Cognitive dissonance about my marriage, what is the reality?
February 24, 2022 2:32 PM Subscribe
I'm back after a long hiatus with basically the same question but the context is pretty different. Can you please tell me if my concerns are reasonable and if there is anything I can do to stop my partner's invalidating behavior? Am I correct that I have done all I can and I need to give up? This is very long but I don't want to threadsit later and hope I am giving enough detail that you can offer your point of view with some measure of confidence.
If you don't want to read the linked post from May 2018, my husband kept a journal of incidents to help him decide if I had BPD, so he said. He believes that I push him away after we become close. From my perspective things are good and then something happens that bothers me and I'm not a conflict avoidant person so I don't avoid trying to address it. I don't push him away but he doesn't like conflict so he wants to move away from the conversation, and I guess both of those feel like the same thing to him for reasons I don't understand. He can't see that it could possibly feel on his end like I'm pushing him away when he is choosing to withdraw because he no longer enjoys the environment himself. Unfortunately an aspect of the original Op situation just happened and I just need someone to help me understand what is happening here because I don't know anymore.
The Child isn't a baby now, and is much more self sufficient. Husband does much more of the chores, mostly without needing much prompting. He lets me sleep in both weekend days because he can take naps easily and I can't. We have gotten along very well, especially since our last family vacation. He makes me breakfast in bed. He tries to meet the needs I communicate. We have had date nights. His gift to me for Valentine's Day was a new version of my wedding ring which got ruined years ago, and we saw this as a recommitment as we got through a lot of rough waters together. Finally it looked like things were becoming clear and healthy. I have felt loved and supported and he has too, based on his feedback.
But lately I am realizing that he really did gaslight me, quite severely, for a long time. And that's made me angry. I have not acted out my anger but I have told him the situation is bothering me and that I believe anyone with a conscience would feel awful for doing that to their spouse and would make it their priority to balance things somehow. I assumed he did not do it intentionally so I stuck around and wanted him to make amends.
I say he gaslighted me because he convinced me our relationship issues were basically all my fault. He kept hammering me with this BPD story until I started to believe him. I knew I had trauma and I knew I wanted a healthy marriage and to do my best for my child before I give up, so I set about getting meds, going back to therapy, working on myself, being open to change in couples counseling, trying to give the benefit of the doubt. As I got healthier he seemed to treat me worse which was confusing. This was upsetting but I figured it was my karma for all the terrible things he said I've done and took it on the chin. For about a year I put up with really intense anger issues from him that got physical a couple of times (child was never around when we had those types of conflicts). He didn't hit me but would sling all the stuff on the table to the ground, knock over chairs on his way out of the room, etc. The couple of times I felt physically intimidated he seemed to minimize my fears which really bothered me. But I wanted things to work and figured this is his detoxing from me being so awful so I put up with it. Somehow within the last year, as he tells it, he realized I really did change and had started to treat me better because he feels safe.
I say I feel gaslighted because I made all the changes he demanded and implied were the problems interfering in our relationship and our communication but he's still not communicating well. He's not listening openly or trying to problem solve together. Anything less than sweeping everything under the rug at all times causes problems, but he made it sound like once I fixed what was wrong with me we would be able to be happy together (and grown up relationships require some kind of meaningful communication to make them happy ones don't they?).
I have continued to want meaningful dialogue, constructive conflict resolution, mutual effort to take responsibility for ourselves. My partner is still conflict avoidant but has worked to not storm off whenever he gets uncomfortable. He also to some extent has been managing his own mental health issues better and trying to manage his ADHD symptoms.
I learned to choose my battles. To express more appreciation. To be careful how I say things and to monitor myself for unfounded assumptions. To wait and not bring up a problem when I am first heated about it.
So it's not perfect and there's things that are still fairly unhealthy but on balance we have worked hard to achieve a healthier space as two imperfect people with mental illness and neurodivergent issues.
But last night it all came crashing down and that's why I'm back. He has severe ADHD which basically means that everyone he isn't used to sees his 100% self, and his brain is used to me so the most I see is 60-70%. I'm not novel or interesting and he does his best to be kind, loving and attentive, but it's not the same as the way he interacts with people that still have that novelty appeal. I mostly cope with this fine, except when I am reminded of the contrast. Like I see how quickly he does a favor for someone and remember that I often have to prompt and remind multiple times. I know it's not intentional but it's still hard to cope with knowing your spouse just doesn't find you interesting. So I tried to talk to him about this. I did not start aggressively. It was clear to me in the conversation he was annoyed with me for having a problem to discuss but wasn't afraid. I worked to be open minded, charitable, chose my words mindfully. And he was still the most invalidating person I've ever met. A friend told me that they think it's due to something called RSD. This is really upsetting to me because he told me I was the reason our communication was bad. I was the reason things never get resolved. I was the reason things fall apart. But I changed all the things he complained about. And he still won't show up for a healthy dialogue about my needs no matter how gently I attempt to have it. I find this unfair. And infuriating that he pawned everything off on me.
But more importantly, last night he showed me the same pattern in my original post. No he isn't keeping a journal about my behavior, at least not to my knowledge. But he decided that the reason I was upset with him was because we had an emotionally open, meaningful conversation earlier that day, and therefore me saying I'm having a hard time coping with the contrast between how he treats outsiders who still have that novelty and how he treats me is just a smokescreen and my agenda is really to push him away.
He wasn't able to hear that he is wrong, and that I am in a better position to know why I'm upset than he is. I told him it's toxic to adopt that position. It's presumptuous and paternalistic and makes productive resolution impossible because he won't make space for me to be a human and a peer. And that it prolongs our problems because things cannot be resolved if he cannot accept that I am correctly identifying what the issue is on my end and how to help make it better.
He just says he sees the pattern and he is just commenting on the pattern. I point out there is something called confirmation bias. And this is part and parcel of my most difficult struggle with him. He is highly defensive and hears criticism where none exists. He admits this and admits he was like that before we met as a consequence of undiagnosed ADHD causing him to mess up a lot of things in his life. He is also very invalidating. Whenever I have an issue, if it's not something he could predict ahead of time, he can be a jerk. He denies, justifies, minimizes, blame shifts frequently. Talks over me as if in silencing me he is neutralizing my need for change. He will take the position that I have to prove the validity of my feelings and if he wouldn't feel the same way in the same circumstances, he doesn't believe he should do anything helpful about it. Ditto if he thinks what I want to discuss is too minor to need discussion. If he thinks I "should have" let it go, then he will not cooperate with a constructive conversation about what is bothering me and why. If he doesn't immediately understand my position, he doesn't become curious to understand better. He just makes me wrong.
I've tried to be patient because I get that defensiveness is hard to overcome, and again he made me think everything was my fault so I thought the least I can do is hold space while he deals with himself. But he isn't really doing that. He's not taking responsibility. He's not listening to me explain how his approach to things works against marital Harmony. He gives pat answers and goes through the motions.
He says he gives me what I say I want but I won't take it but what he means is that he says formulaic things in a contemptuous tone of voice (I'm sorry you are upset that I didn't keep a promise that I made to you, I'm sure that's really difficult for you") then faults me for not accepting his apology or repair efforts because he "didn't hold his mouth right." I try to explain that it's common for humans to have trouble believing a message communicated incongruently. And that if it doesn't seem heartfelt then it's not clear he's felt any empathy or contrition and it's hard to feel like he is actually repairing the situation without those things. Sometimes when I am asking for accountability he becomes so stubborn and walked off that I end up wondering if he is a sociopath or a narcissist. Occasionally I've even told him that I can't tell, and that's scary for me. He says he gets this way because he is afraid of his own shame.
At the end of the day I realize this still sounds horrible and it's probably best to end it even though we actually parent quite well together and our child will see my husband very little if we do part ways. But I also see signs of emotional abuse from him, signs of narcissistic abuse, and I don't know that I think he is "a narcissist" but certainly he has hurt me and brainwashed me so that I don't know what's true. I don't know if I'm crazy like he says and just don't see it, or I have issues like anyone but I've managed them pretty well and he's pushing that on me anyway so he can play victim or avoid his own work, if he's accidentally abusing me or doing it more strategically.
Part of why I stayed is believing it was me, and I wanted to be better and then give him a healthier dynamic so he could do some personal healing from the terrible things I've done. But I also wonder how much of my awful behavior was a consequence of trying to have healthy relationship conversation with someone that is allergic to accountability. And reacting to invalidating behavior. I can't tell if I am a victim of covert abuse, or he's a victim of my overt abuse, or if it's both, or what. And I find it hard to move forward with separation not knowing the truth. I do not believe he can give it to me. I don't believe he is seeing clearly either. He is very deeply committed to discrediting any opinions that call for accountability from him. I believe he really does see himself as a victim. But is he truly a victim to me or is that part of his abusiveness that he sees it that way?
I've been reading a lot (and crying and missing work and guzzling a beer so I can put on a happy face around the kid) and trying to find concrete, solid things to hold in my head. Things that can't be manipulated. That I can't erase with self doubt. One thing I've found is the idea that a core feature of emotional abuse is lack of responsibility. And I look back and see where I've taken responsibility for myself, for any bad behavior I had, and did the hard work of changing. I see where he's done some work too but never on his own. Only responding to external pressure. In a dialogue about some issue he will never proactively acknowledge bad behavior. He doesn't apologize unless I point out that an apology would be appropriate. He claims that this deficit is due to possible autism. I also think I'm probably autistic and I am capable of recognizing when an apology is expected. And, when the stakes are not as high for his ego, apology is forthcoming. It's when it requires humility or the inner process that creates feelings of remorse that he is so stubborn about it. In those moments he doesn't appear oblivious or confused. He appears frustrated, annoyed or disdainful. I don't think that's what autistic related social difficulties look like but maybe it is. Who knows.
So I'm writing to all of you internet strangers as a victim of possible "perspecticide" who no longer trusts my own perception and needs an outsider to tell me if I am seeing reality accurately.
When I realized I had let him distort my reality that much, I got mad, and started setting boundaries. It helps me some, but for this kind of thing I really have no idea what's happening. Ending the relationship is likely but I need to understand who is abusing who here. I hope I've given enough context that you can weigh in on that.
And I also probably need someone to point out that if 3-4 years of effort, personal growth and therapy have not gotten us to a place where he is able to see that maybe his assumptions about my patterns are wrong, and maybe I'm an actual real person with actual self awareness who can accurately identify my felt needs rather than this reflection of his confirmation bias with no agency, then nothing I do can ever help.
I don't want to believe that because everything else between us has gotten so much better. But the fact remains that things have gotten so much better mostly bc I stopped bringing things up. There's fewer breaks because there's fewer requests to receive care, accountability or change of some kind. He has admonished me before for causing problems between us and I have said, rather fed up, that I approach communication the right way to avoid it causing a problem. He actually will acknowledge that is true, I do things the right way, but somehow because things get crappy, it's still my fault. He doesn't see an option being to learn the skills he is missing that would help him respond appropriately to these types of requests. To him, he feels icky bc of something I say therefore I'm causing a problem and the solution is to prevent me from being able to communicate effectively. Is that a common way that people conceptualize a situation like this? Or is that kind of weirdly abdicating responsibility for himself? I feel like this is a weird way to see the situation but I don't know if that's fair. Could it be a consequence of autism or alexithymia that he sees it like that rather than see a goal of learning to have this type of conversation instead of breaking everything then blaming me for doing so?
Sorry if this seems incoherent. I don't know what reality is and it's hard not not sound incoherent when you aren't sure what is true.
If you don't want to read the linked post from May 2018, my husband kept a journal of incidents to help him decide if I had BPD, so he said. He believes that I push him away after we become close. From my perspective things are good and then something happens that bothers me and I'm not a conflict avoidant person so I don't avoid trying to address it. I don't push him away but he doesn't like conflict so he wants to move away from the conversation, and I guess both of those feel like the same thing to him for reasons I don't understand. He can't see that it could possibly feel on his end like I'm pushing him away when he is choosing to withdraw because he no longer enjoys the environment himself. Unfortunately an aspect of the original Op situation just happened and I just need someone to help me understand what is happening here because I don't know anymore.
The Child isn't a baby now, and is much more self sufficient. Husband does much more of the chores, mostly without needing much prompting. He lets me sleep in both weekend days because he can take naps easily and I can't. We have gotten along very well, especially since our last family vacation. He makes me breakfast in bed. He tries to meet the needs I communicate. We have had date nights. His gift to me for Valentine's Day was a new version of my wedding ring which got ruined years ago, and we saw this as a recommitment as we got through a lot of rough waters together. Finally it looked like things were becoming clear and healthy. I have felt loved and supported and he has too, based on his feedback.
But lately I am realizing that he really did gaslight me, quite severely, for a long time. And that's made me angry. I have not acted out my anger but I have told him the situation is bothering me and that I believe anyone with a conscience would feel awful for doing that to their spouse and would make it their priority to balance things somehow. I assumed he did not do it intentionally so I stuck around and wanted him to make amends.
I say he gaslighted me because he convinced me our relationship issues were basically all my fault. He kept hammering me with this BPD story until I started to believe him. I knew I had trauma and I knew I wanted a healthy marriage and to do my best for my child before I give up, so I set about getting meds, going back to therapy, working on myself, being open to change in couples counseling, trying to give the benefit of the doubt. As I got healthier he seemed to treat me worse which was confusing. This was upsetting but I figured it was my karma for all the terrible things he said I've done and took it on the chin. For about a year I put up with really intense anger issues from him that got physical a couple of times (child was never around when we had those types of conflicts). He didn't hit me but would sling all the stuff on the table to the ground, knock over chairs on his way out of the room, etc. The couple of times I felt physically intimidated he seemed to minimize my fears which really bothered me. But I wanted things to work and figured this is his detoxing from me being so awful so I put up with it. Somehow within the last year, as he tells it, he realized I really did change and had started to treat me better because he feels safe.
I say I feel gaslighted because I made all the changes he demanded and implied were the problems interfering in our relationship and our communication but he's still not communicating well. He's not listening openly or trying to problem solve together. Anything less than sweeping everything under the rug at all times causes problems, but he made it sound like once I fixed what was wrong with me we would be able to be happy together (and grown up relationships require some kind of meaningful communication to make them happy ones don't they?).
I have continued to want meaningful dialogue, constructive conflict resolution, mutual effort to take responsibility for ourselves. My partner is still conflict avoidant but has worked to not storm off whenever he gets uncomfortable. He also to some extent has been managing his own mental health issues better and trying to manage his ADHD symptoms.
I learned to choose my battles. To express more appreciation. To be careful how I say things and to monitor myself for unfounded assumptions. To wait and not bring up a problem when I am first heated about it.
So it's not perfect and there's things that are still fairly unhealthy but on balance we have worked hard to achieve a healthier space as two imperfect people with mental illness and neurodivergent issues.
But last night it all came crashing down and that's why I'm back. He has severe ADHD which basically means that everyone he isn't used to sees his 100% self, and his brain is used to me so the most I see is 60-70%. I'm not novel or interesting and he does his best to be kind, loving and attentive, but it's not the same as the way he interacts with people that still have that novelty appeal. I mostly cope with this fine, except when I am reminded of the contrast. Like I see how quickly he does a favor for someone and remember that I often have to prompt and remind multiple times. I know it's not intentional but it's still hard to cope with knowing your spouse just doesn't find you interesting. So I tried to talk to him about this. I did not start aggressively. It was clear to me in the conversation he was annoyed with me for having a problem to discuss but wasn't afraid. I worked to be open minded, charitable, chose my words mindfully. And he was still the most invalidating person I've ever met. A friend told me that they think it's due to something called RSD. This is really upsetting to me because he told me I was the reason our communication was bad. I was the reason things never get resolved. I was the reason things fall apart. But I changed all the things he complained about. And he still won't show up for a healthy dialogue about my needs no matter how gently I attempt to have it. I find this unfair. And infuriating that he pawned everything off on me.
But more importantly, last night he showed me the same pattern in my original post. No he isn't keeping a journal about my behavior, at least not to my knowledge. But he decided that the reason I was upset with him was because we had an emotionally open, meaningful conversation earlier that day, and therefore me saying I'm having a hard time coping with the contrast between how he treats outsiders who still have that novelty and how he treats me is just a smokescreen and my agenda is really to push him away.
He wasn't able to hear that he is wrong, and that I am in a better position to know why I'm upset than he is. I told him it's toxic to adopt that position. It's presumptuous and paternalistic and makes productive resolution impossible because he won't make space for me to be a human and a peer. And that it prolongs our problems because things cannot be resolved if he cannot accept that I am correctly identifying what the issue is on my end and how to help make it better.
He just says he sees the pattern and he is just commenting on the pattern. I point out there is something called confirmation bias. And this is part and parcel of my most difficult struggle with him. He is highly defensive and hears criticism where none exists. He admits this and admits he was like that before we met as a consequence of undiagnosed ADHD causing him to mess up a lot of things in his life. He is also very invalidating. Whenever I have an issue, if it's not something he could predict ahead of time, he can be a jerk. He denies, justifies, minimizes, blame shifts frequently. Talks over me as if in silencing me he is neutralizing my need for change. He will take the position that I have to prove the validity of my feelings and if he wouldn't feel the same way in the same circumstances, he doesn't believe he should do anything helpful about it. Ditto if he thinks what I want to discuss is too minor to need discussion. If he thinks I "should have" let it go, then he will not cooperate with a constructive conversation about what is bothering me and why. If he doesn't immediately understand my position, he doesn't become curious to understand better. He just makes me wrong.
I've tried to be patient because I get that defensiveness is hard to overcome, and again he made me think everything was my fault so I thought the least I can do is hold space while he deals with himself. But he isn't really doing that. He's not taking responsibility. He's not listening to me explain how his approach to things works against marital Harmony. He gives pat answers and goes through the motions.
He says he gives me what I say I want but I won't take it but what he means is that he says formulaic things in a contemptuous tone of voice (I'm sorry you are upset that I didn't keep a promise that I made to you, I'm sure that's really difficult for you") then faults me for not accepting his apology or repair efforts because he "didn't hold his mouth right." I try to explain that it's common for humans to have trouble believing a message communicated incongruently. And that if it doesn't seem heartfelt then it's not clear he's felt any empathy or contrition and it's hard to feel like he is actually repairing the situation without those things. Sometimes when I am asking for accountability he becomes so stubborn and walked off that I end up wondering if he is a sociopath or a narcissist. Occasionally I've even told him that I can't tell, and that's scary for me. He says he gets this way because he is afraid of his own shame.
At the end of the day I realize this still sounds horrible and it's probably best to end it even though we actually parent quite well together and our child will see my husband very little if we do part ways. But I also see signs of emotional abuse from him, signs of narcissistic abuse, and I don't know that I think he is "a narcissist" but certainly he has hurt me and brainwashed me so that I don't know what's true. I don't know if I'm crazy like he says and just don't see it, or I have issues like anyone but I've managed them pretty well and he's pushing that on me anyway so he can play victim or avoid his own work, if he's accidentally abusing me or doing it more strategically.
Part of why I stayed is believing it was me, and I wanted to be better and then give him a healthier dynamic so he could do some personal healing from the terrible things I've done. But I also wonder how much of my awful behavior was a consequence of trying to have healthy relationship conversation with someone that is allergic to accountability. And reacting to invalidating behavior. I can't tell if I am a victim of covert abuse, or he's a victim of my overt abuse, or if it's both, or what. And I find it hard to move forward with separation not knowing the truth. I do not believe he can give it to me. I don't believe he is seeing clearly either. He is very deeply committed to discrediting any opinions that call for accountability from him. I believe he really does see himself as a victim. But is he truly a victim to me or is that part of his abusiveness that he sees it that way?
I've been reading a lot (and crying and missing work and guzzling a beer so I can put on a happy face around the kid) and trying to find concrete, solid things to hold in my head. Things that can't be manipulated. That I can't erase with self doubt. One thing I've found is the idea that a core feature of emotional abuse is lack of responsibility. And I look back and see where I've taken responsibility for myself, for any bad behavior I had, and did the hard work of changing. I see where he's done some work too but never on his own. Only responding to external pressure. In a dialogue about some issue he will never proactively acknowledge bad behavior. He doesn't apologize unless I point out that an apology would be appropriate. He claims that this deficit is due to possible autism. I also think I'm probably autistic and I am capable of recognizing when an apology is expected. And, when the stakes are not as high for his ego, apology is forthcoming. It's when it requires humility or the inner process that creates feelings of remorse that he is so stubborn about it. In those moments he doesn't appear oblivious or confused. He appears frustrated, annoyed or disdainful. I don't think that's what autistic related social difficulties look like but maybe it is. Who knows.
So I'm writing to all of you internet strangers as a victim of possible "perspecticide" who no longer trusts my own perception and needs an outsider to tell me if I am seeing reality accurately.
When I realized I had let him distort my reality that much, I got mad, and started setting boundaries. It helps me some, but for this kind of thing I really have no idea what's happening. Ending the relationship is likely but I need to understand who is abusing who here. I hope I've given enough context that you can weigh in on that.
And I also probably need someone to point out that if 3-4 years of effort, personal growth and therapy have not gotten us to a place where he is able to see that maybe his assumptions about my patterns are wrong, and maybe I'm an actual real person with actual self awareness who can accurately identify my felt needs rather than this reflection of his confirmation bias with no agency, then nothing I do can ever help.
I don't want to believe that because everything else between us has gotten so much better. But the fact remains that things have gotten so much better mostly bc I stopped bringing things up. There's fewer breaks because there's fewer requests to receive care, accountability or change of some kind. He has admonished me before for causing problems between us and I have said, rather fed up, that I approach communication the right way to avoid it causing a problem. He actually will acknowledge that is true, I do things the right way, but somehow because things get crappy, it's still my fault. He doesn't see an option being to learn the skills he is missing that would help him respond appropriately to these types of requests. To him, he feels icky bc of something I say therefore I'm causing a problem and the solution is to prevent me from being able to communicate effectively. Is that a common way that people conceptualize a situation like this? Or is that kind of weirdly abdicating responsibility for himself? I feel like this is a weird way to see the situation but I don't know if that's fair. Could it be a consequence of autism or alexithymia that he sees it like that rather than see a goal of learning to have this type of conversation instead of breaking everything then blaming me for doing so?
Sorry if this seems incoherent. I don't know what reality is and it's hard not not sound incoherent when you aren't sure what is true.
Being a single parent is hard, but what you're dealing with sounds a whole lot harder. If you forge out on your own, the adjustment will be tough, you may doubt your decision sometimes, but I'd bet beer that in a year or two your only regret will be not having left sooner. You'll be amazed how much better you feel, and how much more like yourself, when you're not dealing with this on a daily basis.
Oh, and get a good lawyer right now, the best you can afford.
posted by bighappyhairydog at 2:52 PM on February 24, 2022 [6 favorites]
Oh, and get a good lawyer right now, the best you can afford.
posted by bighappyhairydog at 2:52 PM on February 24, 2022 [6 favorites]
Best answer: I think the psychological diagnosing is really harmful here. It's very difficult to accurate diagnose someone with whom you have an intense relationship. People who do not have a lot of training are not great at diagnosing. I recommend you pay attention to how he behaves, and when he tries to analyze you or tell you how you feel, tell him you simply won't engage with that. I would like every minute and hour back that I spent trying to convince my ex- that I am the world expert on what's in my head, on how I feel, etc. This focus on diagnosing and explaining the why of behavior distracts form making progress to living together happily and having fun.
The keeping a diary to prove you have a shitty diagnosis? That would have been a dealbreaker for me. Borderline is a sketchy diagnosis and it was used cruelly and manipulative-ly. He can't/ won't admit to being wrong. He's still telling you how you feel. However. Things got a lot better, and you now have the emotional bandwidth to process and come to terms with the previous hurt and crap. A very good therapist might help. A change in focus to behavior and not getting in to the other person's head might help.
I suspect you actually know that the marriage is done, and are looking for an exit, but if you want to stay and make it work, I'd push back a lot harder on his crap, discuss it briefly, then tell him what you need, and what you can and can't do of what he needs. A relationship with someone who invalidates you like this sucks the joy out of life. Think about how it would be to live without him, compared to how it is now. Are you better off with him or without him?
posted by theora55 at 3:02 PM on February 24, 2022 [17 favorites]
The keeping a diary to prove you have a shitty diagnosis? That would have been a dealbreaker for me. Borderline is a sketchy diagnosis and it was used cruelly and manipulative-ly. He can't/ won't admit to being wrong. He's still telling you how you feel. However. Things got a lot better, and you now have the emotional bandwidth to process and come to terms with the previous hurt and crap. A very good therapist might help. A change in focus to behavior and not getting in to the other person's head might help.
I suspect you actually know that the marriage is done, and are looking for an exit, but if you want to stay and make it work, I'd push back a lot harder on his crap, discuss it briefly, then tell him what you need, and what you can and can't do of what he needs. A relationship with someone who invalidates you like this sucks the joy out of life. Think about how it would be to live without him, compared to how it is now. Are you better off with him or without him?
posted by theora55 at 3:02 PM on February 24, 2022 [17 favorites]
Best answer: You’re doing so much work on knowing yourself and showing up in your life. Now you can feel emotions like anger at past mistreatment, which is amazing. You have all the information you need inside yourself - whether we think you’re abusing him or he’s abusing you is immaterial. How you feel in your partnership is all you need to listen to. It’s okay if you aren’t done listening yet.
In the past it has helped me to read this piece: https://therumpus.net/2011/06/24/dear-sugar-the-rumpus-advice-column-77-the-truth-that-lives-there/
posted by nevernines at 3:03 PM on February 24, 2022 [11 favorites]
In the past it has helped me to read this piece: https://therumpus.net/2011/06/24/dear-sugar-the-rumpus-advice-column-77-the-truth-that-lives-there/
posted by nevernines at 3:03 PM on February 24, 2022 [11 favorites]
Best answer: In the days and weeks to come, you might find yourself doubting the validity of your feelings and your understanding of what's been going on. If you do, that won't mean that you need to stay in this marriage. Even if your husband is 100% right to say you have this pattern (unlikely but let's just say)... even if he's right that your having that pattern makes the marital issues "all your fault" (he's wrong but let's just say)... that doesn't make this marriage any better.
There is this wonderful Dear Sugar column where Cheryl Strayed advised letter writers that "wanting to leave is enough." She says, essentially, that you need to leave even if he's right about you. Go, even if it's all your fault. Go, even if he did everything right and he's good and kind and wonderful and perfect. "Go, because wanting to leave is enough."
I don't know, personally, if I would tell you that you NEED to leave. (TBH I think both of you would be very, very deeply helped by couples' therapy and individual therapy, if you are able to give this any more time and effort. You may not be able, and that's okay too.)
But I will say this: what you have here isn't even simply "wanting to leave" when everything is perfect. You've lost trust in your partner. HE has also struggled to trust you (nobody keeps that kind of journal if there is trust!). Your marriage is in very bad shape even if your husband's version of events is true. This is more than enough of a good reason to leave, even if you doubt your version.(Which you have no cause to doubt, really.)
posted by MiraK at 3:10 PM on February 24, 2022 [19 favorites]
There is this wonderful Dear Sugar column where Cheryl Strayed advised letter writers that "wanting to leave is enough." She says, essentially, that you need to leave even if he's right about you. Go, even if it's all your fault. Go, even if he did everything right and he's good and kind and wonderful and perfect. "Go, because wanting to leave is enough."
I don't know, personally, if I would tell you that you NEED to leave. (TBH I think both of you would be very, very deeply helped by couples' therapy and individual therapy, if you are able to give this any more time and effort. You may not be able, and that's okay too.)
But I will say this: what you have here isn't even simply "wanting to leave" when everything is perfect. You've lost trust in your partner. HE has also struggled to trust you (nobody keeps that kind of journal if there is trust!). Your marriage is in very bad shape even if your husband's version of events is true. This is more than enough of a good reason to leave, even if you doubt your version.(Which you have no cause to doubt, really.)
posted by MiraK at 3:10 PM on February 24, 2022 [19 favorites]
Are you in therapy at the moment with someone who can help you with all of this? Because I'd gently suggest that if you've asked 9 flavours of this question over the span of 5 years, all about this same relationship, and you're still in it and it's still this troubling, AskMe is possibly not giving you what you need to work this out.
posted by penguin pie at 3:12 PM on February 24, 2022 [34 favorites]
posted by penguin pie at 3:12 PM on February 24, 2022 [34 favorites]
I can't tell if I am a victim of covert abuse, or he's a victim of my overt abuse, or if it's both, or what.
This isn't a relevant question - all three answers are negative outcomes.
It doesn't matter whether "you're wrong" or "he's wrong" or "you're both wrong". In all three cases, someone is wrong. Even if you are entirely the party at fault here (which I disbelieve strongly), you are still coming to the conclusion that this relationship isn't working for you.
posted by saeculorum at 3:13 PM on February 24, 2022 [8 favorites]
This isn't a relevant question - all three answers are negative outcomes.
It doesn't matter whether "you're wrong" or "he's wrong" or "you're both wrong". In all three cases, someone is wrong. Even if you are entirely the party at fault here (which I disbelieve strongly), you are still coming to the conclusion that this relationship isn't working for you.
posted by saeculorum at 3:13 PM on February 24, 2022 [8 favorites]
Best answer: He sounds exhausting.
Focus on having clear boundaries. Know who you are, how you feel, what you want and why you do what you do, and leave it at that. If he’s the issue then he will self destruct once your boundaries are clear.
“You said This but what you REALLY mean is…”
“No honey. I meant This.”
“But I sensed that…”
“No honey. Look, I mean what I say. Believe me or not is your choice but I don’t see a need to debate it any longer.”
posted by St. Peepsburg at 3:40 PM on February 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
Focus on having clear boundaries. Know who you are, how you feel, what you want and why you do what you do, and leave it at that. If he’s the issue then he will self destruct once your boundaries are clear.
“You said This but what you REALLY mean is…”
“No honey. I meant This.”
“But I sensed that…”
“No honey. Look, I mean what I say. Believe me or not is your choice but I don’t see a need to debate it any longer.”
posted by St. Peepsburg at 3:40 PM on February 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
Honestly, I found a lot of your post hard to follow - but what is clear, is your spouse and you are not communicating well, and are often getting stuck on who is right or wrong. And it's clear this has been happening since 2018.
As already pointed out, sometimes it's best to leave a relationship even if nobody is a villain - if it's causing you more stress than it's giving you joy, then I'd talk to a lawyer about figuring out your options. None of us can know how much of the time between now and your last post has been stressful v. joyful, so I'll leave that to you to determine.
But I'll just say, since you pinpoint this part as where things started to crumble most recently:
But last night it all came crashing down and that's why I'm back. He has severe ADHD which basically means that everyone he isn't used to sees his 100% self, and his brain is used to me so the most I see is 60-70%. I'm not novel or interesting and he does his best to be kind, loving and attentive, but it's not the same as the way he interacts with people that still have that novelty appeal. I mostly cope with this fine, except when I am reminded of the contrast.
If my partner was annoyed at me because around him I'm often less "on" than when I'm around people I only occasionally see, and framed this as less the nature of intimacy and more that I am not as interested in him as I am in other people, well, I'd be pretty annoyed and hurt too. Does he not give you his 100% on date nights? You imply that he does. So, gently, perhaps that 100% simply isn't sustainable for him (as it true for many people), but something he can only provide in spurts. If his 60-70% isn't enough for you, that's totally valid - but I can see why the conversation went off the rails if you presented this somehow a personal snub against you.
But regardless, it's clear you're really, really, unhappy. And you've really, really tried with this relationship. I'd end it.
posted by coffeecat at 3:41 PM on February 24, 2022 [20 favorites]
As already pointed out, sometimes it's best to leave a relationship even if nobody is a villain - if it's causing you more stress than it's giving you joy, then I'd talk to a lawyer about figuring out your options. None of us can know how much of the time between now and your last post has been stressful v. joyful, so I'll leave that to you to determine.
But I'll just say, since you pinpoint this part as where things started to crumble most recently:
But last night it all came crashing down and that's why I'm back. He has severe ADHD which basically means that everyone he isn't used to sees his 100% self, and his brain is used to me so the most I see is 60-70%. I'm not novel or interesting and he does his best to be kind, loving and attentive, but it's not the same as the way he interacts with people that still have that novelty appeal. I mostly cope with this fine, except when I am reminded of the contrast.
If my partner was annoyed at me because around him I'm often less "on" than when I'm around people I only occasionally see, and framed this as less the nature of intimacy and more that I am not as interested in him as I am in other people, well, I'd be pretty annoyed and hurt too. Does he not give you his 100% on date nights? You imply that he does. So, gently, perhaps that 100% simply isn't sustainable for him (as it true for many people), but something he can only provide in spurts. If his 60-70% isn't enough for you, that's totally valid - but I can see why the conversation went off the rails if you presented this somehow a personal snub against you.
But regardless, it's clear you're really, really, unhappy. And you've really, really tried with this relationship. I'd end it.
posted by coffeecat at 3:41 PM on February 24, 2022 [20 favorites]
Best answer: Sometimes two people just cannot reach a functional communication dynamic. For what it's worth, it does sound from your description like he is deflecting and moving goalposts (maybe not out of any desire to abuse, but still out of an inability to meet you part of the way), and the resulting fallout on your side is trauma whether that's his intention or not.
I don't think you need to "solve" the mystery of what it is; I think it is time to move toward something that is going to be more workable for you, knowing that the cooperation you need isn't going to be forthcoming - you've tried to change your approach and your perspective and you're still not getting your needs met and you still feel like you're being harmed by the situation. That's enough.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:45 PM on February 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
I don't think you need to "solve" the mystery of what it is; I think it is time to move toward something that is going to be more workable for you, knowing that the cooperation you need isn't going to be forthcoming - you've tried to change your approach and your perspective and you're still not getting your needs met and you still feel like you're being harmed by the situation. That's enough.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:45 PM on February 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
Best answer: I hesitate to say this because I don't want to sound like I see you two as equivalent, but one thing that really stands out is that you both keep diagnosing each other and explaining behavior based on various confirmed or theoretical diagnoses, and that's besides the point and often harmful.
Does what his precise diagnosis is matter? You say you have a hard time moving forward without knowing the truth, but the truth that matters is that he doesn't meet your needs, isn't willing to consider them seriously, and prefers to counterattack. Whether that's due to adhd or rsd or narcissism or sociopathy or disorders that haven't even been defined yet, that's the situation. At this point, it also seems like a reasonable conclusion is that it isn't going to change.
Do you think you'd be happier without him? If so, then make whatever plans you need to leave safely.
posted by trig at 3:49 PM on February 24, 2022 [26 favorites]
Does what his precise diagnosis is matter? You say you have a hard time moving forward without knowing the truth, but the truth that matters is that he doesn't meet your needs, isn't willing to consider them seriously, and prefers to counterattack. Whether that's due to adhd or rsd or narcissism or sociopathy or disorders that haven't even been defined yet, that's the situation. At this point, it also seems like a reasonable conclusion is that it isn't going to change.
Do you think you'd be happier without him? If so, then make whatever plans you need to leave safely.
posted by trig at 3:49 PM on February 24, 2022 [26 favorites]
I read over the whole thing twice, and my impression is you two are NOT communicating properly, not then, not now. You want to talk, he wants to avoid talking.
He's basically "managing" his relationship with you like developing a coping mechanism for dealing with his symptoms. He definitely has a problem in the communications department. If he's blaming you for that, that's definitely on him. But that could be a part of his coping mechanism... by blaming someone else.
I guess my question to you is... Do you think he's doing that because he's INCAPABLE of taking responsibility? If so, then your path is clear.
If you think he's capable of taking responsibility and mean it, then the question is... Do you think he's worthy of you spending the effort? There are some who hold the position that you should NOT try to change the other person. But that's really up to you.
posted by kschang at 3:56 PM on February 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
He's basically "managing" his relationship with you like developing a coping mechanism for dealing with his symptoms. He definitely has a problem in the communications department. If he's blaming you for that, that's definitely on him. But that could be a part of his coping mechanism... by blaming someone else.
I guess my question to you is... Do you think he's doing that because he's INCAPABLE of taking responsibility? If so, then your path is clear.
If you think he's capable of taking responsibility and mean it, then the question is... Do you think he's worthy of you spending the effort? There are some who hold the position that you should NOT try to change the other person. But that's really up to you.
posted by kschang at 3:56 PM on February 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
This relationship is done. You've worked hard on it and on yourself and had some personal growth, and that's great. But at this point every day that passes is a day you could be working on moving on from the relationship and working on your new life. It sounds like you would be much happier and be able to find fulfillment you're not going to find in this marriage. I'm sorry. It sounds like you have done everything you can. Take solace in that.
posted by fiercecupcake at 4:09 PM on February 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by fiercecupcake at 4:09 PM on February 24, 2022 [7 favorites]
I have no idea who here is BPD, who is a narcissistic abuser, who isn’t, and I think there’s way too much armchair diagnoses going on in your relationship from people who like to use psychiatric labels to hurt each other.
None of that really matters anyway. What is important is that marriage just shouldn’t be this hard. Which is not to say you won’t have hard times but it shouldn’t be like this more often than not. If you’re constantly wondering why he’s doing doing this or that or trying to figure out strategies to shield you from emotional abuse…it’s time to call it.
Your feelings are legitimate, you two aren’t communicating well and you’ve both given therapy a red hot go, then unfortunately weaponised it so going back there isn’t really an option anymore so you know… it’s ok to say it’s not working and you’re better off apart. I’d focus now on separating and co parenting as amicably as you can then healing and moving forward with your life.
posted by Jubey at 4:12 PM on February 24, 2022 [27 favorites]
None of that really matters anyway. What is important is that marriage just shouldn’t be this hard. Which is not to say you won’t have hard times but it shouldn’t be like this more often than not. If you’re constantly wondering why he’s doing doing this or that or trying to figure out strategies to shield you from emotional abuse…it’s time to call it.
Your feelings are legitimate, you two aren’t communicating well and you’ve both given therapy a red hot go, then unfortunately weaponised it so going back there isn’t really an option anymore so you know… it’s ok to say it’s not working and you’re better off apart. I’d focus now on separating and co parenting as amicably as you can then healing and moving forward with your life.
posted by Jubey at 4:12 PM on February 24, 2022 [27 favorites]
A lot of good comments here already. One thing I'll add in the vein of moving away from focusing on mental health of either party is to suggest reading John Gottman's research on couples and the concept of bids for affection. Essentially, do you each turn toward each other vs away when one partner makes an overture for affection:
"As part of his research, Dr. John Gottman conducted a study with newlyweds, then followed up with them six years later. Many of the couples remained together. Many divorced. The couples that stayed married were much better at one thing: the third level of the Sound Relationship House, Turn Towards Instead of Away. At the six-year follow-up, couples that stayed married turned towards one another 86% of the time. Couples that divorced averaged only 33% of the time."
It seems like there are some fundamental mismatches here on how each of you bid for affection, and neither of you feel like your partner is turning towards you enough. In fact, at this point it sounds like the primary way you bid for affection from your husband - talking about your feelings - is now viewed as criticism by him. Sadly, I don't see how this gets better if you stay together. Your views and needs are in complete conflict with each other and it's not likely either of you can change your core needs.
I think you'd both be happier long term if you separated and found partners who are more like minded. If either party needs to wildly adapt their personality to make a relationship harmonious, that is not sustainable.
posted by amycup at 4:28 PM on February 24, 2022 [5 favorites]
"As part of his research, Dr. John Gottman conducted a study with newlyweds, then followed up with them six years later. Many of the couples remained together. Many divorced. The couples that stayed married were much better at one thing: the third level of the Sound Relationship House, Turn Towards Instead of Away. At the six-year follow-up, couples that stayed married turned towards one another 86% of the time. Couples that divorced averaged only 33% of the time."
It seems like there are some fundamental mismatches here on how each of you bid for affection, and neither of you feel like your partner is turning towards you enough. In fact, at this point it sounds like the primary way you bid for affection from your husband - talking about your feelings - is now viewed as criticism by him. Sadly, I don't see how this gets better if you stay together. Your views and needs are in complete conflict with each other and it's not likely either of you can change your core needs.
I think you'd both be happier long term if you separated and found partners who are more like minded. If either party needs to wildly adapt their personality to make a relationship harmonious, that is not sustainable.
posted by amycup at 4:28 PM on February 24, 2022 [5 favorites]
You are diagnosing each other WAY too much. Him more than you, but you are a little bit as well (specifically: him treating others better because of novelty? natural, nearly universal human behavior and nothing weird about it, even though it's irritating to loved ones).
You talk about how much you've both worked on the relationship over the past few years, and that's great. But I kind of want to advise you to stop "working" on it in the sense of formal therapy and armchair diagnosis. Can he start trying to refrain from labeling your behavior? Can you? Perhaps you can both simply treat each other with kindness, let the little things go, and take on the big things together as a team?
That's easier said than done, but I am not of the DTMFA culture, especially when you have a child together. Don't stay together if you continue to be unhappy. But you owe it to yourselves and your child to give it another try, without armchair psychotherapy.
posted by redlines at 4:32 PM on February 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
You talk about how much you've both worked on the relationship over the past few years, and that's great. But I kind of want to advise you to stop "working" on it in the sense of formal therapy and armchair diagnosis. Can he start trying to refrain from labeling your behavior? Can you? Perhaps you can both simply treat each other with kindness, let the little things go, and take on the big things together as a team?
That's easier said than done, but I am not of the DTMFA culture, especially when you have a child together. Don't stay together if you continue to be unhappy. But you owe it to yourselves and your child to give it another try, without armchair psychotherapy.
posted by redlines at 4:32 PM on February 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: To clarify some of the questions:
1. Yes I'm in therapy. That's how I've been able to see some of these things more clearly. My therapist hasn't weighed on one side or the other except to help me keep things in perspective like has he changed, have I, how much change do I see in him, actually that's a lot of change from her perspective.
2. We attempted marriage counseling four different times, albeit in none of them was I strong enough in my own truth to call out his invalidating behavior with the therapist to see if they would help me address it. I have read couples therapy with a manipulative person is a bad idea because they just learn how to manipulate you better, and he's really good at coming across as the long suffering martyr trying to be the best partner he can to his crazy wife. None of our therapists have confronted this and I worry that he will just charm them into believing his optics.
3. He is the one who has said previously that the reason I see different behavior from him with some people than with me, when I've asked for the same behavior, is due to this ADHD "novelty is gone from the marriage" thing. And if those people were around all the time he'd be like this with them too. On dates he attempts 100% but his energy is diffuse anyway, in a way it's not when the novelty is there. (I think that is why our family vacation healed a lot of stuff for me/us, it was all novelty so he was present in a way he really never is otherwise.) I didn't make it about that difference on my own. Yes to an extent we all do this but the contrast in a relationship with ADHD is much more extreme.
4. I can diagnose people professionally with specialized training in some of these conditions. I don't intend to actually diagnose my partner because nobody can be objective in that situation, but the jargon comes out bc I can't help it. I talk like this with everyone. I am embarrassed and deeply ashamed that I am capable of applying professional knowledge about these types of things in professional settings, but simultaneously so hopelessly confused and unable to find solid ground in my own life. I've read that's one of the most common signs someone has been dealing with long term emotional abuse. I don't want to actually diagnose my partner but of course, if the behavior comes from a sociopathic personality then a lot of things will not work like they would of it's insecurities or low self esteem from the ADHD and having an idea of where it comes from would help me navigate which behaviors seem plausibly attainable and which aren't.
5. If I could get him to approach our issues as a team, as us vs the problem, I don't think I would need to post that novel today. I long for that, but he appears to be locked into seeing me as an adversary who cannot speak on their own experience with authority. If you have specific suggestions for how I can influence him to work as a team when he won't even believe my communication about myself please share as I'd really like that to happen.
posted by What a Joke at 4:51 PM on February 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
1. Yes I'm in therapy. That's how I've been able to see some of these things more clearly. My therapist hasn't weighed on one side or the other except to help me keep things in perspective like has he changed, have I, how much change do I see in him, actually that's a lot of change from her perspective.
2. We attempted marriage counseling four different times, albeit in none of them was I strong enough in my own truth to call out his invalidating behavior with the therapist to see if they would help me address it. I have read couples therapy with a manipulative person is a bad idea because they just learn how to manipulate you better, and he's really good at coming across as the long suffering martyr trying to be the best partner he can to his crazy wife. None of our therapists have confronted this and I worry that he will just charm them into believing his optics.
3. He is the one who has said previously that the reason I see different behavior from him with some people than with me, when I've asked for the same behavior, is due to this ADHD "novelty is gone from the marriage" thing. And if those people were around all the time he'd be like this with them too. On dates he attempts 100% but his energy is diffuse anyway, in a way it's not when the novelty is there. (I think that is why our family vacation healed a lot of stuff for me/us, it was all novelty so he was present in a way he really never is otherwise.) I didn't make it about that difference on my own. Yes to an extent we all do this but the contrast in a relationship with ADHD is much more extreme.
4. I can diagnose people professionally with specialized training in some of these conditions. I don't intend to actually diagnose my partner because nobody can be objective in that situation, but the jargon comes out bc I can't help it. I talk like this with everyone. I am embarrassed and deeply ashamed that I am capable of applying professional knowledge about these types of things in professional settings, but simultaneously so hopelessly confused and unable to find solid ground in my own life. I've read that's one of the most common signs someone has been dealing with long term emotional abuse. I don't want to actually diagnose my partner but of course, if the behavior comes from a sociopathic personality then a lot of things will not work like they would of it's insecurities or low self esteem from the ADHD and having an idea of where it comes from would help me navigate which behaviors seem plausibly attainable and which aren't.
5. If I could get him to approach our issues as a team, as us vs the problem, I don't think I would need to post that novel today. I long for that, but he appears to be locked into seeing me as an adversary who cannot speak on their own experience with authority. If you have specific suggestions for how I can influence him to work as a team when he won't even believe my communication about myself please share as I'd really like that to happen.
posted by What a Joke at 4:51 PM on February 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
Best answer: A lot of this sounds like he's naming things (ADHD and RSD) but isn't choosing to figure out how to be an adult with shame, ADHD, and RSD who can cope with the challenges those parts of him create. Likewise, he's pretty attached to certain labels for you and your behavior, and isn't choosing to learn how his assessment of you compares to your own lived experience, personal growth, and literal diagnostic expertise.
I'm autistic, not ADHD, but it's similar enough I think it's worth bringing up: there are ways my brain works that make it harder for me to understand, communicate with, and show up for my spouse. And although it's important for my spouse to accept and support me, it is also equally important for me to figure out how to work with my brain to show up for my spouse. If I'm feeling overwhelmed and snap at him, I still have to own that I snapped at him--and, especially, I have to own the choices I've made that led to me snapping (e.g., over-committing myself, managing stress poorly, wanting to be left alone but not communicating that need, etc.). It sounds like you're looking to do more than your fair share of the work to keep this relationship going, and he's game to let you (and tell you it's your responsibility, to boot) which is a recipe for resentment and unhappiness.
posted by theotherdurassister at 5:21 PM on February 24, 2022 [11 favorites]
I'm autistic, not ADHD, but it's similar enough I think it's worth bringing up: there are ways my brain works that make it harder for me to understand, communicate with, and show up for my spouse. And although it's important for my spouse to accept and support me, it is also equally important for me to figure out how to work with my brain to show up for my spouse. If I'm feeling overwhelmed and snap at him, I still have to own that I snapped at him--and, especially, I have to own the choices I've made that led to me snapping (e.g., over-committing myself, managing stress poorly, wanting to be left alone but not communicating that need, etc.). It sounds like you're looking to do more than your fair share of the work to keep this relationship going, and he's game to let you (and tell you it's your responsibility, to boot) which is a recipe for resentment and unhappiness.
posted by theotherdurassister at 5:21 PM on February 24, 2022 [11 favorites]
He needs to come to therapy *with* you so that he can, uh, give the therapist the benefit of his insight. Pick a male therapist so your partner might actually listen. Tell him (both hims) to prepare for multiple sessions of this. But start preparing to leave.
posted by amtho at 5:25 PM on February 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by amtho at 5:25 PM on February 24, 2022 [1 favorite]
Have things gotten better mostly because of all the work you've done on yourself, or mostly because you've been walking on eggshells? Is this the treatment your child is in for, and would that be acceptable? This guy sounds like a walking New Yorker cartoon.*
*Christ, what an asshole!
posted by kate4914 at 5:31 PM on February 24, 2022 [9 favorites]
*Christ, what an asshole!
posted by kate4914 at 5:31 PM on February 24, 2022 [9 favorites]
Best answer: Hello! Caveat: I’m not giving you medical or psychiatric advice here. I am a marriage and family therapist who also survived a relationship with a sociopath/narcissist in my early twenties.
1) Run, don’t walk, from this relationship
2) First, find a lawyer who has experience with narcissism and will validate you and not further the manipulation by responding unnecessarily to faulty legal claims
3) You will be ok. Your kid will be ok. Make a safe exit plan. Talk with domestic violence advocates in your area to make a safety plan. It might not sound/feel like psychological abuse right now. It seems like it could very well be, unfortunately.
It also sounds like this partner could be a dangerous person. I’d suggest you find help to escape this situation and do so calculatedly and with your and your child’s best interests in mind.
posted by LaughterHouse5 at 5:59 PM on February 24, 2022 [24 favorites]
1) Run, don’t walk, from this relationship
2) First, find a lawyer who has experience with narcissism and will validate you and not further the manipulation by responding unnecessarily to faulty legal claims
3) You will be ok. Your kid will be ok. Make a safe exit plan. Talk with domestic violence advocates in your area to make a safety plan. It might not sound/feel like psychological abuse right now. It seems like it could very well be, unfortunately.
It also sounds like this partner could be a dangerous person. I’d suggest you find help to escape this situation and do so calculatedly and with your and your child’s best interests in mind.
posted by LaughterHouse5 at 5:59 PM on February 24, 2022 [24 favorites]
Sue Johnston has a book called "Hold Me Tight" where she talks about the relationship behavior called "Finding the bad guy." It sounds like you and your husband are both working hard to find the bad guy, to blame each other for the problems in your relationship.
So what if he proves with his notebook that you have BPD and it's manifesting in your relationship? So what if you prove with comments here that he's actually the problem? Both or neither can be true and it doesn't matter, because you sound miserable. This relationship sounds exhausting.
You said that he has a theory that, when things are good, you go looking for trouble. That might be true! You said here that things have been good lately... and then you started reflecting on how things were so bad before. But just because he might be a little bit right doesn't mean he's always right or you're always wrong.
I know that it's really hard to end a marriage. I think we look for an answer or reason that feels like something we can justify. What if ... this marriage just doesn't work? What if you don't have to diagnose him, and he doesn't have to diagnose you, and you just decide that it's not working and it's time to move on?
posted by bluedaisy at 6:10 PM on February 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
So what if he proves with his notebook that you have BPD and it's manifesting in your relationship? So what if you prove with comments here that he's actually the problem? Both or neither can be true and it doesn't matter, because you sound miserable. This relationship sounds exhausting.
You said that he has a theory that, when things are good, you go looking for trouble. That might be true! You said here that things have been good lately... and then you started reflecting on how things were so bad before. But just because he might be a little bit right doesn't mean he's always right or you're always wrong.
I know that it's really hard to end a marriage. I think we look for an answer or reason that feels like something we can justify. What if ... this marriage just doesn't work? What if you don't have to diagnose him, and he doesn't have to diagnose you, and you just decide that it's not working and it's time to move on?
posted by bluedaisy at 6:10 PM on February 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
He has severe ADHD which basically means that everyone he isn't used to sees his 100% self, and his brain is used to me so the most I see is 60-70%. I'm not novel or interesting and he does his best to be kind, loving and attentive, but it's not the same as the way he interacts with people that still have that novelty appeal.
Hi, I have ADHD and sometimes it makes life hard on my partner. But I stopped reading when I got to this. THIS IS NOT ADHD. This is just being an abusive asshole. In fact, it's pretty classic abusive asshole. He's nice to people whose opinion he values for whatever reason, and he's an asshole to you because he doesn't think you'll leave.
You should leave.
posted by wintersweet at 6:13 PM on February 24, 2022 [26 favorites]
Hi, I have ADHD and sometimes it makes life hard on my partner. But I stopped reading when I got to this. THIS IS NOT ADHD. This is just being an abusive asshole. In fact, it's pretty classic abusive asshole. He's nice to people whose opinion he values for whatever reason, and he's an asshole to you because he doesn't think you'll leave.
You should leave.
posted by wintersweet at 6:13 PM on February 24, 2022 [26 favorites]
You have been wanting to leave him since 2017. It has already been time to do it ever since then.
posted by bleep at 6:54 PM on February 24, 2022 [10 favorites]
posted by bleep at 6:54 PM on February 24, 2022 [10 favorites]
Your level of analysis and awareness are actually really impressive. I think you know what you need to do.
You’re much more self aware than the people who wrote in to this advice column, but Dear Sugar’s Nowhere Man analogy of toxic messy relationships sounds like it might resonate for your situation.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 7:11 PM on February 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
You’re much more self aware than the people who wrote in to this advice column, but Dear Sugar’s Nowhere Man analogy of toxic messy relationships sounds like it might resonate for your situation.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 7:11 PM on February 24, 2022 [2 favorites]
Oops I got the link wrong- and there are two:
Dear Sugar’s “Go, even though you love him”
And
Ask Polly’s “Nowhere man and the house of mirrors”
Good luck! I think one day you’ll look back on this time and wish you left sooner.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 7:19 PM on February 24, 2022 [3 favorites]
Dear Sugar’s “Go, even though you love him”
And
Ask Polly’s “Nowhere man and the house of mirrors”
Good luck! I think one day you’ll look back on this time and wish you left sooner.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 7:19 PM on February 24, 2022 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Oh, honey. To me, he's coming across as martyr narcissist, and he's got you so tangled up at this point that - despite your professional experience - you're having a tough time finding your way out.
You even know therapy with him won't accomplish anything other than teach him to abuse you more effectively. You've put in all sorts of effort, and he has neither accepted any responsibility, or put in any work. He's just in lovebombing mode right now to keep you from leaving. He's getting all sorts of narcissistic fuel from the way he's treating you.
And now you're deep in the sunk cost fallacy. It's past time to get out. Please, talk to your lawyer, and be careful and quiet. Do everything in secrecy until you're ready to act... because that log scares me. I strongly suspect that he will attempt to keep the child from you to hurt you, and he'll use mental health as the reason for doing so.
posted by stormyteal at 7:57 PM on February 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
You even know therapy with him won't accomplish anything other than teach him to abuse you more effectively. You've put in all sorts of effort, and he has neither accepted any responsibility, or put in any work. He's just in lovebombing mode right now to keep you from leaving. He's getting all sorts of narcissistic fuel from the way he's treating you.
And now you're deep in the sunk cost fallacy. It's past time to get out. Please, talk to your lawyer, and be careful and quiet. Do everything in secrecy until you're ready to act... because that log scares me. I strongly suspect that he will attempt to keep the child from you to hurt you, and he'll use mental health as the reason for doing so.
posted by stormyteal at 7:57 PM on February 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
Best answer: He has severe ADHD which basically means that everyone he isn't used to sees his 100% self, and his brain is used to me so the most I see is 60-70%. I'm not novel or interesting and he does his best to be kind, loving and attentive, but it's not the same as the way he interacts with people that still have that novelty appeal
he is a joke. this is a hateful joke. he is trying to make you a joke, and he is acting like he hates you. it was true in 2018, it's true now, and I expect it's been true for a great deal of the time in between.
but of course, if the behavior comes from a sociopathic personality then a lot of things will not work like they would of it's insecurities or low self esteem from the ADHD and having an idea of where it comes from would help me navigate which behaviors seem plausibly attainable and which aren't.
no, this is absurd. this is ABSURD. he is an abuser, I remember saying so in 2018 along with a host of other people, and I repeat it now, along with a host of other people. you say "of course" -- what is "of course" about it? you are not a vicious-dog trainer and you are not researching for a dissertation on behavior-modification techniques for abusers, you are in a miserable sick marriage. and you can get out of it, with help and by the operation of your free will. I know it is a mountain of dangerous work to get out. but you do have some agency and some energy, and you are choosing to expend it on spinning endless absurd, tortuous, obsessively hopeful justifications of him based on irrelevant hypotheticals.
and he doesn't care, and he isn't grateful.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:55 PM on February 24, 2022 [13 favorites]
he is a joke. this is a hateful joke. he is trying to make you a joke, and he is acting like he hates you. it was true in 2018, it's true now, and I expect it's been true for a great deal of the time in between.
but of course, if the behavior comes from a sociopathic personality then a lot of things will not work like they would of it's insecurities or low self esteem from the ADHD and having an idea of where it comes from would help me navigate which behaviors seem plausibly attainable and which aren't.
no, this is absurd. this is ABSURD. he is an abuser, I remember saying so in 2018 along with a host of other people, and I repeat it now, along with a host of other people. you say "of course" -- what is "of course" about it? you are not a vicious-dog trainer and you are not researching for a dissertation on behavior-modification techniques for abusers, you are in a miserable sick marriage. and you can get out of it, with help and by the operation of your free will. I know it is a mountain of dangerous work to get out. but you do have some agency and some energy, and you are choosing to expend it on spinning endless absurd, tortuous, obsessively hopeful justifications of him based on irrelevant hypotheticals.
and he doesn't care, and he isn't grateful.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:55 PM on February 24, 2022 [13 favorites]
Best answer: You now how you could make yourself a novelty to him? By only seeing him at funerals and legally mandated mediations.
Even if you have done bad things on purpose in the past does not mean he, or anybody, gets to be violent or cruel towards you. It is not tit for tat. He could have chose to leave you but didn’t, too. He has all the signs of someone who will escalate to physical abuse, and as for your kid, kids are incredibly perceptive and will grow up with knowledge you don’t want them to have even if you think you’ve kept things secret. I don’t care if you are at fault, if you have been abusive, if you are a victim or both of you are. Separate, because it’s what you have the power to do. Get away from him.
posted by Mizu at 9:13 PM on February 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
Even if you have done bad things on purpose in the past does not mean he, or anybody, gets to be violent or cruel towards you. It is not tit for tat. He could have chose to leave you but didn’t, too. He has all the signs of someone who will escalate to physical abuse, and as for your kid, kids are incredibly perceptive and will grow up with knowledge you don’t want them to have even if you think you’ve kept things secret. I don’t care if you are at fault, if you have been abusive, if you are a victim or both of you are. Separate, because it’s what you have the power to do. Get away from him.
posted by Mizu at 9:13 PM on February 24, 2022 [4 favorites]
He thinks you're abusive and you think he's abusive and.... Yall are engaged in... What, a slow race to the bottom of the abusive barrels while arguing vehemently about who is truly abusive?
Erica Jong — 'Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer but wish we didn't
posted by Jacen at 9:46 PM on February 24, 2022 [6 favorites]
Erica Jong — 'Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer but wish we didn't
posted by Jacen at 9:46 PM on February 24, 2022 [6 favorites]
Criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling. You guys are riding these four horses into marriage apocalypse. There is no coming back from here.
posted by Thella at 10:12 PM on February 24, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by Thella at 10:12 PM on February 24, 2022 [8 favorites]
Best answer: Honestly it sounds like you've been trying really hard and putting a lot of effort towards understanding yourself and your situation and his psychology. Your analysis of the dynamic rings true to me. I suppose in a sense you are both psychologising each other, but saying that means you're both doing the same thing doesn't really feel fair because at heart it seems like you want an equal partnership and he doesn't. If you want a relationship with open communication and valuing of your needs its ok to want that, but it doesn't seem likely to happen with him. And really, he's not that important, like his understanding of you, his perceptions, if he's not showing up to understand you on some level he's not that important either? I'd recommend finding other things you can focus your energy on.
posted by mosswinter at 2:02 AM on February 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by mosswinter at 2:02 AM on February 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Rock em Sock em, you have a lot of great ideas for me to consider and I appreciate your comments even if they are hard to read. But you also misunderstand why I posted and why the relationship was called into question, and I think the difference between what you think it was about and what it's about is pretty significant so I'd like to clarify in case that changes anything in your assessment of the situation.
I didn't question the relationship or the nature of his personality structure because I felt he responded poorly to that request for conversation or because he didn't adequately soothe my feelings of being taken for granted compared to less familiar people. I questioned things because he acts like he believes he knows better than me what is happening in my head. He thinks he has determined a pattern of behavior and a rationale behind it, and isn't open to any alternative explanations based on my own self assessment, which is dehumanizing and invalidating, and speaks to a larger pattern of invalidating behavior from him that worries me.
The relationship is in question because I don't know how to expect anything approaching a real relationship with someone that thinks they know better than I do why I am doing something. How can I even exist in those circumstances? He can be nice, civil, plan dates, etc, but if I'm just a stand in for his projections about me and he won't be open to seeing that he's doing that, then how is a relationship even possible? I have other thoughts but they aren't necessary for baseline understanding of my fears like this information was, so I'll leave it at that.
@LaughterHouse5, I sent you MeMail if that's alright.
posted by What a Joke at 6:17 AM on February 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
I didn't question the relationship or the nature of his personality structure because I felt he responded poorly to that request for conversation or because he didn't adequately soothe my feelings of being taken for granted compared to less familiar people. I questioned things because he acts like he believes he knows better than me what is happening in my head. He thinks he has determined a pattern of behavior and a rationale behind it, and isn't open to any alternative explanations based on my own self assessment, which is dehumanizing and invalidating, and speaks to a larger pattern of invalidating behavior from him that worries me.
The relationship is in question because I don't know how to expect anything approaching a real relationship with someone that thinks they know better than I do why I am doing something. How can I even exist in those circumstances? He can be nice, civil, plan dates, etc, but if I'm just a stand in for his projections about me and he won't be open to seeing that he's doing that, then how is a relationship even possible? I have other thoughts but they aren't necessary for baseline understanding of my fears like this information was, so I'll leave it at that.
@LaughterHouse5, I sent you MeMail if that's alright.
posted by What a Joke at 6:17 AM on February 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
I come from a dysfunctional family, I have an abuse background and am dissociative, and my husband comes from a dysfunctional family with weird religious issues.
I don't think we have ever spent time diagnosing each other. We have spent time trying to make our lives together better, meaning a better connection between us, and sometimes that means telling someone they are wrong or hurting us, and sometimes it has come to "this really needs to change and here's why." But it has been a small percentage of our lives together because mostly - we are each other's safe harbours.
I know it's annoying to hear about other people but I mention my marriage because...each time you post I have to tell you, to me you are not describing a partnership or a friendship. You're describing a situation you both are enduring, with occasional moments of....normal couple stuff.
I think you would be better to examine the question of "who's the victim here" at a remove of 5 years after a separation and divorce.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:57 AM on February 25, 2022 [11 favorites]
I don't think we have ever spent time diagnosing each other. We have spent time trying to make our lives together better, meaning a better connection between us, and sometimes that means telling someone they are wrong or hurting us, and sometimes it has come to "this really needs to change and here's why." But it has been a small percentage of our lives together because mostly - we are each other's safe harbours.
I know it's annoying to hear about other people but I mention my marriage because...each time you post I have to tell you, to me you are not describing a partnership or a friendship. You're describing a situation you both are enduring, with occasional moments of....normal couple stuff.
I think you would be better to examine the question of "who's the victim here" at a remove of 5 years after a separation and divorce.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:57 AM on February 25, 2022 [11 favorites]
Best answer: It is reasonable to ask for validation that you're upset. It's not reasonable to ask for validation that he is bad and that he validate your desire (not need) to talk to him at length about why he is bad
As I read it, the problem isn't that OP has been looking for validation or trying to explain to their husband that he is bad. The problem is that OP says "behavior X on your part affects me like so", and their husband responds with "you're just saying that because you have BPD", rather than by actually considering the substance of the complaint: behavior X, OP's reaction to behavior X, and so on. A response like "having listened to what you're saying, I see how X bothers you. I also think it's a legitimate and human behavior, though, and it's very hard for me to change it. Let's think about how to get to a place that works for both of us" would invalidate neither partner and label neither partner as bad; that's the kind of pretty normal response it's reasonable to expect from someone who cares about working with you.
posted by trig at 9:48 AM on February 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
As I read it, the problem isn't that OP has been looking for validation or trying to explain to their husband that he is bad. The problem is that OP says "behavior X on your part affects me like so", and their husband responds with "you're just saying that because you have BPD", rather than by actually considering the substance of the complaint: behavior X, OP's reaction to behavior X, and so on. A response like "having listened to what you're saying, I see how X bothers you. I also think it's a legitimate and human behavior, though, and it's very hard for me to change it. Let's think about how to get to a place that works for both of us" would invalidate neither partner and label neither partner as bad; that's the kind of pretty normal response it's reasonable to expect from someone who cares about working with you.
posted by trig at 9:48 AM on February 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
Another way to say what I think Rock 'em Sock 'em is getting at is, OP, I get that it's frustrating when someone tells you that you're wrong about yourself, but it sounds like this is something you are both doing to each other.
To quote from the original post:
But he decided that the reason I was upset with him was because we had an emotionally open, meaningful conversation earlier that day, and therefore me saying I'm having a hard time coping with the contrast between how he treats outsiders who still have that novelty and how he treats me is just a smokescreen and my agenda is really to push him away.
He wasn't able to hear that he is wrong, and that I am in a better position to know why I'm upset than he is. I told him it's toxic to adopt that position. It's presumptuous and paternalistic and makes productive resolution impossible because he won't make space for me to be a human and a peer. And that it prolongs our problems because things cannot be resolved if he cannot accept that I am correctly identifying what the issue is on my end and how to help make it better.
He just says he sees the pattern and he is just commenting on the pattern.
So to break this down:
1. He presents a theory of what is going on in a moment of tensions between the two of you.
2. You tell him his theory is wrong, and that his wrongness is indicative of his toxicity, presumptuousness, paternalism, etc.
3. He says that he's just communicating a pattern.
So here yes, he communicates a theory of why you're reacting the way you are - and you too are communicating a theory of why he is reacting the way he is - without being there, it's honestly impossible to tell who is being uncharitable.
And since it's hard to tell, I'll share something from my own experience: in the past, sometimes my partner would say things I found hurtful, I'd express that I feel hurt, he'd get defensive and say the problem was my misinterpretation of what he said, I'd counter that he was denying the fact that he had said a hurtful thing and that was fucked up, and that would then really upset him. It sorta sounds like you're in a similar cycle?
We got out of this (mostly) - but only because I was able to trust that he, as a genuinely kind person, really does just accidentally sometimes say things that come off wrong, and he was able to learn not to argue with my feeling hurt but to trust my hurt was a fact and to therefore acknowledge it "Oh man, I'm really sorry if that came off wrong, my intended meaning here was [x] not [y], I'll try to avoid phrasing things that way in the future, here, let's hug" and then I have to trust that he is indeed telling me the truth. In other words, even though my feeling of hurt wasn't "wrong" I still had to change my approach to these situations - I had to give my partner some benefit of the doubt.
The problem though is it sounds like neither of your trust the other person - perhaps for good reasons (again, I'm just a stranger here) - but the relationship sounds to toxic to get out of this loop your in.
posted by coffeecat at 10:50 AM on February 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
To quote from the original post:
But he decided that the reason I was upset with him was because we had an emotionally open, meaningful conversation earlier that day, and therefore me saying I'm having a hard time coping with the contrast between how he treats outsiders who still have that novelty and how he treats me is just a smokescreen and my agenda is really to push him away.
He wasn't able to hear that he is wrong, and that I am in a better position to know why I'm upset than he is. I told him it's toxic to adopt that position. It's presumptuous and paternalistic and makes productive resolution impossible because he won't make space for me to be a human and a peer. And that it prolongs our problems because things cannot be resolved if he cannot accept that I am correctly identifying what the issue is on my end and how to help make it better.
He just says he sees the pattern and he is just commenting on the pattern.
So to break this down:
1. He presents a theory of what is going on in a moment of tensions between the two of you.
2. You tell him his theory is wrong, and that his wrongness is indicative of his toxicity, presumptuousness, paternalism, etc.
3. He says that he's just communicating a pattern.
So here yes, he communicates a theory of why you're reacting the way you are - and you too are communicating a theory of why he is reacting the way he is - without being there, it's honestly impossible to tell who is being uncharitable.
And since it's hard to tell, I'll share something from my own experience: in the past, sometimes my partner would say things I found hurtful, I'd express that I feel hurt, he'd get defensive and say the problem was my misinterpretation of what he said, I'd counter that he was denying the fact that he had said a hurtful thing and that was fucked up, and that would then really upset him. It sorta sounds like you're in a similar cycle?
We got out of this (mostly) - but only because I was able to trust that he, as a genuinely kind person, really does just accidentally sometimes say things that come off wrong, and he was able to learn not to argue with my feeling hurt but to trust my hurt was a fact and to therefore acknowledge it "Oh man, I'm really sorry if that came off wrong, my intended meaning here was [x] not [y], I'll try to avoid phrasing things that way in the future, here, let's hug" and then I have to trust that he is indeed telling me the truth. In other words, even though my feeling of hurt wasn't "wrong" I still had to change my approach to these situations - I had to give my partner some benefit of the doubt.
The problem though is it sounds like neither of your trust the other person - perhaps for good reasons (again, I'm just a stranger here) - but the relationship sounds to toxic to get out of this loop your in.
posted by coffeecat at 10:50 AM on February 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
To him, he feels icky bc of something I say therefore I'm causing a problem and the solution is to prevent me from being able to communicate effectively.
One more thought: every adult is responsible for managing their difficult emotions. If my spouse says something and I feel hurt, anger, and sadness in response, I am responsible for processing my hurt, anger and sadness. Of course I can ask him to change a behavior ("Please don't joke about X") or set a boundary ("I need some time by myself") or ask for support ("I'd like a hug"), but my feelings are my responsibility. My feelings aren't "our" problem--and certainly not his problem. My feelings are a physiological experience I'm having, influenced by my own personal history, our relationship history, and a host of other factors beyond the thing he said. And I am the person who needs to address my feelings: to face them, feel them, process them, and then decide what to do next about the situation. Sometimes it's entirely appropriate for him to say, "I'm so sorry, that was a hurtful thing to say. I understand why you're upset and I'm going to be careful not to do that again." But that's him owning his behavior and empathizing with me, not him taking responsibility for my feelings. And very often, if I'm having a recurring feeling of sadness/hurt in response to something he's saying or doing, it's at least partly to do with some need or preference I haven't verbalized, skill I haven't learned, or other missing piece on my end.
This probably applies to both of you. We're generally conditioned to think that if someone "hurts our feelings" or "upsets us" then our feelings are their fault and/or their problem.
posted by theotherdurassister at 10:57 AM on February 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
One more thought: every adult is responsible for managing their difficult emotions. If my spouse says something and I feel hurt, anger, and sadness in response, I am responsible for processing my hurt, anger and sadness. Of course I can ask him to change a behavior ("Please don't joke about X") or set a boundary ("I need some time by myself") or ask for support ("I'd like a hug"), but my feelings are my responsibility. My feelings aren't "our" problem--and certainly not his problem. My feelings are a physiological experience I'm having, influenced by my own personal history, our relationship history, and a host of other factors beyond the thing he said. And I am the person who needs to address my feelings: to face them, feel them, process them, and then decide what to do next about the situation. Sometimes it's entirely appropriate for him to say, "I'm so sorry, that was a hurtful thing to say. I understand why you're upset and I'm going to be careful not to do that again." But that's him owning his behavior and empathizing with me, not him taking responsibility for my feelings. And very often, if I'm having a recurring feeling of sadness/hurt in response to something he's saying or doing, it's at least partly to do with some need or preference I haven't verbalized, skill I haven't learned, or other missing piece on my end.
This probably applies to both of you. We're generally conditioned to think that if someone "hurts our feelings" or "upsets us" then our feelings are their fault and/or their problem.
posted by theotherdurassister at 10:57 AM on February 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
There just seems to be nothing positive in this relationship, neither of you sound happy, and it can't be a great environment for anyone else living there (ie your child). Stop torturing yourselves. Quit the relationship, and do so safely.
posted by plonkee at 3:16 PM on February 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by plonkee at 3:16 PM on February 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Ending the relationship is likely but I need to understand who is abusing who here.
You don’t, and I’m actually really surprised that someone with specialized professional abilities to do mental health diagnoses thinks this.
All this introspection and discourse is fine, but at the end of the day you’ll be miserable until you care more about being happy than right. Instead of figuring out how you’re right, figure out what would make you happy.
posted by jeoc at 4:13 PM on February 25, 2022 [17 favorites]
You don’t, and I’m actually really surprised that someone with specialized professional abilities to do mental health diagnoses thinks this.
All this introspection and discourse is fine, but at the end of the day you’ll be miserable until you care more about being happy than right. Instead of figuring out how you’re right, figure out what would make you happy.
posted by jeoc at 4:13 PM on February 25, 2022 [17 favorites]
It's not reasonable to ask for validation that he is bad
meanwhile,
really intense anger issues from him that got physical a couple of times (child was never around when we had those types of conflicts). He didn't hit me but would sling all the stuff on the table to the ground, knock over chairs on his way out of the room, etc. The couple of times I felt physically intimidated he seemed to minimize my fears which really bothered me.
Yes, it is reasonable to ask for validation that he is bad. He is actually bad.
Is the OP just as bad, in totally different ways? Maybe, who knows, who cares. He's bad.
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:47 PM on February 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
meanwhile,
really intense anger issues from him that got physical a couple of times (child was never around when we had those types of conflicts). He didn't hit me but would sling all the stuff on the table to the ground, knock over chairs on his way out of the room, etc. The couple of times I felt physically intimidated he seemed to minimize my fears which really bothered me.
Yes, it is reasonable to ask for validation that he is bad. He is actually bad.
Is the OP just as bad, in totally different ways? Maybe, who knows, who cares. He's bad.
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:47 PM on February 26, 2022 [4 favorites]
This reminds me a lot of some things I've experienced, and his behavior sounds at least borderline abusive. That said, it also sounds like you contribute to the conflict with plenty of problematic behavior, and he also has reason to feel misunderstood and frustrated. That's not to say that you deserve any kind of abuse (or as plenty of people have pointed out that you need to stick around for things you just don't want to put up with) but I'm not sure that this is beyond workable if you do. However, something significant definitely needs to change if you want the outcome to be different.
Here's what I suspect might help, beyond just the general idea of continuing therapy (and actually discussing your problems in that therapy):
1. A strong intention to return again and again to a focus on what everyone needs and wants and how those needs can be met, rather than on who is causing problems and why.
2. A mutual commitment to the understanding that you both have valid perspectives, needs and wants in any given situation and conversation is only constructive when both people feel they are able to express those things and be heard rather than argued out of their own experience.
3. A rule that you can unilaterally call for breaks from conversations if they're upsetting (to be continued later when you're calm, repeat as necessary). Personally, I have said about a few specific issues and claims that I'll discuss them if needed, but only in therapy.
4. A strong personal commitment to standing up for those rights for yourself. Examples: I don't feel there's space for me to have my own opinions in this conversation, and I am willing to continue it if and when I do feel that way (then actually stop talking/walk away) and, conversely I will need this particular issue to be addressed, if this thing doesn't change (and I don't change my perspective on it), that's a dealbreaker for me.
I highly, highly recommend the book "Rock the Boat," which has a different perspective on communication in relationships than I've ever encountered elsewhere. There's a heavy emphasis on the importance of communicating with integrity and not compromising, but waiting until someone's perspective naturally shifts or there's some creative solution that everyone is genuinely happy with. The bad news about this technique is that of course it can lead to discovering irreconcilable differences, but often it doesn't, and the results can be surprisingly powerful.
posted by lgyre at 5:54 PM on February 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
Here's what I suspect might help, beyond just the general idea of continuing therapy (and actually discussing your problems in that therapy):
1. A strong intention to return again and again to a focus on what everyone needs and wants and how those needs can be met, rather than on who is causing problems and why.
2. A mutual commitment to the understanding that you both have valid perspectives, needs and wants in any given situation and conversation is only constructive when both people feel they are able to express those things and be heard rather than argued out of their own experience.
3. A rule that you can unilaterally call for breaks from conversations if they're upsetting (to be continued later when you're calm, repeat as necessary). Personally, I have said about a few specific issues and claims that I'll discuss them if needed, but only in therapy.
4. A strong personal commitment to standing up for those rights for yourself. Examples: I don't feel there's space for me to have my own opinions in this conversation, and I am willing to continue it if and when I do feel that way (then actually stop talking/walk away) and, conversely I will need this particular issue to be addressed, if this thing doesn't change (and I don't change my perspective on it), that's a dealbreaker for me.
I highly, highly recommend the book "Rock the Boat," which has a different perspective on communication in relationships than I've ever encountered elsewhere. There's a heavy emphasis on the importance of communicating with integrity and not compromising, but waiting until someone's perspective naturally shifts or there's some creative solution that everyone is genuinely happy with. The bad news about this technique is that of course it can lead to discovering irreconcilable differences, but often it doesn't, and the results can be surprisingly powerful.
posted by lgyre at 5:54 PM on February 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
I just searched for the word "anxiety" in this discussion and didn't find it, so I'll ask: have you checked into whether you have an issue with anxiety? To me, as an anxious person myself, your writing suggests that. One thing about anxiety is that it can feel like you are doing work when you experience it, when it may be that you are just ruminating and perseverating without really moving forward. Especially when there is a level of partners/family members not doing what you want. They are not going to budge no matter how anxious you feel. In fact, if they are manipulative, they may exploit your anxiety to keep things as they are, either by discrediting you or by counting on you to dissipate your energy without it affecting them, or both. If you have not had a chance to address whether anxiety is a problem for you, and what interventions may be available, I think you should do that.
posted by BibiRose at 6:34 AM on February 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by BibiRose at 6:34 AM on February 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
You're looking at people - user names, really - from the internet to tell you about the reality of the marriage which you are the one living in.
You tell your husband he can't define your reality, and now you are asking strangers to do it.
We can't. Some people will offer responses that match your feelings and you will mark them best answer, but in the end if you don't feel you can trust your own feelings and perceptions, some part of you does know that you can't trust ours either (which are third hand mediated through yours), and I don't really think anything anyone could say here could really help you decide for yourself - definitively and not needing to come back in another few months - what is the reality of your marriage.
You are asking your husband to trust your perception of your reality. But that is something you yourself are not willing to do.
I think that there are many more productive uses of your time than going round and round in circles about the exact nature of the pathology of your marriage. Putting so much energy into fruitless questions can be an effective way of deflecting, distracting, and delaying, dealing with things that are actually in your power - which is mostly you.
To me this sounds like a no-fun marriage. But honestly I'm not sure that being single or being married to someone else would be much better if you are not able to trust your own perception of reality.
posted by Salamandrous at 4:32 PM on March 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
You tell your husband he can't define your reality, and now you are asking strangers to do it.
We can't. Some people will offer responses that match your feelings and you will mark them best answer, but in the end if you don't feel you can trust your own feelings and perceptions, some part of you does know that you can't trust ours either (which are third hand mediated through yours), and I don't really think anything anyone could say here could really help you decide for yourself - definitively and not needing to come back in another few months - what is the reality of your marriage.
You are asking your husband to trust your perception of your reality. But that is something you yourself are not willing to do.
I think that there are many more productive uses of your time than going round and round in circles about the exact nature of the pathology of your marriage. Putting so much energy into fruitless questions can be an effective way of deflecting, distracting, and delaying, dealing with things that are actually in your power - which is mostly you.
To me this sounds like a no-fun marriage. But honestly I'm not sure that being single or being married to someone else would be much better if you are not able to trust your own perception of reality.
posted by Salamandrous at 4:32 PM on March 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by emmet at 2:48 PM on February 24, 2022 [6 favorites]