Common Advices for Long Term Relationships
June 24, 2021 4:45 PM Subscribe
How do you reconcile the advice to have a "hell yes" passion filled relationship with the other advice that relationships are hard work and takes effort?
I see these two things talked about often here when there's a question about relationships, and both make sense to me, but seem to be in conflict with each other. Please help me gain perspective.
I see these two things talked about often here when there's a question about relationships, and both make sense to me, but seem to be in conflict with each other. Please help me gain perspective.
The "hell yes" is like an incredible amount of money paid to you, and the work is what you do to get to the yes.
posted by firstdaffodils at 5:01 PM on June 24, 2021
posted by firstdaffodils at 5:01 PM on June 24, 2021
I don't think "hell yes" means a passion-filled relationship. We can't expect "hell yes" to happen for every single moment in long term relationships. It can be "hell yes" we need to figure out this relationship problem.
I think it's a good framing -- don't be with this person if you or they are ambivalent or wishy-washy, particularly in newer relationships -- and especially for folks who have been overly accommodating of ambivalent partners. But it can be destructive if we expect that this somehow means we are always supposed to feel new relationship energy or fully passionate even when we're exhausted from a baby crying all night. Like, sometimes your partner injures themselves or gets sick and they need help and they are grumpy and it makes us grumpy. That doesn't mean you ditch them.
You might read over the Marc Maron Fuck Yes or No article that I think is the source for some of this. Maron focuses specifically on dating, and not spending time in relationships where you're not excited about the person, or where they're not excited about you: "The Law of Fuck Yes or No states that when you want to get involved with someone new, in whatever capacity, they must inspire you to say “Fuck Yes” in order for you to proceed with them. The Law of Fuck Yes or No also states that when you want to get involved with someone new, in whatever capacity, THEY must also respond with a “Fuck Yes” in order for you to proceed with them."
And here's more that's relevant:
Sometimes The Law of Fuck Yes or No will apply differently on different levels. You may be a “Fuck Yes” for friendship with someone, but mildly excited to have sex with them. Therefore, it’s a no. You may be a “Fuck Yes” on banging someone’s brains out, but a definite “No” on actually spending any time with them. Apply the law to your decision-making as it suits your needs.
The Law of Fuck Yes or No doesn’t necessarily mean you have to be falling in knee-wobbling love at first sight. It doesn’t even mean you have to be completely convinced that someone is right for you. You can be “Fuck Yes” about getting to know someone better. You can be “Fuck Yes” about seeing someone again because you think there’s something there. You can be “Fuck Yes” about giving things a few months to pan out and see if you can fix the problems in the relationship. You can be “Fuck Yes” about sticking it out in an unhappy relationship because you can see the long-term potential in the future.
So, no, not every moment is filled with passion. That's not what this phrase is about.
posted by bluedaisy at 5:04 PM on June 24, 2021 [29 favorites]
I think it's a good framing -- don't be with this person if you or they are ambivalent or wishy-washy, particularly in newer relationships -- and especially for folks who have been overly accommodating of ambivalent partners. But it can be destructive if we expect that this somehow means we are always supposed to feel new relationship energy or fully passionate even when we're exhausted from a baby crying all night. Like, sometimes your partner injures themselves or gets sick and they need help and they are grumpy and it makes us grumpy. That doesn't mean you ditch them.
You might read over the Marc Maron Fuck Yes or No article that I think is the source for some of this. Maron focuses specifically on dating, and not spending time in relationships where you're not excited about the person, or where they're not excited about you: "The Law of Fuck Yes or No states that when you want to get involved with someone new, in whatever capacity, they must inspire you to say “Fuck Yes” in order for you to proceed with them. The Law of Fuck Yes or No also states that when you want to get involved with someone new, in whatever capacity, THEY must also respond with a “Fuck Yes” in order for you to proceed with them."
And here's more that's relevant:
Sometimes The Law of Fuck Yes or No will apply differently on different levels. You may be a “Fuck Yes” for friendship with someone, but mildly excited to have sex with them. Therefore, it’s a no. You may be a “Fuck Yes” on banging someone’s brains out, but a definite “No” on actually spending any time with them. Apply the law to your decision-making as it suits your needs.
The Law of Fuck Yes or No doesn’t necessarily mean you have to be falling in knee-wobbling love at first sight. It doesn’t even mean you have to be completely convinced that someone is right for you. You can be “Fuck Yes” about getting to know someone better. You can be “Fuck Yes” about seeing someone again because you think there’s something there. You can be “Fuck Yes” about giving things a few months to pan out and see if you can fix the problems in the relationship. You can be “Fuck Yes” about sticking it out in an unhappy relationship because you can see the long-term potential in the future.
So, no, not every moment is filled with passion. That's not what this phrase is about.
posted by bluedaisy at 5:04 PM on June 24, 2021 [29 favorites]
There's no reason for these things to be in conflict with each other; one is a feeling and the other is an action. You need both feelings and actions in a relationship, because a general sense of "hell yeah!" doesn't actually...do anything. "Hell yeah" doesn't remember someone's birthday or plan a dinner date or help pick out a preschool for the kids. It doesn't support your loved one through a loss or an illness. But it makes those things into things you more or less want to do.
It's no different from anything else really. You might feel "hell yeah" about skateboarding but that doesn't mean you can just automatically do all the tricks. You have to put in a shit ton of effort and time and practice to be a skateboarder. Conversely, if you feel meh about skateboarding why would you spend your entire life trying to improve at it? You need the combination of both to make anything happen.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 5:23 PM on June 24, 2021 [32 favorites]
It's no different from anything else really. You might feel "hell yeah" about skateboarding but that doesn't mean you can just automatically do all the tricks. You have to put in a shit ton of effort and time and practice to be a skateboarder. Conversely, if you feel meh about skateboarding why would you spend your entire life trying to improve at it? You need the combination of both to make anything happen.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 5:23 PM on June 24, 2021 [32 favorites]
This is part of a comment I made on Ask several years ago:
...in the process of thinking things through, I worked my way through the questions in the book "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay." My results actually said I'd be happier leaving due to the issues we had, but my gut reaction to that news was something like, "but he's got so many great qualities, and I LOVE him!" And so I stayed.
Our issues at the time were creating a lot of friction, and we had some work ahead of us. However, my gut reaction to the book's suggestion that I might be happier leaving was basically a "hell no!" And as Betelgeuse said above, feeling that way about him did make the work worth it.
We just celebrated our 20th anniversary two days ago.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 5:26 PM on June 24, 2021 [19 favorites]
...in the process of thinking things through, I worked my way through the questions in the book "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay." My results actually said I'd be happier leaving due to the issues we had, but my gut reaction to that news was something like, "but he's got so many great qualities, and I LOVE him!" And so I stayed.
Our issues at the time were creating a lot of friction, and we had some work ahead of us. However, my gut reaction to the book's suggestion that I might be happier leaving was basically a "hell no!" And as Betelgeuse said above, feeling that way about him did make the work worth it.
We just celebrated our 20th anniversary two days ago.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 5:26 PM on June 24, 2021 [19 favorites]
I am hell yes about putting in the work. The work is being done by two people who mutually respect and want to do it. So when I use the word "work" in the context of my relationship, it may be very different than one where both people are not doing that.
I view the work as productive, enriching and a lifelong pursuit. It's great. If my partner wasn't in with the same enthusiasm then it would not be the very opposite of great.
The Gottman's research has indicated that successful couples have vastly more bids for affection/turning toward moments than negative interactions. Each of these is work in its own way. Couples that did not last had more negative interactions, that surprises no one, but also far fewer initial bids for connection. They were either turned down too many times or just didn't want to anymore. The work ceased (on one end, on both ends? it doesn't matter) and the relationship would die inevitably.
I said something once to my partner that she says really stuck with her and was great. I described our love like a fire, at times blazing hot with all the passion we could imagine and at other times just a few smoldering embers... until one of us would tend the fire somehow and it would blaze anew. Like when I would discover some random skill or knowledge she had or she'd see me do something really loving for my mom or a friend, we would see that person in a new light or fall in love all over again.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 5:35 PM on June 24, 2021 [10 favorites]
I view the work as productive, enriching and a lifelong pursuit. It's great. If my partner wasn't in with the same enthusiasm then it would not be the very opposite of great.
The Gottman's research has indicated that successful couples have vastly more bids for affection/turning toward moments than negative interactions. Each of these is work in its own way. Couples that did not last had more negative interactions, that surprises no one, but also far fewer initial bids for connection. They were either turned down too many times or just didn't want to anymore. The work ceased (on one end, on both ends? it doesn't matter) and the relationship would die inevitably.
I said something once to my partner that she says really stuck with her and was great. I described our love like a fire, at times blazing hot with all the passion we could imagine and at other times just a few smoldering embers... until one of us would tend the fire somehow and it would blaze anew. Like when I would discover some random skill or knowledge she had or she'd see me do something really loving for my mom or a friend, we would see that person in a new light or fall in love all over again.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 5:35 PM on June 24, 2021 [10 favorites]
"Are you happier spending time with this person than not spending time with this person" is the question that has been useful for me. Whether that person is a jerk you enjoy fucking or an intellectual you admire but with whom you share no actual pastimes or physical attraction isn't actually important. (Having both is great, obviously.) Relationships are work, but it's got to be worth that's worth doing in the first place. My obnoxious, asshole opinions is that most relationships are awful and nobody would put up with them if they weren't terrified of being alone.
Knowing that I can make a casual joke about Charles Gates Dawes' musical career with my spouse and they'll respond with something related and brilliant is worth a hell of a lot. Even if we disagree about how hand towels should be folded and regularly buy foods the other partner finds incomprehensible. The passion happens occasionally. The laughter happens daily.
posted by eotvos at 6:46 PM on June 24, 2021 [8 favorites]
Knowing that I can make a casual joke about Charles Gates Dawes' musical career with my spouse and they'll respond with something related and brilliant is worth a hell of a lot. Even if we disagree about how hand towels should be folded and regularly buy foods the other partner finds incomprehensible. The passion happens occasionally. The laughter happens daily.
posted by eotvos at 6:46 PM on June 24, 2021 [8 favorites]
It’s easy to comprehend if you think about something other than relationships. Think about CrossFit, for example. Super hard work; that’s the whole point. But people who do CrossFit are quite “fuck yeah” about it. Or playing in a prog metal band. Very difficult, very hell yes. Relationships are similar. Sometimes.
posted by kevinbelt at 6:59 PM on June 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by kevinbelt at 6:59 PM on June 24, 2021 [1 favorite]
"Is being partnered to this guy worth [x work]?" "Hell, yes."
posted by warriorqueen at 7:44 PM on June 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 7:44 PM on June 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
I don't know what "Hell, yes" means exactly in this context. Is that a thing people say a lot?
That said, all relationships are different. There's no need for all couples to use the same words to describe their relationships. Each one is worthwhile for its own reasons.
posted by JimN2TAW at 8:16 PM on June 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
That said, all relationships are different. There's no need for all couples to use the same words to describe their relationships. Each one is worthwhile for its own reasons.
posted by JimN2TAW at 8:16 PM on June 24, 2021 [2 favorites]
Married 21 years this July. It’s never been work, it’s been very easy. We like each other a lot and root for each other and enjoy the banter.
I don’t if that counts as blazing-fiery-passion stuff. But is has been easy for us, even when bits of our individual lives go wrong.
posted by argybarg at 11:05 PM on June 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
I don’t if that counts as blazing-fiery-passion stuff. But is has been easy for us, even when bits of our individual lives go wrong.
posted by argybarg at 11:05 PM on June 24, 2021 [4 favorites]
“Relationships are hard work and takes effort”
I think this gets misconstrued a lot, and people assume you need to do a lot of actions to keep a relationship healthy, some sort of in-depth conversations, and possibly changing your own personality in some way (I remember a question on here where somebody said their partner had told them they loved them, but wasn’t willing to do any of the work on themselves that followed on from that, and half of the posters agreed that was terrible, and the other half were baffled).
You need to not be an arse to somebody, consider their feelings when you are making decisions that affect them, and adjust your social life to include regular one on one time with them. Don’t leave them to do all the chores. Accept you can’t have everything your own way all the time. That is pretty much it. Pick somebody you actually like spending time with (the hell yeah part), and most of that will be easy.
posted by tinkletown at 12:25 AM on June 25, 2021 [7 favorites]
I think this gets misconstrued a lot, and people assume you need to do a lot of actions to keep a relationship healthy, some sort of in-depth conversations, and possibly changing your own personality in some way (I remember a question on here where somebody said their partner had told them they loved them, but wasn’t willing to do any of the work on themselves that followed on from that, and half of the posters agreed that was terrible, and the other half were baffled).
You need to not be an arse to somebody, consider their feelings when you are making decisions that affect them, and adjust your social life to include regular one on one time with them. Don’t leave them to do all the chores. Accept you can’t have everything your own way all the time. That is pretty much it. Pick somebody you actually like spending time with (the hell yeah part), and most of that will be easy.
posted by tinkletown at 12:25 AM on June 25, 2021 [7 favorites]
If it helps, here is how it looked in real life to me:
PREVIOUS LTR:
The Work: felt SUPER hard because he wasn't really doing it and didn't want to.
Hell Yes Factor: I mean, we stayed together for years? So I was kidding myself that it was a hell yes...but it was more of a "yes, because I'm afraid of change/being alone in my 30s"
CURRENT
The Work: feels like doing the career you love - hard work is it's own reward. Regular check-ins with each other, strong communication and talking through the big stuff, it all needs doing but it feels good because it's keeping our days beautiful, and we're working to the same spec
Hell Yes Factor: wake up every day and look at my partner thinking oh wow, I won the lottery, AWESOME, underpinned by a bone-deep sense of safety and contentment
posted by greenish at 3:46 AM on June 25, 2021 [7 favorites]
PREVIOUS LTR:
The Work: felt SUPER hard because he wasn't really doing it and didn't want to.
Hell Yes Factor: I mean, we stayed together for years? So I was kidding myself that it was a hell yes...but it was more of a "yes, because I'm afraid of change/being alone in my 30s"
CURRENT
The Work: feels like doing the career you love - hard work is it's own reward. Regular check-ins with each other, strong communication and talking through the big stuff, it all needs doing but it feels good because it's keeping our days beautiful, and we're working to the same spec
Hell Yes Factor: wake up every day and look at my partner thinking oh wow, I won the lottery, AWESOME, underpinned by a bone-deep sense of safety and contentment
posted by greenish at 3:46 AM on June 25, 2021 [7 favorites]
I've always been a real proponent of the idea that "relationships are hard work" is just a new way to perpetuate inequalities in societal emotional labor, and to encourage people to be satisfied with scraps because if they're unhappy then they're obviously not working hard enough. That sounds terrible. I'd rather be single (and I've been married 19 years so I feel like there's some weight behind my saying that it doesn't need to be that way.)
Events that crop up during a relationship are not always *easy*--supporting someone during health struggles, raising kids together, sorting out finances for taxes/big purchases, needing to live long distance for a while--those happen all the time, and aren't fun. But bonds of mutual support shouldn't feel like drudgery. They should be the reprieve from drudgery.
posted by tchemgrrl at 11:28 AM on June 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
Events that crop up during a relationship are not always *easy*--supporting someone during health struggles, raising kids together, sorting out finances for taxes/big purchases, needing to live long distance for a while--those happen all the time, and aren't fun. But bonds of mutual support shouldn't feel like drudgery. They should be the reprieve from drudgery.
posted by tchemgrrl at 11:28 AM on June 25, 2021 [4 favorites]
"The “hell yes” makes the work worth it." - Wow, betelgeuse, you nailed the answer right out of the gate.
I'm a few years into marriage that has been a lot of work (and we chose to invest in couple's therapy early), but is SO SO rewarding, and just keeps getting better and better, and more and more committed and fulfilling. The initial deeply passionate and intense Hell Yes (which surges to the surface again regularly, but is no longer as overwhelmingly intense as the early infatuation/limerence) is what has kept us sticking around and putting in all the work and effort.
posted by amaire at 4:25 PM on June 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
I'm a few years into marriage that has been a lot of work (and we chose to invest in couple's therapy early), but is SO SO rewarding, and just keeps getting better and better, and more and more committed and fulfilling. The initial deeply passionate and intense Hell Yes (which surges to the surface again regularly, but is no longer as overwhelmingly intense as the early infatuation/limerence) is what has kept us sticking around and putting in all the work and effort.
posted by amaire at 4:25 PM on June 25, 2021 [1 favorite]
For me it's "hell yes, I want to do the hard work with you."
posted by Beethoven's Sith at 2:12 PM on June 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
posted by Beethoven's Sith at 2:12 PM on June 27, 2021 [1 favorite]
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posted by Betelgeuse at 4:46 PM on June 24, 2021 [30 favorites]