To those with muss,, could you use some fuss?
July 15, 2020 9:39 AM Subscribe
In a pickle jar I'm jammed like a Concord grape. I have nothing but insignificant un-sentimental junk like the aforementioned jars and mismatched dish menagerie, loads of boxed up nothing scheduled datebooks, crossword magazines, indecipherable letters and postcards...I am getting ill at the thought of describing how much useless-news-less refuse I am up to my boobs in (but wait theres more)
On top of that heap is the engineer of excess my fiance and underneath the pile is my new apartment. You see he refuses to throw anything away. He is not hoarding, per se, he just has a way with maneuvering things so they look like they belong where he puts them. The problem is we moved in together and I want my new place, OUR new place, not to resemble the stock pile pageant he choreographed at his old place. Plus I'd like to buy new stuff like rugs and lamps and with everything he wants to hold onto we dont have room for it let alone the look I want to achieve is in the online stores he wont let me shop at. . (He is also deathly afraid of spending money although we make good earnings) He was raised that way but we are at our final match if I cant get some compromise from myself or him. Should I just wait out the way he unpacks which will take months and ruin my enjoyment of my new place or is there some way a tactful reason to toss out his things that arent needed could be broached? Mind you i have things of mine i also want to toss but he says he gets dibs on that stuff which kind of defeats the purpose. My solution suggestion: a storage unit that will hold the extra stuff until hes able to go through it . His suggestion: just wait until we have time to unpack everything (room for the excess will come at a cost to sanity) and not be so in a hurry.
On top of that heap is the engineer of excess my fiance and underneath the pile is my new apartment. You see he refuses to throw anything away. He is not hoarding, per se, he just has a way with maneuvering things so they look like they belong where he puts them. The problem is we moved in together and I want my new place, OUR new place, not to resemble the stock pile pageant he choreographed at his old place. Plus I'd like to buy new stuff like rugs and lamps and with everything he wants to hold onto we dont have room for it let alone the look I want to achieve is in the online stores he wont let me shop at. . (He is also deathly afraid of spending money although we make good earnings) He was raised that way but we are at our final match if I cant get some compromise from myself or him. Should I just wait out the way he unpacks which will take months and ruin my enjoyment of my new place or is there some way a tactful reason to toss out his things that arent needed could be broached? Mind you i have things of mine i also want to toss but he says he gets dibs on that stuff which kind of defeats the purpose. My solution suggestion: a storage unit that will hold the extra stuff until hes able to go through it . His suggestion: just wait until we have time to unpack everything (room for the excess will come at a cost to sanity) and not be so in a hurry.
I mean, yes, this is fundamentally a problem of compromise and whether he accepts that how you feel about your space and life matters, even if it's different from how he feels.
Mind you i have things of mine i also want to toss but he says he gets dibs on that stuff which kind of defeats the purpose.
Does this mean he wants to decide whether he wants your stuff before you "get" to get rid of it? No. It's your stuff. Get rid of it. I guarantee if you do it while he's not around he won't even notice it's gone.
posted by nakedmolerats at 10:15 AM on July 15, 2020 [7 favorites]
Mind you i have things of mine i also want to toss but he says he gets dibs on that stuff which kind of defeats the purpose.
Does this mean he wants to decide whether he wants your stuff before you "get" to get rid of it? No. It's your stuff. Get rid of it. I guarantee if you do it while he's not around he won't even notice it's gone.
posted by nakedmolerats at 10:15 AM on July 15, 2020 [7 favorites]
→ He is not hoarding, per se, … but he says he gets dibs on that stuff
Nah, he's a hoarder. If he has emotional attachment to stuff that you need out of the way, that's not really ideal. Also, “dibs” past middle school age? Start throwing your own excess stuff out. Make clear spaces, and not just for him to fill up.
I'd be tempted to stick "This goes to the kerb or you do" postits on the bulky crap, but that's maybe a bit too fighty.
posted by scruss at 10:31 AM on July 15, 2020 [6 favorites]
Nah, he's a hoarder. If he has emotional attachment to stuff that you need out of the way, that's not really ideal. Also, “dibs” past middle school age? Start throwing your own excess stuff out. Make clear spaces, and not just for him to fill up.
I'd be tempted to stick "This goes to the kerb or you do" postits on the bulky crap, but that's maybe a bit too fighty.
posted by scruss at 10:31 AM on July 15, 2020 [6 favorites]
You say both "my new place" and "our new place". Who's place is it?
You say that you both earn well, but you are not "allowed" to shop at certain stores. I'm guessing this is hyperbole but it sounds like something that can go on and on, something that can crop up in other issues.
What paint are you getting, the nice stuff that's a little more expensive or the perfectly ok stuff that is cheaper but looks just different enough that it will bug you but not him. Which car-seat for hypothetical kid or puppy, the one his buddy isn't using any more?
If you have different ambition levels for the house you need to work out what is doable.
He can present his idea of what he would like for interior design and you can reach a compromise, or as the case may be, he doesn't really give a shit and doesn't particularly want to subsidize your hobby, but would of course enjoy the benefits of living in a presentable and pleasant home. How much is he willing to spend on making the new home somewhere you would both like to live? Let him kick in "his half" of that, and you take the other half plus whatever overhead it takes to get you what you want more than he does. Let the same thing happen for stuff he cares more about. I pay the same amount for "our car" as I did when we were driving a much less fancy car. She wants it fancy, she pays for fancy, I pay for 4 safe wheels.
I would also say, all your shit goes into storage, him paying slightly more if it's mainly his shit, and nothing comes into the house without two yesses. Get a good filing cabinet each, if paperwork is more than fits in it, then it doesn't come in, he can pay to store it. Furniture get's a no? Then it gets sold or stored or whatever, at his profit or cost. Be fair with eachother on this.
posted by Iteki at 10:31 AM on July 15, 2020
You say that you both earn well, but you are not "allowed" to shop at certain stores. I'm guessing this is hyperbole but it sounds like something that can go on and on, something that can crop up in other issues.
What paint are you getting, the nice stuff that's a little more expensive or the perfectly ok stuff that is cheaper but looks just different enough that it will bug you but not him. Which car-seat for hypothetical kid or puppy, the one his buddy isn't using any more?
If you have different ambition levels for the house you need to work out what is doable.
He can present his idea of what he would like for interior design and you can reach a compromise, or as the case may be, he doesn't really give a shit and doesn't particularly want to subsidize your hobby, but would of course enjoy the benefits of living in a presentable and pleasant home. How much is he willing to spend on making the new home somewhere you would both like to live? Let him kick in "his half" of that, and you take the other half plus whatever overhead it takes to get you what you want more than he does. Let the same thing happen for stuff he cares more about. I pay the same amount for "our car" as I did when we were driving a much less fancy car. She wants it fancy, she pays for fancy, I pay for 4 safe wheels.
I would also say, all your shit goes into storage, him paying slightly more if it's mainly his shit, and nothing comes into the house without two yesses. Get a good filing cabinet each, if paperwork is more than fits in it, then it doesn't come in, he can pay to store it. Furniture get's a no? Then it gets sold or stored or whatever, at his profit or cost. Be fair with eachother on this.
posted by Iteki at 10:31 AM on July 15, 2020
Should I just wait out the way he unpacks which will take months and ruin my enjoyment of my new place or is there some way a tactful reason to toss out his things that arent needed could be broached?
No and no. Speaking as the daughter of a hoarder and being myself a hoarder in recovery, you should not wait it out but there is no tactful way to raise this issue. This is a problem. This is a big problem, according to you, and your opinion matters.
we are at our final match if I cant get some compromise from myself or him.
Tell him that. Insist that:
1. He pays for his own storage and moves out anything there is not room for.
2. He does not get dibs on your possessions, and you will get rid of them when you are ready to.
3. If he cannot handle 1 or 2 above, then you invite him to attend a Buried in Treasures workshop or see a mental health professional, or find another type of support or ALL OF THE ABOVE because you are entitled to enjoy your half (you may literally need to negotiate a half that is to remain clutter-free) of the apartment without the burden of his stuff all over everything.
Do not let this slide. You are not being unreasonable, and your partner will not change unless motivated to. (I went through that workshop myself, it was helpful.)
posted by Bella Donna at 10:32 AM on July 15, 2020 [5 favorites]
No and no. Speaking as the daughter of a hoarder and being myself a hoarder in recovery, you should not wait it out but there is no tactful way to raise this issue. This is a problem. This is a big problem, according to you, and your opinion matters.
we are at our final match if I cant get some compromise from myself or him.
Tell him that. Insist that:
1. He pays for his own storage and moves out anything there is not room for.
2. He does not get dibs on your possessions, and you will get rid of them when you are ready to.
3. If he cannot handle 1 or 2 above, then you invite him to attend a Buried in Treasures workshop or see a mental health professional, or find another type of support or ALL OF THE ABOVE because you are entitled to enjoy your half (you may literally need to negotiate a half that is to remain clutter-free) of the apartment without the burden of his stuff all over everything.
Do not let this slide. You are not being unreasonable, and your partner will not change unless motivated to. (I went through that workshop myself, it was helpful.)
posted by Bella Donna at 10:32 AM on July 15, 2020 [5 favorites]
"I'd like to buy new stuff like rugs and lamps and with everything he wants to hold onto we dont have room for it let alone the look I want to achieve is in the online stores he wont let me shop at."
This would concern me A LOT.
posted by kate4914 at 10:33 AM on July 15, 2020 [9 favorites]
This would concern me A LOT.
posted by kate4914 at 10:33 AM on July 15, 2020 [9 favorites]
How do you foresee it going if you asked for a concrete timeline and goals, eg "clean out boxes by end of August or else it goes into storage? It's important TO ME that we have a set unpacked-by date." That's not at all an unreasonable request.
posted by nakedmolerats at 10:46 AM on July 15, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by nakedmolerats at 10:46 AM on July 15, 2020 [2 favorites]
I'd suggest getting rid of a couple of things every day when he's not around. My wife will get rid of some of my old, worn-out clothes without telling me. A lot of the time they're things like jeans with holes in them that fit really well or concert shirts and I'm annoyed when I realize it but I'm also fairly easygoing so the conversation goes something like this:
Me: "Hey, did you get rid of my NIN shirt from 1994?"
Her: "Yeah the collar was frayed"
Me: "I loved that shirt". [Shrugs and gets distracted by something else]
She does the same to our kids' stuff. So whenever something goes missing we all assume she's gotten rid of it somehow.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:08 AM on July 15, 2020 [1 favorite]
Me: "Hey, did you get rid of my NIN shirt from 1994?"
Her: "Yeah the collar was frayed"
Me: "I loved that shirt". [Shrugs and gets distracted by something else]
She does the same to our kids' stuff. So whenever something goes missing we all assume she's gotten rid of it somehow.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:08 AM on July 15, 2020 [1 favorite]
The bits about controlling where you shop and which of your own belongings you're allowed to discard are alarming. Regardless of his upbringing, or what legitimate-seeming values or anxieties are driving all of that, it doesn't leave room for you as an independent adult. If you feel genuinely constrained around things like this, please reconsider this whole plan.
Regarding the stuff, I suspect your respective instincts about the value of stuff vs. the value of open space and clear surfaces will just be different, forever. You aren't going to agree, so whether this works at all depends on whether you can compromise.
Maybe all of those boxes go into a nearby storage unit until he's ready to deal with them. Strike a bargain that he can bring home one or two boxes at a time, and that the rest stay in storage until the ones in the apartment are completely unpacked and processed. Yes, he'll hate to spend money on storage space because he hates to spend money on anything. Tough luck. If you can't tell him, "Tough luck, buddy," in a case like this, then please reconsider this whole plan.
Or, if the apartment is big enough, then agree that common areas will remain uncluttered but he gets a room that's his to fill up as he pleases as long as he doesn't keep anything stinky or hazardous. If that solution is possible but not acceptable to him, then please reconsider this whole plan.
posted by jon1270 at 11:38 AM on July 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
Regarding the stuff, I suspect your respective instincts about the value of stuff vs. the value of open space and clear surfaces will just be different, forever. You aren't going to agree, so whether this works at all depends on whether you can compromise.
Maybe all of those boxes go into a nearby storage unit until he's ready to deal with them. Strike a bargain that he can bring home one or two boxes at a time, and that the rest stay in storage until the ones in the apartment are completely unpacked and processed. Yes, he'll hate to spend money on storage space because he hates to spend money on anything. Tough luck. If you can't tell him, "Tough luck, buddy," in a case like this, then please reconsider this whole plan.
Or, if the apartment is big enough, then agree that common areas will remain uncluttered but he gets a room that's his to fill up as he pleases as long as he doesn't keep anything stinky or hazardous. If that solution is possible but not acceptable to him, then please reconsider this whole plan.
posted by jon1270 at 11:38 AM on July 15, 2020 [3 favorites]
Please note: Throwing out something without my permission would be a potentially break-up level of big deal for me and I'm not technically a hoarder. This is a known thing for people for people suffering from hoarding disorder and even some of us who no longer qualify as a hoarder. It is okay to set limits. It is not okay to throw away something that belongs to another person secretly and/or without their permission. That is an excellent way to lose the trust of your partner so please do not do that. Good luck!
posted by Bella Donna at 12:13 PM on July 15, 2020 [13 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 12:13 PM on July 15, 2020 [13 favorites]
Response by poster: Please note: Throwing out something without my permission would be a potentially break-up level of big deal for me and I'm not technically a hoarder. This is a known thing for people for people suffering from hoarding disorder and even some of us who no longer qualify as a hoarder. It is okay to set limits. It is not okay to throw away something that belongs to another person secretly and/or without their permission. That is an excellent way to lose the trust of your partner so please do not do that. Good luck!
This is my 1st defeat. I cant change the situation without his input but he does own the majority of excess stuff. My things do somewhat slightly overfill my half of the space but I'm fine to toss it but at the risk of hearing him say later how hurt he was I didnt consider letting him have it. I'm talking like a cordless drill that has no charger , vacuums that use bags we wont even halfway look for, (we have bagless) ball caps, mismatched Tupperware with no lids...you get the point. UsELESS CRaP! But as we speak we've been moved in 3 weeks and still have nearly a room and a half full of unpacked boxes that we cant even yet schedules being what they are I'm home all day having to shuffle among the boxes looking for what may be something I havent found hidden inside them and hes home all night too tired from working to make much more progress. It's our place but it feels like a homeless shelter and its wearing on me.
posted by The_imp_inimpossible at 2:11 PM on July 15, 2020
This is my 1st defeat. I cant change the situation without his input but he does own the majority of excess stuff. My things do somewhat slightly overfill my half of the space but I'm fine to toss it but at the risk of hearing him say later how hurt he was I didnt consider letting him have it. I'm talking like a cordless drill that has no charger , vacuums that use bags we wont even halfway look for, (we have bagless) ball caps, mismatched Tupperware with no lids...you get the point. UsELESS CRaP! But as we speak we've been moved in 3 weeks and still have nearly a room and a half full of unpacked boxes that we cant even yet schedules being what they are I'm home all day having to shuffle among the boxes looking for what may be something I havent found hidden inside them and hes home all night too tired from working to make much more progress. It's our place but it feels like a homeless shelter and its wearing on me.
posted by The_imp_inimpossible at 2:11 PM on July 15, 2020
Wait, are you seriously saying that he nags you if you throw away stuff like "a cordless drill that has no charger"?
because if so, that's pathological behavior. I would absolutely 100% press the brakes on the cohabiting project.
It's one thing to cajole and train someone out of hoarding tendencies when they are just starting their adult life, maybe moving into their first shared space. It's a WHOLE other thing to take that burden on when someone has decades of those habits behind them.
And what you're describing absolutely IS hoarding. I thought you meant, like, keeping books he's unlikely to read again, or too many old towels. But you are talking about actual trash.
posted by fingersandtoes at 3:17 PM on July 15, 2020 [6 favorites]
because if so, that's pathological behavior. I would absolutely 100% press the brakes on the cohabiting project.
It's one thing to cajole and train someone out of hoarding tendencies when they are just starting their adult life, maybe moving into their first shared space. It's a WHOLE other thing to take that burden on when someone has decades of those habits behind them.
And what you're describing absolutely IS hoarding. I thought you meant, like, keeping books he's unlikely to read again, or too many old towels. But you are talking about actual trash.
posted by fingersandtoes at 3:17 PM on July 15, 2020 [6 favorites]
Unfortunately, it’s not uncommon for hoarders to try to control other people’s possessions, not just their own.
If you already know that you don’t want to live like this the rest of your life, please develop a timeline and a plan for what you’ll do if the situation doesn’t improve (or gets worse). Hoarders and non-hoarders can have successful, loving relationships together, but this may involve living in separate homes.
Good luck to you. Hoarding can get worse over time, and can be resistant to treatment. I hope your situation is easy to deal with and that he agrees to work with you towards improving your home together.
posted by EXISTENZ IS PAUSED at 4:54 PM on July 15, 2020
If you already know that you don’t want to live like this the rest of your life, please develop a timeline and a plan for what you’ll do if the situation doesn’t improve (or gets worse). Hoarders and non-hoarders can have successful, loving relationships together, but this may involve living in separate homes.
Good luck to you. Hoarding can get worse over time, and can be resistant to treatment. I hope your situation is easy to deal with and that he agrees to work with you towards improving your home together.
posted by EXISTENZ IS PAUSED at 4:54 PM on July 15, 2020
I am a Certified Professional Organizer. I am not diagnosing your fiancé. It's possible that he has a hoarding disorder (which can only be diagnosed by a medical professional), but it's likely that he is what is called a "chronically disorganized" individual. Spaces owned by a chronically disorganized person and by a person with a hoarding disorder can be indistinguishable to a layman. The behaviors you describe could be associated with more severe instances of CD individuals as well as those with a hoarding disorder.
(NB: I'd like to encourage not using the term "hoarder," and instead use person-first language. Hoarding is a neurological condition with psychological and behavioral components; it is listed in the DSM-V.)
All this said, whether he is chronically disorganized or has a hoarding disorder (or is just very allied with the way he was raised), it's extremely unlikely that you will ever accomplish your goals for creating the kind of home you want without intervention. I recommend that you take this VERY seriously, and engage two types of professionals.
First, I'd encourage you to find a couples therapist to discuss this issue, making it clear that your relationship hinges on you both being satisfied and comfortable with your situation. Second, I'd suggest hiring a professional organizer with credentials in chronic disorganization and hoarding. Many MeFites know I always recommend finding a professional organizer through NAPO.net, but I'd direct you to the Institute for Challenging Disorganization. Most ICD subscribers are also NAPO members, but you can find someone with the appropriate training and credentials to help you help him. But again, this will only work if you engage in counseling and make it clear how serious an issue this is.
Please do not discard anything that belongs to him. He has the right to keep or toss his possessions as he sees fit, and he has (and may choose to exercise) the right to decide whether control over his possessions trumps his relationship with others. Whether he is chronically disorganized or has a hoarding disorder (or something else), having ones possessions disappear can cause severe emotional distress. And certainly, for any individuals with or without any of the above conditions, it would inject distrust into the relationship. As for your own possessions, please note that being able to control what you own is like being able to control your own body. His feeling that he should control what you keep is something that should be discussed in counseling.
Again, you and he are not my clients, but I've seen relationships and families harmed by the inability to manage these issues prior to embarking on lives together. I strongly urge you not to delay in seeking professional assistance to manage both your interpersonal relationship and your household's relationship to possessions.
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 6:43 PM on July 15, 2020 [13 favorites]
(NB: I'd like to encourage not using the term "hoarder," and instead use person-first language. Hoarding is a neurological condition with psychological and behavioral components; it is listed in the DSM-V.)
All this said, whether he is chronically disorganized or has a hoarding disorder (or is just very allied with the way he was raised), it's extremely unlikely that you will ever accomplish your goals for creating the kind of home you want without intervention. I recommend that you take this VERY seriously, and engage two types of professionals.
First, I'd encourage you to find a couples therapist to discuss this issue, making it clear that your relationship hinges on you both being satisfied and comfortable with your situation. Second, I'd suggest hiring a professional organizer with credentials in chronic disorganization and hoarding. Many MeFites know I always recommend finding a professional organizer through NAPO.net, but I'd direct you to the Institute for Challenging Disorganization. Most ICD subscribers are also NAPO members, but you can find someone with the appropriate training and credentials to help you help him. But again, this will only work if you engage in counseling and make it clear how serious an issue this is.
Please do not discard anything that belongs to him. He has the right to keep or toss his possessions as he sees fit, and he has (and may choose to exercise) the right to decide whether control over his possessions trumps his relationship with others. Whether he is chronically disorganized or has a hoarding disorder (or something else), having ones possessions disappear can cause severe emotional distress. And certainly, for any individuals with or without any of the above conditions, it would inject distrust into the relationship. As for your own possessions, please note that being able to control what you own is like being able to control your own body. His feeling that he should control what you keep is something that should be discussed in counseling.
Again, you and he are not my clients, but I've seen relationships and families harmed by the inability to manage these issues prior to embarking on lives together. I strongly urge you not to delay in seeking professional assistance to manage both your interpersonal relationship and your household's relationship to possessions.
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 6:43 PM on July 15, 2020 [13 favorites]
the online stores he wont let me shop at <>
His having 'first dibs' on stuff you want to get rid of that belonged to you originally means to me that he really wants to control the entire situation - what you can purchase to bring into the situation, and what you can remove from the situation. I'd rethink the engagement, if it were me, but couples therapy might work. Since you say you are ready to throw stuff out, I think you are not attached to stuff like he is, and I don't think you're going to be happy over time with this individual. How has his pile of "stuff" grown since you've been dating? Try to project that growtj out 5 years or more if he does not change - how would you feel if you were to be living in _that_ situation?
posted by TimHare at 7:15 PM on July 17, 2020 [1 favorite]
His having 'first dibs' on stuff you want to get rid of that belonged to you originally means to me that he really wants to control the entire situation - what you can purchase to bring into the situation, and what you can remove from the situation. I'd rethink the engagement, if it were me, but couples therapy might work. Since you say you are ready to throw stuff out, I think you are not attached to stuff like he is, and I don't think you're going to be happy over time with this individual. How has his pile of "stuff" grown since you've been dating? Try to project that growtj out 5 years or more if he does not change - how would you feel if you were to be living in _that_ situation?
posted by TimHare at 7:15 PM on July 17, 2020 [1 favorite]
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He was sure he would find nothing in his boxes that was disposable.
The first thing he opened was a box of bank statements that were about 20 years old. My point was made for me.
I hope your guy is convince-able. This is a pattern that comes up over and over and over on AskMeFi, always with the parameters that a man is convinced his stuff is incredibly important and nobody could possibly live without it, while his female partner struggles to make their living space decent.
The bit about how you decide what to spend together is a separate and bigger problem.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:49 AM on July 15, 2020 [9 favorites]