Deciding whether to resume contact with an estranged friend
December 19, 2015 10:11 AM Subscribe
My childhood best friend decided to marry her partner of 20 years five weeks after my former partner committed suicide. I attended the reception but it was very hard for me. I haven’t spoken to her since. Today I got a Christmas card from her mother, and it stirred up some feelings I haven't been able to reconcile yet.
We’d been best friends since we were 7 years old. We grew up together, were part of each other’s families, etc. She was like a sister to me. Her extended family meant a great deal to me, I miss them, and they miss me. $Friend's_Parents live not far from the cemetery where my mother is buried. I would like to see them sometimes when I go up there to visit my mom’s grave. But I don't want to see $Friend yet. The few people I’ve discussed this with have all mostly said, “It’s a shame to lose one of your oldest friendships, are you sure you don’t want to talk to her?” I lost two other friends after S. died, and those losses hurt, but they don’t wear on me nearly as much as this one does.
I think I miss her, but there is such a great gulf of hurt in the way that I don’t know if I can get past it. We’d grown apart somewhat in recent years, partially attributable to being adults with busy lives, but there were some festering things that we’d needed to discuss, and it just never happened.
On the ride home from their reception, I told myself, “I can talk to her again someday, when it stops hurting.” It’s been a little over two years and it hasn’t stopped hurting yet. I’m not really sure what I am asking here…it’s hard to articulate. Her wedding magnified very painful things for me during a wretched period of my life, and I don’t know how to convey that to her, let alone know how to discuss it with her. If they had chosen to do this at any other time, I would’ve been SO SO happy for them and would’ve loved to celebrate their wedding. Of course it was their decision, and they were entitled to get married any old time that they could’ve wanted. I’m sad that I couldn’t be happy for them and get to celebrate with them, because of the timing. Why did it have to be five weeks after my (yes, former) partner died? I know it’s irrational for me to feel so hurt, but there it is, and I can’t get past it yet. For most of the reception, I tried to make smalltalk and not notice that while she was running around happily socializing with $Partner, I was standing there trying not to think about holding S's cold hand in his casket. She did reach out to a mutual friend last year and said she just wanted to know if I was okay. I asked Mutual Friend to tell her I wasn't ready to talk to her yet.
I’ve been thinking about sending her mom a card for a good six months, now. I might have thought about it for a good six months further, but now I feel like, well… $Friend’s_Mom opened the door, I suppose I could nudge it with my toe a bit? I don’t know what to say…”Hi, I miss you and $Friend’s_Dad, but your daughter’s impromptu wedding broke what was left of my heart?”
If you had to stop talking to someone you formerly loved or were very close to, for complex and painful reasons, how did you deal with it in the months or years afterward? Did you ever reconcile, or did you decide that it was best to keep the door closed on that relationship for good?
We’d been best friends since we were 7 years old. We grew up together, were part of each other’s families, etc. She was like a sister to me. Her extended family meant a great deal to me, I miss them, and they miss me. $Friend's_Parents live not far from the cemetery where my mother is buried. I would like to see them sometimes when I go up there to visit my mom’s grave. But I don't want to see $Friend yet. The few people I’ve discussed this with have all mostly said, “It’s a shame to lose one of your oldest friendships, are you sure you don’t want to talk to her?” I lost two other friends after S. died, and those losses hurt, but they don’t wear on me nearly as much as this one does.
I think I miss her, but there is such a great gulf of hurt in the way that I don’t know if I can get past it. We’d grown apart somewhat in recent years, partially attributable to being adults with busy lives, but there were some festering things that we’d needed to discuss, and it just never happened.
On the ride home from their reception, I told myself, “I can talk to her again someday, when it stops hurting.” It’s been a little over two years and it hasn’t stopped hurting yet. I’m not really sure what I am asking here…it’s hard to articulate. Her wedding magnified very painful things for me during a wretched period of my life, and I don’t know how to convey that to her, let alone know how to discuss it with her. If they had chosen to do this at any other time, I would’ve been SO SO happy for them and would’ve loved to celebrate their wedding. Of course it was their decision, and they were entitled to get married any old time that they could’ve wanted. I’m sad that I couldn’t be happy for them and get to celebrate with them, because of the timing. Why did it have to be five weeks after my (yes, former) partner died? I know it’s irrational for me to feel so hurt, but there it is, and I can’t get past it yet. For most of the reception, I tried to make smalltalk and not notice that while she was running around happily socializing with $Partner, I was standing there trying not to think about holding S's cold hand in his casket. She did reach out to a mutual friend last year and said she just wanted to know if I was okay. I asked Mutual Friend to tell her I wasn't ready to talk to her yet.
I’ve been thinking about sending her mom a card for a good six months, now. I might have thought about it for a good six months further, but now I feel like, well… $Friend’s_Mom opened the door, I suppose I could nudge it with my toe a bit? I don’t know what to say…”Hi, I miss you and $Friend’s_Dad, but your daughter’s impromptu wedding broke what was left of my heart?”
If you had to stop talking to someone you formerly loved or were very close to, for complex and painful reasons, how did you deal with it in the months or years afterward? Did you ever reconcile, or did you decide that it was best to keep the door closed on that relationship for good?
I'm so sorry for your loss.
I've never been in a situation like yours, which sounds uniquely painful, but I have felt the need to sever ties. It has helped me to allow myself the time and space to reconsider in the future: so, not "never" but still "not yet" or even "not today."
You do need to sever ties with the relationships that branch from the one you are distancing yourself from, though. I think you probably feel that, too, and that's why you haven't reached out. I know you miss them, but if she is not a part of your life then you can't ask her parents to be. Maybe the idea that it doesn't have to be your final decision helps a little there, too.
You feel how you feel and you don't owe anybody anything. However, and I mean this gently, if you choose to send anyone a letter explaining why you need to walk away for awhile, I think it would be nice if it was your friend.
Take care of yourself.
posted by juliplease at 10:25 AM on December 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've never been in a situation like yours, which sounds uniquely painful, but I have felt the need to sever ties. It has helped me to allow myself the time and space to reconsider in the future: so, not "never" but still "not yet" or even "not today."
You do need to sever ties with the relationships that branch from the one you are distancing yourself from, though. I think you probably feel that, too, and that's why you haven't reached out. I know you miss them, but if she is not a part of your life then you can't ask her parents to be. Maybe the idea that it doesn't have to be your final decision helps a little there, too.
You feel how you feel and you don't owe anybody anything. However, and I mean this gently, if you choose to send anyone a letter explaining why you need to walk away for awhile, I think it would be nice if it was your friend.
Take care of yourself.
posted by juliplease at 10:25 AM on December 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
If after 2 years you're still grieving this friendship, and you have a way of getting it back, I'd recommend reaching out. You can start slowly with her parents, but I'd just jump back all the way. Put yourself back out there.
If I were your friend, I might not understand why you had chosen to shun me. I can tell that you were very hurt by her actions, but from the outside, it's hard to draw that same conclusion. Is it possible they were planning their wedding before your former partner passed away? Or is it possible that your former partner's actions spurred them to action, in a 'life is too short...' sort of move? either way, I don't see it as a scorn to you.
Try reaching out and see what comes of it.
posted by hydra77 at 10:26 AM on December 19, 2015 [41 favorites]
If I were your friend, I might not understand why you had chosen to shun me. I can tell that you were very hurt by her actions, but from the outside, it's hard to draw that same conclusion. Is it possible they were planning their wedding before your former partner passed away? Or is it possible that your former partner's actions spurred them to action, in a 'life is too short...' sort of move? either way, I don't see it as a scorn to you.
Try reaching out and see what comes of it.
posted by hydra77 at 10:26 AM on December 19, 2015 [41 favorites]
”Hi, I miss you and $Friend’s_Dad, but your daughter’s impromptu wedding broke what was left of my heart?”
I would reach out to her. I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility that the loss of your partner spurred your friend to get married because she realised on some level none of us really know how long we might have with each other and she wanted to be married to her partner right now. I'm not saying that's definitely the case, just that there are definitely lots of reasons that didn't come from a place of her wanting to hurt you. I'd actually put that one at just about the least likely one.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 10:27 AM on December 19, 2015 [10 favorites]
I would reach out to her. I wouldn't completely rule out the possibility that the loss of your partner spurred your friend to get married because she realised on some level none of us really know how long we might have with each other and she wanted to be married to her partner right now. I'm not saying that's definitely the case, just that there are definitely lots of reasons that didn't come from a place of her wanting to hurt you. I'd actually put that one at just about the least likely one.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 10:27 AM on December 19, 2015 [10 favorites]
It's hard to put my finger on what exactly you'd really like to happen here, and I think your feelings about your SO and your friend have gotten so tangled up that maybe you're not really sure either. It just all hurts, so you don't want to get near it. And that makes sense, but it's not gonna be best for your own mental health in the long run.
Did you ever visit a grief counsellor after S. died? If you didn't, it isn't too late. Don't do it because of your friend- do it because you clearly have a lot of unresolved feelings still, and you deserve to resolve them for your own peace of mind.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:29 AM on December 19, 2015 [28 favorites]
Did you ever visit a grief counsellor after S. died? If you didn't, it isn't too late. Don't do it because of your friend- do it because you clearly have a lot of unresolved feelings still, and you deserve to resolve them for your own peace of mind.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:29 AM on December 19, 2015 [28 favorites]
Why did it have to be five weeks after my (yes, former) partner died?
Part of the problem here may be that it's common for people not to understand how many feelings surround the death of a former partner. In a way, it's like you lost them twice. My father told me that a friend of ours was really upset with him because he didn't reach out to her on the death of her former husband. When something like this happened in our family, and he understood better, he was moved to reach out belatedly and apologize. So, I don't know exactly what went on between you and your friend but I'm wondering if she just acted cluelessly towards you in general, at a time when you were sad and also in a position not generally that recognized by society.
What that might mean for a potential reconciliation, I'm not sure but it might help to know it's common for people to have no clue in this situation.
posted by BibiRose at 10:30 AM on December 19, 2015 [10 favorites]
Part of the problem here may be that it's common for people not to understand how many feelings surround the death of a former partner. In a way, it's like you lost them twice. My father told me that a friend of ours was really upset with him because he didn't reach out to her on the death of her former husband. When something like this happened in our family, and he understood better, he was moved to reach out belatedly and apologize. So, I don't know exactly what went on between you and your friend but I'm wondering if she just acted cluelessly towards you in general, at a time when you were sad and also in a position not generally that recognized by society.
What that might mean for a potential reconciliation, I'm not sure but it might help to know it's common for people to have no clue in this situation.
posted by BibiRose at 10:30 AM on December 19, 2015 [10 favorites]
Best answer: Reach out. Don't let your (completely understandable) immediate emotional reaction rule the rest of your life. This person is too good a friend to let go like that. And when you do start talking again, I recommend you go into all those things you never had the time to talk about before, because how else are you going to regain what you had?
posted by languagehat at 10:31 AM on December 19, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by languagehat at 10:31 AM on December 19, 2015 [10 favorites]
I'm so sorry for your loss.
Was it a spur-of-the-moment wedding that she planned soon after your former partner passed? Or was it something that had been in the works for a long time?
I've mishandled my friends' losses and griefs in ways I was completely clueless about until I experienced similar losses and realized how I could have been there for them and wasn't. Maybe talking to a therapist would help you sort through your feelings?
posted by bunderful at 10:33 AM on December 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Was it a spur-of-the-moment wedding that she planned soon after your former partner passed? Or was it something that had been in the works for a long time?
I've mishandled my friends' losses and griefs in ways I was completely clueless about until I experienced similar losses and realized how I could have been there for them and wasn't. Maybe talking to a therapist would help you sort through your feelings?
posted by bunderful at 10:33 AM on December 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Please don't say "[your] impromptu wedding broke what was left of my heart". She didn't have her wedding to spite you. It's not about you.
I think you might find it helpful to think about what it is that you're expecting to get out of reconnecting with this person. If you're still angry and/or upset with her, that's likely going to come across. If she interprets what you say to her as being a slight against her getting married, that's probably not going to go down so well.
I think your advice to yourself was good advice. Perhaps leave meeting up until you're no longer upset, but send a generic acknowledgement, like a Christmas card. Something that she doesn't have to respond to in any particular fashion. Don't actually engage in conversation with her until you can do it with a feeling of genuine warmth. If you go in there looking for her to apologise for getting married when she did, she's not going to be receptive to that.
posted by Solomon at 10:35 AM on December 19, 2015 [58 favorites]
I think you might find it helpful to think about what it is that you're expecting to get out of reconnecting with this person. If you're still angry and/or upset with her, that's likely going to come across. If she interprets what you say to her as being a slight against her getting married, that's probably not going to go down so well.
I think your advice to yourself was good advice. Perhaps leave meeting up until you're no longer upset, but send a generic acknowledgement, like a Christmas card. Something that she doesn't have to respond to in any particular fashion. Don't actually engage in conversation with her until you can do it with a feeling of genuine warmth. If you go in there looking for her to apologise for getting married when she did, she's not going to be receptive to that.
posted by Solomon at 10:35 AM on December 19, 2015 [58 favorites]
Is there any chance that you're experiencing transference here? That is, there were at least two reasons why it might not have felt appropriate to feel angry at your partner for killing himself: you had already broke up with him and he suffered from mental illness. So now I feel like you've transferred your anger about your partner's suicide to your friend, because she "did something hurtful to you" and therefore your reaction is legitimate, even if she wasn't intentionally trying to harm you.
You also decided, at the time according to your then AskMe, to break off contact with him in part to punish him, but also because you just couldn't go on being his bulwark against the abyss. And now you're punishing yourself for that feeling of inadquacy and guilt by denying yourself a primary relationship: a friendship that dates to childhood. But by framing the rupture of your friendship as both justified and impossible to overcome, you're making yourself blameless, but you're also keeping yourself stuck in the tragedy of your ex's suicide.
All the best to you.
posted by carmicha at 10:38 AM on December 19, 2015 [124 favorites]
You also decided, at the time according to your then AskMe, to break off contact with him in part to punish him, but also because you just couldn't go on being his bulwark against the abyss. And now you're punishing yourself for that feeling of inadquacy and guilt by denying yourself a primary relationship: a friendship that dates to childhood. But by framing the rupture of your friendship as both justified and impossible to overcome, you're making yourself blameless, but you're also keeping yourself stuck in the tragedy of your ex's suicide.
All the best to you.
posted by carmicha at 10:38 AM on December 19, 2015 [124 favorites]
I lost my best friend in a way kind of similar to this. Not a wedding timing issue, but an extremely hurtful de-prioritization of our friendship. It came to a head when I had a kid and suffered a brutal round of PPD exacerbated by her not calling to acknowledge the birth. We lost touch for years.
And in the end, years later, I did reach back out. I still missed her, but I was used to her not being part of my life anymore, and I reached out without expectation for apology* or for it to "go anywhere." And... she was very glad, and did what she could do be a friend again. She had gotten much too busy with All The Things to be the kind of friends we'd been in the past; but she does what she can, and I can say we are friends now, and my life is better for it. Our children are friends too, which delights me.
My point is - yes, it is ok to reach out, you aren't betraying your former partner or your grief about that loss by doing so. And I think you should do it. The holidays is a great "excuse." But before you do, you need to let go of the anger about her wedding timing. She did not do that "to you", although it felt that way. You were in great pain, and you associate that pain with her wedding now (kind of the way I associated my PPD with my friend.) It might help to do some sort of ritual to let go of that. And then call her and say "I miss you, can we hang out." Good luck.
*which is not to say I wouldn't have welcomed it; but I didn't expect it, and I didn't get it, and that's ok.
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:51 AM on December 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
And in the end, years later, I did reach back out. I still missed her, but I was used to her not being part of my life anymore, and I reached out without expectation for apology* or for it to "go anywhere." And... she was very glad, and did what she could do be a friend again. She had gotten much too busy with All The Things to be the kind of friends we'd been in the past; but she does what she can, and I can say we are friends now, and my life is better for it. Our children are friends too, which delights me.
My point is - yes, it is ok to reach out, you aren't betraying your former partner or your grief about that loss by doing so. And I think you should do it. The holidays is a great "excuse." But before you do, you need to let go of the anger about her wedding timing. She did not do that "to you", although it felt that way. You were in great pain, and you associate that pain with her wedding now (kind of the way I associated my PPD with my friend.) It might help to do some sort of ritual to let go of that. And then call her and say "I miss you, can we hang out." Good luck.
*which is not to say I wouldn't have welcomed it; but I didn't expect it, and I didn't get it, and that's ok.
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:51 AM on December 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
Please don't say "[your] impromptu wedding broke what was left of my heart". She didn't have her wedding to spite you. It's not about you.
This.
A few years back, I found out on my birthday that a former co-worker of mine had committed suicide over the weekend. I was shocked at how upset I was, and I was equally shocked at how much the timing hurt me -- I hadn't planned to do anything that night except housework and talking to random relatives, but, instead of blocking off any time for self-care, I either had to act cheerful or explain the situation to people who couldn't understand that the event didn't have anything to do with me.
But it wasn't W's fault that I found out on my birthday, and it wasn't my relatives' faults that I neither wanted to talk to them nor explain why I didn't want to talk. It wasn't anyone's fault, really -- the timing just happened.
The same goes here. Maybe your friend had a reason for her impromptu wedding. Maybe she didn't. The timing was shitty, and it meant that you had to deal with a bunch of conflicting emotions at once, but I'm positive she didn't intend it to hurt you.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 10:55 AM on December 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
This.
A few years back, I found out on my birthday that a former co-worker of mine had committed suicide over the weekend. I was shocked at how upset I was, and I was equally shocked at how much the timing hurt me -- I hadn't planned to do anything that night except housework and talking to random relatives, but, instead of blocking off any time for self-care, I either had to act cheerful or explain the situation to people who couldn't understand that the event didn't have anything to do with me.
But it wasn't W's fault that I found out on my birthday, and it wasn't my relatives' faults that I neither wanted to talk to them nor explain why I didn't want to talk. It wasn't anyone's fault, really -- the timing just happened.
The same goes here. Maybe your friend had a reason for her impromptu wedding. Maybe she didn't. The timing was shitty, and it meant that you had to deal with a bunch of conflicting emotions at once, but I'm positive she didn't intend it to hurt you.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 10:55 AM on December 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
Best answer: You are making your interpretation of your ex partner's suicide your living (now ex) best friend's fault. Your (now ex) best friend was not involved with your ex partner's choices or actions. If you want to live without this group of people in your life, continue to shun them for something tragic they are not related to in any way.
Your ex partner did something hurtful, and you decided to carry the misery forward for two years? This does not make anything better in the world.
You could have easily seen your friend's wedding as an affirmation of love despite your grief, as an antidote to your grief.
It sounds like some very nice people are lovingly holding a space for you. Join them when you are ready.
posted by jbenben at 11:02 AM on December 19, 2015 [51 favorites]
Your ex partner did something hurtful, and you decided to carry the misery forward for two years? This does not make anything better in the world.
You could have easily seen your friend's wedding as an affirmation of love despite your grief, as an antidote to your grief.
It sounds like some very nice people are lovingly holding a space for you. Join them when you are ready.
posted by jbenben at 11:02 AM on December 19, 2015 [51 favorites]
Best answer: I am very sorry for your loss. To me it sounds like you are jealous and envious of your friend for being able to wed their partner and that you are subsequently resentful of her and her ability to carry on when you are still grieving.
I think you know that's not fair. Maybe in the weeks after your partner's passing, your friend and her partner realized how short life is and that they wanted to commit to each other asap. Resenting her for that only prolongs the hurt you already feel and keeps you from deepening a friendship you obviously treasure.
You can't keep punishing your friend for something she didn't do out of spite or cruelty. She married her partner because she loves them enough to do so, not because she loves you or the memory of your beloved partner less.
posted by Hermione Granger at 11:03 AM on December 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
I think you know that's not fair. Maybe in the weeks after your partner's passing, your friend and her partner realized how short life is and that they wanted to commit to each other asap. Resenting her for that only prolongs the hurt you already feel and keeps you from deepening a friendship you obviously treasure.
You can't keep punishing your friend for something she didn't do out of spite or cruelty. She married her partner because she loves them enough to do so, not because she loves you or the memory of your beloved partner less.
posted by Hermione Granger at 11:03 AM on December 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
Best answer: I'm very sorry for your loss. But I'm also sorry for your friend -- she lost her best friend, and probably still does not fully understand why you are so angry with her. That kind of thing can be exceptionally scarring. After all, it sounds like she would have understood had you not felt up to attending her wedding. But you did attend. And then you cut her off.
Re: your question -- I have had some reconciliations with lost friendships in the past, and a big part of that has been both parties admitting to culpability, as well as both parties admitting pain. Are you ready to do that? And to acknowledge that she has a valid reason to be hurt?
If you do choose to reach out, I think you will likely need to apologize for the way you abandoned her with no clear explanation. I imagine she may have some valid feelings of anger towards you. If you can hear her out, and understand her POV, I think you will likely be able to set this aside and move forward as friends.
I think a grief counselor sounds like a good idea regardless. It sounds as if you have been cutting yourself off from sources of love and support -- and right now, it sounds like you need both.
posted by egeanin at 11:15 AM on December 19, 2015 [18 favorites]
Re: your question -- I have had some reconciliations with lost friendships in the past, and a big part of that has been both parties admitting to culpability, as well as both parties admitting pain. Are you ready to do that? And to acknowledge that she has a valid reason to be hurt?
If you do choose to reach out, I think you will likely need to apologize for the way you abandoned her with no clear explanation. I imagine she may have some valid feelings of anger towards you. If you can hear her out, and understand her POV, I think you will likely be able to set this aside and move forward as friends.
I think a grief counselor sounds like a good idea regardless. It sounds as if you have been cutting yourself off from sources of love and support -- and right now, it sounds like you need both.
posted by egeanin at 11:15 AM on December 19, 2015 [18 favorites]
Best answer: I used to do this to people in my life. It directly correlated to my own inability to process my own feelings, particularly feelings of shame and grief.
Anger and hurt towards other people is infinitely easier on the ego than anger and hurt towards yourself.
Write your friend a letter and put it inside a nice card. Be honest with her about how hurt you were by your ex's suicide, how powerless you felt to have helped him, and how responsible you feel for his death. Then tell her you're sorry you blamed her as you did, that you care about her and want to mend fences, and that you hope she can forgive you, that you didn't mean to diminish her happiness. It's just that you were in so much pain it was hard for you to know what to do.
Then send her mother a heartfelt but simple holiday card in return for what she sent you.
Then let it lie. Your friend would have good cause to be wary of starting things up with you but I think she might totally understand and forgive you if you're big enough to accept responsibility for your mistake.
Good luck. I'm so sorry for the losses in your life and hope you find peace.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 11:18 AM on December 19, 2015 [15 favorites]
Anger and hurt towards other people is infinitely easier on the ego than anger and hurt towards yourself.
Write your friend a letter and put it inside a nice card. Be honest with her about how hurt you were by your ex's suicide, how powerless you felt to have helped him, and how responsible you feel for his death. Then tell her you're sorry you blamed her as you did, that you care about her and want to mend fences, and that you hope she can forgive you, that you didn't mean to diminish her happiness. It's just that you were in so much pain it was hard for you to know what to do.
Then send her mother a heartfelt but simple holiday card in return for what she sent you.
Then let it lie. Your friend would have good cause to be wary of starting things up with you but I think she might totally understand and forgive you if you're big enough to accept responsibility for your mistake.
Good luck. I'm so sorry for the losses in your life and hope you find peace.
posted by TryTheTilapia at 11:18 AM on December 19, 2015 [15 favorites]
Best answer: I'm so sorry to hear about the loss of your partner. I lost a loved one to suicide almost exactly a year ago, and I know how hard and complicated feelings can be afterward; I know it's not the same and I don't mean to compare it but I can relate from where I am so here are some thoughts. I've come to realize that suicide is an event that brings up a lot of sadness but a surprisingly amount of anger, too: at ourselves and at other loved ones, perhaps of feeling helpless over a situation that cannot be changed. Sometimes that anger helps us make changes for the better in our own lives by cutting out toxic people or reprioritizing our loved ones. However, sometimes we're also angry at the wrong people due to the mere fact that they are close to us and still around so we can.
I see your old best friend reacting to the loss of your partner -- surely someone she loved, too, as a friend -- as a push to make her our relationship with a loved one closer in a way she could. She probably invited you because, while it was surely a hard thing to do, she did not want to exclude you because THAT would have been an affront. How would you have felt if the tables had been turned and you were in her shoes? I think you're being grounded and honest to both recognize that it's unfair of you to have this anger towards her but also that it's a lingering feeling you can't shake. It's completely and wholy unfair of you to be angry at her for this. However, a feeling is what it is but it's something you can work through, and probably best with some outside help. A support group for those who have lost loved ones through suicide would be the ideal setting to do so: they understand how you feel and you can make statements like this without feeling judged or silly. They will get you and they will offer you support and love and help shed light on the deeper feelings. A good grief counselor can, too, but the group might help you feel less alone in your sadness.
I would guess that your friend senses your anger and is giving you space out of love and caring, although she'd likely to be ready to reach back out if and when you'd ever want to get in touch again. As for what to do about the friendship, I think the card is a nice gesture on the part of her mom. Sending a simple card back saying that you appreciate her gesture, that you're having a hard time still and want your distance but that you care and hope she's doing well. (Because it's true, right?) However, you don't have to either. I think you're also wise to recognize that it's probably not time to reach out to your friend yet. I disagree with your other friends, however well meaning, who are unintentionally scolding you for feeling the way you are right now. You know you, and you know your friend: you recognize these feelings aren't nice and not something you'd want to put on her (yet.) Perhaps with time you'll work through your feelings and will want to reach out to continue that friendship. Perhaps you will not, and that's OK, too. I have some former best friends who I wish nothing but the best to but also do not want to resume a friendship with: sometimes it was due to misunderstanding and sometimes it was due to external factors but it ultimately is what it is. Again, I'm sorry for your losses here and wish you the best with your continued journey. The holidays can be full of joy but, really, they are such a difficult time for those of us with loss and struggles, so I hope your end-of-December goes by smoothly as possible with some little joys of joy amongst the sadness, too.
posted by smorgasbord at 11:32 AM on December 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
I see your old best friend reacting to the loss of your partner -- surely someone she loved, too, as a friend -- as a push to make her our relationship with a loved one closer in a way she could. She probably invited you because, while it was surely a hard thing to do, she did not want to exclude you because THAT would have been an affront. How would you have felt if the tables had been turned and you were in her shoes? I think you're being grounded and honest to both recognize that it's unfair of you to have this anger towards her but also that it's a lingering feeling you can't shake. It's completely and wholy unfair of you to be angry at her for this. However, a feeling is what it is but it's something you can work through, and probably best with some outside help. A support group for those who have lost loved ones through suicide would be the ideal setting to do so: they understand how you feel and you can make statements like this without feeling judged or silly. They will get you and they will offer you support and love and help shed light on the deeper feelings. A good grief counselor can, too, but the group might help you feel less alone in your sadness.
I would guess that your friend senses your anger and is giving you space out of love and caring, although she'd likely to be ready to reach back out if and when you'd ever want to get in touch again. As for what to do about the friendship, I think the card is a nice gesture on the part of her mom. Sending a simple card back saying that you appreciate her gesture, that you're having a hard time still and want your distance but that you care and hope she's doing well. (Because it's true, right?) However, you don't have to either. I think you're also wise to recognize that it's probably not time to reach out to your friend yet. I disagree with your other friends, however well meaning, who are unintentionally scolding you for feeling the way you are right now. You know you, and you know your friend: you recognize these feelings aren't nice and not something you'd want to put on her (yet.) Perhaps with time you'll work through your feelings and will want to reach out to continue that friendship. Perhaps you will not, and that's OK, too. I have some former best friends who I wish nothing but the best to but also do not want to resume a friendship with: sometimes it was due to misunderstanding and sometimes it was due to external factors but it ultimately is what it is. Again, I'm sorry for your losses here and wish you the best with your continued journey. The holidays can be full of joy but, really, they are such a difficult time for those of us with loss and struggles, so I hope your end-of-December goes by smoothly as possible with some little joys of joy amongst the sadness, too.
posted by smorgasbord at 11:32 AM on December 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
Best answer: continuing to be mad at your friend is a way to continue to feel the worst parts of grief for your ex-partner. you probably think you don't want to feel bad, but there also probably some part of you that feels like you deserve to feel bad - like if you stop feeling bad you won't be honoring your former partner. it doesn't have to be like this. your grief will be with you forever, but it can become a tender part of you instead of a big gaping hole of awful. you need to work on separating the pain over your former partner from whatever was happening with your friend before your former partner's death. the reception is a red herring that you're using as an excuse.
i'm sorry for your loss(es) and wish you peace.
posted by nadawi at 11:36 AM on December 19, 2015 [12 favorites]
i'm sorry for your loss(es) and wish you peace.
posted by nadawi at 11:36 AM on December 19, 2015 [12 favorites]
...also, maybe this is off base, but did you discuss your relationship with your friend? did your friend maybe suggest to break up with your former partner? are you holding your friend in some way responsible for the guilt you feel about how that relationship ended? grief is a long road and i am in no way telling you to get over it, but i am gently suggesting there are ways to move forward while still honoring the grief, but you have to get real honest with yourself. this might be helped by seeing a counselor specifically trained with grief/survivors of suicide.
posted by nadawi at 11:39 AM on December 19, 2015
posted by nadawi at 11:39 AM on December 19, 2015
There are so many smart things that could be thought, said, considered, weighed, advised. But I suggest going dumb on issues like this, and mindlessly, bluntly, always favor reconciliation. Always. Even if you're ambivalent.
Another way of looking at it: if you can even consider reconciling (as you can, or you wouldn't have posted this), always do it. Same for impulses toward kindness, generosity, love, encouragement, or any other good thing.
Holy crap, that was the hippy-est thing ever to come out of my keyboard. But it's true. Don't place limitations on positive impulses. If you have to err, this is the best side to err on always.
If it blows up in your face, it's not on you. You can maintain your lightness. But if you choose to favor your closed, negative, grudging, fearful, sour impulses, and that blows up in your face, well, that's very much on you, and you'll bear the weight.
posted by Quisp Lover at 11:47 AM on December 19, 2015 [16 favorites]
Another way of looking at it: if you can even consider reconciling (as you can, or you wouldn't have posted this), always do it. Same for impulses toward kindness, generosity, love, encouragement, or any other good thing.
Holy crap, that was the hippy-est thing ever to come out of my keyboard. But it's true. Don't place limitations on positive impulses. If you have to err, this is the best side to err on always.
If it blows up in your face, it's not on you. You can maintain your lightness. But if you choose to favor your closed, negative, grudging, fearful, sour impulses, and that blows up in your face, well, that's very much on you, and you'll bear the weight.
posted by Quisp Lover at 11:47 AM on December 19, 2015 [16 favorites]
Best answer: This is a difficult situation for you, and I hope you can work through your feelings and reconcile yourself with your friend and her family who it seems miss you. I am going to add my voice to the chorus that it is unfair to hold your friend's wedding against her. It does not seem she did it to hurt you or spite you. As someone said above, your friend's wedding was not about you, not about your ex-partner.
My grandmother died about 12 weeks before my wedding. Several of my cousins chose to travel and attend the funeral but not my wedding (being unable to manage both). My wedding was the last weekend another cousin's husband was healthy (he went into the hospital unexpectedly the next week and died about six months later). Another cousin's husband had just broken up with her. I'm sure, therefore, that my wedding is a painful memory for a number of my friends and family. It was the first family gathering after my grandmother's death; it was the last time any one of us saw my cousin's husband healthy and well. I knew a number of people were not there because it was too close to Nonnie's funeral.
The first wedding I went to after my own divorce (about a year later and for people I neither knew nor cared about--I was someone's date) was terribly upsetting to me for months. I sobbed for about an hour after my best friend's baby was born because it was shortly after I learned I can't be pregnant.
All of us had to put aside our grief to celebrate someone else's joy. And if we had to talk about our rage or our feelings that it was unfair to have to be happy at a time that was hurtful to us, we did not lay that at the feet of the person whose joy hurt us.
Life does not give us space to segment our emotions. It does not properly space our grief and our celebrations. It's okay that your friend's wedding magnified your grief. It is not okay for you to blame her for that. If you truly want to reconcile with her and her family and keep that lifelong strong relationship alive, you need to release your friend from your pain. Talk to a therapist; to another friend; to a journal. Do a cleansing ceremony. Forgive your friend for going on with her life while yours felt unbearable. That's all on you.
You should talk to her about your pain but I agree with "Please don't say "[your] impromptu wedding broke what was left of my heart". She didn't have her wedding to spite you. " If you really must acknowledge that the timing exacerbated your grief, you still must not blame her for it. That is not only unfair, it is not helpful. This is when the whole "use I Statements" comes in really handy.
posted by crush-onastick at 11:57 AM on December 19, 2015 [38 favorites]
My grandmother died about 12 weeks before my wedding. Several of my cousins chose to travel and attend the funeral but not my wedding (being unable to manage both). My wedding was the last weekend another cousin's husband was healthy (he went into the hospital unexpectedly the next week and died about six months later). Another cousin's husband had just broken up with her. I'm sure, therefore, that my wedding is a painful memory for a number of my friends and family. It was the first family gathering after my grandmother's death; it was the last time any one of us saw my cousin's husband healthy and well. I knew a number of people were not there because it was too close to Nonnie's funeral.
The first wedding I went to after my own divorce (about a year later and for people I neither knew nor cared about--I was someone's date) was terribly upsetting to me for months. I sobbed for about an hour after my best friend's baby was born because it was shortly after I learned I can't be pregnant.
All of us had to put aside our grief to celebrate someone else's joy. And if we had to talk about our rage or our feelings that it was unfair to have to be happy at a time that was hurtful to us, we did not lay that at the feet of the person whose joy hurt us.
Life does not give us space to segment our emotions. It does not properly space our grief and our celebrations. It's okay that your friend's wedding magnified your grief. It is not okay for you to blame her for that. If you truly want to reconcile with her and her family and keep that lifelong strong relationship alive, you need to release your friend from your pain. Talk to a therapist; to another friend; to a journal. Do a cleansing ceremony. Forgive your friend for going on with her life while yours felt unbearable. That's all on you.
You should talk to her about your pain but I agree with "Please don't say "[your] impromptu wedding broke what was left of my heart". She didn't have her wedding to spite you. " If you really must acknowledge that the timing exacerbated your grief, you still must not blame her for it. That is not only unfair, it is not helpful. This is when the whole "use I Statements" comes in really handy.
posted by crush-onastick at 11:57 AM on December 19, 2015 [38 favorites]
Wow. Let this go. Friends wedding was hard for you. Holding the timing of her wedding against her is totally irrational to begin with. It was your ex partner and a month removed. You can irrationally be hurt by it but it is way way way past time to rationally let it go. Now you've lost out on close friends for years. Today is the day to move past it as best you can. See a councelor if you can't let this go.
posted by Kalmya at 11:59 AM on December 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Kalmya at 11:59 AM on December 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for the responses. I marked the ones I felt were most helpful and have marked the question as resolved.
posted by cardinality at 12:03 PM on December 19, 2015
posted by cardinality at 12:03 PM on December 19, 2015
One of the things that jumps out at me is that you spent a lot of your relationship caring for and prioritizing your partner, and because of his mental illness he couldn't reciprocate. You deserve to feel loved and cared for, too. And I'd guess that perhaps right after you lost him, you were feeling as un-cared-for as you could possibly feel. In that context, a friend's wedding would do two things: flaunt that friend's feeling of being loved while you were feeling the exact opposite, and paint your friend as another person who should have considered your feelings but didn't.
I think I'd be hurt and resentful, too, if I lost a partner and a close friend had a wedding so soon afterwards. It'd feel a bit like ignoring my pain, or rubbing her good fortune in my face. However, she didn't do it to hurt you. I don't know why she chose the timing she did, but I do know that hurting your heart was not the reason. I have a feeling she just didn't know and couldn't have known how much it would hurt you.
You can forgive and still hurt. You can know that someone didn't intend to break your heart but still be heartbroken. The pain won't go away immediately, but it will fade. I recommend that you reconcile, but dip your toes in very slowly as you work on separating your grief from your friend. It might be difficult at first, and painful feelings may rush to the front of your mind before you know where they're from or what to do with them. Regular therapy can help a lot; if you aren't yet seeing a therapist you should consider it.
I'm sorry for your loss and for the rift in your friendship.
posted by Metroid Baby at 12:41 PM on December 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
I think I'd be hurt and resentful, too, if I lost a partner and a close friend had a wedding so soon afterwards. It'd feel a bit like ignoring my pain, or rubbing her good fortune in my face. However, she didn't do it to hurt you. I don't know why she chose the timing she did, but I do know that hurting your heart was not the reason. I have a feeling she just didn't know and couldn't have known how much it would hurt you.
You can forgive and still hurt. You can know that someone didn't intend to break your heart but still be heartbroken. The pain won't go away immediately, but it will fade. I recommend that you reconcile, but dip your toes in very slowly as you work on separating your grief from your friend. It might be difficult at first, and painful feelings may rush to the front of your mind before you know where they're from or what to do with them. Regular therapy can help a lot; if you aren't yet seeing a therapist you should consider it.
I'm sorry for your loss and for the rift in your friendship.
posted by Metroid Baby at 12:41 PM on December 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
I'm so sorry for your loss. Losing a partner or ex can be so painful, and suicide is terrible and can particularly bring out complicated feelings.
Her wedding magnified very painful things for me during a wretched period of my life, and I don’t know how to convey that to her, let alone know how to discuss it with her
I'm going to suggest something that might be hard to hear, almost as a thought experiment. What if part of what you did was apologize or express sorrow for how she must've felt about the fact that you needed to withdraw? I almost feel like you should wait to talk to her until you've found a place in your heart that can understand that it must have been incredibly painful for her to lose you as a friend, and that she didn't "deserve" to be abandoned (not that life or emotions are fair) because her life was bringing her joy, even though it coincided with and amplified your pain. In an ideal world, a friendship would be large enough to hold both your grief and her joy. I can understand that it simply wasn't possible for you at that time, and I've been in positions where I had painful feelings that eclipsed all else, so I understand. But I'd try to approach the conversation with room in your heart to understand that at the same time as you were feeling grief that you wanted her support with, she was also going through a momentous life event that she wanted your friendship through, and that it was probably painful for her that this wasn't possible.
posted by salvia at 4:20 PM on December 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
Her wedding magnified very painful things for me during a wretched period of my life, and I don’t know how to convey that to her, let alone know how to discuss it with her
I'm going to suggest something that might be hard to hear, almost as a thought experiment. What if part of what you did was apologize or express sorrow for how she must've felt about the fact that you needed to withdraw? I almost feel like you should wait to talk to her until you've found a place in your heart that can understand that it must have been incredibly painful for her to lose you as a friend, and that she didn't "deserve" to be abandoned (not that life or emotions are fair) because her life was bringing her joy, even though it coincided with and amplified your pain. In an ideal world, a friendship would be large enough to hold both your grief and her joy. I can understand that it simply wasn't possible for you at that time, and I've been in positions where I had painful feelings that eclipsed all else, so I understand. But I'd try to approach the conversation with room in your heart to understand that at the same time as you were feeling grief that you wanted her support with, she was also going through a momentous life event that she wanted your friendship through, and that it was probably painful for her that this wasn't possible.
posted by salvia at 4:20 PM on December 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
I have a bit of a different perspective. If this was really a great friend, she should have known that you were hurting and how deeply. If her and her partner were affected by the death into getting married as some people have suggested they could have decided they wanted to get married and still waited. Her decision to do this at this time is incredibly thoughtless (unless of course it was planned in advance of your ex partners death which was not the understanding I took from your letter). Saying that, having recently lost someone from my family, people really don't seem to get what an emotional rollercoaster it can be unless they have been through something similar. I got very kind and thoughtful notes from people I hadn't seen in several years and no understanding from people who I had whole heartedly expected to be there for me. This was incredibly painful and the worse thing is they just don't seem to get it. If your friend happens to read this, an apology even for her lack of understanding, if not exactly for getting married at that time, would go along way. But perhaps she won't really understand until she loses someone close herself. Work on healing yourself and the rest will fall into place in time. I would respond to the mother's letter and say you too think of them. Even if your friend is not writing you the letter she should, this is not the fault of her mother who seems to care for you greatly. Take care.
posted by mossy_george at 7:09 PM on December 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by mossy_george at 7:09 PM on December 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm very sorry for your loss. And I think you should reach out to your friend right away.
I am estranged from my best friend, a person who was my closest confident and partner-in-crime from age 10 to about age 25. To this day, I really don't know what I did - so I imagine I am like your friend in this situation. She significantly changed her lifestyle, to a way of life which was awkward for me to be authentically supportive about, but I'm not sure specifically what I did to hurt her. There was certainly no intent to hurt. I have a feeling I was probably insensitive to her at a similarly difficult time in her life. I did not mean to be, but at 25, I had very little to go on in understanding the depths of struggle people face when they have serious hardship and loss. I am sure I behaved in ways that I thought were sympathetic, but what did I know about sympathy? I hadn't had anything like that to deal with, ever. Is there a chance there was that sort of asymmetry there? Do you really think so little of your friend that you think she would want to hurt you on purpose?
It's now been more than 20 years since I've seen my friend. This may be hard to believe, but I dream of her often, at least once a month. I will never forget her. I would be thrilled to mend ties, even if our friendship could never be what it was. It is the 25-year-long shoe hanging in my life. It feels like I've lost part of myself. I've written to her family and they've written back, but clearly she doesn't want to be in touch, which renews the hurt.
There are so few people in life that will care about you this way, and that you will care about. What are you waiting for? Here you are telling us why it hurt and why it's hard to understand. Why don't you tell her? Wouldn't it feel good to have her to talk to again? These relationships aren't ones to throw away. In my opinion, you are being irrational - you don't seem to have any idea what motivated the timing of their wedding, since you gave her no opportunity to talk to you about it. Do you think it's just possible that watching you go through a partner's death may have motivated the two of them to recognize that life is short and chances are few and we need to make commitments while we can? I don't know their motivations, but neither do you. Please, give her a chance.
You had no choice about having to grieve for your lost partner. You do have a choice not to carry a similar grief over the loss of your best friend.
posted by Miko at 7:54 PM on December 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
I am estranged from my best friend, a person who was my closest confident and partner-in-crime from age 10 to about age 25. To this day, I really don't know what I did - so I imagine I am like your friend in this situation. She significantly changed her lifestyle, to a way of life which was awkward for me to be authentically supportive about, but I'm not sure specifically what I did to hurt her. There was certainly no intent to hurt. I have a feeling I was probably insensitive to her at a similarly difficult time in her life. I did not mean to be, but at 25, I had very little to go on in understanding the depths of struggle people face when they have serious hardship and loss. I am sure I behaved in ways that I thought were sympathetic, but what did I know about sympathy? I hadn't had anything like that to deal with, ever. Is there a chance there was that sort of asymmetry there? Do you really think so little of your friend that you think she would want to hurt you on purpose?
It's now been more than 20 years since I've seen my friend. This may be hard to believe, but I dream of her often, at least once a month. I will never forget her. I would be thrilled to mend ties, even if our friendship could never be what it was. It is the 25-year-long shoe hanging in my life. It feels like I've lost part of myself. I've written to her family and they've written back, but clearly she doesn't want to be in touch, which renews the hurt.
There are so few people in life that will care about you this way, and that you will care about. What are you waiting for? Here you are telling us why it hurt and why it's hard to understand. Why don't you tell her? Wouldn't it feel good to have her to talk to again? These relationships aren't ones to throw away. In my opinion, you are being irrational - you don't seem to have any idea what motivated the timing of their wedding, since you gave her no opportunity to talk to you about it. Do you think it's just possible that watching you go through a partner's death may have motivated the two of them to recognize that life is short and chances are few and we need to make commitments while we can? I don't know their motivations, but neither do you. Please, give her a chance.
You had no choice about having to grieve for your lost partner. You do have a choice not to carry a similar grief over the loss of your best friend.
posted by Miko at 7:54 PM on December 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
I've been in a similar situation, except I was more in the position of your friend. My best friend since nursery school (who was my maid of honor) stopped wanting to spend time with me or talk to me. She's never explained exactly why, but I believe it is because I remind her of something that her former partner did to hurt her. Also I've now been happily married for years and have kids, and I think she resents that, although again she's never said so.
Not a day goes by that I don't think longingly of what our friendship used to be. I doubt she has any idea how much it's torn me up over the years to have lost her friendship. Every time I know that she's come back to visit my hometown (where I still live) but didn't visit me, it hurts me again, like sick to my stomach hurts. I'm not sure if your impression of your friend is that she's blithely going about her life with her happy marriage and doesn't miss you, but I bet that's far from the truth. For me it was just as bad as my worst breakup. I had nightmares for probably 5 years where I would wake up in tears. I can't believe I am admitting this, but I would cry when I would hear sad songs on the radio that made me think of her, like "Who Knew" or "When You're Dreaming With A Broken Heart" and I got maudlin about seeing things that we used to have inside jokes about or have some association with in our friendship.
After something like 4 years, she called me out of the blue, apologized, said that she missed me and wanted to go back to the way things were, that she had gone through therapy and had a new lease on life and so on. I was so excited to have my friend back. I started sending her emails and trying to call her occasionally, trying to set up get togethers when she was in town, sending Christmas cards and things. I imagined having a confidante back with whom I could share everything, who understood me better than I understood myself and who I had so many shared memories with. It turned out she just seemed to want to resolve the conflict that I represented so that she could be my Facebook friend again and publicly be seen to be liking my statuses and whatnot. She's never called me since, she's never emailed, and she sends Christmas cards to my parents but not to me (as if she didn't know how it would feel for me to see her card on my parents fridge and have my mom say "oh, she didn't send you one too?") Now I just feel like maybe I should have from the beginning - angry at her for taking something out on me that isn't my fault at all. She threw away 20 years of great friendship that was invaluable to me and I'll never understand why. So, based on my experience I'd say please do not send anything to her mother and don't bother getting in touch with her again if all you want is a superficial 'friendship' or just to 'smooth things over'. Again, it's like a breakup - going no contact would have been easier than having to deal with the roller coaster and anger of having her be "back" but not really.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 8:55 PM on December 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
Not a day goes by that I don't think longingly of what our friendship used to be. I doubt she has any idea how much it's torn me up over the years to have lost her friendship. Every time I know that she's come back to visit my hometown (where I still live) but didn't visit me, it hurts me again, like sick to my stomach hurts. I'm not sure if your impression of your friend is that she's blithely going about her life with her happy marriage and doesn't miss you, but I bet that's far from the truth. For me it was just as bad as my worst breakup. I had nightmares for probably 5 years where I would wake up in tears. I can't believe I am admitting this, but I would cry when I would hear sad songs on the radio that made me think of her, like "Who Knew" or "When You're Dreaming With A Broken Heart" and I got maudlin about seeing things that we used to have inside jokes about or have some association with in our friendship.
After something like 4 years, she called me out of the blue, apologized, said that she missed me and wanted to go back to the way things were, that she had gone through therapy and had a new lease on life and so on. I was so excited to have my friend back. I started sending her emails and trying to call her occasionally, trying to set up get togethers when she was in town, sending Christmas cards and things. I imagined having a confidante back with whom I could share everything, who understood me better than I understood myself and who I had so many shared memories with. It turned out she just seemed to want to resolve the conflict that I represented so that she could be my Facebook friend again and publicly be seen to be liking my statuses and whatnot. She's never called me since, she's never emailed, and she sends Christmas cards to my parents but not to me (as if she didn't know how it would feel for me to see her card on my parents fridge and have my mom say "oh, she didn't send you one too?") Now I just feel like maybe I should have from the beginning - angry at her for taking something out on me that isn't my fault at all. She threw away 20 years of great friendship that was invaluable to me and I'll never understand why. So, based on my experience I'd say please do not send anything to her mother and don't bother getting in touch with her again if all you want is a superficial 'friendship' or just to 'smooth things over'. Again, it's like a breakup - going no contact would have been easier than having to deal with the roller coaster and anger of having her be "back" but not really.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 8:55 PM on December 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
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This thread is closed to new comments.
These people love you.
Your friend did not time her wedding to hurt you.
There are times we all need to be alone but we work better when surrounded with love and support. You're lucky to have them; send them some holiday wishes and let them back in, if just a little bit.
Choose love!
posted by littlewater at 10:21 AM on December 19, 2015 [93 favorites]