Dodgy DVDs on ebay
November 24, 2005 4:45 AM Subscribe
Is a promise of money back on fake DVDs worth any more than the DVDs are?
So, after 5 years on ebay, I finally bought a fake product - a set of DVDs on blue discs with an inkjet printed cover slip.
The seller's only reply has been "Post back to me for a full refund". What do think are the chances I'll ever get my money back if I do post the discs? Should I hold onto the discs and demand she gives me my money before I ship them back?
Or should I just keep the discs and inform ebay fraud department?
Of course, I know full well that if I send the discs back some other sap will buy them. Judging by the seller's feedback I'm either unlucky or other buyers are idiots.
So, after 5 years on ebay, I finally bought a fake product - a set of DVDs on blue discs with an inkjet printed cover slip.
The seller's only reply has been "Post back to me for a full refund". What do think are the chances I'll ever get my money back if I do post the discs? Should I hold onto the discs and demand she gives me my money before I ship them back?
Or should I just keep the discs and inform ebay fraud department?
Of course, I know full well that if I send the discs back some other sap will buy them. Judging by the seller's feedback I'm either unlucky or other buyers are idiots.
Whether or not you send them back, other eBayers will buy them, however if you send them back and eBay asks for proof of fraud, you have nothing.
If that really is all they were going to say to me, I'd contact the fraud dept. If they don't want the DVDs sent as evidence, I'd keep the DVDs.
posted by NinjaPirate at 4:55 AM on November 24, 2005
If that really is all they were going to say to me, I'd contact the fraud dept. If they don't want the DVDs sent as evidence, I'd keep the DVDs.
posted by NinjaPirate at 4:55 AM on November 24, 2005
Keep in mind that the seller can deny selling the dodgy dvds as they can say that you swapped them with fakes to get your money back. There is no proof unless the picture illustrates that it isnt the original.
posted by spooksie at 5:22 AM on November 24, 2005
posted by spooksie at 5:22 AM on November 24, 2005
Response by poster: spooksie, that is a depressing thought I hadn't considered.
posted by twine42 at 5:58 AM on November 24, 2005
posted by twine42 at 5:58 AM on November 24, 2005
Contact the seller and insist that they refund your money before you will send the discs back. And say that if the money doesn't appear in your account by X date then you will report them to the Ebay fraud department and get their account yanked.
posted by talitha_kumi at 6:12 AM on November 24, 2005
posted by talitha_kumi at 6:12 AM on November 24, 2005
Response by poster: talitha_kumi, 'ello hon. Want to watch some DVDs tonight before I send them back? :)
But yeah, I think I agree with you.
posted by twine42 at 6:18 AM on November 24, 2005
But yeah, I think I agree with you.
posted by twine42 at 6:18 AM on November 24, 2005
Don't let spooksie get you down. :)
I bought some pirated software, packaged such as you described above. Possibly a similar situation as yours - the seller had 200+ positive feedback, zero negative feedback. I immediately emailed the seller stating that that was unacceptable and demanded that my money be refunded within 24 hours, or I'd be leaving negative feedback and notifying ebay's fraud department. I got my money back, and left negative feedback anyway. A few days later I checked and she had a half dozen negative feedbacks for selling pirated software.
I definitely wouldn't send the copies back. Threaten legal action, starting with negative feedback, the ebay fraud department (which I've luckily never had to use), possibly even small claims court, but I don't know how that works in the UK. You might be able to get paypal or your credit card, however you paid, to reverse the charges.
Whatever happens, leave negative feedback to help other buyers make informed decisions.
Good luck, it's pretty disappointing to be defrauded.
posted by cactus at 6:23 AM on November 24, 2005
I bought some pirated software, packaged such as you described above. Possibly a similar situation as yours - the seller had 200+ positive feedback, zero negative feedback. I immediately emailed the seller stating that that was unacceptable and demanded that my money be refunded within 24 hours, or I'd be leaving negative feedback and notifying ebay's fraud department. I got my money back, and left negative feedback anyway. A few days later I checked and she had a half dozen negative feedbacks for selling pirated software.
I definitely wouldn't send the copies back. Threaten legal action, starting with negative feedback, the ebay fraud department (which I've luckily never had to use), possibly even small claims court, but I don't know how that works in the UK. You might be able to get paypal or your credit card, however you paid, to reverse the charges.
Whatever happens, leave negative feedback to help other buyers make informed decisions.
Good luck, it's pretty disappointing to be defrauded.
posted by cactus at 6:23 AM on November 24, 2005
This may be a legal transaction. In the US there is a loophole in copyright laws, so if a movie or series does not have a distributor in the US, you can legally make copies and sell them. I don't think I would want to test this myself, but there is a thriving ebay culture that sells foreign and obscure "bootleg" copies and it is supposedly legal.
You appear to be in the UK, and I'm not sure if they have the same type of loophole there, but the series you bought does not appear to be available in the UK. (Which does not mean it does not have a distributor.)
The seller in this case is providing a product that is not available to you (An R2 DVD set) by transforming another product (Presumedly a R1 DVD set from the US) and you are paying for this service and not the product itself.
If this bothers you, email the guy and return the discs. Then wait for this set to be released in the UK. The bold TALK TO ME! in his ad would indicate that he would rather make you happy than get negative feedback.
posted by Yorrick at 8:19 AM on November 24, 2005
You appear to be in the UK, and I'm not sure if they have the same type of loophole there, but the series you bought does not appear to be available in the UK. (Which does not mean it does not have a distributor.)
The seller in this case is providing a product that is not available to you (An R2 DVD set) by transforming another product (Presumedly a R1 DVD set from the US) and you are paying for this service and not the product itself.
If this bothers you, email the guy and return the discs. Then wait for this set to be released in the UK. The bold TALK TO ME! in his ad would indicate that he would rather make you happy than get negative feedback.
posted by Yorrick at 8:19 AM on November 24, 2005
As you hint at in the first line of your question, the discs themselves really aren't worth anything. I doubt that the seller cares much whether they get them back when they can make another set for ~$2.
On the other hand, why would they refund your money if you're keeping the item they sold to you?
I think I'd send them back and try to get the refund. I can't see that you have anything to lose by sending them back to the seller.
Btw, Are you dissatisfied because they don't work, or because they're counterfeit? If the former, you could ask to exchange them.
If the latter, and you're paying too good to be true prices for discs on ebay, I think you should half suspect that they will be copies.
posted by Zetetics at 8:29 AM on November 24, 2005
On the other hand, why would they refund your money if you're keeping the item they sold to you?
I think I'd send them back and try to get the refund. I can't see that you have anything to lose by sending them back to the seller.
Btw, Are you dissatisfied because they don't work, or because they're counterfeit? If the former, you could ask to exchange them.
If the latter, and you're paying too good to be true prices for discs on ebay, I think you should half suspect that they will be copies.
posted by Zetetics at 8:29 AM on November 24, 2005
In the US there is a loophole in copyright laws, so if a movie or series does not have a distributor in the US, you can legally make copies and sell them.
Can you cite a court case to back this up? I'm very skeptical.
posted by grouse at 8:48 AM on November 24, 2005
Can you cite a court case to back this up? I'm very skeptical.
posted by grouse at 8:48 AM on November 24, 2005
Agree grouse. There's no such loophole, infringement is infringement. Consumers of anime fansubs may have interpreted the fact that they happen to not get in trouble when there's no US distributor for a given fansub, but that in no way means that it's legal. Or perhaps he's confusing the "potential commercial market" criterium (one of several) of the fair use interpretation. Even then it so doesn't mean what he's trying to make it mean.
posted by Rhomboid at 9:12 AM on November 24, 2005
posted by Rhomboid at 9:12 AM on November 24, 2005
I should add I am a little skeptical of this information as well, as I said I wouldn't test it myself. I'm not sure where I even found this information, but as I remember, it came from a semi reliable source ( I assume it was an online news source like Yahoo or MSNBC). I believe it was explaining why these copies were being sold on ebay and the issue was not so much infringement as enforcement.
Our student group was once told by a European publisher of an OOP textbook that since they would no longer be distributing it, we could copy it and distribute it ourselves, as long as we charged only for the copy materials and our time. This seemed to reinforce the article when I read it.
In Twine42's case, it doesn't really matter as the material most likely has a distributor but is not being made available yet.
I apologize if my potential misinformation leads anyone into a life of criminal piracy.
posted by Yorrick at 10:23 AM on November 24, 2005
Our student group was once told by a European publisher of an OOP textbook that since they would no longer be distributing it, we could copy it and distribute it ourselves, as long as we charged only for the copy materials and our time. This seemed to reinforce the article when I read it.
In Twine42's case, it doesn't really matter as the material most likely has a distributor but is not being made available yet.
I apologize if my potential misinformation leads anyone into a life of criminal piracy.
posted by Yorrick at 10:23 AM on November 24, 2005
Do NOT send them back. AFAIK it's not legal to ship pirated materials, even if you are sending them back, so use that as leverage. I bought a couple of DVDs on eBay, with assurances that they were real but "imports"...of course they were about as fake as you can get. So I emailed the seller, said I wanted my money back because I received pirated materials. They asked me to ship them back, and I said no because I wasn't going to get myself in hot water by shipping pirated material. I said if I didn't receive a complete refund, I would notify eBay. So they refunded all my money and I kept the DVDs, just to shut me up, I'm sure.
Bootleggers make their living by making sure all their customers are satisfied, because eBay's fake police are pretty hard-core. So major bootleggers have very lenient return policies, and will usually try to make you happy even if it means losing a few bucks on their end. Even if they go another route and deny that they sent you fakes, the threat of alerting eBay's fraud dept. is still very negative for them, because the fraud dept. is pretty much pros at figuring out who's on the up-and-up. Good luck.
posted by apple scruff at 10:37 AM on November 24, 2005
Bootleggers make their living by making sure all their customers are satisfied, because eBay's fake police are pretty hard-core. So major bootleggers have very lenient return policies, and will usually try to make you happy even if it means losing a few bucks on their end. Even if they go another route and deny that they sent you fakes, the threat of alerting eBay's fraud dept. is still very negative for them, because the fraud dept. is pretty much pros at figuring out who's on the up-and-up. Good luck.
posted by apple scruff at 10:37 AM on November 24, 2005
As for what spooksie said, that's not a very likely scenario, because that ENSURES very, very negative feedback the seller, and it would be impossible for a seller to rely on that excuse as their protection. Any seller with multiple negative feedbacks saying "seller shipped me fake DVDs and denied it" wouldn't survive on eBay. And if those buyers all notified eBay about potential fraud, I doubt ebay would believe that multiple people conned the same seller in the exact same way. So I'm not saying it's not possible, but sellers are much more likely to rely on the shutting-you-up-by-making-you-happy method.
posted by apple scruff at 10:47 AM on November 24, 2005
posted by apple scruff at 10:47 AM on November 24, 2005
I just went through something similar 6 months ago, buying a DVD where the description did not mention at all that it was a fake copy. In my case, not only was it a fake copy, it also didn't have any of the special features in it (even though the description included the special features).
I made a decision to return the movie, based on the feedbacks the seller had. He had hundreds if not thousands of transactions, several over the past months, and over 99% was positive. I figured that his good reputation in ebay was more important to him than the lousy 5-6 bucks he was going to make from the one movie.
I did return it, and he did indeed refund my money back, including the shipping costs. Of course, I did have to pay to ship the DVD back.
After I received the payment, I left him a neutral feedback mentioning the fake DVDs. I also emailed both eBay and the MPAA with the full transaction information, including the persons real name and address (since he gave it to me so that I can return it the DVD). I received an automated feedback (a standard response message) from ebay saying that they would relay the information to the copyright holder. I never heard from MPAA. The person continues to sell DVDs on eBay even today, and still sells even the same DVDs, so I doubt anyone even tried to take action against him...
I hope some of this helps you to make your decision.
posted by tuxster at 6:48 PM on November 24, 2005
I made a decision to return the movie, based on the feedbacks the seller had. He had hundreds if not thousands of transactions, several over the past months, and over 99% was positive. I figured that his good reputation in ebay was more important to him than the lousy 5-6 bucks he was going to make from the one movie.
I did return it, and he did indeed refund my money back, including the shipping costs. Of course, I did have to pay to ship the DVD back.
After I received the payment, I left him a neutral feedback mentioning the fake DVDs. I also emailed both eBay and the MPAA with the full transaction information, including the persons real name and address (since he gave it to me so that I can return it the DVD). I received an automated feedback (a standard response message) from ebay saying that they would relay the information to the copyright holder. I never heard from MPAA. The person continues to sell DVDs on eBay even today, and still sells even the same DVDs, so I doubt anyone even tried to take action against him...
I hope some of this helps you to make your decision.
posted by tuxster at 6:48 PM on November 24, 2005
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by twine42 at 4:52 AM on November 24, 2005