Sister Getting Hitched, Her Plans Have Thrown Me.
August 14, 2015 2:39 PM Subscribe
My sister (early 50's) is getting married for the second time next year. Last week she sent me a shared doc with early wedding plans that I'm not onboard with because they involve my kids and I being assigned fairly substantial jobs without her ever asking. And the trouble ensues from there.
Her shared plans include:
* I oversee getting guests where they need to be and seating, etc. as well as ensuring the day runs smoothly.
* One of my daughters is the photographer.
* Another kid is the DJ.
* All three of my kids will customize and serve ice cream sundaes to all the other guests.
After I read this over, I emailed her that my kids and I would be happy to pitch in as we could, but I would have preferred to be invited as a guest and then I could volunteer.
She's very angry with this response, in particular that my response was curt and upsetting to her.
My kids are all annoyed that she didn't even ask them and instead went through me (they're 23, 21 and 17; old enough to run their own social lives). They're also none too pleased about being told they're serving dessert to the other guests and feel it's a bit insulting. The DJ and photographer kids are also pissed because those are serious jobs that people hire (and again, she didn't even ask, just wrote this was their assignment). I have no desire to be overseeing seating arrangements, either.
So, how to best handle this? I think she's being unreasonable and she has a history of being very self-serving and telling the kids and me to do things for her. She wants a super low key day, an intimate event, so a small church wedding and reception in the church hall. Money is tight but they are catering and serving wine (and apparently ice cream sundaes). Wedding favors will be one vase with flowers per table of 8 (so 7 people get no favor).
I would like to deal with this fairly and affectionately, but need some help with the script.
Her shared plans include:
* I oversee getting guests where they need to be and seating, etc. as well as ensuring the day runs smoothly.
* One of my daughters is the photographer.
* Another kid is the DJ.
* All three of my kids will customize and serve ice cream sundaes to all the other guests.
After I read this over, I emailed her that my kids and I would be happy to pitch in as we could, but I would have preferred to be invited as a guest and then I could volunteer.
She's very angry with this response, in particular that my response was curt and upsetting to her.
My kids are all annoyed that she didn't even ask them and instead went through me (they're 23, 21 and 17; old enough to run their own social lives). They're also none too pleased about being told they're serving dessert to the other guests and feel it's a bit insulting. The DJ and photographer kids are also pissed because those are serious jobs that people hire (and again, she didn't even ask, just wrote this was their assignment). I have no desire to be overseeing seating arrangements, either.
So, how to best handle this? I think she's being unreasonable and she has a history of being very self-serving and telling the kids and me to do things for her. She wants a super low key day, an intimate event, so a small church wedding and reception in the church hall. Money is tight but they are catering and serving wine (and apparently ice cream sundaes). Wedding favors will be one vase with flowers per table of 8 (so 7 people get no favor).
I would like to deal with this fairly and affectionately, but need some help with the script.
You can't control her reaction. Of course she's going to be pissed..
I think, "It will not be possible for me to serve as the day-of coordinator, and it will not be possible for my children to provide photography, DJ, or serve dessert. I am happy to help you make other plans for these functions (if, indeed, you are)." is perfectly polite and fair.
posted by muddgirl at 2:49 PM on August 14, 2015 [8 favorites]
I think, "It will not be possible for me to serve as the day-of coordinator, and it will not be possible for my children to provide photography, DJ, or serve dessert. I am happy to help you make other plans for these functions (if, indeed, you are)." is perfectly polite and fair.
posted by muddgirl at 2:49 PM on August 14, 2015 [8 favorites]
Ugh, bad edit. I meant, of course she's going to be pissed because she wanted free labor and you are enforcing your boundaries. That's not your problem, though.
posted by muddgirl at 2:50 PM on August 14, 2015 [25 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 2:50 PM on August 14, 2015 [25 favorites]
"I'm very happy to hear of your marriage and we all wish you happiness with your new love. However, I'm afraid that none of the arrangements you laid out in your note will be possible." Never explain, never apologize.
For what it's worth, this is NUTS. Like, you may look into suggesting she have herself evaluated if this note is part of a larger pattern of bizarre deeds. This is actually ill-person type behavior.
posted by BigLankyBastard at 2:50 PM on August 14, 2015 [66 favorites]
For what it's worth, this is NUTS. Like, you may look into suggesting she have herself evaluated if this note is part of a larger pattern of bizarre deeds. This is actually ill-person type behavior.
posted by BigLankyBastard at 2:50 PM on August 14, 2015 [66 favorites]
Go you! What a bridezilla.
You can't stop her being mad, but what you can probably improve is clarity. At the moment your email Could be read by her as "I'm not specifying what exactly I am willing to do. Depending on how nicely you grovel I might do more, or less for you."
I think both you and she would benefit from you telling her what tasks you will perform to which extent.
Personally, I would also avoid being the go between between my adult kids and the bridezilla. You are not a one stop shop dispensing your family's skills as a favour. Tell her to ask your kids yourself, maybe?
Either way, you and your kids should be on the same page about what you tell her.
Also, remain calm. Even if yoyr whole extended family starts arguing at you. Weddings seem to make everyone stupid and hysterical. Rise above it and stay calm, positive and clear. Don't yell, say "no, that won't work for me. You'll have to find someone else. But how's your dress coming along? It sounds great!" in a friendly but firm fashion. They'll get over it or die mad.
posted by Omnomnom at 2:51 PM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
You can't stop her being mad, but what you can probably improve is clarity. At the moment your email Could be read by her as "I'm not specifying what exactly I am willing to do. Depending on how nicely you grovel I might do more, or less for you."
I think both you and she would benefit from you telling her what tasks you will perform to which extent.
Personally, I would also avoid being the go between between my adult kids and the bridezilla. You are not a one stop shop dispensing your family's skills as a favour. Tell her to ask your kids yourself, maybe?
Either way, you and your kids should be on the same page about what you tell her.
Also, remain calm. Even if yoyr whole extended family starts arguing at you. Weddings seem to make everyone stupid and hysterical. Rise above it and stay calm, positive and clear. Don't yell, say "no, that won't work for me. You'll have to find someone else. But how's your dress coming along? It sounds great!" in a friendly but firm fashion. They'll get over it or die mad.
posted by Omnomnom at 2:51 PM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I think you already were very very exceptionally fair and kind. You answered without laughing. Or getting angry and using curse words. That's already amazing!!
Your sister has a year to save and plan. Because this is family politics, and your children are (mostly) freshly minted adults in the dynamic, the correct response is for you to communicate that your children are looking forward to being guests and they simply can not take on professional wedding responsibilities.
Your sister is looking for drama, not help with her wedding. What you describe is a $2500 to $6000 wedding. Your sister should start saving now if that's what she wants.
You should not help further, either. She's not planning a wedding, she's setting up folks to argue with and blame down the road.
Stay away from this.
posted by jbenben at 2:52 PM on August 14, 2015 [60 favorites]
Your sister has a year to save and plan. Because this is family politics, and your children are (mostly) freshly minted adults in the dynamic, the correct response is for you to communicate that your children are looking forward to being guests and they simply can not take on professional wedding responsibilities.
Your sister is looking for drama, not help with her wedding. What you describe is a $2500 to $6000 wedding. Your sister should start saving now if that's what she wants.
You should not help further, either. She's not planning a wedding, she's setting up folks to argue with and blame down the road.
Stay away from this.
posted by jbenben at 2:52 PM on August 14, 2015 [60 favorites]
I would strike through those tasks on the shared doc and not discuss it beyond that.
Having a wedding that you can't afford is a recipe for unhappiness. It's going to get worse, not better. Stay as far away from this as you can.
posted by 26.2 at 2:52 PM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
Having a wedding that you can't afford is a recipe for unhappiness. It's going to get worse, not better. Stay as far away from this as you can.
posted by 26.2 at 2:52 PM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
You're basically being asked to save them the expense of a day-of coordinator (and possibly more if you're assigning seats beforehand), DJ, photographer, and servers. All told, that's cutting something like $5000 off the cost of her wedding. Does she plan on doing any $5000 favors for you any time soon? If you're traveling to the wedding, is she covering the travel costs?
My wife and I acted as day-of coordinators and servers at a friend's wedding, but only when they agreed to do the same for us at ours.
posted by LionIndex at 2:53 PM on August 14, 2015 [26 favorites]
My wife and I acted as day-of coordinators and servers at a friend's wedding, but only when they agreed to do the same for us at ours.
posted by LionIndex at 2:53 PM on August 14, 2015 [26 favorites]
Best answer: It's a compliment to be asked yet incredibly off-putting to be assigned. The good thing about the former is the ability to easily say no and get off the hook whereas the latter is just rough for all parties.
I'm not sure if this is a rarity (she's so excited that she lost her social awareness), socially awkward or just a jerk. I agree that just saying how excited you are for her and so happy, that you and your kids want to be there to support her but won't be able to work the event. You certainly can sound apologetic but there's no need to be overly so. It's going to be a hard conversation: if she had a brief lapse of judgment, it shouldn't be a big deal. If it's a larger issue, then it's nothing new if always hard. I wish you all luck!
posted by smorgasbord at 2:59 PM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure if this is a rarity (she's so excited that she lost her social awareness), socially awkward or just a jerk. I agree that just saying how excited you are for her and so happy, that you and your kids want to be there to support her but won't be able to work the event. You certainly can sound apologetic but there's no need to be overly so. It's going to be a hard conversation: if she had a brief lapse of judgment, it shouldn't be a big deal. If it's a larger issue, then it's nothing new if always hard. I wish you all luck!
posted by smorgasbord at 2:59 PM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
I also think you should share your question at http://www.etiquettehell.com/smf/index.php?board=83.0
The ladies there will be all over it.
posted by Omnomnom at 2:59 PM on August 14, 2015 [8 favorites]
The ladies there will be all over it.
posted by Omnomnom at 2:59 PM on August 14, 2015 [8 favorites]
I actually don't think the volunteering people for jobs is that bad. I also think your email saying you'd have been preferred to be invited and then volunteer seemed reasonable. She then had an opportunity to say "Oh my God, you're right! I both need you guys' help and thought it would be nice to include family members in this intimate, hands-on day. I'd be really grateful if you guys could help us out". She didn't though. If I were you I would probably phone her with a clear idea of what I wanted to achieve and what my red lines were and have a discussion about it.
To be honest how onerous this task is IMHO depends on the scale of the wedding. How many attendees are we talking about? Three young adults making a few sundaes for 30 family members and friends is one thing. Acting as DJ for 150 people is another thing entirely.
posted by bimbam at 3:01 PM on August 14, 2015 [12 favorites]
To be honest how onerous this task is IMHO depends on the scale of the wedding. How many attendees are we talking about? Three young adults making a few sundaes for 30 family members and friends is one thing. Acting as DJ for 150 people is another thing entirely.
posted by bimbam at 3:01 PM on August 14, 2015 [12 favorites]
PS - if pressed, you should overuse the phrase "professional wedding responsibilities" to repeatedly communicate why it is not appropriate to have guests fulfill these roles, y'know, without directly calling her cheap or anything.
Professionals get paid to deal with these very heavy event responsibilities. No way should regular folks or guests or anyone inexperienced take on these roles. The responsibility involved in event logistics, entertainment, and catering is huge and beyond the scope of favors family typically do for each other. That's why professionals exist. These are not roles for lay-people.
- How many guests are expected?
posted by jbenben at 3:04 PM on August 14, 2015 [17 favorites]
Professionals get paid to deal with these very heavy event responsibilities. No way should regular folks or guests or anyone inexperienced take on these roles. The responsibility involved in event logistics, entertainment, and catering is huge and beyond the scope of favors family typically do for each other. That's why professionals exist. These are not roles for lay-people.
- How many guests are expected?
posted by jbenben at 3:04 PM on August 14, 2015 [17 favorites]
She's very angry with this response
I'm sure she was, given that you maybe aren't going to do exactly what she wants.
Email her back asap, so she can't complain that you didn't give her time to sort things out, detailing exactly what you're all prepared to do. Do this over email, so there's no "well, you said on the phone [thing you totally didn't say], as it sounds like she's the sort to disregard a boundary. It's harder to do that when you can point to the email that explicitly states you won't be X'ing the Y.
In the email, state what you're prepared to do on the day, and that you are prepared to do these things and nothing else. I'd also state that you're not prepared to do the things she requested previously, but don't suggest what she should do about that fact - that's on her to sort out.
Something like:
"Dear [sister's name],
I've spoken to the kids, and here is a list of things that we're prepared to do on the day.
I will [do this]. I will not be available to [do that]. Kid 1 will [do that]. Kid 2 & Kid 3 are unavailable to take part in the ceremony. I'm afraid it won't be possible to accommodate your previous request.
Let me know if you want either myself or Kid 1 to [again, reiterate exactly what you're prepared to do].
kinetic."
You can't control her thoughts, reactions, or emotions. They are all on her. If she throws a tantrum at this, then let her. Don't try to mollycoddle her reaction, because it's her reaction to have. She gets to feel how she feels. It's telling that she went for "I am upset" in reaction to your statement that you weren't going to be assisting, rather than apologising or asking if there's some way you were prepared to help. I wonder if that was a guilt trip.
Stick to your boundaries but do make sure to drive them home to her. Do this as clearly as you can, so there's no wiggle room. She's taking a mile and you haven't even given her the inch.
posted by Solomon at 3:07 PM on August 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'm sure she was, given that you maybe aren't going to do exactly what she wants.
Email her back asap, so she can't complain that you didn't give her time to sort things out, detailing exactly what you're all prepared to do. Do this over email, so there's no "well, you said on the phone [thing you totally didn't say], as it sounds like she's the sort to disregard a boundary. It's harder to do that when you can point to the email that explicitly states you won't be X'ing the Y.
In the email, state what you're prepared to do on the day, and that you are prepared to do these things and nothing else. I'd also state that you're not prepared to do the things she requested previously, but don't suggest what she should do about that fact - that's on her to sort out.
Something like:
"Dear [sister's name],
I've spoken to the kids, and here is a list of things that we're prepared to do on the day.
I will [do this]. I will not be available to [do that]. Kid 1 will [do that]. Kid 2 & Kid 3 are unavailable to take part in the ceremony. I'm afraid it won't be possible to accommodate your previous request.
Let me know if you want either myself or Kid 1 to [again, reiterate exactly what you're prepared to do].
kinetic."
You can't control her thoughts, reactions, or emotions. They are all on her. If she throws a tantrum at this, then let her. Don't try to mollycoddle her reaction, because it's her reaction to have. She gets to feel how she feels. It's telling that she went for "I am upset" in reaction to your statement that you weren't going to be assisting, rather than apologising or asking if there's some way you were prepared to help. I wonder if that was a guilt trip.
Stick to your boundaries but do make sure to drive them home to her. Do this as clearly as you can, so there's no wiggle room. She's taking a mile and you haven't even given her the inch.
posted by Solomon at 3:07 PM on August 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
The responsibility involved in event logistics, entertainment, and catering is huge and beyond the scope of favors family typically do for each other.
In addition to the rudeness, this is really important. If they mess up in any way, they can end up being described as "the photographer/DJ that ruined my wedding," which is not an appropriate place to put family members that aren't volunteering for the duty.
posted by Candleman at 3:09 PM on August 14, 2015 [54 favorites]
In addition to the rudeness, this is really important. If they mess up in any way, they can end up being described as "the photographer/DJ that ruined my wedding," which is not an appropriate place to put family members that aren't volunteering for the duty.
posted by Candleman at 3:09 PM on August 14, 2015 [54 favorites]
Jbenben is right. If she's that unreasonable now, imagine how she's going to be when none of the 1900 wedding pictures make her nose look good, and the ice cream sundaes run out of chocolate sprinkles, her favourite song is not on the CD and YOU HAVE ALL RUINED HER DAY AND SHE HATES YOU!!!
posted by Omnomnom at 3:09 PM on August 14, 2015 [44 favorites]
posted by Omnomnom at 3:09 PM on August 14, 2015 [44 favorites]
Best answer: "I'm sorry you found my response curt and upsetting. I wasn't trying to upset you, but email often comes across as cold and unfriendly. So, too, does being sent a spreadsheet with assigned tasks instead of being personally asked if I would be able to help with things.
I would like to help make this day special for you, but we need to have a conversation about how that might work in a way that would still allow me to celebrate with you, rather than feeling like I was only invited to be free labour. The kids are also adults (or nearly adults) and I can't make promises on their behalf. You'll have to have the same kind of conversation with them, as well."
posted by jacquilynne at 3:10 PM on August 14, 2015 [114 favorites]
I would like to help make this day special for you, but we need to have a conversation about how that might work in a way that would still allow me to celebrate with you, rather than feeling like I was only invited to be free labour. The kids are also adults (or nearly adults) and I can't make promises on their behalf. You'll have to have the same kind of conversation with them, as well."
posted by jacquilynne at 3:10 PM on August 14, 2015 [114 favorites]
If you get family and friends to take on big, $1500 responsibilities like "wedding photographer", you pay them. Maybe not full whack, but you definitely pay them.
Do your kids even have professional-level dj/photography skills, or is this just a random allocation? How are they going to dj and take photos while making sundaes? Your sister is nuts, and I say that as a former Bridezilla who had friends DJing at our wedding.
posted by tinkletown at 3:11 PM on August 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
Do your kids even have professional-level dj/photography skills, or is this just a random allocation? How are they going to dj and take photos while making sundaes? Your sister is nuts, and I say that as a former Bridezilla who had friends DJing at our wedding.
posted by tinkletown at 3:11 PM on August 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yeah, Nthing that this is absolutely bananas! A low-key wedding does not equal forcing family to run the wedding. It seems she can only afford a low-key wedding (which is fine) but wants a professional wedding and is asking for free work to get there.
It's crap. It's insane. Don't do it. Don't let your kids do it. Tell her you would be happy to be guests and maybe help with {mailing invites, signing thank you cards, setting tables.} but that you cannot be doing the other tasks. End of conversation.
She can have a wonderfully happy, intimate wedding with some fun snapshots from guests, music playing in the background, and people making their own ice cream sundaes.
posted by Crystalinne at 3:16 PM on August 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
It's crap. It's insane. Don't do it. Don't let your kids do it. Tell her you would be happy to be guests and maybe help with {mailing invites, signing thank you cards, setting tables.} but that you cannot be doing the other tasks. End of conversation.
She can have a wonderfully happy, intimate wedding with some fun snapshots from guests, music playing in the background, and people making their own ice cream sundaes.
posted by Crystalinne at 3:16 PM on August 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
This takes some serious gall. Most people, and especially someone who's presumably had a Big Fancy Wedding before since they've been married before, know that these are $$$ paid gigs. Even as apprentice/relatively amateur jobs a DJ would get several hundred bucks(up to way more if they're renting or supplying sound gear) and a photographer is never under $1000, even if they're an assistant trying to move up or someone straight out of school. I am a paid DJ, and several friends of mine are pro photographers. One graduated from school and went directly into shooting weddings after basically interning at that while in school, and was even getting significantly paid while they were in school. Like, thousands of dollars paid.
This might seem ranty, but my point is that this is entirely about cheaping out and should be treated as such. She knows exactly what she's doing and thinks she can cut this corner. I also, speaking from experience, think she's going to expect a perfect flawless thousands of dollars job at all the requested(or really, ordered) tasks.
I have to agree with jbenben here that you're essentially being set up to fail, if anything is less than 300% perfect you will be blamed and drama'd at for likely years to come.
By low key she means "everyone else do the work for me" which isn't inherently bad, but generally you pay people for that.
I would not have been capable of being as nice as you. My immediately response would have been "ok, well kid 1 bills out at X rate an hour for that, and kid 2 bills out at Y rate..." with like questions about the venue, number of attendees, etc in absolutely straight faced earnest that you were trying to figure out say, what speakers needed to be rented and how big of an amp, lights, etc. Were there any specific shots she was dreaming of? Kid 2 said they might have to rent a lens to get a shot like Z. Serious logistics go in to everything mentioned. She probably wants like, fancy instagram-worthy artisanal sundaes with farmers market ice cream and fresh fruit and cute shavings of chocolate right? What prep space is available?
Yea, the more i think on this the snarkier i get, but i would have replied with a GIGANTIC list of logistics questions.
posted by emptythought at 3:54 PM on August 14, 2015 [17 favorites]
This might seem ranty, but my point is that this is entirely about cheaping out and should be treated as such. She knows exactly what she's doing and thinks she can cut this corner. I also, speaking from experience, think she's going to expect a perfect flawless thousands of dollars job at all the requested(or really, ordered) tasks.
I have to agree with jbenben here that you're essentially being set up to fail, if anything is less than 300% perfect you will be blamed and drama'd at for likely years to come.
By low key she means "everyone else do the work for me" which isn't inherently bad, but generally you pay people for that.
I would not have been capable of being as nice as you. My immediately response would have been "ok, well kid 1 bills out at X rate an hour for that, and kid 2 bills out at Y rate..." with like questions about the venue, number of attendees, etc in absolutely straight faced earnest that you were trying to figure out say, what speakers needed to be rented and how big of an amp, lights, etc. Were there any specific shots she was dreaming of? Kid 2 said they might have to rent a lens to get a shot like Z. Serious logistics go in to everything mentioned. She probably wants like, fancy instagram-worthy artisanal sundaes with farmers market ice cream and fresh fruit and cute shavings of chocolate right? What prep space is available?
Yea, the more i think on this the snarkier i get, but i would have replied with a GIGANTIC list of logistics questions.
posted by emptythought at 3:54 PM on August 14, 2015 [17 favorites]
I'm with emptythought - send back a price list.
Wedding coordinator services - $2000
Wedding photography package - $5000
Wedding DJ package - $1000 for <30 guests, $2000 for >30 guests, etc.
Catering services - dessert only - $100 per guest
posted by medusa at 3:58 PM on August 14, 2015 [6 favorites]
Wedding coordinator services - $2000
Wedding photography package - $5000
Wedding DJ package - $1000 for <30 guests, $2000 for >30 guests, etc.
Catering services - dessert only - $100 per guest
posted by medusa at 3:58 PM on August 14, 2015 [6 favorites]
Best answer: I am a professional singer. I sing at weddings all the time. I have been asked if I would sing at family members' weddings for free, and I have always been thrilled to do so. I would be LIVID if I were simply informed that I would be performing. Not just no, but fuck no.
posted by KathrynT at 4:01 PM on August 14, 2015 [57 favorites]
posted by KathrynT at 4:01 PM on August 14, 2015 [57 favorites]
Oh hell NO. No, she doesn't get to demand people do what she commands just because she's the bride, no she doesn't get to assign tasks without ASKING ahead of time, no she isn't justified in being angry when folks don't just bow down and do exactly what Her Majesty orders them to do. And this is ten times worse if the wedding is to be more than 20-30 or so miles from your home, meaning you'd have to pay to travel to be her unpaid (and unappreciated!) servants, instead of guests.
For yourself: just keep repeating to her the classic line "no, that won't be possible". No apologies, no explanations, just "that won't be possible", repeated over and over. For your kids: ignore it, as if Sister had never written a word about them.
posted by easily confused at 4:06 PM on August 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
For yourself: just keep repeating to her the classic line "no, that won't be possible". No apologies, no explanations, just "that won't be possible", repeated over and over. For your kids: ignore it, as if Sister had never written a word about them.
posted by easily confused at 4:06 PM on August 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
she has a history of being very self-serving and telling the kids and me to do things for her
How do you usually respond? If you usually decline, your typical script for that is probably fine for this situation too. Even if it's "LOL no". If you usually give in, she's just treating this situation the same way as always, and it's not at all surprising she's pissed that you're suddenly enforcing boundaries after years of being a pushover. You need to set up and enforce clear rules for this kind of behaviour, like "if you assign me a task instead of asking me, I will not do it, even if I would have if you'd asked nicely". If you're consistent in forcing her to ask rather than demand favours, she'll eventually learn to treat you like an independent adult instead of a slave. Or she won't, in which case you're free to be as rude as you like when responding to her rude demands.
posted by randomnity at 4:28 PM on August 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
How do you usually respond? If you usually decline, your typical script for that is probably fine for this situation too. Even if it's "LOL no". If you usually give in, she's just treating this situation the same way as always, and it's not at all surprising she's pissed that you're suddenly enforcing boundaries after years of being a pushover. You need to set up and enforce clear rules for this kind of behaviour, like "if you assign me a task instead of asking me, I will not do it, even if I would have if you'd asked nicely". If you're consistent in forcing her to ask rather than demand favours, she'll eventually learn to treat you like an independent adult instead of a slave. Or she won't, in which case you're free to be as rude as you like when responding to her rude demands.
posted by randomnity at 4:28 PM on August 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
"What? Ask someone else to do these things, we aren't interested."
posted by oceanjesse at 4:33 PM on August 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by oceanjesse at 4:33 PM on August 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
She's in her early 50's and it's her second wedding, so she's more than old enough and experienced enough to know better. She can ask for your help but she can't demand it, and assigning these these sorts of tasks to you and your kids without discussing it ahead of time is setting you all up for a train wreck. She may be blinded by her desire to throw an awesome wedding despite her lack of money, but she's balancing these desires on your backs, and that's an outrageous imposition. You need to tell her NO, clearly and unambiguously. She might ask you to throw a bridal shower, host a bachelorette party, give a reading at the ceremony, or offer a toast at the reception, but telling you that you and your kids are the hired and unpaid help and you all are going to be her day-of coordinator, her music/party leader, her photographer, and her fucking ice cream sundae servers -- NO! Not happening.
I really like jacquilynne's suggested reply. The only thing I would add is an absolutely unambiguous declarative statement: "No. [Full stop] We love you and want to celebrate this day with you, but we cannot do the jobs you have assigned to us."
posted by mosk at 4:56 PM on August 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
I really like jacquilynne's suggested reply. The only thing I would add is an absolutely unambiguous declarative statement: "No. [Full stop] We love you and want to celebrate this day with you, but we cannot do the jobs you have assigned to us."
posted by mosk at 4:56 PM on August 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
"Unfortunately it won't be possible for me to participate in your wedding as anything other than a guest. However the kids are pleased you've chosen to hire them for their services. X's photography packages start from $2000 and a three hour gig with Y as a DJ is around $1500. Here are their numbers so you can contact them to discuss your requirements in detail. Look forward to hearing from you!"
posted by Jubey at 4:59 PM on August 14, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 4:59 PM on August 14, 2015 [12 favorites]
It seems to me like it really depends on the results you want, in terms of the ongoing relationship. Is there any chance you can have a sit-down with her in person, take her to lunch or something, and express how practically impossible a lot of this is? I really don't think that for your kids to be committed as DJ and photographer, for instance, is reasonable at all and further I think it is perfectly OK for you to convey this, not the kids. Then perhaps you can say what you ARE prepared to do-- i.e. typical responsibilities for a maid/matron of honor or best man type of figure.
It does sound like she has become kind of a bridezilla and she's not thinking straight about any of this. My script would be something like, "The usual responsibilities for a member of a wedding party are like this and I am prepared to go above and beyond in x y and z respects because I am so happy for you but some of this other stuff is just too much. But I'm so thrilled for you! Do you have a honeymoon planned?"
All of this assumes you want the relationship to be cordial while maintaining your boundaries.
posted by BibiRose at 4:59 PM on August 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
It does sound like she has become kind of a bridezilla and she's not thinking straight about any of this. My script would be something like, "The usual responsibilities for a member of a wedding party are like this and I am prepared to go above and beyond in x y and z respects because I am so happy for you but some of this other stuff is just too much. But I'm so thrilled for you! Do you have a honeymoon planned?"
All of this assumes you want the relationship to be cordial while maintaining your boundaries.
posted by BibiRose at 4:59 PM on August 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
Also, I'm not sure how the bride is expecting your children to simultaneously spin tunes and shoot photos whilst serving ice cream sundaes? You must have exceptionally talented kids!
posted by Jubey at 5:02 PM on August 14, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 5:02 PM on August 14, 2015 [12 favorites]
I think trying to formulate a polite way to say no is, frankly, kind of crazy, because it's enabling crazy. You need to tell her outright that she's behaving in an appallingly rude manner and also acting completely bonkers, and it's not acceptable. She'll lash out at you, as she already has, but much like terrorists, there is no negotiating with crazy. Even a direct "no" isn't going to solve matters completely if you don't make her aware of how unacceptable she's being, and how she will have to realign herself into "normal decent human-being" territory in order to get you to engage.
She's your sister, not a client or customer. Polite emails that would be great for dealing with nutty people in a corporate context, where you can't actually tell them "shape up or ship out", are going to be counter-productive in this one. A lot of what people are reccomending so far is pretty passive-aggressive, which is sometimes a great approach in other contexts, but not this one. You're not going to gain anything from pretending she's at all reasonable.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 5:11 PM on August 14, 2015 [6 favorites]
She's your sister, not a client or customer. Polite emails that would be great for dealing with nutty people in a corporate context, where you can't actually tell them "shape up or ship out", are going to be counter-productive in this one. A lot of what people are reccomending so far is pretty passive-aggressive, which is sometimes a great approach in other contexts, but not this one. You're not going to gain anything from pretending she's at all reasonable.
posted by The Master and Margarita Mix at 5:11 PM on August 14, 2015 [6 favorites]
Actually, my response wasn't really designed to be nice. It was more to force the sister to articulate that she has no interest in paying and absolutely is telling, not asking, your family to work for free at her wedding. After which, hopefully, the OP will tell her in no uncertain terms to go fuck herself. Boundaries. It's time.
posted by Jubey at 5:19 PM on August 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 5:19 PM on August 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
In all fairness: I can just about see how a naturally bossy person, in the starry-eyed throes of early wedding planning, could have thoughtlessly done this without meaning any definite ill by it. Especially given that everyone always says, Ask people to help! People love to help!, and signing someone up in a Google Doc is kind of like asking, right? Especially given an ask-vs.-guess culture dynamic. Especially if the guest list is more like 40 people than 150.
If you wanted to shut this down without being confrontational about it, a nice way to put it might be:
Hi Sis! Sorry that earlier email came off as brusque; online isn't always the best way to talk these things out. I think the kids and I were feeling uncomfortable with the idea of being responsible in such a direct way for so many practical tasks, on a day when we were also looking forward to being there for family and actively celebrating with you. Several of those jobs are also pretty mission-critical, and I think it's important to be realistic about what we can competently cover, so that we can make sure the day goes as beautifully as you deserve it to. Having talked to the kids, we'll be happy to help with $THING, and I can definitely pitch in with little jobs leading up to the big day. Janie and Jackie said they could pitch in with $SMALLTHING, I think (although you should check with them directly to confirm). But in the interests of keeping the day and us sane, the photography, DJing and tasks will need to be outsourced to somebody else, I'm afraid. I love you, Sis-- looking forward to celebrating with you!
posted by Bardolph at 6:00 PM on August 14, 2015 [16 favorites]
If you wanted to shut this down without being confrontational about it, a nice way to put it might be:
Hi Sis! Sorry that earlier email came off as brusque; online isn't always the best way to talk these things out. I think the kids and I were feeling uncomfortable with the idea of being responsible in such a direct way for so many practical tasks, on a day when we were also looking forward to being there for family and actively celebrating with you. Several of those jobs are also pretty mission-critical, and I think it's important to be realistic about what we can competently cover, so that we can make sure the day goes as beautifully as you deserve it to. Having talked to the kids, we'll be happy to help with $THING, and I can definitely pitch in with little jobs leading up to the big day. Janie and Jackie said they could pitch in with $SMALLTHING, I think (although you should check with them directly to confirm). But in the interests of keeping the day and us sane, the photography, DJing and tasks will need to be outsourced to somebody else, I'm afraid. I love you, Sis-- looking forward to celebrating with you!
posted by Bardolph at 6:00 PM on August 14, 2015 [16 favorites]
She should have asked, no question, and is bridzillaing in conformity with whatever her weaknesses are ordinarily. But strong 2nd to Bardolph and BibiRose, if the idea is to maintain this relationship.
(I think too that there are ways around most of those tasks to minimize burdens on you guys, if you're prepared to take some of this on. I've been to more than one wedding dj'd via iTunes, and if it's going to be Sweet Caroline etc, that list doesn't take long to pull from any "100 wedding songs" list on the web. MCing speeches etc is another thing, though. Wedding shots, maybe just at the ceremony (with low expectations), and the rest crowdsourced via guests (may come up with neat POVs, anyway). Ice cream = self-serve buffet (although the caterers really could do that). Directing a couple of dozen people toward their seats is different from staying vigilant the whole night. If there aren't a lot of people, and her expectations are low, ie she's really ok with "low key", it can conceivably be done without a ton of sweat.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 6:26 PM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
(I think too that there are ways around most of those tasks to minimize burdens on you guys, if you're prepared to take some of this on. I've been to more than one wedding dj'd via iTunes, and if it's going to be Sweet Caroline etc, that list doesn't take long to pull from any "100 wedding songs" list on the web. MCing speeches etc is another thing, though. Wedding shots, maybe just at the ceremony (with low expectations), and the rest crowdsourced via guests (may come up with neat POVs, anyway). Ice cream = self-serve buffet (although the caterers really could do that). Directing a couple of dozen people toward their seats is different from staying vigilant the whole night. If there aren't a lot of people, and her expectations are low, ie she's really ok with "low key", it can conceivably be done without a ton of sweat.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 6:26 PM on August 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Please don't get into a passive aggressive little game where you say things along the lines of "here is the price for the services that both you and I know you were expecting for free." Just be honest and forthright that there's no way that you are going to do these things and that she needs to ask your kids if they are interested in doing the things she'd like them to do.
posted by Betelgeuse at 6:28 PM on August 14, 2015 [39 favorites]
posted by Betelgeuse at 6:28 PM on August 14, 2015 [39 favorites]
It might help if you could articulate _why_ doing these jobs would not be so great for you. She may be thinking, "Well, they'll be there anyway, what's the difference?" Believe it or not, the difference isn't always obvious to some people.
If you can, maybe explain that this wedding is a huge deal to you and your children, because it's an opportunity to share in her joy, to reconnect with relatives and friends you haven't seen in a while, and to just watch her glow with happiness. That you are looking forward to having long conversations with people, and to dancing, and to hugging her every once in a while. That you want to just drink in how lovely it is that two such deserving people have found each other, and that your kids may even want to flirt with other people (if they are single) or dance with their girlfriends, or appreciate whatever buffet she has set out. That all this takes time, which is so incredibly precious, and that none of you want to waste a single moment.
People get caught up in trying to _accomplish_ things, and don't realize that the point of accomplishing them is to enjoy the good times we earn. Your sister could maybe use some help realizing that the essence of her wedding is people talking, looking around, and connecting with each other, and that by having people doing jobs all the time that could be compromised.
posted by amtho at 7:04 PM on August 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
If you can, maybe explain that this wedding is a huge deal to you and your children, because it's an opportunity to share in her joy, to reconnect with relatives and friends you haven't seen in a while, and to just watch her glow with happiness. That you are looking forward to having long conversations with people, and to dancing, and to hugging her every once in a while. That you want to just drink in how lovely it is that two such deserving people have found each other, and that your kids may even want to flirt with other people (if they are single) or dance with their girlfriends, or appreciate whatever buffet she has set out. That all this takes time, which is so incredibly precious, and that none of you want to waste a single moment.
People get caught up in trying to _accomplish_ things, and don't realize that the point of accomplishing them is to enjoy the good times we earn. Your sister could maybe use some help realizing that the essence of her wedding is people talking, looking around, and connecting with each other, and that by having people doing jobs all the time that could be compromised.
posted by amtho at 7:04 PM on August 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
Concerning your children, the only problem with Jacqueline's response is that it invites your sister, their adult aunt, to bully them individually into being free (non-professional) labor for her wedding event.
Don't throw your children under the bus like that. Make it clear this is inappropriate. It IS inappropriate to expect the youngest in the family to work on her wedding event! It IS wholly inappropriate.
I actually think you covered it in your first response. I don't think you should answer further questions. That just opens the door for negotiation.
If you or your children do more than show up to celebrate, there will be arguments, recriminations, and possibly tears. Take a pass on this family life experience. I'm pretty sure you've already done this dance a few times, it's OK to bow out this time. Don't teach your children they have to agree to obvious trouble. Make sure they're not bullied.
posted by jbenben at 7:16 PM on August 14, 2015 [11 favorites]
Don't throw your children under the bus like that. Make it clear this is inappropriate. It IS inappropriate to expect the youngest in the family to work on her wedding event! It IS wholly inappropriate.
I actually think you covered it in your first response. I don't think you should answer further questions. That just opens the door for negotiation.
If you or your children do more than show up to celebrate, there will be arguments, recriminations, and possibly tears. Take a pass on this family life experience. I'm pretty sure you've already done this dance a few times, it's OK to bow out this time. Don't teach your children they have to agree to obvious trouble. Make sure they're not bullied.
posted by jbenben at 7:16 PM on August 14, 2015 [11 favorites]
Best answer: You asked for help with the script and I'm not sure that further discussion is going to be helpful. The fact that someone accused you of being curt after she assigned you job in a shared doc tells me this person is lacking some basic self awareness. Hopefully this is a short term issue for her heightened by the stress of the wedding. I wouldn't use any script that assumes you'll be invited. People do and say weird crap during wedding planning.
There is nothing wrong with her asking for help. In the right circumstances I've done crazy stuff to help out for someone's wedding - including climbing trees to harvest/pilfer magnolias for a friend's table centerpieces then driving the cut branches across three states. Pitching in at a family party is pretty much de rigueur our house. Yes, there might be a caterer or a band, but if someone in the family spotted the trash bins needing to go out they'd do it without a second thought. For a big party, all of my cousins call and ask what help I need. I'm not horrified that your sister is asking for help, even for these big jobs. The manner in which she's asking tells me she's not reasonable on this topic.
Are you open to simply letting this lie for a bit? You've said no. Why not let things ratchet down a bit before you re-engage.
posted by 26.2 at 8:18 PM on August 14, 2015 [8 favorites]
There is nothing wrong with her asking for help. In the right circumstances I've done crazy stuff to help out for someone's wedding - including climbing trees to harvest/pilfer magnolias for a friend's table centerpieces then driving the cut branches across three states. Pitching in at a family party is pretty much de rigueur our house. Yes, there might be a caterer or a band, but if someone in the family spotted the trash bins needing to go out they'd do it without a second thought. For a big party, all of my cousins call and ask what help I need. I'm not horrified that your sister is asking for help, even for these big jobs. The manner in which she's asking tells me she's not reasonable on this topic.
Are you open to simply letting this lie for a bit? You've said no. Why not let things ratchet down a bit before you re-engage.
posted by 26.2 at 8:18 PM on August 14, 2015 [8 favorites]
"I want you to have the best possible wedding, and I want you to be happy, but I feel that we are not going to enjoy the experience. We need you to ask us what we can do and what we may not be able to do before you assign us tasks. How do you feel about that?"
posted by Nevin at 8:52 PM on August 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Nevin at 8:52 PM on August 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
So, I don't think it's actually so horrible to have family help out with a low-key wedding -- we had some professionals but also many friends and family members who pitched in for our wedding. I don't think it stopped anyone from enjoying the day or getting the chance to connect with each other (actually, the low-key time spent the morning of the wedding frosting cookies and putting together flowers with my bridesmaids, mom, and aunts was really fun and lovely time spent together). But, the key is obviously that we ASKED everyone and gave them full opportunity to say no (or they offered and said "What can we do?" or "If you need a singer for your ceremony, I would love to volunteer!")
If you guys really just don't want to do these jobs, no matter what, I think that is perfectly legitimate and you can say so. If you're willing to do them in some capacity, but don't like the way it was communicated, I would have a conversation with your sister about that issue and see if you can talk it out. If your sister is okay with a low-key version of all of these tasks, I think it could work out okay logisically -- i.e. download one of the many DJ apps for the iPhone and hook it up to an existing sound system at the venue, photography could be taking some shots during the ceremony and then setting up a few signs with an Instagram hashtag at the reception, seating could be making a big sign that says "Mix and mingle - make a new friend!" and letting people select their own seats at the reception, plus helping a couple of elderly grandparents find a spot. Honestly, if we're talking a small group in a church reception hall, all of those things could go just fine. If she wants pro-level services, then it's obviously a no go, but if she's okay with low-key versions, it could be fairly minimal work. All depends on having a conversation about it and feeling her out. Of course, you're never obligated to do any of this, so that part is your call.
posted by rainbowbrite at 10:18 AM on August 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you guys really just don't want to do these jobs, no matter what, I think that is perfectly legitimate and you can say so. If you're willing to do them in some capacity, but don't like the way it was communicated, I would have a conversation with your sister about that issue and see if you can talk it out. If your sister is okay with a low-key version of all of these tasks, I think it could work out okay logisically -- i.e. download one of the many DJ apps for the iPhone and hook it up to an existing sound system at the venue, photography could be taking some shots during the ceremony and then setting up a few signs with an Instagram hashtag at the reception, seating could be making a big sign that says "Mix and mingle - make a new friend!" and letting people select their own seats at the reception, plus helping a couple of elderly grandparents find a spot. Honestly, if we're talking a small group in a church reception hall, all of those things could go just fine. If she wants pro-level services, then it's obviously a no go, but if she's okay with low-key versions, it could be fairly minimal work. All depends on having a conversation about it and feeling her out. Of course, you're never obligated to do any of this, so that part is your call.
posted by rainbowbrite at 10:18 AM on August 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
are you going to be heartbroken if you miss the wedding or if this causes a big rift?
if yes: I would say "I am happy to do (assignment) as my gift to you.... my children are old enough to make their own decisions if they also wish to provide services as a gift"
if no: "Sister, I was planning on attending your wedding as a guest, not the help. I am happy to help with (Smaller errands) but cannot take on (actual job that most brides hire people for). If this upsets you, then I will assume you don't wish for me to attend as a guest".
posted by nakedmolerats at 11:32 AM on August 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
if yes: I would say "I am happy to do (assignment) as my gift to you.... my children are old enough to make their own decisions if they also wish to provide services as a gift"
if no: "Sister, I was planning on attending your wedding as a guest, not the help. I am happy to help with (Smaller errands) but cannot take on (actual job that most brides hire people for). If this upsets you, then I will assume you don't wish for me to attend as a guest".
posted by nakedmolerats at 11:32 AM on August 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't see what the big deal is. Taking photos on a smartphone and plugging in an iPod for some music as well as serving food are not onerous jobs. They are just part of participating in the wedding.
I think you may have some issues with your sister that pre-date the incident, because there is a way simpler and kinder explanation for all of this.
Maybe she thought she asked you already. Maybe you said something like "Sure, I'm happy to help!" and she assumed that meant you were ok with whatever specifics she came up with. Maybe she read an article that said, "Get your friends and family to join in!" and thought it was normal to just assign people jobs. None of us know.
I don't like that most of these responses assume some malice on her part. Being 50 years old and married once before doesn't make you an expert on wedding etiquette or a person with an infallible memory.
I think calling her a "bridezilla", as so many have done, is a sexist stereotype that is being wielded against her. It's disgusting to characterize a simple human mistake in such sexist terms.
Take her out to lunch. Tell her you love her and want to help. Discuss the jobs that need to be done together and come up with a plan for getting them done -- whether by you or someone else. If you love your sister, this the way to support her at this crucial time in her life.
posted by 3491again at 12:28 PM on August 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think you may have some issues with your sister that pre-date the incident, because there is a way simpler and kinder explanation for all of this.
Maybe she thought she asked you already. Maybe you said something like "Sure, I'm happy to help!" and she assumed that meant you were ok with whatever specifics she came up with. Maybe she read an article that said, "Get your friends and family to join in!" and thought it was normal to just assign people jobs. None of us know.
I don't like that most of these responses assume some malice on her part. Being 50 years old and married once before doesn't make you an expert on wedding etiquette or a person with an infallible memory.
I think calling her a "bridezilla", as so many have done, is a sexist stereotype that is being wielded against her. It's disgusting to characterize a simple human mistake in such sexist terms.
Take her out to lunch. Tell her you love her and want to help. Discuss the jobs that need to be done together and come up with a plan for getting them done -- whether by you or someone else. If you love your sister, this the way to support her at this crucial time in her life.
posted by 3491again at 12:28 PM on August 15, 2015 [2 favorites]
Use the broken record. Repeat the phrase you told her over and over again, no matter what she says. The exact same words. No matter how many times you are asked.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:52 PM on August 15, 2015
posted by Ironmouth at 12:52 PM on August 15, 2015
The proper time to discuss scope is when someone asks their family to help out, not after they assign tasks without running the scope by them first.
posted by muddgirl at 12:56 PM on August 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 12:56 PM on August 15, 2015 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: I don't see what the big deal is. Taking photos on a smartphone and plugging in an iPod for some music as well as serving food are not onerous jobs. They are just part of participating in the wedding.
Except it's not taking smartphone photos or plugging in an iPod. She also expects them to serve dessert instead of actually sitting with guests and having dessert.
She never asked if we wanted to do any of this or help in any way; she sent me a list of our jobs with no wedding invitation.
I think you may have some issues with your sister that pre-date the incident, because there is a way simpler and kinder explanation for all of this.
What a bizarre conclusion to jump to! No, we don't have any issues. and up until I got this document, there had been ZERO wedding plans or discussions. I'm not assuming malice but I am assuming selfishness.
posted by kinetic at 2:19 PM on August 15, 2015 [23 favorites]
Except it's not taking smartphone photos or plugging in an iPod. She also expects them to serve dessert instead of actually sitting with guests and having dessert.
She never asked if we wanted to do any of this or help in any way; she sent me a list of our jobs with no wedding invitation.
I think you may have some issues with your sister that pre-date the incident, because there is a way simpler and kinder explanation for all of this.
What a bizarre conclusion to jump to! No, we don't have any issues. and up until I got this document, there had been ZERO wedding plans or discussions. I'm not assuming malice but I am assuming selfishness.
posted by kinetic at 2:19 PM on August 15, 2015 [23 favorites]
I don't see what the big deal is. Taking photos on a smartphone and plugging in an iPod for some music as well as serving food are not onerous jobs. They are just part of participating in the wedding.
If you think that level of participation or professionalism in this stuff is all that's expected here then hahahahahahah you haven't dealt with a request like this before.
I'd literally bet anything i own that she expects professional level services, even just going on what's been described so far. There's just no way that someone who asks for this means that.
posted by emptythought at 4:03 PM on August 15, 2015 [15 favorites]
If you think that level of participation or professionalism in this stuff is all that's expected here then hahahahahahah you haven't dealt with a request like this before.
I'd literally bet anything i own that she expects professional level services, even just going on what's been described so far. There's just no way that someone who asks for this means that.
posted by emptythought at 4:03 PM on August 15, 2015 [15 favorites]
I have participated in a "village wedding" where guests were assigned tasks, and it was actually one of the lovelier weddings I've been to, but here's the thing: there was consultation and consent involved. There was a list of tasks posted online and people chose them, rather like a registry; after a while, people were individually approached about unclaimed tasks and asked politely whether they would consider doing x or y. People were consulted, rather than dictated to, about the specifics of their task, and goals were realistic-- nobody demanded perfection. It was also made clear that wedding gifts were not expected; your task was your gift.
On the day, yes there was some stress involved with the setup and smooth running of things-- but there was a spirit of mutual support and communality to it, everyone was admiring everyone else's work and the couple made their appreciation and thanks clear to us. The whole thing was done with tact, consideration and care. (I provided the cheese board, and ended up staying to help with cleanup because it had been such an awesome evening.)
Basically that wedding was an example of the good that results from a balance of emotional labour. The couple may not have paid for our services, but they worked damn hard to make sure everyone was OK with their task and knew that the work they were doing was appreciated, and to make the day enjoyable for all of us.
It sounds like your sister is doing pretty much the opposite of that. If she wants family and friends to help out at her wedding, she needs to realise that:
1. She is asking people to do real work-- because even if you like doing [thing], and even for someone you love, doing an entire wedding's worth of [thing] is never not going to be a pain in the ass. Also, even if money is tight, she needs to at least offer to cover people's costs wherever possible.
2. If people are giving their work as a gift, she loses the right to control the results. She can let them know what's important to her, but if the outcome isn't what she expected she has to smile and say thank you and roll with it.
3. Most importantly, the whole thing is necessarily based on goodwill, and she and her fiancé need to do the emotional labour to make sure that that goodwill is there.
posted by Pallas Athena at 5:45 PM on August 15, 2015 [10 favorites]
On the day, yes there was some stress involved with the setup and smooth running of things-- but there was a spirit of mutual support and communality to it, everyone was admiring everyone else's work and the couple made their appreciation and thanks clear to us. The whole thing was done with tact, consideration and care. (I provided the cheese board, and ended up staying to help with cleanup because it had been such an awesome evening.)
Basically that wedding was an example of the good that results from a balance of emotional labour. The couple may not have paid for our services, but they worked damn hard to make sure everyone was OK with their task and knew that the work they were doing was appreciated, and to make the day enjoyable for all of us.
It sounds like your sister is doing pretty much the opposite of that. If she wants family and friends to help out at her wedding, she needs to realise that:
1. She is asking people to do real work-- because even if you like doing [thing], and even for someone you love, doing an entire wedding's worth of [thing] is never not going to be a pain in the ass. Also, even if money is tight, she needs to at least offer to cover people's costs wherever possible.
2. If people are giving their work as a gift, she loses the right to control the results. She can let them know what's important to her, but if the outcome isn't what she expected she has to smile and say thank you and roll with it.
3. Most importantly, the whole thing is necessarily based on goodwill, and she and her fiancé need to do the emotional labour to make sure that that goodwill is there.
posted by Pallas Athena at 5:45 PM on August 15, 2015 [10 favorites]
Response by poster: Update: because I am unwilling to help and other reasons, she is postponing the wedding.
posted by kinetic at 6:12 AM on August 16, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by kinetic at 6:12 AM on August 16, 2015 [7 favorites]
Wow. There must have been something else seriously wrong with the relationship. Sorry you have to deal with this, and know that it's not your fault in the least. You set a boundary. That's a GOOD thing to do.
posted by Stewriffic at 6:14 AM on August 16, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by Stewriffic at 6:14 AM on August 16, 2015 [10 favorites]
I don't see what the big deal is. Taking photos on a smartphone and plugging in an iPod for some music as well as serving food are not onerous jobs. They are just part of participating in the wedding.
This is not how weddings, beyond the most casual level, work. Wedding vendors charge high rates in part because they know that weddings are unrepeatable events and they need to be able to take care of everything themselves without bothering the couple on their special day. It's a job where you're expected to be professional, avoid any possible problem before it happens, and work without supervision, because the bride shouldn't care about the DJ's electrical power woes or anything else. This means wedding vendors do things like:
Acting as a unpaid wedding coordinator or standing there making sundaes for all the guests is absolutely not "part of participating in the wedding." That is working. Participating in the wedding is "hey I'd be honored if you'd be willing to stand with me during this event and maybe make a short toast."
Even so, you ask people rather than assign them jobs and you make it clear that you're not asking for more than a guest might do at a casual BBQ.
posted by zachlipton at 6:29 AM on August 16, 2015 [11 favorites]
This is not how weddings, beyond the most casual level, work. Wedding vendors charge high rates in part because they know that weddings are unrepeatable events and they need to be able to take care of everything themselves without bothering the couple on their special day. It's a job where you're expected to be professional, avoid any possible problem before it happens, and work without supervision, because the bride shouldn't care about the DJ's electrical power woes or anything else. This means wedding vendors do things like:
- Photographers are crazy about backups. Good ones bring multiple sets of equipment, use cameras that store to two memory cards at once, and/or copy batches of images to another storage device during the event. All to try to ensure they will never have to tell a couple their wedding photos were lost.
- DJs carry extra gear, arrive early to set it all up and test it, and coordinate in advance with the venue to ensure that it will all work properly.
- Caterers bring extra meals because they know that Cousin Berry will forever view it as a personal slight from the the happy couple if he doesn't get a piece of chocolate. They also have relationships with other trusted caterers so they can figure out a last minute plan if the oven dies or the cake gets dropped.
- Everyone involved, if they are a real professional, has backup plans and allows extra time so they are prepared even if their car breaks down, their kid has the flu, they get sick, etc....
Acting as a unpaid wedding coordinator or standing there making sundaes for all the guests is absolutely not "part of participating in the wedding." That is working. Participating in the wedding is "hey I'd be honored if you'd be willing to stand with me during this event and maybe make a short toast."
Even so, you ask people rather than assign them jobs and you make it clear that you're not asking for more than a guest might do at a casual BBQ.
posted by zachlipton at 6:29 AM on August 16, 2015 [11 favorites]
Best answer: Update: because I am unwilling to help and other reasons, she is postponing the wedding.
Holy crap, kinetic, talk about confirmation that you did the right thing here. If she's willing to blame you for her choice to postpone her wedding (what the heck does her fiance think of this postponement?), I can only imagine what would have happened if you'd unwittingly seated someone in the wrong place, or your kid didn't get exactly the photos she was expecting, or your other kid neglected to play the Chicken Dance and she was sure everyone KNEW a wedding didn't count unless the DJ made everyone do the Chicken Dance ...
So sorry you're dealing with all this drama. Really hope you're able to react with a giant "WHEW" here.
posted by DingoMutt at 6:54 AM on August 16, 2015 [13 favorites]
Holy crap, kinetic, talk about confirmation that you did the right thing here. If she's willing to blame you for her choice to postpone her wedding (what the heck does her fiance think of this postponement?), I can only imagine what would have happened if you'd unwittingly seated someone in the wrong place, or your kid didn't get exactly the photos she was expecting, or your other kid neglected to play the Chicken Dance and she was sure everyone KNEW a wedding didn't count unless the DJ made everyone do the Chicken Dance ...
So sorry you're dealing with all this drama. Really hope you're able to react with a giant "WHEW" here.
posted by DingoMutt at 6:54 AM on August 16, 2015 [13 favorites]
Response by poster: what the heck does her fiance think of this postponement
Her fiance is pruning the lilacs.
posted by kinetic at 7:06 AM on August 16, 2015 [17 favorites]
Her fiance is pruning the lilacs.
posted by kinetic at 7:06 AM on August 16, 2015 [17 favorites]
Sounds like your sister is a drama queen who was possibly already looking for a reason to call it off, and is using your failure to comply with her (completely unreasonable) demands as an excuse.
Good for you for holding your ground: you were right, she's wrong, and her getting married or not has nothing to do with you.
posted by easily confused at 7:25 AM on August 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
Good for you for holding your ground: you were right, she's wrong, and her getting married or not has nothing to do with you.
posted by easily confused at 7:25 AM on August 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
Update: because I am unwilling to help and other reasons, she is postponing the wedding.
No. She made a decision to postpone the wedding which has nothing to do with you.
People get married all the time without a big party, a DJ, photos and ice cream sundaes. She could get married this week if she decided to do so.
Guilt-tripping sister is guilt-tripping. Don't fall for that trap.
posted by 26.2 at 9:42 AM on August 16, 2015 [12 favorites]
No. She made a decision to postpone the wedding which has nothing to do with you.
People get married all the time without a big party, a DJ, photos and ice cream sundaes. She could get married this week if she decided to do so.
Guilt-tripping sister is guilt-tripping. Don't fall for that trap.
posted by 26.2 at 9:42 AM on August 16, 2015 [12 favorites]
Update: because I am unwilling to help and other reasons, she is postponing the wedding.
If she says this to your face, I hope you laugh heartily and good-naturedly and say, "oh sis! You crack me up," and then let her stew forever.
posted by easter queen at 10:56 AM on August 16, 2015 [9 favorites]
If she says this to your face, I hope you laugh heartily and good-naturedly and say, "oh sis! You crack me up," and then let her stew forever.
posted by easter queen at 10:56 AM on August 16, 2015 [9 favorites]
That's good, right? It sounds like your sister has to make some pretty big changes to her plans now that she understands that you won't finance half of her wedding. It's probably a smart move to postpone the wedding.
posted by Omnomnom at 3:02 PM on August 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Omnomnom at 3:02 PM on August 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
re the update: Oh wow, drama much? If she wanted to get married she could get married and throw a reception in a public park with everyone eating peanut butter sandwiches. No one has to have a DJ, professional photographer (whether paid or roped in niece/nephew). Cancelling it because you and your kids aren't going to fund (through hard work) her wedding? Hahahaha.
And how sucky if your kids had embraced their roles and spent money preparing when it looks like it was going to get cancelled anyway?
Please do not blame yourself at all for this, you've been super cool about it and were totally allowed to feel hurt that you were wanted as cheap labour and not as a guest. Given your update, there's clearly heaps more going on anyway.Grown ups don't get to throw hissy fits when people don't do what they want.
posted by kitten magic at 5:56 PM on August 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
And how sucky if your kids had embraced their roles and spent money preparing when it looks like it was going to get cancelled anyway?
Please do not blame yourself at all for this, you've been super cool about it and were totally allowed to feel hurt that you were wanted as cheap labour and not as a guest. Given your update, there's clearly heaps more going on anyway.Grown ups don't get to throw hissy fits when people don't do what they want.
posted by kitten magic at 5:56 PM on August 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Wow. That update.
I just wanted to say, don't take it personally, kinetic. Weddings make people really freaking weird.
I was asked to be Maid of Honor for my 'best friends' wedding a couple years ago-- we had known each other since we were kids, so about 20 years. Three days later, she asks me if I'm free that weekend for a fitting. I wasn't-- and I let her know I had some stuff coming up so could we schedule the fitting for two weeks later? (Keep in mind the wedding was over a year away). She got back to me 24 hours later, saying she was making it low-key now, and dropping me as MoH (in text). Moreover, she said if I was so busy, then I needn't bother to come at all, and I may as well go on that trip I planned (I pushed back a vacation so I could make her wedding). Yep. I replied asking if she was all right, and I was sorry if I had upset her; I was happy to be her MoH but I couldn't help that I was busy for a couple of weeks. She replied. 'Don't worry about it,' and nothing else -- my actual invite never came. I haven't spoken to her since.
So yeah. Just know things like this happen. I'm loathe to say, 'bridezilla' here, because I hate that term, but weddings sometimes make people really weird. Some people get this odd self-centric thing whereby their lives start revolving around 'the wedding' and in planning it, they get tunnel vision-- assuming people should drop their own responsibilities and commitments to accommodate their wishes and sense of entitlement. It's a very confusing thing to be on the receiving end of, and sometimes things never go back to how they used to be.
So don't take it personally and don't let yourself be guilt tripped about it. You didn't do anything wrong; it's not her place to automatically assume you and the kids are will contribute these huge key tasks. They are a huge responsibility.
Sometimes I think people throw stuff like this out as a 'test' -- knowing you'll fail, just so they can uninvite you/thow it in your face/postpone the wedding. I don't know. In my case, I feel my friend used it as an excuse to reaffirm to herself I don't care about her. (If you cared, you'd do x, so obviously we're not friends). These 'tests' are usually un-passable, unfortunately.
posted by Dimes at 12:36 AM on August 17, 2015 [7 favorites]
I just wanted to say, don't take it personally, kinetic. Weddings make people really freaking weird.
I was asked to be Maid of Honor for my 'best friends' wedding a couple years ago-- we had known each other since we were kids, so about 20 years. Three days later, she asks me if I'm free that weekend for a fitting. I wasn't-- and I let her know I had some stuff coming up so could we schedule the fitting for two weeks later? (Keep in mind the wedding was over a year away). She got back to me 24 hours later, saying she was making it low-key now, and dropping me as MoH (in text). Moreover, she said if I was so busy, then I needn't bother to come at all, and I may as well go on that trip I planned (I pushed back a vacation so I could make her wedding). Yep. I replied asking if she was all right, and I was sorry if I had upset her; I was happy to be her MoH but I couldn't help that I was busy for a couple of weeks. She replied. 'Don't worry about it,' and nothing else -- my actual invite never came. I haven't spoken to her since.
So yeah. Just know things like this happen. I'm loathe to say, 'bridezilla' here, because I hate that term, but weddings sometimes make people really weird. Some people get this odd self-centric thing whereby their lives start revolving around 'the wedding' and in planning it, they get tunnel vision-- assuming people should drop their own responsibilities and commitments to accommodate their wishes and sense of entitlement. It's a very confusing thing to be on the receiving end of, and sometimes things never go back to how they used to be.
So don't take it personally and don't let yourself be guilt tripped about it. You didn't do anything wrong; it's not her place to automatically assume you and the kids are will contribute these huge key tasks. They are a huge responsibility.
Sometimes I think people throw stuff like this out as a 'test' -- knowing you'll fail, just so they can uninvite you/thow it in your face/postpone the wedding. I don't know. In my case, I feel my friend used it as an excuse to reaffirm to herself I don't care about her. (If you cared, you'd do x, so obviously we're not friends). These 'tests' are usually un-passable, unfortunately.
posted by Dimes at 12:36 AM on August 17, 2015 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: Sometimes I think people throw stuff like this out as a 'test' -- knowing you'll fail, just so they can uninvite you/thow it in your face/postpone the wedding. I don't know.
Please don't backpedal because I think you do know and I think you're right and jbenben cottoned on to this earlier.
The lesson seems to be that when someone who is typically capable of taking on emotional labor demands or maybe even asks someone to take on unreasonable levels of emotional and other labor for an event, there's a very strong possibility they don't want said event to occur and they're trying to submarine it. She knows her intended is busy pruning lilacs and isn't going to help plan their wedding and I think she recognizes on some level this is hugely problematic.
Instead of having a deep think, realizing she doesn't want to get married and dealing with that, she decided to plan this event in a way that she knew wouldn't work. And she could blame me instead of taking a good hard look at Mr. Lilac Pruner (in her case, Mr. Too Busy with Work).
I plan on having a talk with her once this dust has cleared and ask her if that's what's going on.
posted by kinetic at 3:55 AM on August 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
Please don't backpedal because I think you do know and I think you're right and jbenben cottoned on to this earlier.
The lesson seems to be that when someone who is typically capable of taking on emotional labor demands or maybe even asks someone to take on unreasonable levels of emotional and other labor for an event, there's a very strong possibility they don't want said event to occur and they're trying to submarine it. She knows her intended is busy pruning lilacs and isn't going to help plan their wedding and I think she recognizes on some level this is hugely problematic.
Instead of having a deep think, realizing she doesn't want to get married and dealing with that, she decided to plan this event in a way that she knew wouldn't work. And she could blame me instead of taking a good hard look at Mr. Lilac Pruner (in her case, Mr. Too Busy with Work).
I plan on having a talk with her once this dust has cleared and ask her if that's what's going on.
posted by kinetic at 3:55 AM on August 17, 2015 [12 favorites]
My mother did something similar to myself and other family members when she was getting married. I was requested to be the photographer and my boyfriend the DJ. Didn't really even ask, directed. She asked my sister and her girlfriend to greet and seat guests and asked an uncle to be the videographer.
I ended up quoting what I would charge at a normal wedding saying that I'd get them a nice wedding present of my choice but this was work and I'm actually a lot cheaper than most wedding photographers anyways. It afforded me to hire on an assistant and family friend to help out. My boyfriend also charged what he would do in a typical wedding gig. I was able to be in pictures and occasionally socializing with the assistant working, my boyfriend got paid, we got them a nice gift, and no one felt insulted.
I would ask your sister to approach your children directly as they are adults and they can either decline their services or arrange for pay or suggest friends or other people they may know that your sister could reach out in lieu of their participating.
posted by hillabeans at 12:36 PM on August 18, 2015
I ended up quoting what I would charge at a normal wedding saying that I'd get them a nice wedding present of my choice but this was work and I'm actually a lot cheaper than most wedding photographers anyways. It afforded me to hire on an assistant and family friend to help out. My boyfriend also charged what he would do in a typical wedding gig. I was able to be in pictures and occasionally socializing with the assistant working, my boyfriend got paid, we got them a nice gift, and no one felt insulted.
I would ask your sister to approach your children directly as they are adults and they can either decline their services or arrange for pay or suggest friends or other people they may know that your sister could reach out in lieu of their participating.
posted by hillabeans at 12:36 PM on August 18, 2015
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I would basically just say, "I'm sorry, but we'd prefer not to do these jobs. Would you like us to attend as guests?" and leave it at that. She can fly off the handle, you can say, "ok, bye sis."
posted by easter queen at 2:48 PM on August 14, 2015 [58 favorites]