We're not fighting honey, we're talking
January 5, 2018 10:40 AM Subscribe
Due to abuse in his past, my partner perceives any discussion about feelings, needs, or the relationship as an attack on him personally. Help me help him be less defensive and more open about his feelings.
I am a good communicator and always prefer to talk about my feelings. I favour an open, collaborative approach where both people state their feelings/needs and then discuss how to jointly address them.
For reasons related to his background/life experiences, my partner has a hard time talking about his feelings and needs.
So when I say something like, “I’d like to talk about our distribution of chores,” he hears “I’m about to tell you the ways in which you’re screwing up”. If I say, “I’d love for you to buy me flowers once in awhile,”, he hears “You’re a bad partner”. If I even say simply “Can we talk about something?” his response is something like "Uh oh" or “Am I in trouble?”.
I totally understand WHY he does this and I am very patient, but it is also frustrating because all I want to do is have a discussion and he thinks we’re having a fight. I state my feelings calmly and I truly want to hear his point of view, but he goes into defensive mode and then we go nowhere.
I have tried starting these discussions with disclaimers like – I love you, you’re not in trouble, this is a conversation, etc. I almost always have these talks when we are cuddled up together, physically close. Still he doesn’t seem able to get past feeling attacked. And it takes a lot of patient questioning on my part to get him to vocalize his feelings. Often he gets frustrated and shuts down before we can even get there.
Another thing he does is sort of hide his feelings by pushing them onto external forces. For example, if I ask him if he wants to go out tonight and he doesn’t feel like it, he’ll say something like, “Well you’ve had a long day, it’s probably better for you to relax.” I have to then say – “That’s nice of you but what do YOU want?” - before he will actually say it.
He never uses “I” statements or anything like them. He does not ask for anything for fear of rejection or conflict, therefore I am the only one ever initiating these conversations.
The way I’ve described him, he sounds like an immature child. He’s not. He’s a wonderful person who's been through some shitty stuff. He recognizes this is a problem and is willing to work on it. I just need some resources for both of us. Can you recommend links, tips, books to help us communicate better? And yes, I know many will suggest therapy which we’re considering. But right now I’m looking for suggestions outside of that, simpler stuff. Basic stuff. Help?
PS - personal anecdotes about overcoming this kind of issue will also help.
I am a good communicator and always prefer to talk about my feelings. I favour an open, collaborative approach where both people state their feelings/needs and then discuss how to jointly address them.
For reasons related to his background/life experiences, my partner has a hard time talking about his feelings and needs.
So when I say something like, “I’d like to talk about our distribution of chores,” he hears “I’m about to tell you the ways in which you’re screwing up”. If I say, “I’d love for you to buy me flowers once in awhile,”, he hears “You’re a bad partner”. If I even say simply “Can we talk about something?” his response is something like "Uh oh" or “Am I in trouble?”.
I totally understand WHY he does this and I am very patient, but it is also frustrating because all I want to do is have a discussion and he thinks we’re having a fight. I state my feelings calmly and I truly want to hear his point of view, but he goes into defensive mode and then we go nowhere.
I have tried starting these discussions with disclaimers like – I love you, you’re not in trouble, this is a conversation, etc. I almost always have these talks when we are cuddled up together, physically close. Still he doesn’t seem able to get past feeling attacked. And it takes a lot of patient questioning on my part to get him to vocalize his feelings. Often he gets frustrated and shuts down before we can even get there.
Another thing he does is sort of hide his feelings by pushing them onto external forces. For example, if I ask him if he wants to go out tonight and he doesn’t feel like it, he’ll say something like, “Well you’ve had a long day, it’s probably better for you to relax.” I have to then say – “That’s nice of you but what do YOU want?” - before he will actually say it.
He never uses “I” statements or anything like them. He does not ask for anything for fear of rejection or conflict, therefore I am the only one ever initiating these conversations.
The way I’ve described him, he sounds like an immature child. He’s not. He’s a wonderful person who's been through some shitty stuff. He recognizes this is a problem and is willing to work on it. I just need some resources for both of us. Can you recommend links, tips, books to help us communicate better? And yes, I know many will suggest therapy which we’re considering. But right now I’m looking for suggestions outside of that, simpler stuff. Basic stuff. Help?
PS - personal anecdotes about overcoming this kind of issue will also help.
This used to be me, straight up.
What helped me immensely is learning about codependency and the practice of detachment.
Right now, he's mentally combining your peanut butter and his chocolate, when, actually, your peanut butter is your peanut butter and his chocolate is his chocolate.
There's a certain ultra-sensitivity involved that involves shame, guilt and low self esteem.
My wife has been incredibly helpful in reminding me in a loving, funny way, that not everything is about me :)
If he has a past history with alcohol or alcoholism growing up, this is what al-anon was made for.
If he is of a spiritual bent, certain Buddhist practices are also good for learning detachment.
Meditation has also helped me a great deal in finding the gap, and increasing it, between action (in your example, question or statement) and reaction (his feelings of being attacked or at fault).
Here are my favorite books:
Codependence and the Power of Detachment: How to Set Boundaries and Make Your Life Your Own
Let Go Now: Embracing Detachment
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 10:57 AM on January 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
What helped me immensely is learning about codependency and the practice of detachment.
Right now, he's mentally combining your peanut butter and his chocolate, when, actually, your peanut butter is your peanut butter and his chocolate is his chocolate.
There's a certain ultra-sensitivity involved that involves shame, guilt and low self esteem.
My wife has been incredibly helpful in reminding me in a loving, funny way, that not everything is about me :)
If he has a past history with alcohol or alcoholism growing up, this is what al-anon was made for.
If he is of a spiritual bent, certain Buddhist practices are also good for learning detachment.
Meditation has also helped me a great deal in finding the gap, and increasing it, between action (in your example, question or statement) and reaction (his feelings of being attacked or at fault).
Here are my favorite books:
Codependence and the Power of Detachment: How to Set Boundaries and Make Your Life Your Own
Let Go Now: Embracing Detachment
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 10:57 AM on January 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
Speaking as someone who had to get through this type of issue (though I think my experience was not as severe), a good baby step is just to practice expressing what he wants. Big emotional or partnership stuff is super scary, but those skills are the same ones as saying "actually, I would really like to get pizza tonight" or "I don't want to go to the movies today". While opinions like that are pretty minor in the grand scheme of things, they still brought up "this is where my person tells me that they hate me and I'm the worst because I don't want to do the thing they want to do" even when logically I knew full well that my husband didn't care either way and just wanted me to be happy.
It sounds like you're trying to do all the lifting here and while that's great, he has to start somewhere. I was able eventually to start saying things like "Logically I know you're not mad at me but my heart is pounding and anxiety-brain is saying that this is where it all goes wrong!" Splitting out what I know to be true from how my body is reacting helped me eventually get the reaction under control and build the trust.
That being said, therapy should definitely be on the docket if he's having this hard a time, but hopefully what I suggested above will get him thinking in the right direction.
posted by brilliantine at 11:00 AM on January 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
It sounds like you're trying to do all the lifting here and while that's great, he has to start somewhere. I was able eventually to start saying things like "Logically I know you're not mad at me but my heart is pounding and anxiety-brain is saying that this is where it all goes wrong!" Splitting out what I know to be true from how my body is reacting helped me eventually get the reaction under control and build the trust.
That being said, therapy should definitely be on the docket if he's having this hard a time, but hopefully what I suggested above will get him thinking in the right direction.
posted by brilliantine at 11:00 AM on January 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
Emotion Focused Couples Therapy (associated with Sue Johnson) is really good at this dynamic. The problem with doing it on your own is how hard it is to be the person to coax him into taking risks at the same time that you are riskiest person in the world to mess up with (because you are the most important one)
In the meanwhile, a small thing would be to stop and celebrate when it works - so if you say "that's nice, what do you want?" and he chooses. You take a minute to let him know that you appreciated hearing his opinion. It was a risk for him (even if it seems trivial to you), so give him the reward to letting him know that he did it right and you (unlike people in his past) are actually happy to hear his opinion.
To take it to the next level, can he talk about what is going on? I think it would really help if when you said "Let's talk", he could say "Wow, just that question is setting off lots of danger warnings in my head" which gives you an opening to be reassuring. My guess is that you will be the one initiating things for a long time but it will make it easier on you if the two of you can talk about what's happening and hopefully you can support him in consciously taking more risks and seeing that with you, it works in ways that it never would have in the past.
posted by metahawk at 11:00 AM on January 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
In the meanwhile, a small thing would be to stop and celebrate when it works - so if you say "that's nice, what do you want?" and he chooses. You take a minute to let him know that you appreciated hearing his opinion. It was a risk for him (even if it seems trivial to you), so give him the reward to letting him know that he did it right and you (unlike people in his past) are actually happy to hear his opinion.
To take it to the next level, can he talk about what is going on? I think it would really help if when you said "Let's talk", he could say "Wow, just that question is setting off lots of danger warnings in my head" which gives you an opening to be reassuring. My guess is that you will be the one initiating things for a long time but it will make it easier on you if the two of you can talk about what's happening and hopefully you can support him in consciously taking more risks and seeing that with you, it works in ways that it never would have in the past.
posted by metahawk at 11:00 AM on January 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Is he the child of a narcissist?
Yes.
posted by puppet du sock at 11:09 AM on January 5, 2018 [4 favorites]
Yes.
posted by puppet du sock at 11:09 AM on January 5, 2018 [4 favorites]
He doesn't WANT to get better.
Due to abuse in his past, my partner perceives any discussion about feelings, needs, or the relationship as an attack on him personally. Help me help him be less defensive and more open about his feelings.
Uh, no. No, no NO. More like, Due to a selfish worldview and utter disregard for his partner...help me figure out how to get out of this terrible relationship because there's literally nothing I can do to make him less defensive and open about his feelings because he doesn't want to change
You need to ultimatum him to get help but know you're probably going to need to break up. This is the same guy who doesn't like to tell you he loves you, hasn't expressed that he wants to really commit to you and also likes to drink way more than you're comfortable with, right?
The forest for the trees is answer is this: you're with a selfish man who manages to glide through life in ways that work for him.
Not only does he have no interest in joining Team Us but actively agitates against your totally normal wish to have conversations without him throwing a temper tantrum.
Please listen to the collective wisdom you will see here: you CANNOT make your partner change. You CANNOT make him less defensive. You can only control your reaction and if I were you, I'd recognize this is not going to get any better and I'd end it now.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 11:14 AM on January 5, 2018 [17 favorites]
Due to abuse in his past, my partner perceives any discussion about feelings, needs, or the relationship as an attack on him personally. Help me help him be less defensive and more open about his feelings.
Uh, no. No, no NO. More like, Due to a selfish worldview and utter disregard for his partner...help me figure out how to get out of this terrible relationship because there's literally nothing I can do to make him less defensive and open about his feelings because he doesn't want to change
You need to ultimatum him to get help but know you're probably going to need to break up. This is the same guy who doesn't like to tell you he loves you, hasn't expressed that he wants to really commit to you and also likes to drink way more than you're comfortable with, right?
The forest for the trees is answer is this: you're with a selfish man who manages to glide through life in ways that work for him.
Not only does he have no interest in joining Team Us but actively agitates against your totally normal wish to have conversations without him throwing a temper tantrum.
Please listen to the collective wisdom you will see here: you CANNOT make your partner change. You CANNOT make him less defensive. You can only control your reaction and if I were you, I'd recognize this is not going to get any better and I'd end it now.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 11:14 AM on January 5, 2018 [17 favorites]
I agree that individual therapy for him, and possibly couple's therapy for you both, is the quickest way to get this under control, but John Gottman writes a lot about flooding and how to handle it when it happens in discussions:
When Anger Scares You: How to Overcome Your Fear of Conflict and Express Your Anger in Healthy Ways might also be a helpful book for him.
posted by lazuli at 11:16 AM on January 5, 2018 [5 favorites]
The difference between flooding and more manageable experiences of our emotions is one of magnitude. You reach the point when your thinking brain — the part that can take in gray areas, consider other sides, stay aware of the real state of affairs — is shut out. Psychologist John Gottman explains this emotional hijacking as the hallmark of our nervous system in overdrive. Something happens — and it could be almost anything — in your interaction with your partner that sets off your internal threat-detection system. This is your parasympathetic nervous system in action, preparing you for battle or flight. In this state, you lose some of your capacity for rational thought. Science describes this is as a decrease of activity in your pre-frontal cortex, the center of higher cognition.His The Seven Principles for Making Marriage Work talks about flooding, I think.
When Anger Scares You: How to Overcome Your Fear of Conflict and Express Your Anger in Healthy Ways might also be a helpful book for him.
posted by lazuli at 11:16 AM on January 5, 2018 [5 favorites]
If I even say simply “Can we talk about something?” his response is something like "Uh oh" or “Am I in trouble?”.
I don't mean to diminish your partner's trauma, but this is a classic move that a LOT of men do to avoid any meaningful dialogue with their female partners. Maybe he is doing it by accident, but it is troubling that his coping mechanisms are nearly indistinguishable from garden variety misogyny and borderline gaslighting. He's treating you like an adversary, not a partner. That's really destabilizing, regardless of what you want to talk about. What if the thing you wanted to talk about was planning a birthday party for a friend? Planning a trip to a botanical garden? It sounds like he is characterizing all your interactions as founded in antagonism before he even knows what they are about. If he wants you to drastically change the way you talk to him so that he feels safer, then it might help for him to commit to responding in less upsetting ways as well.
On your end-- do you ever ask "can we talk" before talking about something good? Is that question ever followed by a discussion about your favorite dog videos? If the phrase is always followed by a "difficult" talk, then it is logical for him to react badly to it.
Would he be open to having discussions in writing? (My brother and father have a difficult time talking in person, but can often deal better with hard subjects over email and then their time together is less fraught.)
If you sent a text letting him know there's a hard discussion that needs to happen, could he choose a time and place that would make him feel more at ease? Would you be open to him tapping out of the talk for a certain amount of time (twenty minutes, one hour), and then coming back when he's had time to calm down?
How do his friends tell him things he doesn't want to hear? Does he react to them the way he does to you? If not, what is different? What about for his coworkers? If someone tells him he parked in front of a fire hydrant, does he feel attacked and unloved? Why not? There might be approaches to be borrowed from the settings where he can handle criticism without melting down.
I have tried starting these discussions with disclaimers like – I love you, you’re not in trouble, this is a conversation, etc. I almost always have these talks when we are cuddled up together, physically close. Still he doesn’t seem able to get past feeling attacked.
I know you are trying to be kind and loving, but I hear this description and all I can think is how trapped I would feel in his position. Maybe physical space would actually help him feel like he has more mental space.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:19 AM on January 5, 2018 [30 favorites]
I don't mean to diminish your partner's trauma, but this is a classic move that a LOT of men do to avoid any meaningful dialogue with their female partners. Maybe he is doing it by accident, but it is troubling that his coping mechanisms are nearly indistinguishable from garden variety misogyny and borderline gaslighting. He's treating you like an adversary, not a partner. That's really destabilizing, regardless of what you want to talk about. What if the thing you wanted to talk about was planning a birthday party for a friend? Planning a trip to a botanical garden? It sounds like he is characterizing all your interactions as founded in antagonism before he even knows what they are about. If he wants you to drastically change the way you talk to him so that he feels safer, then it might help for him to commit to responding in less upsetting ways as well.
On your end-- do you ever ask "can we talk" before talking about something good? Is that question ever followed by a discussion about your favorite dog videos? If the phrase is always followed by a "difficult" talk, then it is logical for him to react badly to it.
Would he be open to having discussions in writing? (My brother and father have a difficult time talking in person, but can often deal better with hard subjects over email and then their time together is less fraught.)
If you sent a text letting him know there's a hard discussion that needs to happen, could he choose a time and place that would make him feel more at ease? Would you be open to him tapping out of the talk for a certain amount of time (twenty minutes, one hour), and then coming back when he's had time to calm down?
How do his friends tell him things he doesn't want to hear? Does he react to them the way he does to you? If not, what is different? What about for his coworkers? If someone tells him he parked in front of a fire hydrant, does he feel attacked and unloved? Why not? There might be approaches to be borrowed from the settings where he can handle criticism without melting down.
I have tried starting these discussions with disclaimers like – I love you, you’re not in trouble, this is a conversation, etc. I almost always have these talks when we are cuddled up together, physically close. Still he doesn’t seem able to get past feeling attacked.
I know you are trying to be kind and loving, but I hear this description and all I can think is how trapped I would feel in his position. Maybe physical space would actually help him feel like he has more mental space.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:19 AM on January 5, 2018 [30 favorites]
I used to be like this, and the most useful thing was therapy. I got to
practice all that good emotional work in a safe place with someone trained to respond sensibly rather than narcissistic parents who do not make feelings/needs/wants/conflict safe.
He can probably work on it on his own - I suspect he'll need to manage his internal distress at being in conflict with you. DBT could help him, but really all these options are just different ways to practice the skills. Maybe that reframing will help?
posted by eyeofthetiger at 11:34 AM on January 5, 2018
practice all that good emotional work in a safe place with someone trained to respond sensibly rather than narcissistic parents who do not make feelings/needs/wants/conflict safe.
He can probably work on it on his own - I suspect he'll need to manage his internal distress at being in conflict with you. DBT could help him, but really all these options are just different ways to practice the skills. Maybe that reframing will help?
posted by eyeofthetiger at 11:34 AM on January 5, 2018
Best answer: Okay, people who did not grow up with narcissist parents often really do not understand the level of emotional damage we go through. I'm a lovely person, by all accounts. I love my family fiercely, I do good deeds, I care so much about other people, I love animals, I'm fun, I'm smart, and I'm loved. But I also hate myself. I know, deep down, I'll never be good enough. Nothing I ever do will ever be good enough. I will always, always become a deer in the headlights when my partner wants to talk about something. I imagine all of the terrible things I think I'm due will happen if I express even a tiny amount of emotion or needs or wants. These are all the thoughts I live with on a daily basis. I've had years of therapy and I'm mostly okay most days. Those dark thoughts, though? They're never *really* going to go away.
My fight-or-flight reflex is off the hook. So, for example, if my husband mutters "Oh this stupid fucking computer" under his breath, my heart races and my blood pressure goes up. I finally discovered that if he mutters nonsense words instead, my reaction is zero. He's not mad at me! I know that! It's the computer and I have literally nothing to do with it! But child me remembers dad being mad at something else but taking all of his anger out on me because I was there and it was more satisfying, for him, to inflict his wrath on a person.
I was always trying to figure out how he wanted me to answer a question. A question never, ever had a simple answer, and if I answered wrong? Wrath. If I took too long to answer? Wrath. Imagine my poor husband trying to work out why the hell I wasn't answering "What's for dinner?" with "Meat, veg, carb," instead saying, "Well, we were out of X so I had to substitute Z but if you'd rather have Y, I'm sure I could make that happen."
I could go on and on. I'm going to reiterate: your partner will probably not get "better" any time soon without a therapist of his own.
posted by cooker girl at 11:34 AM on January 5, 2018 [69 favorites]
My fight-or-flight reflex is off the hook. So, for example, if my husband mutters "Oh this stupid fucking computer" under his breath, my heart races and my blood pressure goes up. I finally discovered that if he mutters nonsense words instead, my reaction is zero. He's not mad at me! I know that! It's the computer and I have literally nothing to do with it! But child me remembers dad being mad at something else but taking all of his anger out on me because I was there and it was more satisfying, for him, to inflict his wrath on a person.
I was always trying to figure out how he wanted me to answer a question. A question never, ever had a simple answer, and if I answered wrong? Wrath. If I took too long to answer? Wrath. Imagine my poor husband trying to work out why the hell I wasn't answering "What's for dinner?" with "Meat, veg, carb," instead saying, "Well, we were out of X so I had to substitute Z but if you'd rather have Y, I'm sure I could make that happen."
I could go on and on. I'm going to reiterate: your partner will probably not get "better" any time soon without a therapist of his own.
posted by cooker girl at 11:34 AM on January 5, 2018 [69 favorites]
I state my feelings calmly and I truly want to hear his point of view, but he goes into defensive mode and then we go nowhere.
Oh boy, is THIS familiar to me. Sometimes when I make a straightforward declaration or question to my partner with absolutely no subtext, he reacts in super defensive way because he has decided that it's some sort of sideways criticism of him. It upsets me that he's picking a fight (as far as I can tell), so I shut down, which makes him frustrated with me, and before you know it we're fighting over where the jam goes in the fridge or some such shit.
posted by desuetude at 11:52 AM on January 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
Oh boy, is THIS familiar to me. Sometimes when I make a straightforward declaration or question to my partner with absolutely no subtext, he reacts in super defensive way because he has decided that it's some sort of sideways criticism of him. It upsets me that he's picking a fight (as far as I can tell), so I shut down, which makes him frustrated with me, and before you know it we're fighting over where the jam goes in the fridge or some such shit.
posted by desuetude at 11:52 AM on January 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
Can you cuddle while having relationship talks? (Probably not a good fit for major conflicts, but maybe good for minor stuff) I find consensual affectionate touch helps me feel less attacked/defensive.
Also, would doing it in writing- like a short email- make it easier for him to manage/regulate his feelings?
posted by pseudostrabismus at 12:04 PM on January 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
Also, would doing it in writing- like a short email- make it easier for him to manage/regulate his feelings?
posted by pseudostrabismus at 12:04 PM on January 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'd feel more encouraged about this if HE were the one asking this question. You can't carry his water on this one, no matter how much you love him. He should be working with someone else to get better at his side of this stuff, including coming up with ideas to try and being proactive about information sharing.
I have several good friends who've lost years of their lives to trying to drag a dude through this work, only too realize that they were doing all the work, for themselves AND their partners, and they could free up a lot of resources by just ... not.
The only way I think you should stay in this relationship is if he gets a therapist by the end of February and starts being more of a partner in the project than what you describe.
posted by spindrifter at 12:09 PM on January 5, 2018 [28 favorites]
I have several good friends who've lost years of their lives to trying to drag a dude through this work, only too realize that they were doing all the work, for themselves AND their partners, and they could free up a lot of resources by just ... not.
The only way I think you should stay in this relationship is if he gets a therapist by the end of February and starts being more of a partner in the project than what you describe.
posted by spindrifter at 12:09 PM on January 5, 2018 [28 favorites]
This is something that you can support, but he has to do. The therapy I'd suggest is individual therapy for him. He has a lot of emotional trauma and its impacted his ability to communicate clearly and respectfully. You can't fix this with a better approach. He needs to fix this and feel that it's his responsibility to do so.
It sounds like you're taking too much responsibility for his inability to manage healthy, adult communication. Encourage him to get long-term individual therapy. You can consider getting joint couples therapy down the line, but I wouldn't even put it on the table until he has months of individual therapy under his belt and is making progress.
posted by quince at 12:20 PM on January 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
It sounds like you're taking too much responsibility for his inability to manage healthy, adult communication. Encourage him to get long-term individual therapy. You can consider getting joint couples therapy down the line, but I wouldn't even put it on the table until he has months of individual therapy under his belt and is making progress.
posted by quince at 12:20 PM on January 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
Best answer: As a daughter of a narcissistic mother AND a ptsd alcoholic vet, yep. I get it. I wasn't allowed to have an opinion, and any discussion was a criticism.
But he has to work on this. He has to want to work on this. He has to know that this is affecting you. You can't be required to do a twelve step dance every time you want to talk about anything.
It took me a long time, and a lot of support and understanding from my husband to get me to open up and feel safe. I ended up disconnecting entirely from my family of origin. I went to counseling. I read a lot about the effects of growing up in a dysfunctional family, especially narcissism. I delved, I wrote, I read, I wallowed, I surfaced and I rebuilt. All the while my husband was calm, non-judgemental, and I came out of it bigger better stronger and more opinionated and less jumpy.
One thing that helped me was naming the fear I was having during the conversation. I would say, this isn't about you, but I am feeling like I did when I put the car in the ditch and my dad yelled at me. I know that's not what happened, but that's what I'm feeling. Husband says, I hear you, but that's not this situation, and I am not going to yell at you. I just want to talk about laundry. Do you need a break? Do you want a hug? And he gives me space for me to feel my feelings, and we can come back to the conversation later, when I'm ready.
You may want to have a conversation ABOUT having conversations. Pick a calm, happy time to bring it up. Something like, we don't have to talk about this now. But we need to have conversations, and we're not always going to agree on things. You're not always going to like things that I do and vice versa. You and I need to work out a way to discuss these things together, so we can find something that works, whether that's texting, notes, talking on the phone, carrier pigeon, whatever. (keep it light) . Can you think about it and maybe we can talk about it in a week or so?
This is just a conversation about how to have conversations. There's no baggage. There's no criticism. There's nothing deep there. It's all about how to approach these issues. I would bet money no one in his family ever asked him how he'd like to express his opinion, let alone WHAT his opinion was and waited around to hear it. He will be uncomfortable dealing with a new circumstance. Let it be.
I thoroughly recommend counseling for him. It's something you can't compel someone into, but I wish sometimes that it worked that way. If he does try, be sure he's really selective, and if the first person doesn't seem to be helping, get him to try someone else. It's really easy for folks like us to just accept whatever comes our way because we don't believe we deserve better, and we don't think anything else is going to come our way. We are the poster children of knowing how to Make the Best of It. And a bad therapist can make this type of problem horribly worse.
There are a number of online resources for people who grew up in narcissistic families. There are a few books, some blogs, and yet, a lot of the resources can be traps, for the record. If you want more info, my username at gmail is my contact info. I hope this helps him, from one to another.
posted by knitcrazybooknut at 12:24 PM on January 5, 2018 [15 favorites]
But he has to work on this. He has to want to work on this. He has to know that this is affecting you. You can't be required to do a twelve step dance every time you want to talk about anything.
It took me a long time, and a lot of support and understanding from my husband to get me to open up and feel safe. I ended up disconnecting entirely from my family of origin. I went to counseling. I read a lot about the effects of growing up in a dysfunctional family, especially narcissism. I delved, I wrote, I read, I wallowed, I surfaced and I rebuilt. All the while my husband was calm, non-judgemental, and I came out of it bigger better stronger and more opinionated and less jumpy.
One thing that helped me was naming the fear I was having during the conversation. I would say, this isn't about you, but I am feeling like I did when I put the car in the ditch and my dad yelled at me. I know that's not what happened, but that's what I'm feeling. Husband says, I hear you, but that's not this situation, and I am not going to yell at you. I just want to talk about laundry. Do you need a break? Do you want a hug? And he gives me space for me to feel my feelings, and we can come back to the conversation later, when I'm ready.
You may want to have a conversation ABOUT having conversations. Pick a calm, happy time to bring it up. Something like, we don't have to talk about this now. But we need to have conversations, and we're not always going to agree on things. You're not always going to like things that I do and vice versa. You and I need to work out a way to discuss these things together, so we can find something that works, whether that's texting, notes, talking on the phone, carrier pigeon, whatever. (keep it light) . Can you think about it and maybe we can talk about it in a week or so?
This is just a conversation about how to have conversations. There's no baggage. There's no criticism. There's nothing deep there. It's all about how to approach these issues. I would bet money no one in his family ever asked him how he'd like to express his opinion, let alone WHAT his opinion was and waited around to hear it. He will be uncomfortable dealing with a new circumstance. Let it be.
I thoroughly recommend counseling for him. It's something you can't compel someone into, but I wish sometimes that it worked that way. If he does try, be sure he's really selective, and if the first person doesn't seem to be helping, get him to try someone else. It's really easy for folks like us to just accept whatever comes our way because we don't believe we deserve better, and we don't think anything else is going to come our way. We are the poster children of knowing how to Make the Best of It. And a bad therapist can make this type of problem horribly worse.
There are a number of online resources for people who grew up in narcissistic families. There are a few books, some blogs, and yet, a lot of the resources can be traps, for the record. If you want more info, my username at gmail is my contact info. I hope this helps him, from one to another.
posted by knitcrazybooknut at 12:24 PM on January 5, 2018 [15 favorites]
Best answer: I'm the child of a narcissist, and also had huge fucking problems expressing how I felt and even feeling my desires. Thank you for being patient with your partner. He could use therapy and a lot of it. I could use therapy and a lot of it. Having a narcissist abusive parent is a Way To Get Fucked the Fuck Up In 1,001 Delightful and Surprising Ways That Translate to Being an Asshole.
One of the key skills for me was recognizing my responses as being the product of abuse. Does your partner recognize that these are abuse responses? Because that was key for me. Once I realized that, my NOPE NOT GONNA LET YOU FUCK UP ANOTHER LIFE DAD kicked in and was very motivating.
The next step was getting practice in knowing what I wanted -- it's a real emotional skill, learning to figure out what you feel, and something I had zero point zero practice for a long time because it was always FLIGHT OR FIGHT FLIGHT OR FIGHT GET THE FUCK READY. It didn't matter what I felt or wanted because it wasn't really my choice, right? Instead, my job was figuring out the right, most defensive response that would minimize narcissistic damage.
So a big thing for me was working my way up to being emotionally comfortable expressing my own needs and feelings. I started small, by keeping a regular online private space where I would regularly sit down and write out my wants and feelings. I learned to look inside myself for what I wanted. Then, we went from there to asking for small, every day normal things from my partner, so that I could unlearn the childhood reaction to put up and bear it.
We started small, like expressing preferences for what I wanted to eat or when I wanted to do things. Then, we moved up to things that were fraught for me, like saying that what we were doing was giving me a headache or that I couldn't have this emotional conversation now, because I wasn't ready. I still have problems admitting to him when I've made a mistake, because my dad was such an asshole about it. I also have problems letting my spouse know when I'll be home or whatever, because my dad was such an asshole about being late to things -- better to never give a specific time to be home or not give updates, in case I get punished for not being there on time.
We're now at the "figuring out how to appropriately express anger" stage. It's hard. I'm not very good at it, and sometimes, I scare him and am an asshole.
But it's possible. My partner is kind and emotionally aware and has his own abuse issues. Good luck.
posted by joyceanmachine at 12:27 PM on January 5, 2018 [24 favorites]
One of the key skills for me was recognizing my responses as being the product of abuse. Does your partner recognize that these are abuse responses? Because that was key for me. Once I realized that, my NOPE NOT GONNA LET YOU FUCK UP ANOTHER LIFE DAD kicked in and was very motivating.
The next step was getting practice in knowing what I wanted -- it's a real emotional skill, learning to figure out what you feel, and something I had zero point zero practice for a long time because it was always FLIGHT OR FIGHT FLIGHT OR FIGHT GET THE FUCK READY. It didn't matter what I felt or wanted because it wasn't really my choice, right? Instead, my job was figuring out the right, most defensive response that would minimize narcissistic damage.
So a big thing for me was working my way up to being emotionally comfortable expressing my own needs and feelings. I started small, by keeping a regular online private space where I would regularly sit down and write out my wants and feelings. I learned to look inside myself for what I wanted. Then, we went from there to asking for small, every day normal things from my partner, so that I could unlearn the childhood reaction to put up and bear it.
We started small, like expressing preferences for what I wanted to eat or when I wanted to do things. Then, we moved up to things that were fraught for me, like saying that what we were doing was giving me a headache or that I couldn't have this emotional conversation now, because I wasn't ready. I still have problems admitting to him when I've made a mistake, because my dad was such an asshole about it. I also have problems letting my spouse know when I'll be home or whatever, because my dad was such an asshole about being late to things -- better to never give a specific time to be home or not give updates, in case I get punished for not being there on time.
We're now at the "figuring out how to appropriately express anger" stage. It's hard. I'm not very good at it, and sometimes, I scare him and am an asshole.
But it's possible. My partner is kind and emotionally aware and has his own abuse issues. Good luck.
posted by joyceanmachine at 12:27 PM on January 5, 2018 [24 favorites]
I really wish I had encouraging tips and stories for you, but I dated this person, and it was an awful experience. Any little thing I brought up was an attack on him, or me making him out to be a terrible partner, etc. I never got anywhere even when I walked on eggshells because he would turn it right around and somehow I would end up comforting him and assuring him that he's not a bad person and yes I loved him and so on. None of those things I wanted to talk about ever got resolved.
i.e. "Hey honey, can you call me next time you're running late? I would appreciate it." "Oh, I guess I'm a shitty boyfriend then huh" "That's not what I said - I'm just asking you to keep my time in mind too." "You're being really mean to me right now. What about the time you made me wait 10 minutes at x restaurant??'
And then I'd have to apologize and assure him that everyone makes mistakes and I still loved him and then the fucking thing I was trying to get him to do would happen again and again because he'd pull the same routine.
Sometimes in moments of clarity, he would say things like, "I don't want to be this way" or acknowledge his shittiness, but he never did take any real action to change and I just became tired and scared to ever bring anything up to him, which is not a functional relationship.
It takes a real commitment to change, and the want to change, and the resilience and wherewithal to pursue help to overcome this sort of thing.
posted by rachaelfaith at 12:45 PM on January 5, 2018 [10 favorites]
i.e. "Hey honey, can you call me next time you're running late? I would appreciate it." "Oh, I guess I'm a shitty boyfriend then huh" "That's not what I said - I'm just asking you to keep my time in mind too." "You're being really mean to me right now. What about the time you made me wait 10 minutes at x restaurant??'
And then I'd have to apologize and assure him that everyone makes mistakes and I still loved him and then the fucking thing I was trying to get him to do would happen again and again because he'd pull the same routine.
Sometimes in moments of clarity, he would say things like, "I don't want to be this way" or acknowledge his shittiness, but he never did take any real action to change and I just became tired and scared to ever bring anything up to him, which is not a functional relationship.
It takes a real commitment to change, and the want to change, and the resilience and wherewithal to pursue help to overcome this sort of thing.
posted by rachaelfaith at 12:45 PM on January 5, 2018 [10 favorites]
Best answer: The way I’ve described him, he sounds like an immature child. He’s not.
No he is, he just came by it honestly. People tend to emotionally fossilize when they are abused, and they don't develop maturity in a lot of areas that other people do.
It's entirely on him to learn how to feel something unpleasant and deal with it. You're not the right person to teach it to him and you can't do it for him, and you can't make him want to learn.
I think you should stop cuddling him when you try to engage on adult stuff, because he's not a baby. Not only is it unreasonable to expect you to parent him while trying to partner with him, but this isn't necessarily productive or healthy for him in a somatic way anyway. But mostly, I think you need to focus on your boundaries and your tolerances so that you can decide what is and isn't okay for him to do to/demand from you. If he decides that the discomfort of getting help is worth it, great, but if he doesn't you need to know what you're going to do. That's the only control you have here, is over what you do.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:49 PM on January 5, 2018 [16 favorites]
No he is, he just came by it honestly. People tend to emotionally fossilize when they are abused, and they don't develop maturity in a lot of areas that other people do.
It's entirely on him to learn how to feel something unpleasant and deal with it. You're not the right person to teach it to him and you can't do it for him, and you can't make him want to learn.
I think you should stop cuddling him when you try to engage on adult stuff, because he's not a baby. Not only is it unreasonable to expect you to parent him while trying to partner with him, but this isn't necessarily productive or healthy for him in a somatic way anyway. But mostly, I think you need to focus on your boundaries and your tolerances so that you can decide what is and isn't okay for him to do to/demand from you. If he decides that the discomfort of getting help is worth it, great, but if he doesn't you need to know what you're going to do. That's the only control you have here, is over what you do.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:49 PM on January 5, 2018 [16 favorites]
Best answer: Another aspect of narcissist crumbs is that his feeling were never recognized or validated or accepted for what they were. They were dismissed, turned into something else that the narcissist wanted, or used as fuel. It's no surprise that a child of narcissist neglects the act of identifying or stating his feelings.
He needs to start there. With 'I' statements. You can help him by just receiving and echoing those statements, to let him know that he is heard and understood and accepted (that may well be news to him). But he's the one who has to say "I feel ...." - this needs to be his work.
Once the fight/flight/flooding reaction is decoupled from the statements of feeling, then you can move on to couple communication issues. But he's got to get used to speaking for himself first.
posted by Dashy at 1:02 PM on January 5, 2018 [5 favorites]
He needs to start there. With 'I' statements. You can help him by just receiving and echoing those statements, to let him know that he is heard and understood and accepted (that may well be news to him). But he's the one who has to say "I feel ...." - this needs to be his work.
Once the fight/flight/flooding reaction is decoupled from the statements of feeling, then you can move on to couple communication issues. But he's got to get used to speaking for himself first.
posted by Dashy at 1:02 PM on January 5, 2018 [5 favorites]
Gottman, read Gottman's stuff, as much as you can. There's useful information there for people who want to get out of their defensive patterns.
But it takes them recognizing that those patterns *are* toxic, and wanting the relationship, the *team* to work - to see that you're not an enemy, but a partner with her own needs who wants to feel loved and secure, just like he does. He's got to be able to see past the short-term goal of defense in the moment and shoot for the long-term goal of mutual happiness.
Those "I" statements, though... Yes, as far as defensive triggers, they're an improvement over criticism of the "you always" variety, and they do (at least nominally) refocus things on the *effect* of a partner's behaviors on you.
But it all still amounts to, partner *isn't* holding up their end of the housework, partner *isn't* expressing affection in a way that's comfortable and safe-feeling for you. For him to get over the fact that there *is* an implicit criticism there, and a request for change, he really has to be able to prioritize your feelings over his ego. He has to *want* to make you happy more than he wants to protect himself. Things can change - definitely - but not unless/until he does that. He's got to be minimally insightful and self-aware, and highly motivated.
posted by cotton dress sock at 1:08 PM on January 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
But it takes them recognizing that those patterns *are* toxic, and wanting the relationship, the *team* to work - to see that you're not an enemy, but a partner with her own needs who wants to feel loved and secure, just like he does. He's got to be able to see past the short-term goal of defense in the moment and shoot for the long-term goal of mutual happiness.
Those "I" statements, though... Yes, as far as defensive triggers, they're an improvement over criticism of the "you always" variety, and they do (at least nominally) refocus things on the *effect* of a partner's behaviors on you.
But it all still amounts to, partner *isn't* holding up their end of the housework, partner *isn't* expressing affection in a way that's comfortable and safe-feeling for you. For him to get over the fact that there *is* an implicit criticism there, and a request for change, he really has to be able to prioritize your feelings over his ego. He has to *want* to make you happy more than he wants to protect himself. Things can change - definitely - but not unless/until he does that. He's got to be minimally insightful and self-aware, and highly motivated.
posted by cotton dress sock at 1:08 PM on January 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
I agree with some here (particularly the points about codependency), but want to respond as someone who used to respond in many of these ways in my former marriage. There has been a lot for me to learn in therapy, but part of the problem in that relationship was also that in these discussions I knew that whatever I said, I was going to be wrong. My feelings were never acknowledged as being as valid as hers.
I do think you can help him in this by being up front about stating your side as things you want and need, but realize that you might not get in exactly the form you ask for and that is okay. In my current relationship, my partner is really good at this, e.g. recently articulating that she's been really tired and stressed and would really like for us to schedule some weekend activities together because that is something she enjoys.
I'd also say that these conversations are easier for me when doing something else, like walking with each other, rather than "it is time for a CONVERSATION about chores and feelings".
posted by idb at 1:33 PM on January 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
I do think you can help him in this by being up front about stating your side as things you want and need, but realize that you might not get in exactly the form you ask for and that is okay. In my current relationship, my partner is really good at this, e.g. recently articulating that she's been really tired and stressed and would really like for us to schedule some weekend activities together because that is something she enjoys.
I'd also say that these conversations are easier for me when doing something else, like walking with each other, rather than "it is time for a CONVERSATION about chores and feelings".
posted by idb at 1:33 PM on January 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
Not only is it unreasonable to expect you to parent him while trying to partner with him, but this isn't necessarily productive or healthy for him in a somatic way anyway.
This. The more you slide into "parenting", the worse it will be. Work toward "emotional adulthood" which means you cannot offload his burden onto yourself. He must want it, and learn it, and sustain it.
This is my former partner. His relationship model was "me vs. them." He never learned that people can be partners. In that model, if you're not for him, you're against him. He lived in a different reality. In his world, every interaction was a win/lose situation. Other people were always potential antagonists. On a dime, he would jump to blazing anger or shut down and shut me out.
You must remember that he cannot really view you as you are, when those patterns kick in. He can only see you through the lens of his dysfunction. So you are constantly shifting, in his mind, between roles. And each time his anxiety is triggered, he makes you work that much harder to prove yourself and reclaim your right to be trusted. IT'S EXHAUSTING. As long as this continues, your relationship will never settle into what it needs to be.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 1:59 PM on January 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
This. The more you slide into "parenting", the worse it will be. Work toward "emotional adulthood" which means you cannot offload his burden onto yourself. He must want it, and learn it, and sustain it.
This is my former partner. His relationship model was "me vs. them." He never learned that people can be partners. In that model, if you're not for him, you're against him. He lived in a different reality. In his world, every interaction was a win/lose situation. Other people were always potential antagonists. On a dime, he would jump to blazing anger or shut down and shut me out.
You must remember that he cannot really view you as you are, when those patterns kick in. He can only see you through the lens of his dysfunction. So you are constantly shifting, in his mind, between roles. And each time his anxiety is triggered, he makes you work that much harder to prove yourself and reclaim your right to be trusted. IT'S EXHAUSTING. As long as this continues, your relationship will never settle into what it needs to be.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 1:59 PM on January 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
Child of a narcissist here, too. I find it very helpful when my husband tells me what he wants to talk about, gives me a few hours to figure out how I feel about the subject, then resumes the conversation.
posted by little king trashmouth at 1:59 PM on January 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by little king trashmouth at 1:59 PM on January 5, 2018 [8 favorites]
As anecdata I have had two long term relationships with men like this and the only thing that made a difference was therapy.
I also recommend instituting a regular weekly meeting with a treat (ice cream, nice tea, whatever you both like) in which you sit down and talk about any issues as well as what’s working great in your relationship for 30 minutes. Both of you need to have a chance to talk from your perspective. Over time maybe this will desensitize him to the trigger and also since it won’t “come out of the blue” and is mutual and time limited maybe it will be easier to tolerate.
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 3:01 PM on January 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
I also recommend instituting a regular weekly meeting with a treat (ice cream, nice tea, whatever you both like) in which you sit down and talk about any issues as well as what’s working great in your relationship for 30 minutes. Both of you need to have a chance to talk from your perspective. Over time maybe this will desensitize him to the trigger and also since it won’t “come out of the blue” and is mutual and time limited maybe it will be easier to tolerate.
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 3:01 PM on January 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
My husband struggles with this as well. At my house I learned that walking on eggshells did not help. Once I started expressing myself he had to learn to deal with his uncomfortable feelings himself. He had to learn that he could survive it and that nothing bad would happen on the other end and that could only happen with a ton of uncomfortableness on both our parts. Sometimes I would even call or text instead of do it in person, but not doing it was not a option.
He still struggles some but meanwhile I do not have near the amount of resentment I was carrying-
One other thing-his love language is touch so I make it a point to make sure I am hugging him at the end of these conversations and reminding him I am NOT his dad.
I will say that having a counselor of some sort is kinda a necessity. We have done that before and he may do it again later. His family of origin did some really really deep damage. Healing it is not instantaneous. But things get better and better, with time and work and at sticking points, some extra help.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:06 PM on January 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
He still struggles some but meanwhile I do not have near the amount of resentment I was carrying-
One other thing-his love language is touch so I make it a point to make sure I am hugging him at the end of these conversations and reminding him I am NOT his dad.
I will say that having a counselor of some sort is kinda a necessity. We have done that before and he may do it again later. His family of origin did some really really deep damage. Healing it is not instantaneous. But things get better and better, with time and work and at sticking points, some extra help.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:06 PM on January 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
My ex-husband was like this man. This question practically has me breaking out in hives, it feels so familiar.
I tried many, many things to shift this dynamic and never was successful. The people who are telling you that this is his work to do are correct. The people who are telling you that he is seeing you as an adversary is correct. I can tell you from bitter experience that it's possible to sustain serious emotional damage from trying to elicit compassionate and loving responses from a person who purports to love you but treats you as an adversary. I would not recommend it.
In the long struggle and decline of my marriage, I (we) read many books. By far the most helpful and impactful was Steven Stosny's Love Without Hurt, which I recommend often here. Lots of practical tools for dealing with the shame and fear that underlie his responses, for grounding in his moment of panic and hiding, and for changing that adversarial stance to a more compassionate one. I would recommend you both read it and consider adopting those practices. Good luck.
posted by Sublimity at 6:04 PM on January 5, 2018 [13 favorites]
I tried many, many things to shift this dynamic and never was successful. The people who are telling you that this is his work to do are correct. The people who are telling you that he is seeing you as an adversary is correct. I can tell you from bitter experience that it's possible to sustain serious emotional damage from trying to elicit compassionate and loving responses from a person who purports to love you but treats you as an adversary. I would not recommend it.
In the long struggle and decline of my marriage, I (we) read many books. By far the most helpful and impactful was Steven Stosny's Love Without Hurt, which I recommend often here. Lots of practical tools for dealing with the shame and fear that underlie his responses, for grounding in his moment of panic and hiding, and for changing that adversarial stance to a more compassionate one. I would recommend you both read it and consider adopting those practices. Good luck.
posted by Sublimity at 6:04 PM on January 5, 2018 [13 favorites]
You would like him to be different than he is. From your standpoint, you are a good communicator and he is a bad one. From his standpoint, you don't like who he is. What's more, on some level, he doesn't like who he is and believes you're right.
“I’d like to talk about our distribution of chores,” is probably not followed by "You do too much of the work around here" despite the objective neutrality in which you've chosen to broach the subject.
How often do you communicate that you love him (or even just appreciate him) when it isn't a disclaimer so you can ask for flowers? I'm not suggesting you need to do this because if it's something you do because someone in AskMe suggested it, it won't work.
My guess is he doesn't buy you flowers because he fears he'll get you the wrong ones and he doesn't do chores because you're in charge of evaluating how well he did. And even if you tell him he did good, next time he may get only a B- or even an F.
The reason people pay a therapist to help them express their feelings rather than have their spouse do it (even if they are excellent at this) is the power dynamic in the relationship of powerful helper to needy helpee is not what you want.
He may believe you that "we're not fighting" because he wants to trust you, the good communicator, but emotionally he knows you're fighting and no words to the contrary will change that if he doesn't experience it that way.
To make matters more complicated, I imagine he also likes it when you instruct him because he's insecure and clear rules help keep him out of trouble. However, you need to stop doing this and concentrate on making him feel safe and appreciated and loved. As he is, not as his potential indicates he may be some day. If your need for him to change is so great that you can't do this, then you need to find someone else and so does he.
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:34 AM on January 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
“I’d like to talk about our distribution of chores,” is probably not followed by "You do too much of the work around here" despite the objective neutrality in which you've chosen to broach the subject.
How often do you communicate that you love him (or even just appreciate him) when it isn't a disclaimer so you can ask for flowers? I'm not suggesting you need to do this because if it's something you do because someone in AskMe suggested it, it won't work.
My guess is he doesn't buy you flowers because he fears he'll get you the wrong ones and he doesn't do chores because you're in charge of evaluating how well he did. And even if you tell him he did good, next time he may get only a B- or even an F.
The reason people pay a therapist to help them express their feelings rather than have their spouse do it (even if they are excellent at this) is the power dynamic in the relationship of powerful helper to needy helpee is not what you want.
He may believe you that "we're not fighting" because he wants to trust you, the good communicator, but emotionally he knows you're fighting and no words to the contrary will change that if he doesn't experience it that way.
To make matters more complicated, I imagine he also likes it when you instruct him because he's insecure and clear rules help keep him out of trouble. However, you need to stop doing this and concentrate on making him feel safe and appreciated and loved. As he is, not as his potential indicates he may be some day. If your need for him to change is so great that you can't do this, then you need to find someone else and so does he.
posted by Obscure Reference at 6:34 AM on January 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
For reasons related to his background/life experiences, my partner has a hard time talking about his feelings and needs.
So when I say something like, “I’d like to talk about our distribution of chores,” he hears “I’m about to tell you the ways in which you’re screwing up”. If I say, “I’d love for you to buy me flowers once in awhile,”, he hears “You’re a bad partner”. If I even say simply “Can we talk about something?” his response is something like "Uh oh" or “Am I in trouble?”.
The summary doesn't match the details. I bolded the contradiction I found most striking: you say he has a hard time talking about his feelings and his needs, but your example shows him only, exclusively, willing to talk about his feelings and needs. He is actually, as described, unwilling to talk about your feelings and needs. Whether this is because he has a hard time with it or because he isn't concerned with them, I couldn't say.
This is not something you necessarily would want to say to him, because if he considers his bad parent(s) narcissistic, it will be awful for him to hear. but he is being incredibly narcissistic, in the ordinary human definition of the word and nothing to do with psychiatric diagnoses: you say a thing about yourself, and he "hears" -- in your own words -- a thing about himself. it's like he has a filter in his brain that strips out anything concerning you, his partner, and translates it into something, anything concerning himself.
it's great to be sensitive and kind and forgiving of your partner, I think everyone should do it. but he is being selfish and I don't think the approach of alternately pushing him out of his comfort zone and babying him when he refuses to play along is doing anything to either make him aware of his selfishness or inspire him to stop. I think it actually makes it worse. and it is of course not your job to reparent him and soothe all the wounds inflicted by his childhood. but it's not just unfair to you, it's pointless because it doesn't fix anything, isn't good for him.
so: if I think pushing at him to talk the way you talk doesn't work, and being tender and solicitous about his wounds doesn't work, what do I think would work? amazingly, I am not building to a suggestion that you dump him. I think, instead, you should be direct and truthful when he tries to prevent you from being truthful by waving his wounds at you. For example: you say "I'd love it if you bought me flowers." He says: Oh, so I'm a bad boyfriend because I never buy you flowers, OK. I feel awful about myself now, I guess I deserve it."
AND THEN YOU SAY: "yeah, you kind of are being a bad boyfriend by making this about you and not me, give it a rest and just buy me some roses next time you pass a florist, OK? it'll make me very happy."
and then, I don't know what happens. maybe he's so shocked he snaps out of it and buys you flowers, maybe he has a total breakdown, maybe he's triggered into starting a fight, but a real fight where he says what he's upset about instead of pretending you're the one who's mean and mad.
following my advice might get you broken up with, but I still think it's a good idea. you're trying to train him into emotional honesty but he's better at manipulation than you, he's countertraining you into emotional dishonesty, where you can't just say he's done something wrong or you want him to do something better without wrapping it in all this protective false camouflage. If he's really dead sincere in all of this, like he really dreads your Talks and isn't pretend-cringing in order to dominate the relationship and dictate the allowable conversations, then he's afraid of exactly what you're proud of: all this mature emotional control and forced neutrality and I-statements. Let yourself say what you mean more -- less I feel that the distribution of our chores needs some open discussion, more God damn it honey, you left the dishes on the counter, do you want ants, that's how you get ants! Non-abusive criticism won't kill him, but the harder you work to suppress it the less he will believe that and the more he will dread whatever he thinks lies beneath your control. And any time you feel like you "have to" say something unnecessarily placatory and nurturing to calm him down, don't say it. experimentally.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:20 PM on January 6, 2018 [17 favorites]
So when I say something like, “I’d like to talk about our distribution of chores,” he hears “I’m about to tell you the ways in which you’re screwing up”. If I say, “I’d love for you to buy me flowers once in awhile,”, he hears “You’re a bad partner”. If I even say simply “Can we talk about something?” his response is something like "Uh oh" or “Am I in trouble?”.
The summary doesn't match the details. I bolded the contradiction I found most striking: you say he has a hard time talking about his feelings and his needs, but your example shows him only, exclusively, willing to talk about his feelings and needs. He is actually, as described, unwilling to talk about your feelings and needs. Whether this is because he has a hard time with it or because he isn't concerned with them, I couldn't say.
This is not something you necessarily would want to say to him, because if he considers his bad parent(s) narcissistic, it will be awful for him to hear. but he is being incredibly narcissistic, in the ordinary human definition of the word and nothing to do with psychiatric diagnoses: you say a thing about yourself, and he "hears" -- in your own words -- a thing about himself. it's like he has a filter in his brain that strips out anything concerning you, his partner, and translates it into something, anything concerning himself.
it's great to be sensitive and kind and forgiving of your partner, I think everyone should do it. but he is being selfish and I don't think the approach of alternately pushing him out of his comfort zone and babying him when he refuses to play along is doing anything to either make him aware of his selfishness or inspire him to stop. I think it actually makes it worse. and it is of course not your job to reparent him and soothe all the wounds inflicted by his childhood. but it's not just unfair to you, it's pointless because it doesn't fix anything, isn't good for him.
so: if I think pushing at him to talk the way you talk doesn't work, and being tender and solicitous about his wounds doesn't work, what do I think would work? amazingly, I am not building to a suggestion that you dump him. I think, instead, you should be direct and truthful when he tries to prevent you from being truthful by waving his wounds at you. For example: you say "I'd love it if you bought me flowers." He says: Oh, so I'm a bad boyfriend because I never buy you flowers, OK. I feel awful about myself now, I guess I deserve it."
AND THEN YOU SAY: "yeah, you kind of are being a bad boyfriend by making this about you and not me, give it a rest and just buy me some roses next time you pass a florist, OK? it'll make me very happy."
and then, I don't know what happens. maybe he's so shocked he snaps out of it and buys you flowers, maybe he has a total breakdown, maybe he's triggered into starting a fight, but a real fight where he says what he's upset about instead of pretending you're the one who's mean and mad.
following my advice might get you broken up with, but I still think it's a good idea. you're trying to train him into emotional honesty but he's better at manipulation than you, he's countertraining you into emotional dishonesty, where you can't just say he's done something wrong or you want him to do something better without wrapping it in all this protective false camouflage. If he's really dead sincere in all of this, like he really dreads your Talks and isn't pretend-cringing in order to dominate the relationship and dictate the allowable conversations, then he's afraid of exactly what you're proud of: all this mature emotional control and forced neutrality and I-statements. Let yourself say what you mean more -- less I feel that the distribution of our chores needs some open discussion, more God damn it honey, you left the dishes on the counter, do you want ants, that's how you get ants! Non-abusive criticism won't kill him, but the harder you work to suppress it the less he will believe that and the more he will dread whatever he thinks lies beneath your control. And any time you feel like you "have to" say something unnecessarily placatory and nurturing to calm him down, don't say it. experimentally.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:20 PM on January 6, 2018 [17 favorites]
I used to have a boyfriend with a similar problem as your partner. I always suspected that he had mild authism or asperger's. It was very hard for him to process his feelings and express them and he also felt very attacked when I raised any problems or criticism, of any kind. For me, expressing my disatisfaction was a means of rectifying what was wrong and improving our relationship. For him, the fact that we had to talk about anything was symptomatic of a failing relationship.
I realized that he wasn't able to understand that having differences and discussing about them was normal and healthy. But it took me some time to realize that he was not being mean or unavailable or unwilling to understand my point of view. He was not capable.
I told him several times that I raising issues was normal and that if I ever did, it was not an attack on him, but an attempt to communicate and improve our relationship. I also told him that he should feel free to bring up any concerns that he had as well... Despite of the explanations I think that he always thought that our relationship wasn't working and that it was because of this that we would need to have these little 'talks'. I guess that the only thing that made him realize that it was normal to have some issues and discuss them was that after we ended our relationship, he started to date someone else, and he saw that she would do the same. That's when it hit him that it wasn't me or our relationship that wasn't working.
I guess that you bringing up these thoughts when you are both happy and relaxed is a good idea. Try to observe his way of processing information and expressing his views and opinions and try to mimick it, so that what you say is intelligible to him. Otherwise, bringing the perspective of a third person might also be helpful and you might benefit from a few sessions of couple's therapy.
posted by Fromthesouth at 7:42 PM on January 6, 2018
I realized that he wasn't able to understand that having differences and discussing about them was normal and healthy. But it took me some time to realize that he was not being mean or unavailable or unwilling to understand my point of view. He was not capable.
I told him several times that I raising issues was normal and that if I ever did, it was not an attack on him, but an attempt to communicate and improve our relationship. I also told him that he should feel free to bring up any concerns that he had as well... Despite of the explanations I think that he always thought that our relationship wasn't working and that it was because of this that we would need to have these little 'talks'. I guess that the only thing that made him realize that it was normal to have some issues and discuss them was that after we ended our relationship, he started to date someone else, and he saw that she would do the same. That's when it hit him that it wasn't me or our relationship that wasn't working.
I guess that you bringing up these thoughts when you are both happy and relaxed is a good idea. Try to observe his way of processing information and expressing his views and opinions and try to mimick it, so that what you say is intelligible to him. Otherwise, bringing the perspective of a third person might also be helpful and you might benefit from a few sessions of couple's therapy.
posted by Fromthesouth at 7:42 PM on January 6, 2018
I don’t know if gender makes a difference, but my wife was like this when we met. She was/is the Scapegoat daughter of a narcissistic mother and had just gotten out of an abusive relationship a year before we met. I am from a very healthy and functional family - a very calm, open, communicative person who prefers honest discussion over conflict and is relatively unflappable. So when I would make even the tiniest statement - “Hey, can you just remember to close the cabinet all the way when you’re done?” It elicited a response from her that was intense and baffling to me.
Long story short we figured out the root and 5 years on the situation is much better. What helped most, I think, was when I had something to say I would be very calm and just say it directly, while maintaining eye contact and often kind of holding her hands or her arms so she couldn’t miss my lack of anger. I needed to reassure her that it was safe for her to hear this - I wasn’t going to yell, hit, or leave her, and I often repeated “this does not mean you’re a bad person,” with a smile. I made sure she saw in my expression that I was not mad or sad or vilifying her - that I still loved and respected her - that this comment does not mean the big thing it’s always meant. It’s different with me.
When we resolved issues healthily we’d acknowledge it out loud - literally we’d say “hey look! I asked you to do something different and nothing bad happened! We’re still here together! And we both feel better! We are an awesome couple who communicates in healthy ways!” And eventually she learned that I wasn’t out to get her and would never hurt her, and she could express the same issues to me and I wouldn’t get upset either and we’d work it out with no drama.
It took a while but I think it really was about getting her to understand I was a safe place and wasn’t going anywhere just because of some disagreement, and ultimately she felt better too when we could both be honest with no negative repercussions.
YMMV but I consider us a success story.
posted by buzzkillington at 10:27 PM on January 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
Long story short we figured out the root and 5 years on the situation is much better. What helped most, I think, was when I had something to say I would be very calm and just say it directly, while maintaining eye contact and often kind of holding her hands or her arms so she couldn’t miss my lack of anger. I needed to reassure her that it was safe for her to hear this - I wasn’t going to yell, hit, or leave her, and I often repeated “this does not mean you’re a bad person,” with a smile. I made sure she saw in my expression that I was not mad or sad or vilifying her - that I still loved and respected her - that this comment does not mean the big thing it’s always meant. It’s different with me.
When we resolved issues healthily we’d acknowledge it out loud - literally we’d say “hey look! I asked you to do something different and nothing bad happened! We’re still here together! And we both feel better! We are an awesome couple who communicates in healthy ways!” And eventually she learned that I wasn’t out to get her and would never hurt her, and she could express the same issues to me and I wouldn’t get upset either and we’d work it out with no drama.
It took a while but I think it really was about getting her to understand I was a safe place and wasn’t going anywhere just because of some disagreement, and ultimately she felt better too when we could both be honest with no negative repercussions.
YMMV but I consider us a success story.
posted by buzzkillington at 10:27 PM on January 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
I was going to give this question a pass but it's haunting me so here goes.
I have a big list of books and resources that helped me (from your husband's position). They worked because I wanted to change. And I didn't just want to change because I wanted to have a better marriage to my incredible spouse (although that was a good chunk)...that wouldn't have worked. I wanted to be better - feel better, treat people decently, not torpedo my own life. So the reason I was not answering your question is that I think it needs to be your husband asking it.
That said, I would like to say what queenofbythnia said, more or less. He does not need to be more open about his feelings. His feelings are absolutely dominating your relationship.
Because when he was growing up he learned that human relationships are ruled by narcissistic supply and demand/pain/etc. As soon as you touch on anything that produces a feeling akin to shame in him, everything (in the world, literally, for him) is about those feelings and he no longer listens to your words or remembers your actions past or present. Everything is about making that feeling stopstopstop. It used to be about making it stop in his parent or abuser, but now he's waffling on that being him.
And honestly, if I were talking to him, I would point out that this is the absolute moral and ethical fight of his life. Is he going to be the person that kills your relationship by making regular, normal, every day discussions and disagreements matters of nuclear warfare (whether by arguing, withdrawing, or self-harm) or is he going to work to normalize his ability to hear the human beings around him.
That's a work that probably needs serious professional help (mine did.)
For you --
When you halt everything/spend time researching/try to change and change and change and cuddle and cuddle and cuddle because of his flooded and narcissism-related feelings, you are reinforcing the belief that they are the big thing. In fact, he needs to work towards hearing you about the chores despite the feelings. He needs to learn to deal with days you are tired and grumpy and don't want to cuddle him and come at things exactly right. He needs to understand that his feelings are not facts, like "I feel like you are attacking me, so someone must be Bad."
This is very difficult work that is his, but you looking for the best way to approach him is kind of like adding a small amount of fuel to his pile for when it all goes up in the flames of his shame. So maybe that is work for you. I don't say this to say you're doing anything unkind. It's just maybe the wrong thing. It works in the moment but it won't get you two to true partnership.
I know what things my husband did for me, which sometimes worked and sometimes didn't. But the largest thing he did was refuse to treat my feelings as the most important thing in the relationship. Does he and did he care about my feelings? Yes. Of course. But they are only one piece of me, in fact a very transient, sometimes random piece of me that shouldn't be entirely ignored but also don't deserve more room at the table than normal feelings. (This is different from making good decisions based on feeling or intuition, which has a nice spot at the head table, so to speak.)
I would recommend for both of you the book Why Is It Always About You?. It's a book on narcissism that has a really solid section on why children of narcissists behave like narcissists, as well as a lot of information about narcissists. And I would really recommend books on boundaries for you.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:45 AM on January 7, 2018 [14 favorites]
I have a big list of books and resources that helped me (from your husband's position). They worked because I wanted to change. And I didn't just want to change because I wanted to have a better marriage to my incredible spouse (although that was a good chunk)...that wouldn't have worked. I wanted to be better - feel better, treat people decently, not torpedo my own life. So the reason I was not answering your question is that I think it needs to be your husband asking it.
That said, I would like to say what queenofbythnia said, more or less. He does not need to be more open about his feelings. His feelings are absolutely dominating your relationship.
Because when he was growing up he learned that human relationships are ruled by narcissistic supply and demand/pain/etc. As soon as you touch on anything that produces a feeling akin to shame in him, everything (in the world, literally, for him) is about those feelings and he no longer listens to your words or remembers your actions past or present. Everything is about making that feeling stopstopstop. It used to be about making it stop in his parent or abuser, but now he's waffling on that being him.
And honestly, if I were talking to him, I would point out that this is the absolute moral and ethical fight of his life. Is he going to be the person that kills your relationship by making regular, normal, every day discussions and disagreements matters of nuclear warfare (whether by arguing, withdrawing, or self-harm) or is he going to work to normalize his ability to hear the human beings around him.
That's a work that probably needs serious professional help (mine did.)
For you --
When you halt everything/spend time researching/try to change and change and change and cuddle and cuddle and cuddle because of his flooded and narcissism-related feelings, you are reinforcing the belief that they are the big thing. In fact, he needs to work towards hearing you about the chores despite the feelings. He needs to learn to deal with days you are tired and grumpy and don't want to cuddle him and come at things exactly right. He needs to understand that his feelings are not facts, like "I feel like you are attacking me, so someone must be Bad."
This is very difficult work that is his, but you looking for the best way to approach him is kind of like adding a small amount of fuel to his pile for when it all goes up in the flames of his shame. So maybe that is work for you. I don't say this to say you're doing anything unkind. It's just maybe the wrong thing. It works in the moment but it won't get you two to true partnership.
I know what things my husband did for me, which sometimes worked and sometimes didn't. But the largest thing he did was refuse to treat my feelings as the most important thing in the relationship. Does he and did he care about my feelings? Yes. Of course. But they are only one piece of me, in fact a very transient, sometimes random piece of me that shouldn't be entirely ignored but also don't deserve more room at the table than normal feelings. (This is different from making good decisions based on feeling or intuition, which has a nice spot at the head table, so to speak.)
I would recommend for both of you the book Why Is It Always About You?. It's a book on narcissism that has a really solid section on why children of narcissists behave like narcissists, as well as a lot of information about narcissists. And I would really recommend books on boundaries for you.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:45 AM on January 7, 2018 [14 favorites]
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It's lovely that you want to help him, and he'll get a lot farther with your support, but this really needs to be his thing to work on, with a therapist. He needs to talk about all the times where his feelings/needs/wants were put off or ignored or mocked. He needs to talk about mourning the childhood he should have had. He needs help and guidance and you're not trained for it, and it's super hard going it alone. Could he eventually get there on his own, reading books, etc.? Maybe. But he'll get there so much faster with a therapist.
posted by cooker girl at 10:51 AM on January 5, 2018 [37 favorites]