Am I being unreasonable?
October 22, 2021 11:28 AM   Subscribe

I need a reality check over my family's holiday gatherings and COVID. My family is treating my wife and I like we are being totally unreasonable because we don't want to have Christmas with all of them because none of them are vaccinated and we are.

My family (two sisters with children and my two parents) are all anti-vax Trump supporter types who have never taken covid seriously. They refuse to get vaccinated, have not worn masks the whole time, etc. My older sister posts a lot of memes comparing the vaccines requirements to Nazi Germany, that kind of thing. They all gathered for holidays last year and my wife and I did not go because of covid. They thought we were being really unreasonable. Now this year my wife and I are fully vaccinated but none of my family are. Everyone else my wife and I see -- her family, our friends, all of our co-workers -- are all fully vaccinated. I am also a healthcare worker who sees mostly elderly patients, who are all also vaccinated.

We tried to explain this to my parents. There is really no way to have a reasonable conversation about it. They are "well, there's data on both sides" etc. My parents get most of their info from my older sister, who is a conservative, evangelical Christian, home-schooling person who gets her info from Facebook. After the conversation, my dad called me to tell that he didn't remember what I said other than "covid blah blah blah" but that I needed to tell my sisters via phone why I'm not planning on coming to Christmas.

I guess my feeling is still that we shouldn't gather with a group of unvaccinated people who take no precautions, and doing so would not be right or fair for the other people we do see, who are vaccinated. Covid has made an already-existing rift in my family much larger, and I guess I'm just not sure what to do.

I wish I had a more direct question. I guess I want to know if I am being unreasonable and if anyone has any advice on how to handle this situation.

Thanks all.
posted by Lutoslawski to Human Relations (60 answers total) 4 users marked this as a favorite
 
You have this internet person's permission to not hang out with Trumpers on Christmas. Of course that's reasonable. You don't have to justify or argue, just politely decline and then don't show up.
posted by fritley at 11:32 AM on October 22, 2021 [78 favorites]


You are being sensible. You are setting a boundary; it's okay for you to make choices about how you spend holidays, whether there's a Pandemic or not. It's okay for them to not like it, and to complain, but not to harass, though they are unlikely to respect your boundaries. When you set boundaries and stick to them and decline to take crap, they'll learn. slooooowly. Post pictures of your fun, vaxxed holiday on social media.
posted by theora55 at 11:34 AM on October 22, 2021 [23 favorites]


Yeah, I think you have made a sensible decision, and you can explain it politely and directly, and then draw a boundary around not discussing it anymore. They're just wearing you down, but you can decide it's time to stop arguing by refusing to discuss it. "I'd love to see you, but we aren't spending time inside with folks who aren't vaccinated right now." And then if they keep pushing, tell them you won't discuss it. If they keep discussing it, hang up.

Covid hasn't broadened this rift. Your family being unreasonable has. I'm sorry. It's really tough.
posted by bluedaisy at 11:36 AM on October 22, 2021 [23 favorites]


You are a healthcare worker working with a vulnerable population. No, spending the holidays with unvaxxed, unmasked COVID-deniers isn't reasonable. On the other hand, electing not to be at the centre of a potential super-spreader event is completely reasonable.
posted by DarlingBri at 11:37 AM on October 22, 2021 [57 favorites]


For anecdata, this is why my spouse and I are not traveling to see his family over the holidays - although his immediate family is vaxxed, many folks in his extended family are not and we don't want to get into a situation where we feel forced into being in close quarters with people who are practicing dangerous behavior.

When explaining his decision my spouse has been cheerful but firm, expressing regret but talking brightly about meeting up when the weather is nice and we can have an outdoor meetup in a neutral space.
posted by rogerroger at 11:39 AM on October 22, 2021 [8 favorites]


I feel like you already know the answer to this question. You are not being unreasonable. They are. Don't go, don't feel bad about it, don't let them gaslight you that you're the crazy one.
posted by shadygrove at 11:41 AM on October 22, 2021 [10 favorites]


You are absolutely not being unreasonable.
posted by Kitteh at 11:42 AM on October 22, 2021 [7 favorites]


How exactly do you think you are being unreasonable? These same people tend to be the kind who support castle doctrine gun-toting rights as a way to keep themselves safe. You are not allowed to keep yourself safe from a deadly pandemic?

As a small-l libertarian leaning person, I've been masking, sanitizing, avoiding, we went into what was essentially a lockdown two weeks BEFORE the state mandated it, got vax'd first week available, and taking all sorts of prudent precautions, and not caring what other people think, because at the end of the day, my life is in my hands, and I don't care to get sick and die, and I would be horrified if I was the reason anyone else sick.

My wife, immunocompromised, is a nurse working in a hospital doing the regeneron treatments, some to older vaccinated people, some to immunocompromised, but largely to unvaccinated people who couldn't be bothered to get the cheap quick vaccine and instead have to go for the big heavy duty treatment.

Everyone should do their part to help our society get rid of this stupid pandemic. Doing your part to prevent spread is never unreasonable during a pandemic. You definitely have permission to feel just fine about your decision, not that you need it, of course.
posted by jgreco at 11:43 AM on October 22, 2021 [17 favorites]


“Don’t take criticism from people you wouldn’t take advice from.”

They are obviously unreasonable. Stick to your safe boundaries.
posted by Crystalinne at 11:47 AM on October 22, 2021 [43 favorites]


You work with vulnerable people - even vaccinated, you could still get COVID and spread it to others. You're doing them a favor staying home.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:48 AM on October 22, 2021 [14 favorites]


You are in the right and they are delusional. All you have to say is “That won’t be possible.” You are a grown adult and don’t owe them any other explanation than that, in part because it absolutely doesn’t matter what you say, they will tell you you’re wrong. Save yourself the aggravation and just don’t go, and don’t try to convince them why you shouldn’t. They are the ones making the choice, and their choice is to risk other people’s lives. You don’t need any kind of an excuse to not be a participant in that.
posted by MexicanYenta at 11:50 AM on October 22, 2021 [10 favorites]


My friend has decided to spend Christmas with the vaccinated side of her family. The big argument was somewhat mitigated by the fact that her grandmother on that side is in her late 80s and won’t be around for ever. She has not seen the unvaccinated side of the family since Christmas 2019. I (vaccinated) am visiting her for a few days at new year’s after her return. It is perfectly reasonable to make good choices. People who like drama will be dramatic, the rest of us get on with life.
posted by koahiatamadl at 11:53 AM on October 22, 2021 [3 favorites]


My entire family (20 plus) masked up and (some of us) gloved up and picked up a plate at my nieces' house. Then we settled into a Zoom Thanksgiving and Christmas. We had a blast, and the kids thought of many fun games. All this to say, "I'm sorry, that won't be possible" is what I would say.
posted by intrepid_simpleton at 11:53 AM on October 22, 2021 [2 favorites]


This is a perfectly reasonable decision on your part. Don't get drawn into debating it. State your position kindly but firmly and stick to it.
posted by praemunire at 11:56 AM on October 22, 2021 [6 favorites]


Your position is reasonable, especially because you are a medical provider who works with vulnerable populations. You don't owe them anything other than a polite but firm "That won't be possible."
posted by Alterscape at 12:01 PM on October 22, 2021 [4 favorites]


Just say no.
posted by Rash at 12:06 PM on October 22, 2021 [5 favorites]


Only the fact that this is a scrupulously polite forum is keeping me from swearing. Yes, it's okay to not spend Christmas with people who are dangerous to your mental and physical health.
posted by ivanthenotsoterrible at 12:10 PM on October 22, 2021 [12 favorites]


You are being totally reasonable.

>We tried to explain this to my parents. There is really no way to have a reasonable conversation about it.

Right, so no more explaining. "Sorry we aren't coming for Christmas this year." End of. Nothing more needs to be said. They can go on and on about whatever, guilt trip you, etc. Let them. (Or shut it down like, "our decision is final, we're not having any more conversations about this.") You're still not coming, and you're still not going to try to get them to understand why you're not coming, because they're not going to listen to you anyway, so save your breath.

Yes, this will likely widen the rift, but that's not all on you. They're contributing to it as well (but they'll likely blame it all on you. If you suspect that they'll turn extended family against you, try to get ahead of that. If they're all anti-vax Trump supporters, I wouldn't bother).

>he didn't remember what I said other than "covid blah blah blah"

LOL disrespect much? I understand why you don't want to spend time with them, but I'm also wondering why they want to spend time with people they don't seem to respect?... because faaamily?

>that I needed to tell my sisters via phone why I'm not planning on coming to Christmas.

LOL at treating you like a little kid. At this stage in your life, you don't have to listen to your parents. YOU decide what and by which means you tell your sisters.
posted by foxjacket at 12:10 PM on October 22, 2021 [12 favorites]


Mr. Dash and I are with you. Your position is perfectly reasonable.

We just had a death in the extended family due to a non-vaccinated adult child who was living with vaccinated cancer-patient parent, and parent did not know that child was unvaccinated. Parent is now dead of Covid that child brought home.

I have a sibling who is also rabidly anti-vaxx, and I am just crossing my fingers that my sibling does not kill my parents.

These are events that get elided over into the term "unreasonable" that is now applied to you. No, we're not unreasonable. Failure to recognize a deadly pandemic is what's unreasonable.
posted by Dashy at 12:18 PM on October 22, 2021 [21 favorites]


You are not being unreasonable. They are being unreasonable and there is no negotiating with people like this. Draw a boundary and stand by it, kindly if you like. Or not so kindly because JFC.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 12:18 PM on October 22, 2021 [3 favorites]


I would make this all about your job/patients and as little about you as possible. i.e. "I agree, the risk to myself as a vaccinated person is quite low, however given I work with at-risk populations I am currently not socializing with unvaccinated people." And then I wouldn't argue, given that if these people are referencing Nazi Germany, they are clearly generally unreasonable people. I would not expect them to respond well - I think you just need to accept they're going to be upset.
posted by coffeecat at 12:21 PM on October 22, 2021 [8 favorites]


I notice that everyone agrees you're being reasonable and I'd like to point out that they're entirely correct, very best wishes to you in what is a crummy situation in which you've done nothing wrong
posted by an octopus IRL at 12:22 PM on October 22, 2021 [6 favorites]


You're reasonable not to go, but you're going to have to give up on caring what these people think about you. That's just going to drive you crazy.
posted by mskyle at 12:29 PM on October 22, 2021 [7 favorites]


You're not being unreasonable at all, and you don't have to do anything you don't want to do. That includes calling your sisters and telling them by phone so they can yell at you or otherwise be awful.

I know this is terribly difficult and I am so sorry. If I were in your situation I would surround myself with as many people as possible who will validate my desire to stay away from people who don't respect my boundaries about my health. If you can center it (though it's painful) at what's at the root, it can be helpful to stay strong in the face of their temper tantrums. It's about your comfort and safety and they are not respecting that.

I also would not make it a debate at all. I would probably communicate it via email, and I would not bother to explain myself if I was at all concerned that I would get any push back at all.

"I am not going to be able to make it out this year for Christmas. I'm so sorry. We will miss you!"

If they ask why, I wouldn't even go into it. "We talked it about it and we decided not to travel this year." or "We decided we wanted to keep it small this year."
posted by pazazygeek at 12:31 PM on October 22, 2021 [2 favorites]


What's your goal? Make peace in the family? Not get Covid or take any unnecessary Covid risk? Find any excuse to not have to deal with these people you appear to have disdain for?

You're not being unreasonable in that everyone is entitled to make their own decisions. If it weren't for Covid, would you want to spend the holiday with them? If the answer is yes, I would actually consider going. I was told to follow the science. Ok. I am fully vaxxed and boostered. Your household and your patients are too. The chances of you getting Covid being fully vaxxed are slim, real slim. The chances of you getting it and giving it to another vaxxed person is also very slim. I am a person who understands and plays probabilities for a living. I am not sure you will ever get 100% assurance of not catching Covid. Being vaxxed is pretty damn close. So, the question to me is if you want to continue this/these relationship(s) and at what cost yes or no. A year from now, if we are in the same situation, would you go?

This may not be a popular opinion here, but I think you should hear the other side of the decision. Forget about their beliefs. WHat do the numbers and odds tell you. I would go. I accept a certain low level of risk both physically and financially. You have to decide your risk tolerance. Seems like it is extremely low. THen don't go.
posted by AugustWest at 12:34 PM on October 22, 2021 [2 favorites]


Adding to the many correct answers here: you don’t need to explain why to them. In fact, you shouldn’t even try because they’ll never accept your answer and will keep badgering you.

Should they ask again, reiterate that you are not able to attend and ask them to drop it. End the conversation if they bring it up yet again. Might take a few abruptly ended conversations for them to get it but they will.
posted by scantee at 12:37 PM on October 22, 2021 [1 favorite]


You are being totally reasonable and honestly I would seriously dial back all contact with all of them, because they sound awful. Sorry.
posted by SaltySalticid at 12:37 PM on October 22, 2021 [4 favorites]


Hi, here is Captain Awkward's column about this holiday season, minimal frothing (for her) and some actual strategies for how to minimize the frustration of this conversation.

I personally would be talking a lot less to that side of the family. The other Captain Awkward motto that really resonates from the last couple of years is Do Less Work. Less work repairing relationships that are a net negative in your life, less noise from people whose opinions you don't respect. What would your relationship with your folks and your sister look like if they were the ones who had to meet you where you are? If you stopped worrying about it one way or another?
posted by Lawn Beaver at 12:46 PM on October 22, 2021 [12 favorites]


Another voice assuring you that you are absolutely doing the right thing by refusing to go. My wife and I will be visiting vaccinated family this Xmas, but have already had The Talk explaining that we absolutely will not be visiting or otherwise in the vicinity of several unvaccinated in laws.

In addition to the excellent point that being around unvaccinated Covid deniers elevates the risk to your patients, personally I'm also pretty comfortable in saying that social repercussions are one of the all-too-few tools we have to in responding anti-vaxxers. It's a good thing to refuse to pretend that choosing to perpetuate the spread of Covid is just "a personal choice." I don't expect to change hearts and minds but I will not offer comfort to anti-vaxxers by word or by deed.

I'm sorry your family has decided to be horrid to you and to their community. I hope you and your wife are able to have a wonderful and peaceful holiday season without them.
posted by DingoMutt at 1:01 PM on October 22, 2021 [16 favorites]


It sounds to me that you have many other valid reasons for not wanting to spend time with them independent of their (non) vaccinated status. I would not feel particularly enthusiastic about spending any time, with anyone who responds to my concerns with all they heard was “Covid, blah blah blah” and someone else who compares vaccine mandates to a regime that murdered millions of people. So, no, I do not think you are being unreasonable but they won’t see it that way. I would also caution you to not let their rhetoric convince you otherwise.
posted by teamnap at 1:02 PM on October 22, 2021 [8 favorites]


Reasonable will win you no arguments here. They have taken their facts and applied their reason to them and think they're being reasonable in gathering. You have taken the facts you believe and your circumstances and believe you're being reasonable in keeping clear. I doubt you will persuade them that they're being unreasonable, and you sound like you know that staying away is the right thing for you - regardless of the fact that they believe differently - and anything else would be unreasonable for you. If they actually accept there is data on both sides then that's a way in - there's data on both sides, they agree, and so obviously people will feel differently about this.

'I'm not coming because I don't feel safe', 'I'm not coming because I feel it would affect my job' - they can try and persuade you that you should feel safe if they want, but ultimately it's not about them, it's about how you feel, and they can't tell you how you feel.
posted by How much is that froggie in the window at 1:02 PM on October 22, 2021 [1 favorite]


Here to say you also have my permission to nope right out of this.
Since facts and reason are known not to work, I suggest Miss Manners polite refusal:
“Im sorry, I’m afraid that won’t be possible.”
Repeat ad nauseum, ad infinitum until they are tired of hearing it.
posted by dbmcd at 1:17 PM on October 22, 2021 [4 favorites]


You are not being unreasonable at all, send them all a nice Christmas card and start making your own Christmas rituals.
posted by wwax at 1:19 PM on October 22, 2021 [2 favorites]


I'm a fully vaccinated and boosted epidemiologist. There is no way I would spend time indoors with a group of unvaccinated people who aren't taking risk mitigation measures seriously, not masking, not getting themselves tested, and so on. Whether related to me or not, not spending time indoors with people who fit this profile is a smart decision with respect to your health and the health of everyone you'll be a round in the two weeks after your holiday.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 1:31 PM on October 22, 2021 [42 favorites]


It's worth noting that you being a healthcare worker would be a great reason for your loved ones to pay attention and take your opinion seriously rather than summarizing it as "covid blah blah blah." It would be counterproductive to explain further to your dad or call your sisters to explain to them. You've been clear. It's not that they don't understand, it's that they don't respect your choice. Nothing you say will persuade them if they're not starting from a place of respecting you. You can just say, "I'm not coming this year. Talking about why hasn't gotten us anywhere, so let's skip it." Most likely, the only reason any of them would engage with you about this topic would be to argue with you. If it's important to you not to widen the rift around COVID, basically all you can do is refuse to engage in debate. And, further, if your family members push you to debate them about it, they're being unreasonable and unkind.
posted by theotherdurassister at 1:35 PM on October 22, 2021 [9 favorites]


I want validate your sense that this is actually a pretty risk that you are being asked to take. I went to the microCOVID Project website and looked at their analysis of the risk of spending just one day with your family. Assuming you are with eight people for eight hours, no masks, in California, the risk from just that one day would 21 times higher than a reasonable risk exposure for an entire week. I guess the only good news is that after about five hours with same people, the risk doesn't get any higher.

These numbers are for your own understanding - I really wouldn't bother trying to talk about it with your family. But I want to validate your own sense that this is really not something that you want to be doing.
posted by metahawk at 1:42 PM on October 22, 2021 [11 favorites]


You're being reasonable.

In the Before Times I banned everyone who hadn't had a pertussis booster from visiting my newborn until he could get vaccinated (there was a small outbreak up here) and also we didn't go to some events. There was grumbling. But because pertussis vaccines were not political, most people were kind and chalked it up to being supportive of my feelings or waiting a bit.
posted by warriorqueen at 1:45 PM on October 22, 2021 [6 favorites]


I agree with your decision.
I live in a village in a rural area with abysmally low vaccine rates (based on the same right-wing misinformation you cited), and high infection rates.
A month ago, the 51 (F) year old president of our church council, local court clerk, and caregiver for her elderly mother and aunt, died of COVID in the regional major medical center due to blood clots. The doctors were at her side in the hospital and there was nothing they could do.
The elderly mother later said: We should have just gotten the damn vaccine.
I'd like to say that this tragedy modified the behavior of the community, but I have no evidence that happened. The current death rate in this county of about 44,000 is 1 in 276 since January of last year. 1 in 7 residents have been infected.
You are not being unreasonable in the least.
posted by apartment dweller at 2:04 PM on October 22, 2021 [7 favorites]


I wouldn't keep a friend who voluntarily goes unvaccinated, nor one who supports Trump. Whether they are related to me by blood or not.
posted by sourcequench at 2:36 PM on October 22, 2021 [13 favorites]


100% not unreasonable.

"I'd love to see you, but we aren't spending time inside with folks who aren't vaccinated right now."

I'd leave off the "right now" qualifier; it sounds like an invitation to try to change your mind.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 2:40 PM on October 22, 2021 [3 favorites]


Do not spend time with Qanon cult members, no. Not inside or outside.
posted by Lyn Never at 2:58 PM on October 22, 2021 [8 favorites]


My family (two sisters with children and my two parents) are all anti-vax Trump supporter types who have never taken covid seriously. They refuse to get vaccinated, have not worn masks the whole time, etc. My older sister posts a lot of memes comparing the vaccines requirements to Nazi Germany, that kind of thing.

Good god what a nightmare social occasion.

Not being unreasonable. "Hope you all have a great time; looking forward to seeing you when it's safe"
posted by A Terrible Llama at 3:23 PM on October 22, 2021 [4 favorites]


My younger brother -- good health, fully vaxed -- got breakthrough, Delta variant. He was in fact the first I'd heard of breakthrough. He got sick as hell -- really sick -- ten days gone, lost his sense of smell, god only knows what other problems may show up if he's some sort of long hauler.

I would not go near that "happy holiday" no matter what. On top of the risks, you'd be hanging around with people who are really unpleasant to be around for a day or however long; for me, an hour would be too long.

Send them a note, tell them you love them, wish them a happy holiday. Then, enjoy your holiday, with sane people.
posted by dancestoblue at 3:34 PM on October 22, 2021 [8 favorites]


Lead by example.
This global pandemic has been going on since before Spring 2020. The medical and scientific information is out there for anyone who wants it. It is not your job to educate your relatives, even in the face of misinformation and the possibility of severe repercussions.
It's not your job to change their minds. It's your job to take the facts and make the best decisions for your own health and the health of those with whom you interact.
Live your best practices for reducing risk from COVID-19. Show them, don't tell them. If they are ready, they will have a realistic example of how to adapt to a post-pandemic lifestyle.
Don't expect your family members to admit mistakes or apologize. Let that go.
Enjoy your holidays, live your best lives, and have the peace of mind that comes with making good decisions.
posted by TrishaU at 3:38 PM on October 22, 2021 [4 favorites]


Instead of wasting your energy trying to convince them why this is a bad idea, try using your time to plan a jerk-family-free holiday. You're free! Go where you want! Rent that air bnb with your vaccinated wife! Have the best time!

Seriously don't give them another thought. Plan the best holiday ever. Don't look back.
posted by haplesschild at 3:41 PM on October 22, 2021 [7 favorites]


Thank you for protecting your patients. I’m so sorry your family is disrespectful and rude, and I wish there was a magical way to get them not to be. But their behavior isn’t a reflection of you - you are doing things right! You are being extremely reasonable and there is no reason for you to protect them from the consequences of their actions. In this case the consequence of not being vaccinated is not getting to see you for the holidays and they could EASILY have a different consequence by changing their actions. Personal responsibility means also taking responsibility for the outcomes and tryna put a guilt trip on you for making sound choices.
posted by Bottlecap at 4:06 PM on October 22, 2021


OK. I have been making similar decisions to you. Even in the midst of what has unarguably been the worst year in the history of my family, we were very careful last Thanksgiving and Christmas before we could get vaccinated and did not travel at all or gather indoors. It hurt. It still hurts. This year we are planning more or less normal indoor gatherings with vaccinated family, including a plane flight. Part of the reason I am willing to do much more, sadly, is that it is now obvious herd immunity is not coming. The world is simply more dangerous than before. So I am willing to take on some more risk because it seems unlikely that the risk will be lower in a year. I, personally, wouldn't mind having a very brief (15 minute) indoor get together with unvaccinated family if I were in an N95. Or a longer outdoor gathering. Would you be going back immediately into care work? Because that would enter into my decision, too. If I had a week after coming back (a luxury for most, I know) that would make a difference. Good luck figuring it out.
posted by wnissen at 4:54 PM on October 22, 2021


"The chance that I could pass the virus to one of you or, worse, to our parents is pretty small since I'm vaccinated and wear a mask when I'm around other people, but I'm not willing to put you guys at even a small risk. I work in health care, you know, so I'm closer to some of this than you might be, and believe me, this disease is not something I'd ever want to subject people I love to. I want all you guys around for years and years of Christmases!"
posted by Don Pepino at 6:16 PM on October 22, 2021 [3 favorites]


After the conversation, my dad called me to tell that he didn't remember what I said other than "covid blah blah blah" but that I needed to tell my sisters via phone why I'm not planning on coming to Christmas.

I think this is a great opportunity for laughing hysterically and hanging up on them because that is some unreasonable bullshit. You are not the unreasonable one. I am sorry about your family. It sounds to me like you've had a lot of differences with them in the past possibly too but that COVID has brought it all to a head?

Here's the thing, you are a grown up and can make a decision about how to spend your time. Your parents can not force you to do anything. And it's worth being kind to yourself and your wife, letting you be in a situation that feels both physically and emotionally safe, and letting other people think whatever thoughts they may about you.

Because, that's really the thing. You have to decide you care more about what you think than what they think, and that's an okay position to take. And it might be worth maybe doing some role playing about what reasonable family members might do when talking to someone who they disagreed with, because your family is so off-base from being reasonable that beyond a polite "No thank you" you don't owe them anything.
posted by jessamyn at 7:52 PM on October 22, 2021 [10 favorites]


“…After the conversation, my dad called me to tell that he didn't remember what I said other than "covid blah blah blah" but that I needed to tell my sisters via phone why I'm not planning on coming to Christmas…”

Boy howdy.
Apart from the basic fucking rudeness of that to a HCW during a pandemic, it’s especially disdainful to one’s adult family member. I’d venture to guess it’s not the first time you’ve been on the receiving end of that kind of petulance from this family dynamic.

You can’t drag these people up, they are in such an immature sphere of operating. I guess I would just have agreed with him, and said “Yeah, ‘Covid blah blah blah’ is pretty much it Dad. It should be easy enough, even for you or say, any five year old, to share with Sister. I am actually dealing with adult things around the ‘Covid blah blah blah’ in a consequential and real way in my based-in-actual-reality day to day life.” Click.

Enjoy your moron-free festivities.
posted by honey-barbara at 9:36 PM on October 22, 2021 [7 favorites]


I'm for clear explicit boundaries like Don't talk to me or invite me to any family activities until you are fully vaccinated. Then any proceeding conversation goes, do your want to attend xxx?, and you can say Oh you got vaccinated? they say no, you hang up. Done. No more explanation or arguement.
posted by AlexiaSky at 9:49 PM on October 22, 2021 [4 favorites]


It absolutely makes sense to me that they think you’re being unreasonable because they obviously think being unvaccinated is at least as good if better than being vaccinated, and so why would anyone want to avoid someone who’s doing that??? They’re wrong and it’s worse and it’s 100% reasonable to not visit with them.
posted by aubilenon at 11:31 PM on October 22, 2021 [1 favorite]


I always feel like such an arsehole when I read these types of questions.
Here's you worrying about being unreasonable in the face of such aggressive, hurtful stupidity.
Page after page of helpful, considerate advice.

My advice?

Don't go.
Send every single one of them a mask as a present.
posted by fullerine at 1:09 AM on October 23, 2021 [11 favorites]


I have a friend whose husband got the Delta variant, fully vaccinated. He works in education. Lost his sense of smell, spent several miserable days with it. She spent several days, worried for him, and terrified she'd get it.

I would treat this as any unsafe activity my family asked me to do (bungee jumping, cliff diving). In times past, I have blamed my doctor for similar things ("sorry, my doctor says no"). If you want to do white lies, you could just say your job doesn't allow it, and you'd have to isolate for 2 weeks and lose pay. Or just be blunt and say you won't be spending time with people who are unvaccinated.

However you word it, sure it will give them immense satisfaction to put you down. People who hold strong beliefs like that thrive on these types of situations, so they can relate to their in-group. I know for myself, in times past, I've not gotten the flu shot because I felt like my immune system was strong, why bother? But this year, I will definitely get it, and when the booster becomes available to me, I will get that as well. We've passed over 100,000 cases here in Maine, and one hospital is closing their emergency room starting Monday.

My aunt died of COVID last year, and I wouldn't risk my life or the life of others around me just to make nice with people who want to live in some kind of bizzarro fantasy world where they can fight off a deadly virus just by saying so.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 2:02 AM on October 23, 2021 [5 favorites]


Gotta join the pile on. It is exactly firm boundaries set by reasonable people with their own loved ones that has the best chance of penetrating the bubble of idiocy around this subject. Stick to your guns.

Lost someone I dearly loved to covid just a month ago. They were vaccinated but had a serious underlying condition. Don’t be responsible for that.
posted by spitbull at 8:03 AM on October 23, 2021 [1 favorite]


My husband and I, both fully vaxxed and scrupulous mask-wearers, both contracted breakthrough COVID just a few weeks ago. Fortunately it was nothing much more than a bad cold for either of us, and we are completely recovered; however, let me tell you that was scary. I say this to add to the many reasonable voices above that you are entirely within your rights to decline spending ANY time with people who willingly put others through this nonsense. The vax may very well have saved our lives, who knows, but it is still no 100% guarantee of immunity, and there is NO REASON on earth why you should be expected to place yourself and your patients at any elevated risk. Enjoy your Trump-free holidays!!
posted by deep thought sunstar at 10:26 AM on October 23, 2021 [1 favorite]


In your position, I would make up my mind that I’m not going to join them for Christmas. Then I would think about what I want. I can’t persuade them that they’re doing something unwise. I can’t make them believe that I’m being reasonable. I can’t make them stop telling me that I’m wrong and unfair. So is there anything I want that is actually possible?

In my family all I can do is say, “I’m not going to the family gathering this year because I am afraid of getting Covid. And I really don’t have anything else to say about it.” Then when someone brings It up again, I won’t engage at all. This part is hard, because I’m not used to refusing to engage and because my family isn’t used to accepting the answer ‘no.’ So I’ll need to be ready… and even to rehearse various ways of not engaging. One is to just remain silent after their comment or question. Another is to change the subject; another might be to say, “How about if we talk about something else?” Or I might need to just politely excuse myself and hang up or leave the room.

Don’t let yourself keep wishing for something you can’t have, and don’t give them any reason to hope they can change your mind.
posted by wryly at 12:21 PM on October 23, 2021


The chances of you getting Covid being fully vaxxed are slim, real slim.

It depends on what you define as slim, and probably better to look at actual estimates instead of just doing by gut feel. The microCOVID project estimate above is 0.4% risk from the activity (which itself would mean you would be pretty likely to get COVID if you did something like that every week).

But that was for California (with a relatively low COVID rate) and for exposure to the "average person". The "average person" is vaccinated. Unfortunately, your relatives have way more risk tolerance than the "average person". "Went to a bar in the last 10 days" is probably a better description of the risk profile of your relatives.

If you do the risk calculation for the whole United States and assuming your relatives have higher risk tolerance than the average person, your estimated risk of infection even being fully vaccinated is 7%. That's not slim at all—microCOVID calls it "Extreme Risk" for someone who works with vulnerable people like yourself.

Even if the risk were slim (it's not), it would be an unnecessary that you don't have to take, and you shouldn't.
posted by grouse at 8:32 AM on October 24, 2021 [1 favorite]


I wanted to chime in late to say that a couple of years ago, before 03/2020, you would have gotten the same pile-on of “don’t go” even without covid-19 as a factor. These people know they aren’t actually in Nazi Germany and imo are basically mocking the actual victims of the Nazis as well as being verbally shitty to you. Even without calculating whether your going is a risk to your family, yourselves, or your patients, you are talking about Evangelical family members who circulate Holocaust memes and a parent who dismisses any concerns you have as “blah blah blah” and is trying to pressure you into visiting by mocking and shaming you. I think one of the effects of the pandemic has been the cultural grief of not being able to physically be near your family, of a lot of people feeling like family visits are something precious, even when they might in fact be pretty toxic. I agree that going to an anti-vaxxer event would put your patients at risk, but even without that, this sounds like a terrible event that you don’t need to attend, with your family being the worst versions of themselves in ways they might not be in years when this isn’t a culture war flashpoint. You’re not being unreasonable. Good luck. Don’t go.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 10:36 PM on October 24, 2021 [7 favorites]


I'm sorry about your family. I'm lucky my immediate family is rational and vaccinated, and I actually enjoy seeing them over the holidays.
In my extended family, I likely won't see them over the holidays again this year, because although they are vaccinated, they are Trump supporters and probably Q Anon, and all I have to do is take a look at one of their lovely social media posts for evidence of their very clear disprespect and hatred for me. When these family members know I'm a democrat and freqeuntly posts about how democrats are murderers intentionally spreading Covid (which is apparently both nonsense and a plague meant to kill conservatives) or Nazis, or that I'm killing democracy because of the big lie, they know exactly what they're doing. They're telling me not to come to Christmas with them. I didn't create this rift just like you didn't create the divide in your family.
Now I want to add... this avoidance doesn't apply to everything they say. When it comes to conversations about BLM and civil rights, I think it's important to try to talk to these people because I may be one of very few people they know who can model constructive thoughts to them. The way I can try to be an ally is by being a reasonable perspective, someone they can talk to if they want to have a real conversation about racism. For instance, if they wanted to know if there were riots and destruction in my city, I am the person who says, "Nah that's a lie. Here's a photo, you can see there's no property damage here." That's really hard, but it's something I can try to do, and I may be the only person they know that will do it.
The same arguement, for me, doesn't apply to COVID. Because you need to keep your pateints safe, yourself safe, and your parents safe. If you don't go, you'll know you are not the person who spread covid to your unvaccinated family or your workplace. I think you have a public health obligation to let them know you think they should be vaccinated - it sounds like you did that - and to model safe behavior, which in this case is not being around people who are not following CDC guidelines. This is all really difficult. I'm sorry.
posted by areaperson at 7:34 AM on October 25, 2021


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