Misunderstanding and conflict with a friend. How to best resolve?
January 11, 2020 8:49 AM Subscribe
I made an admittedly stupid "joke" with a good friend of mine, and things did not go over well. I'd like thoughts on how to smooth things over.
A friend of mine, Dorothy (who I asked about last year in terms of her service dog entering my apartment; the situation was eventually resolved) had her birthday around a month ago. Due to timing constraints, I was unable to celebrate her birthday on the day of, but managed to get together with her and a few other friends at a friend's house, having dinner and drinks.
Fast forward to last night—Dorothy and I agreed to meet at a deaf event at a bar and catch up. When Dorothy arrived to the bar, one of the first things she asked me was "how about a birthday drink for me?" Thinking she was ironic, I laughed, and she then said something along the lines of asking if I was treating her to a drink. I felt a bit put on the spot, but decided to go with it, as I was internally planning to treat her anyway. I treated her to a shared drink, we had a good time drinking it, although I noticed she was distracted and kept talking to people, so she did not have her full focus on me while we were talking. Not a big deal, but I felt a bit ignored. I'm sure her intentions were good, though.
After the drink was downed (it wasn't much, actually, to the tune of around $15 and mostly ice), I half-jokingly told Dorothy she could use her charm/beauty and birthday "card" to ask the bartender to refill the drink for free for us, by arguing that they had diluted the drink with mostly ice. She said she did not want to reduce herself to that, but she was laughing when she said that. My bad, I misinterpreted that as a joke. She turned away and talked with other friends, then turned back to me. I followed up and said something along the lines of "so how about trying to charm the bartender?" I was half joking, but figured it couldn't hurt to ask one more time. She said no. I said that was okay, that I was just being a bit ironic. She then talked with other people, and eventually left. I asked her for a dinner/lunch date, and she said she would text me. She seemed fine with me. She left, I continued to mingle.
A while later, I got a text from her basically saying she did not appreciate me trying to ask her to do something she did not want to do/was not her, and that she felt I put her on the spot. She seemed annoyed. I replied, apologized, said it was not my intention, that I was half-joking, and that I hope she enjoyed her drink. This morning, I woke up to an angry text by her saying that, yes, it was my intention, that she did not appreciate it at all, and that it was not a birthday drink to her. She then said she was leaving it alone.
I feel put off by this, and really hurt. Here's why.
a) She, in the past, had joked with me about charming bartenders for free drinks. I thought she was open-minded enough to appreciate the joke, especially coming from a gay-identifying friend. I do vaguely remember her doing/saying the same thing herself, which is why I didn't think it would be a big deal.
b) She was the one who put me on the spot in the first place by asking me to treat her to a birthday drink.
c) Nowhere in person or on her text did she show any appreciation to the drink itself. Not even a soft "hey, I really enjoyed the drink, but perhaps next time don't ask me to flatter the bartender for a free refill, that made me feel a bit uncomfortable, but I really appreciate the birthday drink." She made it seem really harsh, really blunt, and like it was a terrible transgression I had done.
d) The point-blank "yes it was your intention" response assumption/narrative was insulting. I'm more than happy to listen and get feedback, or be told truthful things like this, but it seemed so harsh and disproportionate to the transgression. I never twisted her arm, I never pressured her into doing anything, it was all casual fun. I feel I was not given a fair chance to really explain my perspective or clarify my intentions.
I fully recognize I may have made a mistake, asked her to do a dumb thing; perhaps I could have been a bit more classier and handled the situation better, or picked up cues in the first place. That was my bad, but I feel this is completely one-sided coming from her, and she did not give me a chance to "come clean"—this coming after a really bad day yesterday, too, which she was aware of.
This isn't the first time, either. In the past, she has gotten angry at me through text... while not insulting me, or saying mean things about me, she has, randomly, brought up something that could have easily been resolved in person, on text. Strangely enough, she's not passive-aggressive, but she does have a tendency to bring things up on text and not face-to-face, which comes as a surprise to me. For example, last night's situation could have easily been resolved if she had asked to talk to me privately, and told me that she did not feel comfortable (with a serious face) with cajoling the bartender to refill the drink for free. I would have apologized and stopped right there. I literally thought the "joke" wouldn't be a problem with her, as she had (to my best understanding) done it before. Things were building up a bit with her before this, and I had planned to try to talk to her one-to-one, such as her criticizing a job choice I made, and a general feeling of disbalance in the friendship sometimes. However, at this point, I'm unsure how to resolve this, and the friendship, in general.
When I try to talk to her sometimes, it often comes across as "she's always right" and there's not much chance or opportunity for me to share my perspective or side of a situation; her mind is made up, period. Now, she has 'left it alone' (and I have not responded), but the anger/tension still hangs. I'm fully happy to recognize last night might not have been my finest moment, but I feel stonewalled. I want to air out my concerns and thoughts, but I'm afraid they'll be squashed or minimized. I want to feel like this is a safe space for both of us, not just her.
If any of you have had a similar experience/conflict, your thoughts and input would be much appreciated! I really value this friendship and want to make it work, and am, of course, open to self-improvement, but at the same time, I want to be heard and not walked over like I kind of was last year with the dog situation (and some past incidents). I'm also willing to accept that we may just be incompatible, but any advice would be helpful. Thank you, and happy 2020!
A friend of mine, Dorothy (who I asked about last year in terms of her service dog entering my apartment; the situation was eventually resolved) had her birthday around a month ago. Due to timing constraints, I was unable to celebrate her birthday on the day of, but managed to get together with her and a few other friends at a friend's house, having dinner and drinks.
Fast forward to last night—Dorothy and I agreed to meet at a deaf event at a bar and catch up. When Dorothy arrived to the bar, one of the first things she asked me was "how about a birthday drink for me?" Thinking she was ironic, I laughed, and she then said something along the lines of asking if I was treating her to a drink. I felt a bit put on the spot, but decided to go with it, as I was internally planning to treat her anyway. I treated her to a shared drink, we had a good time drinking it, although I noticed she was distracted and kept talking to people, so she did not have her full focus on me while we were talking. Not a big deal, but I felt a bit ignored. I'm sure her intentions were good, though.
After the drink was downed (it wasn't much, actually, to the tune of around $15 and mostly ice), I half-jokingly told Dorothy she could use her charm/beauty and birthday "card" to ask the bartender to refill the drink for free for us, by arguing that they had diluted the drink with mostly ice. She said she did not want to reduce herself to that, but she was laughing when she said that. My bad, I misinterpreted that as a joke. She turned away and talked with other friends, then turned back to me. I followed up and said something along the lines of "so how about trying to charm the bartender?" I was half joking, but figured it couldn't hurt to ask one more time. She said no. I said that was okay, that I was just being a bit ironic. She then talked with other people, and eventually left. I asked her for a dinner/lunch date, and she said she would text me. She seemed fine with me. She left, I continued to mingle.
A while later, I got a text from her basically saying she did not appreciate me trying to ask her to do something she did not want to do/was not her, and that she felt I put her on the spot. She seemed annoyed. I replied, apologized, said it was not my intention, that I was half-joking, and that I hope she enjoyed her drink. This morning, I woke up to an angry text by her saying that, yes, it was my intention, that she did not appreciate it at all, and that it was not a birthday drink to her. She then said she was leaving it alone.
I feel put off by this, and really hurt. Here's why.
a) She, in the past, had joked with me about charming bartenders for free drinks. I thought she was open-minded enough to appreciate the joke, especially coming from a gay-identifying friend. I do vaguely remember her doing/saying the same thing herself, which is why I didn't think it would be a big deal.
b) She was the one who put me on the spot in the first place by asking me to treat her to a birthday drink.
c) Nowhere in person or on her text did she show any appreciation to the drink itself. Not even a soft "hey, I really enjoyed the drink, but perhaps next time don't ask me to flatter the bartender for a free refill, that made me feel a bit uncomfortable, but I really appreciate the birthday drink." She made it seem really harsh, really blunt, and like it was a terrible transgression I had done.
d) The point-blank "yes it was your intention" response assumption/narrative was insulting. I'm more than happy to listen and get feedback, or be told truthful things like this, but it seemed so harsh and disproportionate to the transgression. I never twisted her arm, I never pressured her into doing anything, it was all casual fun. I feel I was not given a fair chance to really explain my perspective or clarify my intentions.
I fully recognize I may have made a mistake, asked her to do a dumb thing; perhaps I could have been a bit more classier and handled the situation better, or picked up cues in the first place. That was my bad, but I feel this is completely one-sided coming from her, and she did not give me a chance to "come clean"—this coming after a really bad day yesterday, too, which she was aware of.
This isn't the first time, either. In the past, she has gotten angry at me through text... while not insulting me, or saying mean things about me, she has, randomly, brought up something that could have easily been resolved in person, on text. Strangely enough, she's not passive-aggressive, but she does have a tendency to bring things up on text and not face-to-face, which comes as a surprise to me. For example, last night's situation could have easily been resolved if she had asked to talk to me privately, and told me that she did not feel comfortable (with a serious face) with cajoling the bartender to refill the drink for free. I would have apologized and stopped right there. I literally thought the "joke" wouldn't be a problem with her, as she had (to my best understanding) done it before. Things were building up a bit with her before this, and I had planned to try to talk to her one-to-one, such as her criticizing a job choice I made, and a general feeling of disbalance in the friendship sometimes. However, at this point, I'm unsure how to resolve this, and the friendship, in general.
When I try to talk to her sometimes, it often comes across as "she's always right" and there's not much chance or opportunity for me to share my perspective or side of a situation; her mind is made up, period. Now, she has 'left it alone' (and I have not responded), but the anger/tension still hangs. I'm fully happy to recognize last night might not have been my finest moment, but I feel stonewalled. I want to air out my concerns and thoughts, but I'm afraid they'll be squashed or minimized. I want to feel like this is a safe space for both of us, not just her.
If any of you have had a similar experience/conflict, your thoughts and input would be much appreciated! I really value this friendship and want to make it work, and am, of course, open to self-improvement, but at the same time, I want to be heard and not walked over like I kind of was last year with the dog situation (and some past incidents). I'm also willing to accept that we may just be incompatible, but any advice would be helpful. Thank you, and happy 2020!
"Dorothy, I truly value our friendship, and clearly I was insensitive to you. Please accept my sincere apologies."
If you value the friendship, don't get stuck in petty crap about who was right and who is wrong. Apologies are powerful and healing, and if delivered sincerely are very effective at reducing tension.
posted by elf27 at 9:27 AM on January 11, 2020 [24 favorites]
If you value the friendship, don't get stuck in petty crap about who was right and who is wrong. Apologies are powerful and healing, and if delivered sincerely are very effective at reducing tension.
posted by elf27 at 9:27 AM on January 11, 2020 [24 favorites]
She sounds annoying. She is consistently demanding and sensitive. Time to slowly fade away....
posted by pando11 at 9:55 AM on January 11, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by pando11 at 9:55 AM on January 11, 2020 [4 favorites]
I feel like the phrase “half-joking” is doing a lot of heavy lifting in this story. You’re using it to imply it was a joke and she should lighten up about it. But it also means you were half serious, and even though she didn’t want to do it, you persisted in asking her again. Maybe stop with the half-joking - at least with this friend. Either mean what you say, and only suggest stuff you can stand by as a reasonable request, or say it as a joke and don’t mind at all when it gets swatted away. But being serious enough to ask twice and then blaming her for getting cross because you were only joking is kind of disingenuous.
So yeah, I’d just apologise and try and choose a side in future, don’t try and sneak serious suggestions in under cover of laughter and then back off when you get called out.
posted by penguin pie at 9:57 AM on January 11, 2020 [101 favorites]
So yeah, I’d just apologise and try and choose a side in future, don’t try and sneak serious suggestions in under cover of laughter and then back off when you get called out.
posted by penguin pie at 9:57 AM on January 11, 2020 [101 favorites]
Why exactly do you keep this person as a friend? I'd be looking for a more compatible group of friends to hang out with. Good relationships aren't this hard.
posted by summerstorm at 9:58 AM on January 11, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by summerstorm at 9:58 AM on January 11, 2020 [6 favorites]
I never twisted her arm, I never pressured her into doing anything,
I mean, yes you did -- you went back to this request, by your own account, three times.
it was all casual fun.
No, it wasn't. You having fun doesn't make it fun for her.
This morning, I woke up to an angry text by her saying that, yes, it was my intention,
I mean, she said declined and deflected and you kept pushing her to do something she didn't want to do, so...
I was half joking, but figured it couldn't hurt to ask one more time.
You owe her a genuine apology. One that is just an apology, not one that makes excuses or tells her she's overreacting or says sorry for her feelings. One that apologises for your actions and your inability to accept her no.
You could also apologize for gracelessly complaining to her about the birthday drink you bought for her. That puts her in an impossible social situation and is rude.
posted by DarlingBri at 10:10 AM on January 11, 2020 [73 favorites]
I mean, yes you did -- you went back to this request, by your own account, three times.
it was all casual fun.
No, it wasn't. You having fun doesn't make it fun for her.
This morning, I woke up to an angry text by her saying that, yes, it was my intention,
I mean, she said declined and deflected and you kept pushing her to do something she didn't want to do, so...
I was half joking, but figured it couldn't hurt to ask one more time.
You owe her a genuine apology. One that is just an apology, not one that makes excuses or tells her she's overreacting or says sorry for her feelings. One that apologises for your actions and your inability to accept her no.
You could also apologize for gracelessly complaining to her about the birthday drink you bought for her. That puts her in an impossible social situation and is rude.
posted by DarlingBri at 10:10 AM on January 11, 2020 [73 favorites]
When Dorothy arrived to the bar, one of the first things she asked me was "how about a birthday drink for me?”
You said you had already celebrated her birthday at a previous gathering, and it was no longer her birthday. From my perspective, this request seems over the top, but I don't know your friendship or your birthday-celebration styles -- does she return the favor on your birthday? Or is there a pattern of her asking/expecting things from you, that she doesn't reciprocate?
She turned away and talked with other friends
So... you bought your friend a drink and then she ignored you at the bar?
I half-jokingly told Dorothy she could use her charm/beauty and birthday "card" to ask the bartender to refill the drink for free for us
By half-joking, was this really a joke, or were you indirectly expressing your discomfort with Dorothy's request for a birthday drink? (Freely acknowledging that I have done this and it never improves the situation!)
Looking at this and your past AskMe about this friend, it seems like you both have different expectations of friendship/what friends do/how friends act around one another.
You seem like someone who quietly absorbs conflict and responds indirectly or not at all, and needs reassurance when having an argument that both parties value and respect one another. She seems like someone who prefers to deal with conflict with angry text messages. As someone on the "polite and indirect" side of things I would find it very stressful to be friends with Dorothy, but I also do have friends who are more volatile, who I find value in maintaining my relationship with — I just treat them more as activity partners and don’t confide my inner feelings to them.
What are you getting out of being friends with Dorothy? Do you actually enjoy spending time with her? Are any benefits outweighed by the fact that you clearly find interacting with her to be very stressful?
posted by rogerroger at 10:19 AM on January 11, 2020 [6 favorites]
You said you had already celebrated her birthday at a previous gathering, and it was no longer her birthday. From my perspective, this request seems over the top, but I don't know your friendship or your birthday-celebration styles -- does she return the favor on your birthday? Or is there a pattern of her asking/expecting things from you, that she doesn't reciprocate?
She turned away and talked with other friends
So... you bought your friend a drink and then she ignored you at the bar?
I half-jokingly told Dorothy she could use her charm/beauty and birthday "card" to ask the bartender to refill the drink for free for us
By half-joking, was this really a joke, or were you indirectly expressing your discomfort with Dorothy's request for a birthday drink? (Freely acknowledging that I have done this and it never improves the situation!)
Looking at this and your past AskMe about this friend, it seems like you both have different expectations of friendship/what friends do/how friends act around one another.
You seem like someone who quietly absorbs conflict and responds indirectly or not at all, and needs reassurance when having an argument that both parties value and respect one another. She seems like someone who prefers to deal with conflict with angry text messages. As someone on the "polite and indirect" side of things I would find it very stressful to be friends with Dorothy, but I also do have friends who are more volatile, who I find value in maintaining my relationship with — I just treat them more as activity partners and don’t confide my inner feelings to them.
What are you getting out of being friends with Dorothy? Do you actually enjoy spending time with her? Are any benefits outweighed by the fact that you clearly find interacting with her to be very stressful?
posted by rogerroger at 10:19 AM on January 11, 2020 [6 favorites]
I'm sorry, but is she deaf, or are you both? From reading this, I'm wondering if only she is - which would make her preference to text messaging an obvious choice, especially if there is lip reading or signing necessary on her part. Texting has clarity, if not the emotional indicators - which, btw, you should have been paying attention to in person anyway. She was distracted? Perhaps it was a way of not being rude to you in the moment when you'd first posed the question, or that something about your manner was bothering her before then, and she couldn't put her finger on it. I understand those who are saying they'd dump her as a friend, but I'd do some self reflection first, just to see if you might not have played a bigger part in your treatment than you think. This is especially so if she is lacking one of our taken-for-granted 5 senses, and you are perfectly able-bodied in that way.
posted by itsflyable at 10:24 AM on January 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by itsflyable at 10:24 AM on January 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
Next time, if someone wants you to buy them a drink and you don't want to, say something like "I'll happily toast you, but I'm watching my pennies so let's order separately" or "I'll get this round, you get next."
The whole thing began because you weren't direct - figure out what your boundaries are, and then put them into action.
If you're putting yourself into social settings that cost more than you can afford, to the point that you're sharing single drinks and you're asking your friends to use their sexuality as a currency to keep the bar bill low, maybe make adjustments to what destinations you choose, what kinds of drinks you order, and your entertainment budget.
posted by Miko at 10:29 AM on January 11, 2020 [25 favorites]
The whole thing began because you weren't direct - figure out what your boundaries are, and then put them into action.
If you're putting yourself into social settings that cost more than you can afford, to the point that you're sharing single drinks and you're asking your friends to use their sexuality as a currency to keep the bar bill low, maybe make adjustments to what destinations you choose, what kinds of drinks you order, and your entertainment budget.
posted by Miko at 10:29 AM on January 11, 2020 [25 favorites]
Response by poster: I'm processing all the answers, but thank you for your thoughts—they are very much appreciated and it's helpful seeing different perspectives.
To answer some upstream questions—we are both deaf. She tends to become distracted easily at bars, etc., so that in itself isn't new, but I might have had some expectations to the contrary this time (new year, haven't seen each other in a bit, etc). That was my bad. We do each other's birthdays in terms of drinks/food, but I brought wine at the gathering and thought that was sufficient, so wasn't expecting that request. When Dorothy's in a good mood, everything is wonderful and we have a lot of fun and hold a lot of good conversations, which is why I'm inclined to keep her as a friend, although I'm open to the possibilities of either space or our friendship fading away if compatibility is an issue.
I really like @elf27's apology script and am considering using that—a simple and sweet, to-the-point apology, and go from there. If she's still angry or whantot, I'll offer to give her some time to process/get space, or ask if she's willing to get together and then there, we can hash it out. I also agree with @rogerroger and @miko that I respond to conflicts/requests indirectly instead of directly (spot on observations), which is something I need to work on.
We both enjoyed the drink a lot! We just both felt it wasn't enough, it was diluted with a lot of ice, so that's why I made the suggestion... it may have subconsciously been a way to "even up" after the unexpected request and whatnot, which is something worth self-analysis and self-reflection. Definitely was never my intention to make her feel uncomfortable or have an unpleasant experience.
posted by dubious_dude at 10:41 AM on January 11, 2020 [7 favorites]
To answer some upstream questions—we are both deaf. She tends to become distracted easily at bars, etc., so that in itself isn't new, but I might have had some expectations to the contrary this time (new year, haven't seen each other in a bit, etc). That was my bad. We do each other's birthdays in terms of drinks/food, but I brought wine at the gathering and thought that was sufficient, so wasn't expecting that request. When Dorothy's in a good mood, everything is wonderful and we have a lot of fun and hold a lot of good conversations, which is why I'm inclined to keep her as a friend, although I'm open to the possibilities of either space or our friendship fading away if compatibility is an issue.
I really like @elf27's apology script and am considering using that—a simple and sweet, to-the-point apology, and go from there. If she's still angry or whantot, I'll offer to give her some time to process/get space, or ask if she's willing to get together and then there, we can hash it out. I also agree with @rogerroger and @miko that I respond to conflicts/requests indirectly instead of directly (spot on observations), which is something I need to work on.
We both enjoyed the drink a lot! We just both felt it wasn't enough, it was diluted with a lot of ice, so that's why I made the suggestion... it may have subconsciously been a way to "even up" after the unexpected request and whatnot, which is something worth self-analysis and self-reflection. Definitely was never my intention to make her feel uncomfortable or have an unpleasant experience.
posted by dubious_dude at 10:41 AM on January 11, 2020 [7 favorites]
For example, last night's situation could have easily been resolved if she had asked to talk to me privately, and told me that she did not feel comfortable (with a serious face) with cajoling the bartender to refill the drink for free. I would have apologized and stopped right there. I literally thought the "joke" wouldn't be a problem with her, as she had (to my best understanding) done it before.
I feel like if you are working out in your mind the way someone could have made this work for you, it's sort of glossing over the fact that something also didn't work for them.Dorothy sounds like a high-conflict individual (meaning that she will say, out loud, that she is bothered or upset by a thing and maybe doesn't get over that upsetness easily). You seem like someone who tends to ruminate over things and wants conflict to go away and are uncomfortable when people aren't happy with you.
My take on this is that Dorothy sort of cajoled you into buying her a drink that, even if you were planning on doing it, wasn't your idea to do in that way, at that time. You then made a request that she get a free refill which she said she didn't want to do and laughed off. Now, again from my perspective, if it had ended there, the two of you had done things that were maybe not your comfort zone but hey you're friends you move forward. But then you "half joking" made another suggestion and to me that's unfriendly. That implies you're actually NOT joking (for whatever reason) and because it also gets into gender stuff (hey, my female friend, why don't you flirt with the bartender to get another drink?) which might be a thing that is a thing for her? I don't know.
It seems like the two of you may have differing conflict resolution styles and you may have had some expectations (some one on one time, or some gratitude) that weren't met and then you got sort of privately sore about this instead of saying something. But then when she said something and doubled down on it, it made you feel attacked. So, not a huge deal either way but it might be worth looking more into this and trying to think of ways you could either be more forthright (and then not feel like you had to make half-jokes that were concealing some soreness) or actually let things go. Dorothy seems like she needs an apology. You feel like maybe you do too (or some gratitude for a drink) but it might be worth letting that part go to see if you can make it work but then, at a later time, thinking more about what it will take to interact with Dorothy and whether that's worth it.
posted by jessamyn at 10:45 AM on January 11, 2020 [14 favorites]
I feel like if you are working out in your mind the way someone could have made this work for you, it's sort of glossing over the fact that something also didn't work for them.Dorothy sounds like a high-conflict individual (meaning that she will say, out loud, that she is bothered or upset by a thing and maybe doesn't get over that upsetness easily). You seem like someone who tends to ruminate over things and wants conflict to go away and are uncomfortable when people aren't happy with you.
My take on this is that Dorothy sort of cajoled you into buying her a drink that, even if you were planning on doing it, wasn't your idea to do in that way, at that time. You then made a request that she get a free refill which she said she didn't want to do and laughed off. Now, again from my perspective, if it had ended there, the two of you had done things that were maybe not your comfort zone but hey you're friends you move forward. But then you "half joking" made another suggestion and to me that's unfriendly. That implies you're actually NOT joking (for whatever reason) and because it also gets into gender stuff (hey, my female friend, why don't you flirt with the bartender to get another drink?) which might be a thing that is a thing for her? I don't know.
It seems like the two of you may have differing conflict resolution styles and you may have had some expectations (some one on one time, or some gratitude) that weren't met and then you got sort of privately sore about this instead of saying something. But then when she said something and doubled down on it, it made you feel attacked. So, not a huge deal either way but it might be worth looking more into this and trying to think of ways you could either be more forthright (and then not feel like you had to make half-jokes that were concealing some soreness) or actually let things go. Dorothy seems like she needs an apology. You feel like maybe you do too (or some gratitude for a drink) but it might be worth letting that part go to see if you can make it work but then, at a later time, thinking more about what it will take to interact with Dorothy and whether that's worth it.
posted by jessamyn at 10:45 AM on January 11, 2020 [14 favorites]
I've just read the referenced previous post now, and learned a few things. As well, you've also clarified above that you are both deaf, so it changes my thoughts somewhat. It seems to me now that your friend Dorothy had a tendency to want to be right, dominate (?), and thus also alienate - but she will likely only alienate herself in the long run if she keeps lashing out at her friends after the moment has past in such an aggressive manner. I wish you the best in your continued friendship with her, if that is what you choose, but I also hope that you learn to set your boundaries with her and others like her, so that you don't continue to get trampled upon.
posted by itsflyable at 11:03 AM on January 11, 2020
posted by itsflyable at 11:03 AM on January 11, 2020
I think you were both rude. She shouldn't have flat out asked you to buy a drink, nor ignored you while drinking it, and you shouldn't ask women to trade their looks for free stuff (even if they sometimes choose to), especially repeatedly.
Now you want thanks, and she wants apology. You sound pretty similar, if a bit opposite, actually.
However. Her being rude to you was an interpersonal awkwardness between friends. Your gaffe at her had more resonance because it aligns with societal misogyny and imbalance... so I do think yours is more serious, and thus you do owe her an apology, because:
It is important not to even slightly imply that women do or should trade their sex appeal for stuff, and it's also important not to ask them to do that, especially more than once. It veers into "pressuring" her into "feminine wiles" territory which is a thing society really demands of women, accuses women of doing even when they aren't, then simultaneously rewards them and shames them for it whether they did or not. So just recognize that women are forced to dance in that creepy ballroom of people basically thinking they're manipulative minxes all the time, whether they want to play that game or not, and it's not fair. So, men, including gay men, should simply not make jokes or comments that poke that sore spot. I do think you owe her an apology for that part.
I would suggest some variant of, "Dorothy I've been thinking and you're right. My request that you should charm the bartender for a refill was unfair. I meant it as a joke but it wasn't a good joke, and I certainly shouldn't have repeated it! I'm sorry I did that, and I'm sorry I made you feel uncomfortable and hurt your feelings. I will work on being more sensitive. You're an important friend to me and I want to be a good friend to you. NO pressure to reply to this message, I just really wanted to let you know that after my initial defensiveness (which, also, I'm sorry I didn't receive your message well at first!), I did some soul searching, and I heard you."
posted by pseudostrabismus at 11:33 AM on January 11, 2020 [28 favorites]
Now you want thanks, and she wants apology. You sound pretty similar, if a bit opposite, actually.
However. Her being rude to you was an interpersonal awkwardness between friends. Your gaffe at her had more resonance because it aligns with societal misogyny and imbalance... so I do think yours is more serious, and thus you do owe her an apology, because:
It is important not to even slightly imply that women do or should trade their sex appeal for stuff, and it's also important not to ask them to do that, especially more than once. It veers into "pressuring" her into "feminine wiles" territory which is a thing society really demands of women, accuses women of doing even when they aren't, then simultaneously rewards them and shames them for it whether they did or not. So just recognize that women are forced to dance in that creepy ballroom of people basically thinking they're manipulative minxes all the time, whether they want to play that game or not, and it's not fair. So, men, including gay men, should simply not make jokes or comments that poke that sore spot. I do think you owe her an apology for that part.
I would suggest some variant of, "Dorothy I've been thinking and you're right. My request that you should charm the bartender for a refill was unfair. I meant it as a joke but it wasn't a good joke, and I certainly shouldn't have repeated it! I'm sorry I did that, and I'm sorry I made you feel uncomfortable and hurt your feelings. I will work on being more sensitive. You're an important friend to me and I want to be a good friend to you. NO pressure to reply to this message, I just really wanted to let you know that after my initial defensiveness (which, also, I'm sorry I didn't receive your message well at first!), I did some soul searching, and I heard you."
posted by pseudostrabismus at 11:33 AM on January 11, 2020 [28 favorites]
She, in the past, had joked with me about charming bartenders for free drinks. I thought she was open-minded enough to appreciate the joke, especially coming from a gay-identifying friend. I do vaguely remember her doing/saying the same thing herself, which is why I didn't think it would be a big deal.
I don't know why you think this is about whether or not she's "open-minded" and why you being gay-identifying is relevant.
Different people have different life experiences. A joke can hurt one person but not another. Sometimes judging by your own feelings and experiences leads to making mistakes and unintentionally offending someone - and when that happens, it's really not productive to ruminate about fairness. Picking over the situation and trying to decide what someone is justified in feeling uncomfortable about just leads to more misunderstanding and resentment.
So what I'm saying is, who cares if it's a double standard? All you really need to know is that she wasn't comfortable.
The problem isn't really that you made the joke - that's an honest mistake and it's understandable that you would think it was a safe joke given she'd made a similar joke to you before. The problem is that she let you know she didn't perceive it as a joke and that she was uncomfortable with it, and you persisted." Because you misread her laughing (which women often do to defuse socially awkward statements) as actually being amused.
And yeah, you say you were "half-joking", which is a weak defense here. So were you half-serious? She seems to think you genuinely were pressuring her to cajole the bartender, and you seem undecided about what you really meant.
To her, your explanation seems disingenuous and so she's not accepting it. Keep in mind that "it was only a joke" is the excuse a lot of men use when a sexist statement doesn't go over well. You're unfortunate in that your actual intent (assuming the best here) is a highly politicized excuse she is likely to have encountered before, in scenarios where it clearly wasn't true.
If this was me, I would send a genuine apology. I would say that I was sorry and did not mean to make her feel uncomfortable, that I didn't realize how uncomfortable she was at the time. I would say I do not expect her to cajole bartenders for free drinks and won't suggest it anymore, even as a joke. I would say I'd like to talk, but I also understand if she doesn't want to and won't press. And then I'd go on with my day.
Bringing in the drinks you bought her etc is just a red herring. Take care of this; don't try to tally up slights and decide who's the most wrong in the situation. You might consider those when you're thinking about the big picture of your friendship but this isn't the time.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 11:34 AM on January 11, 2020 [15 favorites]
I don't know why you think this is about whether or not she's "open-minded" and why you being gay-identifying is relevant.
Different people have different life experiences. A joke can hurt one person but not another. Sometimes judging by your own feelings and experiences leads to making mistakes and unintentionally offending someone - and when that happens, it's really not productive to ruminate about fairness. Picking over the situation and trying to decide what someone is justified in feeling uncomfortable about just leads to more misunderstanding and resentment.
So what I'm saying is, who cares if it's a double standard? All you really need to know is that she wasn't comfortable.
The problem isn't really that you made the joke - that's an honest mistake and it's understandable that you would think it was a safe joke given she'd made a similar joke to you before. The problem is that she let you know she didn't perceive it as a joke and that she was uncomfortable with it, and you persisted." Because you misread her laughing (which women often do to defuse socially awkward statements) as actually being amused.
And yeah, you say you were "half-joking", which is a weak defense here. So were you half-serious? She seems to think you genuinely were pressuring her to cajole the bartender, and you seem undecided about what you really meant.
To her, your explanation seems disingenuous and so she's not accepting it. Keep in mind that "it was only a joke" is the excuse a lot of men use when a sexist statement doesn't go over well. You're unfortunate in that your actual intent (assuming the best here) is a highly politicized excuse she is likely to have encountered before, in scenarios where it clearly wasn't true.
If this was me, I would send a genuine apology. I would say that I was sorry and did not mean to make her feel uncomfortable, that I didn't realize how uncomfortable she was at the time. I would say I do not expect her to cajole bartenders for free drinks and won't suggest it anymore, even as a joke. I would say I'd like to talk, but I also understand if she doesn't want to and won't press. And then I'd go on with my day.
Bringing in the drinks you bought her etc is just a red herring. Take care of this; don't try to tally up slights and decide who's the most wrong in the situation. You might consider those when you're thinking about the big picture of your friendship but this isn't the time.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 11:34 AM on January 11, 2020 [15 favorites]
She’s right, you weren’t joking. You actually did want her to use her sexuality to try and get a drink. And telling her you wanted to do that one time is maybe not a big deal, but bringing it up again and then maybe a third time after that? Dude. She isn’t the only woman who would be offended by that. I certainly would be. That’s not about not being “open-minded” and you being gay is irrelevant.
Also, you actually didn’t get her a birthday drink, you guys shared a drink and you treated for her half. It sounds like you weren’t that gracious about it, either. She was kind of presumptuous about asking for a birthday drink, but you making a big thing of letting her drink half of your drink (or whatever) is ridiculous.
Personally, I think you need to be more respectful of boundaries. You felt like she crossed yours when she asked for a drink but you didn’t say so (by telling her no), then you awkwardly shared one drink (and expected her to be grateful?), then you pressured her multiple times to quasi-prostitute herself for a drink. So much boundary crossing here, and frankly I think the worse offender is you. But that’s also a good thing, because you have control over your behavior and can change it.
posted by rue72 at 12:03 PM on January 11, 2020 [35 favorites]
Also, you actually didn’t get her a birthday drink, you guys shared a drink and you treated for her half. It sounds like you weren’t that gracious about it, either. She was kind of presumptuous about asking for a birthday drink, but you making a big thing of letting her drink half of your drink (or whatever) is ridiculous.
Personally, I think you need to be more respectful of boundaries. You felt like she crossed yours when she asked for a drink but you didn’t say so (by telling her no), then you awkwardly shared one drink (and expected her to be grateful?), then you pressured her multiple times to quasi-prostitute herself for a drink. So much boundary crossing here, and frankly I think the worse offender is you. But that’s also a good thing, because you have control over your behavior and can change it.
posted by rue72 at 12:03 PM on January 11, 2020 [35 favorites]
learn to set your boundaries with her and others like her, so that you don't continue to get trampled upon.
I came to say more or less this.
It seems to me that your friend is very "forward," even demanding, maybe entitled, and that she made you uncomfortable by asking you to buy her a drink, and then annoyed you by not saying a proper "thank you" and focussing on other people afterwards.
If I had been in your shoes, I would have been upset at being I backed into a corner, having the pleasure of offering effectively denied to me, and by her apparent entitlement. I might also have been offended by the idea that paying for her was some kind of social expectation that I was too rude to honour without nudging (although I don't think it is if you've already celebrated somebody's birthday).
And then--this where I again recognize my own behaviour--you prodded her to get a free refill from the bartender, even when she said, repeatedly, that she didn't want to do that.
Is it possible that there was a teeny bit of passive-aggression at play here? As in "well lady, you have no problem demanding a drink from me, why not put some of that entitlement to productive use?" Asking a woman to use her "charms" to get free stuff is not really funny and has some very nasty implications in our misogynistic society, and I would have been upset by that, too, especially if it was repeated.
She then stewed on it, rather than calling you on it in the moment, and confronted you in an angry way the next day.
Here, I again recognize my own behaviour in being too quick to accept an apology that seemed insincere or forced, denying my own hurt, and being unable to let go of the unfinished business.
When I look at this incident as you described it, I can see several turning points where setting a boundary and enforcing it might have made things go differently:
-when she asked you to buy her a drink, you could have said "Of course, I was planning to offer, but you never gave me the chance. You do know offering is part of the fun for the other person here, right?" (As with all boundaries, she might never "get it," but at least you've spoken up for yourself, and might not have had the urge to dig at her later on.)
-when she ignored you, you could have said "hey, I was hoping we'd have a chance to spend some time talking tonight."
-when you pushed her, she could have said "I find that idea embarrassing and I really don't want to do that, and it is bothering me that you are insisting." (Here, a more emotionally aware person might start to wonder if there was something behind that insistence, but that's probably not Dorothy.)
I think you do owe her a genuine apology for pushing her and should make it clearly and without reservations, provided you really do understand and own what you did wrong. But, if she seems to want to rehash things over and over again, you would be within your rights to draw another boundary and say "I realize I was out of line; I apologized and you accepted. I apologize without reservations again and promise not to repeat that behaviour. I'm glad you're now leaving it alone and so will I."
It seems to me that this incident illustrates a number of ongoing issues in your friendship with this person, and it might be worth giving some thought to the health of this friendship and how you manage those in the broader sense. But learning to enforce your own boundaries is a skill that can be developed, and one that will help you in all kinds of relationships.
posted by rpfields at 12:12 PM on January 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
I came to say more or less this.
It seems to me that your friend is very "forward," even demanding, maybe entitled, and that she made you uncomfortable by asking you to buy her a drink, and then annoyed you by not saying a proper "thank you" and focussing on other people afterwards.
If I had been in your shoes, I would have been upset at being I backed into a corner, having the pleasure of offering effectively denied to me, and by her apparent entitlement. I might also have been offended by the idea that paying for her was some kind of social expectation that I was too rude to honour without nudging (although I don't think it is if you've already celebrated somebody's birthday).
And then--this where I again recognize my own behaviour--you prodded her to get a free refill from the bartender, even when she said, repeatedly, that she didn't want to do that.
Is it possible that there was a teeny bit of passive-aggression at play here? As in "well lady, you have no problem demanding a drink from me, why not put some of that entitlement to productive use?" Asking a woman to use her "charms" to get free stuff is not really funny and has some very nasty implications in our misogynistic society, and I would have been upset by that, too, especially if it was repeated.
She then stewed on it, rather than calling you on it in the moment, and confronted you in an angry way the next day.
Here, I again recognize my own behaviour in being too quick to accept an apology that seemed insincere or forced, denying my own hurt, and being unable to let go of the unfinished business.
When I look at this incident as you described it, I can see several turning points where setting a boundary and enforcing it might have made things go differently:
-when she asked you to buy her a drink, you could have said "Of course, I was planning to offer, but you never gave me the chance. You do know offering is part of the fun for the other person here, right?" (As with all boundaries, she might never "get it," but at least you've spoken up for yourself, and might not have had the urge to dig at her later on.)
-when she ignored you, you could have said "hey, I was hoping we'd have a chance to spend some time talking tonight."
-when you pushed her, she could have said "I find that idea embarrassing and I really don't want to do that, and it is bothering me that you are insisting." (Here, a more emotionally aware person might start to wonder if there was something behind that insistence, but that's probably not Dorothy.)
I think you do owe her a genuine apology for pushing her and should make it clearly and without reservations, provided you really do understand and own what you did wrong. But, if she seems to want to rehash things over and over again, you would be within your rights to draw another boundary and say "I realize I was out of line; I apologized and you accepted. I apologize without reservations again and promise not to repeat that behaviour. I'm glad you're now leaving it alone and so will I."
It seems to me that this incident illustrates a number of ongoing issues in your friendship with this person, and it might be worth giving some thought to the health of this friendship and how you manage those in the broader sense. But learning to enforce your own boundaries is a skill that can be developed, and one that will help you in all kinds of relationships.
posted by rpfields at 12:12 PM on January 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I just sent her a text apologizing for the uncomfortable position she was placed in, and emphasizing it was not my intention to make her uncomfortable, and invited her to FaceTime me and talk about this more, or meet up for lunch/dinner sometime this week and talk it out. I also said I valued our friendship and that I recognize I could have done better last night. If she's open to talk more about this, I'll expand from there.
I hope that helps, and clears things up a bit. I really do. I will also use this situation as an opportunity to learn how to do better next time, and be more mindful.
Your answers has been thoroughly helpful, thank you so much.
posted by dubious_dude at 12:34 PM on January 11, 2020 [12 favorites]
I hope that helps, and clears things up a bit. I really do. I will also use this situation as an opportunity to learn how to do better next time, and be more mindful.
Your answers has been thoroughly helpful, thank you so much.
posted by dubious_dude at 12:34 PM on January 11, 2020 [12 favorites]
If I were you, I would come up with some thoughtful birthday gift to give her to serve as a kind of symbolic replacement for this night that was somewhat soured.
posted by value of information at 2:15 PM on January 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by value of information at 2:15 PM on January 11, 2020 [1 favorite]
I treated her to a shared drink
I mean... if you buy the first round (or drink to be split) and then twist her arm to acquire the second, it's only sorta a treat.
But you'd already had drinks with her for her birthday so I agree it was not necessary unless that was the expectation that was set.
posted by salvia at 4:10 PM on January 11, 2020
I mean... if you buy the first round (or drink to be split) and then twist her arm to acquire the second, it's only sorta a treat.
But you'd already had drinks with her for her birthday so I agree it was not necessary unless that was the expectation that was set.
posted by salvia at 4:10 PM on January 11, 2020
I want to remark on the resentment you carry against her. It's not subtext, it seems like the whole problem. I mean, don't get me wrong, she doesn't sound like an easy person to get along with.
But, like, she's so over-the-top honest about being difficult that I'm just left wondering why do you bother with her? You clearly dislike her deeply. You're obviously carrying a number of grudges against her. And unlike her, you are not direct or upfront with her about how you feel about her various antics.
So there you are, afraid of her temper, bending over backwards to never piss her off and quietly but constantly seething over how much you have to work at that. Why do you bother?
IMO it's nothing short of unkind to keep being someone's friend while secretly nursing this much resentment against them. Resentment like that leaks out of us in ways that we can't help and can't see. In this case, your resentment made you act like a complete jerk to her while ostensibly buying her a birthday drink: gritting your teeth about the request, complaining about not getting your money's worth, cajoling her to use her sex appeal to get you a free drink, etc.
It is high time you admit that you can't be a good friend to someone whose moodiness terrifies you. You are not her friend. That's okay! What's not okay is refusing to be honest with yourself about it and continuing to subject her to your silent grudge-holding.
posted by MiraK at 3:03 PM on January 12, 2020 [7 favorites]
But, like, she's so over-the-top honest about being difficult that I'm just left wondering why do you bother with her? You clearly dislike her deeply. You're obviously carrying a number of grudges against her. And unlike her, you are not direct or upfront with her about how you feel about her various antics.
So there you are, afraid of her temper, bending over backwards to never piss her off and quietly but constantly seething over how much you have to work at that. Why do you bother?
IMO it's nothing short of unkind to keep being someone's friend while secretly nursing this much resentment against them. Resentment like that leaks out of us in ways that we can't help and can't see. In this case, your resentment made you act like a complete jerk to her while ostensibly buying her a birthday drink: gritting your teeth about the request, complaining about not getting your money's worth, cajoling her to use her sex appeal to get you a free drink, etc.
It is high time you admit that you can't be a good friend to someone whose moodiness terrifies you. You are not her friend. That's okay! What's not okay is refusing to be honest with yourself about it and continuing to subject her to your silent grudge-holding.
posted by MiraK at 3:03 PM on January 12, 2020 [7 favorites]
I don't think she likes you. That might sound obvious but I don't. Some people just keep others around because it's convenient. I have also been a person who could only be honest via text or email because the person made it very difficult for me to be open and honest with them. I can imagine that if you're always pretending everything is a joke then it makes things difficult for her. It sounds as if she feels she's not being heard and this has been going on for some time. If you like her (I don't mean her looks, I mean as a person) I think you should have a direct conversation with her. It might be too late because she might just find you very irritating all the time so there's nothing you can do and you should minimize contact. I would not want to be around someone who finds me annoying. If you care enough, give it a shot. Be direct.
Are you definitely just friends (on your side of things)? Is there any way you thought you were passively complimenting her or telling her you thought she was attractive by letting her know she could persuade the bartender with her looks? That's not a compliment. Maybe if said once but I wonder how often you say things like this.
It may be that you're just awkward as awkward people tend to "latch" onto the same opinion/idea as a crutch because they don't know what else to say. I think in future if she says she is not into an idea then listen. It sounds as if it was not a joke to her and if she was laughing she was being polite.
I don't like that she asked you for a drink but I don't know how platonic this situation is or how she sees it. Is she trying to force you to be generous because you're not? Is she trying to mould you into her ideal friend or boyfriend? Does she just not give a shit any more? It just sounds like she is fed up and does not like your character at all but can't be assertive in person because your jolliness blocks it.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 6:52 PM on January 16, 2020
Are you definitely just friends (on your side of things)? Is there any way you thought you were passively complimenting her or telling her you thought she was attractive by letting her know she could persuade the bartender with her looks? That's not a compliment. Maybe if said once but I wonder how often you say things like this.
It may be that you're just awkward as awkward people tend to "latch" onto the same opinion/idea as a crutch because they don't know what else to say. I think in future if she says she is not into an idea then listen. It sounds as if it was not a joke to her and if she was laughing she was being polite.
I don't like that she asked you for a drink but I don't know how platonic this situation is or how she sees it. Is she trying to force you to be generous because you're not? Is she trying to mould you into her ideal friend or boyfriend? Does she just not give a shit any more? It just sounds like she is fed up and does not like your character at all but can't be assertive in person because your jolliness blocks it.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 6:52 PM on January 16, 2020
It sounds like you were “kidding on the square”; that is, acting like you were joking, but in reality actually wanting her to do something (an embarrassing/tacky something that she told you twice (!) that she wasn’t comfortable doing). Don’t do that.
Also, I think you don’t understand what the word “ironic” actually means.
posted by blueberry at 9:00 AM on January 17, 2020 [1 favorite]
Also, I think you don’t understand what the word “ironic” actually means.
posted by blueberry at 9:00 AM on January 17, 2020 [1 favorite]
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We have complete control over the amount of drama and bullshit in our lives. Only you can decide if you want to keep putting up with all this.
posted by Amy93 at 9:07 AM on January 11, 2020 [14 favorites]