Tell me about men who are not annoyed by your worrying.
December 8, 2018 11:26 AM Subscribe
Worrier-MeFites, give me hope. Have you known a man who was not annoyed by your worries? Who didn't irritably say "You worry too much," or "RELAX," or just straight up ignore your concerns? What did that look like? Can you give me some concrete examples? More about me inside.
About me: I would say that when it comes to anxiety or worrying, I'm probably a 6 on a scale of 1-10. I don't have generalized anxiety and I don't have irrational fears. I'm attuned to dangers, though, particularly as they concern things I care deeply about (for instance, my dog). Sometimes these concerns lead me to asking a man to do things a certain way, or reminding them about a certain danger, and this is apparently profoundly annoying. Additionally, the request to do things a certain way seems to be interpreted as a referendum on their competence.
I'm not ever going to change and in fact don't want to change. I don't think there's anything wrong with the way I am. All of my girlfriends have had the same experience and frustration. I would just like to have a better picture in my head of the way things can be, but this is the only dynamic I've ever seen. My female friends have never had this reaction and respond to my concerns by either cheerfully accommodating them or sharing their own thoughts on the subject, what their experience has been, why something is worthy of concern or not, etc. We have one mutual friend who probably is an 11 or 12 on a scale of 1-10 and we don't even treat her like this.
I'm looking for examples of how real men in your life have responded in a way that you find helpful or at least not infuriating. Or, if it's been your experience that this is the prevailing norm, go ahead and tell me. I'm just trying to get calibrated here.
About me: I would say that when it comes to anxiety or worrying, I'm probably a 6 on a scale of 1-10. I don't have generalized anxiety and I don't have irrational fears. I'm attuned to dangers, though, particularly as they concern things I care deeply about (for instance, my dog). Sometimes these concerns lead me to asking a man to do things a certain way, or reminding them about a certain danger, and this is apparently profoundly annoying. Additionally, the request to do things a certain way seems to be interpreted as a referendum on their competence.
I'm not ever going to change and in fact don't want to change. I don't think there's anything wrong with the way I am. All of my girlfriends have had the same experience and frustration. I would just like to have a better picture in my head of the way things can be, but this is the only dynamic I've ever seen. My female friends have never had this reaction and respond to my concerns by either cheerfully accommodating them or sharing their own thoughts on the subject, what their experience has been, why something is worthy of concern or not, etc. We have one mutual friend who probably is an 11 or 12 on a scale of 1-10 and we don't even treat her like this.
I'm looking for examples of how real men in your life have responded in a way that you find helpful or at least not infuriating. Or, if it's been your experience that this is the prevailing norm, go ahead and tell me. I'm just trying to get calibrated here.
My husband is very chill about my worrying, most of the time. He has good boundaries about emotions - he recognizes that my feelings are my feelings and doesn’t argue with me about the “right” way to feel.
One thing that helps is for me to specify whether I want him to sympathize by agreeing with me that problem is indeed worrisome, try to make me feel better by reassuring me that it’s not so bad, or try to fix the problem by offering suggestions.
One thing that he does that is pretty much always helpful is say, “do you want me to make you a cup of tea?” Since I am someone who has a lot of generalized anxiety that I experience in my body, physical sensations help.
posted by mai at 11:42 AM on December 8, 2018 [16 favorites]
One thing that helps is for me to specify whether I want him to sympathize by agreeing with me that problem is indeed worrisome, try to make me feel better by reassuring me that it’s not so bad, or try to fix the problem by offering suggestions.
One thing that he does that is pretty much always helpful is say, “do you want me to make you a cup of tea?” Since I am someone who has a lot of generalized anxiety that I experience in my body, physical sensations help.
posted by mai at 11:42 AM on December 8, 2018 [16 favorites]
I am a moderate worrier. In the early days this triggered his 'give solutions to fix things' response. Depending on the stage of worry, this might be helpful (at very low worry-levels) or catastrophically angering (at acute worry-levels). Bless him, he quickly asked me how I wanted him to reply (and I checked with a friend to see what worked when dealing with my worrying). Here is how we have adapted over the years:
1) We both bring up low-level worries as soon as we recognize them (feedback and suggestions can be given here constructively)
2) For acute worrying, hugs and reassurance are applied until worries diminish (because talking it through doesn't work here)
3) For moderate worries, questions to understand the worry are asked in an iterative manner. Sometimes we accede to the requested accommodation, sometimes we explore the validity/strength of the worry itself. The key thing is that this is NOT rushed through. We might process this over weeks.
We both do this for each other. At this stage, my big worries are about the kiddos (so not dissimilar to your situation).
And lastly, if we are in bed and I think of something that needs checking, he just gets up and does it. Because if I get up, I stay up. And no one sleeps well that night.
posted by Sauter Vaguely at 11:54 AM on December 8, 2018 [7 favorites]
1) We both bring up low-level worries as soon as we recognize them (feedback and suggestions can be given here constructively)
2) For acute worrying, hugs and reassurance are applied until worries diminish (because talking it through doesn't work here)
3) For moderate worries, questions to understand the worry are asked in an iterative manner. Sometimes we accede to the requested accommodation, sometimes we explore the validity/strength of the worry itself. The key thing is that this is NOT rushed through. We might process this over weeks.
We both do this for each other. At this stage, my big worries are about the kiddos (so not dissimilar to your situation).
And lastly, if we are in bed and I think of something that needs checking, he just gets up and does it. Because if I get up, I stay up. And no one sleeps well that night.
posted by Sauter Vaguely at 11:54 AM on December 8, 2018 [7 favorites]
My partner does not tell me to relax or that I worry too much. (I will note that we're coming up on our 19th anniversary and have worn down a lot of each other's rough edges over the years, so possibly he used to be more prone to doing that sort of thing. If so, I've forgotten about it, which is probably better for us both.) He mostly just asks if there's something he can do that would help me worry less about X or feel better about Y, and if there is I tell him and he does that thing. If there's not, I just say nah, I'm just venting about it, and he commiserates that [x] sucks, and we might grumble back and forth about it for a bit or kick around some ideas for how to approach it, and then maybe he'll distract me with a goofy joke or something, and we get on with our lives.
I have worked hard over the years to realize that the way I do things is not necessarily the best way, so I don't e.g. get up in his grill about not loading the dishwasher the way I do. (The way he loads the dishwasher is bonkers, but whatever, things get clean enough and I'm spared the work so it's fine.) The flip side of that is if I do say, "Hey, doing this X way is important to me, please do it this way," he does his best to listen and respect that, because he knows I'm not doing that unless it really is important. That goes both ways; if he asks me to do a thing a specific way I know there's a good reason. Either of us might ask why a thing needs to be done X way when we would usually do it Y way, but it's not a competence-challenge thing, it's curiosity and a chance to learn something new, and either of us might have a better answer for any given thing. The person who cares most usually is the one whose way wins out, but we try to both be open to what we don't know or might not have considered.
posted by Stacey at 11:56 AM on December 8, 2018 [7 favorites]
I have worked hard over the years to realize that the way I do things is not necessarily the best way, so I don't e.g. get up in his grill about not loading the dishwasher the way I do. (The way he loads the dishwasher is bonkers, but whatever, things get clean enough and I'm spared the work so it's fine.) The flip side of that is if I do say, "Hey, doing this X way is important to me, please do it this way," he does his best to listen and respect that, because he knows I'm not doing that unless it really is important. That goes both ways; if he asks me to do a thing a specific way I know there's a good reason. Either of us might ask why a thing needs to be done X way when we would usually do it Y way, but it's not a competence-challenge thing, it's curiosity and a chance to learn something new, and either of us might have a better answer for any given thing. The person who cares most usually is the one whose way wins out, but we try to both be open to what we don't know or might not have considered.
posted by Stacey at 11:56 AM on December 8, 2018 [7 favorites]
Have you known a man who was not annoyed by your worries? Who didn't irritably say "You worry too much," or "RELAX," or just straight up ignore your concerns?
No.
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 12:00 PM on December 8, 2018 [22 favorites]
No.
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 12:00 PM on December 8, 2018 [22 favorites]
I am extremely familiar with the dynamic you describe. And I am now with a man who does not take my anxiety personally. It is quite a revelation, and interestingly, I find myself less anxious in response. When a man gets annoyed by your anxiety, it's a specific kind of boundary issue: he's responding as if you're telling him that somehow it's his fault that the world isn't safe, or that your asking him to adjust a certain thing to feel safe is a direct criticism of him and not something that would just make you feel better, and at the least, he's responding as if your'e telling him that he's wrong in his overall judgment about How The World Is.
At least in my case, a man who responds with contempt or irritation to my fear is treating me as someone who has less authority about determining how the world is, which for many of us is a sadly familiar gender dynamic.
What I have found now in my current relationship: when there are stronger ego boundaries, and the man responds with empathy and respect, I feel more in control, more adult, somehow, more someone who of course is going to have a rational response. And when I see myself that way as part of our dynamic, I find my general anxiety about the world lessens.
posted by nantucket at 12:01 PM on December 8, 2018 [43 favorites]
At least in my case, a man who responds with contempt or irritation to my fear is treating me as someone who has less authority about determining how the world is, which for many of us is a sadly familiar gender dynamic.
What I have found now in my current relationship: when there are stronger ego boundaries, and the man responds with empathy and respect, I feel more in control, more adult, somehow, more someone who of course is going to have a rational response. And when I see myself that way as part of our dynamic, I find my general anxiety about the world lessens.
posted by nantucket at 12:01 PM on December 8, 2018 [43 favorites]
I guess it would depend on whether your worry was an irrational anxiety based one or a legitimate fear. The former might take a bit of learning what specifically the other person needs and is looking for in terms of emotional reassurance, but if anyone, regardless of gender, but particularly a man towards a woman or child, is responding negatively and with annoyance to genuine fear, I would definitely consider that to be red flag-type behavior.
While expressing worry towards women will usually generate emotional support as you've noted, I've generally had the opposite experience with men in terms of response to worry: it gives them an opportunity to DO something concrete about your worry, feel useful/needed or problem solve.
Ie. If you're overwhelmed, they can offer a task or to ease your burden. If you're stressed they can give you a hug or back rub. If you're scared they can kick in their protective instincts. If you've a dilema they can offer advice and suggestions. There is almost always something that they can DO and I've rarely met men who internally gauge a woman's fear or vulnerability to be an annoyance; I've personally found this is usually an area men, even moreso than women, are quite adept in handling appropriately and with care.
posted by OnefortheLast at 12:01 PM on December 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
While expressing worry towards women will usually generate emotional support as you've noted, I've generally had the opposite experience with men in terms of response to worry: it gives them an opportunity to DO something concrete about your worry, feel useful/needed or problem solve.
Ie. If you're overwhelmed, they can offer a task or to ease your burden. If you're stressed they can give you a hug or back rub. If you're scared they can kick in their protective instincts. If you've a dilema they can offer advice and suggestions. There is almost always something that they can DO and I've rarely met men who internally gauge a woman's fear or vulnerability to be an annoyance; I've personally found this is usually an area men, even moreso than women, are quite adept in handling appropriately and with care.
posted by OnefortheLast at 12:01 PM on December 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
Sorry, the men in your life have just not been very empathetic. I am similar to you if not more anxious, and my partner doesn't dismiss my worries, he tries to respond in a meaningful way, listens when I need to discuss something that worries me. If there's a practical solution (like getting up to make sure the doors are locked, or double-checking financial info or legal rules about a problem) he is happy to do it, especially if I can ask him to do a specific thing instead of him having to figure it out.
It's very helpful to say "I just need to vent" or "I need a distraction right now" or "can you help me figure out what to do here?" or "can we talk through the pros and cons and maybe you'll see something from a perspective I didn't?" as this will help the guy know what you are looking for from the conversation and give him a way to show he cares.
But if he just straight up doesn't care about meeting your need for emotional reassurance and would rather repeat "stop worrying" and "why are you so anxious" over and over, well, dump him and find someone who cares more. Your female friends are likely better at these conversations because they care more about you as a person, and don't just view interacting with you as a way to get sex/fun distraction. Also, your female friends care more about maintaining a good relationship with you than they care about being right, which is why "the request to do things a certain way seems to be interpreted as a referendum on their competence" doesn't happen with them! You can find someone who knows that it's better to be happy than right most of the time.
For example, my partner hates when I eat standing up in a rush because it makes him anxious due to childhood trauma (family having big fights on the night people ate standing up at the counter); so I just remind myself to sit down and eat now. There's no point in "being right" if it makes him anxious, there's no point me saying "that's a dumb thing to get anxious about it, stop it." I just sit down and eat because I want him to be happy and it is easy for me to do a little thing to encourage that. You can definitely find a guy who does things like this.
posted by zdravo at 12:07 PM on December 8, 2018 [11 favorites]
It's very helpful to say "I just need to vent" or "I need a distraction right now" or "can you help me figure out what to do here?" or "can we talk through the pros and cons and maybe you'll see something from a perspective I didn't?" as this will help the guy know what you are looking for from the conversation and give him a way to show he cares.
But if he just straight up doesn't care about meeting your need for emotional reassurance and would rather repeat "stop worrying" and "why are you so anxious" over and over, well, dump him and find someone who cares more. Your female friends are likely better at these conversations because they care more about you as a person, and don't just view interacting with you as a way to get sex/fun distraction. Also, your female friends care more about maintaining a good relationship with you than they care about being right, which is why "the request to do things a certain way seems to be interpreted as a referendum on their competence" doesn't happen with them! You can find someone who knows that it's better to be happy than right most of the time.
For example, my partner hates when I eat standing up in a rush because it makes him anxious due to childhood trauma (family having big fights on the night people ate standing up at the counter); so I just remind myself to sit down and eat now. There's no point in "being right" if it makes him anxious, there's no point me saying "that's a dumb thing to get anxious about it, stop it." I just sit down and eat because I want him to be happy and it is easy for me to do a little thing to encourage that. You can definitely find a guy who does things like this.
posted by zdravo at 12:07 PM on December 8, 2018 [11 favorites]
"Tell me about men who are not annoyed by your worrying" : I'll add, too, that the man in my life who is not annoyed by my worrying has already decided I'm a sane, smart, adult human. He's simply not going pathologize my anxious response to something. Interestingly, this means I can't do the female deflection: "I'm sorry, I know this is nuts but I have so much anxiety, I'm so neurotic, can you just stop going 90 miles an hour because I'm such a silly person with an anxiety disorder, sorry!" A man who has really good secure boundaries isn't going to let you cop out that way, he's going to respond to whatever it is that the problem is. Oh my gosh, it is really good to stop doing the "sorry, it's just that I'm such a mess" thing to myself.
posted by nantucket at 12:12 PM on December 8, 2018 [18 favorites]
posted by nantucket at 12:12 PM on December 8, 2018 [18 favorites]
I have an astigmatism that makes distances seem weird. One of my best friends is a tailgater when he drives. I explained how it looks when we are stopping in traffic (that the car in front seems dangerously close to my eyes) EXACTLY ONCE and forever more he drives in a relaxed normal fashion whenever I’m in the car. It was no big deal at all.
He meditates from time to time and has a pretty robust martial arts practice, he’s self-aware in plenty of ways. This is why he didn’t mind slowing down with me in the car. His definition of himself and sense of masculinity doesn’t come from driving like he’s a movie stunt driver.
posted by jbenben at 12:24 PM on December 8, 2018 [14 favorites]
He meditates from time to time and has a pretty robust martial arts practice, he’s self-aware in plenty of ways. This is why he didn’t mind slowing down with me in the car. His definition of himself and sense of masculinity doesn’t come from driving like he’s a movie stunt driver.
posted by jbenben at 12:24 PM on December 8, 2018 [14 favorites]
My father had terrible responses to articulated worries/concerns, irrespective of whether we prefaced them with, "I just want you to listen" type of explanations. He just fundamentally has poor listening skills when it comes to his family members.
I have intentionally found a partner who does listen, and listens well, and listens *generously.* Seconding the point that that generosity, in turn, makes me less anxious, because when I can hear myself talking in circles, or describing the imminent catastrophes and spirals, I can catch myself and begin drawing a line between, "should accept this" vs. "should actively work internally to shut this down." People like this exist, and are not in short supply, and do not have to be romantic partners in order to be in your life.
posted by vacuumsealed at 12:30 PM on December 8, 2018 [7 favorites]
I have intentionally found a partner who does listen, and listens well, and listens *generously.* Seconding the point that that generosity, in turn, makes me less anxious, because when I can hear myself talking in circles, or describing the imminent catastrophes and spirals, I can catch myself and begin drawing a line between, "should accept this" vs. "should actively work internally to shut this down." People like this exist, and are not in short supply, and do not have to be romantic partners in order to be in your life.
posted by vacuumsealed at 12:30 PM on December 8, 2018 [7 favorites]
Anxiety is hard on relationships. People often cope with it by exercising control where they can, but when you insist on control when there is another capable adult in the room, you are at best telling that person you don't trust them.
I'm not ever going to change and in fact don't want to change. I don't think there's anything wrong with the way I am.
A person who thinks they know all they need to know about a thing - how to care for a dog, or what level of danger thing X is and how to respond to it - is a person who is not able to learn/adapt/change, even listen to others who have their own intelligence and experiences. That makes sharing/intimacy/a partnership of equals impossible.
posted by headnsouth at 12:39 PM on December 8, 2018 [14 favorites]
I'm not ever going to change and in fact don't want to change. I don't think there's anything wrong with the way I am.
A person who thinks they know all they need to know about a thing - how to care for a dog, or what level of danger thing X is and how to respond to it - is a person who is not able to learn/adapt/change, even listen to others who have their own intelligence and experiences. That makes sharing/intimacy/a partnership of equals impossible.
posted by headnsouth at 12:39 PM on December 8, 2018 [14 favorites]
I think this is the prevailing norm. Most dudes are not attuned to the possibilities of danger the way women are because they just face less of it, and have for their entire lives. Same thing with doing things in a certain way because of reasons. "I'm just going to do things however I want because for my entire blessed life nothing has mattered and I just don't understand the concept of things mattering" is unfortunately the way most of the men I have met get to operate. I had one male friend who insisted on walking me home from the pub, which was very nice, but then also insisted on driving the entire way from Iowa to Chicago on a road trip in the middle of the night in the winter with all the windows down so he & our other friends could smoke the entire time, even though I was freezing and miserable. Nothing matters except me and my experience right now because that's all that has ever mattered.
posted by bleep at 12:46 PM on December 8, 2018 [20 favorites]
posted by bleep at 12:46 PM on December 8, 2018 [20 favorites]
My ex never once told me not to worry about something. I mean, I’m probably a 2 on your worrier scale, and he’s probably a 5, anyway.
posted by greermahoney at 12:56 PM on December 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by greermahoney at 12:56 PM on December 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
I will also add that what you are describing here could be looked at through the perspective of Gottman's work on bids in relationships. It could also even be further considered abusive "crazy-making" behavior, even if it's not deliberate on their part.
If a person consistently responds to bids for closeness, affirmation, assurance, etc. especially in a fear based situation, negatively with annoyance/rejection, it creates even more fear based distress in future interactions between them because it destroys any sense of security and trust between them instead of investing in and building it. The person making the bid will then build additional layers of worry and fear that the other person is not someone they can count on to meet their needs, which creates a destructive cycle in the relationship instead of one of intimacy and trust.
Bids aren't always positive requests because they come from a place of lacking and need, but if responded to positively, more often than not, help fulfill that lacking or need, which also can either lessen the bids or cause the other person to reframe them positively once they feel secure that the bids will be responded to, fulfilled or validated; the basics of all relationships peroid.
posted by OnefortheLast at 1:03 PM on December 8, 2018 [15 favorites]
If a person consistently responds to bids for closeness, affirmation, assurance, etc. especially in a fear based situation, negatively with annoyance/rejection, it creates even more fear based distress in future interactions between them because it destroys any sense of security and trust between them instead of investing in and building it. The person making the bid will then build additional layers of worry and fear that the other person is not someone they can count on to meet their needs, which creates a destructive cycle in the relationship instead of one of intimacy and trust.
Bids aren't always positive requests because they come from a place of lacking and need, but if responded to positively, more often than not, help fulfill that lacking or need, which also can either lessen the bids or cause the other person to reframe them positively once they feel secure that the bids will be responded to, fulfilled or validated; the basics of all relationships peroid.
posted by OnefortheLast at 1:03 PM on December 8, 2018 [15 favorites]
I'm not ever going to change and in fact don't want to change. I don't think there's anything wrong with the way I am. All of my girlfriends have had the same experience and frustration.
First of all, right on.
So, a good partner with good communication skills should be showing you empathy and respect, and acknowledging your feelings as opposed to dismissing them.
This is what it looks like when I express my worries to my partner:
Me: Today was awful. I'm stressed about work, I don't want to have to go in there and deal with X tomorrow. I don't see how it's going to end well and I can't stop worrying about it.
Partner: I'm so sorry you're hurting. That sounds frustrating and I know work has been extra stressful for you lately. If you want to talk about it, I'd love to sit with you and listen. If there's a different way that I can help (give you space, find a fun thing to distract us) please let me know. I'm here for you.
or
Me: I'm freaking out about all the stuff that has to get done before I can __________ . I don't know what to do. It's too much. It's overwhelming.
Partner: I respect how much you've been doing to make ________ happen. You're working really hard at it and I know it's not easy. I want to make sure I'm doing my part in this, too. Let's talk about how we can solve this together.
So, YMMV, and these are just examples. It also doesn't mean that you won't ever have disagreements. But this type of communication and openness works for my partner and me, and I've never felt afraid to open up to him about a worry or concern I have. In turn, we're really good about solving problems and overcoming obstacles together.
posted by nightrecordings at 1:08 PM on December 8, 2018 [11 favorites]
First of all, right on.
So, a good partner with good communication skills should be showing you empathy and respect, and acknowledging your feelings as opposed to dismissing them.
This is what it looks like when I express my worries to my partner:
Me: Today was awful. I'm stressed about work, I don't want to have to go in there and deal with X tomorrow. I don't see how it's going to end well and I can't stop worrying about it.
Partner: I'm so sorry you're hurting. That sounds frustrating and I know work has been extra stressful for you lately. If you want to talk about it, I'd love to sit with you and listen. If there's a different way that I can help (give you space, find a fun thing to distract us) please let me know. I'm here for you.
or
Me: I'm freaking out about all the stuff that has to get done before I can __________ . I don't know what to do. It's too much. It's overwhelming.
Partner: I respect how much you've been doing to make ________ happen. You're working really hard at it and I know it's not easy. I want to make sure I'm doing my part in this, too. Let's talk about how we can solve this together.
So, YMMV, and these are just examples. It also doesn't mean that you won't ever have disagreements. But this type of communication and openness works for my partner and me, and I've never felt afraid to open up to him about a worry or concern I have. In turn, we're really good about solving problems and overcoming obstacles together.
posted by nightrecordings at 1:08 PM on December 8, 2018 [11 favorites]
On the other end of the spectrum, husband completely validates my worries and that is even worse! Not reassuring at all!
posted by catspajammies at 1:47 PM on December 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by catspajammies at 1:47 PM on December 8, 2018 [6 favorites]
I guess it would depend on whether your worry was an irrational anxiety based one or a legitimate fear.
For me--a worrying type person who lives with hypervigilance and sometimes spikey anxiety that is suitably treated and managed most of the time-- this is the thing. My anxiety lies to me and tells me everyone around me is a dangerous idiot. It's hard to date someone like that. So part of the work I do is to try to cut through some of the mental noise and figure out what's really important to work on controlling ("Look man you need to put the dishes in the dish drainer this way otherwise they all fall down when I put dishes away") and what is just my monkey mind and can just sort of stay in my head.
And so then my partner, who has his own issues but usually anxiety is not one of them, can know that if I am telling him "Hey I need you to do this my way" that I'm not just doing that because it's easier to try to control him than try to control myself. I'm not sure if this is the answer you are looking for. My partner and I have been together ten years. He does not "catch" my anxiety and so is often able to just be the chill person in the room while I talk it out with him, talk it out with myself or tell him "Look I know this isn't really happening but I need to talk to you about my feelings about it"
This works about 80% of the time. Occasionally I have a worry that is directly linked to his life and actions (he has a son who wants to go for his driver's license and his son has a mental health issue that is serious enough that I feel he should not be driving a car, for example) and it can be tough going because I can feel like I CAN'T MOVE ON until he's agreed with me and he's like "I'm sorry. I know you care about this, but this may unfold without your preferences being the one that drive the train. I know it's frustrating." which... I think that's realistic even though it's not what I prefer. The point is, we muddle through it together. And the other point is, he doesn't find this annoying, it's just part of me.
posted by jessamyn at 1:49 PM on December 8, 2018 [20 favorites]
For me--a worrying type person who lives with hypervigilance and sometimes spikey anxiety that is suitably treated and managed most of the time-- this is the thing. My anxiety lies to me and tells me everyone around me is a dangerous idiot. It's hard to date someone like that. So part of the work I do is to try to cut through some of the mental noise and figure out what's really important to work on controlling ("Look man you need to put the dishes in the dish drainer this way otherwise they all fall down when I put dishes away") and what is just my monkey mind and can just sort of stay in my head.
And so then my partner, who has his own issues but usually anxiety is not one of them, can know that if I am telling him "Hey I need you to do this my way" that I'm not just doing that because it's easier to try to control him than try to control myself. I'm not sure if this is the answer you are looking for. My partner and I have been together ten years. He does not "catch" my anxiety and so is often able to just be the chill person in the room while I talk it out with him, talk it out with myself or tell him "Look I know this isn't really happening but I need to talk to you about my feelings about it"
This works about 80% of the time. Occasionally I have a worry that is directly linked to his life and actions (he has a son who wants to go for his driver's license and his son has a mental health issue that is serious enough that I feel he should not be driving a car, for example) and it can be tough going because I can feel like I CAN'T MOVE ON until he's agreed with me and he's like "I'm sorry. I know you care about this, but this may unfold without your preferences being the one that drive the train. I know it's frustrating." which... I think that's realistic even though it's not what I prefer. The point is, we muddle through it together. And the other point is, he doesn't find this annoying, it's just part of me.
posted by jessamyn at 1:49 PM on December 8, 2018 [20 favorites]
I am a grade A max level, turn the dial to 11 worrier and my husband is chill with that. He let's me buzz around worrying, never telling me there is nothing to worry about but also not feeding into my worries by getting worried himself. He takes my fear of having to have the closet door shut a certain way every night, seriously. He knows I'm scared of the dark and lets me go upstairs first, & will take the dogs downstairs to pee so I don't have to open the door at night to a dark scary world filled with monsters that exist only in my own deeply irrational fear filled mind. He is equally calm around my more rational fears too. They exist.
posted by wwax at 1:57 PM on December 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by wwax at 1:57 PM on December 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
My partner (F) is a worrier, particularly about medical issues. I (M) tend to be whatever the borderline-pathological opposite of a worrier about medical issues, i.e. I will actively assert that it's definitely nothing, and I don't need to go to the doctor, until it's spouting blood or the equivalent. So when a symptom presents, she will assume that it is the Worst Possible Thing such a symptom might entail, and immediately start gaming out serious medical interventions, while I'll assume it's Definitely Nothing and ignore it as long as possible.
Do I get annoyed by her worrying? Sure, sometimes. And I'd imagine she finds my nonchalance just as annoying sometimes. But I also recognize that, in the universe of occasions for worry, some of the time her response is the right one, and some of the time mine is the right one, and often it's somewhere in between. And so what I try to do is think of my wife's anxiety as something like a smoke alarm: occasionally, it wakes you up in the middle of the night because it needs a new battery, and occasionally it confuses my making pizza for a crisis, and I have to stop what I'm doing and push a button to get it to stop blaring. But at the end of the day, it's also good at telling you when your fucking house is on fire and you need to wake up and get out, and that more than makes up for the other stuff. I can tell you there have been enough times that she's been right to worry that I know to take her concerns seriously and be thankful that we have such opposite approaches. And I can also tell you she's expressed gratitude to me for my ability to convince her that it's reasonable to chill out on other occasions.
In practice, what this means is that when she tells me she's worried about something, I don't tell her to calm down or that her worry is wrong. Together we try to think about what data we have, and whether it fits her Doom Hypothesis or my It's Probably Nothing Hypothesis, and what other kinds of data we might be able to get, what it would cost to get them, and whether having that negative data would help to put her mind at ease (or alternatively, what kind/how much data I would need to recognize that the problem is real and serious). Sometimes that means we decide it's worth the money to go to a doctor, or get our house tested for mold, or whatever, and sometimes our collective frugality means that when she sees that we've got 5 good data points and Occam pointing to my hypothesis, she decides that's good enough.
posted by dr. boludo at 2:03 PM on December 8, 2018 [11 favorites]
Do I get annoyed by her worrying? Sure, sometimes. And I'd imagine she finds my nonchalance just as annoying sometimes. But I also recognize that, in the universe of occasions for worry, some of the time her response is the right one, and some of the time mine is the right one, and often it's somewhere in between. And so what I try to do is think of my wife's anxiety as something like a smoke alarm: occasionally, it wakes you up in the middle of the night because it needs a new battery, and occasionally it confuses my making pizza for a crisis, and I have to stop what I'm doing and push a button to get it to stop blaring. But at the end of the day, it's also good at telling you when your fucking house is on fire and you need to wake up and get out, and that more than makes up for the other stuff. I can tell you there have been enough times that she's been right to worry that I know to take her concerns seriously and be thankful that we have such opposite approaches. And I can also tell you she's expressed gratitude to me for my ability to convince her that it's reasonable to chill out on other occasions.
In practice, what this means is that when she tells me she's worried about something, I don't tell her to calm down or that her worry is wrong. Together we try to think about what data we have, and whether it fits her Doom Hypothesis or my It's Probably Nothing Hypothesis, and what other kinds of data we might be able to get, what it would cost to get them, and whether having that negative data would help to put her mind at ease (or alternatively, what kind/how much data I would need to recognize that the problem is real and serious). Sometimes that means we decide it's worth the money to go to a doctor, or get our house tested for mold, or whatever, and sometimes our collective frugality means that when she sees that we've got 5 good data points and Occam pointing to my hypothesis, she decides that's good enough.
posted by dr. boludo at 2:03 PM on December 8, 2018 [11 favorites]
Does your partner have his own worry/anxiety issues that he feels he must hide from you, either because they will trigger you, or for some other reason (e.g. "men don't worry," etc.)? If so, he might be less than empathetic with you because he resents the pressure to be the calm and rational one all the time, or fears he won't be a able to "hold it together" in the face of your worry.
None of this makes him a bad person, but if you know you need a specific kind of support from a partner, you might want to investigate some of those issues to see if he's going to be able to provide it. If you can find a person who is truly chill all the time, great, but otherwise talking things out and figuring out how you can promote an atmosphere of mutual support might go a long way.
posted by rpfields at 3:01 PM on December 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
None of this makes him a bad person, but if you know you need a specific kind of support from a partner, you might want to investigate some of those issues to see if he's going to be able to provide it. If you can find a person who is truly chill all the time, great, but otherwise talking things out and figuring out how you can promote an atmosphere of mutual support might go a long way.
posted by rpfields at 3:01 PM on December 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
My husband is extremely patient with my anxiety, and for me the appropriate reaction sometimes is just to let me get on with it, which he does, but he's also very patient about requests that he do something (or do something differently) even if he doesn't think it's necessary. And I've been right enough about potential dangers/bad outcomes that he takes me seriously when possible. Occasionally I just have a bad anxiety day and need extra gentle handling, which he will provide including treats from the store and foot rubs and dealing with tasks/chores that are especially giving me agita.
I honestly doubt he sprung out of the womb like this, it's very likely he's been dinged until he learned to do better, just by someone before I came along. It is fine - whenever safe and appropriate - to do some dinging yourself: "Don't tell me how to feel. If you're trying to make me feel better, pick another tack besides ordering me to feel how you want me to." Sometimes you are dealing with a man who is just lacking in awareness thanks to privilege and not an actual misogynist, and it can take some repeated exposure for them to figure out.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:32 PM on December 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
I honestly doubt he sprung out of the womb like this, it's very likely he's been dinged until he learned to do better, just by someone before I came along. It is fine - whenever safe and appropriate - to do some dinging yourself: "Don't tell me how to feel. If you're trying to make me feel better, pick another tack besides ordering me to feel how you want me to." Sometimes you are dealing with a man who is just lacking in awareness thanks to privilege and not an actual misogynist, and it can take some repeated exposure for them to figure out.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:32 PM on December 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
I want to nth what Nantucket wrote above: the man in my life who is not annoyed by my worrying has already decided I'm a sane, smart, adult human
This is how it feels for me.
I have some ptsd that is compartmentalized to driving. Some days, I can be an insufferable backseat driver, an anxiety attack in the passenger seat. He recognizes those days just from gestures if not from what I say (like WATCH OUT FOR THAT MAILBOX!), and drives like I'm Miss Daisy without any comment. We haven't explicitly discussed it, but I think it is because he is more invested in my mental health than he is in being Right. I know he will get up and check any noise I hear in the night, no questions asked.
In more normal worry situations, similar idea holds true, he trusts my judgement and is more interested in hearing my reasoning for worrying than in shushing me.
posted by Dashy at 5:17 PM on December 8, 2018 [8 favorites]
This is how it feels for me.
I have some ptsd that is compartmentalized to driving. Some days, I can be an insufferable backseat driver, an anxiety attack in the passenger seat. He recognizes those days just from gestures if not from what I say (like WATCH OUT FOR THAT MAILBOX!), and drives like I'm Miss Daisy without any comment. We haven't explicitly discussed it, but I think it is because he is more invested in my mental health than he is in being Right. I know he will get up and check any noise I hear in the night, no questions asked.
In more normal worry situations, similar idea holds true, he trusts my judgement and is more interested in hearing my reasoning for worrying than in shushing me.
posted by Dashy at 5:17 PM on December 8, 2018 [8 favorites]
My wife is more anxious than me about most things. I don't think I ever found a request based on concerns like you described to be annoying, exactly, but certainly I might have been more argumentative than I ought to have been. It took me time to empathize with how she felt and be kinder about it, but I think I do a better job now. I expect I will learn to do a better job in the future.
So, similar to what Lyn Never wrote above, I only mean to say that you might meet people who don't naturally have a helpful response to your concerns, but if they care about you it's something you might reasonably expect them to improve at.
posted by value of information at 5:25 PM on December 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
So, similar to what Lyn Never wrote above, I only mean to say that you might meet people who don't naturally have a helpful response to your concerns, but if they care about you it's something you might reasonably expect them to improve at.
posted by value of information at 5:25 PM on December 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
Have you known a man who was not annoyed by your worries? Who didn't irritably say "You worry too much," or "RELAX," or just straight up ignore your concerns?
yeah, all of them. if I knew a man who did any of those things he would stop knowing me.
is that a lot of men in absolute numbers? no. are they all great people or really close best friends? no. I'm not bragging about the selection of guys I know, these aren't like the world's greatest men and some are barely acquaintances I don't expect to be close to or know for long. but they are all, I don't know, minimally house-trained. and not by me. I have had bad fights and breakups but never over them not listening to me. much less over them thinking I wasn't worth being listened to.
I'm looking for examples of how real men in your life have responded in a way that you find helpful or at least not infuriating.
they talk to me like regular people. same as women do. most men I know are as anxious as me or much more so, so it's not like they can't relate, I'm sure that helps. the best they do is say I KNOW, right? we ARE all going to die! and the worst they do is respond with a parallel laundry list of their own worries, and then we both have twice as many things to worry about. this is unhelpful, but not unsympathetic, and I don't mind it.
men I consider friends who try to cheer me up or distract me -- which I like; I know not everyone does -- don't do it by patronizing me or telling me I'm stupid. they may do it by joking, but not by making me the joke.
Or, if it's been your experience that this is the prevailing norm, go ahead and tell me.
I don't know what is the norm. probably it is bad. but I don't accept into my life a random sample of normal men. men being people isn't the norm for me in the sense that it just happened, it isn't like I just pick up men like a lucky child picking apples haphazardly off the ground and hey what do you know, none of them are rotten. I don't have any special ability to attract only reasonable respectful men, but I am good at driving the other kind away. the other kind usually does not like me any more than I like him.
Sometimes these concerns lead me to asking a man to do things a certain way, or reminding them about a certain danger, and this is apparently profoundly annoying. Additionally, the request to do things a certain way seems to be interpreted as a referendum on their competence.
you didn't ask for advice. and I don't keep rules consciously in mind. but if there is one rule that I live by in heterosexual and heterosocial dealings, it is this: I don't ever train a man in how to speak respectfully to a woman and how to act as if he is a human being. not ever. not ever. this is the one thing about men and women that I don't just think, I know. if a man doesn't already know how to talk to me like a person before meeting me, he is not going to gain an experience level at my hands. this is one thing that is absolutely in my control.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:08 PM on December 8, 2018 [18 favorites]
yeah, all of them. if I knew a man who did any of those things he would stop knowing me.
is that a lot of men in absolute numbers? no. are they all great people or really close best friends? no. I'm not bragging about the selection of guys I know, these aren't like the world's greatest men and some are barely acquaintances I don't expect to be close to or know for long. but they are all, I don't know, minimally house-trained. and not by me. I have had bad fights and breakups but never over them not listening to me. much less over them thinking I wasn't worth being listened to.
I'm looking for examples of how real men in your life have responded in a way that you find helpful or at least not infuriating.
they talk to me like regular people. same as women do. most men I know are as anxious as me or much more so, so it's not like they can't relate, I'm sure that helps. the best they do is say I KNOW, right? we ARE all going to die! and the worst they do is respond with a parallel laundry list of their own worries, and then we both have twice as many things to worry about. this is unhelpful, but not unsympathetic, and I don't mind it.
men I consider friends who try to cheer me up or distract me -- which I like; I know not everyone does -- don't do it by patronizing me or telling me I'm stupid. they may do it by joking, but not by making me the joke.
Or, if it's been your experience that this is the prevailing norm, go ahead and tell me.
I don't know what is the norm. probably it is bad. but I don't accept into my life a random sample of normal men. men being people isn't the norm for me in the sense that it just happened, it isn't like I just pick up men like a lucky child picking apples haphazardly off the ground and hey what do you know, none of them are rotten. I don't have any special ability to attract only reasonable respectful men, but I am good at driving the other kind away. the other kind usually does not like me any more than I like him.
Sometimes these concerns lead me to asking a man to do things a certain way, or reminding them about a certain danger, and this is apparently profoundly annoying. Additionally, the request to do things a certain way seems to be interpreted as a referendum on their competence.
you didn't ask for advice. and I don't keep rules consciously in mind. but if there is one rule that I live by in heterosexual and heterosocial dealings, it is this: I don't ever train a man in how to speak respectfully to a woman and how to act as if he is a human being. not ever. not ever. this is the one thing about men and women that I don't just think, I know. if a man doesn't already know how to talk to me like a person before meeting me, he is not going to gain an experience level at my hands. this is one thing that is absolutely in my control.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:08 PM on December 8, 2018 [18 favorites]
Additionally, the request to do things a certain way seems to be interpreted as a referendum on their competence.
sometimes, it is! life is too short to try to figure out how to talk to men who can't have their competence questioned, doubted, mocked, or denied. incompetent men abound and not all of them are rigid pompous self-deluding chauvinists. many of them are a lot of fun. I am not a man but I am incompetent at many things and while I don't like for people to be mean about it, it isn't a secret. and so what?
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:23 PM on December 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
sometimes, it is! life is too short to try to figure out how to talk to men who can't have their competence questioned, doubted, mocked, or denied. incompetent men abound and not all of them are rigid pompous self-deluding chauvinists. many of them are a lot of fun. I am not a man but I am incompetent at many things and while I don't like for people to be mean about it, it isn't a secret. and so what?
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:23 PM on December 8, 2018 [4 favorites]
I'm a little saddened that so many of the replies here talk about "unreasonable fears" or "anxiety". I mean, I have anxiety too. I definitely have unreasonable fears. But there are real, reasonable things that can cause a person "anxiety". For example, it's all right for a woman to say "Hey I really need to you to lock the door when you leave because if the dog gets out he could be eaten by coyotes or hit by a car" or "Please don't run ahead and leave me alone on a street corner full of drunk men." Yet there are so many men who will say "GOD why can't you just be CHILL about this why do you have to WORRY."
When I am having an unreasonable fear, like "I'm having a panic attack and DID YOU KNOW WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE AND THE WORLD IS SPINNING SO FAST", my husband says he's sorry I'm not feeling well, asks what he can do to help, does it (things like bringing me tea or water or a pillow.)
Here's a reasonable fear: We had to use a chemical in the house. It was clearly labeled TOXIC TO CATS, in large letters on the sides. We have a cat. I was like "We need to use this, but how can we make sure the cat is safe?" An asshole man could have been like "GOD she'll be FINE" spray spray spray. My husband said, "All right, we'll block off this and this, how does that sound." I said, "Fine, and we'll keep an eye on her too so she doesn't go there." My husband also went on the internet, did more research about the chemical, and found that a little of the airborne chemical wouldn't hurt the cat if it came into contact--the company was more concerned about cats being directly sprayed with it as a flea killer, or cats licking dogs that had been sprayed. Not so much as a "SEE MY POINT" but as a "Hey I took your anxiety seriously." I was happy.
posted by Hypatia at 6:34 AM on December 9, 2018 [12 favorites]
When I am having an unreasonable fear, like "I'm having a panic attack and DID YOU KNOW WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE AND THE WORLD IS SPINNING SO FAST", my husband says he's sorry I'm not feeling well, asks what he can do to help, does it (things like bringing me tea or water or a pillow.)
Here's a reasonable fear: We had to use a chemical in the house. It was clearly labeled TOXIC TO CATS, in large letters on the sides. We have a cat. I was like "We need to use this, but how can we make sure the cat is safe?" An asshole man could have been like "GOD she'll be FINE" spray spray spray. My husband said, "All right, we'll block off this and this, how does that sound." I said, "Fine, and we'll keep an eye on her too so she doesn't go there." My husband also went on the internet, did more research about the chemical, and found that a little of the airborne chemical wouldn't hurt the cat if it came into contact--the company was more concerned about cats being directly sprayed with it as a flea killer, or cats licking dogs that had been sprayed. Not so much as a "SEE MY POINT" but as a "Hey I took your anxiety seriously." I was happy.
posted by Hypatia at 6:34 AM on December 9, 2018 [12 favorites]
I'd like to think I was that guy. I certainly have the anxious, worry-wort wife needed. I think the less anxious spouse has to have a range of coping mechanisms. Here are a few:
Change the language. "Stop worrying" can be replaced by "I'm sorry it makes you so anxious." I'll add the warning that this sounds like, and is, something you might be taught to say by a therapist or other adviser, and may be rebuked as patronizing. But be empathetic and recognize that the anxious person often doesn't want to be anxious and worrying.
Cater to the anxiety sometimes. Get to the airport 2 hrs early. Unplug the space heater. Get a better door lock. Whatever.
Acknowledge when the extra worry causes you to take steps that actually avert a problem. This does happen.
Bottom line is that it needs to be explicit between the pair that one person worries too much and perhaps the other is too sanguine, but you're in it together and you don't want tension between you to add to the external stress.
posted by SemiSalt at 6:46 AM on December 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
Change the language. "Stop worrying" can be replaced by "I'm sorry it makes you so anxious." I'll add the warning that this sounds like, and is, something you might be taught to say by a therapist or other adviser, and may be rebuked as patronizing. But be empathetic and recognize that the anxious person often doesn't want to be anxious and worrying.
Cater to the anxiety sometimes. Get to the airport 2 hrs early. Unplug the space heater. Get a better door lock. Whatever.
Acknowledge when the extra worry causes you to take steps that actually avert a problem. This does happen.
Bottom line is that it needs to be explicit between the pair that one person worries too much and perhaps the other is too sanguine, but you're in it together and you don't want tension between you to add to the external stress.
posted by SemiSalt at 6:46 AM on December 9, 2018 [2 favorites]
>Have you known a man who was not annoyed by your worries?
Yes.
>Who didn't irritably say "You worry too much," or "RELAX,"
yes. I think if I showed this to him he would say something along the lines of "I am aware that telling someone to relax is the opposite of helpful and is very annoying", and he would consider "you worry too much" to be an insult so he wouldn't say that either. I mean, who is to say you ARE worrying too much? It's a matter of different personalities and perspectives, there's no objective right standard here. Sometimes my worrying causes me (and those around me) unnecessary angst. Sometimes his chill attitude causes problems to blindside him. We balance each other out, because he helps ground me and I help dodge problems I am able to anticipate. We appreciate that about each other.
>or just straight up ignore your concerns?
he is not as concerned as me. I'd say usually if I tell him it bothers me he'll accommodate that but we definitely disagree about stuff. especially when it's something in "his" jurisdiction he may often choose to ignore me. I accept this because it's his life and he gets to make mistakes.
If it affects me I'm less tolerant. (I would certainly expect "my way or the highway" for requests made about care of an animal belonging to me...) For an animal shared by both of us, I'm not sure, it would depend on if I'm aware that my request is above and beyond the necessary level of caution and prudence in which case I'd be inclined to swallow it and let him deal the way he prefers... If I feel strongly that something is definitely unsafe I do not compromise, and I would expect to be allowed to win on that every time with minimal argument, because safety always comes first and he accepts this as reasonable. Hypatia's example of keeping the door locked is a good one, I would not tolerate someone who I couldn't trust with something like that. Also, I have some things which I can accept might be safer than they feel to me, but they terrify me and he respects that and does not do them.
posted by Cozybee at 11:52 AM on December 9, 2018
Yes.
>Who didn't irritably say "You worry too much," or "RELAX,"
yes. I think if I showed this to him he would say something along the lines of "I am aware that telling someone to relax is the opposite of helpful and is very annoying", and he would consider "you worry too much" to be an insult so he wouldn't say that either. I mean, who is to say you ARE worrying too much? It's a matter of different personalities and perspectives, there's no objective right standard here. Sometimes my worrying causes me (and those around me) unnecessary angst. Sometimes his chill attitude causes problems to blindside him. We balance each other out, because he helps ground me and I help dodge problems I am able to anticipate. We appreciate that about each other.
>or just straight up ignore your concerns?
he is not as concerned as me. I'd say usually if I tell him it bothers me he'll accommodate that but we definitely disagree about stuff. especially when it's something in "his" jurisdiction he may often choose to ignore me. I accept this because it's his life and he gets to make mistakes.
If it affects me I'm less tolerant. (I would certainly expect "my way or the highway" for requests made about care of an animal belonging to me...) For an animal shared by both of us, I'm not sure, it would depend on if I'm aware that my request is above and beyond the necessary level of caution and prudence in which case I'd be inclined to swallow it and let him deal the way he prefers... If I feel strongly that something is definitely unsafe I do not compromise, and I would expect to be allowed to win on that every time with minimal argument, because safety always comes first and he accepts this as reasonable. Hypatia's example of keeping the door locked is a good one, I would not tolerate someone who I couldn't trust with something like that. Also, I have some things which I can accept might be safer than they feel to me, but they terrify me and he respects that and does not do them.
posted by Cozybee at 11:52 AM on December 9, 2018
Who didn't irritably say "You worry too much," or "RELAX," or just straight up ignore your concerns?
This is a culturally inculcated behavior that many men treat as normal and natural, where women's normal experiences about the real world are treated as unreasonable inconveniences (related to the way that a woman making any request about anything is framed as "nagging"). It is a trope on terrible sitcoms. It appears in SNL parodies of bad marriages. It is a tedious joke used in bad sermons by suburban pastors who drive fancy SUVs. It is a trope of horror movies where men do not believe their wives who have bad feelings and then everyone gets eviscerated by demons.
Maybe you have disordered anxiety-- some people do!-- but this is absolutely a taught and learned behavior.
The interesting thing, in my experience is that the same men who scoff at these anxieties are often unaware of how much they benefit from them. They mock women for "overpreparing", but are relieved when that overpreparation works out to their benefit. They derisively refer to a woman's enormous purse, but then ask for an aspirin from it, or a mint, or ask to put their own purchases inside it. They reap the benefits of women worrying and assume that doing so proves them right (???) for choosing not to think about possible outcomes in advance.
My father was running some errand once, and I said “oh, just remember [weirdly specific thing to be careful about]” I had experienced myself, and he scoffed at me, and said “that would never happen”. I mean, I knew he was wrong. It had happened to me. But fine, he didn’t like my “worry” or my “failure to relax”? Whatever.
He ran the errand, and the weirdly specific thing happened, and it screwed everything up and was a huge inconvenience for him. When he told me about the mess that resulted, he said “Why didn’t you tell me about [the thing]?”
This confused me, because I had. “I did. I told you, and you told me that would never happen, so I dropped it.”
“Well, you should have insisted until I believed you!” he said, still annoyed.
Your worry is too much right up until your lack of worry is too little. There is no right amount of worry, for some people, because however much you display will always be the wrong amount.
Not all men are like this. But so, so, so many of them are. By choice, and regardless of evidence or experience.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:23 PM on December 10, 2018 [8 favorites]
This is a culturally inculcated behavior that many men treat as normal and natural, where women's normal experiences about the real world are treated as unreasonable inconveniences (related to the way that a woman making any request about anything is framed as "nagging"). It is a trope on terrible sitcoms. It appears in SNL parodies of bad marriages. It is a tedious joke used in bad sermons by suburban pastors who drive fancy SUVs. It is a trope of horror movies where men do not believe their wives who have bad feelings and then everyone gets eviscerated by demons.
Maybe you have disordered anxiety-- some people do!-- but this is absolutely a taught and learned behavior.
The interesting thing, in my experience is that the same men who scoff at these anxieties are often unaware of how much they benefit from them. They mock women for "overpreparing", but are relieved when that overpreparation works out to their benefit. They derisively refer to a woman's enormous purse, but then ask for an aspirin from it, or a mint, or ask to put their own purchases inside it. They reap the benefits of women worrying and assume that doing so proves them right (???) for choosing not to think about possible outcomes in advance.
My father was running some errand once, and I said “oh, just remember [weirdly specific thing to be careful about]” I had experienced myself, and he scoffed at me, and said “that would never happen”. I mean, I knew he was wrong. It had happened to me. But fine, he didn’t like my “worry” or my “failure to relax”? Whatever.
He ran the errand, and the weirdly specific thing happened, and it screwed everything up and was a huge inconvenience for him. When he told me about the mess that resulted, he said “Why didn’t you tell me about [the thing]?”
This confused me, because I had. “I did. I told you, and you told me that would never happen, so I dropped it.”
“Well, you should have insisted until I believed you!” he said, still annoyed.
Your worry is too much right up until your lack of worry is too little. There is no right amount of worry, for some people, because however much you display will always be the wrong amount.
Not all men are like this. But so, so, so many of them are. By choice, and regardless of evidence or experience.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 12:23 PM on December 10, 2018 [8 favorites]
I'm not ever going to change and in fact don't want to change. I don't think there's anything wrong with the way I am.
To give a slightly different perspective, I'm a dude with pretty bad anxiety. On a scale from 1 to 10, I'm probably somewhere between a 7 and 8 depending on circumstances. I know that my anxiety has driven people around me crazy, and in recent years I've made an effort to limit its effect on others.
Specifically, I have a form of OCD that compels me to ask for reassurances. The thing about reassurances, at least with my condition, is that they don't actually help. All they do is lead to more reassurances, because asking for reassurance reinforces the idea that I need to ask for reassurance. It's like scratching an itch when I have an insect bite -- it gives me momentary relief, but ultimately makes me more itchy and makes me scratch more.
I've seen the effect that my anxiety has on other people, and yes, it is pretty negative. When you're constantly asking someone for reassurance, it makes them feel like you don't trust them -- they think, "Why is he asking me this again? Does he think I was lying the first time he asked me?" Furthermore, when you're always asking people to do things a certain way, it also can come off as really controlling. In fact, I think a lot of people who come off as controlling are just acting on their anxiety, and aren't very aware of the effect they have on others.
I'm saying all of this as a person with anxiety here, so believe me, I really do sympathize with you. I used to act on my anxiety, repeatedly asking reassurances and coming off as controlling because I needed people to do things a certain way. I would use my anxiety as a justification : "I do this because I have OCD." It drove people away from me, and contributed to the demise of an important relationship in my life. Since then, I feel like I've done a lot of important work on myself, trying to limit how I let my anxiety affect my relationships with other people.
And yes, I do realize there's a gendered aspect to this, and that men often dismiss womens' concerns about a whole lot of things. I don't mean to diminish that. I guess what I'm saying is that both things can be true : that men dismiss womens' concerns for unfair reasons, AND that one may want to try and limit how their anxiety affects the people around them.
posted by Sloop John B at 3:43 AM on December 11, 2018 [4 favorites]
To give a slightly different perspective, I'm a dude with pretty bad anxiety. On a scale from 1 to 10, I'm probably somewhere between a 7 and 8 depending on circumstances. I know that my anxiety has driven people around me crazy, and in recent years I've made an effort to limit its effect on others.
Specifically, I have a form of OCD that compels me to ask for reassurances. The thing about reassurances, at least with my condition, is that they don't actually help. All they do is lead to more reassurances, because asking for reassurance reinforces the idea that I need to ask for reassurance. It's like scratching an itch when I have an insect bite -- it gives me momentary relief, but ultimately makes me more itchy and makes me scratch more.
I've seen the effect that my anxiety has on other people, and yes, it is pretty negative. When you're constantly asking someone for reassurance, it makes them feel like you don't trust them -- they think, "Why is he asking me this again? Does he think I was lying the first time he asked me?" Furthermore, when you're always asking people to do things a certain way, it also can come off as really controlling. In fact, I think a lot of people who come off as controlling are just acting on their anxiety, and aren't very aware of the effect they have on others.
I'm saying all of this as a person with anxiety here, so believe me, I really do sympathize with you. I used to act on my anxiety, repeatedly asking reassurances and coming off as controlling because I needed people to do things a certain way. I would use my anxiety as a justification : "I do this because I have OCD." It drove people away from me, and contributed to the demise of an important relationship in my life. Since then, I feel like I've done a lot of important work on myself, trying to limit how I let my anxiety affect my relationships with other people.
And yes, I do realize there's a gendered aspect to this, and that men often dismiss womens' concerns about a whole lot of things. I don't mean to diminish that. I guess what I'm saying is that both things can be true : that men dismiss womens' concerns for unfair reasons, AND that one may want to try and limit how their anxiety affects the people around them.
posted by Sloop John B at 3:43 AM on December 11, 2018 [4 favorites]
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posted by peacheater at 11:37 AM on December 8, 2018 [4 favorites]