What they say is true: HR is never, ever on your side.
May 4, 2015 10:23 PM Subscribe
I was fired for what I (and several lawyer friends) believe to be a bogus reason. But what should I tell potential employers, given that I don't trust my former HR department? It's going to be long but the detail is necessary.
I had a job I loved. I was very, very good at it. I got along well with everyone I worked with (honestly) and my direct supervisor was always complimentary of my work. I realize that things may not have been as rosy as I thought they were but that's the way things were as I knew them.
I was sick a lot. I mean quite a bit. But I worked in a field where pretty much everyone was out sick for a couple days or more each month. It was typical and I never lied about being sick; I always had a doctor's note and once I used up the company sick time, I took unpaid time. None of my responsibilities suffered and my shifts were adequately covered by substitute employees. I never had any indication from my supervisor or HR that my absences were excessive. I never had a performance review in the year that I worked there, either.
I came to work one day and worked the day without incident. My supervisor had me start two new projects and she also had me look into some training that I needed to take. A half hour before I was to leave for the day, she told me someone from HR was coming down to talk to me about my "excessive absences." That was the very first time those words had been used and I assumed we would be discussing my sick time. I wasn't concerned because I had the doctor's notes and had followed, to the letter, the procedure in place for illness (state mandated; if you had a fever or other symptoms of contagion, you were mandated to stay home until you were symptom free for 24 hours).
The first sentence out of the HR persons' mouth was, basically, we're firing you today because you've been absent too much. I was devastated. I tried to argue my case but was told there was no room for negotiation. I mentioned that I had never, not once, been told by my immediate supervisor that my absences were a problem and the HR person was surprised by that but just said that it was too late, I was being terminated. Every one of my co-workers was stunned. I was told by several people that it was like someone died. I have a dozen recommendation letters from co-workers who praise my work ethic, my skills, and my dedication (written without me asking for them). My supervisor told a close friend/co-worker that she had no idea I was being fired and had no say in it at all; the decision was entirely HR. It took months for me to "let go" and stop missing my job and co-workers every single day. I still miss it, but the horrible aching feeling is gone now.
I applied for unemployment compensation from the state and because of the reason of the termination I had to give proof to bolster my side. I did so, and the company was given the opportunity to refute. They did so. The state determined that I had been fired without just cause and the company was at fault for not following the correct procedures (note that my state is "at will" but a company still must show good faith measures such as performance reviews, performance plans, etc. before terminating employment). I have the documentation that shows the company was at fault, per state guidelines, and I have been collecting unemployment.
Now. Here's my issue. I know that, in my state, former employers can only legally confirm employment dates. I also know that sometimes prospective employers will ask for the reason the employee left. I have an interview later this week with a local university. I don't think they will try to ask what they're legally not allowed to ask ("Why did this employee leave?") but if they do, I do not trust my former HR department to refuse to answer. I still don't know the real reason I was terminated (for I do believe there is a reason, just not the reason I was given) and I'm truly afraid that HR will try to screw me. They won't let my former supervisor even answer my emails or write me a recommendation letter (through the grapevine, they're afraid I will bring a lawsuit against them for unlawful termination).
Do I bring up the whole mess and tell the truth as I know it if I'm asked why I left? Do I say something vague like "budget cuts?" Do I tell a semi-truth and say I was sick all the time and left because of that (I wasn't sick before and I haven't been sick since, and would make a point to say as much)? I really want this job and I would be good at it. All I want is to work again. I don't want to sue my former workplace. It's hard enough even getting an interview when you're not currently working...not having a recommendation letter from your former supervisor seems like a huge red flag to me. But there's a reason for that...and then I go round in circles again trying to figure out the best and the right thing to do. I obviously don't want to be caught in what could be perceived as a lie (saying I left because of X reason but HR says it was Y reason). But I also know that it looks really, really bad to say I was let go because of excessive absences! I'd never been fired from a job before this and the unique circumstances of the job did lead me to be sick a lot. That won't happen with this new job.
What do I do?
I had a job I loved. I was very, very good at it. I got along well with everyone I worked with (honestly) and my direct supervisor was always complimentary of my work. I realize that things may not have been as rosy as I thought they were but that's the way things were as I knew them.
I was sick a lot. I mean quite a bit. But I worked in a field where pretty much everyone was out sick for a couple days or more each month. It was typical and I never lied about being sick; I always had a doctor's note and once I used up the company sick time, I took unpaid time. None of my responsibilities suffered and my shifts were adequately covered by substitute employees. I never had any indication from my supervisor or HR that my absences were excessive. I never had a performance review in the year that I worked there, either.
I came to work one day and worked the day without incident. My supervisor had me start two new projects and she also had me look into some training that I needed to take. A half hour before I was to leave for the day, she told me someone from HR was coming down to talk to me about my "excessive absences." That was the very first time those words had been used and I assumed we would be discussing my sick time. I wasn't concerned because I had the doctor's notes and had followed, to the letter, the procedure in place for illness (state mandated; if you had a fever or other symptoms of contagion, you were mandated to stay home until you were symptom free for 24 hours).
The first sentence out of the HR persons' mouth was, basically, we're firing you today because you've been absent too much. I was devastated. I tried to argue my case but was told there was no room for negotiation. I mentioned that I had never, not once, been told by my immediate supervisor that my absences were a problem and the HR person was surprised by that but just said that it was too late, I was being terminated. Every one of my co-workers was stunned. I was told by several people that it was like someone died. I have a dozen recommendation letters from co-workers who praise my work ethic, my skills, and my dedication (written without me asking for them). My supervisor told a close friend/co-worker that she had no idea I was being fired and had no say in it at all; the decision was entirely HR. It took months for me to "let go" and stop missing my job and co-workers every single day. I still miss it, but the horrible aching feeling is gone now.
I applied for unemployment compensation from the state and because of the reason of the termination I had to give proof to bolster my side. I did so, and the company was given the opportunity to refute. They did so. The state determined that I had been fired without just cause and the company was at fault for not following the correct procedures (note that my state is "at will" but a company still must show good faith measures such as performance reviews, performance plans, etc. before terminating employment). I have the documentation that shows the company was at fault, per state guidelines, and I have been collecting unemployment.
Now. Here's my issue. I know that, in my state, former employers can only legally confirm employment dates. I also know that sometimes prospective employers will ask for the reason the employee left. I have an interview later this week with a local university. I don't think they will try to ask what they're legally not allowed to ask ("Why did this employee leave?") but if they do, I do not trust my former HR department to refuse to answer. I still don't know the real reason I was terminated (for I do believe there is a reason, just not the reason I was given) and I'm truly afraid that HR will try to screw me. They won't let my former supervisor even answer my emails or write me a recommendation letter (through the grapevine, they're afraid I will bring a lawsuit against them for unlawful termination).
Do I bring up the whole mess and tell the truth as I know it if I'm asked why I left? Do I say something vague like "budget cuts?" Do I tell a semi-truth and say I was sick all the time and left because of that (I wasn't sick before and I haven't been sick since, and would make a point to say as much)? I really want this job and I would be good at it. All I want is to work again. I don't want to sue my former workplace. It's hard enough even getting an interview when you're not currently working...not having a recommendation letter from your former supervisor seems like a huge red flag to me. But there's a reason for that...and then I go round in circles again trying to figure out the best and the right thing to do. I obviously don't want to be caught in what could be perceived as a lie (saying I left because of X reason but HR says it was Y reason). But I also know that it looks really, really bad to say I was let go because of excessive absences! I'd never been fired from a job before this and the unique circumstances of the job did lead me to be sick a lot. That won't happen with this new job.
What do I do?
Also, you're understandably vague about the nature of the job, but you say the particulars of it led you to be sick a lot. Is that something most future employers would be aware of for your former line of work - like a daycare worker, an urgent care clinic, a pharmacy tech, etc? If so, perhaps there's a half-truth you can toss off casually: "I'm really looking forward to working in an environment where I won't be catching two year olds/strangers' colds every month." Obviously this only works if your former job has a clear relationship with exposure to illness, and the job(s) you're interviewing for do not.
posted by deludingmyself at 10:46 PM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by deludingmyself at 10:46 PM on May 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
I worked in a field where pretty much everyone was out sick for a couple days or more each month.
A couple days or more each month? I'm certainly not familiar with all fields around, but that strikes me as quite outside the norm.
I know that, in my state, former employers can only legally confirm employment dates.
This is not the case in any state I am aware of. In general, employers make a policy of only confirming employment dates, but that's not a legal requirement - that's a policy to limit liability.
Do I bring up the whole mess and tell the truth as I know it if I'm asked why I left?
"I had medical issues that interfered with my job. Those issues have since been resolved."
Do I say something vague like "budget cuts?"
That's a lie - don't do that.
Do I tell a semi-truth and say I was sick all the time and left because of that
From my reading of your post, that is not a semi-truth, that is the truth.
not having a recommendation letter from your former supervisor seems like a huge red flag to me.
I've never hired an employee that had a recommendation letter from a past supervisor. The most I've ever received is a statement of, "Bob is a good worker - you made a good hire."
What do I do?
I'm not sure what "unique circumstances" of a job would make being sick normal. That strikes me as bizarre and unbelievable. Since I don't know what job you're referring to, a much more believable position is that you were just sick - period - and that made your job impossible for you to do. That's a normal and acceptable place to be. People get sick, get injured, or have their family get sick, or get injured. They get better. Any employer that probes beyond that is not worth working for. Even for the most regulated of positions, I can't imagine any employer requiring anything more than an (independent) medical examination indicating you are fit to do the job. From your description, that is the case. At this point, you are the one limiting your job options, not your past medical issues. Treat your past medical issues as what they are - overcome - and be confident when you tell the truth - that you are no longer affected by your medical issues - and you will do fine. If you aren't hired because of medical issues that are no longer problematic, you just dodged a bullet by avoiding an employer you don't want to work for.
posted by saeculorum at 10:47 PM on May 4, 2015 [20 favorites]
A couple days or more each month? I'm certainly not familiar with all fields around, but that strikes me as quite outside the norm.
I know that, in my state, former employers can only legally confirm employment dates.
This is not the case in any state I am aware of. In general, employers make a policy of only confirming employment dates, but that's not a legal requirement - that's a policy to limit liability.
Do I bring up the whole mess and tell the truth as I know it if I'm asked why I left?
"I had medical issues that interfered with my job. Those issues have since been resolved."
Do I say something vague like "budget cuts?"
That's a lie - don't do that.
Do I tell a semi-truth and say I was sick all the time and left because of that
From my reading of your post, that is not a semi-truth, that is the truth.
not having a recommendation letter from your former supervisor seems like a huge red flag to me.
I've never hired an employee that had a recommendation letter from a past supervisor. The most I've ever received is a statement of, "Bob is a good worker - you made a good hire."
What do I do?
I'm not sure what "unique circumstances" of a job would make being sick normal. That strikes me as bizarre and unbelievable. Since I don't know what job you're referring to, a much more believable position is that you were just sick - period - and that made your job impossible for you to do. That's a normal and acceptable place to be. People get sick, get injured, or have their family get sick, or get injured. They get better. Any employer that probes beyond that is not worth working for. Even for the most regulated of positions, I can't imagine any employer requiring anything more than an (independent) medical examination indicating you are fit to do the job. From your description, that is the case. At this point, you are the one limiting your job options, not your past medical issues. Treat your past medical issues as what they are - overcome - and be confident when you tell the truth - that you are no longer affected by your medical issues - and you will do fine. If you aren't hired because of medical issues that are no longer problematic, you just dodged a bullet by avoiding an employer you don't want to work for.
posted by saeculorum at 10:47 PM on May 4, 2015 [20 favorites]
How can they prevent your supervisor from being a reference for you? How would they ever know? That seems weird. I'm not sure how that's even legal if you contact your former supervisor on a personal email address. If your supervisor wants to be a reference, he or she should. Depending on how many other jobs you've had, it would look weird to not have any references from your last company. I would try to find a way to get some. I got fired (laid off) and I signed a form saying I would not sue them in exchange for severance -- is something like that a possibility or has the ship sailed? I do think you should try to lock down your references because that will be the final step in the interview process.
If the place you're interviewing with asks why you left, which they are totally allowed to ask you, you could say you had some minor health issues that affected your availability but they are totally resolved and you are really excited about the prospect of whatever. (This is assuming you are fine and won't be sick all the time.) Ideally you can find another way to fill the gap -- i.e. maybe you could intern somewhere briefly, or take some freelance jobs. But if you can't you'll have to explain it in the way that makes it look like it's not tied to you being a bad worker, and something that won't happen again.
posted by AppleTurnover at 10:48 PM on May 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
If the place you're interviewing with asks why you left, which they are totally allowed to ask you, you could say you had some minor health issues that affected your availability but they are totally resolved and you are really excited about the prospect of whatever. (This is assuming you are fine and won't be sick all the time.) Ideally you can find another way to fill the gap -- i.e. maybe you could intern somewhere briefly, or take some freelance jobs. But if you can't you'll have to explain it in the way that makes it look like it's not tied to you being a bad worker, and something that won't happen again.
posted by AppleTurnover at 10:48 PM on May 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yeah, go with some version of "health issues that are now resolved".
Do NOT get into how you feel you were unjustly fired when interviewed, or how 'several lawyer friends' agree your old employer was in the wrong; heck, even after you find a new job don't go around at New Job bad mouthing Old Job --- all that'll do is give people a bad impression OF YOU.
And to be honest, it doesn't matter if your shifts at Old Job were covered by other employees: from •their• point of view, 1) YOU were not there to do the job they hired YOU to do, and (just a guess here) this probably meant 2) Old Job ended up paying those other employees overtime, i.e., it cost Old Job more money per employee hour to get the job done than if you had been there as scheduled; plus 3) why should they bother to pay to keep you around, no matter HOW well you get along with your coworkers, if the company mission is successfully accomplished without you? They may have handled it poorly, but unless you have a serious documented condition (like cancer or a need for dialysis; a cold or the flu or cramps every single month won't fly), then yes your several days off sick per month do sound excessive.
posted by easily confused at 1:27 AM on May 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
Do NOT get into how you feel you were unjustly fired when interviewed, or how 'several lawyer friends' agree your old employer was in the wrong; heck, even after you find a new job don't go around at New Job bad mouthing Old Job --- all that'll do is give people a bad impression OF YOU.
And to be honest, it doesn't matter if your shifts at Old Job were covered by other employees: from •their• point of view, 1) YOU were not there to do the job they hired YOU to do, and (just a guess here) this probably meant 2) Old Job ended up paying those other employees overtime, i.e., it cost Old Job more money per employee hour to get the job done than if you had been there as scheduled; plus 3) why should they bother to pay to keep you around, no matter HOW well you get along with your coworkers, if the company mission is successfully accomplished without you? They may have handled it poorly, but unless you have a serious documented condition (like cancer or a need for dialysis; a cold or the flu or cramps every single month won't fly), then yes your several days off sick per month do sound excessive.
posted by easily confused at 1:27 AM on May 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
Oh goodness do not, under any circumstances, bring up the story you've related here; and definitely do not tell it in the same way.
Nothing in what you've written cannot be resolved by references from a) a manager, and b) a seniorish peer you worked with. That testimony will outweigh anything HR will say (which likely won't be much; honestly, once you're gone they have other concerns).
Don't bother with written references; they are useless because they can be faked so easily unless they include contact details and welcome enquiries - get those testimonies on your LinkedIn profile, however. They are solid there.
But have those two people available for calls as references. Your former employer can't stop them and will have no visibility if they have been contacted.
But, just make sure, like triple sure, that the story in your head and the way you tell it - not about the firing, but about your job, your skills and your performance levels - match up.
Best of luck hope you get the job!
posted by smoke at 2:00 AM on May 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Nothing in what you've written cannot be resolved by references from a) a manager, and b) a seniorish peer you worked with. That testimony will outweigh anything HR will say (which likely won't be much; honestly, once you're gone they have other concerns).
Don't bother with written references; they are useless because they can be faked so easily unless they include contact details and welcome enquiries - get those testimonies on your LinkedIn profile, however. They are solid there.
But have those two people available for calls as references. Your former employer can't stop them and will have no visibility if they have been contacted.
But, just make sure, like triple sure, that the story in your head and the way you tell it - not about the firing, but about your job, your skills and your performance levels - match up.
Best of luck hope you get the job!
posted by smoke at 2:00 AM on May 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
How can they prevent your supervisor from being a reference for you? How would they ever know? That seems weird. I'm not sure how that's even legal if you contact your former supervisor on a personal email address. If your supervisor wants to be a reference, he or she should.
If they are concerned about legal liability for a firing for some reason, then a company sometimes will forbid employees to act as a reference of any kind-- even verbal. The logic is that if the hiring manager calls the reference person and then the potential employee is not hired, they might claim that it is because of whatever the referring person said (even if it wasn't).
And lest you think this is crazy, I was once threatened with a libel suit because I (completely truthfully) answered "I don't know." when asked why another employee left the company where I was employed. Logic of the complaint was that since I was in a position where I should have known, then by saying I didn't know, I made it look as though there was a negative reason why the person left her job. Sigh. (I have no idea why she listed me as a referral, and I still don't know the circumstances of her leaving.)
Because of this kind of crap, I've even known companies who instruct employees that only HR may act as a referral after an employee leaves.
posted by frumiousb at 2:52 AM on May 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
If they are concerned about legal liability for a firing for some reason, then a company sometimes will forbid employees to act as a reference of any kind-- even verbal. The logic is that if the hiring manager calls the reference person and then the potential employee is not hired, they might claim that it is because of whatever the referring person said (even if it wasn't).
And lest you think this is crazy, I was once threatened with a libel suit because I (completely truthfully) answered "I don't know." when asked why another employee left the company where I was employed. Logic of the complaint was that since I was in a position where I should have known, then by saying I didn't know, I made it look as though there was a negative reason why the person left her job. Sigh. (I have no idea why she listed me as a referral, and I still don't know the circumstances of her leaving.)
Because of this kind of crap, I've even known companies who instruct employees that only HR may act as a referral after an employee leaves.
posted by frumiousb at 2:52 AM on May 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
To the OP, I Nth the advice not to lie. I would say, as advised above, that you had an issue with illness during that year and it wasn't possible to carry out your duties, but the illness has since been resolved.
posted by frumiousb at 2:56 AM on May 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by frumiousb at 2:56 AM on May 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
>my state is "at will" but a company still must show good faith measures such as performance reviews, performance plans, etc. before terminating employment
This is inconsistent and, put simply, probably untrue. You may be confusing legal rights re termination with legal rights re unemployment.
>I know that, in my state, former employers can only legally confirm employment dates.
Again, probably not true.
Getting your legal advice from a lawyer is always the best route.
posted by megatherium at 4:12 AM on May 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
This is inconsistent and, put simply, probably untrue. You may be confusing legal rights re termination with legal rights re unemployment.
>I know that, in my state, former employers can only legally confirm employment dates.
Again, probably not true.
Getting your legal advice from a lawyer is always the best route.
posted by megatherium at 4:12 AM on May 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
I was sick a lot. I mean quite a bit. But I worked in a field where pretty much everyone was out sick for a couple days or more each month. It was typical and I never lied about being sick; I always had a doctor's note and once I used up the company sick time, I took unpaid time.
I am not your potential employer, but I think this is going to raise red flags. Unless you were treating the ebola virus there's no reason to be sick a couple of days "or more" each month. I am a first grade teacher and I am pretty much constantly sick with various kid germs and I've barely made a dent in my sick days.
Anyway, it sounds like there was some muddled communication on your employer's end and I'm sorry that it happened the way it did. It also sounds like there are some gaps in your story though.
I still don't know the real reason I was terminated (for I do believe there is a reason, just not the reason I was given)
This seems a bit inconsistent with everything else you said too. You wrote about what an outstanding employee you were and how much your coworkers and supervisor liked working with you. That's all well and good - Why wouldn't excessive absences been the real reason you were terminated, though? Do you think it's reasonable to be absent several days each month?
But I also know that it looks really, really bad to say I was let go because of excessive absences!
Yes, but you did have excessive absences. Are you anticipating that you'll continue to need to be absent? If not, then tell them you've resolved whatever situation medical or otherwise you were having.
posted by mermily at 5:31 AM on May 5, 2015 [4 favorites]
I am not your potential employer, but I think this is going to raise red flags. Unless you were treating the ebola virus there's no reason to be sick a couple of days "or more" each month. I am a first grade teacher and I am pretty much constantly sick with various kid germs and I've barely made a dent in my sick days.
Anyway, it sounds like there was some muddled communication on your employer's end and I'm sorry that it happened the way it did. It also sounds like there are some gaps in your story though.
I still don't know the real reason I was terminated (for I do believe there is a reason, just not the reason I was given)
This seems a bit inconsistent with everything else you said too. You wrote about what an outstanding employee you were and how much your coworkers and supervisor liked working with you. That's all well and good - Why wouldn't excessive absences been the real reason you were terminated, though? Do you think it's reasonable to be absent several days each month?
But I also know that it looks really, really bad to say I was let go because of excessive absences!
Yes, but you did have excessive absences. Are you anticipating that you'll continue to need to be absent? If not, then tell them you've resolved whatever situation medical or otherwise you were having.
posted by mermily at 5:31 AM on May 5, 2015 [4 favorites]
(note that my state is "at will" but a company still must show good faith measures such as performance reviews, performance plans, etc. before terminating employment).
At-will specifically means they can terminate whomever, whenever without cause or warning. Many employers in at-will states will still take measures like performance improvement plans to protect themselves from litigation, but it's not technically required. I think you're confusing cause v. not-for-cause termination status for unemployment benefits, which makes sense given that you've been awarded unemployment.
As for your question about references, you can absolutely use your former colleagues as references if you ask them privately. (Use your personal email via their personal email or call.) Do not lie. I like the other suggestions that you let them know you had health issues that are now taken care of.
I hope you're feeling better! ...But a couple of days out a month is pretty beyond the pale for standard full-time employment. Every job I've had that offered sick days only gave 5 a YEAR. If your health issues are still occurring, might I suggest freelancing or consulting? It's a much more flexible schedule that would allow you to take days as needed.
posted by smirkette at 5:55 AM on May 5, 2015 [5 favorites]
At-will specifically means they can terminate whomever, whenever without cause or warning. Many employers in at-will states will still take measures like performance improvement plans to protect themselves from litigation, but it's not technically required. I think you're confusing cause v. not-for-cause termination status for unemployment benefits, which makes sense given that you've been awarded unemployment.
As for your question about references, you can absolutely use your former colleagues as references if you ask them privately. (Use your personal email via their personal email or call.) Do not lie. I like the other suggestions that you let them know you had health issues that are now taken care of.
I hope you're feeling better! ...But a couple of days out a month is pretty beyond the pale for standard full-time employment. Every job I've had that offered sick days only gave 5 a YEAR. If your health issues are still occurring, might I suggest freelancing or consulting? It's a much more flexible schedule that would allow you to take days as needed.
posted by smirkette at 5:55 AM on May 5, 2015 [5 favorites]
the unique circumstances of the job did lead me to be sick a lot.
Was it something environmental? Some kind of reaction to a physical substance? If so, maybe mentioning that would put a clear line between your sickness at this company and your future health. Not sure how people would react if it was stress-related. (I'm so sorry, by the way, that this happened to you, and I'm glad you're feeling better!)
posted by cotton dress sock at 5:58 AM on May 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
Was it something environmental? Some kind of reaction to a physical substance? If so, maybe mentioning that would put a clear line between your sickness at this company and your future health. Not sure how people would react if it was stress-related. (I'm so sorry, by the way, that this happened to you, and I'm glad you're feeling better!)
posted by cotton dress sock at 5:58 AM on May 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
I agree, you should talk to your manager about providing a reference. Lots of managers will provide a reference even if company policies tell them not to, because people love to talk and give opinions. Just ask the manager whether they can provide you with a reference and make sure it's a good reference.
posted by mskyle at 6:39 AM on May 5, 2015
posted by mskyle at 6:39 AM on May 5, 2015
"...Through the grapevine, they're afraid I will bring a lawsuit against them for unlawful termination."
If they're truly afraid, a strongly worded letter from an attorney about their requirement to confirm employment dates with no editorializing will solve your problem. Employment lawyers almost always get paid on contingency, so they're good at sounding menacing in written form.
In the meantime, "I had a serious health issue, but it is now resolved and I'm so thrilled to go back to work" is the best line you have.
posted by juniperesque at 6:40 AM on May 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
If they're truly afraid, a strongly worded letter from an attorney about their requirement to confirm employment dates with no editorializing will solve your problem. Employment lawyers almost always get paid on contingency, so they're good at sounding menacing in written form.
In the meantime, "I had a serious health issue, but it is now resolved and I'm so thrilled to go back to work" is the best line you have.
posted by juniperesque at 6:40 AM on May 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
Update from the anonymous OP:
The former workplace was a daycare. At this particular facility, nearly all the employees were out two or more days per month because of illness. The state licensing required that any staff with signs of contagion stay home until symptom free for 24 hours. In my first month, I caught pneumonia and was in the hospital for three days and out of work for just under three weeks. That's when I used all my sick time. But I still got sick after that, too, and followed the state mandate as I was required to do. There were people who were out sick more than I was. To be honest, several of us have a suspicion that there might be a case of 'sick building' there; no amount of deep cleaning ever seemed to stop us from getting sick. Those who are still there are still getting sick, all the time. I wasn't sick like that before the job and I haven't been sick at all in the three months since. The prospective employment is not a daycare and does not deal with germy children.posted by LobsterMitten at 7:33 AM on May 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
It sounds like the best thing for me to do is state that I had medical issues that were ongoing but that have been totally resolved and I can get doctor's approval if need be.
You know, I might just tell the pneumonia/complying with staying home until symptom-free story, then - if you can do it without sounding axe-grindy or drama-filled. If someone told me a hospitalization for an infectious illness burned through much of their sick leave and then their employer fired them when they needed to take a few more days that year due to the company policy on illness, I don't think I'd find that a red flag. Bonus if you can close the story with a lighthearted transition "it definitely came as a shock, but I'm excited to be moving on to new things and not working with germy toddlers every day."
"Medical issues that are resolved" is one of those things that should totally not invite discrimination but still can make people fill in the blanks in their head with whatever their last worst employee medical issue drama might have been. You'd make the world a tiny bit better for everyone if you left it at that in interviews, but if you don't want your future boss wondering if your chronic disease/mental health issue/old injury is going to raise its head again, from a pure self interest standpoint it's to your benefit to disclosure the primary reason you got fired was a hospitalization for pneumonia + following your old employer's policy on staying home afterwards.
posted by deludingmyself at 8:09 AM on May 5, 2015 [7 favorites]
"Medical issues that are resolved" is one of those things that should totally not invite discrimination but still can make people fill in the blanks in their head with whatever their last worst employee medical issue drama might have been. You'd make the world a tiny bit better for everyone if you left it at that in interviews, but if you don't want your future boss wondering if your chronic disease/mental health issue/old injury is going to raise its head again, from a pure self interest standpoint it's to your benefit to disclosure the primary reason you got fired was a hospitalization for pneumonia + following your old employer's policy on staying home afterwards.
posted by deludingmyself at 8:09 AM on May 5, 2015 [7 favorites]
"Medical issues that are resolved" is one of those things that should totally not invite discrimination but still can make people fill in the blanks in their head with whatever their last worst employee medical issue drama might have been.
I don't work in HR so maybe I'm a bad example, but I would assume this was mental illness. It's completely unfair but it's where my mind would go.
Having stated your reason, it actually makes total sense. Kids are disease factories, and if you were legally required to stay home, then that should have been sufficient. In this case I might actually tell them exactly(ish) what happened - that it became clear that working with children all day was terrible for you and making you constantly ill.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:31 AM on May 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
I don't work in HR so maybe I'm a bad example, but I would assume this was mental illness. It's completely unfair but it's where my mind would go.
Having stated your reason, it actually makes total sense. Kids are disease factories, and if you were legally required to stay home, then that should have been sufficient. In this case I might actually tell them exactly(ish) what happened - that it became clear that working with children all day was terrible for you and making you constantly ill.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:31 AM on May 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
I still don't know the real reason I was terminated (for I do believe there is a reason, just not the reason I was given) and I'm truly afraid that HR will try to screw me. They won't let my former supervisor even answer my emails or write me a recommendation letter (through the grapevine, they're afraid I will bring a lawsuit against them for unlawful termination).
IAAL, IANYL, this is not legal advice, etc., call them up and offer to sign a release in exchange for a letter of recommendation and positive references. Companies do it all the time. But check with your actual attorney or the state about whether or how this might, if at all, jeopardize the unemployment you're receiving.
posted by resurrexit at 8:45 AM on May 5, 2015
IAAL, IANYL, this is not legal advice, etc., call them up and offer to sign a release in exchange for a letter of recommendation and positive references. Companies do it all the time. But check with your actual attorney or the state about whether or how this might, if at all, jeopardize the unemployment you're receiving.
posted by resurrexit at 8:45 AM on May 5, 2015
Oh, daycares. I have had so many friends fired or laid off from daycares. They are a high-churn industry, apparently. (Not to mention the employees are usually underpaid and overworked).
I think you are over-worrying. You are applying for a job in a different field, doing (I assume) different tasks for different clients. Concentrate on that job, on talking up your skills, and on how excited you would be to work for that company.
If asked why you left, all you usually need to say is that you are looking for an opportunity to use more of your x, y, z skills and that while you enjoyed your previous job, it didn't allow you to utilize them. Then say nothing else. Just leave it there. They don't need the whole story, and more importantly, they don't want it.
Look at it this way. Your interviewer has a job to fill; they need to not pick someone who's a problem, but also who can do the work, so that all the things that aren't getting done now will start getting done. Probably they find interviewing as uncomfortable and awkward as you do.
Your best bet, always, in an interview is to make the interviewer feel good. Don't lie; just put as sunny a take on your career/experience/willingness to work as possible. You want to make them feel that you are skilled, that you are responsible, that you will be a hire they won't get any flack for.
I have gotten work after walking off a previous job because it was unbearable. Obviously I didn't get any references from them. It didn't matter, because the interview went well and because my other references were good. You have personal references from your previous job. You are good to go. That's probably all that will get checked.
posted by emjaybee at 8:49 AM on May 5, 2015 [10 favorites]
I think you are over-worrying. You are applying for a job in a different field, doing (I assume) different tasks for different clients. Concentrate on that job, on talking up your skills, and on how excited you would be to work for that company.
If asked why you left, all you usually need to say is that you are looking for an opportunity to use more of your x, y, z skills and that while you enjoyed your previous job, it didn't allow you to utilize them. Then say nothing else. Just leave it there. They don't need the whole story, and more importantly, they don't want it.
Look at it this way. Your interviewer has a job to fill; they need to not pick someone who's a problem, but also who can do the work, so that all the things that aren't getting done now will start getting done. Probably they find interviewing as uncomfortable and awkward as you do.
Your best bet, always, in an interview is to make the interviewer feel good. Don't lie; just put as sunny a take on your career/experience/willingness to work as possible. You want to make them feel that you are skilled, that you are responsible, that you will be a hire they won't get any flack for.
I have gotten work after walking off a previous job because it was unbearable. Obviously I didn't get any references from them. It didn't matter, because the interview went well and because my other references were good. You have personal references from your previous job. You are good to go. That's probably all that will get checked.
posted by emjaybee at 8:49 AM on May 5, 2015 [10 favorites]
I am in HR and have been for many years so here is my take.
1. I know that, in my state, former employers can only legally confirm employment dates. Not true but super common. It isn't illegal it is just common practice for the company to only confirm dates and title.
2. not having a recommendation letter from your former supervisor seems like a huge red flag to me. I don't read those because they are worthless, you are not going to voluntarily give me bad information about yourself so clearly a recommendation letter is going to be nothing but glowing anyway. I've only ever seen like maybe 5 people in my career send in a recommendation letter so this is pointless to worry about.
3. the HR person was surprised by that but just said that it was too late Hmmm. I have a feeling your HR person HAD talked to your boss about this before and your boss was supposed to talk to you about this and didn't. Why? Well who do you hate in this situation? Clearly you hate HR right now and you still really like your boss... I don't believe this termination was a surprise to your boss, you don't even indicate that your boss seemed surprised, to me it looks like your boss didn't want to be the bad guy.
4. Unemployment: In general, unless you are fired for gross misconduct (like stealing) you qualify for unemployment so just because you are getting unemployment doesn't necessarily mean that the company did something horribly wrong in firing you. And no, a company doesn't have to make a good faith effort, should they? yes. Legally must they? no. It just looks better in a lawsuit if they did.
Focus on your new work and your applications. Don't speak poorly about past employers, keep everything positive and upbeat. And look at this as a learning opportunity. Check in with your boss about performance, etc. and double check policies with HR.
posted by magnetsphere at 8:58 AM on May 5, 2015 [5 favorites]
1. I know that, in my state, former employers can only legally confirm employment dates. Not true but super common. It isn't illegal it is just common practice for the company to only confirm dates and title.
2. not having a recommendation letter from your former supervisor seems like a huge red flag to me. I don't read those because they are worthless, you are not going to voluntarily give me bad information about yourself so clearly a recommendation letter is going to be nothing but glowing anyway. I've only ever seen like maybe 5 people in my career send in a recommendation letter so this is pointless to worry about.
3. the HR person was surprised by that but just said that it was too late Hmmm. I have a feeling your HR person HAD talked to your boss about this before and your boss was supposed to talk to you about this and didn't. Why? Well who do you hate in this situation? Clearly you hate HR right now and you still really like your boss... I don't believe this termination was a surprise to your boss, you don't even indicate that your boss seemed surprised, to me it looks like your boss didn't want to be the bad guy.
4. Unemployment: In general, unless you are fired for gross misconduct (like stealing) you qualify for unemployment so just because you are getting unemployment doesn't necessarily mean that the company did something horribly wrong in firing you. And no, a company doesn't have to make a good faith effort, should they? yes. Legally must they? no. It just looks better in a lawsuit if they did.
Focus on your new work and your applications. Don't speak poorly about past employers, keep everything positive and upbeat. And look at this as a learning opportunity. Check in with your boss about performance, etc. and double check policies with HR.
posted by magnetsphere at 8:58 AM on May 5, 2015 [5 favorites]
People with kids know that illness spreads around daycares a lot. Whole families will get sick because of their kids bringing home something from daycare. So unless the people hiring have no experience with kids, I'm sure they won't see it as a concern for the new job.
Why were you let go? "Apparently I got sick too often. A lot of kids go to daycare sick, and then we caught it too. Their policy required us to stay home when we're sick, but given only so many sick days, and in following company policy I had to exceed my sick day allotment. So, needless to say that was a bit contentious, but I just want to be clear that since leaving the daycare I've been in excellent health, and it won't be an issue going forward."
posted by lizbunny at 12:02 PM on May 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
Why were you let go? "Apparently I got sick too often. A lot of kids go to daycare sick, and then we caught it too. Their policy required us to stay home when we're sick, but given only so many sick days, and in following company policy I had to exceed my sick day allotment. So, needless to say that was a bit contentious, but I just want to be clear that since leaving the daycare I've been in excellent health, and it won't be an issue going forward."
posted by lizbunny at 12:02 PM on May 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
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If they really are that skittish about the possibility of you suing them, hopefully they'll play it by the book, but either way, you'll know more.
posted by deludingmyself at 10:38 PM on May 4, 2015 [20 favorites]