I need to break up with a friend. How? What to say (or not say)?
August 23, 2016 4:47 AM Subscribe
I'm reluctantly coming to the realization that I feel uncomfortable with a longterm friendship. Due to how frequently we spend time together, I don't feel slow-fading is an option (although I'm happy to be proven wrong). How do I approach this? Should I state my reasons for wanting to end the friendship? Is it even reasonable or kind to do so?
We've been friends for approximately 3 years, somewhat long-distance (close online friendship, with about-yearly meetups) until we both moved to the same area half a year ago. I was initially thrilled to be in the same place with her. We see each other about once a week now and talk even more frequently than before. But my comfort with the friendship has deteriorated rapidly, and I'm only now finding a concrete way to articulate why that is.
We had a kind of Talk a few months ago where I expressed my frustrations with her behavior (basically what I'll articulate below, but less concisely and clearly, since I was still trying to understand what was stressing me out) and she was extremely anxious and upset that it sounded like I wanted to end our friendship. I've been reassuring her since that I do truly value our friendship, but now I feel like I'm kind of lying by going back and saying "Actually, I can't do this anymore! I changed my mind!"
Is it feasible to just…hang out less? We live incredibly close to each other so it's not easy to drop off the face of the earth. Can I tell her my reasons for wanting to end our friendship, and approach it head-on, kind of like a romantic breakup? Part of me wants to dump everything that frustrates me and just be really transparent, and part of me feels like it's not cool to do that because it'll be like attacking her again and again with what I perceive to be her flaws. Is it judgmental of me to say "I want to end our friendship because I think you're really mean to other people?"
I honestly doubt she'll take a "it's not me, it's you, I'd like to hang out less" kind of talk well, especially since we had a long heart-to-heart recently about repairing our friendship and being more open with each other, and now I'm realizing…I don't think I can do that.
Anyways. Here are the things that make me want to end this friendship…unsure how much I can say to her:
We've been friends for approximately 3 years, somewhat long-distance (close online friendship, with about-yearly meetups) until we both moved to the same area half a year ago. I was initially thrilled to be in the same place with her. We see each other about once a week now and talk even more frequently than before. But my comfort with the friendship has deteriorated rapidly, and I'm only now finding a concrete way to articulate why that is.
We had a kind of Talk a few months ago where I expressed my frustrations with her behavior (basically what I'll articulate below, but less concisely and clearly, since I was still trying to understand what was stressing me out) and she was extremely anxious and upset that it sounded like I wanted to end our friendship. I've been reassuring her since that I do truly value our friendship, but now I feel like I'm kind of lying by going back and saying "Actually, I can't do this anymore! I changed my mind!"
Is it feasible to just…hang out less? We live incredibly close to each other so it's not easy to drop off the face of the earth. Can I tell her my reasons for wanting to end our friendship, and approach it head-on, kind of like a romantic breakup? Part of me wants to dump everything that frustrates me and just be really transparent, and part of me feels like it's not cool to do that because it'll be like attacking her again and again with what I perceive to be her flaws. Is it judgmental of me to say "I want to end our friendship because I think you're really mean to other people?"
I honestly doubt she'll take a "it's not me, it's you, I'd like to hang out less" kind of talk well, especially since we had a long heart-to-heart recently about repairing our friendship and being more open with each other, and now I'm realizing…I don't think I can do that.
Anyways. Here are the things that make me want to end this friendship…unsure how much I can say to her:
- I realized that my friend holds grudges—for a really long time. She's brought up, about once a month, a grievance with a mutual acquaintance that happened at least a year, maybe even two years ago.
- She's very prone to judging whether or not someone is worthy of love. It's at best immaturity/jealousy (she's never been in a relationship, we've talked about a lot of her anxieties about that and about finding one) and at worst incredibly petty. If she doesn't like someone, she'll say "I can see why his girlfriend hates him" or "his girlfriend's too good for him" even if most of the stories we hear from the couple point to them being very fondly supportive of each other, with occasional disagreements.
- She buckets people into good or bad very stringently. If she likes someone, she'll constantly reinforce how she appreciates the person, even if they've exhibited cluelessness about race/gender issues (things she would ordinarily be upset about in another person). If she dislikes someone, they don't deserve love, she'll frequently reinforce the dislike, she will notice every classist/sexist/racist thing they say and constantly talk about it. Very little in-between.
- It's probably obvious, but I don't always agree with her assessment of people and it's very uncomfortable to hear her constantly speak badly of someone in a situation that I read differently, or if it's someone I personally like. I feel often that she expects me to agree with her and fiercely love the same people she does, and fiercely dislike the same people she likes.
- I'm just exhausted. I feel I constantly have to watch out for our conversations suddenly turning into a tirade against someone she dislikes. I don't want to just nod and go along with something she says that I consider really objectionably mean, but it is exhausting to have to constantly worry about that and figure out a good way to push back on what she's saying. And, at the very least, the negativity is really draining, especially since most of our friendship prior to the past half-year was based more on enthusing about shared interests, not complaining constantly.
- We talked very recently about how I feel she doesn't respect my boundaries—if I said "I don't want to talk about x" she would half-heartedly acknowledge that and then talk about x anyway. She was truly and sincerely apologetic, promised to do better, and I really appreciated that.
- There are a number of things she's said that I've later called her out on, by saying "that was a mean thing to say, that was unacceptable", and lately she's been much less defensive and more responsive when I do those things. Part of me thinks that I should be more patient and allow her to change and adapt. Part of me feels like she exhibits a level of meanness in her comments that I wouldn't have accepted in any other friend for this long.
- We have a trip planned together in two months. I can reroute and do other things, but it'll honestly be incredibly awkward, although I know that shouldn't limit me in any way.
- Due to some interpersonal conflicts in our friend group, I think she'll take any "breakup" as a sign that I'm siding with another friend—let's say named Joanna—who she's historically had huge blowup fights with. I don't know if I should even care what she thinks on this front, but a part of me is bothered that she'll likely take it this way. I often feel she'll create these narratives of "these people are all against me, these people hate me because of x y z" and ignore other interpretations or her complicity in making people upset and hurt.
- I'm conflicted on how much I should worry about this…it feels a bit paternalistic and condescending to…but she doesn't have many friends in the area besides me. For better or worse she's chosen to distance herself from other friends in the area, and while she does have other very close friends, they are mostly online friends who live fairly far away.
- I'm also just really worried about her (again, this could be in a really condescending way). I don't think she's had a ton of really healthy friendships in her life, her parents put a lot of pressure on her to lead a life of traditional success—which she's kind of "failed" and I think really beats herself up about it. She's pretty socially isolated, like I said, doesn't have huge long-term goals, and missed out on a lot of typical social development in college, which I think influences her odd way of holding grudges and splitting people into purely good/purely evil.
- I think a decent part of the behaviors I dislike are just social-awkwardness things and not strictly malicious…like the grudge thing, she'll bring up a grudge she has against x person in a social situation where someone doesn't even know who x is, a few other people are casually friends with x and don't know the whole context of how she and x had a fight. It's—to me—a weird and impolite way to go on a single-person rant about someone, but I don't think she really understands that. Same with not really respecting my boundaries initially—I don't think she read my signals of discomfort.
- When things are good (aka she's not going on a rant about someone she dislikes—unfortunately this happens almost every time we hang out) I absolutely love spending time with her. I can't stress this enough. I feel truly very close to her in those moments and we have a ton of shared interests and experiences together.
- Honestly, maybe I'm just being too judgmental? (That said, even if I am being judgey maybe it's a sign we're not compatible as friends anyway.)
Best answer: Honestly it sounds like you just need to be super blunt with her. When she brings up grudges, tell her to drop it and talk about something else. Laugh at her and tell her to drop it already. When she goes off on a rant, or starts saying someone doesn't deserve love, tell her she's being rude, don't be ridiculous, and talk about something else. This kind of behaviour would be annoying in anyone and she needs to learn it's not appropriate.
but it is exhausting to have to constantly worry about that and figure out a good way to push back on what she's saying
It sounds like you're trying to tiptoe round her when she's rude and are getting steamrolled, so: you don't need to figure out a good way to push back, or a delicate way, or a sensitive way. She doesn't understand hints or read signals. Just bluntly call her on her bullshit. Shut her down. She's wrong. People deserve love. Life is not black and white. Some of her faves are problematic.
Worst case she'll decide she hates you and you won't have to worry about how to drop her.
posted by corvine at 5:17 AM on August 23, 2016 [31 favorites]
but it is exhausting to have to constantly worry about that and figure out a good way to push back on what she's saying
It sounds like you're trying to tiptoe round her when she's rude and are getting steamrolled, so: you don't need to figure out a good way to push back, or a delicate way, or a sensitive way. She doesn't understand hints or read signals. Just bluntly call her on her bullshit. Shut her down. She's wrong. People deserve love. Life is not black and white. Some of her faves are problematic.
Worst case she'll decide she hates you and you won't have to worry about how to drop her.
posted by corvine at 5:17 AM on August 23, 2016 [31 favorites]
Best answer: This friendship sounds exhausting, and all of the options you mentioned are things you are 100% allowed to do.
Yes, you can try to adjust the friendship again. Yes, you can realize that while you thought you could do it, it turns out that you actually can't. Yes, you can say you've had enough.
Yes, you can make a move at a time when she will interpret it as having to do with Joanna because of her issues, and walk away with a clean conscience because you are a free agent. (Note: This item should be on your "reasons to walk away" list, and if this were a question about a person you were dating, this reason would DEFINITELY belong on that 🙅 list. If you agree with that for dating, what makes it different when that behaviour comes from a friend?)
My basic answer is going to be that you have a limited number of hours in a week and a limited amount of emotional energy to spend on other people. Choose which people in your life you would like to spend those hours with and that energy on. This woman is taking a lot of those hours and a PILE of that energy. If you want to reallocate that, do it.
I will also recommend reading the classic emotional labour thread, because you are doing a pile of work here and this discussion will help you sort out how you feel about it and what you are and aren't obligated to do.
posted by sadmadglad at 5:39 AM on August 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yes, you can try to adjust the friendship again. Yes, you can realize that while you thought you could do it, it turns out that you actually can't. Yes, you can say you've had enough.
Yes, you can make a move at a time when she will interpret it as having to do with Joanna because of her issues, and walk away with a clean conscience because you are a free agent. (Note: This item should be on your "reasons to walk away" list, and if this were a question about a person you were dating, this reason would DEFINITELY belong on that 🙅 list. If you agree with that for dating, what makes it different when that behaviour comes from a friend?)
My basic answer is going to be that you have a limited number of hours in a week and a limited amount of emotional energy to spend on other people. Choose which people in your life you would like to spend those hours with and that energy on. This woman is taking a lot of those hours and a PILE of that energy. If you want to reallocate that, do it.
I will also recommend reading the classic emotional labour thread, because you are doing a pile of work here and this discussion will help you sort out how you feel about it and what you are and aren't obligated to do.
posted by sadmadglad at 5:39 AM on August 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
It will impossible for anyone to answer because it ultimately comes down to whether you enjoy her company and/or like her enough to want to work through the relationship with her. Everyone has the potential to change but how long that takes and whether it's worth sticking around for is not something you can be advised on. She sounds quite young but that does not mean that she will eventually change or grow into a more mature person. The whole thing about worrying she'll think you've sided with someone else is just not your problem. You're taking on a lot of her 'stuff' and every time it comes up, i'd tell myself 'that's for her to deal with'. I think you've made the reasons why you want to part quite clear. It's worth doing it again but if she's not understanding (it's hard - hurtful? - to 'see' yourself in a critical light) then I would fade out. Have you ever just taken a break from her for a while? A few months? Is the trip paid for?
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 5:54 AM on August 23, 2016
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 5:54 AM on August 23, 2016
I think Corvine has it. A laugh, a smile, a "you have got to drop that" is the way to gently steer her toward better behavior. But if you end up having another big conversation about it, don't frame it primarily as things that bug you; frame it first and foremost as helping her not make her life so unnecessarily difficult. I think that's how to be a good friend, if you do decide to stay friends.
posted by nobody at 6:19 AM on August 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by nobody at 6:19 AM on August 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
Best answer: When I read this, it sounds like your exhausted and you are at the point you might have to potentially manage many, many interactions. Along those lines, I'm suggesting a different approach, but this might or might not work depending on the need to have discussing other people as part of a friendship.
Since it sounds like you are skilled in stating your needs and boundaries, I would have one more conversation, but more along these lines.
Start with why you appreciate her (this here from your own descriptions sounds great). You might want to emphasize the doing things/sharing interests to emphasize the point you want to make after this: I absolutely love spending time with her. I can't stress this enough. I feel truly very close to her in those moments and we have a ton of shared interests and experiences together. But do mention this to lower her anxiety and understand you value the friendship.
The next thing you could mention is (instead of each tiny instance) is that when she makes negative comments about why she doesn't like someone or about their choices, she is sometimes making statements and judgments about your friends, and you value your friendships, and it hurts your feelings (or makes you feel ________). But state it and let her think about it. Don't list certain people, because the whole loop can start again with another person/people.
If she is open to suggestions, you could also add that instead of spending all this time and energy picking apart people and why she doesn't like them and their choices, she could invest that time into meeting new people, making new friendships, starting new hobbies. Few people like everyone, and maybe she should try to find those people that she also enjoys and respects.
IF this approach doesn't work, another option is to cut back and spend time on specific activities instead (ie, hobby group activity only, no lunches or places where those conversations happen - you get the general idea). IME people usually push back though at being slowly not being invited to all other areas of your life - but you could try it as a way to save the friendship if the conversation doesn't work.
posted by Wolfster at 6:39 AM on August 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Since it sounds like you are skilled in stating your needs and boundaries, I would have one more conversation, but more along these lines.
Start with why you appreciate her (this here from your own descriptions sounds great). You might want to emphasize the doing things/sharing interests to emphasize the point you want to make after this: I absolutely love spending time with her. I can't stress this enough. I feel truly very close to her in those moments and we have a ton of shared interests and experiences together. But do mention this to lower her anxiety and understand you value the friendship.
The next thing you could mention is (instead of each tiny instance) is that when she makes negative comments about why she doesn't like someone or about their choices, she is sometimes making statements and judgments about your friends, and you value your friendships, and it hurts your feelings (or makes you feel ________). But state it and let her think about it. Don't list certain people, because the whole loop can start again with another person/people.
If she is open to suggestions, you could also add that instead of spending all this time and energy picking apart people and why she doesn't like them and their choices, she could invest that time into meeting new people, making new friendships, starting new hobbies. Few people like everyone, and maybe she should try to find those people that she also enjoys and respects.
IF this approach doesn't work, another option is to cut back and spend time on specific activities instead (ie, hobby group activity only, no lunches or places where those conversations happen - you get the general idea). IME people usually push back though at being slowly not being invited to all other areas of your life - but you could try it as a way to save the friendship if the conversation doesn't work.
posted by Wolfster at 6:39 AM on August 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Best answer: But if you end up having another big conversation about it, don't frame it primarily as things that bug you; frame it first and foremost as helping her not make her life so unnecessarily difficult.
I think both perspectives are valid. If she cares about you, and if you care about you, the fact that these things "bug you" is important. Since you care about her, making her life happier is important too.
If you're thinking seriously about ending the friendship, I think you're within your rights to set really firm boundaries and to be a bit of a rude person about it. You might warn her first. Not all friendships are alike, and you both might benefit from a shared understanding that you have ideas about how to treat people, and how to understand people, that she doesn't share; it doesn't just bother you, it actually makes you really upset and a little angry when she talks about other people as if they were simpler than they are (I almost typed "offended", but don't use that word); you think she'd be happier if she learned to think about other people more deeply; and you can't listen to that part of her.
I've personally been thinking a lot about socioeconomic background, how much time parents get with their children, how stressed parents and teachers are when they're bringing up their children, and how much social skill people are able to develop as a result. I've been thinking about how this applies to me.
It occurs to me that some kids learn from their parents or other adults that people can do things that seem bad, but that make sense to them given their circumstances and background. It can help the kids grow up to be more empathetic, successful, forgiving, and even good leaders.
If you don't have this lesson, you never learn that; it's easy to continue to divide people into "good people" and "bad people". At the same time, you don't even reflect on your own "bad" behavior. If you do or say something hurtful, you believe you were driven to do it or you "just got angry" -- you're not a bad person, you're just acting in the moment.
In college, as part of a formal academic class, I learned about something called the fundamental attribution error. It basically says that we tend to ascribe our own actions to external causes, but we tend to ascribe others' actions to their personality. I learned in school, as part of a class I just happened to take, what some people learn from their adept mothers or maybe in a church social setting. I've been thinking about it, and about how lucky I was, for years.
It sounds like your friend hasn't learned this kind of thing. Of course it's not "your job" to teach her, or to send her a link to the Wikipedia page on the fundamental attribution error, or to say "Maybe he did that because he was just angry in the moment even though he's a really good guy who actually loves her" every time you hear her being narrow-minded. I mention these ideas in case they help you strategize.
posted by amtho at 6:50 AM on August 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
I think both perspectives are valid. If she cares about you, and if you care about you, the fact that these things "bug you" is important. Since you care about her, making her life happier is important too.
If you're thinking seriously about ending the friendship, I think you're within your rights to set really firm boundaries and to be a bit of a rude person about it. You might warn her first. Not all friendships are alike, and you both might benefit from a shared understanding that you have ideas about how to treat people, and how to understand people, that she doesn't share; it doesn't just bother you, it actually makes you really upset and a little angry when she talks about other people as if they were simpler than they are (I almost typed "offended", but don't use that word); you think she'd be happier if she learned to think about other people more deeply; and you can't listen to that part of her.
I've personally been thinking a lot about socioeconomic background, how much time parents get with their children, how stressed parents and teachers are when they're bringing up their children, and how much social skill people are able to develop as a result. I've been thinking about how this applies to me.
It occurs to me that some kids learn from their parents or other adults that people can do things that seem bad, but that make sense to them given their circumstances and background. It can help the kids grow up to be more empathetic, successful, forgiving, and even good leaders.
If you don't have this lesson, you never learn that; it's easy to continue to divide people into "good people" and "bad people". At the same time, you don't even reflect on your own "bad" behavior. If you do or say something hurtful, you believe you were driven to do it or you "just got angry" -- you're not a bad person, you're just acting in the moment.
In college, as part of a formal academic class, I learned about something called the fundamental attribution error. It basically says that we tend to ascribe our own actions to external causes, but we tend to ascribe others' actions to their personality. I learned in school, as part of a class I just happened to take, what some people learn from their adept mothers or maybe in a church social setting. I've been thinking about it, and about how lucky I was, for years.
It sounds like your friend hasn't learned this kind of thing. Of course it's not "your job" to teach her, or to send her a link to the Wikipedia page on the fundamental attribution error, or to say "Maybe he did that because he was just angry in the moment even though he's a really good guy who actually loves her" every time you hear her being narrow-minded. I mention these ideas in case they help you strategize.
posted by amtho at 6:50 AM on August 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
Just return her calls less. No need for huge break up talks.
Lighten up a bit, adult friends drift closer and farther all the time. I'd only tell her all these things you don't like about here if your intent is to lob a big drama bomb into the friend group.
posted by SaltySalticid at 6:51 AM on August 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
Lighten up a bit, adult friends drift closer and farther all the time. I'd only tell her all these things you don't like about here if your intent is to lob a big drama bomb into the friend group.
posted by SaltySalticid at 6:51 AM on August 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
Best answer: To go with the classic advice here, have you recommended that she consider therapy? Fixing her isn't your job, but helping her fix herself is literally a therapist's job. Does she want more friends? Does she want a relationship? If she's cognitive that she's doing something wrong as far as attracting people, she might be willing to take steps to correct it with professional help.
I had a similarly toxic acquaintance that I just did the slow fade on because I came away from every interaction feeling bad because of the negativity. She was delightful when she was positive, but inevitably things would swing to her spewing bile at something. I wasn't emotionally invested in the relationship, so after a few months I just let it drop by always being busy when she wanted to do something.
If you want to try to make one last attempt at really getting through, you can just start leaving when she goes into the negative zone. "I'm sorry, we've talked about this before, and I just can't continue this conversation." Either the message will finally get through or she'll label you as "bad."
You might also use breaking off the trip (which you should do - there's no point in going on a vacation that's not going to be fun for you) as a come to deity of choice moment for her.
posted by Candleman at 6:55 AM on August 23, 2016
I had a similarly toxic acquaintance that I just did the slow fade on because I came away from every interaction feeling bad because of the negativity. She was delightful when she was positive, but inevitably things would swing to her spewing bile at something. I wasn't emotionally invested in the relationship, so after a few months I just let it drop by always being busy when she wanted to do something.
If you want to try to make one last attempt at really getting through, you can just start leaving when she goes into the negative zone. "I'm sorry, we've talked about this before, and I just can't continue this conversation." Either the message will finally get through or she'll label you as "bad."
You might also use breaking off the trip (which you should do - there's no point in going on a vacation that's not going to be fun for you) as a come to deity of choice moment for her.
posted by Candleman at 6:55 AM on August 23, 2016
Best answer: It sounds like she is deeply unhappy - this may not have always been the case, but certainly seems to be now. You're both 22 and your friendship started when you were both 19 - just setting out into the world as adults together. She has had three years of adulting and they do not seem to be going well. It also seems like she feels that friendship is an alliance sort of process, whereas you take it a little more casually.
It kind of seems harsh to me to be dumping a friend when they're going through a tough time, though. Most of the stuff you relate is just "seeing things through a glass of negativity, and being loyal." These aren't exactly friend-sins. That's why friend-breaking-up won't go easily - because what you're essentially saying is, "You're kind of a drag when you're sad."
I think the best way to deal with this if you really can't handle her when she's sad is to say, "Hey, I'm struggling with some things myself, and I can't deal with negativity right now." It puts it on you rather than her and motivates her to want to try for you.
posted by corb at 7:03 AM on August 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
It kind of seems harsh to me to be dumping a friend when they're going through a tough time, though. Most of the stuff you relate is just "seeing things through a glass of negativity, and being loyal." These aren't exactly friend-sins. That's why friend-breaking-up won't go easily - because what you're essentially saying is, "You're kind of a drag when you're sad."
I think the best way to deal with this if you really can't handle her when she's sad is to say, "Hey, I'm struggling with some things myself, and I can't deal with negativity right now." It puts it on you rather than her and motivates her to want to try for you.
posted by corb at 7:03 AM on August 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Are you dating each other?
Otherwise, you are spending too much time on this friendship and with this friend group! Branch out! Get busy! Do other things!!
There. I solve 90% for you. Otherwise, keep enforcing those boundaries.
"Jan, I know you don't like X for good reasons but it's a downer. Can we talk about something else?"
posted by jbenben at 7:26 AM on August 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Otherwise, you are spending too much time on this friendship and with this friend group! Branch out! Get busy! Do other things!!
There. I solve 90% for you. Otherwise, keep enforcing those boundaries.
"Jan, I know you don't like X for good reasons but it's a downer. Can we talk about something else?"
posted by jbenben at 7:26 AM on August 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I will say that I think it's very promising that she appears willing to learn at the age of 22, given your discussions about boundaries and her learning to be responsive when you called her out on being mean. It sounds a lot to me that she might not actually be that bad, but that she's really just now learning how to be friends with people and not be so socially weird and judgy. From the little you've said, it sounds a lot to me like her parents might be judgy, which I imagine she's kind of carrying along herself and hasn't learned yet that she can let it go. Hopefully, she will, because 22 is way, way too young to think you've failed at life. Hell, 80 is too young to think that, too, but you know what I mean.
On the other hand, it's not your job to help her with this, unless you want it to be. I think it's kind of up to you, and that there's no easy answer here, that anybody saying to dump her OR to keep her is not necessarily right objectively. I agree with Corvine about being more blunt with her, not because it will necessarily help her (though I think it will) but because it feels like that would take less energy from you and give you the chance to preserve this friendship, which to me sounds like it might have a lot of value to you if she could chill out.
I will add that treating her like a project, like someone who is lonely and fucked up and who needs you, is no basis for a good friendship, though. Do it because of what you want, not because of what she needs or wants. Choosing who to be friends with based on what you like and want rather than how anybody else feels is a very, very excellent way to be, in my experience. So, in the very end, if you don't want to hang out with her, don't. You can talk to her about it or not, it's up to you, but don't force it if you don't want it.
posted by hought20 at 8:43 AM on August 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
On the other hand, it's not your job to help her with this, unless you want it to be. I think it's kind of up to you, and that there's no easy answer here, that anybody saying to dump her OR to keep her is not necessarily right objectively. I agree with Corvine about being more blunt with her, not because it will necessarily help her (though I think it will) but because it feels like that would take less energy from you and give you the chance to preserve this friendship, which to me sounds like it might have a lot of value to you if she could chill out.
I will add that treating her like a project, like someone who is lonely and fucked up and who needs you, is no basis for a good friendship, though. Do it because of what you want, not because of what she needs or wants. Choosing who to be friends with based on what you like and want rather than how anybody else feels is a very, very excellent way to be, in my experience. So, in the very end, if you don't want to hang out with her, don't. You can talk to her about it or not, it's up to you, but don't force it if you don't want it.
posted by hought20 at 8:43 AM on August 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Best answer: It's worth remembering that you can't control what others do or how they react. You can be kind and considerate and enforce boundaries when others make you uncomfortable. That's not being mean, that's being an adult. And she makes you uncomfortable and it stresses you so the right thing to do is to enforce a boundary. I agree she sounds really unhappy/could probably benefit from therapy but I wouldn't have the bandwidth to deal with her regularly.
First things first, you shouldn't go on that trip with her. It sounds like you may have a plan B so execute that right now. Or just cancel. I have a travel buddy and we get on really well, have been on multiple trips but after a while we start to go on each others nerves - a bit. Because it's only a bit and because we have a generally positive relationship we manage to have enjoyable trips regardless. But if you start off annoyed that is a recipe for a really bad trip - for both of you. So cancel that trip - for a made up reason if you must. Your stress level will go down immediately.
Then, if you feel up to it - have another big talk. This negativity will be offputting to a lot of people and it would be a kindness to actually explain that's a problem for you specifically, in your experiences it may be one for others as well. Others have provided scripts.
If she makes an effort after that, great, meet again, enforce boundary as required.
If she doesn't make an effort, you've said your piece kindly. You're now no longer available.
If you don't feel up to having that talk, you could try just redirecting as required. If that works great, if not you're no longer available.
Even if she manages to dial back the negativity some you may want to consider rationing your contact with her/people like her. If it's all one way it will always be draining. You can be kind and occasionally humour these people but it should be limited so you don't neglect other aspects of your life/other friendships, that are less one way as a result.
posted by koahiatamadl at 8:53 AM on August 23, 2016
First things first, you shouldn't go on that trip with her. It sounds like you may have a plan B so execute that right now. Or just cancel. I have a travel buddy and we get on really well, have been on multiple trips but after a while we start to go on each others nerves - a bit. Because it's only a bit and because we have a generally positive relationship we manage to have enjoyable trips regardless. But if you start off annoyed that is a recipe for a really bad trip - for both of you. So cancel that trip - for a made up reason if you must. Your stress level will go down immediately.
Then, if you feel up to it - have another big talk. This negativity will be offputting to a lot of people and it would be a kindness to actually explain that's a problem for you specifically, in your experiences it may be one for others as well. Others have provided scripts.
If she makes an effort after that, great, meet again, enforce boundary as required.
If she doesn't make an effort, you've said your piece kindly. You're now no longer available.
If you don't feel up to having that talk, you could try just redirecting as required. If that works great, if not you're no longer available.
Even if she manages to dial back the negativity some you may want to consider rationing your contact with her/people like her. If it's all one way it will always be draining. You can be kind and occasionally humour these people but it should be limited so you don't neglect other aspects of your life/other friendships, that are less one way as a result.
posted by koahiatamadl at 8:53 AM on August 23, 2016
As I've gotten older I have decided I will not waste my time on people that make me feel bad and exhausted. I feel so much happier for it.
You clearly don't want to be friends with this person anymore and that's ok. If you feel that way, whatever your reasons are, they're valid.
And don't worry about how this will make her feel. You cannot be responsible for other peoples feelings. As long as you're not mean, it's ok.
posted by shesbenevolent at 9:36 AM on August 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
You clearly don't want to be friends with this person anymore and that's ok. If you feel that way, whatever your reasons are, they're valid.
And don't worry about how this will make her feel. You cannot be responsible for other peoples feelings. As long as you're not mean, it's ok.
posted by shesbenevolent at 9:36 AM on August 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Best answer: There are a lot of good ways to work on improving this friendship, but they all involve constant effort on your part - it's not easy coming up with firm but gentle ways to tell her not to act like that. And it leads to constant awareness of her behavior and possibly over-sensitivity, i.e. she's already used up your patience, so every fault annoys you now. Exhausting!
The two obvious options are to try to do graceful gentle corrections and mold her behavior (small increments) into something you find pleasant, or to put your foot down and say you can't stand it, she hasn't changed (big picture) and you're done. And it sounds like you're looking for ways to gently and gracefully fade away in the big picture. That's kind of three quadrants - tiny behaviors vs big picture, and gentle requests vs argument/ending it. A fourth option is to do small-increments putting your foot down. When she says something about x, don't approach it as "gosh, that's not nice to say, you know it bothers me", go ahead and bust out the big guns. "Look, we talked about this. I cannot stand around listening to that type of disrespect towards decent people. I'm done for tonight." and either go home or go off to the other side of the party.
posted by aimedwander at 9:50 AM on August 23, 2016
The two obvious options are to try to do graceful gentle corrections and mold her behavior (small increments) into something you find pleasant, or to put your foot down and say you can't stand it, she hasn't changed (big picture) and you're done. And it sounds like you're looking for ways to gently and gracefully fade away in the big picture. That's kind of three quadrants - tiny behaviors vs big picture, and gentle requests vs argument/ending it. A fourth option is to do small-increments putting your foot down. When she says something about x, don't approach it as "gosh, that's not nice to say, you know it bothers me", go ahead and bust out the big guns. "Look, we talked about this. I cannot stand around listening to that type of disrespect towards decent people. I'm done for tonight." and either go home or go off to the other side of the party.
posted by aimedwander at 9:50 AM on August 23, 2016
I wonder whether you're being cautious about ending things because you know how judgemental she is, and how likely it is that she'll be saying bad things about you for the next 10 years if you make her mad. It sucks that this is a real kind of blackmail. Look around at your shared-friends group and consider whether you think you'd lose them if she were mad at you, and whether you'd care. That type of "my friends/your friends" divide happens when couples split up, and people know to expect it, when when it's just a pair of friends on the outs, a group can be much more prone to choose sides without realizing it. So, if you do decide to cut her loose, make sure to talk with your good friends of that mutual friends group either beforehand or soon after, and establish that you're really done with her, you had your reasons, you expect she'll be badmouthing you, and you encourage them not to take what she says at face value.
posted by aimedwander at 9:55 AM on August 23, 2016
posted by aimedwander at 9:55 AM on August 23, 2016
Best answer: It sounds like you're a natural counselor type who really wants to help/rescue/fix this person. That's not your job, it's not what you want out of this friendship, and it's making you kind of look down on her like "OK hurry up and become the friend I want you to be" which isn't fair to either of you. It also doesn't sound like rescuing is what she wants out of a friendship with you.
If you don't want to cut this person off completely, you don't have to. Reducing the amount of time you spend with someone (and the amount of energy you spend on someone) is a form of boundary setting that is well worth practicing and that I think a lot of us do not use at all until we're in our mid-20s! I now spend a lot less time with friends that annoy me if I hang out with them a lot and I'm much happier as a result. Do they sometimes say they miss me and press for more than I am willing to give? Sure. But it's better for me to be a little more detached than for me to be over-involved and condescending.
As for what to say, you've already had those conversations. You've told her repeatedly that you don't like the way she talks about other people. She's not going to change. You're not her therapist. Just tell her that you're busy (even if you aren't), hang out with her when you feel you can tolerate it and possibly for shorter periods of time, and see if you get less annoyed.
You're not doing her any favours by continuing to hang out with her wishing she was a different person. You're not doing yourself any favours either. So why are you doing it? Investigate what feelings drive you to keep doing this. I say this because my own rescuing tendencies are part of a larger pattern of poor boundaries and figuring that out really helped me have healthier friendships in general.
Best of luck!
posted by buteo at 11:38 AM on August 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
If you don't want to cut this person off completely, you don't have to. Reducing the amount of time you spend with someone (and the amount of energy you spend on someone) is a form of boundary setting that is well worth practicing and that I think a lot of us do not use at all until we're in our mid-20s! I now spend a lot less time with friends that annoy me if I hang out with them a lot and I'm much happier as a result. Do they sometimes say they miss me and press for more than I am willing to give? Sure. But it's better for me to be a little more detached than for me to be over-involved and condescending.
As for what to say, you've already had those conversations. You've told her repeatedly that you don't like the way she talks about other people. She's not going to change. You're not her therapist. Just tell her that you're busy (even if you aren't), hang out with her when you feel you can tolerate it and possibly for shorter periods of time, and see if you get less annoyed.
You're not doing her any favours by continuing to hang out with her wishing she was a different person. You're not doing yourself any favours either. So why are you doing it? Investigate what feelings drive you to keep doing this. I say this because my own rescuing tendencies are part of a larger pattern of poor boundaries and figuring that out really helped me have healthier friendships in general.
Best of luck!
posted by buteo at 11:38 AM on August 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
You sound wiped out emotionally and kind of frazzled from the stress of dealing with this issue. When I get that way, I just want to throw up my hands and walk away from the situation entirely...but it hasn't always served me well, especially where other people are concerned.
I would have a heartfelt face-to-face talk with her emphasizing your feelings without any specific relation to her: "Friend, I am getting kind of run ragged and stressed out here. I'm going to experiment a little this fall by taking more alone time for myself, exploring the city on my own, going to weird events that strike my fancy, meeting people outside my bubble, etc. We've had a lot of conversations recently about being open and honest friends, so I'm not telling you this to push you away, and this isn't me trying to dump you or even avoid you - I'm just trying to explore and grow a little. I think it might help you to do the same, if you want to." Then keep in regular contact with her, even if just by email or text, and have coffee once a month or something.
You have nearly your whole adult life ahead of you! And so does she - she is in no way a failure of her parents' goals yet. The more of the world she explores and gets to know, the less black and white she will likely be in her thinking.
posted by sallybrown at 12:08 PM on August 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
I would have a heartfelt face-to-face talk with her emphasizing your feelings without any specific relation to her: "Friend, I am getting kind of run ragged and stressed out here. I'm going to experiment a little this fall by taking more alone time for myself, exploring the city on my own, going to weird events that strike my fancy, meeting people outside my bubble, etc. We've had a lot of conversations recently about being open and honest friends, so I'm not telling you this to push you away, and this isn't me trying to dump you or even avoid you - I'm just trying to explore and grow a little. I think it might help you to do the same, if you want to." Then keep in regular contact with her, even if just by email or text, and have coffee once a month or something.
You have nearly your whole adult life ahead of you! And so does she - she is in no way a failure of her parents' goals yet. The more of the world she explores and gets to know, the less black and white she will likely be in her thinking.
posted by sallybrown at 12:08 PM on August 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Lots of great advice here. It sounds like you are exhausted with this person, but it also sounds like you do enjoy her company on a real level, so it's probably in your interests to avoid making quick decisions and maybe burning bridges in a way you might regret. I'd recommend pulling back for a month or so--just be busy on the days you usually get together, don't answer your phone so much etc.--and then see how you feel. If you still want out, you can continue to fade, but if you do decide that you want to make an effort for this person, there are lots of good strategies outlined here.
posted by rpfields at 2:30 PM on August 23, 2016
posted by rpfields at 2:30 PM on August 23, 2016
Response by poster: Thank you all for the wise and thoughtful responses. It's very much appreciated.
sadmadglad , we've actually both read the emotional labor thread and to be honest I have been frustrated with the lessons she's taken from it. I feel that she doesn't recognize the deep and significant emotional labor other people put into her, and will often insist that she doesn't have to continue a conversation or talk about an issue if she doesn't want to. Briefly, I think she expects that other people will handle her with kid gloves but feels it's too much effort to put in that labor herself. I certainly find it tough to have to constantly check my own feelings when talking to her and constantly reassure her of our friendship, find ways to make her less anxious when I push back, and so on, at the expense of fully expressing my concerns.
Wolfster , thanks for your tips. Honestly, rereading this thread makes me want to continue the friendship, it's just emotionally unsustainable for me to do so with the current dynamic. I do feel awkward pushing back and saying "this is my friend, I wish you wouldn't say that" because a lot of how she characterizes her grievances are in social justice terms—this person said a racist thing, this person was not enough of an ally, this person is dismissive of women. In some cases I agree, in some cases I don't. In the cases I don't…once I confronted her about it and was told "you didn't grow up in a very white, racist area like I did" and essentially dismissed my concerns by saying I was not in a position to judge. (We are both WOC. Her statement is true—I was very shielded from casually racist comments for most of my life—but I still find it hurtful in a peculiar way.) But it's really hard to push back and navigate the line of "it's okay for you to dislike and distrust this person, but even if they are more powerful/were wrong in a certain situation, you can still be cruel in how you talk about them". I question myself a lot, honestly, about whether I'm just being a shitty person or a shitty ally, but I've come around to feeling that at the very least our method of handling these situations is strongly incompatible.
I worry that there is actually a strong disconnect between how we choose to view people and respond to people. I don't dismiss people easily from my life, and although I don't want to dismiss how she (or one of her close friends) was hurt by another person, I'm still willing to keep said person in my life if I feel they have apologized for their actions, I can confront them about bad behavior comfortably, and they are very respectful and kind to me. I don't bring up my friendships with people she dislikes (I won't mention "I spent time with x this weekend and she was so great and fun") but I feel like I'm being disloyal or duplicitous in some way, to someone.
All this to say I would really like to make those gentle suggestions, just extremely hesitant and gun-shy about trying to do so. I'm not by nature a very confrontational person, so it's a lot of effort for me to push back against a friend's behavior.
amtho, I think this feels very true in this situation:
Candleman, she is in therapy. I optimistically hoped (about a few months prior) that this would smooth over some of her behaviors I find most negative/troubling, but it hasn't yet. I do agree with you (and others) that I need to be much more explicit about setting my boundaries and acting on them in the moment.
corb, thanks for your thoughts. I do have a lot of mixed feelings on this…I do have a sense that as a friend, I should stick by her. I also worry, though—in line with what hought20 said—that I don't want to feel that I just need to stick around and "fix" her. I would really like a friendship where we can feel equal.
I have been taking some distance lately (death in the family, expected but still jarring) and it's been honestly very peaceful.
witchen, I really do want to say "just let it go!" I feel like it won't be received well, so maybe I need to find a better way to frame it (is it a bit concern-trolly?) but I honestly find it frustrating that she breathes new life into grievances, in ways that alienate me and others, and in a certain way I worry that she hasn't found a way to move on from past issues. We both had an issue with a very, very toxic mutual friend at the beginning of our friendship, who bullied both of us privately and eventually somewhat publicly. I don't want to deny it was a difficult experience. But it took a long time for her to stop bringing this friend up, and I feel that her constantly doing so wasn't a way of working things out—it was a way of sustaining that hurt for longer, and not very emotionally healthy.
aimedwander, I do appreciate the quadrants visualization. I think I should try the "small-increments putting your foot down", partly because I feel like such an ugly duplicitous weak-willed kind of person having to stay in a conversation and go "I would like to not talk about this…" and listen with great discomfort.
buteo, I'm definitely a counselor type…and yeah, you're right that I have a (probably unfair) frustration at how she handles things. A certain degree of distance would probably help, because right now I feel constantly stressed and torn between "I should intervene more" and "what's even the point of me intervening?"
It's been especially tough in the past month because—although I haven't really dialed down time with her—I've spent more time with other friends of mine, and it's been really soothing to realize I don't constantly have to be on edge, I can trust my friends to be circumspect in talking about people/things they dislike. It's maybe an early-twenties thing, but there's a bit of me that feels like just distancing myself from her is a soft rejection. She and another friend have become more distant (I think, honestly, more because of life/scheduling reasons) but she's taken it quite hard and variously goes between "I find this person problematic anyway" and "I'm hurt it feels like they don't have time for me". I kind of worry distancing myself from her will turn into that mixture of resentment/anxiety—possibly not my problem in any case, though.
Thanks for the well-wishes. It's helpful to talk this out with everyone who's posted in this thread. Again, it's really appreciated, since this has been a really tough situation to navigate.
posted by Sudo at 5:06 PM on August 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
sadmadglad , we've actually both read the emotional labor thread and to be honest I have been frustrated with the lessons she's taken from it. I feel that she doesn't recognize the deep and significant emotional labor other people put into her, and will often insist that she doesn't have to continue a conversation or talk about an issue if she doesn't want to. Briefly, I think she expects that other people will handle her with kid gloves but feels it's too much effort to put in that labor herself. I certainly find it tough to have to constantly check my own feelings when talking to her and constantly reassure her of our friendship, find ways to make her less anxious when I push back, and so on, at the expense of fully expressing my concerns.
Wolfster , thanks for your tips. Honestly, rereading this thread makes me want to continue the friendship, it's just emotionally unsustainable for me to do so with the current dynamic. I do feel awkward pushing back and saying "this is my friend, I wish you wouldn't say that" because a lot of how she characterizes her grievances are in social justice terms—this person said a racist thing, this person was not enough of an ally, this person is dismissive of women. In some cases I agree, in some cases I don't. In the cases I don't…once I confronted her about it and was told "you didn't grow up in a very white, racist area like I did" and essentially dismissed my concerns by saying I was not in a position to judge. (We are both WOC. Her statement is true—I was very shielded from casually racist comments for most of my life—but I still find it hurtful in a peculiar way.) But it's really hard to push back and navigate the line of "it's okay for you to dislike and distrust this person, but even if they are more powerful/were wrong in a certain situation, you can still be cruel in how you talk about them". I question myself a lot, honestly, about whether I'm just being a shitty person or a shitty ally, but I've come around to feeling that at the very least our method of handling these situations is strongly incompatible.
I worry that there is actually a strong disconnect between how we choose to view people and respond to people. I don't dismiss people easily from my life, and although I don't want to dismiss how she (or one of her close friends) was hurt by another person, I'm still willing to keep said person in my life if I feel they have apologized for their actions, I can confront them about bad behavior comfortably, and they are very respectful and kind to me. I don't bring up my friendships with people she dislikes (I won't mention "I spent time with x this weekend and she was so great and fun") but I feel like I'm being disloyal or duplicitous in some way, to someone.
All this to say I would really like to make those gentle suggestions, just extremely hesitant and gun-shy about trying to do so. I'm not by nature a very confrontational person, so it's a lot of effort for me to push back against a friend's behavior.
amtho, I think this feels very true in this situation:
some kids learn from their parents or other adults that people can do things that seem bad, but that make sense to them given their circumstances and background. It can help the kids grow up to be more empathetic, successful, forgiving, and even good leaders.I sometimes wonder if—because her relationship with her parents is not strong and criticism from them doesn't seem like good-faith criticism but rather the ugly, guilt-trippy kind of criticism—it's not easy for her to look at herself and say "I am doing something bad, but I am not a bad person". I think it's at least very similar to how she views people: if someone does something bad, they're trash and don't deserve love or a more charitable interpretation of events. If someone feels generally good to her, she'll interpret many of their actions in a very positive and generous way. I honestly feel a little nervous that I am apparently one of the "good people", because I really value friendships where someone can be honest with me when I'm doing something wrong, and because she's gone from enthusiastically liking someone to bringing up her problems with said person constantly. I keep on worrying that she'll flip on me and then I'll be the person that is a bitch, doesn't deserve love, my boyfriend should just dump me, and so on.
If you don't have this lesson, you never learn that; it's easy to continue to divide people into "good people" and "bad people". At the same time, you don't even reflect on your own "bad" behavior. If you do or say something hurtful, you believe you were driven to do it or you "just got angry" -- you're not a bad person, you're just acting in the moment.
Candleman, she is in therapy. I optimistically hoped (about a few months prior) that this would smooth over some of her behaviors I find most negative/troubling, but it hasn't yet. I do agree with you (and others) that I need to be much more explicit about setting my boundaries and acting on them in the moment.
corb, thanks for your thoughts. I do have a lot of mixed feelings on this…I do have a sense that as a friend, I should stick by her. I also worry, though—in line with what hought20 said—that I don't want to feel that I just need to stick around and "fix" her. I would really like a friendship where we can feel equal.
I have been taking some distance lately (death in the family, expected but still jarring) and it's been honestly very peaceful.
witchen, I really do want to say "just let it go!" I feel like it won't be received well, so maybe I need to find a better way to frame it (is it a bit concern-trolly?) but I honestly find it frustrating that she breathes new life into grievances, in ways that alienate me and others, and in a certain way I worry that she hasn't found a way to move on from past issues. We both had an issue with a very, very toxic mutual friend at the beginning of our friendship, who bullied both of us privately and eventually somewhat publicly. I don't want to deny it was a difficult experience. But it took a long time for her to stop bringing this friend up, and I feel that her constantly doing so wasn't a way of working things out—it was a way of sustaining that hurt for longer, and not very emotionally healthy.
aimedwander, I do appreciate the quadrants visualization. I think I should try the "small-increments putting your foot down", partly because I feel like such an ugly duplicitous weak-willed kind of person having to stay in a conversation and go "I would like to not talk about this…" and listen with great discomfort.
buteo, I'm definitely a counselor type…and yeah, you're right that I have a (probably unfair) frustration at how she handles things. A certain degree of distance would probably help, because right now I feel constantly stressed and torn between "I should intervene more" and "what's even the point of me intervening?"
It's been especially tough in the past month because—although I haven't really dialed down time with her—I've spent more time with other friends of mine, and it's been really soothing to realize I don't constantly have to be on edge, I can trust my friends to be circumspect in talking about people/things they dislike. It's maybe an early-twenties thing, but there's a bit of me that feels like just distancing myself from her is a soft rejection. She and another friend have become more distant (I think, honestly, more because of life/scheduling reasons) but she's taken it quite hard and variously goes between "I find this person problematic anyway" and "I'm hurt it feels like they don't have time for me". I kind of worry distancing myself from her will turn into that mixture of resentment/anxiety—possibly not my problem in any case, though.
Thanks for the well-wishes. It's helpful to talk this out with everyone who's posted in this thread. Again, it's really appreciated, since this has been a really tough situation to navigate.
posted by Sudo at 5:06 PM on August 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
You can make clear to her that, even though you see her sometimes being unkind and even hurtful to other people, that doesn't make her a bad person. You still care about her, even though you care about these other people, and this action of hers hurts you.
posted by amtho at 7:02 PM on August 23, 2016
posted by amtho at 7:02 PM on August 23, 2016
It might be worth sharing (very briefly) problems that you have with other people, and discussing (in detail) how you fix them. She probably wants to learn how to manage difficult situations for herself.
Possibly she also feels that she's letting you into her emotional world, and you're not reciprocating, which is why she doesn't moderate herself.
Also, you're both 22. You can change a lot in her, and you can learn great techniques for managing relationships for yourself through doing it.
posted by ambrosen at 3:04 AM on August 24, 2016
Possibly she also feels that she's letting you into her emotional world, and you're not reciprocating, which is why she doesn't moderate herself.
Also, you're both 22. You can change a lot in her, and you can learn great techniques for managing relationships for yourself through doing it.
posted by ambrosen at 3:04 AM on August 24, 2016
Just a data point: I've lived with someone with BPD, who engages in this kind of "all good" or "all bad" splitting. Pushing back sometimes exacerbates things because she feels as though I'm not supportive of *her* (even though I don't have a dog in the fight she's having). You mention that she wants YOU to feel the same indignation that she feels, and that's very much like my BPD family member.
The way I've found to validate her feelings while not pushing her away or making her feel "bad" is to respond to her complaints by saying, with a sigh, "Well... [so-and-so] has been kicking around that way for 50 years... they're just never going to change..."
Then I try to switch the topic to something lighter.
If she continues to complain, I say again (with a "too bad for us, huh?" head shake), "ah.... welp... they're just never gonna change..."
You don't need to get involved. You don't need to agree or disagree. And this way, it's harder for her to toss you into the "all bad" category (been there... kind a relief, but also no fun)
posted by Dressed to Kill at 8:35 AM on August 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
The way I've found to validate her feelings while not pushing her away or making her feel "bad" is to respond to her complaints by saying, with a sigh, "Well... [so-and-so] has been kicking around that way for 50 years... they're just never going to change..."
Then I try to switch the topic to something lighter.
If she continues to complain, I say again (with a "too bad for us, huh?" head shake), "ah.... welp... they're just never gonna change..."
You don't need to get involved. You don't need to agree or disagree. And this way, it's harder for her to toss you into the "all bad" category (been there... kind a relief, but also no fun)
posted by Dressed to Kill at 8:35 AM on August 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
sadmadglad , we've actually both read the emotional labor thread and to be honest I have been frustrated with the lessons she's taken from it. I feel that she doesn't recognize the deep and significant emotional labor other people put into her, and will often insist that she doesn't have to continue a conversation or talk about an issue if she doesn't want to. Briefly, I think she expects that other people will handle her with kid gloves but feels it's too much effort to put in that labor herself. I certainly find it tough to have to constantly check my own feelings when talking to her and constantly reassure her of our friendship, find ways to make her less anxious when I push back, and so on, at the expense of fully expressing my concerns.
That's fair. You're right, she doesn't see it. She does react when people hit her sore spots. She thinks people are either on her side or unsafe and toxic. She doesn't currently have the capacity to empathize with you and make room for you, to hold her tongue and really hear you. Maybe this is due to some of the other things you've alluded to in your update. There is a current of unsafe toxic anti-POC violence that is very loud and visible right now. It's traumatizing. It still doesn't mean you are obligated to get swept under in her wake.
The key for you in EL thread is not about her recognizing your labour. It's about you recognizing and choosing your labour.
You have put this labour in, despite the effect it has on you. You chose to spend time with someone who shuts you down, who you fear will turn on you. You chose to take her anxiety on. You chose which boundaries to set and which to let her trample on. (Example: don't talk shit about my friends.) These are the choices you can change.
It is the most difficult work in the world, to resist that fixing impulse. It is so much easier to swoop in at your own expense once again. But your labour is valuable and it is up to you where you spend it. If she were lifting you up, if this was a mutually supportive relationship, if you were not afraid...it would be different. But you can't make her do that work, you can only choose for you.
Keep taking a step back. Carve out your healing space. Check in with yourself when you spend time with yourself and find a balance that works for you.
posted by sadmadglad at 5:41 AM on September 5, 2016
That's fair. You're right, she doesn't see it. She does react when people hit her sore spots. She thinks people are either on her side or unsafe and toxic. She doesn't currently have the capacity to empathize with you and make room for you, to hold her tongue and really hear you. Maybe this is due to some of the other things you've alluded to in your update. There is a current of unsafe toxic anti-POC violence that is very loud and visible right now. It's traumatizing. It still doesn't mean you are obligated to get swept under in her wake.
The key for you in EL thread is not about her recognizing your labour. It's about you recognizing and choosing your labour.
You have put this labour in, despite the effect it has on you. You chose to spend time with someone who shuts you down, who you fear will turn on you. You chose to take her anxiety on. You chose which boundaries to set and which to let her trample on. (Example: don't talk shit about my friends.) These are the choices you can change.
It is the most difficult work in the world, to resist that fixing impulse. It is so much easier to swoop in at your own expense once again. But your labour is valuable and it is up to you where you spend it. If she were lifting you up, if this was a mutually supportive relationship, if you were not afraid...it would be different. But you can't make her do that work, you can only choose for you.
Keep taking a step back. Carve out your healing space. Check in with yourself when you spend time with yourself and find a balance that works for you.
posted by sadmadglad at 5:41 AM on September 5, 2016
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posted by Sudo at 4:59 AM on August 23, 2016