How much of other people's pain should you choose to experience?

January 16, 2020 11:24 AM

My mind often goes to the (seemingly many) people in my life who are hurting or struggling and when I think of them I feel glum. I know very well that I can't help them and anyway I have my own problems though these are more tractable. Generally I can control my mind's reflections; I believe my gloomy thoughts are mostly voluntary. But I don't think it's moral or honorable to shunt them away entirely. I'm just unsure where/how to draw the line.

I realize there is no virtue in suffering. But:

• Compassion/empathy/sympathy is a skill and deserves exercise like any other important skill.
• When I'm allowing myself awareness of someone's struggles I'm better able to help them in those times when I actually can help them. And I'm pretty smart, I might eventually see things they miss.
• There is something obscene about pursuing enjoyment in my life when other people I know are being denied the opportunity. I will not be a narcissist or a solipsist.

These are a few of the ideas my brain will readily hand me when I try to get into some dumb fun. I can debate them well individually, but at times they dogpile me. Probably I'm a little depressed, but who wouldn't be? Maybe I should be volunteering my time somewhere to make my brain believe I'm helping.

I'm aware this is all too much, but how much of these kinds of thoughts would still be healthy?

posted by mf_ss to Human Relations (13 answers total)

The New Yorker recently had a fascinating piece about Jo Cameron, a woman in Scotland who is genetically incapable of feeling pain, including emotional pain. She's never been angry or anxious or afraid. But despite being unable to feel empathy on a visceral level, she's a remarkably loving, caring person. Here's a snippet that's been turning around in my head:

Paul Bloom, a professor of psychology at Yale and the author of the book “Against Empathy,” maintains that relating to suffering has little to do with the capacity to be helpful and kind. He has published research suggesting that compassion, not empathy, drives altruistic behavior. (Most research on the subject blurs together empathy and compassion, but Bloom argues that this is a failure of experimental design: “The standard measures suck.”) “Empathy can actually get in the way—if you are in terrible pain and I feel so much empathy for you that, being with you, I feel it, too, I may decide to stay home,” he told me. “The Buddhists knew this. There’s all this teaching that says, ‘Don’t get sentimental. Joyously and lovingly help others, but don’t get in their heads.’ ” Cameron, he told me, was a perfect illustration of his point: “She’s my dream girl. She doesn’t feel the pain of others, so she doesn’t feel empathy per se. But she cares for others.”

posted by theodolite at 11:48 AM on January 16, 2020 [27 favorites]

It helps me to understand that my suffering due to another's suffering is unhelpful to all parties unless I translate the feeling into action, whether it's large-scale like donating money/time, calling a government rep, or a more personal thing like sending a card, sending/bringing food, scheduling a phone visit, etc.

Action also seems to help to inoculate me against future despairing.
posted by quince at 12:08 PM on January 16, 2020 [8 favorites]

There is something obscene about pursuing enjoyment in my life when other people I know are being denied the opportunity. I will not be a narcissist or a solipsist.

There's nothing obscene about experiencing joy as long as you are not doing that by somehow harming someone in a non-consensual way. I'd re-frame this. Experiencing pleasure or joy while someone else is having a hard time is not narcissistic. Rather, it's self-centered to make their pain about you. Truly, the best way for you to care about others and contribute to making it better for them isn't to naval-gaze about their misery but to take good care of yourself and use those extra resources (by they mental, physical, or financial) to make a positive contribution.

I have a dear friend who hurt someone he cared about deeply during a break up and spent the next month or so feeling like a "monster" (his words). He was centering his hurt at hurting her over her hurt. In this case, they weren't interacting. Months later, it turned out that while she was sad and hurt at the break up, she thought his break up was a good decision. All that time he was so self-absorbed but it wasn't even real. It was his own insecurities and poor self-esteem that were talking to him, not the reality of the situation.

So, the questions you are asking are great questions to ask in therapy. But I don't think the existence of suffering somehow means you are not allowed to, or should feel bad about, experiencing joy.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:21 PM on January 16, 2020 [5 favorites]

Probably I'm a little depressed, but who wouldn't be?

With respect, lots of people. The general mindset that everything is terrible is a mindset and not an objective fact. I share your general feelings that things are, in a number of ways I care about, sort of bad. But there are other people in my social sphere who will acknowledge this as true while also not getting down about it or having it be an obstacle to going out and having fun, living their life, etc. For some of us, there is not really an "OFF"valve to empathy and so as much as you are able to think about bad things (and for some people it's a lot) you are unable to enjoy other things. This is a trap.

And my friends carry the weight of whatever's going on around them that is bad in many different ways. Some of them need to "process" it (i.e. talk over their negative interactions and feelings) with others. Some of them do what they can within limits (donate money or energy or interact in a helpful way) and then compartmentalize and do other things. Some of them head-in-sand ignore the bad things. And while it might not be my way of processing or dealing with things, it's a choice people can make.

So the thing we say in AskMe is to put on your own oxygen mask first which is, in short, to make sure you are stable and are not giving more (emotionally, spiritually, financially) than you are able. But beyond this, it's a moral compass question. Some people feel better when they help others more whether those are friends or strangers or pets or Wikipedia.

Some people get drained from this. I, for example, can no longer listen to my friend vent about the crap that happens to her at work because at some point I just realized that this is just how her life works, she doesn't want advice she just wants to rant and complain. And for some reason her husband is not a supportive listener to her about this stuff. And so she gravitated towards me about it not because we're exceptionally close, but because I had poor boundaries about being a good listener ("maybe I can help her process this") but in fact I was an interchangeable person from her perspective and being in her negative space was hard for me. Only you know how much this takes out of you.

I have a lot of reciprocal friendships in which we each have "complaining time" about the same amount of time. Or with my partner, for example, we try to encourage each other to take a more positive view (not to deny things, but just not to focus, get sticky or "stuck around the axle" on them) but also, when things are really hard, are there to be a compassionate listener. I can be a bit bean-countery about this but I really do have a list in my head "People I will listen to them complain" and "everyone else" the former list has about five people on it.

Maybe I should be volunteering my time somewhere to make my brain believe I'm helping.

It's always good to find a way in which you can meaningfully contribute.
posted by jessamyn at 12:36 PM on January 16, 2020 [16 favorites]

This is something that comes up a lot if you have any involvement with animal welfare. I realized very very early on that I could not read the details of cruelty cases or even spend too much time pondering the suffering of the dogs in shelters and such, because it would just break me. And when I'm crying, I'm not doing anything useful, and eventually I was going to burn out. Somewhere Henry James refers to a sort of "impersonal compassion" of the kind that must be practiced by the nurses of his time and so on, tending kindly to the sick without getting bogged down, and I think there's a lot of value to the concept.
posted by praemunire at 1:04 PM on January 16, 2020 [3 favorites]

It's a harsh truth, but at the end of the day, what you feel matters to nobody except you. What you do matters to everybody who encounters you.

So yes, volunteer your time, but not because you want to try and trick your own brain somehow, but because if you volunteer, it will make other people's lives better (far more than you using your time to think about other people's problems).

And I'm pretty smart, I might eventually see things they miss.

Odds are you won't. In most circumstances, you're unlikely to find an insight into someone else's problem that hasn't already occurred to the person who's living that problem 24/7. There are probably some insights into behaviour or mindset that are obvious to everyone but the person concerned, but those are probably best explored in the therapist's office.

(Also: One the best pieces of advice I've ever received was: "Never offer unsolicited advice". People don't want it and they aren't ready to hear it, even if it's great advice, it's just not useful on most occasions unless the person is actively looking for advice).

If you do happen to have a lot of friends who specifically want you to offer them solutions (rather than just listening while they talk about the difficulties of their life, which IMHO is what most people want), I think the best advice comes from people who've experienced the same thing themselves, not just people who've thought a lot about it.

So if you want to become a better, more valuable friend and citizen, get out there and get doing and living and listening, rather than borrowing others' pain in an effort to understand it. Bonus: If you're out and busy and contributing, you'll have less time to dwell on the world's pain.

(I realise it's not as simple as just "stop thinking about it", I realise these thoughts can be persistent and hard to shake off. But I think your question is more about whether you have a moral obligation to think about other people's pain, so that's more what I'm answering.)
posted by penguin pie at 1:14 PM on January 16, 2020 [10 favorites]

For me, one of the main warning signs that I'm sinking into depression is that I start to empathize with other people's pain to a debilitating, paralyzing degree. When I start feeling that way, it's a sure sign that I need to manage my depression -- but before I figured that out, I used to get stuck in ethical quandaries like the one you describe. You might try asking yourself: "Is this empathy leading me to take helpful actions?" If not, it may not be particularly useful for you or for the person you're empathizing with.

There are many different ways to define "empathy". The one you are describing (and that I use as a personal red flag) is more specifically defined as "empathic distress" or "emotional contagion" -- when you seem to feel the other person's feelings, and it causes you distress. There's some evidence that this type of empathy actually makes you less likely to act (which accords with my personal experience). There are other, more action-oriented types of empathy -- specifically, one called "perspective-taking" where you imagine what someone else might be thinking or feeling. This article outlines several different types of empathy, and some of the limitations of each -- you might find it interesting to consider. It is possible to be aware of someone else's struggles and work to help without being debilitatingly distressed by the experience.

All of this is to say that I don't think empathy is necessarily ethical in and of itself -- it's more about what you do with it, and some types of empathy might be more conducive to helpful action than others. If you're feeling empathic distress in a way that is harming you, then you might consider tending to your own mental health first, so you can be more useful to others in the future.

I wish you luck in figuring this out-- it's clear you're doing your best to do the right thing. I feel you :)
posted by ourobouros at 1:43 PM on January 16, 2020 [6 favorites]

I come at this from the perspective of the boddhisatva. A boddhisatva tries to save all sentient beings even though they are innumerable and even though it will take them endless lifetimes. They get discouraged and give up some times. But then they re-commit and dedicate themselves to the impossible task of knowing the suffering of all beings, feeling compassion for all beings, and trying to save them. The bodhisattva could throw their hands up and give up, and transcend to nirvana, but no, they choose to keep coming back over countless lifetimes to try to do good in the face of suffering.
This is a powerful story for me and helps me handle suffering in the world and the tininess of my own abilities to help. We can't and won't fix this. Especially not in one lifetime. But we can always commit to act.

You can draw the line at thinking you are actively responsible or in some way better placed than an individual person would be in sorting their life out. "Help" doesn't have to be and really most times can't or shouldn't be concrete action or fixing things. Help is often best when it takes the form of awareness, compassion, kindness, and generosity of time and spirit.
posted by Balthamos at 2:15 PM on January 16, 2020 [5 favorites]

What you are feeling is empathy, but too much empathy without an outlet can lead to stress called vicarious trauma. It can be very challenging if you have no one you can dump your feelings and pain on in way that is non-judgmental and therapeutic.

I recently underwent rape and sexual violence awareness and safeguarding training for my job as a fundraising manager for a non-profit.
I lost several nights of sleep and entered into a big fog as a result of one three-minute roleplay as an adult survivor of child sexual abuse. I was praised for my acting by a colleague and it made me feel sick to my stomach.

I am lucky I raised the alarm about how I was feeling to people who were trained to deal with it and now receive clinical supervision every month. If you volunteer and don't get the training to be able to let go when you are on your own time, and especially, when it is inappropriate for you to be the person who needs to take care of someone else, you may not only put yourself at risk. Raising the red flag yourself is not a shameful act.

Remember that compassion, empathy and sympathy are not one skill, they are three.
It is not narcissistic to care about your own emotional and physical wellbeing while caring for the wellbeing of others.
posted by parmanparman at 3:47 PM on January 16, 2020 [2 favorites]

The Thai Buddhist monk Ajahn Amaro has a little booklet about Compassion that might be helpful. It might be a little unclear at first if you're not experienced in Buddhist writing, but it's actually very clearly written if you give it a little time to let the ideas play out in different layers.

Here is an excerpt:
"But the Buddhist principle
of compassion is talking about something else. It is fully
attentive and open to the pain of others, but does not suffer
on account of that pain. I think most Westerners would agree
that, culturally, this is hard for us to comprehend, let alone
achieve. Usually we either turn away and remain indifferent to
the suffering of others, or we feel upset or angry on their behalf
and desperately try to help. We have an interesting cultural
tendency to show that we care by getting angry or upset. But
when we are faced with the suffering of others, or with our own
suffering, our own feelings of grief, there is a place we can find
in our heart which is fully attentive and appreciative of that
pain, but not swept up in a reaction against it or carried along
by the current of it, which knows the pain fully but does not
suffer on account of it."

I have also found a podcast and a YouTube video of a talk by the same teacher that may or may not have some overlapping ideas as the booklet. I have read the booklet and found it very helpful, but have not listened to the podcast or the speech.
posted by matildaben at 4:28 PM on January 16, 2020 [6 favorites]

Compassion/empathy/sympathy is a skill and deserves exercise like any other important skill.

These are three different things.

Sympathy is the awareness of other people's pain and a wishing to help.
Empathy is the experiencing of other people's pain.
Compassion is an emotion that arises from one or both of the above.

Virtually everyone has some level of sympathy, but empathy is much more unevenly distributed. Empathy makes life much richer but it can give rise to the situation you're experiencing.

I'm just unsure where/how to draw the line.

You owe your friends compassion. How you arrive there is your own business, but I would suggest that your friends wouldn't want you to be feeling their pain.

Wanting to help them is the key. You may not be doing it 100% of the time, but when you abandon your desire to help them is when you've stepped off the edge.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:17 PM on January 16, 2020 [1 favorite]

Sympathy is the awareness of other people's pain and a wishing to help.
Empathy is the experiencing of other people's pain.
Compassion is an emotion that arises from one or both of the above.

A side note you may find of use:

I am overburdened with empathy, and perhaps as a response to that I've fallen in with friends who have almost none. It keeps me grounded.

Anyway, after knowing each other for twenty years, one of my barely empathetic friends came to me and said she was starting a new career. As a priest.

That sounded a bit crazy, considering. However, now that I know to look for it I see it in most of the priests I meet and it has started to make a lot of sense. You can not have people coming to you day in and day out with their troubles and be empathetic. It would kill you.

She is extremely sympathetic and compassionate however, and as a result she does her job very well without the wear and tear. Just something to consider.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:30 PM on January 16, 2020 [2 favorites]

Response by poster: Thanks for your comments. My summary: follow the guiding principle of doing whatever produces the best outcome predictably. Pain is helpful only to the degree it helps you to help, and usually that means very little pain. Because pain is a distraction and an inhibitor to motivation. (For example, when you're depressed you tend to accomplish less, at least outwardly.) That all makes sense to me. I should have been able to figure that out, and it's telling that I didn't.
posted by mf_ss at 5:50 AM on January 19, 2020 [1 favorite]