How to find a balance with a (maybe?) flirty partner?
October 9, 2015 9:22 AM Subscribe
My husband and I have different boundaries when it comes to what we consider to be 'kind of cheating' behaviour and I'm struggling to deal with it. My current plan is based on a tit-for-tat approach, but that seems pretty childish. What is a better way to deal with this without becoming a crazy jealousy monster?
My lovely husband and I have been together for 10 years. We come from very different backgrounds: me from an American, very religious family, him from a much more liberal European culture. I'm no longer religious, but was raised being taught that having sex before marriage is cheating on your future spouse. I don't believe this and would categorise my general approach to sex as pretty liberal. However, emotionally, I still have some lingering hang ups about what I'm comfortable with and these are very different from what he considers acceptable.
For instance, a while ago, he went to an event with many friends and afterwards went dancing with a female friend. He was very drunk and is pretty sure he kissed her, though he says he thinks it was on her forehead and he assures me it wasn't sexual, just a 'Wah! we're out dancing and having a good time!' I didn't go out with them because I was pregnant and feeling pretty awful, which perhaps adds an extra layer of jealousy. His culture is pretty kissy, and he doesn't think this is a big deal, especially since he would never sleep with anyone besides me.
He has lots of female friends, including ex-girlfriends, and it's very important to him to stay in touch with them. He has one friend in particular with that he shares a lot of emotional stuff with and also occasionally they discuss sex and their respective sex lives. I'm pretty sure she also gives him advice on our marriage.
These are just a few examples and it isn't so much the specific incidents, but more of the issue that I am much more conservative about this. I would probably never go dancing alone with a guy friend - that would seem strange. I also don't have many close male friends and I can't imagine discussing intimate sexual things with them. I think I would feel like I was getting too close to a line.
We've been together for quite a long time, and we've tried to discuss individual things and come to compromises, but it feels like there are always new and unexpected incidents that come up that haven't been covered ('You have old naked pictures of your ex-girlfriends still? Not ok!'). He feels like there are ticking time bombs everywhere and that some of my requests are asking too much. I feel tired of being upset by new 'crimes'.
For what it's worth, we currently live in his home country, and my friends here as well as my therapist seem to think that I should relax a bit. So long as he isn't sleeping around, I shouldn't be worried. As for me, I feel unhappy with the status quo - part of me feels like he should be more thoughtful and considerate of my feelings. Part of me thinks I should work on my self esteem and allow both of us a little more freedom.
My current approach has been to do more 'daring' things myself. For instance, a male colleague and I have started grabbing lunch together a couple of times a month. This is something I wouldn't do previously, since we get along well and he's a little flirty and I would feel guilty encouraging such a relationship, even if it was only friendship. But we have a good time, and I feel less jealous when my husband spends alone time with other women.
However, I'm a little worried that this might be an unhealthy approach overall, where I end up having to compete with my husband ('Fine! I'm going dancing tomorrow! I wonder who I will kiss?!') and that it will ultimately hurt our (otherwise good, supportive, enjoyable) relationship and/or make me unhappy.
So, if you have a similar mismatch of what you consider to be 'boundary' behaviour, how did you deal? What helped?
My lovely husband and I have been together for 10 years. We come from very different backgrounds: me from an American, very religious family, him from a much more liberal European culture. I'm no longer religious, but was raised being taught that having sex before marriage is cheating on your future spouse. I don't believe this and would categorise my general approach to sex as pretty liberal. However, emotionally, I still have some lingering hang ups about what I'm comfortable with and these are very different from what he considers acceptable.
For instance, a while ago, he went to an event with many friends and afterwards went dancing with a female friend. He was very drunk and is pretty sure he kissed her, though he says he thinks it was on her forehead and he assures me it wasn't sexual, just a 'Wah! we're out dancing and having a good time!' I didn't go out with them because I was pregnant and feeling pretty awful, which perhaps adds an extra layer of jealousy. His culture is pretty kissy, and he doesn't think this is a big deal, especially since he would never sleep with anyone besides me.
He has lots of female friends, including ex-girlfriends, and it's very important to him to stay in touch with them. He has one friend in particular with that he shares a lot of emotional stuff with and also occasionally they discuss sex and their respective sex lives. I'm pretty sure she also gives him advice on our marriage.
These are just a few examples and it isn't so much the specific incidents, but more of the issue that I am much more conservative about this. I would probably never go dancing alone with a guy friend - that would seem strange. I also don't have many close male friends and I can't imagine discussing intimate sexual things with them. I think I would feel like I was getting too close to a line.
We've been together for quite a long time, and we've tried to discuss individual things and come to compromises, but it feels like there are always new and unexpected incidents that come up that haven't been covered ('You have old naked pictures of your ex-girlfriends still? Not ok!'). He feels like there are ticking time bombs everywhere and that some of my requests are asking too much. I feel tired of being upset by new 'crimes'.
For what it's worth, we currently live in his home country, and my friends here as well as my therapist seem to think that I should relax a bit. So long as he isn't sleeping around, I shouldn't be worried. As for me, I feel unhappy with the status quo - part of me feels like he should be more thoughtful and considerate of my feelings. Part of me thinks I should work on my self esteem and allow both of us a little more freedom.
My current approach has been to do more 'daring' things myself. For instance, a male colleague and I have started grabbing lunch together a couple of times a month. This is something I wouldn't do previously, since we get along well and he's a little flirty and I would feel guilty encouraging such a relationship, even if it was only friendship. But we have a good time, and I feel less jealous when my husband spends alone time with other women.
However, I'm a little worried that this might be an unhealthy approach overall, where I end up having to compete with my husband ('Fine! I'm going dancing tomorrow! I wonder who I will kiss?!') and that it will ultimately hurt our (otherwise good, supportive, enjoyable) relationship and/or make me unhappy.
So, if you have a similar mismatch of what you consider to be 'boundary' behaviour, how did you deal? What helped?
This has nothing to do with you coming from a religious background, or him being from Europe, or anything like that. This doesn't bother you because you have some kind of hangup leftover from your upbringing, it bothers you because he is being disrespectful and dishonest.
posted by cakelite at 9:40 AM on October 9, 2015 [51 favorites]
posted by cakelite at 9:40 AM on October 9, 2015 [51 favorites]
When I read the above-the-fold part I was worried the tit-for-tat part was going to be like "So I retaliate against my husband by doing stuff that he finds upsetting." That would be a problem.
But honestly, given that it really doesn't bother your husband any, it sounds like a great idea to be cultivating some genuinely platonic male friends — and experiencing for yourself that it's possible for men and women to be platonic friends. (Though I will say, it would be an even better idea if you were more sure the guy's interest really was platonic. Given your comment about your current lunch buddy's flirty behavior, it wouldn't totally shock me if he was interested in something more, and you might find that unpleasant to have to deal with.)
posted by nebulawindphone at 9:43 AM on October 9, 2015 [20 favorites]
But honestly, given that it really doesn't bother your husband any, it sounds like a great idea to be cultivating some genuinely platonic male friends — and experiencing for yourself that it's possible for men and women to be platonic friends. (Though I will say, it would be an even better idea if you were more sure the guy's interest really was platonic. Given your comment about your current lunch buddy's flirty behavior, it wouldn't totally shock me if he was interested in something more, and you might find that unpleasant to have to deal with.)
posted by nebulawindphone at 9:43 AM on October 9, 2015 [20 favorites]
I think there comes a time when you have to listen to yourself and stop trying to twist yourself into a pretzel so you can handle behavior that you're not comfortable with and can't trust.
Because it comes at the expense of yourself and your peace of mind and your happiness. Not to mention your sense of self-worth.
posted by discopolo at 9:44 AM on October 9, 2015 [31 favorites]
Because it comes at the expense of yourself and your peace of mind and your happiness. Not to mention your sense of self-worth.
posted by discopolo at 9:44 AM on October 9, 2015 [31 favorites]
I don't think you're being unreasonable at all. If I was doing something that bothered my partner and made him doubt the security of our relationship, I would stop doing it. The cultural thing isn't really important; he married you, and he needs to prioritize your relationship above going out dancing with stranger ladies and kissing them on the face.
I don't know what you should do, but I want you to know you aren't being crazy. It's way easier to change behavior than feelings in a situation like this, and that your husband isn't willing to bend on his behavior is a bit of a red flag for me.
posted by something something at 9:48 AM on October 9, 2015 [18 favorites]
I don't know what you should do, but I want you to know you aren't being crazy. It's way easier to change behavior than feelings in a situation like this, and that your husband isn't willing to bend on his behavior is a bit of a red flag for me.
posted by something something at 9:48 AM on October 9, 2015 [18 favorites]
Hi, American (who later also became French) raised by evangelicals here, have lived and worked in France 17 years now. I totally get the weirdness around different acceptable levels of flirting – it took me two years in offices to find my own (new) bearings. Those bearings are indeed more laid-back than in the States, yet I have not fundamentally changed, because I've been careful to remain true to what's comfortable for me. Much like, though both you and I realize that "no sex before marriage evaaarrr" is unrealistic, we still value monogamy and fidelity for certain values of "fidelity" that aren't necessarily the same for everyone, and that's okay because that's who we are.
With that said. On the one hand, it does sound like your husband is taking a bit of advantage of your good faith and lack of knowledge about his culture of origin. He's pushing the boundaries and not being very honest, frankly, with the whole "I forgot" thing. France is a kissy country as well, and yet I can count on one finger the time a guy kiss-kissed me on the cheek as opposed to bise-kissed. We all know the difference between an "I want you" kiss and a professional/friendship bise. (See: I kiss CEOs by American standards, but by French standards, we're politely exchanging business greetings.) I'm not thrilled by how your husband seems to be playing with that boundary.
On the other hand. Lunch alone with a male colleague? Dear, I've done that nearly every workday for the past 10 years. (Not the same ones, obviously.) A wee bit flirty? Egads they all are. With a few exceptions. But even the exceptions are slightly more flirty than the reserved guys in the States. Be careful with your own "unconscious" attractions – I say this for you, because I have been there and done that. My first year in a French office, I was convinced a couple of men were interested in me. Thankfully my puritanical upbringing kept me from anything, because hooooo boy was I mistaken. They were just being friendly.
What have I done? I listen to myself. Very glad I did it with those two guys I wondered about; I held back, observed how they behaved with other women (exactly the same, or flirtier if they were prettier and younger, sigh), and took notes watching how women I got along well with behaved. There is something to be said for the assertiveness that flirtiness can bring; I know women who wield it powerfully. Not manipulatively, but powerfully, to get their points across – for instance, say a man's getting mouthy and angry. I've seen women (50-year-old managers) laugh, wink at them and say in a flirty voice, "oh, you're so cute when you get mad!" It's like a ninja move, the way it brings everyone back on course.
Don't go outside of your comfort zone. Be faithful to who you are. And tell your husband to knock it off with the "everyone's kissy" nonsense, you can tell him this here Frenchwoman sees straight through that ;)
posted by fraula at 9:49 AM on October 9, 2015 [53 favorites]
With that said. On the one hand, it does sound like your husband is taking a bit of advantage of your good faith and lack of knowledge about his culture of origin. He's pushing the boundaries and not being very honest, frankly, with the whole "I forgot" thing. France is a kissy country as well, and yet I can count on one finger the time a guy kiss-kissed me on the cheek as opposed to bise-kissed. We all know the difference between an "I want you" kiss and a professional/friendship bise. (See: I kiss CEOs by American standards, but by French standards, we're politely exchanging business greetings.) I'm not thrilled by how your husband seems to be playing with that boundary.
On the other hand. Lunch alone with a male colleague? Dear, I've done that nearly every workday for the past 10 years. (Not the same ones, obviously.) A wee bit flirty? Egads they all are. With a few exceptions. But even the exceptions are slightly more flirty than the reserved guys in the States. Be careful with your own "unconscious" attractions – I say this for you, because I have been there and done that. My first year in a French office, I was convinced a couple of men were interested in me. Thankfully my puritanical upbringing kept me from anything, because hooooo boy was I mistaken. They were just being friendly.
What have I done? I listen to myself. Very glad I did it with those two guys I wondered about; I held back, observed how they behaved with other women (exactly the same, or flirtier if they were prettier and younger, sigh), and took notes watching how women I got along well with behaved. There is something to be said for the assertiveness that flirtiness can bring; I know women who wield it powerfully. Not manipulatively, but powerfully, to get their points across – for instance, say a man's getting mouthy and angry. I've seen women (50-year-old managers) laugh, wink at them and say in a flirty voice, "oh, you're so cute when you get mad!" It's like a ninja move, the way it brings everyone back on course.
Don't go outside of your comfort zone. Be faithful to who you are. And tell your husband to knock it off with the "everyone's kissy" nonsense, you can tell him this here Frenchwoman sees straight through that ;)
posted by fraula at 9:49 AM on October 9, 2015 [53 favorites]
My current approach has been to do more 'daring' things myself. For instance, a male colleague and I have started grabbing lunch together a couple of times a month. This is something I wouldn't do previously, since we get along well and he's a little flirty and I would feel guilty encouraging such a relationship, even if it was only friendship.
I'm from a liberal Scandinavian background and I am personally amazed anyone would consider this "daring" behaviour. Doesn't everybody hang out with their male colleagues during lunch and have a laugh? See, that is my cultural hangup and if you think of this as slightly more outrageous behaviour than what you've been used to .. I guess I'm sensing there is a cultural gulf between yourself and your husband.
Hear me out.
I am in a long-term, loving relationship with someone from a different cultural background - granted, it's just Scottish and Danish cultural backgrounds but it's enough to make us have to work on some things together. If you have an even wider gap between your cultural background and your husband's background, obviously you guys will have to work harder to making it work. That means having to listen to each other, having to grow together, having to compromise, and having to develop a shared set of cultural values (which includes trust).
You guys have been together ten years. Have you worked on developing that set of shared values? That's where I'd start based upon my own experience being in a bi-cultural relationship.
posted by kariebookish at 9:52 AM on October 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
I'm from a liberal Scandinavian background and I am personally amazed anyone would consider this "daring" behaviour. Doesn't everybody hang out with their male colleagues during lunch and have a laugh? See, that is my cultural hangup and if you think of this as slightly more outrageous behaviour than what you've been used to .. I guess I'm sensing there is a cultural gulf between yourself and your husband.
Hear me out.
I am in a long-term, loving relationship with someone from a different cultural background - granted, it's just Scottish and Danish cultural backgrounds but it's enough to make us have to work on some things together. If you have an even wider gap between your cultural background and your husband's background, obviously you guys will have to work harder to making it work. That means having to listen to each other, having to grow together, having to compromise, and having to develop a shared set of cultural values (which includes trust).
You guys have been together ten years. Have you worked on developing that set of shared values? That's where I'd start based upon my own experience being in a bi-cultural relationship.
posted by kariebookish at 9:52 AM on October 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
I come from a kissy European culture (although I'm effectively American) and the "I don't remember where I kissed her" thing is a bit weird. I usually greet/farewell my lady-friends from that culture with a kiss on the cheek (or an air-kiss/kiss noise) because that's considered an appropriate/expected sign of affection toward a friend but that's about it. But, yeah, the "I don't remember" part is certainly kinda weird and outside of that territory and I think it's more or less okay to say "hey can we dial this back a bit?"
The thing with him having a lady-friend with whom he has a purely platonic relationship and discusses intimate things sounds like he has a healthy relationship with a person of the opposite sex which is generally a good sign about a dude's relationship with women in his life. People (some people, at least) need people to talk about this stuff with. But if you're not okay with it, you're not okay with it. Not sure what you can do about that, but it doesn't strike me as terribly odd but I do know Americans, especially from conservative backgrounds, tend to be uncomfortable with close opposite-sex friendships between hetero people. But like I said I can't see a way to get him to stop doing that without saying "you can't have this supportive friend in your life" and I mean no one really ever takes that well and if they do that's a whole other problem.
The naked pictures thing is not great, but I assume he deleted them and understands this is a line for you now?
posted by griphus at 9:53 AM on October 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
The thing with him having a lady-friend with whom he has a purely platonic relationship and discusses intimate things sounds like he has a healthy relationship with a person of the opposite sex which is generally a good sign about a dude's relationship with women in his life. People (some people, at least) need people to talk about this stuff with. But if you're not okay with it, you're not okay with it. Not sure what you can do about that, but it doesn't strike me as terribly odd but I do know Americans, especially from conservative backgrounds, tend to be uncomfortable with close opposite-sex friendships between hetero people. But like I said I can't see a way to get him to stop doing that without saying "you can't have this supportive friend in your life" and I mean no one really ever takes that well and if they do that's a whole other problem.
The naked pictures thing is not great, but I assume he deleted them and understands this is a line for you now?
posted by griphus at 9:53 AM on October 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
There is there no rule book for society for defining what relationship behaviors "ought to be". It is the behaviors and expectations that you and your partner(s) negotiate and agree to that is the rule of law in your relationship .
You have a flag, your gut is checking in and instead of listening to that and and drawing boundaries and negotiating on that gut check you are equivocating his behavior. And that has me concerned.
In my experience, 100% of the time when my gut has said "what my partner did there gave me an uh-oh feeling" it has been correct and something I ignored at my own peril.
You need to set a boundary on what is acceptable behavior with other women, then negotiate the rules and consequences for stepping over them.
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:54 AM on October 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
You have a flag, your gut is checking in and instead of listening to that and and drawing boundaries and negotiating on that gut check you are equivocating his behavior. And that has me concerned.
In my experience, 100% of the time when my gut has said "what my partner did there gave me an uh-oh feeling" it has been correct and something I ignored at my own peril.
You need to set a boundary on what is acceptable behavior with other women, then negotiate the rules and consequences for stepping over them.
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:54 AM on October 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
Also I very much agree re: developing friendships with men. That may be able to help you see that you can have that kind of relationship with a person of the opposite sex with exactly 0% funny business. Just, you know, be careful that the men with whom you cultivate that relationship know that and definitely flush anyone who knowingly steps over the line.
posted by griphus at 9:56 AM on October 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by griphus at 9:56 AM on October 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
Most of the time I am out dancing at a bar, club, or concert, my husband is not there with me. It's not his thing. He's cool with this because he knows I won't do anything I wouldn't do in front of him, including get obliterated to the point of blackout. That's what works for us. I know it can happen to people, but "I don't remember" would not be okay. A platonic work lunch with a flirty male colleague is totally an okay thing and the same boundaries apply.
I don't think you are being unreasonable because I think your husband is doing stuff he wouldn't do in front of you, and he knows it. You should say that to him and ask him why.
posted by juliplease at 9:56 AM on October 9, 2015 [16 favorites]
I don't think you are being unreasonable because I think your husband is doing stuff he wouldn't do in front of you, and he knows it. You should say that to him and ask him why.
posted by juliplease at 9:56 AM on October 9, 2015 [16 favorites]
I personally wouldn't care much if he had people he talked about sex with, I think. (OK, my husband is not a talkative guy.) I do think that the going out dancing while pregnant partner is stuck at home is an issue. I would try to restrict that behavior, unless with a group or in a quite sober situation.
Overall, I think you need to do 80% of the compromising on this issue, roughly, and he only needs to do 20%. You knew what country he was from before you married him, right? Did he know how conservative your beliefs were or was it too hard for you to talk to him about sex and fidelity and nude pictures, and thus your beliefs are a bit of a surprise to him? Sometimes people who don't believe in pre-marital sex, like my mom, get married much too soon and have flawed marriages because they didn't get to know each other much before tying the knot.
I know that this is painful for you, but I think strict control of eyes and thoughts is a prescription for misery in a marriage. If you can lighten up on this topic, you will both be happier. (I have a female friend who is now divorced from a super controlling man who never wanted her to discuss their problems with anyone but him, even her sisters. This was like being stuck in a room with no oxygen in it. It made it more difficult for her to leave him, it let him brainwash her more, but it didn't make their marriage more successful. Anyway, knowing how horrible he was tilts my sympathy a lot, maybe unfairly to you. Sorry.)
posted by puddledork at 9:59 AM on October 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
Overall, I think you need to do 80% of the compromising on this issue, roughly, and he only needs to do 20%. You knew what country he was from before you married him, right? Did he know how conservative your beliefs were or was it too hard for you to talk to him about sex and fidelity and nude pictures, and thus your beliefs are a bit of a surprise to him? Sometimes people who don't believe in pre-marital sex, like my mom, get married much too soon and have flawed marriages because they didn't get to know each other much before tying the knot.
I know that this is painful for you, but I think strict control of eyes and thoughts is a prescription for misery in a marriage. If you can lighten up on this topic, you will both be happier. (I have a female friend who is now divorced from a super controlling man who never wanted her to discuss their problems with anyone but him, even her sisters. This was like being stuck in a room with no oxygen in it. It made it more difficult for her to leave him, it let him brainwash her more, but it didn't make their marriage more successful. Anyway, knowing how horrible he was tilts my sympathy a lot, maybe unfairly to you. Sorry.)
posted by puddledork at 9:59 AM on October 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
I was reading your question and thinking about how I would draw the line on some of these but not others, and that made me realize that my real answer is that you need to talk these things out individually and decide for yourselves what is and isn't okay, just like you have been doing. Except then he says this:
He feels like there are ticking time bombs everywhere and that some of my requests are asking too much.
Navigating cultural differences is tough, especially when it focuses on sensitive subjects like these ones. I think a relationship across cultures does sometimes require having a lot of tough conversations, and a healthy couple can manage those differences if they are both willing to compromise. For instance, you have compromised on your feelings about lunching with opposite-sex coworkers, and it turned out well.
And that's hard work; I won't pretend it isn't. To me, it sounds like he's gotten to a point where he doesn't want to have those conversations anymore or do the work on his side. I don't think that's a good strategy in a relationship. I think he will need to put in that effort, just as you are doing, to make this work. When he comes back with this argument about feeling attacked, I think you could try reminding him that you feel the same way (that new and frustrating problems come up just when you thought everything was smooth and settled), you think it's a hard but necessary part of a relationship with cultural differences, and your goal is not to make him feel bad or get "justice", but to find compromises that work for both of you. If he reacts to that dismissively or angrily, I'm not sure there is a healthy way to move forward with the relationship, unfortunately. That's probably hard to hear after 10 years but sometimes you just hit a dead end with these things. The other sadly unfortunate thing that might happen even if you do move forward in a spirit of compromise and collaboration is that you might both have a hard line and they don't match up, and at that point you have to decide whether the relationship is worth continuing.
posted by capricorn at 10:01 AM on October 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
He feels like there are ticking time bombs everywhere and that some of my requests are asking too much.
Navigating cultural differences is tough, especially when it focuses on sensitive subjects like these ones. I think a relationship across cultures does sometimes require having a lot of tough conversations, and a healthy couple can manage those differences if they are both willing to compromise. For instance, you have compromised on your feelings about lunching with opposite-sex coworkers, and it turned out well.
And that's hard work; I won't pretend it isn't. To me, it sounds like he's gotten to a point where he doesn't want to have those conversations anymore or do the work on his side. I don't think that's a good strategy in a relationship. I think he will need to put in that effort, just as you are doing, to make this work. When he comes back with this argument about feeling attacked, I think you could try reminding him that you feel the same way (that new and frustrating problems come up just when you thought everything was smooth and settled), you think it's a hard but necessary part of a relationship with cultural differences, and your goal is not to make him feel bad or get "justice", but to find compromises that work for both of you. If he reacts to that dismissively or angrily, I'm not sure there is a healthy way to move forward with the relationship, unfortunately. That's probably hard to hear after 10 years but sometimes you just hit a dead end with these things. The other sadly unfortunate thing that might happen even if you do move forward in a spirit of compromise and collaboration is that you might both have a hard line and they don't match up, and at that point you have to decide whether the relationship is worth continuing.
posted by capricorn at 10:01 AM on October 9, 2015 [9 favorites]
Yeah, "kissy european culture" doesn't mean "kissing while grinding drunkenly on the dancefloor". It means kissing your friends and family hello and goodbye, it means being non-stiff about embracing people enthusiastically, it means being open with affection that is very clearly friend affection and not romantic affection.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:01 AM on October 9, 2015 [20 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 10:01 AM on October 9, 2015 [20 favorites]
100% agree with Annika Cicada. Boundaries are not an absolute. Some people have extremely wide boundaries and others much more narrow. The key is boundaries are negotiated.
A boundary mismatch absolutely does not either party is necessarily wrong. More directly, you're not wrong for feeling the way you do. Both people need to be willing to come to a compromise. If either party is unwilling or unable to do this, then you're looking at a more serious problem.
It seems to me that he's not respecting your boundaries, and expecting you to conform to what he wants (maybe the social norm?) where you are. You've got a really wide mismatch. That may be completely reasonable on his part, just as your position is just as reasonable.
The issue here is not purely coping on your part. How much is he willing to negotiate, and can you define for yourself how much are you willing to live with?
posted by cnc at 10:16 AM on October 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
A boundary mismatch absolutely does not either party is necessarily wrong. More directly, you're not wrong for feeling the way you do. Both people need to be willing to come to a compromise. If either party is unwilling or unable to do this, then you're looking at a more serious problem.
It seems to me that he's not respecting your boundaries, and expecting you to conform to what he wants (maybe the social norm?) where you are. You've got a really wide mismatch. That may be completely reasonable on his part, just as your position is just as reasonable.
The issue here is not purely coping on your part. How much is he willing to negotiate, and can you define for yourself how much are you willing to live with?
posted by cnc at 10:16 AM on October 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't think you two should be aiming for compromises. Compromises implies that you have different positions, and will uncomfortably/reluctantly meet somewhere in the middle. I feel like what you should be aiming for is a better understanding of each other's desires and needs, so that you can comfortably draw lines between what's okay and what's not, together. You should be thinking about this as your shared issue to solve, not as you being separate entities with different goals.
Honestly to me your attitudes sound a little strange. It sounds like you may believe, at least a little, that men and women can't have platonic fun non-sexual relationships. (There's a Muslim saying that when a man and a woman are alone together, the devil makes the third. Sounds like you may --maybe unconsciously-- a little bit believe that.)
That why you're uncomfortable when he goes out dancing with a woman, and feel yourself wanting to retaliate by having lunch with a man. To me, I think it's possible that his dancing with a woman / having female friends is utterly innocent (because that's where they're coming from) whereas you having lunch with a male friend is not innocent, because you believe it's not. Do you see what I mean?
If that's right, that's why you're having a hard time solving this. Because you see the options ranging from "my husband does not hang out with other women" at the good end, to "my husband has sex with other women" at the bad end. Whereas he sees the range as "I am allowed to have fun friendships with everybody and retain old nude photos of people I have fondness for" on the good end, to "I am not allowed to interact with women other than my wife" on the bad end. Or at least that's my theory. If I'm right, no wonder you can't reach agreement, because your basic assumptions are so different.
So yes. I think your current flirty-guy-lunch approach isn't healthy, and it's smart that you've recognised that. I would try asking your partner a bunch of questions about the behaviours that worry you, and try to figure out what his goals and desires are. If he believes it strengthens your marriage to get advice about it from other women, if he believes that dancing with female friends is as likely to lead to extramarital sex as going to a soccer game with male friends, if he's hanging onto the old photos because he never thought to delete them and doesn't see them as a big deal -- and most of all, if he is totally committed to the marriage and to you, then, if I were you, I would relax. Not reluctantly because you feel you have no choice, but happily, because it would mean everything is actually okay.
posted by Susan PG at 10:30 AM on October 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
Honestly to me your attitudes sound a little strange. It sounds like you may believe, at least a little, that men and women can't have platonic fun non-sexual relationships. (There's a Muslim saying that when a man and a woman are alone together, the devil makes the third. Sounds like you may --maybe unconsciously-- a little bit believe that.)
That why you're uncomfortable when he goes out dancing with a woman, and feel yourself wanting to retaliate by having lunch with a man. To me, I think it's possible that his dancing with a woman / having female friends is utterly innocent (because that's where they're coming from) whereas you having lunch with a male friend is not innocent, because you believe it's not. Do you see what I mean?
If that's right, that's why you're having a hard time solving this. Because you see the options ranging from "my husband does not hang out with other women" at the good end, to "my husband has sex with other women" at the bad end. Whereas he sees the range as "I am allowed to have fun friendships with everybody and retain old nude photos of people I have fondness for" on the good end, to "I am not allowed to interact with women other than my wife" on the bad end. Or at least that's my theory. If I'm right, no wonder you can't reach agreement, because your basic assumptions are so different.
So yes. I think your current flirty-guy-lunch approach isn't healthy, and it's smart that you've recognised that. I would try asking your partner a bunch of questions about the behaviours that worry you, and try to figure out what his goals and desires are. If he believes it strengthens your marriage to get advice about it from other women, if he believes that dancing with female friends is as likely to lead to extramarital sex as going to a soccer game with male friends, if he's hanging onto the old photos because he never thought to delete them and doesn't see them as a big deal -- and most of all, if he is totally committed to the marriage and to you, then, if I were you, I would relax. Not reluctantly because you feel you have no choice, but happily, because it would mean everything is actually okay.
posted by Susan PG at 10:30 AM on October 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
I don't have an answer for the whole question, but I wanted to weigh in as an American who has been close friends with and dated Europeans.
While some European cultures are "kissy", that's not, like, making out. There is a HUGE difference between a peck on the cheek in greeting and kissing someone in a romantic manner.
It really bothers me that your husband has you believing that this is down to his culture, that he doesn't understand the difference between a social kiss and a romantic one, or that he somehow can't help this behavior.
I do think you're being a bit uptight about certain things (him having friends of the opposite sex is absolutely fine, being friends with exes is normal, going out dancing doesn't have to be sexual), but there's an undertone of him gaslighting you that I really dislike.
posted by Sara C. at 10:41 AM on October 9, 2015 [15 favorites]
While some European cultures are "kissy", that's not, like, making out. There is a HUGE difference between a peck on the cheek in greeting and kissing someone in a romantic manner.
It really bothers me that your husband has you believing that this is down to his culture, that he doesn't understand the difference between a social kiss and a romantic one, or that he somehow can't help this behavior.
I do think you're being a bit uptight about certain things (him having friends of the opposite sex is absolutely fine, being friends with exes is normal, going out dancing doesn't have to be sexual), but there's an undertone of him gaslighting you that I really dislike.
posted by Sara C. at 10:41 AM on October 9, 2015 [15 favorites]
He feels like there are ticking time bombs everywhere and that some of my requests are asking too much. I feel tired of being upset by new 'crimes'.
This is the red flag for me. If there are things that he sees as potential sources of conflict, he should be telling you about them ASAP so they can be discussed and you can decide, together, how to compromise. If he keeps secrets and you discover them unexpectedly, probably at a really bad moment, of course things are going to bang. If he thinks that he is never going to be able to compromise on them, then you (both of you) should consider breaking up. Whether flirting etc is wrong may not be absolute, but lying and keeping secrets is absolutely wrong.
From your post I get the feeling that you see this as your problem and yours alone, that this is all down to some kind of inflexible cultural conditioning and that because you are in his country, your culture is wrong and his is right. That isn't necessarily true, and whilst culture and upbringing plays a part, remember you are individuals with your own independent values and boundaries.
I do worry that the "tit for tat" thing will make you feel better at first and then end badly - with you inadvertently leading on a third party, or doing something really outrageous just to get a reaction out of him. I think a better approach might be to encourage him to get those time bombs on the table and decide once and for all if you can deal with them.
posted by intensitymultiply at 10:58 AM on October 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is the red flag for me. If there are things that he sees as potential sources of conflict, he should be telling you about them ASAP so they can be discussed and you can decide, together, how to compromise. If he keeps secrets and you discover them unexpectedly, probably at a really bad moment, of course things are going to bang. If he thinks that he is never going to be able to compromise on them, then you (both of you) should consider breaking up. Whether flirting etc is wrong may not be absolute, but lying and keeping secrets is absolutely wrong.
From your post I get the feeling that you see this as your problem and yours alone, that this is all down to some kind of inflexible cultural conditioning and that because you are in his country, your culture is wrong and his is right. That isn't necessarily true, and whilst culture and upbringing plays a part, remember you are individuals with your own independent values and boundaries.
I do worry that the "tit for tat" thing will make you feel better at first and then end badly - with you inadvertently leading on a third party, or doing something really outrageous just to get a reaction out of him. I think a better approach might be to encourage him to get those time bombs on the table and decide once and for all if you can deal with them.
posted by intensitymultiply at 10:58 AM on October 9, 2015 [2 favorites]
My current approach has been to do more 'daring' things myself. For instance, a male colleague and I have started grabbing lunch together a couple of times a month. This is something I wouldn't do previously, since we get along well and he's a little flirty and I would feel guilty encouraging such a relationship, even if it was only friendship.
Yeah, going out to lunch with a male colleague isn't daring in the slightest generally. It definitely sounds like you still have some hangups and should talk about this with the husband.
He shouldn't have to do or not do a lot of things or run them by you to appease your feelings. If he's going to cheat, he's going to cheat (same as you) and there's not a whole lot you can do about it. Everything else in your relationship sounds like it's good, but this seems to be a huge and continuous sticking point and he hasn't changed. Perhaps you should instead, especially since allowing yourself to do more of these regular activities relieves the negative feelings you get from your husband's activities.
You can't change people and one would you want to change the person you're still in love and happy with. Change yourself, because your own actions and feelings are the only thing you can truly control.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:11 AM on October 9, 2015
Yeah, going out to lunch with a male colleague isn't daring in the slightest generally. It definitely sounds like you still have some hangups and should talk about this with the husband.
He shouldn't have to do or not do a lot of things or run them by you to appease your feelings. If he's going to cheat, he's going to cheat (same as you) and there's not a whole lot you can do about it. Everything else in your relationship sounds like it's good, but this seems to be a huge and continuous sticking point and he hasn't changed. Perhaps you should instead, especially since allowing yourself to do more of these regular activities relieves the negative feelings you get from your husband's activities.
You can't change people and one would you want to change the person you're still in love and happy with. Change yourself, because your own actions and feelings are the only thing you can truly control.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:11 AM on October 9, 2015
- Retaining friendships with exes, fine
- Having regular in-depth convos about your marriage with one of them in particular, if he's not having them with you, not fine
- Being flirty, fine
- That "maybe the forehead" kiss, not fine (speaking as a 1st gen with a kiss-to-greet/some flirting ok heritage)
- His going out and having a blast, while you were home with a creature taking over your uterus + related effects, possibly fine, but I wouldn't be down with it if it happened regularly
2nd that he's using his culture as a cover for caddish behaviour.
Dealing with it: He's not going to change. 2nd trusting your gut to decide if this kind of husband and this kind of marriage is ok with you.
posted by cotton dress sock at 11:23 AM on October 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
- Having regular in-depth convos about your marriage with one of them in particular, if he's not having them with you, not fine
- Being flirty, fine
- That "maybe the forehead" kiss, not fine (speaking as a 1st gen with a kiss-to-greet/some flirting ok heritage)
- His going out and having a blast, while you were home with a creature taking over your uterus + related effects, possibly fine, but I wouldn't be down with it if it happened regularly
2nd that he's using his culture as a cover for caddish behaviour.
Dealing with it: He's not going to change. 2nd trusting your gut to decide if this kind of husband and this kind of marriage is ok with you.
posted by cotton dress sock at 11:23 AM on October 9, 2015 [8 favorites]
Oh please. You don't sound like you have any "hang-ups" so much as you are probably sick and tired of being lied to in so many little ways by omission. You know you are in a mismatched partnership. So you're not some wannabe libertine even though you're feeling pressured to act that way -- good for you. Instead, you're clear on what's ok for you and what's not ok for you, and I applaud that.
"we currently live in his home country, and my friends here as well as my therapist seem to think that I should relax a bit. So long as he isn't sleeping around, I shouldn't be worried."
So basically the locals there, including your therapist, are unanimously telling you 'Hey, it's all good so long as he's not, like, fucking anyone else!' Huh?? Yeah, sorry no-- that is some ill-fitting, overly simplistic advice for you personally because it sounds like they are not really hearing you on your very specific concerns about his general pattern of rather-fluid-boundary-having behaviors around other women... including some women he has already been sexually and/or emotionally intimate with in the past. It just honestly makes you feel like utter shit. OF COURSE IT DOES. Let's review:
1) While you were pregnant and understandably feeling pretty damn vulnerable, he chose to go out dancing, alone, with his female friend after the two of them had left the rest of their crew they'd been with that night. He was very drunk, and is using that as an excuse for why he either cannot or will not tell you what exactly he did with her, but he is sure it involved some type of kissing. HUH?? Um, OF COURSE this does not feel ok! Hello: pregnancy vulnerability. Hello: how utterly convenient for him that he can't quite recall. Does not sound like he was very supportive of you, nor protective of your heart there at all.
2) "He has one [female] friend [among many! and they're all "important" to him...] in particular with that he shares a lot of emotional stuff with and also occasionally they discuss sex and their respective sex lives. I'm pretty sure she also gives him advice on our marriage." But you don't know for sure? Is this a woman you can trust to have your back and to view your behaviors as he tells them to her in a charitable light? Triangulation much? I dunno, taken together with the other stuff he's pulling, this doesn't read at all like he's fully on Team Your Marriage. Yeah, yeah, but men and women are friends all the time! And that can work when there are healthy boundaries; when there is the mutual sense that he is generally being loyal to you and not shit-talking you over trifling things to someone who does not have your best interests at heart.
3) 'You have old naked pictures of your ex-girlfriends still? Not ok!' -- Yeah. No kidding. "I just LOVE that my spouse keeps naked pictures of exes! Makes me feel so cherished and awesome in our marriage!" said no monogamous spouse ever. And look, this one should've been painfully obvious to anyone married to someone with your background, and the fact that it wasn't for him tells me his reading of his own wife's preferences is just way, way off. Intentionally so, or is he really that obtuse? The fact that he was shocked you took issue with this one makes me think, uh, does he even authentically know you? You're damn right to be concerned that he shows little regard for your feelings.
So, about your desire to work on your self-esteem = yes, definitely, do that, too. Frankly, you're going to need rock solid self-esteem, and very thick skin to survive a long-term partnership with a guy like this who craves so much female attention. I'm going to go against the grain here in this thread and suggest that you seeking out a little male companionship of the not-your-husband variety is a healthy thing in this specific context. Keep doing things that feel "daring" to you. You answered part of your own question here when you said this about your male colleague: "But we have a good time, and I feel less jealous when my husband spends alone time with other women." Bingo. Then that's what works for now. You having your own stuff going on. You forming other supportive relationships. You not sitting at home while he goes out dancing after hours with one woman -- no, you should be the one he's dancing with. Focus on what feels good and right for you.
As for your marriage: he needs to fire his friend as his unlicensed marriage counselor in favor of the two of you seeking out the services of an Actual Marriage Counselor. Your emotional needs need to be front and center on this man's radar. He needs to really authentically hear you so that he can begin to understand you instead of claiming ignorance. The structure and accountability of Actual Marriage Counseling would do you both a world of good.
posted by hush at 11:37 AM on October 9, 2015 [26 favorites]
"we currently live in his home country, and my friends here as well as my therapist seem to think that I should relax a bit. So long as he isn't sleeping around, I shouldn't be worried."
So basically the locals there, including your therapist, are unanimously telling you 'Hey, it's all good so long as he's not, like, fucking anyone else!' Huh?? Yeah, sorry no-- that is some ill-fitting, overly simplistic advice for you personally because it sounds like they are not really hearing you on your very specific concerns about his general pattern of rather-fluid-boundary-having behaviors around other women... including some women he has already been sexually and/or emotionally intimate with in the past. It just honestly makes you feel like utter shit. OF COURSE IT DOES. Let's review:
1) While you were pregnant and understandably feeling pretty damn vulnerable, he chose to go out dancing, alone, with his female friend after the two of them had left the rest of their crew they'd been with that night. He was very drunk, and is using that as an excuse for why he either cannot or will not tell you what exactly he did with her, but he is sure it involved some type of kissing. HUH?? Um, OF COURSE this does not feel ok! Hello: pregnancy vulnerability. Hello: how utterly convenient for him that he can't quite recall. Does not sound like he was very supportive of you, nor protective of your heart there at all.
2) "He has one [female] friend [among many! and they're all "important" to him...] in particular with that he shares a lot of emotional stuff with and also occasionally they discuss sex and their respective sex lives. I'm pretty sure she also gives him advice on our marriage." But you don't know for sure? Is this a woman you can trust to have your back and to view your behaviors as he tells them to her in a charitable light? Triangulation much? I dunno, taken together with the other stuff he's pulling, this doesn't read at all like he's fully on Team Your Marriage. Yeah, yeah, but men and women are friends all the time! And that can work when there are healthy boundaries; when there is the mutual sense that he is generally being loyal to you and not shit-talking you over trifling things to someone who does not have your best interests at heart.
3) 'You have old naked pictures of your ex-girlfriends still? Not ok!' -- Yeah. No kidding. "I just LOVE that my spouse keeps naked pictures of exes! Makes me feel so cherished and awesome in our marriage!" said no monogamous spouse ever. And look, this one should've been painfully obvious to anyone married to someone with your background, and the fact that it wasn't for him tells me his reading of his own wife's preferences is just way, way off. Intentionally so, or is he really that obtuse? The fact that he was shocked you took issue with this one makes me think, uh, does he even authentically know you? You're damn right to be concerned that he shows little regard for your feelings.
So, about your desire to work on your self-esteem = yes, definitely, do that, too. Frankly, you're going to need rock solid self-esteem, and very thick skin to survive a long-term partnership with a guy like this who craves so much female attention. I'm going to go against the grain here in this thread and suggest that you seeking out a little male companionship of the not-your-husband variety is a healthy thing in this specific context. Keep doing things that feel "daring" to you. You answered part of your own question here when you said this about your male colleague: "But we have a good time, and I feel less jealous when my husband spends alone time with other women." Bingo. Then that's what works for now. You having your own stuff going on. You forming other supportive relationships. You not sitting at home while he goes out dancing after hours with one woman -- no, you should be the one he's dancing with. Focus on what feels good and right for you.
As for your marriage: he needs to fire his friend as his unlicensed marriage counselor in favor of the two of you seeking out the services of an Actual Marriage Counselor. Your emotional needs need to be front and center on this man's radar. He needs to really authentically hear you so that he can begin to understand you instead of claiming ignorance. The structure and accountability of Actual Marriage Counseling would do you both a world of good.
posted by hush at 11:37 AM on October 9, 2015 [26 favorites]
I thought it was interesting that you mentioned "I'm pretty sure she also gives him advice on our marriage.", because if you suspected it was bad advice, you probably would have said so?
The only thing I was concerned about was, he thinks it was on her forehead. Hmmmmmm..... Er, unless you just mean he wasn't sure if it was forehead or cheek.
I feel tired of being upset by new 'crimes'....
Ok, so the essential problem is that you have a value clash.
You can talk out, lay down the line, or compromise on issue after issue, but they will keep coming up, because fundamentally, you see them as all tied together by an underlying value system that you have, even if you have never put it into words, and he doesn't have this value, and neither do most of the people around you.
To people who don't have your value set, each item is a separate, discrete event. It sounds like after being made aware that it makes you, his partner upset, he is changing his behaviour for each incident.
However, he doesn't have the underlying value that you have, that is tying all these 'crimes' together. The best hope you have, is really identifying what all these things have in common, so you can explain them.
You may end up asking yourself if it's a value that YOU still want to have.
Start figuring out the lines and boundaries. Somewhere in the middle of them, is your underlying value.
As a thought exercise, start flipping around genders, and even sexual orientations, for each boundary, just to make sure it still sounds reasonable. Sometimes the bottom falls out of the justification once you do this.
Once you have a rock solid understanding of what is reasonable to you, you'll be in a better position to explain to him what you need, and then it's up to both of you to evaluate whether that is reasonable.
For example, one of your boundaries is or was, not having lunch with opposite sex co-workers. Do you think it would be reasonable to have lunch with same sex coworkers?
Now, some people might actually hit their boundary or value right here - they may NOT be ok with their partner having lunch regularly with anyone else!
Some people's actual value is that their partner should be their BEST (and possibly only) friend, and it's not about sex at all, but that they don't want their partner to have any friendships that threaten the primacy of their relationship (I'm not suggesting that is healthy, but just that that might be the value).
Would you feel threatened if you were both gay men and he was having lunch with a female colleague? Probably not. Would you feel threatened if you were both bisexual and he was having lunch with ANYONE? Possibly, yes?
Ask yourself if it would be ok if he was having lunch with someone conventionally attractive, but who you KNOW he has no attraction to. Would you still be concerned?
Possibly your cultural value could be that you don't maintain or give the impression of intimacy with anyone who is a possible sexual partner. Even if you know they aren't. It can actually be tied up with what other people would think, rather than what you think or know - that's why we call them 'cultural' values, but you are outside of that culture.
Possibly it's down to actually only being concerned with people who he would actually have sexual attraction to.
If so, what do you want him to do if he is attracted to someone, and how do you want him to behave differently with people who he is not attracted to?
Are you concerned that the other person might be attracted to him? If so, what do you think is reasonable?
For each action, swap your genders round. You may feel that some of the things he is doing you DO feel fine about, but wouldn't feel ok about doing yourself, because you feel that 'women have more of a responsibility to reject advances' value, or something like that. Just, figure out what it is.
Really get it nailed down in your head what monogamy means to you. No, there is no one definition.
Figure out what you feel/want, and what you think is reasonable. It may not be the same.
So, for example, you cannot and should not police what someone else thinks about. It's abusive. Most people kind of have a rule of thumb that what happens in someone's head, stays in their head.
Still, want if you want your partner to never think or fantasise about anyone but you? Or to never masturbate except with you? Or not at all? An only slightly controlling, but more realistic boundary might be, that you don't ever want to know if he fantasises about anyone but you, and that might extend to porn, etc.
You might agree that you don't ever want to know if he has sexual attraction outside you (nothing acted on, but if it's just an attraction), and that means making an effort to delete or destroy any evidence that he has been sexually attracted to people who are not you. You expect him to clear browser histories, not buy videos or magazines ever, and get rid of old photos of girlfriends etc. If asked around you, to deflect.
He does not get your underlying value.
Neither do most of the people where you live. The only way you are going to be able to have a chance to negotiate it, is if you can really pull out from your subconscious what that value is, in words, and then talk about it.
I mean, if it was a new relationship, it would kind of be this situation. By now, it might be a price of admission event.
I am kind of curious though, do you think your marriage is helped by the advice he gets from his friends?
posted by Elysum at 11:45 AM on October 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
The only thing I was concerned about was, he thinks it was on her forehead. Hmmmmmm..... Er, unless you just mean he wasn't sure if it was forehead or cheek.
I feel tired of being upset by new 'crimes'....
Ok, so the essential problem is that you have a value clash.
You can talk out, lay down the line, or compromise on issue after issue, but they will keep coming up, because fundamentally, you see them as all tied together by an underlying value system that you have, even if you have never put it into words, and he doesn't have this value, and neither do most of the people around you.
To people who don't have your value set, each item is a separate, discrete event. It sounds like after being made aware that it makes you, his partner upset, he is changing his behaviour for each incident.
However, he doesn't have the underlying value that you have, that is tying all these 'crimes' together. The best hope you have, is really identifying what all these things have in common, so you can explain them.
You may end up asking yourself if it's a value that YOU still want to have.
Start figuring out the lines and boundaries. Somewhere in the middle of them, is your underlying value.
As a thought exercise, start flipping around genders, and even sexual orientations, for each boundary, just to make sure it still sounds reasonable. Sometimes the bottom falls out of the justification once you do this.
Once you have a rock solid understanding of what is reasonable to you, you'll be in a better position to explain to him what you need, and then it's up to both of you to evaluate whether that is reasonable.
For example, one of your boundaries is or was, not having lunch with opposite sex co-workers. Do you think it would be reasonable to have lunch with same sex coworkers?
Now, some people might actually hit their boundary or value right here - they may NOT be ok with their partner having lunch regularly with anyone else!
Some people's actual value is that their partner should be their BEST (and possibly only) friend, and it's not about sex at all, but that they don't want their partner to have any friendships that threaten the primacy of their relationship (I'm not suggesting that is healthy, but just that that might be the value).
Would you feel threatened if you were both gay men and he was having lunch with a female colleague? Probably not. Would you feel threatened if you were both bisexual and he was having lunch with ANYONE? Possibly, yes?
Ask yourself if it would be ok if he was having lunch with someone conventionally attractive, but who you KNOW he has no attraction to. Would you still be concerned?
Possibly your cultural value could be that you don't maintain or give the impression of intimacy with anyone who is a possible sexual partner. Even if you know they aren't. It can actually be tied up with what other people would think, rather than what you think or know - that's why we call them 'cultural' values, but you are outside of that culture.
Possibly it's down to actually only being concerned with people who he would actually have sexual attraction to.
If so, what do you want him to do if he is attracted to someone, and how do you want him to behave differently with people who he is not attracted to?
Are you concerned that the other person might be attracted to him? If so, what do you think is reasonable?
For each action, swap your genders round. You may feel that some of the things he is doing you DO feel fine about, but wouldn't feel ok about doing yourself, because you feel that 'women have more of a responsibility to reject advances' value, or something like that. Just, figure out what it is.
Really get it nailed down in your head what monogamy means to you. No, there is no one definition.
Figure out what you feel/want, and what you think is reasonable. It may not be the same.
So, for example, you cannot and should not police what someone else thinks about. It's abusive. Most people kind of have a rule of thumb that what happens in someone's head, stays in their head.
Still, want if you want your partner to never think or fantasise about anyone but you? Or to never masturbate except with you? Or not at all? An only slightly controlling, but more realistic boundary might be, that you don't ever want to know if he fantasises about anyone but you, and that might extend to porn, etc.
You might agree that you don't ever want to know if he has sexual attraction outside you (nothing acted on, but if it's just an attraction), and that means making an effort to delete or destroy any evidence that he has been sexually attracted to people who are not you. You expect him to clear browser histories, not buy videos or magazines ever, and get rid of old photos of girlfriends etc. If asked around you, to deflect.
He does not get your underlying value.
Neither do most of the people where you live. The only way you are going to be able to have a chance to negotiate it, is if you can really pull out from your subconscious what that value is, in words, and then talk about it.
I mean, if it was a new relationship, it would kind of be this situation. By now, it might be a price of admission event.
I am kind of curious though, do you think your marriage is helped by the advice he gets from his friends?
posted by Elysum at 11:45 AM on October 9, 2015 [4 favorites]
Further thought experiments:
If he was at home with a chronic health condition, or, just swap the genders around, if he was pregnant, would you have left the house in the evening for an activity you enjoy?
Would you have drunk alcohol if your partner couldn't?
So, the other thing I didn't get into above, was, you shouldn't be doing things out of 'revenge', but do consider what you think is fair.
You need to hold YOURSELF to the same standards that you hold for him.
If you think it is ok with him having lunch with opposite sex coworkers, then it is ok for you to do so to!
If you wouldn't leave the house when he was ill, why do you think your own needs are less important than his?
The whole point of flipping around the value system, is to make sure you feel that you aren't holding yourself to unfair standards. It is the unfairness that really bites, I find, if one person is making compromises the other person would never ask of them, etc.
posted by Elysum at 11:55 AM on October 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
If he was at home with a chronic health condition, or, just swap the genders around, if he was pregnant, would you have left the house in the evening for an activity you enjoy?
Would you have drunk alcohol if your partner couldn't?
So, the other thing I didn't get into above, was, you shouldn't be doing things out of 'revenge', but do consider what you think is fair.
You need to hold YOURSELF to the same standards that you hold for him.
If you think it is ok with him having lunch with opposite sex coworkers, then it is ok for you to do so to!
If you wouldn't leave the house when he was ill, why do you think your own needs are less important than his?
The whole point of flipping around the value system, is to make sure you feel that you aren't holding yourself to unfair standards. It is the unfairness that really bites, I find, if one person is making compromises the other person would never ask of them, etc.
posted by Elysum at 11:55 AM on October 9, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think your husband gets a HUGE ego boost out of feeling somewhat single/free (i.e., having naked photos of exes, flirting and kissing random women, etc.). If you want to do that stuff too with the men of your choice, you probably WILL feel less jealous. But you will also be changing your behavior a lot. So your choices are:
1) Drop your boundaries and pretty seriously change your own monogamous activity so you thrive on the attentions of more than one man
2) Don't change your behavior, and feel jealous of his many sources of female attention vs. your single source of male attention
3) Decide you don't want to change and don't want to feel jealous, so you leave him
There is also option 4), where he takes your feelings into account and dials back his need for other women's charms, but that's under his control, not yours.
posted by easter queen at 12:22 PM on October 9, 2015 [10 favorites]
1) Drop your boundaries and pretty seriously change your own monogamous activity so you thrive on the attentions of more than one man
2) Don't change your behavior, and feel jealous of his many sources of female attention vs. your single source of male attention
3) Decide you don't want to change and don't want to feel jealous, so you leave him
There is also option 4), where he takes your feelings into account and dials back his need for other women's charms, but that's under his control, not yours.
posted by easter queen at 12:22 PM on October 9, 2015 [10 favorites]
I am (on the edges of) a subculture so conservative in these matters that for a married person to talk to an opposite-sex person on line at the grocery store is a little iffy. No kidding. It's best to keep it to "Hello, all the best to the family, goodbye."
My ex (ex for other reasons) started talking to a woman in the grocery store (they usually shopped at the same time) and she began to make inquiries about him/us/our status. Naturally this sent me into orbit, I told him to knock it off, no really, and after protesting that these rules are ridiculous, which they are, he knocked it off. Especially when it got back to him that grocery lady had gotten the wrong idea! THEN he listened to me.
Which is to say. Well-intentioned, faithful people can make errors of judgment without any desire to cheat. BUT when their partner says knock it off, no really, then they knock it off. Culture, my foot. If there was no grey area here, then you wouldn't feel icky about it. Tell him to cut it out this minute.
posted by 8603 at 2:09 PM on October 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
My ex (ex for other reasons) started talking to a woman in the grocery store (they usually shopped at the same time) and she began to make inquiries about him/us/our status. Naturally this sent me into orbit, I told him to knock it off, no really, and after protesting that these rules are ridiculous, which they are, he knocked it off. Especially when it got back to him that grocery lady had gotten the wrong idea! THEN he listened to me.
Which is to say. Well-intentioned, faithful people can make errors of judgment without any desire to cheat. BUT when their partner says knock it off, no really, then they knock it off. Culture, my foot. If there was no grey area here, then you wouldn't feel icky about it. Tell him to cut it out this minute.
posted by 8603 at 2:09 PM on October 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
Also, honestly, you live in his country so there will be a pressure to fit in with his culture. But do you notice how people unquestioningly assume that he's right, because he's a man and he's more sexually open, and thus you should change to match him? Well, it's not true. There's no reason it would be easier for you to match him than for him to match you, except that people assume it's more important for a man to feel sexually available than for a woman to feel respected and safe (during her pregnancy, no less).
Just because you're a "prudish American" doesn't actually mean that you're fundamentally wrong. If you were from another culture that valued more modest behavior, that would be as worthy of respect as European touchyfeelyness.
posted by easter queen at 3:47 PM on October 9, 2015 [7 favorites]
Just because you're a "prudish American" doesn't actually mean that you're fundamentally wrong. If you were from another culture that valued more modest behavior, that would be as worthy of respect as European touchyfeelyness.
posted by easter queen at 3:47 PM on October 9, 2015 [7 favorites]
Your feelings are valid. YOUR FEELINGS ARE VALID. You feel jealous for a reason and it is not because you have "hang ups". It is because your husband is either outright lying to you, creating lies of omission, or telling half-truths. Please listen to your intuition that is telling you you should be upset about your husband's behavior. You do not have to put up with him treating you this way.
I was married for 6 years. The first time I felt real, powerful jealousy 6 years into our marriage, I started therapy so I could try to talk myself out of being such a terrible person to be so jealous for no reason. He was cheating on me. Please listen to yourself.
Keeping naked pictures of ex-girlfriends is a huge huge red flag, disrespectful
to both you AND his exes, and I would LOSE MY SHIT if I found out my significant other had been hiding that from me.
posted by a strong female character at 3:52 PM on October 9, 2015 [10 favorites]
I was married for 6 years. The first time I felt real, powerful jealousy 6 years into our marriage, I started therapy so I could try to talk myself out of being such a terrible person to be so jealous for no reason. He was cheating on me. Please listen to yourself.
Keeping naked pictures of ex-girlfriends is a huge huge red flag, disrespectful
to both you AND his exes, and I would LOSE MY SHIT if I found out my significant other had been hiding that from me.
posted by a strong female character at 3:52 PM on October 9, 2015 [10 favorites]
What is he losing here? What are you taking away from him?
Is he embarrassed by your "puritanical American-ness" in front of his family/social circle? If so, fuck him, he shouldn't have chosen to be with an American.
Is it extremely painful to him to refrain from kissing someone? (Doesn't sound like it if he can't even fucking remember it happening!)
Is it absolutely necessary that he talk about your sex life? Is there some issue he needs to let out that soothes his anxiety? Is there some problem? Otherwise, it should be like, "Hell yeah, our sex life is great, thanks! That's all she wrote!"
Your pain in adapting to him> his probably minuscule or nonexistent "pain" in adapting to you.
Utilitarian I suppose, but that ain't right and is against the general flow of happiness in this world.
posted by quincunx at 3:56 PM on October 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
Is he embarrassed by your "puritanical American-ness" in front of his family/social circle? If so, fuck him, he shouldn't have chosen to be with an American.
Is it extremely painful to him to refrain from kissing someone? (Doesn't sound like it if he can't even fucking remember it happening!)
Is it absolutely necessary that he talk about your sex life? Is there some issue he needs to let out that soothes his anxiety? Is there some problem? Otherwise, it should be like, "Hell yeah, our sex life is great, thanks! That's all she wrote!"
Your pain in adapting to him> his probably minuscule or nonexistent "pain" in adapting to you.
Utilitarian I suppose, but that ain't right and is against the general flow of happiness in this world.
posted by quincunx at 3:56 PM on October 9, 2015 [3 favorites]
Your husband needs to respect your boundaries. It's as simple as that. If you don't feel comfortable, he shouldn't do it. Just as if, for instance, you didn't feel comfortable giving blow jobs, then he shouldn't insist you do it anyway.
posted by MexicanYenta at 4:02 PM on October 9, 2015
posted by MexicanYenta at 4:02 PM on October 9, 2015
Hey, there is no country on Earth where it's just normal for a man to leave his pregnant wife at home to go out dancing alone with another woman and kiss her somewhere he's too drunk to remember. That's not to say he did anything wrong necessarily, but wherever he comes from he's enjoying a great deal of freedom there, and you shouldn't let him use your relative conservatism to fool you otherwise.
posted by cincinnatus c at 4:16 PM on October 9, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by cincinnatus c at 4:16 PM on October 9, 2015 [11 favorites]
I've been thinking about this and decided I can't have any opinion about any of these points, really, without knowing more about both of you.
I lived for a long time in Europe after growing up in the US, and I know that values on these points really can be quite a bit different. No right and wrong, just different. Europeans are rather less absolute on a lot of issues than Americans are, generally speaking-- although there are cultural areas where it is precisely the opposite.
My ex husband was European, and something I really wish I had done was to sit down early in our marriage with a therapist or a mediator of some kind (or even just together) and talked about all the ways we saw the world-- infidelity, children, what does family look like at 40?, attitudes towards divorce. Instead, we both kind of assumed that love would be enough to get us through any potential differences. But it wasn't, in the end. If we had known earlier about those differences, it may be that our marriage still would have ended but we would have had a much better vocabulary to understand each other.
The biggest thing I learned is that most human being secretly believe their childhood and cultural values are "right", even if they see themselves as open minded. When things are good-- no problem with that. But if a relationship is in conflict, people tend to retreat to what they feel as the moral/emotional high ground. The only antidote I've found is being quite explicit about those assumptions so you can have a genuine conversation about them.
posted by frumiousb at 6:42 PM on October 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
I lived for a long time in Europe after growing up in the US, and I know that values on these points really can be quite a bit different. No right and wrong, just different. Europeans are rather less absolute on a lot of issues than Americans are, generally speaking-- although there are cultural areas where it is precisely the opposite.
My ex husband was European, and something I really wish I had done was to sit down early in our marriage with a therapist or a mediator of some kind (or even just together) and talked about all the ways we saw the world-- infidelity, children, what does family look like at 40?, attitudes towards divorce. Instead, we both kind of assumed that love would be enough to get us through any potential differences. But it wasn't, in the end. If we had known earlier about those differences, it may be that our marriage still would have ended but we would have had a much better vocabulary to understand each other.
The biggest thing I learned is that most human being secretly believe their childhood and cultural values are "right", even if they see themselves as open minded. When things are good-- no problem with that. But if a relationship is in conflict, people tend to retreat to what they feel as the moral/emotional high ground. The only antidote I've found is being quite explicit about those assumptions so you can have a genuine conversation about them.
posted by frumiousb at 6:42 PM on October 9, 2015 [6 favorites]
I just felt in reading your question that it was SO much more about whether you could trust his love and commitment than about the specifics you are fighting about.
So, NO - do not do tit-for-tat! You will feel yucky, either because you will be doing something that makes you, personally, uncomfortable, because even if you do enjoy it you will feel guilty, because you are using third party, doing something because of your husband's behavior not because of your truly feelings about them and also don't do it because it will probably not teach your husband a lesson.
Construcing a detailed set of compromises won't work either - it will give him that ticking time bomb feeling and you still be worried that you missed an issue or that he isn't following through or that he is following the letter but not the intent of the deal.
What you do need to work on your marriage that you can feel more confident that he is really there for you - he understands and cares about your feelings on these issues and that you feel like you understand where he is coming from and can trust him when he says that what he does isn't undermining your relationship. I think Sue Johnson's work on emotionally focused couples therapy would be right on target for you. There is an international network of therapist trained her approach at the ICEEFT. Consider scheduling a vacation to attend one of the Hold Me Tight weekend workshops which are aimed at couples who want to improve a basically strong marriage. There are certainly how-to book by Sue Johnson and other attachement focused therapists but I think a interpersonal experience led by a third party is much more powerful than just trying to read a book together.
posted by metahawk at 8:59 PM on October 9, 2015
So, NO - do not do tit-for-tat! You will feel yucky, either because you will be doing something that makes you, personally, uncomfortable, because even if you do enjoy it you will feel guilty, because you are using third party, doing something because of your husband's behavior not because of your truly feelings about them and also don't do it because it will probably not teach your husband a lesson.
Construcing a detailed set of compromises won't work either - it will give him that ticking time bomb feeling and you still be worried that you missed an issue or that he isn't following through or that he is following the letter but not the intent of the deal.
What you do need to work on your marriage that you can feel more confident that he is really there for you - he understands and cares about your feelings on these issues and that you feel like you understand where he is coming from and can trust him when he says that what he does isn't undermining your relationship. I think Sue Johnson's work on emotionally focused couples therapy would be right on target for you. There is an international network of therapist trained her approach at the ICEEFT. Consider scheduling a vacation to attend one of the Hold Me Tight weekend workshops which are aimed at couples who want to improve a basically strong marriage. There are certainly how-to book by Sue Johnson and other attachement focused therapists but I think a interpersonal experience led by a third party is much more powerful than just trying to read a book together.
posted by metahawk at 8:59 PM on October 9, 2015
This thread is closed to new comments.
Boundaries aren't going to be respected (or remembered!)if you black out or claim you can't recall what happened. It sounds like he prefers not to be responsible or honest?
I don;t get the "kind of" cheating idea either- but it sounds like you need to go over the specific dos and don'ts you are comfortable with, and make it clear that "i don't remember" is not a good answer.
posted by TenaciousB at 9:31 AM on October 9, 2015 [18 favorites]