Budding best friendship keeps hitting a weird emotional snag
October 6, 2021 1:52 PM Subscribe
After two plus decades without one, I suddenly find myself with a best friend, or at least someone with real potential to become a best friend. But I keep getting my feelings hurt by her...what exactly is the deal here?
I swear, I am normally not a drama llama AT ALL but I am having an issue and need some disinterested advice.
I (female, early 40s, married, no kids, many cats) recently moved to a new city and became part of a friend group, something I wanted for myself and actively worked to achieve as a major life goal. Yay me! Everything has been going swimmingly and I've even found myself becoming increasingly close to another member of the group (female, early 30s, single, no kids, many cats), even though with us both being very shy individuals, it took quite a while to get to know each other. But once we did, the friendship seemed to click in a way I hadn't fully experienced since I was in college. We both hang out with all the other friends but seem to secretly like each other best. She is funny and smart and we share many of the same interests and anxieties and we just understand each other and, I don't know, kind of float on the same wavelength or whatever. I would describe us both as bookish people who also like to party. We, up until now, talked to each just about every day, at least via text. Even though I haven't said as much out loud, I've begun to think of her as my best friend and I feel a (platonic) love and affection for her that goes beyond casual friendship. I am not gonna lie - I cherish the shit out of our friendship and am afraid of losing her since I haven't had an honest-to-god bestie in such a long time.
The problem comes when we are hanging out and she gets drunk. Some background: most but not all of our friend group activities involve alcohol. I really don't think friend is an alcoholic but when she does drink she sometimes, but not always, tends to go overboard and undergoes a major personality change in terms of her level of outgoingness. I tend to drink somewhat less than her because I'm super hangover prone.
Anyway, almost every time we hang out and she gets wasted she ends up hurting my feelings somehow. The first time, we were at a music venue and she and a couple other friends ran off to the bar for the rest of the night leaving me and one other friend alone at the table. After a while I went looking for them and when I approached they were very deep in conversation and either ignored or didn't see me. We did talk about my feeling hurt over this a little while later and she said it wasn't intentional and she was swept up in the fun of the night. I apologized for being oversensitive and everything went back to normal with us. Until the next time we went drinking together.
The next time she and another friend kind of ganged up on me over something I said in a distinctly, "we're X group, and you wouldn't understand" way. Meanwhile, I do consider myself part of X group but was never given the chance to explain that. Oh well, chalked it up to a some drunk banter that got slightly more aggressive than it needed to.
Later that same night, she leaves both me and other friend alone pretty much the whole night to go look for and find attention from some really gross, rapey dudes at the bar who she later needs to be rescued from and is really ungrateful for at the time, despite the fact that I got pawed by one of them myself while trying to extract her from the situation. She also missed my karaoke performance for which she had promised to clap. The next morning she comes to her senses, says sorry for being a jerk last night without prompting - it's all good.
Fast forward to last week at a mutual friend's small party. She gets drunk again and proceeds to flirt a little too much with my husband - touching his hand and knee repeatedly, that kind of thing (my husband is part of the friend group is well, so they've spent a lot of time together and it's never been weird or concerning to me before). Then, she decides she wants to have a conversation with a girl newly introduced to the group and so sits between new girl and me, then turns her back on me to talk to new girl as though she were her new BFF - which I found extremely rude and hurtful.
As much as this relationship means to me, I'm starting to think there is a very unhealthy dynamic here that I've never experienced before in a friendship. After the first and last incidents detailed above happened I felt so deeply hurt it sent me into a days long depression. Which I realize is probably an overreaction. Which is why I fear the issue may really be on my side. It's possible I'm over attached and she doesn't feel the same way I do about our friendship. It's possible it's unrealistic of me to expect my friend to pay so much attention to me especially in group settings.
Give me your honest, harsh opinion on this - is my friend finding ways to be shitty to me consciously or even subconsciously and, if so, what could be her motive? Or am I being jealous and controlling out of fear of losing her or insecurity over my apparent lack of appeal in the "fun drunk time" department when compared with just about anyone else available? Is there something else going on that maybe has to with our respective marital statuses and/or age gap?
I've decided to step back from our friendship for the time being to clear my head. I've considered doing the "slow fade" on her for my own mental health, if nothing else, but the very thought of it makes me terribly sad and is complicated by our shared friend group. I value her enough to try to talk it out but I'm worried that a) I will reveal myself to be a weird jealous psycho and/or b) that the discussion won't go well and I will lose all my other friends in the group (including new girl, who to complicate things seems awesome and possible BFF material herself). I feel like it's too controlling to ask her to tone down her drinking, but I just want to feel like I'm fun and included in the fun when we go out.
Basically, what do you think is really going on here and is this friendship salvageable?
I swear, I am normally not a drama llama AT ALL but I am having an issue and need some disinterested advice.
I (female, early 40s, married, no kids, many cats) recently moved to a new city and became part of a friend group, something I wanted for myself and actively worked to achieve as a major life goal. Yay me! Everything has been going swimmingly and I've even found myself becoming increasingly close to another member of the group (female, early 30s, single, no kids, many cats), even though with us both being very shy individuals, it took quite a while to get to know each other. But once we did, the friendship seemed to click in a way I hadn't fully experienced since I was in college. We both hang out with all the other friends but seem to secretly like each other best. She is funny and smart and we share many of the same interests and anxieties and we just understand each other and, I don't know, kind of float on the same wavelength or whatever. I would describe us both as bookish people who also like to party. We, up until now, talked to each just about every day, at least via text. Even though I haven't said as much out loud, I've begun to think of her as my best friend and I feel a (platonic) love and affection for her that goes beyond casual friendship. I am not gonna lie - I cherish the shit out of our friendship and am afraid of losing her since I haven't had an honest-to-god bestie in such a long time.
The problem comes when we are hanging out and she gets drunk. Some background: most but not all of our friend group activities involve alcohol. I really don't think friend is an alcoholic but when she does drink she sometimes, but not always, tends to go overboard and undergoes a major personality change in terms of her level of outgoingness. I tend to drink somewhat less than her because I'm super hangover prone.
Anyway, almost every time we hang out and she gets wasted she ends up hurting my feelings somehow. The first time, we were at a music venue and she and a couple other friends ran off to the bar for the rest of the night leaving me and one other friend alone at the table. After a while I went looking for them and when I approached they were very deep in conversation and either ignored or didn't see me. We did talk about my feeling hurt over this a little while later and she said it wasn't intentional and she was swept up in the fun of the night. I apologized for being oversensitive and everything went back to normal with us. Until the next time we went drinking together.
The next time she and another friend kind of ganged up on me over something I said in a distinctly, "we're X group, and you wouldn't understand" way. Meanwhile, I do consider myself part of X group but was never given the chance to explain that. Oh well, chalked it up to a some drunk banter that got slightly more aggressive than it needed to.
Later that same night, she leaves both me and other friend alone pretty much the whole night to go look for and find attention from some really gross, rapey dudes at the bar who she later needs to be rescued from and is really ungrateful for at the time, despite the fact that I got pawed by one of them myself while trying to extract her from the situation. She also missed my karaoke performance for which she had promised to clap. The next morning she comes to her senses, says sorry for being a jerk last night without prompting - it's all good.
Fast forward to last week at a mutual friend's small party. She gets drunk again and proceeds to flirt a little too much with my husband - touching his hand and knee repeatedly, that kind of thing (my husband is part of the friend group is well, so they've spent a lot of time together and it's never been weird or concerning to me before). Then, she decides she wants to have a conversation with a girl newly introduced to the group and so sits between new girl and me, then turns her back on me to talk to new girl as though she were her new BFF - which I found extremely rude and hurtful.
As much as this relationship means to me, I'm starting to think there is a very unhealthy dynamic here that I've never experienced before in a friendship. After the first and last incidents detailed above happened I felt so deeply hurt it sent me into a days long depression. Which I realize is probably an overreaction. Which is why I fear the issue may really be on my side. It's possible I'm over attached and she doesn't feel the same way I do about our friendship. It's possible it's unrealistic of me to expect my friend to pay so much attention to me especially in group settings.
Give me your honest, harsh opinion on this - is my friend finding ways to be shitty to me consciously or even subconsciously and, if so, what could be her motive? Or am I being jealous and controlling out of fear of losing her or insecurity over my apparent lack of appeal in the "fun drunk time" department when compared with just about anyone else available? Is there something else going on that maybe has to with our respective marital statuses and/or age gap?
I've decided to step back from our friendship for the time being to clear my head. I've considered doing the "slow fade" on her for my own mental health, if nothing else, but the very thought of it makes me terribly sad and is complicated by our shared friend group. I value her enough to try to talk it out but I'm worried that a) I will reveal myself to be a weird jealous psycho and/or b) that the discussion won't go well and I will lose all my other friends in the group (including new girl, who to complicate things seems awesome and possible BFF material herself). I feel like it's too controlling to ask her to tone down her drinking, but I just want to feel like I'm fun and included in the fun when we go out.
Basically, what do you think is really going on here and is this friendship salvageable?
I am very sorry she is treating you this way.
My harsh opinion is that she is being a jerk and as long as you invest your time and hopes in her, you will continue to be hurt. To me, it really doesn't matter where her actions fall on the intention continuum. I don't think talking to her about this would make your life better.
Your feelings are not an overreaction and not petty jealousy on your part.
posted by Caxton1476 at 2:09 PM on October 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
My harsh opinion is that she is being a jerk and as long as you invest your time and hopes in her, you will continue to be hurt. To me, it really doesn't matter where her actions fall on the intention continuum. I don't think talking to her about this would make your life better.
Your feelings are not an overreaction and not petty jealousy on your part.
posted by Caxton1476 at 2:09 PM on October 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
People who drink in this manner are unreliable. I completely understand your excitement about getting a new best friend but this person is not a good friend. So either meet her for lunches or other occasions without booze, as suggested above, or just stop seeing her if you don’t want to continue to feel shitty. Either way, find some better friends. Good luck!
posted by Bella Donna at 2:13 PM on October 6, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 2:13 PM on October 6, 2021 [9 favorites]
Yeah it sounds to me like whether or not she's an alcoholic, she's a different kind of person when drinking, and since your group dynamics typically involve drinking, she's mostly going to be unpleasant to you.
And it sounds like you are, unfortunately, WAY more invested in this friendship than she is. I sort of understand the impulse, if this is a real lack you've been feeling and now you think there's a chance to fill that lack. But like this...
We both hang out with all the other friends but seem to secretly like each other best.
and
turns her back on me to talk to new girl as though she were her new BFF
Both stood out as signs that something really unproductive is going on with you. You've crafted a lot of statuses and rules for this friendship and it does not seem like you've shared ANY of them with her.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:15 PM on October 6, 2021 [73 favorites]
And it sounds like you are, unfortunately, WAY more invested in this friendship than she is. I sort of understand the impulse, if this is a real lack you've been feeling and now you think there's a chance to fill that lack. But like this...
We both hang out with all the other friends but seem to secretly like each other best.
and
turns her back on me to talk to new girl as though she were her new BFF
Both stood out as signs that something really unproductive is going on with you. You've crafted a lot of statuses and rules for this friendship and it does not seem like you've shared ANY of them with her.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:15 PM on October 6, 2021 [73 favorites]
Reading all of this made my eyebrows go up and up and up and up.
I really get how it seems like there's a lot about her to like & maybe you could just write the bad stuff off. But I don't think you should write all of this off.
This part here was the deal breaker for me.
"The next time she and another friend kind of ganged up on me over something I said in a distinctly, "we're X group, and you wouldn't understand" way. Meanwhile, I do consider myself part of X group but was never given the chance to explain that. Oh well, chalked it up to a some drunk banter that got slightly more aggressive than it needed to."
Drunk or not, I just don't think this is how friends treat each other. Maybe I'm biased because I've been you in this exact exchange and I think it's a really closed minded & cliquish point of view & suggests they're not going to let you in & just want to string you along for the nice feelings of attachment & affection you'll send their way without them having to do much in return. I could be projecting but this is just my read on it.
posted by bleep at 2:19 PM on October 6, 2021 [6 favorites]
I really get how it seems like there's a lot about her to like & maybe you could just write the bad stuff off. But I don't think you should write all of this off.
This part here was the deal breaker for me.
"The next time she and another friend kind of ganged up on me over something I said in a distinctly, "we're X group, and you wouldn't understand" way. Meanwhile, I do consider myself part of X group but was never given the chance to explain that. Oh well, chalked it up to a some drunk banter that got slightly more aggressive than it needed to."
Drunk or not, I just don't think this is how friends treat each other. Maybe I'm biased because I've been you in this exact exchange and I think it's a really closed minded & cliquish point of view & suggests they're not going to let you in & just want to string you along for the nice feelings of attachment & affection you'll send their way without them having to do much in return. I could be projecting but this is just my read on it.
posted by bleep at 2:19 PM on October 6, 2021 [6 favorites]
From the outside looking in, I agree that she doesn't see this relationship the same way you do. One thing I'm wondering about – and I've struggled with this myself – is if talking/texting every day has the same BFF-ness value for her as it does for you? I'm the same way, but I know folks who just prefer the constant social contact (or say they have a lot of BFFs). It seems like it's less effort for some than it is for others.
posted by enigmango at 2:19 PM on October 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
posted by enigmango at 2:19 PM on October 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
That wasn't super clear, I'm sorry. What I mean is, you're approaching her in these situations like the following are both unequivocally true:
1. You are her BFF
2. She is your BFF
3. Both of you are in full agreement on 1 and 2
4. BFFs behave a certain way, with things they do and don't do; these rules are obvious and clear to everyone.
But it's not clear to me that any of those assumptions are correct except for #2. So she's failing tests she doesn't know are happening, and dashing hopes she doesn't know you have. At this point you either need to step back from the friendship and treat her as she treats you--one friend among many in a group--or have an actual conversation about how you feel and risk that she will in fact reject you, causing a possible ripple effect in the friend group. (If your friend group is largely a mature and reasonable one, it shouldn't. But only you know what the vibe of the group is.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:21 PM on October 6, 2021 [28 favorites]
1. You are her BFF
2. She is your BFF
3. Both of you are in full agreement on 1 and 2
4. BFFs behave a certain way, with things they do and don't do; these rules are obvious and clear to everyone.
But it's not clear to me that any of those assumptions are correct except for #2. So she's failing tests she doesn't know are happening, and dashing hopes she doesn't know you have. At this point you either need to step back from the friendship and treat her as she treats you--one friend among many in a group--or have an actual conversation about how you feel and risk that she will in fact reject you, causing a possible ripple effect in the friend group. (If your friend group is largely a mature and reasonable one, it shouldn't. But only you know what the vibe of the group is.)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 2:21 PM on October 6, 2021 [28 favorites]
The problem is the way she acts when she's drinking. I completely agree with Balthamos -- see if you can see each other just when alcohol isn't a component. It might throw a wrench into the works if she doesn't want a friend who won't hang out with her when she's drinking...but it's the only way you can stay friends. It's okay to say, "I'm not that much of a drinker, and I have a better time with you when we're not drinking."
posted by wryly at 2:24 PM on October 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
posted by wryly at 2:24 PM on October 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
She is a messy drunk; you have more expectations of her than she seems to realize.
While it stings (and it does! you have my sympathy!), you can probably fix the second by ratcheting down those expectations to a level that seems more mutual; the first, unfortunately, is simply not something you can address. If she's the kind of woman who gets drunk and ditches her friend group to hang out with strange guys or flirts with your husband right in front of you, she is a messy mess mess--still needing to get drunk/seeking the "permission" of being drunk to do scary and/or borderline inappropriate things in your early 30s is a sign of either arrested development or incipient alcoholism--and nothing's going to change that on the time scale you need it to change.
No more evening socializing. Have lunch with her sometimes if you want, or chat on the phone. But anything else is just setting yourself up for unhappiness and maybe a healthy helping of codependence.
posted by praemunire at 2:48 PM on October 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
While it stings (and it does! you have my sympathy!), you can probably fix the second by ratcheting down those expectations to a level that seems more mutual; the first, unfortunately, is simply not something you can address. If she's the kind of woman who gets drunk and ditches her friend group to hang out with strange guys or flirts with your husband right in front of you, she is a messy mess mess--still needing to get drunk/seeking the "permission" of being drunk to do scary and/or borderline inappropriate things in your early 30s is a sign of either arrested development or incipient alcoholism--and nothing's going to change that on the time scale you need it to change.
No more evening socializing. Have lunch with her sometimes if you want, or chat on the phone. But anything else is just setting yourself up for unhappiness and maybe a healthy helping of codependence.
posted by praemunire at 2:48 PM on October 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
Your feelings are justified.
The crux of the matter appears to be she's not necessarily great at socializing at certain scales, and she's not a great drunk. I don't subscribe to the theory that alcohol somehow lets a person's "true self" out - I think it shuts down a lot of normal and rational and good decision-making and social behavior and risk-assessment functions, it is where some bad ideas are born rather than just freed from their normal sober cages - but I would put at least pocket change on this person maybe having some social anxiety they're treating with alcohol and then you kind of get the worst of both worlds: anxiety, bad decision-making, bad risk assessment/impulse control, and a very dampened ability to read a room.
Some friendships do have a no-go-zones in them. I know lots of people I like but I prefer only to spend time with them in specific contexts, with or without certain other people around, or in or out of the presence of various forms of stimuli that just don't seem to work for us.
I do think adult friendships mostly don't involve explicit negotiations about other people's behavior, you just choose your frequency, intensity, situations, and complicating factors as best you can to suit what works for you. That can mean, though, if she has the sort of personality/demons that you dwindle in her estimation if you won't party with her, not partying with her or staying as disengaged as possible when socializing in groups that include her and alcohol may cool the friendship naturally. (People and friendships come in all flavors, though - I've had a really great friend who I'd get ready to go out with, barely see or talk to until the end of the night, and then we'd spend a couple hours talking afterwards. We hung out in the day all the time, and for nights in, but she was generally busy with other things during party hours.)
posted by Lyn Never at 3:04 PM on October 6, 2021 [6 favorites]
The crux of the matter appears to be she's not necessarily great at socializing at certain scales, and she's not a great drunk. I don't subscribe to the theory that alcohol somehow lets a person's "true self" out - I think it shuts down a lot of normal and rational and good decision-making and social behavior and risk-assessment functions, it is where some bad ideas are born rather than just freed from their normal sober cages - but I would put at least pocket change on this person maybe having some social anxiety they're treating with alcohol and then you kind of get the worst of both worlds: anxiety, bad decision-making, bad risk assessment/impulse control, and a very dampened ability to read a room.
Some friendships do have a no-go-zones in them. I know lots of people I like but I prefer only to spend time with them in specific contexts, with or without certain other people around, or in or out of the presence of various forms of stimuli that just don't seem to work for us.
I do think adult friendships mostly don't involve explicit negotiations about other people's behavior, you just choose your frequency, intensity, situations, and complicating factors as best you can to suit what works for you. That can mean, though, if she has the sort of personality/demons that you dwindle in her estimation if you won't party with her, not partying with her or staying as disengaged as possible when socializing in groups that include her and alcohol may cool the friendship naturally. (People and friendships come in all flavors, though - I've had a really great friend who I'd get ready to go out with, barely see or talk to until the end of the night, and then we'd spend a couple hours talking afterwards. We hung out in the day all the time, and for nights in, but she was generally busy with other things during party hours.)
posted by Lyn Never at 3:04 PM on October 6, 2021 [6 favorites]
You have what she wants, but there is an age gap. I was in my forties in a neighborhood that gentrified all of a sudden with these successful people in their thirties. I viewed them as insufferable. You have room for close friendship commitment, she does not. She is on a social shopping spree. Feeling out your husband's intetest level, might even be her reason for friendship, husband hunting. Some people feel that with no children poaching a marriage is OK. Find someone with better friendship skills. The drinking is a ruse to act out and troll for takers. It would be worse if she had a boyfriend, she could get in even closer in a foursome.
posted by Oyéah at 3:08 PM on October 6, 2021
posted by Oyéah at 3:08 PM on October 6, 2021
Situation 1. In this one, it feels like you are being overly possessive. They went over to the bar. Could you have also gone over to the bar? Alternatively, you were left with another friend - not your bestie but if this person is also a "friend" then did you talk to them at all or mostly just seethe because you were feeling abandoned? (No judgement, I have done the same thing. But it's good to get an outside perspective on these things, right?)
Situation 2. The ganging up. SO not cool. But like others have said, she is not good on alcohol. This was bad and I would also feel bad. On the other hand, you are married and she is single and let me tell you, she is keenly aware of that fact, and it may affect how she feels about you sometimes. Maybe as a friend, sometimes you can let her get a couple digs in. Because being single can be really hard. And we're all doing the best we can.
Situation 3. I have to agree you're being judgy in this one. And reiterate that being single thing. I mean, I don't know any woman who would flirt with a guy she thought was "rapey", so she probably didn't think so at first. And your expecting gratitude is, well, a little unseemly. You did a good thing! But it was probably some combination of humiliating and embarrassing. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to make you feel bad. Being friends is hard. People are so complicated!
Situation 4. Flirting with your husband. That is bad. I'm sorry that happened. Did you happen to get your husband's opinion of it? It's possible he did not take it in quite the same way you did, particularly since you've just related a series of events where your friend was a bit shitty and you may have been looking for more shittiness? (I don't know, just throwing out the possibility.)
Situation 5. Turning her back on you. Ugh, that is so rude. This feels like she was angry at you about something. Maybe because you accused her of flirting with your husband but she didn't think she had done that? Maybe because she felt you were being possessive?
I don't know. I just want to caution you against throwing away a friendship that you mostly really enjoy. So much harder to make friends as you move through life. Keep em if you got em. But, that doesn't mean you have to hang out with them when they are drunk. That seems like a good compromise. Or you could try to just detach more when she is drinking, because this is how she is, and you accept her how she is because she is your friend, but you may want to limit your interaction with her at those times if you continue to attend drinking events with her.
This is the longest answer I have ever written! I hope a little of it is helpful.
posted by Glinn at 3:14 PM on October 6, 2021 [6 favorites]
Situation 2. The ganging up. SO not cool. But like others have said, she is not good on alcohol. This was bad and I would also feel bad. On the other hand, you are married and she is single and let me tell you, she is keenly aware of that fact, and it may affect how she feels about you sometimes. Maybe as a friend, sometimes you can let her get a couple digs in. Because being single can be really hard. And we're all doing the best we can.
Situation 3. I have to agree you're being judgy in this one. And reiterate that being single thing. I mean, I don't know any woman who would flirt with a guy she thought was "rapey", so she probably didn't think so at first. And your expecting gratitude is, well, a little unseemly. You did a good thing! But it was probably some combination of humiliating and embarrassing. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to make you feel bad. Being friends is hard. People are so complicated!
Situation 4. Flirting with your husband. That is bad. I'm sorry that happened. Did you happen to get your husband's opinion of it? It's possible he did not take it in quite the same way you did, particularly since you've just related a series of events where your friend was a bit shitty and you may have been looking for more shittiness? (I don't know, just throwing out the possibility.)
Situation 5. Turning her back on you. Ugh, that is so rude. This feels like she was angry at you about something. Maybe because you accused her of flirting with your husband but she didn't think she had done that? Maybe because she felt you were being possessive?
I don't know. I just want to caution you against throwing away a friendship that you mostly really enjoy. So much harder to make friends as you move through life. Keep em if you got em. But, that doesn't mean you have to hang out with them when they are drunk. That seems like a good compromise. Or you could try to just detach more when she is drinking, because this is how she is, and you accept her how she is because she is your friend, but you may want to limit your interaction with her at those times if you continue to attend drinking events with her.
This is the longest answer I have ever written! I hope a little of it is helpful.
posted by Glinn at 3:14 PM on October 6, 2021 [6 favorites]
Have you spoken to her about how you feel? Like *honestly*, without minimizing your feelings, and working all the way through till they're resolved (as opposed to mentioning something once and backing down immediately whether or not you really accept her explanation)?
Because THE best way to tank this friendship is to shove your feelings down and pretend everything is fine and continue to silently build up resentment against her for doing what she's going to keep doing.
posted by MiraK at 3:15 PM on October 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
Because THE best way to tank this friendship is to shove your feelings down and pretend everything is fine and continue to silently build up resentment against her for doing what she's going to keep doing.
posted by MiraK at 3:15 PM on October 6, 2021 [3 favorites]
I don't think your feelings are weird, first of all. I'm a kind of lonely and introverted type, and when I feel really close to a friend I hate for that friendship to end, especially because it usually means they liked me less than I liked them, or were less invested than I was, or at least had an easier time breaking up than I did.
I've been thinking a lot lately of a friend I thought I was pretty close to in college. We drifted apart without trauma, but when I look back, our friendship was largely dependent on me being tolerant of being made fun of. And I didn't really like it.
More recently an online friend who meant very, very much to me, whose friendship meant so much to me, totally ghosted me (and our whole friend group, she was going through some stuff, it's true). But when I look back ... I really thought we were much closer than we were. Apparently.
Anyway. I think just because someone's kind of mean to you and hurts your feelings, especially when they're a different kind of drunk than you are or more of a drunk than you are, it doesn't mean your friendship isn't real, but you have to decide whether it's worth it. You have an advantage over me, in that you are observing it now instead of later and kicking yourself. You can have lots, lots in common, similar senses of humor and wavelength, and those things do seem rare and precious, but it still doesn't necessarily make her a really good friend to you. I'm sorry about this.
posted by Occula at 3:18 PM on October 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
I've been thinking a lot lately of a friend I thought I was pretty close to in college. We drifted apart without trauma, but when I look back, our friendship was largely dependent on me being tolerant of being made fun of. And I didn't really like it.
More recently an online friend who meant very, very much to me, whose friendship meant so much to me, totally ghosted me (and our whole friend group, she was going through some stuff, it's true). But when I look back ... I really thought we were much closer than we were. Apparently.
Anyway. I think just because someone's kind of mean to you and hurts your feelings, especially when they're a different kind of drunk than you are or more of a drunk than you are, it doesn't mean your friendship isn't real, but you have to decide whether it's worth it. You have an advantage over me, in that you are observing it now instead of later and kicking yourself. You can have lots, lots in common, similar senses of humor and wavelength, and those things do seem rare and precious, but it still doesn't necessarily make her a really good friend to you. I'm sorry about this.
posted by Occula at 3:18 PM on October 6, 2021 [1 favorite]
The bad behavior requires alcohol to loosen inhibition, and other people. When drunk or near-drunk, she behaves in micro-(and not so micro) aggressions. They seem to involve her wanting to score points and gain status with others. This is typical of micro-aggressions. She may be or have been super-friendly to you as a new member of the group, wanting to cement a bond; you can wait to see if it's real.
BFFs are rare. The kind of true-blue, loyal, good best friend is a treasure. I would keep her as a (small f) friend, recognizing that she is not fun to be with, breaks promises when she's drinking. As I got older, I reduced my drinking; more than a few drinks brings out the worst or not-so-great in a lot of people. Is there any chance of seeing her in non-drinking situations to see what she's like? And maybe leave when drinking ramps up.
I've had 2 BFFs change behavior toward me in the last 10 years or so, pretty sure that my loss of a job with some status, and deep depression following a related bullying scenario and other events allowed that to happen. Don't let people be shitty to you; it makes them shittier. Read the Shamu article (there's a book, now, too) and always pull away from bad behavior/ reward - move closer to good behavior. There may be other friend candidates in the group.
posted by theora55 at 3:50 PM on October 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
BFFs are rare. The kind of true-blue, loyal, good best friend is a treasure. I would keep her as a (small f) friend, recognizing that she is not fun to be with, breaks promises when she's drinking. As I got older, I reduced my drinking; more than a few drinks brings out the worst or not-so-great in a lot of people. Is there any chance of seeing her in non-drinking situations to see what she's like? And maybe leave when drinking ramps up.
I've had 2 BFFs change behavior toward me in the last 10 years or so, pretty sure that my loss of a job with some status, and deep depression following a related bullying scenario and other events allowed that to happen. Don't let people be shitty to you; it makes them shittier. Read the Shamu article (there's a book, now, too) and always pull away from bad behavior/ reward - move closer to good behavior. There may be other friend candidates in the group.
posted by theora55 at 3:50 PM on October 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
I have a lot of empathy! I am navigating and struggling with friend-making in my late 30's as a single female as well. So I can appreciate the desire to cling to a new friend.
Gentle reminder: You've proven to yourself you CAN make friends. You can do it again. This was excellent practice and shows you the kind of friend you are looking for. Seeking somebody who is kind is not a big ask.
Cheering for you!
posted by Juniper Toast at 3:58 PM on October 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
Gentle reminder: You've proven to yourself you CAN make friends. You can do it again. This was excellent practice and shows you the kind of friend you are looking for. Seeking somebody who is kind is not a big ask.
Cheering for you!
posted by Juniper Toast at 3:58 PM on October 6, 2021 [7 favorites]
I don't drink too much anymore because I get very bad hangovers. But something I've noticed in my years of drinking is that there is (at least) two types of drunk people.
Some, like me, never QUITE lose themselves. I am less self conscious and a bit looser overall, but I have never made a decision when I was drunk that I really regretted. I can still think about things pretty clearly, and I think I act mostly in a way that I recognize as myself when drunk. I feel like most people fall in this category, and these are the people who tend to think that rude actions when you're drunk are things that you would do sober if not restrained by your soberness.
Others: DIFFERENT. I have a friend or two that are like DIFFERENT PEOPLE when they're drinking. Annoying! Rude! Violent! Mean! and like, it's not all negative or anything, they can be very fun, but they almost feel like a different person entirely, and I actually almost have to view them as a different person with a different friendship. I truly don't believe that these are people who are hiding their true selves normally, I just think alcohol reacts differently for them, and makes them into quite different people! Mostly this is fine once I'm aware of it, you can adjust your expectations on how you will be treated/what kind of night you're going to have when you go out with them, etc.
This doesn't necessarily always happen just with drinking, either. I have a friend who is overall great, but if we hang out in a group and there's a girl who he could POSSIBLY EVER date, he is totally intolerable.
Some friends don't work for certain contexts, and that's okay! Maybe you don't want be around your BFF when she's drinking (I stopped going out with my roommate in college because she would leave me at the bar and go home with someone without telling me and I was in a constant "responsible one" panic about it.) or maybe you can just be a bit softer with your friendship with her when she's drinking - once you get used to her doing things you don't think she wants to do when sober, maybe it will bother you less? Like, I highly doubt she wants to steal your husband, but maybe drunk-her DOES want to flirt with someone and feel attractive and your husband was the closest target?
As with all things, it's hard to say. Maybe she's great and just has this odd drunk persona you can adapt to, and maybe she's secretly a huge asshole and you're wasting your time with her. No one can know! But I don't like that many people, so when I find someone I do like, I tend to try to view them with softness and embrace as much of them as I can, and if I really can't, then try to remove myself from them in that context. Sometimes that's the whole friendship - sometimes it's just at the karaoke bar. ;)
I hope however you land that you are happier for it!
posted by euphoria066 at 4:24 PM on October 6, 2021 [11 favorites]
Some, like me, never QUITE lose themselves. I am less self conscious and a bit looser overall, but I have never made a decision when I was drunk that I really regretted. I can still think about things pretty clearly, and I think I act mostly in a way that I recognize as myself when drunk. I feel like most people fall in this category, and these are the people who tend to think that rude actions when you're drunk are things that you would do sober if not restrained by your soberness.
Others: DIFFERENT. I have a friend or two that are like DIFFERENT PEOPLE when they're drinking. Annoying! Rude! Violent! Mean! and like, it's not all negative or anything, they can be very fun, but they almost feel like a different person entirely, and I actually almost have to view them as a different person with a different friendship. I truly don't believe that these are people who are hiding their true selves normally, I just think alcohol reacts differently for them, and makes them into quite different people! Mostly this is fine once I'm aware of it, you can adjust your expectations on how you will be treated/what kind of night you're going to have when you go out with them, etc.
This doesn't necessarily always happen just with drinking, either. I have a friend who is overall great, but if we hang out in a group and there's a girl who he could POSSIBLY EVER date, he is totally intolerable.
Some friends don't work for certain contexts, and that's okay! Maybe you don't want be around your BFF when she's drinking (I stopped going out with my roommate in college because she would leave me at the bar and go home with someone without telling me and I was in a constant "responsible one" panic about it.) or maybe you can just be a bit softer with your friendship with her when she's drinking - once you get used to her doing things you don't think she wants to do when sober, maybe it will bother you less? Like, I highly doubt she wants to steal your husband, but maybe drunk-her DOES want to flirt with someone and feel attractive and your husband was the closest target?
As with all things, it's hard to say. Maybe she's great and just has this odd drunk persona you can adapt to, and maybe she's secretly a huge asshole and you're wasting your time with her. No one can know! But I don't like that many people, so when I find someone I do like, I tend to try to view them with softness and embrace as much of them as I can, and if I really can't, then try to remove myself from them in that context. Sometimes that's the whole friendship - sometimes it's just at the karaoke bar. ;)
I hope however you land that you are happier for it!
posted by euphoria066 at 4:24 PM on October 6, 2021 [11 favorites]
On the other hand, you are married and she is single and let me tell you, she is keenly aware of that fact
ha ha what the fuck
The drinking is a ruse to act out and troll for takers. It would be worse if she had a boyfriend, she could get in even closer in a foursome.
ha ha WHAT the fuck
she is a messy mess mess-
what the FUCK though.
back to the "keenly aware" business because it is the most benign of the various projections: I went back and reread the whole saga just in case there was something I missed, but there was not. indeed, the only part of it that seems unequivocally clear is that not only is she having some fun being single, she is having, in the OP's opinion, a good deal too much fun with it.
these are two human beings. despite that, half of everybody is determined to read this as liz taylor in who's afraid of virginia woolf getting mad at glenn close in fatal attraction, and take sides accordingly. that is bizarre as all hell and it's not the first time a regular ordinary interpersonal issue has provoked this spread of amazing creative interpretations because both parties are women. the wisest thing to do, OP, is to watch out for any tendency in yourself to interpret her behavior as characteristic of some type of woman. to your credit you are mostly not doing that, but to your discredit you are seeming to hope her secret heart is exactly like yours and to be bothered every time she is revealed to not be just like you. but that ground has been well covered.
at any age, one of the perks of having a friend a decade older than you is you get to feel like the young, energetic, cool one, even when you are old enough to know better. so maybe she is taking advantage of that feeling a little too much, at your expense. I don't think this is any worse than an annoyance, but how much you mind is ultimately up to you. the best thing that could happen would be for a peppy 21 yr old to latch onto her and make her feel staid and conservative and confused for a while. in the meantime, just try not to expect her to be thinking of you when you're out in a group and not alone together. it might be nice but it is not realistic.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:53 PM on October 6, 2021 [27 favorites]
ha ha what the fuck
The drinking is a ruse to act out and troll for takers. It would be worse if she had a boyfriend, she could get in even closer in a foursome.
ha ha WHAT the fuck
she is a messy mess mess-
what the FUCK though.
back to the "keenly aware" business because it is the most benign of the various projections: I went back and reread the whole saga just in case there was something I missed, but there was not. indeed, the only part of it that seems unequivocally clear is that not only is she having some fun being single, she is having, in the OP's opinion, a good deal too much fun with it.
these are two human beings. despite that, half of everybody is determined to read this as liz taylor in who's afraid of virginia woolf getting mad at glenn close in fatal attraction, and take sides accordingly. that is bizarre as all hell and it's not the first time a regular ordinary interpersonal issue has provoked this spread of amazing creative interpretations because both parties are women. the wisest thing to do, OP, is to watch out for any tendency in yourself to interpret her behavior as characteristic of some type of woman. to your credit you are mostly not doing that, but to your discredit you are seeming to hope her secret heart is exactly like yours and to be bothered every time she is revealed to not be just like you. but that ground has been well covered.
at any age, one of the perks of having a friend a decade older than you is you get to feel like the young, energetic, cool one, even when you are old enough to know better. so maybe she is taking advantage of that feeling a little too much, at your expense. I don't think this is any worse than an annoyance, but how much you mind is ultimately up to you. the best thing that could happen would be for a peppy 21 yr old to latch onto her and make her feel staid and conservative and confused for a while. in the meantime, just try not to expect her to be thinking of you when you're out in a group and not alone together. it might be nice but it is not realistic.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:53 PM on October 6, 2021 [27 favorites]
"...is this friendship salvageable?"
What friendship? She is not your friend.
posted by Dolley at 4:56 PM on October 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
What friendship? She is not your friend.
posted by Dolley at 4:56 PM on October 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
Nah, it's fine. It's just that your friend is stupid when she gets drunk. The easy solution is to leave just before she gets to that stage. You can stick around when she has one drink, maybe two, but when the third drink gets poured it's time to ditch her.
Some people - actually a lot of people - are best avoided after they have had a few drinks. Nothing she did was obviously malicious, just socially inept. It's probably quite safe to still hang out with her when she isn't drinking because it is unlikely that getting drunk is revealing her character to be actually mean, or that she dislikes you. Her sober self is her true self; her drunk self has bad judgement. If you don't want to experience the consequences of a drunk's bad judgement then back off as soon as she starts to show the affect of what she is consuming.
posted by Jane the Brown at 5:41 PM on October 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
Some people - actually a lot of people - are best avoided after they have had a few drinks. Nothing she did was obviously malicious, just socially inept. It's probably quite safe to still hang out with her when she isn't drinking because it is unlikely that getting drunk is revealing her character to be actually mean, or that she dislikes you. Her sober self is her true self; her drunk self has bad judgement. If you don't want to experience the consequences of a drunk's bad judgement then back off as soon as she starts to show the affect of what she is consuming.
posted by Jane the Brown at 5:41 PM on October 6, 2021 [5 favorites]
Hmm. So, in my experience it's actually quite common to have a sort of lopsided friendship where the energy one person is putting in is that of a lovely "regular" friendship, and the other person is putting in the energy of the type of intimate friendship that almost resembles platonic romance-- let's call it a "best" friendship since that's the term you used. I think the thing that really sets these modes of friendship apart from one another is, for lack of a better word, devotion; the expectation (usually unspoken, which is why this is so hard to navigate) that this other person will train their attention and energy on you above others. And a friendship can be so deep or rich in other ways without having this aspect! In my life, a friend not becoming "best" in this way actually is not usually about that person at all. The level of commitment involved in these best friendships means I don't generally have emotional space to add one, even if I click wonderfully together with someone and we end up great "regular" friends-- the same way I've made a certain commitment to my romantic partner, and I'm not looking at new people I meet as potential partners no matter how hot or fun or kind they are. (And I'm sure that much as polyamory works for many, there are also people who have the emotional capacity to add a great number of these "best" friends!)
Anyway, where I'm going with this is that I see this distinction in a lot of the scenarios you describe. When I think of my very few "best" friends, I can definitely picture one of us or the other feeling slightly hurt by the other not sticking around for their turn at karaoke. But with all my other friends, it wouldn't even occur to me to expect that of them and I'd be surprised if they expected that of me. I think the big takeaway here, for me, is that a "regular" friendship isn't actually just a deprecated version of a "best" friendship, and the difference between the two is not necessarily based on any particular evaluation of your qualities as a friend.
posted by dusty potato at 5:48 PM on October 6, 2021 [15 favorites]
Anyway, where I'm going with this is that I see this distinction in a lot of the scenarios you describe. When I think of my very few "best" friends, I can definitely picture one of us or the other feeling slightly hurt by the other not sticking around for their turn at karaoke. But with all my other friends, it wouldn't even occur to me to expect that of them and I'd be surprised if they expected that of me. I think the big takeaway here, for me, is that a "regular" friendship isn't actually just a deprecated version of a "best" friendship, and the difference between the two is not necessarily based on any particular evaluation of your qualities as a friend.
posted by dusty potato at 5:48 PM on October 6, 2021 [15 favorites]
Or, I mean, some people have wildly different boundaries and expectations for what is appropriate to do with someone who is not single, and maybe in her drunken haze she chanced what felt like an innocuous touch and accidentally crossed a boundary? I get it--it definitely sounds like she was pushing inappropriate at best, but the amount of judgment at this woman for what feels like relatively innocuous slights feels out of proportion and a little shamey in a gross way to me. Let's maybe not call her names in the process of answering OP's question.
I can't imagine actually being upset with a friend for not clapping for my karaoke performance or turning their back to me to talk to someone else. Is she not allowed to talk to other people? Is she required to face you at all times?
The victim blamey tone when talking about how she was flirting with a guy who is "rapey" also strikes a huge nerve with me. Who the hell cares who she flirts with? This ventures way too close to a "she asked for it" rhetoric for me. If she had been harmed by that man in any capacity it would not be because she put herself there by flirting with the wrong guy. It would be because he is a predator who hurts others. And this notion that you're entitled to "gratitude" for helping her? Yeah, that's not how it works. She needed help and your role in that moment is to be there and not expect anything in return. The knowledge that your friend is safe should be enough.
Look, we all have our stuff. Your friend can be insensitive when drunk and get messy at times. OP, gently, you seem like you can be judgmental and somewhat entitled at times. And that's ok! Sometimes I am judgmental and sometimes I am insensitive and I have gotten messy drunk on more than one occasion. The beautiful thing about friendship is that you see this other human with all of their faults and as long as they are not harming you or anyone else you show them grace. You forgive small misdoings. You overlook. You forget.
And if you love them enough and they hurt your feelings one day you talk about it kindly and gently but firmly. If they listen and things improve you move forward from there wiser and stronger together. If nothing changes then you may need to start letting this person go, which is hard but ok too. Friendship is so fluid, easily the most fluid human relationship, and learning to embrace the way it constantly changes and ebbs and flows is all apart of the ride.
OP, I would encourage you to really look critically at your expectations of this person and ask yourself whether or not they are reasonable. I'd also encourage you to look inward and determine whether you may have some insecurities that are being projected onto this situation and person. Should you decide to approach her I would strongly encourage you to do it from a place of wanting to find a happy medium, reach a mutual solution, and move forward together. What happens next is in her court.
posted by Amy93 at 6:35 PM on October 6, 2021 [17 favorites]
I can't imagine actually being upset with a friend for not clapping for my karaoke performance or turning their back to me to talk to someone else. Is she not allowed to talk to other people? Is she required to face you at all times?
The victim blamey tone when talking about how she was flirting with a guy who is "rapey" also strikes a huge nerve with me. Who the hell cares who she flirts with? This ventures way too close to a "she asked for it" rhetoric for me. If she had been harmed by that man in any capacity it would not be because she put herself there by flirting with the wrong guy. It would be because he is a predator who hurts others. And this notion that you're entitled to "gratitude" for helping her? Yeah, that's not how it works. She needed help and your role in that moment is to be there and not expect anything in return. The knowledge that your friend is safe should be enough.
Look, we all have our stuff. Your friend can be insensitive when drunk and get messy at times. OP, gently, you seem like you can be judgmental and somewhat entitled at times. And that's ok! Sometimes I am judgmental and sometimes I am insensitive and I have gotten messy drunk on more than one occasion. The beautiful thing about friendship is that you see this other human with all of their faults and as long as they are not harming you or anyone else you show them grace. You forgive small misdoings. You overlook. You forget.
And if you love them enough and they hurt your feelings one day you talk about it kindly and gently but firmly. If they listen and things improve you move forward from there wiser and stronger together. If nothing changes then you may need to start letting this person go, which is hard but ok too. Friendship is so fluid, easily the most fluid human relationship, and learning to embrace the way it constantly changes and ebbs and flows is all apart of the ride.
OP, I would encourage you to really look critically at your expectations of this person and ask yourself whether or not they are reasonable. I'd also encourage you to look inward and determine whether you may have some insecurities that are being projected onto this situation and person. Should you decide to approach her I would strongly encourage you to do it from a place of wanting to find a happy medium, reach a mutual solution, and move forward together. What happens next is in her court.
posted by Amy93 at 6:35 PM on October 6, 2021 [17 favorites]
Once, a decade or so ago, I had a friend who sounds like you. She was really lovely, funny and caring, and she really liked me and wanted to be friends with me. At first I liked her, too, but over time I started to feel more and more like she wanted more from me than I could give. I started to feel like she was a bit 'relationshippy' with me - not that she wanted to be with me in an intimate relationship, but some of her expectations of me were just too much for a friendship. She was possessive and demanding of my time, and expected certain things from me that I didn't even know she wanted. I know people have different needs, but she just needed too much from me. I like seeing my friends once a week or once a fortnight. I don't need heaps of contact in between, and if I'm at a party I will talk to who I want to and spend my time how I want to. I get the majority of my emotional support from my husband and immediate family. Anyway, my friend just wanted way more from the friendship than I was willing to give, and I ended up hurting her a lot by telling her I didn't want to be friends anymore. I don't think there's anything wrong with you wanting a best friend, but I think it's likely that she just doesn't see friendship in those terms because a lot of adults don't.
Also, I personally do not think you should have deep and meaningful conversations about friend boundaries and expectations. I know some people love this, but it would be too much for me and honestly I would probably do a slow fade if someone started doing this to me. I'm not saying that's right, but I bet a significant proportion of people feel the same way.
posted by thereader at 8:26 PM on October 6, 2021 [26 favorites]
Also, I personally do not think you should have deep and meaningful conversations about friend boundaries and expectations. I know some people love this, but it would be too much for me and honestly I would probably do a slow fade if someone started doing this to me. I'm not saying that's right, but I bet a significant proportion of people feel the same way.
posted by thereader at 8:26 PM on October 6, 2021 [26 favorites]
The main takeaway from this, is that when you have this range of opinions, for something pretty subjective, then at the very least, it's not a clear cut case of her being unmistakably wrong.
Honestly, my read is that this is a you-thing.
You seem to be expecting the same amount of close attention, validation and one on one time at large drunken parties while hanging out with a lot of people, as you do during smaller one on one hangouts?
That doesn't even make sense to me as an expectation.
If you are still feeling good about your friendship when you are in smaller groups, or hanging out with her personally, then great! You still have a great friendship!
I have had very close BFFs where we didn't even go to parties together! Clearly we are still really close friends!
Even if I have very close friends who I do attend parties or festivals, I tend to think of large social gatherings as a chance to meet new people or catch up with people I don't normally see, not hang out with the people I see all the time or would like to chat with one on one.
I have friends and we go to festivals together - by which I mean, we all scatter to the winds, and then come back and decompress/review the festival with each other.
So yeah, the only thing I'm seeing as a problem is that you expect to be the main focus of her attention when at large social gatherings, as well as in your day to day life, and that's really not how a lot of people interact at large gatherings.
posted by Elysum at 8:34 PM on October 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
Honestly, my read is that this is a you-thing.
You seem to be expecting the same amount of close attention, validation and one on one time at large drunken parties while hanging out with a lot of people, as you do during smaller one on one hangouts?
That doesn't even make sense to me as an expectation.
If you are still feeling good about your friendship when you are in smaller groups, or hanging out with her personally, then great! You still have a great friendship!
I have had very close BFFs where we didn't even go to parties together! Clearly we are still really close friends!
Even if I have very close friends who I do attend parties or festivals, I tend to think of large social gatherings as a chance to meet new people or catch up with people I don't normally see, not hang out with the people I see all the time or would like to chat with one on one.
I have friends and we go to festivals together - by which I mean, we all scatter to the winds, and then come back and decompress/review the festival with each other.
So yeah, the only thing I'm seeing as a problem is that you expect to be the main focus of her attention when at large social gatherings, as well as in your day to day life, and that's really not how a lot of people interact at large gatherings.
posted by Elysum at 8:34 PM on October 6, 2021 [4 favorites]
yeah, the way you felt when she turned physically towards a new person in the group & you interpreted it as turning her back on you (which I'm sure it was, technically and literally, because if you're sitting between two people and you want to talk to one of them, that's just how being a three-dimensional body in space works)--? that is how the rest of the group has been feeling, if they are as sensitive as you, whenever the two of you exchange knowing looks or get into private conversations in the middle of a crowded bar, or whatever it is you habitually do that has led you to believe you "secretly" like each other best.
I am not saying this to make you feel guilty, because it's not likely that the rest of the group is as sensitive as you. it's not likely that the rest of them are hurt. it's hardly a crime to prefer one person to most other people. but I am saying it to underline that there's no such thing as a "secret" sense that the two of you are ineffably different and a pair apart and more in tune with each other than the rest of them. That kind of thing always shows & broadcasts itself, and the people involved rarely realize.
you appear to have found a pretty easy-going group that isn't gossipy or sensitive enough to care. but if you're right that the connection has been mutual, you bet everybody else noticed the two of you forming a private club of two in the midst of the larger circle. and just possibly, that is why she has been more abrasive recently, because she realized that & is trying to back out and stop favoring you in a way that excludes everyone else. you never know.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:14 PM on October 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
I am not saying this to make you feel guilty, because it's not likely that the rest of the group is as sensitive as you. it's not likely that the rest of them are hurt. it's hardly a crime to prefer one person to most other people. but I am saying it to underline that there's no such thing as a "secret" sense that the two of you are ineffably different and a pair apart and more in tune with each other than the rest of them. That kind of thing always shows & broadcasts itself, and the people involved rarely realize.
you appear to have found a pretty easy-going group that isn't gossipy or sensitive enough to care. but if you're right that the connection has been mutual, you bet everybody else noticed the two of you forming a private club of two in the midst of the larger circle. and just possibly, that is why she has been more abrasive recently, because she realized that & is trying to back out and stop favoring you in a way that excludes everyone else. you never know.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:14 PM on October 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
leaving me and one other friend alone at the table. After a while I went looking for them
.....the two of you went looking, you mean, right? you didn't just ditch this other person all by their lonesome, right?
you didn't let on that you thought this other friend's company was basically a worthless commodity without extra people and one person in particular there to pep up the table, right?
because one could interpret this whole story as you treating all the other people who think they're your friends as disposable and interchangeable and not socially valuable, and thus incapable of being accidentally hurt by you or your disregard in the very same way you are being hurt by the would-be-BFF's disregard of you. which would be very uncool.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:30 PM on October 6, 2021 [14 favorites]
.....the two of you went looking, you mean, right? you didn't just ditch this other person all by their lonesome, right?
you didn't let on that you thought this other friend's company was basically a worthless commodity without extra people and one person in particular there to pep up the table, right?
because one could interpret this whole story as you treating all the other people who think they're your friends as disposable and interchangeable and not socially valuable, and thus incapable of being accidentally hurt by you or your disregard in the very same way you are being hurt by the would-be-BFF's disregard of you. which would be very uncool.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:30 PM on October 6, 2021 [14 favorites]
I feel this is a "Doctor, it hurts when I do this / Well don't do that!" situation.
When you get to the part of the evening where you can tell she's drunk and it's not going to be fun for you, say you're tired and leave. I have friends I have learned to do that with. It's obviously disappointing when you want an evening out and instead you get a half-evening. Maybe this has no effect on the friendship other than making you happier; maybe it cools it down. Her reaction to it isn't really in your control.
Obviously if she's putting herself in danger (the rapey guys, or no other friends around and too drunk to get home) you can't do that. If this happens a lot then maybe don't do any evening stuff at all. I had a work friend--I really liked the guy--but if we were at a happy hour I would leave by 6 PM or so just to be 100% sure I wasn't stuck with drunken drama.
posted by mark k at 11:34 PM on October 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
When you get to the part of the evening where you can tell she's drunk and it's not going to be fun for you, say you're tired and leave. I have friends I have learned to do that with. It's obviously disappointing when you want an evening out and instead you get a half-evening. Maybe this has no effect on the friendship other than making you happier; maybe it cools it down. Her reaction to it isn't really in your control.
Obviously if she's putting herself in danger (the rapey guys, or no other friends around and too drunk to get home) you can't do that. If this happens a lot then maybe don't do any evening stuff at all. I had a work friend--I really liked the guy--but if we were at a happy hour I would leave by 6 PM or so just to be 100% sure I wasn't stuck with drunken drama.
posted by mark k at 11:34 PM on October 6, 2021 [2 favorites]
I think you might get a lot out of exploring attachment styles and thinking about how they apply to you and friendships. For me, the joy of a bff being at the same party has often been that we only spend a bit of time together but then we have tons to talk about in the coming weeks while we text about what we did and talked about apart. Or the joy is being the last one around who helps clean the kitchen. But very rarely at a party would I spend most of my time and attention on someone I already have a close/good relationship with, because that’s not really what a group setting is for (for me!).
I suspect that your husband has been your bff for so long that your expectations of how close friendship works have shifted. With the two of you, you probably have some reasonable expectation that you’ll be involved closely for most of the night. This is PURE conjecture on my part, but - you seem to be expecting the same sort of monogamy from a very new friend.
Friend crushes are real, and they’re weird because they’re rarely full of relationship expectation setting. You sound like you may be neglecting the rest of your friend group with your intense focus and might benefit from reorienting yourself in group settings. Tend your garden of relationships and make sure you form GENUINE connections with the other people around you. It’ll help so much.
posted by Bottlecap at 12:30 AM on October 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
I suspect that your husband has been your bff for so long that your expectations of how close friendship works have shifted. With the two of you, you probably have some reasonable expectation that you’ll be involved closely for most of the night. This is PURE conjecture on my part, but - you seem to be expecting the same sort of monogamy from a very new friend.
Friend crushes are real, and they’re weird because they’re rarely full of relationship expectation setting. You sound like you may be neglecting the rest of your friend group with your intense focus and might benefit from reorienting yourself in group settings. Tend your garden of relationships and make sure you form GENUINE connections with the other people around you. It’ll help so much.
posted by Bottlecap at 12:30 AM on October 7, 2021 [6 favorites]
Your friend sounds like she uses alcohol to help her cover up or overcome her social anxiety. She seems to over compensate.
I think you and her can have a BFF type friendship if you don't go out drinking with her in larger groups.
Are you looking for a BFF, a drinking buddy, or both? I don't think given your feelings and friendship style it can be both. I think you need to choose one or the other. Sounds to me like BFF is your best option, but only you can make that decision.
posted by AugustWest at 12:51 AM on October 7, 2021
I think you and her can have a BFF type friendship if you don't go out drinking with her in larger groups.
Are you looking for a BFF, a drinking buddy, or both? I don't think given your feelings and friendship style it can be both. I think you need to choose one or the other. Sounds to me like BFF is your best option, but only you can make that decision.
posted by AugustWest at 12:51 AM on October 7, 2021
People are a package deal. We don't get to pick and choose the bits of them we like and the bits that we don't; that's just not how people work.
One of the nice things about friends, as opposed to housemates, is that we do get to pick and choose the circumstances in which we hang out with them.
If you get on super well with this person when she's not hammered, but you don't when she is, then the simple solution - it seems to me - would simply be not to hang out with her in circumstances where she's likely to get hammered.
You can't stop her from enjoying going out and getting mean drunk. But if she doesn't have the opportunity while mean drunk to say nasty things to you that hurt your feelings, then she won't say nasty things to you and your feelings won't get hurt.
posted by flabdablet at 2:09 AM on October 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
One of the nice things about friends, as opposed to housemates, is that we do get to pick and choose the circumstances in which we hang out with them.
If you get on super well with this person when she's not hammered, but you don't when she is, then the simple solution - it seems to me - would simply be not to hang out with her in circumstances where she's likely to get hammered.
You can't stop her from enjoying going out and getting mean drunk. But if she doesn't have the opportunity while mean drunk to say nasty things to you that hurt your feelings, then she won't say nasty things to you and your feelings won't get hurt.
posted by flabdablet at 2:09 AM on October 7, 2021 [3 favorites]
She is not a great friend. You have far too many not communicated expectations, which may be too high, especially for a new friend in a group situation.
In general, this all IS a lot of drama. Prior to reading, I presumed it would be about like flaking on plans, or being late. It’s not just the type of big social outings and parties, though they are often magnets for drama. Excessive drinking, immature group dynamics, weird rules and hierarchies, inappropriate flirting, lack of personal responsibility for behavior, etc.
I would suggest you take a step back. Figure out what you want in any social dynamics, if those expectations are fair and possible, and how to go about finding that balance.
posted by Crystalinne at 3:04 AM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
In general, this all IS a lot of drama. Prior to reading, I presumed it would be about like flaking on plans, or being late. It’s not just the type of big social outings and parties, though they are often magnets for drama. Excessive drinking, immature group dynamics, weird rules and hierarchies, inappropriate flirting, lack of personal responsibility for behavior, etc.
I would suggest you take a step back. Figure out what you want in any social dynamics, if those expectations are fair and possible, and how to go about finding that balance.
posted by Crystalinne at 3:04 AM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
So I hear you longing for a BFF. What happens if you reframe this person just as a friend and reduce your expectations and labels? I don’t love that she hasn’t been kind. I think your desire for a specific best friend is putting a lot of pressure on this relationship.
posted by bluedaisy at 6:40 AM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by bluedaisy at 6:40 AM on October 7, 2021 [2 favorites]
There are many comments and oregano's this is covered but I just wanted to say drinking can also bring out anxiety/insecurity in a lot of people. I recognize some bits of that in the way she seems to be chasing whatever shiny sorts of new attention are out there when she's drunk.
posted by Lady Li at 7:57 AM on October 7, 2021
posted by Lady Li at 7:57 AM on October 7, 2021
I feel compelled to say that, unlike most commenters, I interpreted " is really ungrateful for at the time" to mean that the friend was too drunk or oblivious to realize they were in danger or in an impending unpleasant situation and resisted/resented Anon's rescue of her, not that she didn't thank Anon effusively enough or something like that.
posted by Occula at 8:48 AM on October 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
posted by Occula at 8:48 AM on October 7, 2021 [9 favorites]
I think with new friendships, if you're looking for a BFF (a completely valid goal!) you kind of have to have a similar attitude towards it as you would with dating. ie, you may fall head-over-heels in platonic love with someone, but you're still getting to know them, and it takes time to really know who they are. When I meet someone I click with, I'll treat them like a potential BFF (I'm one of those people with more than one) but I think close, deep friendship has to work on different levels, depending on your emotional needs. For me, it's not just about having a good time with someone and connecting around important things, it's also about whether or not I can count on them, how well we're able to set and maintain healthy boundaries with each other, and so on. And that's stuff that really only becomes apparent over time.
It seems like this person and you really click on some important levels, but there are some areas where you very much do not, and you're feeling hurt about that. I do think it's ok for really close friends to not click in every way. The person I call my best friend is SUPER different from me in a lot of ways. We have very different lifestyles and priorities. And when we were younger, we did actually hurt each other a few times because of that. But as we've gotten older, it's become easier for both of us to just live our lives and connect over the things we have in common.
The key is that even though we have different lives and priorities, we're able to appreciate and respect each other. And it kind of sounds like what is coming into play here is that you at least (and possibly your friend) are not really able to do that right now, but I wonder if you could? Could you just accept that she's in a stage of her life where she wants to go out and party and talk to lots of people and flirt with dirtbaggy guys? You don't have to go to bars with her even. And can she respect that you're married? I don't know! But I do think it's one of those things where if you just give it a try on your end, you'll very quickly learn if you're comfortable with it.
One other thing: you say she's not an alcoholic, but honestly, I don't think you know enough to say one way or another. It is always a red flag to me when a full-grown adult drinks regularly AND is a completely different person when they're drinking. I only say this because there is a certain kind of alcoholic who can be very charismatic and engage in a platonic version of lovebombing, but be very erratic and unreliable as a friend, and I just want you to be aware that this is a thing that can happen.
posted by lunasol at 12:44 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
It seems like this person and you really click on some important levels, but there are some areas where you very much do not, and you're feeling hurt about that. I do think it's ok for really close friends to not click in every way. The person I call my best friend is SUPER different from me in a lot of ways. We have very different lifestyles and priorities. And when we were younger, we did actually hurt each other a few times because of that. But as we've gotten older, it's become easier for both of us to just live our lives and connect over the things we have in common.
The key is that even though we have different lives and priorities, we're able to appreciate and respect each other. And it kind of sounds like what is coming into play here is that you at least (and possibly your friend) are not really able to do that right now, but I wonder if you could? Could you just accept that she's in a stage of her life where she wants to go out and party and talk to lots of people and flirt with dirtbaggy guys? You don't have to go to bars with her even. And can she respect that you're married? I don't know! But I do think it's one of those things where if you just give it a try on your end, you'll very quickly learn if you're comfortable with it.
One other thing: you say she's not an alcoholic, but honestly, I don't think you know enough to say one way or another. It is always a red flag to me when a full-grown adult drinks regularly AND is a completely different person when they're drinking. I only say this because there is a certain kind of alcoholic who can be very charismatic and engage in a platonic version of lovebombing, but be very erratic and unreliable as a friend, and I just want you to be aware that this is a thing that can happen.
posted by lunasol at 12:44 PM on October 7, 2021 [1 favorite]
the friend was too drunk or oblivious to realize they were in danger or in an impending unpleasant situation and resisted/resented Anon's rescue of her,
this is what I thought, with the understanding that if it is accurate, """rescue""" deserves all the scare quotes and then some. being forcefully Rescued from trying to get yourself laid by a friend who thinks they are acting for the best is the kind of frustrating experience we can all forgive and forget, because it comes from a place of such good and brave intentions and we never want to alienate someone who's trying to look out for us. but it does require the kind of iron will and self-command that is more likely to come out the next morning than at the time.
the OP says the friend later apologized for being a jerk, which is the kind of very gracious thing you say when you remember saying some unkind things to your interfering friend. not so much the kind of thing that's adequate or even appropriate to say when you realize in hindsight that you were about to be sexually assaulted and they bravely saved you. so, you know, maybe she didn't quite understand what OP was getting at or it was all fuzzy in her memory, or maybe she did understand and remember and just disagreed.
OP did the only right thing as she saw it, clearly. and if you have a strong feeling about that kind of situation you have no choice but to act on it, there's no other option. but, and it sucks because you have to step in if you're worried, you can be wrong. and if that happens, you still deserve the warm glow of knowing you're a good person, because you are, but the other person is probably going to be more gracious about it than grateful.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:32 PM on October 7, 2021
this is what I thought, with the understanding that if it is accurate, """rescue""" deserves all the scare quotes and then some. being forcefully Rescued from trying to get yourself laid by a friend who thinks they are acting for the best is the kind of frustrating experience we can all forgive and forget, because it comes from a place of such good and brave intentions and we never want to alienate someone who's trying to look out for us. but it does require the kind of iron will and self-command that is more likely to come out the next morning than at the time.
the OP says the friend later apologized for being a jerk, which is the kind of very gracious thing you say when you remember saying some unkind things to your interfering friend. not so much the kind of thing that's adequate or even appropriate to say when you realize in hindsight that you were about to be sexually assaulted and they bravely saved you. so, you know, maybe she didn't quite understand what OP was getting at or it was all fuzzy in her memory, or maybe she did understand and remember and just disagreed.
OP did the only right thing as she saw it, clearly. and if you have a strong feeling about that kind of situation you have no choice but to act on it, there's no other option. but, and it sucks because you have to step in if you're worried, you can be wrong. and if that happens, you still deserve the warm glow of knowing you're a good person, because you are, but the other person is probably going to be more gracious about it than grateful.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:32 PM on October 7, 2021
In my early 30s, when I got drunk I would sometimes feel like certain BFFs of mine were a little stiff and gravitate towards others. Ten years later, those BFFs are all still in my life and those others aren't. That said, they were my BFFs whereas I'm not positive you're hers (would she say that you are?), and we did a lot to solidify that -- lots and lots of one on one hang outs, helping with life stuff (packing / moving), phone calls, etc.
posted by slidell at 3:33 AM on October 8, 2021
posted by slidell at 3:33 AM on October 8, 2021
^ By the way, I'm not exactly proud of that, as I imagine I was probably insensitive, but also, we were such solid BFFs, and generally not in alcohol infused settings, that I think it was pretty easy for them to see it as situational or at worst have to roll their eyes. But I might ask one of these days. My sense is that you might want to increase the one on one non-drinking time together?
posted by slidell at 4:28 AM on October 8, 2021
posted by slidell at 4:28 AM on October 8, 2021
I have a slightly different take which could be a million miles off. But if it’s close to home, it might help you. I’m bisexual and before I realized I was into women, my friendships with women I was actually into romantically/sexually were very difficult and disappointing. Also, the “we’re x and you’re not”/“actually I am x” has a familiar ring.
In any event, the person you value drinks, and this is how she acts when she drinks. It’s totally valid to remove yourself from that part of things.
posted by kapers at 7:56 PM on October 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
In any event, the person you value drinks, and this is how she acts when she drinks. It’s totally valid to remove yourself from that part of things.
posted by kapers at 7:56 PM on October 8, 2021 [2 favorites]
It sounds like she becomes self-centered when she drinks. It's not a great trait but now that you know it you can act accordingly. I once used to go to social events and bars and parties with an older unmarried friend and at one point we actually did have a conversation about how I could be a better "wingman" for her because I had kind of messed up some prospects a time or two. I was oblivious to my affect in those situations and was able to be more aware of it in the future. And by being aware, it included at least once turning my back on her and the prospect at a bar and pretending to be into talking to someone else!
I'm not saying this is exactly your issue but it's not uncommon for people to drink too much and do stupid things and act out and be self-centered. You aren't at that place in your life and so this is not a fun activity for you. I agree with others, if you want to maintain the good parts of your friendship, decline to be a part of these kinds of events with her or just know that she's "on the hunt" when you all are partying (for fun, for guys, for wild experiences, or whatever). You can be a helper if she calls for you if you're up for that but cultivate other friends for party nights. I bet there are more people on your wavelength at these things than you think.
posted by amanda at 12:05 PM on October 9, 2021
I'm not saying this is exactly your issue but it's not uncommon for people to drink too much and do stupid things and act out and be self-centered. You aren't at that place in your life and so this is not a fun activity for you. I agree with others, if you want to maintain the good parts of your friendship, decline to be a part of these kinds of events with her or just know that she's "on the hunt" when you all are partying (for fun, for guys, for wild experiences, or whatever). You can be a helper if she calls for you if you're up for that but cultivate other friends for party nights. I bet there are more people on your wavelength at these things than you think.
posted by amanda at 12:05 PM on October 9, 2021
OP, I just want to say first that I (female, early 30s) really resonate with your desire for a best friend.
I don’t have a lot of family (like you, I’m married but childless AND an only child in my family of origin to boot!) and so I really value, nurture and invest in the non-family bonds in my life. I don’t think there’s anything inherently weird, possessive or not-adult-like in wanting a best friend. In fact, I often think that people who have kids and grandkids and lots of siblings, etc, don’t really get what it’s like to not have a lot of readily available, societally sanctioned social connections. Like…I love my husband but he is literally one person and I don’t want him to be my whole world. And my cat doesn’t really reply when I talk to him, you know? At least, not yet. Stay tuned.
I have a best friend who lives 3000km from me but we chat weekly and take an annual trip to Europe. I’ve had coworkers and various others express over the years that they think this is weird behaviour for two adults but I don’t give a fig because it makes me happy. I hope you can find someone like that.
But I don’t think this person is it. I think that’s why you should trust your instincts in things feeling “off” - because they are. You’ve learned that this person’s energy doesn’t match yours in really key ways, ways that it seemed maybe easier to imagine were there earlier on when you didn’t know each other as well. I wouldn’t personally talk to her about it - that’s never gone as I’ve planned and usually just served to exacerbate existing tensions/make things go downhill faster.
I do think this person is your friend - she’s fun and you have some things in common - but not in the deep, intimate way you’re wanting. But I don’t think the problem is that you want that, more so that you’re going to have to keep looking for it. Your plan to create some distance for a while is smart - it gives you time to reframe the friendship to yourself without either you or her doing anything that torpedoes it forever.
But please, don’t feel bad for wanting to connect with others in a meaningful way. You sound like a loyal, kind person who deeply cares about others, and that definitely makes you best friend material.
posted by oywiththepoodles at 3:33 PM on October 14, 2021
I don’t have a lot of family (like you, I’m married but childless AND an only child in my family of origin to boot!) and so I really value, nurture and invest in the non-family bonds in my life. I don’t think there’s anything inherently weird, possessive or not-adult-like in wanting a best friend. In fact, I often think that people who have kids and grandkids and lots of siblings, etc, don’t really get what it’s like to not have a lot of readily available, societally sanctioned social connections. Like…I love my husband but he is literally one person and I don’t want him to be my whole world. And my cat doesn’t really reply when I talk to him, you know? At least, not yet. Stay tuned.
I have a best friend who lives 3000km from me but we chat weekly and take an annual trip to Europe. I’ve had coworkers and various others express over the years that they think this is weird behaviour for two adults but I don’t give a fig because it makes me happy. I hope you can find someone like that.
But I don’t think this person is it. I think that’s why you should trust your instincts in things feeling “off” - because they are. You’ve learned that this person’s energy doesn’t match yours in really key ways, ways that it seemed maybe easier to imagine were there earlier on when you didn’t know each other as well. I wouldn’t personally talk to her about it - that’s never gone as I’ve planned and usually just served to exacerbate existing tensions/make things go downhill faster.
I do think this person is your friend - she’s fun and you have some things in common - but not in the deep, intimate way you’re wanting. But I don’t think the problem is that you want that, more so that you’re going to have to keep looking for it. Your plan to create some distance for a while is smart - it gives you time to reframe the friendship to yourself without either you or her doing anything that torpedoes it forever.
But please, don’t feel bad for wanting to connect with others in a meaningful way. You sound like a loyal, kind person who deeply cares about others, and that definitely makes you best friend material.
posted by oywiththepoodles at 3:33 PM on October 14, 2021
Any chance what you have is a crush? The sensitivity seems a little high for just a friend but totally in line with a crush, at least by my personal metric.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 5:18 PM on October 21, 2021
posted by nouvelle-personne at 5:18 PM on October 21, 2021
This thread is closed to new comments.
Can you hang out just the two of you in non-boozey situations? Break out of this unpleasant cycle of drunken events? Forge a friendship beyond group dynamics? If this doesn't feel like an option, then, yes, I think you have made more of this friendship than is really there. It's sad, and maybe it means you'll need to continue looking for more of your people in your city, but its better than being put through the emotional wringer by a messy drunk who doesn't seem to care about you half as much as you do about her.
posted by Balthamos at 2:05 PM on October 6, 2021 [23 favorites]