Ethical ways to correct incorrect gossip?
May 26, 2023 4:46 PM Subscribe
There's some gossipy chit-chat going on in my circles. I've kept out of it, but now I actually think that might be the morally wrong thing to do. Please help me think through this and plan a (potential) response.
Everyone involved in this is in their late 50s or older, so these are all full-ass adults.
So two longtime friends of mine are getting divorced, Husband and Wife. Husband was originally my friend before he ever met Wife, but that distinction has certainly felt irrelevant as literal decades have passed during their marriage, and I have always been friendly with both of them. Both of them separately called me to tell me their marriage was ending, and they both told versions of the same story: Husband felt done with the marriage; Husband is driving the whole thing; Wife was blindsided. The tiniest nuances between their stories are re: how long Husband felt that the relationship was over, and whether Wife should or shouldn't have seen this coming.
I separately socialized with each of them, and they each wanted to talk through what was going on. They're clearly both still very immersed in processing what's happened, even Husband, who is driving this whole thing. From my outside perspective, knowing them both, I think the Husband is going through a mid-life (or later) crisis, is chasing after his lost youth, and is making a big mistake. (But I kept that to myself, I promise!)
A few months went by, the divorce is in progress, they're living in separate households. And someone in our extended social circle says to me, "I bet this is all Wife's fault. Maybe she was having an affair." My response was completely noncommittal/non-gossipy: "This is sad for everyone, I'm sorry to see the relationship end, I hope it all gets resolved amicably, etc." I did not engage in any details, and changed the subject.
End of story...except that now another few months went by and I had a second completely unrelated person basically offering up the same theory: it's Wife who drove this, she was probably done with the relationship, etc.
This weekend I'm getting together with a bunch of people in this social circle, including both those gossipers. What should I say/do if the subject comes up again? I will certainly not bring it up on my own, but I'd like something to say if it happens. I know I could say "Let's not talk about their reasons" but also I want to defend Wife, who seems to be getting the villain edit in our circles. So is there an ethical way to respond in this situation? I feel like my usual version of taking the high ground is actually harming Wife (even if she never knows about it).
Everyone involved in this is in their late 50s or older, so these are all full-ass adults.
So two longtime friends of mine are getting divorced, Husband and Wife. Husband was originally my friend before he ever met Wife, but that distinction has certainly felt irrelevant as literal decades have passed during their marriage, and I have always been friendly with both of them. Both of them separately called me to tell me their marriage was ending, and they both told versions of the same story: Husband felt done with the marriage; Husband is driving the whole thing; Wife was blindsided. The tiniest nuances between their stories are re: how long Husband felt that the relationship was over, and whether Wife should or shouldn't have seen this coming.
I separately socialized with each of them, and they each wanted to talk through what was going on. They're clearly both still very immersed in processing what's happened, even Husband, who is driving this whole thing. From my outside perspective, knowing them both, I think the Husband is going through a mid-life (or later) crisis, is chasing after his lost youth, and is making a big mistake. (But I kept that to myself, I promise!)
A few months went by, the divorce is in progress, they're living in separate households. And someone in our extended social circle says to me, "I bet this is all Wife's fault. Maybe she was having an affair." My response was completely noncommittal/non-gossipy: "This is sad for everyone, I'm sorry to see the relationship end, I hope it all gets resolved amicably, etc." I did not engage in any details, and changed the subject.
End of story...except that now another few months went by and I had a second completely unrelated person basically offering up the same theory: it's Wife who drove this, she was probably done with the relationship, etc.
This weekend I'm getting together with a bunch of people in this social circle, including both those gossipers. What should I say/do if the subject comes up again? I will certainly not bring it up on my own, but I'd like something to say if it happens. I know I could say "Let's not talk about their reasons" but also I want to defend Wife, who seems to be getting the villain edit in our circles. So is there an ethical way to respond in this situation? I feel like my usual version of taking the high ground is actually harming Wife (even if she never knows about it).
"Frankly, we all need to stay out of it and let them work it out. Jane, these canapés you made are divine!"
posted by SageTrail at 5:08 PM on May 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by SageTrail at 5:08 PM on May 26, 2023 [6 favorites]
Best answer: I think you can go a bit further in your reply: "I'm not sure where you got your information from, but I've heard both sides of this, and neither person has mentioned this 'affair' that you speak of. This is an unhappy event, and we shouldn't gossip about it. [change subject here...]"
posted by hydra77 at 5:33 PM on May 26, 2023 [87 favorites]
posted by hydra77 at 5:33 PM on May 26, 2023 [87 favorites]
I would be tempted to be just a little confrontational and say something like:
"Nothing Husband or Wife has said to me suggested that an affair was involved in this divorce. Do you know for a fact that Wife was having an affair?"
You will get some kind of splitting back and then say
"In that case, let's respect Husband and Wife's privacy and stop spreading false rumors about their private lives."
I put the part about "nothing they said" as a way to inject the truth - as far as you know, no one was having an affair. (If you think husband might be then leave that part out.) You can always start by just asking if they are sharing facts or just speculation. If you leave that part in and people ask you "well what did they say to you" and you can simply reply "I'm taking my own advice and respecting their privacy. Let's talk about something else"
Even if there was an affair, it would still be gossip to share it with others who don't need to know. The rules on sharing is that it should be both true and also either kind or helpful. Sharing an accomplishment is true and kind. Sharing someone is untrustworthy to someone considering working with them is true and helpful. Sharing about someone's affair unless there is a compelling reason for the other person to know is gossip and not right, even if it is true.
posted by metahawk at 5:34 PM on May 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
"Nothing Husband or Wife has said to me suggested that an affair was involved in this divorce. Do you know for a fact that Wife was having an affair?"
You will get some kind of splitting back and then say
"In that case, let's respect Husband and Wife's privacy and stop spreading false rumors about their private lives."
I put the part about "nothing they said" as a way to inject the truth - as far as you know, no one was having an affair. (If you think husband might be then leave that part out.) You can always start by just asking if they are sharing facts or just speculation. If you leave that part in and people ask you "well what did they say to you" and you can simply reply "I'm taking my own advice and respecting their privacy. Let's talk about something else"
Even if there was an affair, it would still be gossip to share it with others who don't need to know. The rules on sharing is that it should be both true and also either kind or helpful. Sharing an accomplishment is true and kind. Sharing someone is untrustworthy to someone considering working with them is true and helpful. Sharing about someone's affair unless there is a compelling reason for the other person to know is gossip and not right, even if it is true.
posted by metahawk at 5:34 PM on May 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
I'm sorry you're having to deal with it! This gossip speaks to the character of the mutual friends who are speculating in unkind ways. I'm not saying it's all bad but it's crappy of them. It's totally possible for people to get divorced, even acrimoniously, and for people to be supportive instead of snarky. I'm glad and impressed that you are able to be kind to both friends and not feed the gossip. That speaks to YOUR character! I agree with the great advice and phrasing by muddgirl and SageTrail. While wouldn't say anything more, hydra77's suggestion is a good possibility if you're so inclinded. metahawk takes it to another level, yes! If you want simple, just a "I am friends with both and I want to support them both in this hard time. I think it's unkind to speculate or assume the worst. If you are really concerned, you could reach out and speak to each directly." That should hopefully shut them down but some people are brazen.
posted by smorgasbord at 5:36 PM on May 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by smorgasbord at 5:36 PM on May 26, 2023 [7 favorites]
Best answer: When someone says something utterly ridiculous, people people just shut it down and correct it without thinking further, or even attempting to argue much - "Is Laos part of Europe right?" "What? No, it's in South East Asia".
"Joe drives formula one cars" "No, you must be thinking of someone else".
Evasively changing the topic does kinda suggest it's within the realm of possibility.
You've heard from both of them, they're in agreement, you wouldn't be taking sides to call out malicious untruths quite bluntly, as in the same kind of, 'you must be confused' way - "What? No, I've heard from both of them and that's not true at all." and *then* continuing with, obviously their divorce is their business.
Things that both sides of a couple are agreeing on, aren't things that should put you in conflict with either of them just because other people have got that confused.
posted by Elysum at 5:39 PM on May 26, 2023 [31 favorites]
"Joe drives formula one cars" "No, you must be thinking of someone else".
Evasively changing the topic does kinda suggest it's within the realm of possibility.
You've heard from both of them, they're in agreement, you wouldn't be taking sides to call out malicious untruths quite bluntly, as in the same kind of, 'you must be confused' way - "What? No, I've heard from both of them and that's not true at all." and *then* continuing with, obviously their divorce is their business.
Things that both sides of a couple are agreeing on, aren't things that should put you in conflict with either of them just because other people have got that confused.
posted by Elysum at 5:39 PM on May 26, 2023 [31 favorites]
From my own perspective, I don't think that simply shutting down the topic is enough. I think that the gossip needs to be called out as hurtful and unfounded, because otherwise you've stopped the gossip while you're around but haven't done anything to counter it. If they know you're close to the couple, they might even take avoiding the topic as confirmation.
I like hydra77's reply, which doesn't include any details shared in confidence but is still clear that the accusations are untrue and also is clear that gossiping about the divorce is wrong.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 5:41 PM on May 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
I like hydra77's reply, which doesn't include any details shared in confidence but is still clear that the accusations are untrue and also is clear that gossiping about the divorce is wrong.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 5:41 PM on May 26, 2023 [3 favorites]
Huh, that's not what I heard. No further explination given.
Either way, divorces tend to bring up lots of gossip unfortunately. Don't engage other than really neutral statements that support the couple. These things will wane over time, and friendships will resettle in a different configuration bc it is very hard to stay friends with people who are determined to turn a divorce into a soap opera. When people change and just aren't interested in that marriage anymore (sometimes).
posted by AlexiaSky at 5:45 PM on May 26, 2023
Either way, divorces tend to bring up lots of gossip unfortunately. Don't engage other than really neutral statements that support the couple. These things will wane over time, and friendships will resettle in a different configuration bc it is very hard to stay friends with people who are determined to turn a divorce into a soap opera. When people change and just aren't interested in that marriage anymore (sometimes).
posted by AlexiaSky at 5:45 PM on May 26, 2023
“Neither of them has said anything like that to me” is probably the best thing to go with, as someone else may really have more information than you do.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:40 PM on May 26, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:40 PM on May 26, 2023 [9 favorites]
Ugh, people really suck sometimes.
Like others, I'd be tempted to say something along the lines of "Where is that coming from? I've talked to both of them and neither of them are saying anything like that."
If you think the gossipers might give a crap, you could add "They would both be really hurt if that story ever got back to them."
posted by rpfields at 8:59 PM on May 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
Like others, I'd be tempted to say something along the lines of "Where is that coming from? I've talked to both of them and neither of them are saying anything like that."
If you think the gossipers might give a crap, you could add "They would both be really hurt if that story ever got back to them."
posted by rpfields at 8:59 PM on May 26, 2023 [10 favorites]
I'm quite sad that W and H are splitting up, have spoken with both of them, and the suggestion that either was unfaithful is not accurate. I think such speculation can only cause trouble.
response.
Why would you think one of them had an affair?
It's possible one or both of them had an affair. it's no one's business, in any case. it's hard for Husband & Wife to maintain friendships and friend groups, in my experience. Thanks for not adding fuel to this dumpster fire.
posted by theora55 at 9:49 PM on May 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
response.
Why would you think one of them had an affair?
It's possible one or both of them had an affair. it's no one's business, in any case. it's hard for Husband & Wife to maintain friendships and friend groups, in my experience. Thanks for not adding fuel to this dumpster fire.
posted by theora55 at 9:49 PM on May 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
I vote for "why do you think that?" followed up with "both of them have talked to me and neither one of them mentioned anything like that; I don't think that's true."
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:56 PM on May 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:56 PM on May 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't really get why the moral high ground doesn't allow you to set matters straight. If someone was accused of a terrible crime would you refuse to comment, or would you defend them? People live and die on their reputation. Letting it be damaged is not morally good.
"I've talked to both of them and it's definitely him. "
Why should she suffer because ... I'm not entirely sure why.
But I honestly don't know what's wrong with, "He's having a midlife crisis and he'll regret this."
I've seen a lot of people do a lot of stupid things with their lives, and while saying something very often has little effect, saying nothing never has any at all.
posted by AugustusCrunch at 11:27 PM on May 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
"I've talked to both of them and it's definitely him. "
Why should she suffer because ... I'm not entirely sure why.
But I honestly don't know what's wrong with, "He's having a midlife crisis and he'll regret this."
I've seen a lot of people do a lot of stupid things with their lives, and while saying something very often has little effect, saying nothing never has any at all.
posted by AugustusCrunch at 11:27 PM on May 26, 2023 [8 favorites]
Best answer: I think something like “Nobody's said anything like that to me” is actually not very strong, because it only says that you haven't been told about it, not that you have been told things that contradict it. I'd go with something like "I've talked with both of them multiple times as this has been unfolding and I don't feel comfortable sharing details about their private lives but based on everything I've heard from both of them you're completely wrong (and it's really not okay to just make up stories on your own like that)."
posted by trig at 1:33 AM on May 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by trig at 1:33 AM on May 27, 2023 [6 favorites]
hydra77's reply is the way to go with this. I agree with the comments here saying that the gossip needs to be addressed directly as hurtful or it'll continue to fester. You may need to reiterate this point as much as you can, so be prepared for it to get slightly confrontational. If you make your stance clear that you won't tolerate it as a close friend and authority on the situation, they'll likely shut up and (hopefully) feel ashamed of themselves. Even if it only shuts them down in front of you, at least they'll be less likely to talk about it in group gatherings.
posted by fight or flight at 3:53 AM on May 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by fight or flight at 3:53 AM on May 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
I agree with everyone who has advocated for a strong shut this down response. I'd further suggest that within a social group, a good phrasing for shutting it down can be to start with something like "Wow, I'm really surprised at you/that you would say such a thing." It may not work, but I think the most effective way to shame someone into better behaviour is to affirm that you think of them as someone who generally would behave better.
I also would not address the question of anyone involved having an affair, as I think the important behaviour norm to invoke is: "These people that we care about are going through something painful and the right thing for us to do is to be supportive and caring to them both. Speculating about who may have done what is hurtful and not supportive and caring. We can be better than that."
posted by Rhedyn at 4:13 AM on May 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
I also would not address the question of anyone involved having an affair, as I think the important behaviour norm to invoke is: "These people that we care about are going through something painful and the right thing for us to do is to be supportive and caring to them both. Speculating about who may have done what is hurtful and not supportive and caring. We can be better than that."
posted by Rhedyn at 4:13 AM on May 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
I agree, if you want your social mores to not include gossip, then you should be firm - you might add to hydra77's script "And if one of them told you this in confidence, you should be keeping it in confidence, not gossiping about it." You might also point out that when people who have been together for decades divorce, it's never really about one thing.
posted by coffeecat at 8:07 AM on May 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by coffeecat at 8:07 AM on May 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
The tiniest nuances between their stories are re: how long Husband felt that the relationship was over, and whether Wife should or shouldn't have seen this coming.
holy shit that's not a nuance much less a tiny one.
but anyway, if "Wife" found out you sat by listening and shrugging noncommittally when you heard people say awful and, to your knowledge, untrue things about her, do you think she would forgive you or continue to be your friend? I put this as a question not a statement because while I can't imagine the answer being Yes, people in this world are always doing things I couldn't have imagined.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:21 AM on May 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
holy shit that's not a nuance much less a tiny one.
but anyway, if "Wife" found out you sat by listening and shrugging noncommittally when you heard people say awful and, to your knowledge, untrue things about her, do you think she would forgive you or continue to be your friend? I put this as a question not a statement because while I can't imagine the answer being Yes, people in this world are always doing things I couldn't have imagined.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:21 AM on May 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
if "Wife" found out you sat by listening and shrugging noncommittally when you heard people say awful and, to your knowledge, untrue things about her, do you think she would forgive you or continue to be your friend?
Contradicting people would place friends in the position of taking sides in public, something I absolutely refused to do during my divorce. I vastly preferred keeping friends from being drawn into the maelstrom.
It probably helped that I was also keeping silent on everything.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:45 AM on May 27, 2023
Contradicting people would place friends in the position of taking sides in public, something I absolutely refused to do during my divorce. I vastly preferred keeping friends from being drawn into the maelstrom.
It probably helped that I was also keeping silent on everything.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 11:45 AM on May 27, 2023
Yeah, please don’t just change the subject after saying something like “Well, we shouldn’t gossip about this.” Honestly, that’s an awful response. All that does is make it sound like what they’re saying is true, and it will just add fuel to the fire. If you know that what they’re saying is untrue, for heaven’s sake say so. You don’t have to give details, but just admonishing people not to gossip and then saying, “Oh look, ducks!” will just make then gossip harder.
posted by holborne at 12:32 PM on May 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by holborne at 12:32 PM on May 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
Another vote for hydra77. Shut it down without opening the door to more thoughts about who said what to who. Which you can assume the worst gossips will use a starting point when you're not around.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 1:41 PM on May 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Lesser Shrew at 1:41 PM on May 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
I’m not the most tactful, and I’d probably straight up say ‘That’s a terrible thing to say, please let’s not talk about it’. And if it makes that person feel bad, good, maybe they won’t say that shot any more.
posted by bq at 2:30 PM on May 28, 2023
posted by bq at 2:30 PM on May 28, 2023
I had a similar situation; knew the Husband longer than the Wife. Theirs was a years long marital destruction, some of which I witnessed in the form of verbal abuse by Husband to Wife. Even after their divorce, they were forced to remain in the same house until he could refinance it and buy out her half.
He and I still share the same circle of friends. And he would badmouth her to everyone...and it really sickened me. I WITNESSED him yelling and degrading her, in public, in front of their kids and he kept making her sound like she was dragging the divorce out.
So, in private conversations with our circle, if the subject came up about how "awful" Wife was...I simply said what I had witnessed and what I knew was a fact. I did not want her to be blamed solely for the divorce. (She and I rarely communicate now, though he and I still do).
There's two sides to every divorce, and the truth is somewhere in the middle, but that doesn't make it okay to make one person a speculative scapegoat.
posted by annieb at 5:58 PM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
He and I still share the same circle of friends. And he would badmouth her to everyone...and it really sickened me. I WITNESSED him yelling and degrading her, in public, in front of their kids and he kept making her sound like she was dragging the divorce out.
So, in private conversations with our circle, if the subject came up about how "awful" Wife was...I simply said what I had witnessed and what I knew was a fact. I did not want her to be blamed solely for the divorce. (She and I rarely communicate now, though he and I still do).
There's two sides to every divorce, and the truth is somewhere in the middle, but that doesn't make it okay to make one person a speculative scapegoat.
posted by annieb at 5:58 PM on May 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I appreciate the thoughtful answers. I highlighted the ones that spoke to me the most. How it actually played out: through a weird twist of fate, Wife was part of the socializing last weekend. And though the subject of the divorce didn't directly come up, she made clear allusions to both her pain, and to her gratitude for those who have stuck by her after she was blindsided. Her sincerity was so profoundly evident that I can't imagine anybody in this circle speculating about her part in this again. (At least I hope!)
posted by BlahLaLa at 1:52 PM on May 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by BlahLaLa at 1:52 PM on May 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
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These people have decided for whatever reason that they won't be friends with the wife any more, they feel they have to take the husband's "side" even when no side exists.
posted by muddgirl at 5:06 PM on May 26, 2023 [18 favorites]