on the other side of this.
posted by Pallas Athena at 10:56 AM on September 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
If an anecdote will help, I was married to someone who I realize now was emotionally abusive (a term used by my current therapist). We did separate at one point before we were married, I moved out and missed him, we got back together and got married a year later.
Then a few years into the marriage, there was most of a year where we both knew things were falling apart and we tried to make it work. I did love him but I was so unhappy with him, he was really mean to me and made me feel awful. He also had a temper.
I went on a business trip and I had the exact same experience as you - I felt so free! I was really in my element, hanging out with friends, really engaged in the presentations, having so much fun at the parties. I came home and the next day told my husband that I wanted a divorce. That was 4 years ago and I have not looked back.
posted by radioamy at 11:00 AM on September 2, 2023 [21 favorites]
Then a few years into the marriage, there was most of a year where we both knew things were falling apart and we tried to make it work. I did love him but I was so unhappy with him, he was really mean to me and made me feel awful. He also had a temper.
I went on a business trip and I had the exact same experience as you - I felt so free! I was really in my element, hanging out with friends, really engaged in the presentations, having so much fun at the parties. I came home and the next day told my husband that I wanted a divorce. That was 4 years ago and I have not looked back.
posted by radioamy at 11:00 AM on September 2, 2023 [21 favorites]
You can be with someone, committed to them, AND not living together. I’ve done it and really enjoyed it and so did my partner. While we’re living together now and also enjoying that, living apart again someday is also on the table.
The behaviour you describe in your partner would have me running for the hills, or at least insisting on living separately. Given their controlling and obsessive behaviour, it sounds like they wouldn’t be able to accept living separately tho.
You say you want both of you to be happy. Your partner isn’t happy with you now and hasn’t been for a long long time. Living separately or separating gives you both a chance to grieve your relationship and move in new directions. You and your spouse are likely to be much happier after a few years of not being together.
posted by congen at 11:01 AM on September 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
The behaviour you describe in your partner would have me running for the hills, or at least insisting on living separately. Given their controlling and obsessive behaviour, it sounds like they wouldn’t be able to accept living separately tho.
You say you want both of you to be happy. Your partner isn’t happy with you now and hasn’t been for a long long time. Living separately or separating gives you both a chance to grieve your relationship and move in new directions. You and your spouse are likely to be much happier after a few years of not being together.
posted by congen at 11:01 AM on September 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
They want a guarantee that you won't leave even if they cross a line.
What if you gave yourself breathing space instead of falling into old tracks again?
posted by M. at 11:09 AM on September 2, 2023 [22 favorites]
What if you gave yourself breathing space instead of falling into old tracks again?
posted by M. at 11:09 AM on September 2, 2023 [22 favorites]
I think it's important that it took you moving out for them to be willing to engage with therapy. If you move back in, what's their incentive to continue doing that/getting better/not engaging in the behaviors that are making you unhappy?
I'm not sure if you've already been linked to issendai's writeup of sick systems (or, how to keep someone with you forever). Just in case, here it is: https://www.issendai.com/psychology/sick-systems.html.
posted by HtotheH at 11:23 AM on September 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'm not sure if you've already been linked to issendai's writeup of sick systems (or, how to keep someone with you forever). Just in case, here it is: https://www.issendai.com/psychology/sick-systems.html.
posted by HtotheH at 11:23 AM on September 2, 2023 [9 favorites]
I don't know your Ask history, friend, but as a divorced (and happily remarried) person, I read this question and immediately thought that you need to divorce your spouse. That was also before I got to the part about ideation.
You are worth the pain it will cost you to leave your spouse. Please care for yourself, first and foremost by severing your relationship legally. Some people you cannot please and you shouldn't try. The person you have to live with is you, so in this matter you need to do what you can live with.
Please take care of yourself, friend. Even a civil divorce with no property is tough, but it does get better. I promise.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 11:23 AM on September 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
You are worth the pain it will cost you to leave your spouse. Please care for yourself, first and foremost by severing your relationship legally. Some people you cannot please and you shouldn't try. The person you have to live with is you, so in this matter you need to do what you can live with.
Please take care of yourself, friend. Even a civil divorce with no property is tough, but it does get better. I promise.
posted by gentlyepigrams at 11:23 AM on September 2, 2023 [11 favorites]
Your spouse is being exactly as controlling as they always have, and y'all have no damn business being in couples counseling together. "If they do something wrong," my ass. What a neat little way of, once again, making literally everything your fault and giving you no way to win.
posted by restless_nomad at 11:24 AM on September 2, 2023 [45 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 11:24 AM on September 2, 2023 [45 favorites]
Three months and six therapy sessions is not meaningful change. I know it probably feels like meaningful change to them and maybe even to you, but in your shoes I would want to see at *least* six months of serious changes before even opening up the question of maybe moving back at some point. And that would be if you were dying to move back. Which you are not and, from your telling, shouldn’t be.
I really think you should move ahead with a divorce, but if you aren’t there yet, then you’re not. But you should live apart for now, because you are happier that way, and cannot and should not agree to the terms under which your partner is asking you to move back. If that means no going away together, that’s fine.
posted by Stacey at 11:28 AM on September 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
I really think you should move ahead with a divorce, but if you aren’t there yet, then you’re not. But you should live apart for now, because you are happier that way, and cannot and should not agree to the terms under which your partner is asking you to move back. If that means no going away together, that’s fine.
posted by Stacey at 11:28 AM on September 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
I really want to believe that things have changed, but I find myself waiting for the old behaviour to show up again.
A handful or two of therapy sessions is barely enough for run-of-the-mill mental health issues, let alone the type of behavior you described in previous asks.
- My spouse insists that they’re doing better, that their anxiety is more under control, and that the behaviour that caused me to leave won’t reoccur.
- my spouse really wants me to move back
- I know how much my spouse is hurting at the fact that I'm not living at home.
- my spouse has been really clear that they don't feel we can go away together if I'm not already living at home before then.
- My spouse tells me that they're afraid that if I do come home I'm just going to leave "if [they] do anything wrong", and that they need to know that I definitely won't.
- checking in with me after I've had a therapy session to see if I've decided to leave for good
How many years in your life have been spent revolving very tightly around your spouse's extreme need for control? How many years have you spent feeling guilty about not supporting them enough, in a heavily unequal and extremely controlling relationship?
You're both still in your ruts. You've grown so used to this treatment it's probably going to take a long time, and hopefully some better relationships, to recalibrate your sense of what happy relationships can look like.
It's probably going to take your spouse years. If they ever manage it. If they ever do, one sign will be that they're able to deal with fundamental uncertainty and lack of control. The biggest sign will be that they're able to let go.
posted by trig at 11:34 AM on September 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
A handful or two of therapy sessions is barely enough for run-of-the-mill mental health issues, let alone the type of behavior you described in previous asks.
- My spouse insists that they’re doing better, that their anxiety is more under control, and that the behaviour that caused me to leave won’t reoccur.
- my spouse really wants me to move back
- I know how much my spouse is hurting at the fact that I'm not living at home.
- my spouse has been really clear that they don't feel we can go away together if I'm not already living at home before then.
- My spouse tells me that they're afraid that if I do come home I'm just going to leave "if [they] do anything wrong", and that they need to know that I definitely won't.
- checking in with me after I've had a therapy session to see if I've decided to leave for good
How many years in your life have been spent revolving very tightly around your spouse's extreme need for control? How many years have you spent feeling guilty about not supporting them enough, in a heavily unequal and extremely controlling relationship?
You're both still in your ruts. You've grown so used to this treatment it's probably going to take a long time, and hopefully some better relationships, to recalibrate your sense of what happy relationships can look like.
It's probably going to take your spouse years. If they ever manage it. If they ever do, one sign will be that they're able to deal with fundamental uncertainty and lack of control. The biggest sign will be that they're able to let go.
posted by trig at 11:34 AM on September 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
Anectodally, the one way a relative of mine has been finally able to detangle from a controlling relationship like this - after decades and so many promises it would get better - was by plain ceasing all physical and verbal contact. Written or nothing. And in her responses, she addressed only the practical, who pays what bills, where the keys are etc.
And if they want a promise you won't leave no matter what, there will be exactly nothing stopping them from going right back to their old ways or worse. The post therapy checks are exactly the same questions as "why will you cheat on me". Your ask me literally doesn't show any change in your partner since you left.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 11:42 AM on September 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
And if they want a promise you won't leave no matter what, there will be exactly nothing stopping them from going right back to their old ways or worse. The post therapy checks are exactly the same questions as "why will you cheat on me". Your ask me literally doesn't show any change in your partner since you left.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 11:42 AM on September 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
I'm happier, by and large, not living with them.
This is all you need to know. Partnered love is being happier with someone. This isn’t that. Keep leaving.
posted by warriorqueen at 11:45 AM on September 2, 2023 [34 favorites]
This is all you need to know. Partnered love is being happier with someone. This isn’t that. Keep leaving.
posted by warriorqueen at 11:45 AM on September 2, 2023 [34 favorites]
And I find myself doubting myself, wondering if little things my spouse does — like checking in with me after I've had a therapy session to see if I've decided to leave for good — are the old behaviour showing up and I'm just not willing to see it.
YES that is what that is. And when you finally move back in and swear you are never ever leaving again, the manipulation and abuse will just escalate from there.
posted by DarlingBri at 11:57 AM on September 2, 2023 [27 favorites]
YES that is what that is. And when you finally move back in and swear you are never ever leaving again, the manipulation and abuse will just escalate from there.
posted by DarlingBri at 11:57 AM on September 2, 2023 [27 favorites]
Most therapists would not even consider it ethical to do couples therapy in these circumstances, where you are being treated in an abusive way.
Let that sink in.
Get space and distance foremost. And use tools for navigating things with an abusive partner, because whatever term you want to use, those are the tools that will serve you well here.
posted by asimplemouse at 11:59 AM on September 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
Let that sink in.
Get space and distance foremost. And use tools for navigating things with an abusive partner, because whatever term you want to use, those are the tools that will serve you well here.
posted by asimplemouse at 11:59 AM on September 2, 2023 [7 favorites]
I feel very sorry for your spouse. Their struggles with anxiety and depression must be incredibly painful - I recognize some of my own anxiety and depression in a much stronger and more severe form when you describe their actions, and I think it's the case that they are not maliciously getting a charge out of hurting and controlling you, just tormented by their own illness and fear.
I see that you feel really sorry for them too. If I were you, I'd probably lean toward overinvolving myself with them again because I would feel so bad for them. But you really shouldn't do this!
You can't make them better, and at this point you can't even really support them in their recovery - when they interact with you, their same anxiety behaviors come out again. Getting you to explain that you have not yet decided to leave forever - that's the same old controlling-anxiety stuff again. I mean, as an anxious person, I can imagine the crescendo of stress that they are feeling that leads them to ask this question over and over, but for them to recover they have to be able to stop asking it.
You're going to be better off if you divorce and cut off contact. They are going to be better off too, eventually. It will be a horrible, miserable shock for them but it will force a reckoning with their anxiety patterns.
If you go back and you're very, very lucky, this crisis will very slightly ameliorate things, but it won't fix anything for real and you'll just struggle along again.
This is awful, but it's like the awful that precedes an unpleasant medical procedure - you have to do it and when you do it you'll feel better. The dread is a torment but in the long run pushing through is better than avoiding the treatment.
posted by Frowner at 12:26 PM on September 2, 2023 [24 favorites]
I see that you feel really sorry for them too. If I were you, I'd probably lean toward overinvolving myself with them again because I would feel so bad for them. But you really shouldn't do this!
You can't make them better, and at this point you can't even really support them in their recovery - when they interact with you, their same anxiety behaviors come out again. Getting you to explain that you have not yet decided to leave forever - that's the same old controlling-anxiety stuff again. I mean, as an anxious person, I can imagine the crescendo of stress that they are feeling that leads them to ask this question over and over, but for them to recover they have to be able to stop asking it.
You're going to be better off if you divorce and cut off contact. They are going to be better off too, eventually. It will be a horrible, miserable shock for them but it will force a reckoning with their anxiety patterns.
If you go back and you're very, very lucky, this crisis will very slightly ameliorate things, but it won't fix anything for real and you'll just struggle along again.
This is awful, but it's like the awful that precedes an unpleasant medical procedure - you have to do it and when you do it you'll feel better. The dread is a torment but in the long run pushing through is better than avoiding the treatment.
posted by Frowner at 12:26 PM on September 2, 2023 [24 favorites]
you have acknowledged wanting to get out and you will never successfully reassure your spouse because the things they want to hear from you will never be true.
they also don’t believe you when you say things that are true, like when you deny cheating. and as awful as you make them sound, enough of their insecurities are based on accurate perceptions that it’s not realistic for them to be able to tell which things you say are empty avoidant reassurances and which are fact. you may not even always know the difference yourself. I don’t think this can be fixed for either of you while you are together in any sense.
you say you love them and I don’t think you’re being dishonest but I must say that I have a habit of always imagining the other person’s side of these things, always finding an alternate explanation that puts a different perspective on who is more at fault, and with your questions I am totally unable to do that. I get a powerful and visceral feeling of distaste, even disgust towards your spouse, whom I do not know, purely from the consistent description you give of them. and I don’t typically have trouble feeling sympathy for anxious people with profound personality problems.
I think that while I believe in your love, I also believe that when you write these questions you are expressing some other emotions that are just as real and extremely strong. at some point, a refusal to finish a breakup you know is right becomes (became) a commitment to prolonging pain, for yourself or for them. this is what your therapist apparently considers a show of strength. but it isn’t a good thing. a commitment to pain has to be broken.
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:33 PM on September 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
they also don’t believe you when you say things that are true, like when you deny cheating. and as awful as you make them sound, enough of their insecurities are based on accurate perceptions that it’s not realistic for them to be able to tell which things you say are empty avoidant reassurances and which are fact. you may not even always know the difference yourself. I don’t think this can be fixed for either of you while you are together in any sense.
you say you love them and I don’t think you’re being dishonest but I must say that I have a habit of always imagining the other person’s side of these things, always finding an alternate explanation that puts a different perspective on who is more at fault, and with your questions I am totally unable to do that. I get a powerful and visceral feeling of distaste, even disgust towards your spouse, whom I do not know, purely from the consistent description you give of them. and I don’t typically have trouble feeling sympathy for anxious people with profound personality problems.
I think that while I believe in your love, I also believe that when you write these questions you are expressing some other emotions that are just as real and extremely strong. at some point, a refusal to finish a breakup you know is right becomes (became) a commitment to prolonging pain, for yourself or for them. this is what your therapist apparently considers a show of strength. but it isn’t a good thing. a commitment to pain has to be broken.
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:33 PM on September 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
I wonder if your spouse has been going on about cheating for so long that perhaps you are subconsciously committed to the question, rather than the person? They're emotionally abusive and you're not sexually attracted to them anymore, so the odds are high that if you go back, eventually you will cheat on them. Maybe you want to prove yourself pure and right ("I'm so noble, they're wrong about me! I never would cheat") or want to satisfy them somehow by letting them be right ("they knew!") You know that leaving feels better in the day-to-day, but it isn't as emotionally satisfying, either through martyrdom (going back, suicidal ideation) or a big post-cheating final blowup that also debases you.
Anyway, drop your couples therapist, they have no business telling you to go on vacation with someone who interrogates you in the middle of the night. Save that money for a lawyer.
posted by kingdead at 12:57 PM on September 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Anyway, drop your couples therapist, they have no business telling you to go on vacation with someone who interrogates you in the middle of the night. Save that money for a lawyer.
posted by kingdead at 12:57 PM on September 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Hey Six Sided Sock! I just wanted to pop in and gently suggest that you haven't made a mess.
Your relationship with your partner is messy, but that isn't on you. And you are moving away from the mess it by distancing yourself from a partner who is invested in controlling you to ease their anxieties. Your partner's anxieties are not something you can actually assuage or fix, they are your partner's issues to acknowledge and manage.
And the way your partner continues to try to control you by snooping on you after your therapy is identical to your worry that they would pry into your journal a year ago. So they aren't making progress on not manipulating you, they've just switched tactics.
Frowner has said it well. I will add that your partner doesn't need to get better while in a relationship with you, because having you around gives them a lens through which to justify their anxieties and behaviours. A typical pattern could be: they feel anxious → decide that their anxiety is about you leaving /cheating → berate you about leaving / cheating → you withdraw to feel safe / re-equilibrate → they can now view your withdrawal as evidence that their anxieties were justified. Rinse and repeat.
It will be hard to break up (and I second everyone saying that no contact is the cleanest way out of this). But a break up is the kindest way for both you (and your partner) to ever be healthy and happy.
posted by Sauter Vaguely at 12:59 PM on September 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
Your relationship with your partner is messy, but that isn't on you. And you are moving away from the mess it by distancing yourself from a partner who is invested in controlling you to ease their anxieties. Your partner's anxieties are not something you can actually assuage or fix, they are your partner's issues to acknowledge and manage.
And the way your partner continues to try to control you by snooping on you after your therapy is identical to your worry that they would pry into your journal a year ago. So they aren't making progress on not manipulating you, they've just switched tactics.
Frowner has said it well. I will add that your partner doesn't need to get better while in a relationship with you, because having you around gives them a lens through which to justify their anxieties and behaviours. A typical pattern could be: they feel anxious → decide that their anxiety is about you leaving /cheating → berate you about leaving / cheating → you withdraw to feel safe / re-equilibrate → they can now view your withdrawal as evidence that their anxieties were justified. Rinse and repeat.
It will be hard to break up (and I second everyone saying that no contact is the cleanest way out of this). But a break up is the kindest way for both you (and your partner) to ever be healthy and happy.
posted by Sauter Vaguely at 12:59 PM on September 2, 2023 [12 favorites]
Check your MeFi mail, please.
posted by MonkeyToes at 1:22 PM on September 2, 2023
posted by MonkeyToes at 1:22 PM on September 2, 2023
My spouse deserves to be happy. I deserve to be happy.Both true. However, your spouse does not deserve to be happy at the price of you being unhappy.
posted by Flunkie at 1:24 PM on September 2, 2023 [25 favorites]
It sounds (from reading your previous asks) like you have a pattern of being with controlling, emotionally manipulative partners who play on your guilt, and then existing in these relationships in deep ambivalence, both wanting to extract yourself and not feeling certain about taking that step for a variety of reasons. Do you feel like this most recent iteration of this pattern is different from the previous times you have found yourself in this kind of relational dynamic?
I am familiar with the kind of anxiety you describe your spouse having, having been on both ends of it, and I can tell you with certainty that what you are seeing is NOT change. It is part of the cycle of a covert contract your spouse is engaging in, and they are already tipping their hand in terms of what they are expecting. From their perspective, their behavior won't recur as long as they feel safe and secure, but the thing is, they won't feel safe and secure inherently because they have outsourced the job of keeping them safe and secure to you. That is why they are asking you to promise things that you cannot promise, that no one can promise, nor should promise.
A true sign of them changing, or starting to change would be some indicator that they are becoming willing to tolerate their own distress at uncertainty. If they were suggesting that you move back in and couching it in a clear lack of expectations, I would feel more optimistic that maybe they are really working on themselves. If they were saying something like "I would like it if we could try again, I understand that you cannot promise me anything right now, and I am okay with that. I would still like the opportunity to see how a more-well-regulated version of myself could start to rebuild trust and comfort with you, and if we try and you still don't feel like you can recommit to me, I understand" -- that would be a positive indicator. But that is not what is happening. They don't even want to meet you at the step your therapist suggested and that you are willing to do (going away together) because they want to skip ahead to the finish line (you living back home).
I see nothing here that would suggest that your spouse has undergone a constructive transformation that would enable the two of you to build a healthier relationship, and it sounds like you are also reenacting a pattern you have enacted many times before. If you could hypothetically delete your spouse's wishes and feelings from your inner math around this, like an exercise where you can only talk about your feelings pertaining to yourself (worry about your spouse doesn't count), what would that constellation of feelings be like? Because it sounds like you would feel relieved, freed, and wanting to proceed with the separation.
posted by virve at 1:28 PM on September 2, 2023 [18 favorites]
I am familiar with the kind of anxiety you describe your spouse having, having been on both ends of it, and I can tell you with certainty that what you are seeing is NOT change. It is part of the cycle of a covert contract your spouse is engaging in, and they are already tipping their hand in terms of what they are expecting. From their perspective, their behavior won't recur as long as they feel safe and secure, but the thing is, they won't feel safe and secure inherently because they have outsourced the job of keeping them safe and secure to you. That is why they are asking you to promise things that you cannot promise, that no one can promise, nor should promise.
A true sign of them changing, or starting to change would be some indicator that they are becoming willing to tolerate their own distress at uncertainty. If they were suggesting that you move back in and couching it in a clear lack of expectations, I would feel more optimistic that maybe they are really working on themselves. If they were saying something like "I would like it if we could try again, I understand that you cannot promise me anything right now, and I am okay with that. I would still like the opportunity to see how a more-well-regulated version of myself could start to rebuild trust and comfort with you, and if we try and you still don't feel like you can recommit to me, I understand" -- that would be a positive indicator. But that is not what is happening. They don't even want to meet you at the step your therapist suggested and that you are willing to do (going away together) because they want to skip ahead to the finish line (you living back home).
I see nothing here that would suggest that your spouse has undergone a constructive transformation that would enable the two of you to build a healthier relationship, and it sounds like you are also reenacting a pattern you have enacted many times before. If you could hypothetically delete your spouse's wishes and feelings from your inner math around this, like an exercise where you can only talk about your feelings pertaining to yourself (worry about your spouse doesn't count), what would that constellation of feelings be like? Because it sounds like you would feel relieved, freed, and wanting to proceed with the separation.
posted by virve at 1:28 PM on September 2, 2023 [18 favorites]
your spouse does not deserve to be happy at the price of you being unhappy.
QFT. If your unhappiness is the price of making things work, it’s not working.
posted by MonkeyToes at 1:33 PM on September 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
QFT. If your unhappiness is the price of making things work, it’s not working.
posted by MonkeyToes at 1:33 PM on September 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Most therapists would not even consider it ethical to do couples therapy in these circumstances, where you are being treated in an abusive way.
Absolutely. You should not be in couples counseling with an abusive partner! It is entirely the wrong way of framing the situation.
I need to know that going back to my spouse would be safe
You can't, because it won't be. Do you want to spend the rest of your life being interrogated every time you leave the house and having your private papers rifled through on a regular basis? Of course not. That is all you have to look forward to from this person.
posted by praemunire at 1:47 PM on September 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Absolutely. You should not be in couples counseling with an abusive partner! It is entirely the wrong way of framing the situation.
I need to know that going back to my spouse would be safe
You can't, because it won't be. Do you want to spend the rest of your life being interrogated every time you leave the house and having your private papers rifled through on a regular basis? Of course not. That is all you have to look forward to from this person.
posted by praemunire at 1:47 PM on September 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
There is nothing you can say or do to convince them you are a safe person for their needs (And they probably require professional grade help plus medication)
And there is nothing they can say or do to prove they won't trample all over you constantly. This is a no win game, just a spiral to the bottom.
The kindest thing you can do for them and you is to not fuel the martyrdom cycle. Leave. Be happy.
posted by Jacen at 2:00 PM on September 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
And there is nothing they can say or do to prove they won't trample all over you constantly. This is a no win game, just a spiral to the bottom.
The kindest thing you can do for them and you is to not fuel the martyrdom cycle. Leave. Be happy.
posted by Jacen at 2:00 PM on September 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Encouraging everyone to remember that the six sided sock specified that the pronouns of the spouse in question is they/them.
posted by virve at 2:20 PM on September 2, 2023 [14 favorites]
posted by virve at 2:20 PM on September 2, 2023 [14 favorites]
Mentally segregate your feelings of guilt and shame from your other feelings. What are those other feelings?
My suspicion is they look a lot like "I'm happier, by and large, not living with them."
Guilt and shame have their purpose but in this case they look distinctly maladaptive and inappropriate, if understandable. Work on not letting them dominate you.
posted by deadwax at 2:22 PM on September 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
My suspicion is they look a lot like "I'm happier, by and large, not living with them."
Guilt and shame have their purpose but in this case they look distinctly maladaptive and inappropriate, if understandable. Work on not letting them dominate you.
posted by deadwax at 2:22 PM on September 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Please give yourself grace in all of this—you are allowed to have mixed feelings and to have a difficult time making this decision, even if it is hard on you both. It is a big decision, and just because it may eventually feel clear to you which way to go doesn’t mean that you didn’t need all the time that it took you to get there.
None of this is a failing on your part. You deserve time to step back and reflect—that is what a separation is and you are doing nothing wrong. Do not let anyone, yourself included, tell you any differently.
posted by pie_seven at 2:38 PM on September 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
None of this is a failing on your part. You deserve time to step back and reflect—that is what a separation is and you are doing nothing wrong. Do not let anyone, yourself included, tell you any differently.
posted by pie_seven at 2:38 PM on September 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
My spouse tells me that they're afraid that if I do come home I'm just going to leave "if [they] do anything wrong", and that they need to know that I definitely won't.
No, they do not need to know this. No one is allowed to know this, because everyone's partner can and really should leave a relationship if a red line is crossed. Your partner is once again engaging in the kind of manipulative behavior that caused you to leave the house, and you can absolutely count on it continuing and worsening if you return. It is very, extremely, incredibly common for emotionally abusive people to go to therapy for a brief period and immediately start trumpeting that they have fixed things and everything is going to be fine from now on. Spoiler alert, they have not fixed things. It is not possible to go to therapy and immediately undo years and decades' worth of living an emotionally unhealthy and abusive life pattern. I will repeat this. It is simply NOT POSSIBLE. And you should NEVER believe anyone who claims it is, whether it's a partner or a guru or a book for sale.
Your partner needs to learn how to function independently and safely as a human being. They cannot do this if they are still reliant on you. You will be actively harming your partner if you return to this marriage. You will also be harming yourself, but clearly, something inside you is preventing you from viewing harm to yourself as unacceptable. So, is harm to your partner unacceptable? Are you going to do what your partner's mental illness is asking of you, or are you going to what is best for them, and refuse to continue enabling their emotionally unhealthy and self-sabotaging lifestyle?
Also, I find it is very rarely true that "no contact" can't honestly be achieved. Do you share a workplace? Time to find a new job. Do you share pets, as you state? Time to drop off animals with an intermediary involved, like people with coparenting issues do, or else evacuate the premises if your partner needs to visit the animals. Get a coparenting app installed on your phone and do not communicate outside of it. If people with honest-to-god children can successfully avoid each other, so can the two of you.
I'm sorry if any of this sounds harsh, but come on. You are so close to ending this pain. Talk through your shame at the marriage failing with your therapist, and come up with a plan for distantly informing judgmental family members as to what's happened and why you will not be discussing it with them or listening to their commentary about it. Lean on supportive friends. You have not made a mess, but you DO know the only way to get out of this situation. You need to listen to the gut instinct that you got you out of that house, no matter how painful or dread-inducing it feels. The only way out is through. The pain will not stop for either of you until you accept this.
posted by desert outpost at 3:20 PM on September 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
No, they do not need to know this. No one is allowed to know this, because everyone's partner can and really should leave a relationship if a red line is crossed. Your partner is once again engaging in the kind of manipulative behavior that caused you to leave the house, and you can absolutely count on it continuing and worsening if you return. It is very, extremely, incredibly common for emotionally abusive people to go to therapy for a brief period and immediately start trumpeting that they have fixed things and everything is going to be fine from now on. Spoiler alert, they have not fixed things. It is not possible to go to therapy and immediately undo years and decades' worth of living an emotionally unhealthy and abusive life pattern. I will repeat this. It is simply NOT POSSIBLE. And you should NEVER believe anyone who claims it is, whether it's a partner or a guru or a book for sale.
Your partner needs to learn how to function independently and safely as a human being. They cannot do this if they are still reliant on you. You will be actively harming your partner if you return to this marriage. You will also be harming yourself, but clearly, something inside you is preventing you from viewing harm to yourself as unacceptable. So, is harm to your partner unacceptable? Are you going to do what your partner's mental illness is asking of you, or are you going to what is best for them, and refuse to continue enabling their emotionally unhealthy and self-sabotaging lifestyle?
Also, I find it is very rarely true that "no contact" can't honestly be achieved. Do you share a workplace? Time to find a new job. Do you share pets, as you state? Time to drop off animals with an intermediary involved, like people with coparenting issues do, or else evacuate the premises if your partner needs to visit the animals. Get a coparenting app installed on your phone and do not communicate outside of it. If people with honest-to-god children can successfully avoid each other, so can the two of you.
I'm sorry if any of this sounds harsh, but come on. You are so close to ending this pain. Talk through your shame at the marriage failing with your therapist, and come up with a plan for distantly informing judgmental family members as to what's happened and why you will not be discussing it with them or listening to their commentary about it. Lean on supportive friends. You have not made a mess, but you DO know the only way to get out of this situation. You need to listen to the gut instinct that you got you out of that house, no matter how painful or dread-inducing it feels. The only way out is through. The pain will not stop for either of you until you accept this.
posted by desert outpost at 3:20 PM on September 2, 2023 [13 favorites]
. And I find myself doubting myself, wondering if little things my spouse does — like checking in with me after I've had a therapy session to see if I've decided to leave for good — are the old behaviour showing up and I'm just not willing to see it.
As noted above, this is their old behavior. When they say their anxiety is under control, they are are wrong (at best), because the above is the exact same behavior that caused you to leave is reoccurring right now, before you have moved back. They're just substituting leaving for cheating.
If you're not ready to divorce, that's ok. It's been difficult, you can take time and space to figure things out. Your spouse is perfectly free to decide to work on themselves and wait for your return, or move on themselves. They are not entitled to immediate answers, especially when your couples therapy is really just a therapy session for them with you tagging along.
It is ok that you're confused. Not living together has probably helped things feel a lot better. Unfortunately that's because you're not living together, not because your spouse has changed.
People deserve to be happy. You do not have to sacrifice yours to make someone else happy. I don't honestly think you actually can do that anyways. You returning will not fix their anxiety. The only baby steps they've sort of taken towards working on it occurred after you left, and only then to get you to do something they want.
They do not appear to care about making you feel safe enough to return. They're making demands for them to feel safe. Maybe that's all they are capable of right now, but it's not fair to you.
With their anxiety you returning will never be enough to make them feel safe and happy. If they're saying their anxiety is under control, they are in denial and that does not bode well for any future progress. So you will wind up right where you were.
posted by ghost phoneme at 3:51 PM on September 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
As noted above, this is their old behavior. When they say their anxiety is under control, they are are wrong (at best), because the above is the exact same behavior that caused you to leave is reoccurring right now, before you have moved back. They're just substituting leaving for cheating.
If you're not ready to divorce, that's ok. It's been difficult, you can take time and space to figure things out. Your spouse is perfectly free to decide to work on themselves and wait for your return, or move on themselves. They are not entitled to immediate answers, especially when your couples therapy is really just a therapy session for them with you tagging along.
It is ok that you're confused. Not living together has probably helped things feel a lot better. Unfortunately that's because you're not living together, not because your spouse has changed.
People deserve to be happy. You do not have to sacrifice yours to make someone else happy. I don't honestly think you actually can do that anyways. You returning will not fix their anxiety. The only baby steps they've sort of taken towards working on it occurred after you left, and only then to get you to do something they want.
They do not appear to care about making you feel safe enough to return. They're making demands for them to feel safe. Maybe that's all they are capable of right now, but it's not fair to you.
With their anxiety you returning will never be enough to make them feel safe and happy. If they're saying their anxiety is under control, they are in denial and that does not bode well for any future progress. So you will wind up right where you were.
posted by ghost phoneme at 3:51 PM on September 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
I looked at your question again and noticed you'd planned to "take some time away together" next week. That's soon.
But if you're feeling up to it, it gives you a useful lead-in to the things you now need to say.
Start with the small thing: "I'm sorry, but I can't go on that trip with you."
Next thing: "I've decided I won't be moving back in."
Biggest thing: "And I want to move forward with a divorce."
"Let's work on how we can make this as easy as possible for us both."
posted by Pallas Athena at 3:53 PM on September 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
But if you're feeling up to it, it gives you a useful lead-in to the things you now need to say.
Start with the small thing: "I'm sorry, but I can't go on that trip with you."
Next thing: "I've decided I won't be moving back in."
Biggest thing: "And I want to move forward with a divorce."
"Let's work on how we can make this as easy as possible for us both."
posted by Pallas Athena at 3:53 PM on September 2, 2023 [10 favorites]
Have you had a really honest, non-varnished conversation with your therapist about the possibility that you do not have "marriage problems" but rather a spouse with severe untreated treatment-refusing mental health or neurological problems that you have been busting your ass to hide from everyone else in your life for years now that you are now hyperaware of how hard the wheels are going to come off if you stop doing all their functioning for them, and stop internalizing very serious problems as probably your fault somehow because you might have accidentally cheated in the future so they're probably right to interrogate you in the middle of the night about it if you really think about it?
You moved out to keep them from killing your pets. Tell your therapist that. Tell the couples counselor too, who should end therapy immediately.
What you tell your family and friends is that you love your partner and you are fucking terrified, but your partner is not well (or "making their own life choices right now" if you need to be diplomatic) and things are not really under control and you are muddling along as best you can and you need everyone's love and support and do not welcome judgement or advice, and maybe also to just give them a heads-up in case they have their own interactions with them that are off in some way.
It's scary, leaving someone to their own delusional devices, when they're not sick enough yet to get sectioned and will never commit themselves but you know the situation is going to escalate when you leave. But it's going to escalate if you stay anyway. Unless they experience some kind of miracle remission or cure, eventually there is going to be some kind of detached-reality incident, or it's going to become undeniable that there is a brain tumor or early-onset dementia or blood poisoning from kidney disease or whatever it is that has been escalating in this person for several years. You're going to get that call or knock on the door, it'll be you whether you're married or divorced. While you might be able to keep the wolves at bay another year if you went back, you might be in a better place to deal with the fallout if you are established on your own and mostly able to work unhindered and have stabilized your finances.
I hope you choose stability and find a place of peace not caring what other people think about a shitty situation that is not your fault and you cannot fix. It is okay to hold out hope that your partner gets the help and/or treatment they need so that you maybe can re-forge a relationship, or at least be on non-threatening terms. I hope that you haven't clenched the reins so hard for so long that you can't cope with releasing them. You have tried. You have done what you can. You cannot, at the end of the day, make someone get help until something forces the issue, and even then you can't make them accept it or use it. You've got to let them work this out for themself.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:14 PM on September 2, 2023 [24 favorites]
You moved out to keep them from killing your pets. Tell your therapist that. Tell the couples counselor too, who should end therapy immediately.
What you tell your family and friends is that you love your partner and you are fucking terrified, but your partner is not well (or "making their own life choices right now" if you need to be diplomatic) and things are not really under control and you are muddling along as best you can and you need everyone's love and support and do not welcome judgement or advice, and maybe also to just give them a heads-up in case they have their own interactions with them that are off in some way.
It's scary, leaving someone to their own delusional devices, when they're not sick enough yet to get sectioned and will never commit themselves but you know the situation is going to escalate when you leave. But it's going to escalate if you stay anyway. Unless they experience some kind of miracle remission or cure, eventually there is going to be some kind of detached-reality incident, or it's going to become undeniable that there is a brain tumor or early-onset dementia or blood poisoning from kidney disease or whatever it is that has been escalating in this person for several years. You're going to get that call or knock on the door, it'll be you whether you're married or divorced. While you might be able to keep the wolves at bay another year if you went back, you might be in a better place to deal with the fallout if you are established on your own and mostly able to work unhindered and have stabilized your finances.
I hope you choose stability and find a place of peace not caring what other people think about a shitty situation that is not your fault and you cannot fix. It is okay to hold out hope that your partner gets the help and/or treatment they need so that you maybe can re-forge a relationship, or at least be on non-threatening terms. I hope that you haven't clenched the reins so hard for so long that you can't cope with releasing them. You have tried. You have done what you can. You cannot, at the end of the day, make someone get help until something forces the issue, and even then you can't make them accept it or use it. You've got to let them work this out for themself.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:14 PM on September 2, 2023 [24 favorites]
I’m struck by your brief headline, that you’ve made a mess and you don’t know how to get out of it. Because you haven’t made a mess. You were in a mess, and you are now getting out of it.
If you go back, it’s only going to be a week or two, or a month or two at most, where you say, “Wtf, I had done the hard work of getting out, why on earth did I think they’d change? Why did I go back?”
You can do this. You need to do this.
posted by bluedaisy at 5:43 PM on September 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
If you go back, it’s only going to be a week or two, or a month or two at most, where you say, “Wtf, I had done the hard work of getting out, why on earth did I think they’d change? Why did I go back?”
You can do this. You need to do this.
posted by bluedaisy at 5:43 PM on September 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
Wait, this is "let's kill our pets just in case the Ukraine situation gets worse" spouse? Not only did you not make a mess, you took the right and incredibly brave action in getting yourself and your pets out of the mess!
Do not go "away" anywhere with this person. I don't want to be alarmist, but you are not safe with them. Has your therapist and the couples counselor (who should've refused to see you together after intake) read those posts? If they have, and they're encouraging trips together...you need a new one, stat.
posted by praemunire at 5:50 PM on September 2, 2023 [24 favorites]
Do not go "away" anywhere with this person. I don't want to be alarmist, but you are not safe with them. Has your therapist and the couples counselor (who should've refused to see you together after intake) read those posts? If they have, and they're encouraging trips together...you need a new one, stat.
posted by praemunire at 5:50 PM on September 2, 2023 [24 favorites]
When I was in your situation, having just left a marriage but feeling immense pressure from my ex to come back, my therapist told me something that helped a lot:
that I have all the time in the world to reconcile.
that there is nothing that would stop us getting back together five years from now, three years from now, whatever. there is nobody pressuring us to stay apart.
that now is the time to give the breakup a real chance, because THIS is what's hard, THIS is what there have been real barriers to, THIS is something for which opportunities are limited, THIS is what I'm being strongly pressured not to do. THIS is what I may never get a chance to do again, if I give up now.
You've fought very hard and worked your ass off to get to this level of separation. Honor this work. It's not every day you will be able to get back to this level! Getting back together, in contrast, is the easiest thing in the world, something you can choose to do at any time you wish, like falling off the wagon. It's not "now or never" on your relationship. It's "now or never" on your breakup.
posted by MiraK at 6:50 PM on September 2, 2023 [29 favorites]
that I have all the time in the world to reconcile.
that there is nothing that would stop us getting back together five years from now, three years from now, whatever. there is nobody pressuring us to stay apart.
that now is the time to give the breakup a real chance, because THIS is what's hard, THIS is what there have been real barriers to, THIS is something for which opportunities are limited, THIS is what I'm being strongly pressured not to do. THIS is what I may never get a chance to do again, if I give up now.
You've fought very hard and worked your ass off to get to this level of separation. Honor this work. It's not every day you will be able to get back to this level! Getting back together, in contrast, is the easiest thing in the world, something you can choose to do at any time you wish, like falling off the wagon. It's not "now or never" on your relationship. It's "now or never" on your breakup.
posted by MiraK at 6:50 PM on September 2, 2023 [29 favorites]
Don't move back in with them because "it might work out ok". Move in with them because you can't and don't want to live without them. Live separately until you can't stand being apart from them. Right no, living separately seems like the right thing.
posted by hydra77 at 7:45 PM on September 2, 2023
posted by hydra77 at 7:45 PM on September 2, 2023
Sometimes it takes a lot of run-ups to finally get over a high jump. Sooner or later you’re going to leap and keep moving. You can pick doing it now, or you can pick doing it later.
Who you are around a person and who they are around you, rarely changes. Maybe it does for a bit, but it doesn’t last. Tortured late night conversations, being inside someone else’s skewed mental state, it’s just too hard to be yourself in that environment.
I would drop the couples therapy and concentrate on your individual therapeutic relationship, and let your spouse do that too. Couples therapy was a site through which I learned [like you have] that I didn’t respect my spouse’s ability to critically examine what they brought to the relationship. Think about a therapy session as a microcosm, a one act drama if you like, of the whole relationship. You can never state your needs or your rational desires because they are always going to be sublimated to the mental problems of your spouse.
posted by honey-barbara at 8:58 PM on September 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Who you are around a person and who they are around you, rarely changes. Maybe it does for a bit, but it doesn’t last. Tortured late night conversations, being inside someone else’s skewed mental state, it’s just too hard to be yourself in that environment.
I would drop the couples therapy and concentrate on your individual therapeutic relationship, and let your spouse do that too. Couples therapy was a site through which I learned [like you have] that I didn’t respect my spouse’s ability to critically examine what they brought to the relationship. Think about a therapy session as a microcosm, a one act drama if you like, of the whole relationship. You can never state your needs or your rational desires because they are always going to be sublimated to the mental problems of your spouse.
posted by honey-barbara at 8:58 PM on September 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Time will make the decision clearer. Why the pressure to move back and go away together now? Why not plan it for when your house sitting gig is up?
Fwiw, your spouse has not changed who they are, they just have white washed it. You can put a fresh coat of paint on the outside of a house that is not ideal to live in, but it is still the same shitty house on the inside.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:37 PM on September 2, 2023
Fwiw, your spouse has not changed who they are, they just have white washed it. You can put a fresh coat of paint on the outside of a house that is not ideal to live in, but it is still the same shitty house on the inside.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 10:37 PM on September 2, 2023
I realise now that my spouse would likely have been so much better off if I had just told them I wanted a divorce
That's a good realization. It would have been better for them to tell them then, and it would be second-best for them to tell them now. And so on.
I've found myself suffering from idle intrusive thoughts about how nice it would be to just stop being alive, so that I didn't have to face this anymore. I have no actual desire to die, but it has been scaring me, and a couple of times I've been a hair's breadth from calling the Samaritans because I just wanted the thoughts to stop
There was a period when I felt this way. I was under huge, prolonged stress.
You've spent so much desperate energy taking care of your spouse, who has not been taking care of you. Someone needs to. Please take care of yourself now, finally. You matter just as much as they do.
posted by trig at 12:04 AM on September 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
That's a good realization. It would have been better for them to tell them then, and it would be second-best for them to tell them now. And so on.
I've found myself suffering from idle intrusive thoughts about how nice it would be to just stop being alive, so that I didn't have to face this anymore. I have no actual desire to die, but it has been scaring me, and a couple of times I've been a hair's breadth from calling the Samaritans because I just wanted the thoughts to stop
There was a period when I felt this way. I was under huge, prolonged stress.
You've spent so much desperate energy taking care of your spouse, who has not been taking care of you. Someone needs to. Please take care of yourself now, finally. You matter just as much as they do.
posted by trig at 12:04 AM on September 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm not a therapist or a relationship expert. But I am a guy who has been happily married for 26 years, and I've been witness to a lot of my friends' marriages (happy and unhappy). I am also a guy who has read all your previous AskMes. And I think you are falling prey to two common misconceptions about marriage.
MISCONCEPTION 1: "Love is enough." Love is emphatically not enough. Love is necessary-- but so are enjoyment, respect, and trust. You love your spouse but you clearly do not enjoy them or trust them and if I were you, I wouldn't respect them either. This is not enough to make a marriage last. It will never be enough to make a good marriage, no matter how deep and real the love is. You deserve to be with somebody you love and trust and respect and enjoy, who also feels those things about you. So does your partner-- whatever else they feel, they clearly doesn't trust you. In the long run, a divorce is the kindest possible thing you can do for both of you.
MISCONCEPTION 2: "Marriage is hard work." This is true, insofar as a happy marriage takes work to continue being happy (and to get past temporary periods of unhappiness). But it's a misconception insofar as it leads people in unhappy marriages to think that their constant struggle to be less miserable is some inherent feature of marriage. It's not. Take all the incredible hard work you're doing to prevent your unhappy marriage from dissolving and instead apply it towards breaking free. And once you are ready, apply it towards finding (and then maintaining) a relationship with somebody whom you love, trust, enjoy, and respect.
posted by yankeefog at 2:42 AM on September 3, 2023 [21 favorites]
MISCONCEPTION 1: "Love is enough." Love is emphatically not enough. Love is necessary-- but so are enjoyment, respect, and trust. You love your spouse but you clearly do not enjoy them or trust them and if I were you, I wouldn't respect them either. This is not enough to make a marriage last. It will never be enough to make a good marriage, no matter how deep and real the love is. You deserve to be with somebody you love and trust and respect and enjoy, who also feels those things about you. So does your partner-- whatever else they feel, they clearly doesn't trust you. In the long run, a divorce is the kindest possible thing you can do for both of you.
MISCONCEPTION 2: "Marriage is hard work." This is true, insofar as a happy marriage takes work to continue being happy (and to get past temporary periods of unhappiness). But it's a misconception insofar as it leads people in unhappy marriages to think that their constant struggle to be less miserable is some inherent feature of marriage. It's not. Take all the incredible hard work you're doing to prevent your unhappy marriage from dissolving and instead apply it towards breaking free. And once you are ready, apply it towards finding (and then maintaining) a relationship with somebody whom you love, trust, enjoy, and respect.
posted by yankeefog at 2:42 AM on September 3, 2023 [21 favorites]
"My spouse tells me that they're afraid that if I do come home I'm just going to leave 'if [they] do anything wrong', and that they need to know that I definitely won't."
in other words, "I want to continue making you miserable without consequences. You must take whatever I dish out, and now I'd like to be able to add "you promiiiiiised!"
Love is only part of what makes a happy life together with someone possible. The rest of it is largely CONSIDERATION and RELIABILITY. Your (hopefully soon-to-be) ex brings neither of those necessary elements to the table.
Also, if a data point helps: my spouse to whom I've been happily married for many years also felt that almost-suicidal, guilty feeling when he was in initial stages of divorcing his ex. It's totally normal. And it's totally transitory. Feel the feelings, don't act on the feelings, they will fade in the rear view mirror as you free yourself from your unfortunate marriage.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:50 AM on September 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
in other words, "I want to continue making you miserable without consequences. You must take whatever I dish out, and now I'd like to be able to add "you promiiiiiised!"
Love is only part of what makes a happy life together with someone possible. The rest of it is largely CONSIDERATION and RELIABILITY. Your (hopefully soon-to-be) ex brings neither of those necessary elements to the table.
Also, if a data point helps: my spouse to whom I've been happily married for many years also felt that almost-suicidal, guilty feeling when he was in initial stages of divorcing his ex. It's totally normal. And it's totally transitory. Feel the feelings, don't act on the feelings, they will fade in the rear view mirror as you free yourself from your unfortunate marriage.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:50 AM on September 3, 2023 [5 favorites]
Also, this post from Captain Awkward offers a great perspective on messy maybe-break-up situations.
posted by M. at 11:35 AM on September 3, 2023
posted by M. at 11:35 AM on September 3, 2023
You sound really unhappy in that relationship. How much longer would you like to be unhappy for? And you might say, wow, that sounds really flippant but it’s not, it’s the truth. You’ve had a taste of freedom, why would you ever go back to being feeing like that again?
And if your partner loved you, why would they want you to feel terrible? I know you might say, but then my partner will be miserable…well everyone is responsible for their own happiness, including them and they will manage and move on, as will you.
So yes, the choice is how much longer would you like to be unhappy for? You know what to do.
posted by Jubey at 2:25 AM on September 4, 2023
And if your partner loved you, why would they want you to feel terrible? I know you might say, but then my partner will be miserable…well everyone is responsible for their own happiness, including them and they will manage and move on, as will you.
So yes, the choice is how much longer would you like to be unhappy for? You know what to do.
posted by Jubey at 2:25 AM on September 4, 2023
Your spouse's behaviour hasn't improved if they want you to promise to stay no matter how much they hurt you. Don't go on the trip next week. Your couples counsellor doesn't understand how toxic the situation is. Keep the level of contact you currently have (brief visits + therapy) if you don't feel ready to fully separate just yet, and consider ending the couple's therapy.
Also, I'd like to chime in to tell you not to judge yourself if you become twice-divorced.
It sounds like you've had a difficult past with abusive partners and it takes a long time to heal from those experiences. It's often two steps forward, one step back. You may be stepping back from this marriage, but you've taken two steps forwards by recognising you don't deserve this sort of treatment. You need someone who reciprocates the love and trust you offer.
There is no one true correct path to achieving a comfortable life, despite what parents and teachers tell you.
posted by wandering zinnia at 6:13 AM on September 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
Also, I'd like to chime in to tell you not to judge yourself if you become twice-divorced.
It sounds like you've had a difficult past with abusive partners and it takes a long time to heal from those experiences. It's often two steps forward, one step back. You may be stepping back from this marriage, but you've taken two steps forwards by recognising you don't deserve this sort of treatment. You need someone who reciprocates the love and trust you offer.
There is no one true correct path to achieving a comfortable life, despite what parents and teachers tell you.
posted by wandering zinnia at 6:13 AM on September 4, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm so happy you've come this far! Please know that at least for me, when I see your posts I don't think "oh no, her again," but "thank goodness she's okay!"
It seems like you think that because you weren't clear about your intentions from the get-go, that you can't break up with your spouse now. You still can! Imagine saying "I have to stay at my job because my resignation email had typos"--your right to leave exists no matter how imperfect your behavior has been. Please don't go back to them out of guilt. As terrible of a partner as they are, they deserve to be with someone who wants to be with them, which you clearly do not.
posted by chaiminda at 7:23 AM on September 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
It seems like you think that because you weren't clear about your intentions from the get-go, that you can't break up with your spouse now. You still can! Imagine saying "I have to stay at my job because my resignation email had typos"--your right to leave exists no matter how imperfect your behavior has been. Please don't go back to them out of guilt. As terrible of a partner as they are, they deserve to be with someone who wants to be with them, which you clearly do not.
posted by chaiminda at 7:23 AM on September 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
Mod note: A few corrections made to pronouns of OP's spouse in a few comments to ensure their gender is not being assumed and that they aren't being misgendered.
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 7:13 PM on September 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by travelingthyme (staff) at 7:13 PM on September 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
1. By refusing most treatment for their mental health, your spouse has showed a lack of care for you. A household sinks or floats together, and being “let’s euthanize our pets/why are you cheating on me” level ill without trying HARD to get better is not acceptable partner behavior.
2. This “I went to six therapy visits so I’m changed” + “it’s not okay for you to talk about the past” deal is not well grounded in reality.
3. You felt better as soon as you got away from them.
What would you advise a friend who was in your situation? The answer seems obvious to me.
posted by hungrytiger at 11:28 PM on September 4, 2023
2. This “I went to six therapy visits so I’m changed” + “it’s not okay for you to talk about the past” deal is not well grounded in reality.
3. You felt better as soon as you got away from them.
What would you advise a friend who was in your situation? The answer seems obvious to me.
posted by hungrytiger at 11:28 PM on September 4, 2023
We're all rooting for you here, OP.
Elements of this relationship feel very familiar to me from my time with somebody who I was only able to understand as being seriously emotionally abusive once I had been fully out of the relationship for probably six months. Prior to that, I knew it very clearly on some level, based on how deeply and persistently unhappy I was, how unrecognizable to myself I had become, and how little sense many things made- but staying in a relationship as a caretaker for someone like this really requires a high level of denial. It's an agreement to live in an insular world where their dysfunction sets the terms of what is 'normal' and okay, and an agreement that you are there to support and care for them no matter what they throw at you. (In my case my ex-partner was adamant that their trauma and mental health conditions were the driver for everything that was happening, and that to object to their behavior was ableist, a premise I was too willing to accept for too long: our 'agreement' was that their sincere struggles excused what was happening, that it could not be abuse because they lacked ill intent, and that I just needed to be more understanding, 'better at mental health', etc.) Acknowledging that what's happening is abusive is psychologically threatening because once you accept that, it is very hard to justify staying in a situation that you can tether yourself to indefinitely when you're using euphemistic language to dance around how destructive it is.
I'd second the 'Stop Caretaking...' recommendation above, even if you do not think those particular labels describe your partner. Also, a review of this piece: https://www.issendai.com/psychology/sick-systems.html. My ex was also in therapy and even made some apparent improvements in the months before I left. People with symptoms like your partner's will often put on a great show of this when they sense that their relationships are seriously threatened, and it is a very effective trap (because how can you leave them when they're trying?). I will also note that my therapist at the time was clear to me that someone who was struggling in the ways that my then-partner was would require years of therapy to be able to leave behind many of the harmful behaviors, and even then it might not be consistent. Do you have years of your life to put into getting to baseline acceptable?
In all of the many, many advice threads I read when I needed to get myself out but kept getting myself right up to the line and then not following through, the language that somehow got around all my defenses was this: that you have an obligation to yourself to take the best care of yourself and your life that you can, including selecting the best partner for yourself that you can. Somehow that hit home even more than being told that I was worth more, that I deserved better, and so on- all of which are also true for you. I hope something in this thread lands in that place for you. I hope you get out for real soon. Taking care of this person is not why you are here on earth. All the best to you.
posted by wormtales at 7:02 AM on September 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
Elements of this relationship feel very familiar to me from my time with somebody who I was only able to understand as being seriously emotionally abusive once I had been fully out of the relationship for probably six months. Prior to that, I knew it very clearly on some level, based on how deeply and persistently unhappy I was, how unrecognizable to myself I had become, and how little sense many things made- but staying in a relationship as a caretaker for someone like this really requires a high level of denial. It's an agreement to live in an insular world where their dysfunction sets the terms of what is 'normal' and okay, and an agreement that you are there to support and care for them no matter what they throw at you. (In my case my ex-partner was adamant that their trauma and mental health conditions were the driver for everything that was happening, and that to object to their behavior was ableist, a premise I was too willing to accept for too long: our 'agreement' was that their sincere struggles excused what was happening, that it could not be abuse because they lacked ill intent, and that I just needed to be more understanding, 'better at mental health', etc.) Acknowledging that what's happening is abusive is psychologically threatening because once you accept that, it is very hard to justify staying in a situation that you can tether yourself to indefinitely when you're using euphemistic language to dance around how destructive it is.
I'd second the 'Stop Caretaking...' recommendation above, even if you do not think those particular labels describe your partner. Also, a review of this piece: https://www.issendai.com/psychology/sick-systems.html. My ex was also in therapy and even made some apparent improvements in the months before I left. People with symptoms like your partner's will often put on a great show of this when they sense that their relationships are seriously threatened, and it is a very effective trap (because how can you leave them when they're trying?). I will also note that my therapist at the time was clear to me that someone who was struggling in the ways that my then-partner was would require years of therapy to be able to leave behind many of the harmful behaviors, and even then it might not be consistent. Do you have years of your life to put into getting to baseline acceptable?
In all of the many, many advice threads I read when I needed to get myself out but kept getting myself right up to the line and then not following through, the language that somehow got around all my defenses was this: that you have an obligation to yourself to take the best care of yourself and your life that you can, including selecting the best partner for yourself that you can. Somehow that hit home even more than being told that I was worth more, that I deserved better, and so on- all of which are also true for you. I hope something in this thread lands in that place for you. I hope you get out for real soon. Taking care of this person is not why you are here on earth. All the best to you.
posted by wormtales at 7:02 AM on September 5, 2023 [7 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 10:14 AM on September 2, 2023 [44 favorites]