She loves me, she loves me not...
October 22, 2021 10:53 AM Subscribe
I am getting anxious over a trip I arranged for me and my cranky mom. You are not my therapist/psychiatrist.counseler.
She raised us as a single alcoholic mother, with the constant messages, "Take my advice. Don't get married and don't have kids." We all distanced from her whether emotionally or physically, since we were the bane of her existence.
Eventually she got sober, but didn't really change her thinking. DBT tells me the best thing I can do with her at this point is build happy memories, but she makes that darn hard, too. Once she told me "we would do whatever you wanted" on a trip and then screamed at me in the motel room how manipulative I was, since I "didn't allow her to go to her program." This baffled and confused me, since, as I say, she invited me to do as I wished. She was not as concerned that the two tots, about 7 or 8 years that we brought with us, would hear me crying as she harangued me, but that they would tell their mothers (my sisters).
She has done this before in different variations, usually when we are in the middle of nowhere and there is no escape. She doesn't seem to be this mean to my siblings, not in public anyway.
Still I try and reach out. Sometimes she's fine, and then she will flip in a minute but I do my best, not looking for approval, but spending time together (she is fond of saying, "I don't have many years left on this earth, you know.")
I'm pretty sure she is not suffering from dementia. But the thing about alcohol, as I don't need to tell some of you, is you don't remember the awful things you did/said.
Now I have this overnight trip coming up with her (2 hours away) and I wish I hadn't arranged it. All I can think of is take two cars in case things go south.
This is the condensed version. Me and all of my siblings are in therapy. I was always the scapegoat in my family but I'd like to think we all grow and change.
She raised us as a single alcoholic mother, with the constant messages, "Take my advice. Don't get married and don't have kids." We all distanced from her whether emotionally or physically, since we were the bane of her existence.
Eventually she got sober, but didn't really change her thinking. DBT tells me the best thing I can do with her at this point is build happy memories, but she makes that darn hard, too. Once she told me "we would do whatever you wanted" on a trip and then screamed at me in the motel room how manipulative I was, since I "didn't allow her to go to her program." This baffled and confused me, since, as I say, she invited me to do as I wished. She was not as concerned that the two tots, about 7 or 8 years that we brought with us, would hear me crying as she harangued me, but that they would tell their mothers (my sisters).
She has done this before in different variations, usually when we are in the middle of nowhere and there is no escape. She doesn't seem to be this mean to my siblings, not in public anyway.
Still I try and reach out. Sometimes she's fine, and then she will flip in a minute but I do my best, not looking for approval, but spending time together (she is fond of saying, "I don't have many years left on this earth, you know.")
I'm pretty sure she is not suffering from dementia. But the thing about alcohol, as I don't need to tell some of you, is you don't remember the awful things you did/said.
Now I have this overnight trip coming up with her (2 hours away) and I wish I hadn't arranged it. All I can think of is take two cars in case things go south.
This is the condensed version. Me and all of my siblings are in therapy. I was always the scapegoat in my family but I'd like to think we all grow and change.
What are you hoping to get out of a continuing relationship with someone who is so unkind to you? This sounds terrible. I'm so sorry.
posted by bluedaisy at 11:37 AM on October 22, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by bluedaisy at 11:37 AM on October 22, 2021 [9 favorites]
As soon as possible, find ways to reject the crap. Leave the room, the house, the state. I largely stopped participating in my alcoholic Mom's drama; 1st there was increased drama as she tried to reel me back in. Then there was slow learning.
I stopped participating in my alcoholic, narcissistic spouse's drama. He left and we got a divorce. It was the best possible resolution.
Read Stop Walking On Eggshells
posted by theora55 at 11:39 AM on October 22, 2021 [3 favorites]
I stopped participating in my alcoholic, narcissistic spouse's drama. He left and we got a divorce. It was the best possible resolution.
Read Stop Walking On Eggshells
posted by theora55 at 11:39 AM on October 22, 2021 [3 favorites]
Don't go. You say, "I do my best, not looking for approval, but spending time together." Why do you want to spend time with this person? She's mean to you. You also have limited years left on this earth, and you don't need to spend them with someone who is cruel to you.
posted by shadygrove at 11:39 AM on October 22, 2021 [10 favorites]
posted by shadygrove at 11:39 AM on October 22, 2021 [10 favorites]
DBT is meant to be a support, it's not a religion. You do not have to make good memories with your abuser.
posted by DarlingBri at 11:42 AM on October 22, 2021 [22 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 11:42 AM on October 22, 2021 [22 favorites]
Response by poster: theora55 coincidently I just bought that book.
posted by intrepid_simpleton at 11:47 AM on October 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by intrepid_simpleton at 11:47 AM on October 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
She doesn’t remember what she says or does? Do you have a smart phone? Next time, record her, and show it to her when she’s sober.
Better yet, just don’t go. You deserve better. Spend the time cultivating a chosen family instead, with people who respect and value you.
posted by MexicanYenta at 11:55 AM on October 22, 2021
Better yet, just don’t go. You deserve better. Spend the time cultivating a chosen family instead, with people who respect and value you.
posted by MexicanYenta at 11:55 AM on October 22, 2021
She has done this before in different variations, usually when we are in the middle of nowhere and there is no escape.If you do decide to go through with this visit, then I'd say that you should have a very firm boundary about being able to always be in a situation where you can say, "No, I'm done," and leave. Camping doesn't seem like an activity conducive to this which is probably reason enough to cancel, tbh.
posted by Aleyn at 12:17 PM on October 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
>Still I try and reach out.
Gently, why? What are you hoping for? You're not required to continue having a relationship with an abusive parent. I think this would be a good thing to talk about with your therapist. Why do you willingly keep putting yourself in the line of fire? Would you hang out with a friend or stranger who treated you this way? Probably no, right? Then why is this behaviour ok (to you) from your mom? It honestly sounds like she doesn't even like you (sorry).
Anyway, I like bleep's suggestion to say you're not feeling well and cancel.
posted by foxjacket at 1:50 PM on October 22, 2021 [3 favorites]
Gently, why? What are you hoping for? You're not required to continue having a relationship with an abusive parent. I think this would be a good thing to talk about with your therapist. Why do you willingly keep putting yourself in the line of fire? Would you hang out with a friend or stranger who treated you this way? Probably no, right? Then why is this behaviour ok (to you) from your mom? It honestly sounds like she doesn't even like you (sorry).
Anyway, I like bleep's suggestion to say you're not feeling well and cancel.
posted by foxjacket at 1:50 PM on October 22, 2021 [3 favorites]
But the thing about alcohol, as I don't need to tell some of you, is you don't remember the awful things you did/said.
I am a person who grew up with a mean/erratic mom and a dad who was an alcoholic I am a little confused, she's not drinking now, yes? And are the things she doesn't remember things from when she was drinking (in which case you'll really need to be in agree-to-disagree territory with her) or things that have happened when she hasn't been drinking in which case I wouldn't toss out a dementia possibility.
Part of therapy, for me, was learning we couldn't change the past but we could reframe it so that it was a little less victim-y about what happened to us when we were little. Or for others it might be helpful to have more of that framing so you wouldn't feel like something happened because of something you did. For me what was helpful was just getting to a place where I was like "Mom has a mental illness. I don't have to enable her bad behavior but I can set my own boundaries and stick to them no matter what she does." So for me this meant no belittling me, no re-hashing old hurts (she continually would complain about things my long-dead grandparents had "done" to her and I was kinda like "But they died, I'm sorry that happened but honestly who cares?") and absolutely no yelling. Any of that would have me walking out the door or changing the subject.
I know it's easier said than done, but she is not the boss of you any more and you can make your own choices now and if she doesn't like them... so what? So maybe don't let her colonize your mind for now, make if it what you can (or cancel, cancelling is also fine) and just spend the time in two cars and make the best of it you can.
posted by jessamyn at 2:20 PM on October 22, 2021 [7 favorites]
I am a person who grew up with a mean/erratic mom and a dad who was an alcoholic I am a little confused, she's not drinking now, yes? And are the things she doesn't remember things from when she was drinking (in which case you'll really need to be in agree-to-disagree territory with her) or things that have happened when she hasn't been drinking in which case I wouldn't toss out a dementia possibility.
Part of therapy, for me, was learning we couldn't change the past but we could reframe it so that it was a little less victim-y about what happened to us when we were little. Or for others it might be helpful to have more of that framing so you wouldn't feel like something happened because of something you did. For me what was helpful was just getting to a place where I was like "Mom has a mental illness. I don't have to enable her bad behavior but I can set my own boundaries and stick to them no matter what she does." So for me this meant no belittling me, no re-hashing old hurts (she continually would complain about things my long-dead grandparents had "done" to her and I was kinda like "But they died, I'm sorry that happened but honestly who cares?") and absolutely no yelling. Any of that would have me walking out the door or changing the subject.
I know it's easier said than done, but she is not the boss of you any more and you can make your own choices now and if she doesn't like them... so what? So maybe don't let her colonize your mind for now, make if it what you can (or cancel, cancelling is also fine) and just spend the time in two cars and make the best of it you can.
posted by jessamyn at 2:20 PM on October 22, 2021 [7 favorites]
I understand how hard it can be to give up on trying to have a relationship with a parent. However, I think it is really important that make protecting yourself a higher priority than keeping her happy. Show respect for yourself and take control of the situation to make sure that you don't get trapped in a situation where someone else is able to treat you badly and you can't do anything about it.
That means only agreeing to situations where you can stop being there the minute it stops being a healthy place for you to be. My general advice is to limit contact with your mother - make the visits short and make sure always have an exit and do whatever you need to do to give yourself the strength to use the exit when you need it. This might involve other people giving you the excuse you need to leave.
I would cancel this trip and then think about what ways (if any) you think you can be with her that would work better for you. You aren't going to change her. If there is no way to be together and still take care of yourself then you need to pull back. If you want to try again, make it a much smaller time commitment with an easy exit and then build from there to the extent possible.
posted by metahawk at 2:25 PM on October 22, 2021 [5 favorites]
That means only agreeing to situations where you can stop being there the minute it stops being a healthy place for you to be. My general advice is to limit contact with your mother - make the visits short and make sure always have an exit and do whatever you need to do to give yourself the strength to use the exit when you need it. This might involve other people giving you the excuse you need to leave.
I would cancel this trip and then think about what ways (if any) you think you can be with her that would work better for you. You aren't going to change her. If there is no way to be together and still take care of yourself then you need to pull back. If you want to try again, make it a much smaller time commitment with an easy exit and then build from there to the extent possible.
posted by metahawk at 2:25 PM on October 22, 2021 [5 favorites]
You haven’t left on this trip and there is no reason you have to. If she’s going to be mad that you canceled, well it sounds like she would also yell at you if you went! So … don’t. You are an adult and don’t have to do anything you are dreading, especially if it’s just something you would supposedly be doing for fun.
posted by Bottlecap at 7:10 PM on October 22, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by Bottlecap at 7:10 PM on October 22, 2021 [2 favorites]
If she denies remembering things that happened while she's both drunk and sober, it might be... just denial. I've met people who edit reality that way, to the point of denying major parts of their lives, and about all you can do is pull back and stop engaging. You'll never get the emotional support you want.
posted by I claim sanctuary at 10:25 PM on October 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by I claim sanctuary at 10:25 PM on October 22, 2021 [1 favorite]
What's helped me in the past, in addition to therapy, is to have friends I can confide in, who have also had similar experiences. There's something about validation from people who are not family members, which helps (and they have their own war stories as well).
If you choose to go, I think having an escape plan (your own car) is an excellent idea.
There is always going to be the question of why a person behaves like this, and often, there is no answer. You can look at the way they were raised, trauma or life events they've been through, and maybe get some sort of reason why they turned out that way. But it still doesn't always ease the hurt and past trauma that they've put you through.
If you want to maintain contact, do it in a way that helps you set the boundaries. I have one family member, who I don't have regular contact with anymore (via phone, email, FB, etc.), but we exchange cards and small gifts via mail, once a year. That's just the level of comfort we've arrived upon for both our sakes. This is also a person who will "flip in a minute," so I get where you're coming from.
When you set boundaries, there will be some pushback, but eventually, most people learn that if you stand your ground, they have to follow them, or risk zero contact forever. Which isn't so bad, once you've made peace with the fact that they can't change, for whatever reason, and you don't have to put yourself through experiencing that behavior again.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 2:34 AM on October 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
If you choose to go, I think having an escape plan (your own car) is an excellent idea.
There is always going to be the question of why a person behaves like this, and often, there is no answer. You can look at the way they were raised, trauma or life events they've been through, and maybe get some sort of reason why they turned out that way. But it still doesn't always ease the hurt and past trauma that they've put you through.
If you want to maintain contact, do it in a way that helps you set the boundaries. I have one family member, who I don't have regular contact with anymore (via phone, email, FB, etc.), but we exchange cards and small gifts via mail, once a year. That's just the level of comfort we've arrived upon for both our sakes. This is also a person who will "flip in a minute," so I get where you're coming from.
When you set boundaries, there will be some pushback, but eventually, most people learn that if you stand your ground, they have to follow them, or risk zero contact forever. Which isn't so bad, once you've made peace with the fact that they can't change, for whatever reason, and you don't have to put yourself through experiencing that behavior again.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 2:34 AM on October 23, 2021 [1 favorite]
In this age where we are gradually understanding mental health better, but still really quite early in integrating that into how we actually live our lives, I think it can sometimes be useful to try a game where you flip the physical and the mental. Lets try it here.
Lets imagine that, instead of mental abuse, your mother physically hits you. She has done this within earshot of kids, she did it through your childhood, "usually when we are in the middle of nowhere and there is no escape", and she can "flip in a minute".
How would you act then? If it was a dear friend asking you what they would do, would you advise them to spend time on a trip with a parent who hit them?
Would you still feel like you ought to "still try to reach out", if when you did this you often got hit? Might you scale back your interactions to reframe your own safety?
I'm a big fan of the advice above to work on your own narrative as well. But I get a strong sense of obligation from your post, and with many here gently giving you permission not to go, or to go on whatever terms you choose, I hope that the above thought experiment might help in giving you perspective on the damage happening to you, and your right to avoid it.
posted by greenish at 4:04 AM on October 25, 2021
Lets imagine that, instead of mental abuse, your mother physically hits you. She has done this within earshot of kids, she did it through your childhood, "usually when we are in the middle of nowhere and there is no escape", and she can "flip in a minute".
How would you act then? If it was a dear friend asking you what they would do, would you advise them to spend time on a trip with a parent who hit them?
Would you still feel like you ought to "still try to reach out", if when you did this you often got hit? Might you scale back your interactions to reframe your own safety?
I'm a big fan of the advice above to work on your own narrative as well. But I get a strong sense of obligation from your post, and with many here gently giving you permission not to go, or to go on whatever terms you choose, I hope that the above thought experiment might help in giving you perspective on the damage happening to you, and your right to avoid it.
posted by greenish at 4:04 AM on October 25, 2021
This thread is closed to new comments.
If you absolutely must go then you can try to think of her more like a cranky colleague who you're on a business trip with. Oh, that's Dave, doing his Dave Dance again, ok Dave, yes we know.
posted by bleep at 11:01 AM on October 22, 2021 [22 favorites]