Help me prove to my kid that they do better when rested.
March 28, 2017 3:36 AM Subscribe
My child denies being tired in the morning and at night, especially when they clearly are. I am looking for age appropriate (7) tests or activities which they could perform periodically to measure their tiredness in a way which might illustrate to them that their mood or cognitive function is better when they are well rested.
Ideally the activity would be appealing or fun. I would also hope that (whatever this test/activity is), any increased proficiency they may acquire at completing the task/activity would not allow them to compensate for/overcome the effects of tiredness. Self-reported levels of tiredness are likely to result in a "not tired" so questionnaires are likely not suitable.
Ideally the activity would be appealing or fun. I would also hope that (whatever this test/activity is), any increased proficiency they may acquire at completing the task/activity would not allow them to compensate for/overcome the effects of tiredness. Self-reported levels of tiredness are likely to result in a "not tired" so questionnaires are likely not suitable.
Best answer: Maybe measuring reaction times with a ruler?
posted by richb at 4:06 AM on March 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by richb at 4:06 AM on March 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: What will you do when the child completes the task and "proves" that they are not in fact tired, when you know they are?
Thanks for the reply. I did try to address this in the question: "I would also hope that (whatever this test/activity is), any increased proficiency they may acquire at completing the task/activity would not allow them to compensate for/overcome the effects of tiredness."
I am hoping for suggestions that objectively measure mood/tiredness/cognitive function. I don't know if such a thing exists.
Sometimes we play the yes/no game in the morning and mustering of extra effort on their part allows them to perform well.
I should add that I am looking for a "non-screen" solution if possible.
posted by therubettes at 4:27 AM on March 28, 2017
Thanks for the reply. I did try to address this in the question: "I would also hope that (whatever this test/activity is), any increased proficiency they may acquire at completing the task/activity would not allow them to compensate for/overcome the effects of tiredness."
I am hoping for suggestions that objectively measure mood/tiredness/cognitive function. I don't know if such a thing exists.
Sometimes we play the yes/no game in the morning and mustering of extra effort on their part allows them to perform well.
I should add that I am looking for a "non-screen" solution if possible.
posted by therubettes at 4:27 AM on March 28, 2017
It's bad form to question the question, I know, but this really seems to me to be a situation where one part needs to be the adult and it is not your 7yo. IMO, tests will add to the problem rather than solve it. You don't want your kid straining themselves to solve a problem when they need to relax and let go.
Actually, I was about to comment in one of the sleep-related asks that if we really want to do our kids a favor, it is to teach them to go to bed and sleep at age-appropriate hours.
One thing I have done with both my kids, and now with the kids I am a relief parent for, is to take time between lights off and sleep. It has been a huge eye-opener for all of them: when they feel they are lying awake for hours unable to sleep, my watch says it took from 5-10 minutes from I turned off the lights till they were fast asleep.
posted by mumimor at 4:29 AM on March 28, 2017 [14 favorites]
Actually, I was about to comment in one of the sleep-related asks that if we really want to do our kids a favor, it is to teach them to go to bed and sleep at age-appropriate hours.
One thing I have done with both my kids, and now with the kids I am a relief parent for, is to take time between lights off and sleep. It has been a huge eye-opener for all of them: when they feel they are lying awake for hours unable to sleep, my watch says it took from 5-10 minutes from I turned off the lights till they were fast asleep.
posted by mumimor at 4:29 AM on March 28, 2017 [14 favorites]
Response by poster: I know, but this really seems to me to be a situation where one part needs to be the adult and it is not your 7yo.
Thanks for the comment. Hoping I won't derail the question by responding too much. I think I may have come off a bit stern/scientific in the question and my other response. I can assure you that I am approaching this in a wholly fun/explorative way. In retrospect 'prove' was a poor choice of words.
posted by therubettes at 4:46 AM on March 28, 2017
Thanks for the comment. Hoping I won't derail the question by responding too much. I think I may have come off a bit stern/scientific in the question and my other response. I can assure you that I am approaching this in a wholly fun/explorative way. In retrospect 'prove' was a poor choice of words.
posted by therubettes at 4:46 AM on March 28, 2017
I am doubt you will be able to successfully convince a 7 year old that s/he is tired.
I would recommend that you, as the adult decide when your child needs to be in bed and quiet. At this time, you decide that it is time to be quietly in bed (you can decide what to do with the light). Give your 7 year old the freedom to decide is s/he would like to be quietly in bed sleeping or awake.
If you decide that you absolutely want an exercise to measure tiredness, this exercise could be measuring how long s/he can stay awake while quietly in bed with the lights off.
posted by jazh at 5:33 AM on March 28, 2017 [8 favorites]
I would recommend that you, as the adult decide when your child needs to be in bed and quiet. At this time, you decide that it is time to be quietly in bed (you can decide what to do with the light). Give your 7 year old the freedom to decide is s/he would like to be quietly in bed sleeping or awake.
If you decide that you absolutely want an exercise to measure tiredness, this exercise could be measuring how long s/he can stay awake while quietly in bed with the lights off.
posted by jazh at 5:33 AM on March 28, 2017 [8 favorites]
Best answer: Here's a good summary of the sorts of things you are looking for. Reaction times seem to be the best measure, from a quick skim.
I am sympathetic to your question because I see this same problem in myself. On the other hand, I'm not sure that objectively proving to myself I'm tired would have the desired effect. I *know* deep down that I am probably tired, but because I don't feel it, and/or the consequences of being tired the next day are a long way away and this fun thing I want to do now is right here, the motivation to change my behaviour is pretty poor.
posted by lollusc at 5:36 AM on March 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
I am sympathetic to your question because I see this same problem in myself. On the other hand, I'm not sure that objectively proving to myself I'm tired would have the desired effect. I *know* deep down that I am probably tired, but because I don't feel it, and/or the consequences of being tired the next day are a long way away and this fun thing I want to do now is right here, the motivation to change my behaviour is pretty poor.
posted by lollusc at 5:36 AM on March 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
As a parent to an almost 7 and an 8 year old, I think that you are setting yourself up to have to prove your point in every argument which will just lead to both of you being stressed. I can see why it's tempting to prove yourself right, but you're setting a precedent. If you really feel you must, then the suggestion above to see how long child can stay awake while in bed with the lights out is a good one.
posted by PorcineWithMe at 5:45 AM on March 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by PorcineWithMe at 5:45 AM on March 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
What about doing this as a long-term data collection kind of thing? Like, here's a test we'll do when Parent thinks Kid is tired, when Kid thinks Kid is tired, and when both Parent and Kid agree that Kid is not tired. Record the data on a chart or spreadsheet and make a graph and look at the data after a month or two. Maybe both of you have to do the task and either of you can call for a test any time ( so task will need to be very short). Kid still has to go to bed regardless of how Kid does on the test, obviously - it's just one data point.
posted by mskyle at 6:09 AM on March 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by mskyle at 6:09 AM on March 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
My kids had a friend around 6 or 7 who wanted to stay up all night one night when he came to spend the night with us. I told him ok but he had to take a nap first. The next morning he asked me why I hadn't gotten him up from his nap so he could stay up all night. I explained that he must have needed the sleep and that, anyway, I had fallen asleep not long after the kids so I wouldn't have been up to get him up. My answer seemed to satisfy him.
posted by mareli at 6:16 AM on March 28, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by mareli at 6:16 AM on March 28, 2017 [12 favorites]
I came to suggest something similar to mskyle. I think it might be a mistake to link sleep to performance alone because as parents I think it's important to help our children learn that their needs (sleep, food, shelter, love) are something important regardless of whether they are achieving by society's standards. It might lead to nights of Red Bull or worse being ok as long as grades are good, if you see what I mean.
At the same time, learning to recognize feelings of tiredness can be hard -- I personally still get "wired tired" and also crave sweets when I'm overtired which combine to a jittery feeling. So I would suggest doing experiments about tiredness together -- and as a part of your experiment design maybe set bedtime as a constant, so your child and you could record how long after lights out it takes to go to sleep, what time wake up comes, feelings throughout the day, tiredness, hunger, tension, crankiness, etc. And of course the benefit is that bedtime gets set regardless. :)
I also wanted to note that for my kids, consistent mealtimes are a part of the sleep cycle; if they have dinner or dessert late it messes up their own senses of tiredness. Those can impact on performance too, so that's another reason not to take a testing approach - you might pollute the test results and end up not giving the message you intend to.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:26 AM on March 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
At the same time, learning to recognize feelings of tiredness can be hard -- I personally still get "wired tired" and also crave sweets when I'm overtired which combine to a jittery feeling. So I would suggest doing experiments about tiredness together -- and as a part of your experiment design maybe set bedtime as a constant, so your child and you could record how long after lights out it takes to go to sleep, what time wake up comes, feelings throughout the day, tiredness, hunger, tension, crankiness, etc. And of course the benefit is that bedtime gets set regardless. :)
I also wanted to note that for my kids, consistent mealtimes are a part of the sleep cycle; if they have dinner or dessert late it messes up their own senses of tiredness. Those can impact on performance too, so that's another reason not to take a testing approach - you might pollute the test results and end up not giving the message you intend to.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:26 AM on March 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
A good test is if they wake up, unaided in the AM.
posted by beccaj at 6:29 AM on March 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by beccaj at 6:29 AM on March 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
Mod note: Quick note: I think at this point, there have been quite a few suggestions that the poster might deal with the situation differently, and they are free to consider that advice, but going forward, let's concentrate on the actual question about age appropriate tests or activities, with a bit less emphasis on the "prove" language, as clarified in update by OP. Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 6:36 AM on March 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by taz (staff) at 6:36 AM on March 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: What about doing this as a long-term data collection kind of thing? Like, here's a test we'll do when Parent thinks Kid is tired, when Kid thinks Kid is tired, and when both Parent and Kid agree that Kid is not tired. Record the data on a chart or spreadsheet and make a graph and look at the data after a month or two. Maybe both of you have to do the task and either of you can call for a test any time ( so task will need to be very short). Kid still has to go to bed regardless of how Kid does on the test, obviously - it's just one data point.
That's a good suggestion, but I am looking for something to do from time to time only, non-onerous and fun.
So I would suggest doing experiments about tiredness together -- and as a part of your experiment design maybe set bedtime as a constant, so your child and you could record how long after lights out it takes to go to sleep, what time wake up comes, feelings throughout the day, tiredness, hunger, tension, crankiness, etc. And of course the benefit is that bedtime gets set regardless. :)
I like the idea of my also participating in the experiments and take your point about keeping other factors constant.
posted by therubettes at 7:01 AM on March 28, 2017
That's a good suggestion, but I am looking for something to do from time to time only, non-onerous and fun.
So I would suggest doing experiments about tiredness together -- and as a part of your experiment design maybe set bedtime as a constant, so your child and you could record how long after lights out it takes to go to sleep, what time wake up comes, feelings throughout the day, tiredness, hunger, tension, crankiness, etc. And of course the benefit is that bedtime gets set regardless. :)
I like the idea of my also participating in the experiments and take your point about keeping other factors constant.
posted by therubettes at 7:01 AM on March 28, 2017
In the spirit of answering the question, a lot of articles on memory/sleep tend to use things like # of things remembered from a sequence of random words.
For a child of seven, it might be see how many of these 10 new vocabulary words/sight words you can remember the next day.
You could also try and see if you can help them discern between mentally and physically tired vs debating whether they are tired. (In what way are you more tired today?)
E.g., ask them to jump rope or something, and ask them to count by twos, etc and see which one is more tiring that day?
posted by typecloud at 7:23 AM on March 28, 2017
For a child of seven, it might be see how many of these 10 new vocabulary words/sight words you can remember the next day.
You could also try and see if you can help them discern between mentally and physically tired vs debating whether they are tired. (In what way are you more tired today?)
E.g., ask them to jump rope or something, and ask them to count by twos, etc and see which one is more tiring that day?
posted by typecloud at 7:23 AM on March 28, 2017
Would integrating some objective measure of sleep, like from an inexpensive wearable sleep tracker (e.g.), make it more fun? (It would for me as a youngun.) This one claims to be able to distinguish between sleep phases, which is another interesting variable.
posted by supercres at 7:27 AM on March 28, 2017
posted by supercres at 7:27 AM on March 28, 2017
My mom likes to do something similar. Every day, she does sudokus in bed drinking coffee, and uses them to sort of gauge how clear her thinking is. Some days she struggles through medium puzzles, and other days she can complete a few hard or evil puzzles with no problem. She uses an app, so she can also see how long it takes her to complete one. While the puzzle itself just relies on logic, you also need to keep track of which rows, columns, boxes you've tried, and which ones you can now complete once you've added a number, so it might work as a test for memory.
On the other hand, you just might prove that your child is very good at completing logic puzzles while sleep deprived.
posted by autolykos at 8:25 AM on March 28, 2017
On the other hand, you just might prove that your child is very good at completing logic puzzles while sleep deprived.
posted by autolykos at 8:25 AM on March 28, 2017
This may be hard, and it's not exactly what you're asking, but is there some quiet task you can have the kid do to that would make them start falling asleep? I.e. reading a book, watching some kind of relaxing video, listening to something, that kind of thing. I wouldn't straight up say SEE IF YOU'RE FALLING ASLEEP YOU ARE TIRED LIKE I SAID. I would just have it be a mandatory quiet time. Chances are if it makes the kid super sleepy they'll end up wanting to be carried to their bed anyway.
When I was around that age I used to lie at the end of my parents bed with my favorite blanket and watch TV right before bed. I always ended up needing to be carried into my room because I always fell asleep. TV, however, may wake the kid up more, so YMMV.
posted by Amy93 at 8:41 AM on March 28, 2017
When I was around that age I used to lie at the end of my parents bed with my favorite blanket and watch TV right before bed. I always ended up needing to be carried into my room because I always fell asleep. TV, however, may wake the kid up more, so YMMV.
posted by Amy93 at 8:41 AM on March 28, 2017
To echo what typecloud said in their response, I was your children when I was in middle school. I would read under the covers with a flashlight, staying up until 2 or 3 in the morning. I was a bit older, but I finally broke the habit myself when I noticed in a class during the day that I wasn't retaining *anything,* my short-term memory was completely shot. It took me a while to cotton on to that myself, but once I did, it was a big enough deal to me that I started going to sleep at more appropriate times.
I still have some anxiety at the end of the day before going to sleep, and I find that listening to audiobooks helps me calm down enough to go to sleep pretty quickly - I've been doing that for many years now. Pretty simple substitution, but not sure how appropriate that is for someone so young.
posted by lousywiththespirit at 1:42 PM on March 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
I still have some anxiety at the end of the day before going to sleep, and I find that listening to audiobooks helps me calm down enough to go to sleep pretty quickly - I've been doing that for many years now. Pretty simple substitution, but not sure how appropriate that is for someone so young.
posted by lousywiththespirit at 1:42 PM on March 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
I find meditation, or drawing, really good in that they aren't competitive, they add to soothingness, but if you're tired you just...fall asleep doing those things. It helps that my similarly aged kid has a handle on her drawing ability so she can see when she is tired that she gets messier/less detailed, and it feels harder.
Or yoga! I cannot balance when I am tired, although sometimes that backfires because falling over is hilarious.
posted by geek anachronism at 5:45 PM on March 28, 2017
Or yoga! I cannot balance when I am tired, although sometimes that backfires because falling over is hilarious.
posted by geek anachronism at 5:45 PM on March 28, 2017
We play a game in the morning where we time getting dressed (that gets everyone dressed really fast). You could make a chart with minutes of sleep before getting dressed and time it takes to get dressed on each axis?
posted by mutt.cyberspace at 8:28 PM on March 28, 2017
posted by mutt.cyberspace at 8:28 PM on March 28, 2017
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You would then either need to let them stay up when they should be sleeping, or you would need to move the goalposts and reject the test outcome, which sounds like a bad example to set.
posted by richb at 4:04 AM on March 28, 2017 [19 favorites]