Cross-cultural relationship, family problems
March 17, 2015 11:37 PM Subscribe
We are planning a future together... If only my family would accept him in spite of his race and religion. Snowflakes entail.
I am a female that was brought up in a very religious Muslim family in a predominantly Muslim country. At the age of 19 I left that country to a Western country and have resided here ever since. I am now nearing 30. I do not personally consider myself a Muslim. The type of Islam I was exposed to growing up made me feel oppressed, restricted and abused. Growing up I never felt like I belonged in that culture and never agreed with the corresponding Muslim faith and values. This discord within me was the primary reason I upped and left. However, despite moving thousands of miles away I am still in close contact with my family and they regularly travel to visit me here - about several times a year. While I am essentially opposed to their monolithic teachings and faith, whenever I am in contact with my family or my country's community I pretend to be a 'Muslim'. I do not voice my personal beliefs and I do not act the way I normally do. For me it is easier to pretend than to face their confrontation. It grates the heck out of me inside but the alternative is much worse.
My boyfriend and I have been together for 3 years, and have lived together for 1 year. We love each other greatly. He is a white Western man from a religious Christian family, though he himself is liberal and well-educated like me. Both of us personally disbelieve in organised religion in general, and disagree especially with the Islamic views. Recently we have started discussing about our future together, and we spoke about marriage and children down the line. We very much would like to be married with children in the next few years. The prospect makes me happy but it also fills me with dread. My family and their community would never accept him due to his race and religion, and in order for them to marginally accept him, he has to be converted to Islam.
My boyfriend knows about the dynamic I have with my family, and while he disapproves, he is supportive and said that if it would ultimately make me happy, he would go through with the conversion process to be accepted by my family. He would 'pretend' along with me when with my family and/or visiting my home country. This poses a lot of conflict within me. Pretending that way has been my way of life since forever, and it is second nature to me. But to force that kind of life on my future husband, or worse, my future children - is something I refuse to do. I don't want to marry a Muslim man, and I don't want to raise Muslim children, pretend or no.
My parents were very abusive to me growing up, and that abuse has rendered me completely spineless when confronted with them. I am completely unable to stand up to them, it is so mentally crippling. Sometimes I wish I could cut all contact with them, but I just couldn't bring myself to - the close familial values are so deeply ingrained within me that to do that would throw me into a pit of guilt, shame and fear. On the other hand, being with my boyfriend makes me truly unconditionally happy. The life that I have now, with him, in this society whose freedom and values I relate to - this is the life that I foresee myself living till the end.
I am going to therapy but my therapist is a Westerner, I feel like he doesn't really get the cultural differences and why it is very difficult for me to just drop my family. So I really need some perspective and advice on this. Anyone who's been in my shoes, or know anyone in my shoes. What did they do? How did it work out for them? Is there a happy ending? I really want to build a future with my boyfriend but I feel like I come with so much baggage that the future seems really bleak.
For the record they know about and grudgingly accept him as my boyfriend... well, as long as I don't marry him. My boyfriend's family, on the other hand, is MUCH more accepting of me. Although I don't think they'll be too happy if I make their son become Muslim.
I am a female that was brought up in a very religious Muslim family in a predominantly Muslim country. At the age of 19 I left that country to a Western country and have resided here ever since. I am now nearing 30. I do not personally consider myself a Muslim. The type of Islam I was exposed to growing up made me feel oppressed, restricted and abused. Growing up I never felt like I belonged in that culture and never agreed with the corresponding Muslim faith and values. This discord within me was the primary reason I upped and left. However, despite moving thousands of miles away I am still in close contact with my family and they regularly travel to visit me here - about several times a year. While I am essentially opposed to their monolithic teachings and faith, whenever I am in contact with my family or my country's community I pretend to be a 'Muslim'. I do not voice my personal beliefs and I do not act the way I normally do. For me it is easier to pretend than to face their confrontation. It grates the heck out of me inside but the alternative is much worse.
My boyfriend and I have been together for 3 years, and have lived together for 1 year. We love each other greatly. He is a white Western man from a religious Christian family, though he himself is liberal and well-educated like me. Both of us personally disbelieve in organised religion in general, and disagree especially with the Islamic views. Recently we have started discussing about our future together, and we spoke about marriage and children down the line. We very much would like to be married with children in the next few years. The prospect makes me happy but it also fills me with dread. My family and their community would never accept him due to his race and religion, and in order for them to marginally accept him, he has to be converted to Islam.
My boyfriend knows about the dynamic I have with my family, and while he disapproves, he is supportive and said that if it would ultimately make me happy, he would go through with the conversion process to be accepted by my family. He would 'pretend' along with me when with my family and/or visiting my home country. This poses a lot of conflict within me. Pretending that way has been my way of life since forever, and it is second nature to me. But to force that kind of life on my future husband, or worse, my future children - is something I refuse to do. I don't want to marry a Muslim man, and I don't want to raise Muslim children, pretend or no.
My parents were very abusive to me growing up, and that abuse has rendered me completely spineless when confronted with them. I am completely unable to stand up to them, it is so mentally crippling. Sometimes I wish I could cut all contact with them, but I just couldn't bring myself to - the close familial values are so deeply ingrained within me that to do that would throw me into a pit of guilt, shame and fear. On the other hand, being with my boyfriend makes me truly unconditionally happy. The life that I have now, with him, in this society whose freedom and values I relate to - this is the life that I foresee myself living till the end.
I am going to therapy but my therapist is a Westerner, I feel like he doesn't really get the cultural differences and why it is very difficult for me to just drop my family. So I really need some perspective and advice on this. Anyone who's been in my shoes, or know anyone in my shoes. What did they do? How did it work out for them? Is there a happy ending? I really want to build a future with my boyfriend but I feel like I come with so much baggage that the future seems really bleak.
For the record they know about and grudgingly accept him as my boyfriend... well, as long as I don't marry him. My boyfriend's family, on the other hand, is MUCH more accepting of me. Although I don't think they'll be too happy if I make their son become Muslim.
I'm did not grow up muslim, but I too went through abuse growing up from a family that was religious and came from a very sexist and VERY family oriented country and culture. I too had to "pretend" growing up until I became old enough to get out of there. In my case I cut my family out of my life completely (which may or may not be the right path for you) and I regret waiting until my late 20's to cut them out. I really feel like I wasted too many years under their thumb. Much of what you wrote is all too familiar to me.
"My parents were very abusive to me growing up, and that abuse has rendered me completely spineless when confronted with them."
But it is not that abuse that has rendered you this way. It is you and your thinking this way that has. This is very important to come to terms with because if you keep thinking it was your parents abuse that makes you like this then you will never be able to do anything about it. After all no one can change the past. Lots of us were abused in this manner and have stood up to them. Yes, I understand fully how lack of support growing up can affect how we react to things, but once we are adults we have to take responsibility for our reactions. Not only for our sake, but also for the sake of those we love.
"I am completely unable to stand up to them, it is so mentally crippling. Sometimes I wish I could cut all contact with them, but I just couldn't bring myself to - the close familial values are so deeply ingrained within me that to do that would throw me into a pit of guilt, shame and fear."
This is a huge problem that you need to fix before you get your boyfriend (soon your husband?) and a couple of children involved in this. It can open your children to all sorts of abuse. When you grow up in a family that is even slightly abusive it is of the utmost importance that you are able to defend your children against them and anyone else that may assume their role in your life. It is not uncommon for abusive family members to try to bully you in an effort to get some control over you and your children. As a mother your #1 priority needs to be protecting your children from those influences. If you cannot bring yourself to stand up to your family it is unlikely you will be able to stand up to them when they try to bring their abusive ways home to YOUR family. When that happens it is no longer a matter of someone who's "spineless" (just using your word) against her parents, but an unfit mother who feels she cannot defend her children or make her husband feel like she has his back by saying the word "no" against those who are trying to enforce abuse over them. I have seen things like this happen and it's terrible on the children and spouse. The spouse ends up feeling like the in-laws wishes are being put before them and the children grow up having very little respect for the parent that allows themselves to be bullied by their family members. The children can sometimes grow up to be very resentful of the parent that wouldn't stand up for them as well. It creates an enormous amount of stress within the family and sometimes leads to separations and divorce.
"I am going to therapy but my therapist is a Westerner, I feel like he doesn't really get the cultural differences and why it is very difficult for me to just drop my family."
That may be exactly what you need, though. If you feel this therapist isn't a good fit then it's good to seek another one that is perhaps more familiar with your culture, but a westerner that isn't tied to those false ideas (All cultures are really nothing more than a bunch of ideas and ideas only have as much power as you give to them) may be just what you need. A therapist that has better insight to your culture however might be good for giving you techniques and ways to circumvent your family in a way that might be better tolerated by the culture. YMMV.
"But to force that kind of life on my future husband, or worse, my future children - is something I refuse to do. I don't want to marry a Muslim man, and I don't want to raise Muslim children, pretend or no."
I feel you have more ability to stand up to your parents than you realize. Please do not force your innocent children and poor husband to deal with what you believe is your inability to stand up for yourself. It doesn't have to be that way. It looks like you will have the support of your fiance and his family so you don't have to be alone. "Standing up" to your parents also doesn't necessarily have to mean a huge battle. It can even be just moving far away from them and limiting contact. This may or may not be feasible, but I'm just pointing out that there are various ways to stand up for the life you and your future family deserve.
**side note** I knew a muslim woman who had children with a western man and one day her parents said they would babysit her kids. When she came back they were gone and she found out that her parents had tried to kidnap the kids to a muslim country because they didn't like how their daughter was raising them without religion. So they pretended to be ok with how they were being raised- making her feel like she could trust them with her kids. They were stopped at the airport, because she found out in time, but it was a close call. I don't know your parents, or what they are capable of, but if they were abusive towards you, you must be vigilant against possibilities such as these. Abusive & controlling people do not generally respect the wishes of their victims.
posted by rancher at 1:17 AM on March 18, 2015 [30 favorites]
"My parents were very abusive to me growing up, and that abuse has rendered me completely spineless when confronted with them."
But it is not that abuse that has rendered you this way. It is you and your thinking this way that has. This is very important to come to terms with because if you keep thinking it was your parents abuse that makes you like this then you will never be able to do anything about it. After all no one can change the past. Lots of us were abused in this manner and have stood up to them. Yes, I understand fully how lack of support growing up can affect how we react to things, but once we are adults we have to take responsibility for our reactions. Not only for our sake, but also for the sake of those we love.
"I am completely unable to stand up to them, it is so mentally crippling. Sometimes I wish I could cut all contact with them, but I just couldn't bring myself to - the close familial values are so deeply ingrained within me that to do that would throw me into a pit of guilt, shame and fear."
This is a huge problem that you need to fix before you get your boyfriend (soon your husband?) and a couple of children involved in this. It can open your children to all sorts of abuse. When you grow up in a family that is even slightly abusive it is of the utmost importance that you are able to defend your children against them and anyone else that may assume their role in your life. It is not uncommon for abusive family members to try to bully you in an effort to get some control over you and your children. As a mother your #1 priority needs to be protecting your children from those influences. If you cannot bring yourself to stand up to your family it is unlikely you will be able to stand up to them when they try to bring their abusive ways home to YOUR family. When that happens it is no longer a matter of someone who's "spineless" (just using your word) against her parents, but an unfit mother who feels she cannot defend her children or make her husband feel like she has his back by saying the word "no" against those who are trying to enforce abuse over them. I have seen things like this happen and it's terrible on the children and spouse. The spouse ends up feeling like the in-laws wishes are being put before them and the children grow up having very little respect for the parent that allows themselves to be bullied by their family members. The children can sometimes grow up to be very resentful of the parent that wouldn't stand up for them as well. It creates an enormous amount of stress within the family and sometimes leads to separations and divorce.
"I am going to therapy but my therapist is a Westerner, I feel like he doesn't really get the cultural differences and why it is very difficult for me to just drop my family."
That may be exactly what you need, though. If you feel this therapist isn't a good fit then it's good to seek another one that is perhaps more familiar with your culture, but a westerner that isn't tied to those false ideas (All cultures are really nothing more than a bunch of ideas and ideas only have as much power as you give to them) may be just what you need. A therapist that has better insight to your culture however might be good for giving you techniques and ways to circumvent your family in a way that might be better tolerated by the culture. YMMV.
"But to force that kind of life on my future husband, or worse, my future children - is something I refuse to do. I don't want to marry a Muslim man, and I don't want to raise Muslim children, pretend or no."
I feel you have more ability to stand up to your parents than you realize. Please do not force your innocent children and poor husband to deal with what you believe is your inability to stand up for yourself. It doesn't have to be that way. It looks like you will have the support of your fiance and his family so you don't have to be alone. "Standing up" to your parents also doesn't necessarily have to mean a huge battle. It can even be just moving far away from them and limiting contact. This may or may not be feasible, but I'm just pointing out that there are various ways to stand up for the life you and your future family deserve.
**side note** I knew a muslim woman who had children with a western man and one day her parents said they would babysit her kids. When she came back they were gone and she found out that her parents had tried to kidnap the kids to a muslim country because they didn't like how their daughter was raising them without religion. So they pretended to be ok with how they were being raised- making her feel like she could trust them with her kids. They were stopped at the airport, because she found out in time, but it was a close call. I don't know your parents, or what they are capable of, but if they were abusive towards you, you must be vigilant against possibilities such as these. Abusive & controlling people do not generally respect the wishes of their victims.
posted by rancher at 1:17 AM on March 18, 2015 [30 favorites]
My female friend is Jewish and she met a staunch athiest and fell in love. Her father didn't try and stop them from dating, but made it clear that he would disown her if she married a non jew. That would have been very traumatic for her, believe me! But eventually they came to a place where her boyfriend decided to convert so that they could marry and she could maintain her family ties.
posted by catspajammies at 1:23 AM on March 18, 2015
posted by catspajammies at 1:23 AM on March 18, 2015
first of all: hugs. it's complicated, because this is so common in my social milieu it's almost not worth remarking. I will say that it's a lot easier to go with this public face/private life disconnect if your family's onboard as well and/or you're rich enough tht you're insulated from the legal repercussions of the religious and moral policing.
It gets harder if any of the above doesn't apply to you. As far as I've observed, you've got to be prepared for the long-haul. A friend of mine is herself a local Muslim, and married another local Muslim, but she's of bicultural/biracial background and herself not too observant, however she married into a deeply conservative family so she's on permanent lie-mode with them about her state of hijab-wearing for example. It's easier if you can continue to live overseas, but it does mean having to minimise or sever ties with people from your community (like I noticed, when living overseas, the ones who are noticeably 'my people' are the ones who subscribe to a more conservative thinking and would police your social behaviour so I did reduce all possible interactions with them). But if your family is like that, then living away would probably be a better bet in keeping his state of faith away from their attention even if he'd have to officially convert.
And that's just the social conditions alone. There is also the matter of legal problems down the line, if you come from a country where parts of family law is enforceable through a supposedly syariah route, though since you're the woman and your boyfriend your future husband, at least that can save you in the future if you insist that all matters of inheritance etc follow his (western laws).
but the long and the short of it is, you really do have to accept and be prepared for a double life. The successful cases in my experience, for those who live in the same country as their family, is if their family also actually shares their values (but it's just that they're all constrained by the laws and social norms). If not, if you can't handle having to constantly justify yourself (and protect yourself from legal repercussions), then you have to contemplate never coming back beyond visits. (unless of course you're rich, like i said above.)
posted by cendawanita at 2:08 AM on March 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
It gets harder if any of the above doesn't apply to you. As far as I've observed, you've got to be prepared for the long-haul. A friend of mine is herself a local Muslim, and married another local Muslim, but she's of bicultural/biracial background and herself not too observant, however she married into a deeply conservative family so she's on permanent lie-mode with them about her state of hijab-wearing for example. It's easier if you can continue to live overseas, but it does mean having to minimise or sever ties with people from your community (like I noticed, when living overseas, the ones who are noticeably 'my people' are the ones who subscribe to a more conservative thinking and would police your social behaviour so I did reduce all possible interactions with them). But if your family is like that, then living away would probably be a better bet in keeping his state of faith away from their attention even if he'd have to officially convert.
And that's just the social conditions alone. There is also the matter of legal problems down the line, if you come from a country where parts of family law is enforceable through a supposedly syariah route, though since you're the woman and your boyfriend your future husband, at least that can save you in the future if you insist that all matters of inheritance etc follow his (western laws).
but the long and the short of it is, you really do have to accept and be prepared for a double life. The successful cases in my experience, for those who live in the same country as their family, is if their family also actually shares their values (but it's just that they're all constrained by the laws and social norms). If not, if you can't handle having to constantly justify yourself (and protect yourself from legal repercussions), then you have to contemplate never coming back beyond visits. (unless of course you're rich, like i said above.)
posted by cendawanita at 2:08 AM on March 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
I don't think you should pretend and he shouldn't convert. If your family want to argue about it, just do not engage. Let them talk if they want, but don't respond to criticism and don't justify yourself: you don't have to. Live your life the way you want to, stay patient, open and accomodating to them, but not to the point where you have to tell lies about yourself. Your life is yours, don't be bullied out of owning it.
posted by Segundus at 2:54 AM on March 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by Segundus at 2:54 AM on March 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
I'm so sorry you have to deal with this. It sounds incredibly challenging. I don't mean to be harsh but ask yourself what do you want to model for your future children? It's pretty clear from you posting that you don't want to model victim hood. So what would healthy, loving adulthood look like to you and you husband? I lied about when I got married because I was afraid of my dad. It wasn't until years later that I stood up to him. I regret all the wasted years of catering to his narcissistic demands. YMMV, but again, what do you want to teach your children? I promise they will adopt many of your least-favorite traits unless you change now. And it sounds like you want to. Good luck!
posted by Bella Donna at 3:01 AM on March 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 3:01 AM on March 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
If you marry him, you will truly start a new life.
posted by amtho at 3:42 AM on March 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by amtho at 3:42 AM on March 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
I'm from a Muslim Arab family, though I grew up in the states. My family (stateside) is not religious, but those cultural ties are strong. I am not religious, and have especially little patience for Islam. My siblings are the same.
Anecdata: I'm dating a Jewish guy. My mom freaked out ("Arabs and Jews can never mix! My family will never accept this!") and I told her I would not tolerate any of that and that I will live my own life. Full stop. I'm in my 30s. I get to decide how to live my life, and I figure out ways to make myself happy. If I don't, no one else will. She backed off. I told my father last night. He laughed, which I knew he would. If I marry this guy I would never ask him to convert (he also would never convert), but I know that my contact with my family in the Middle East will be very limited, as I can't bring him there, etc. but I will have the support of my family stateside. I decided in the end I will not bend to backwards racist religious crap, and if that means losing contact with extended family, so be it. And if my mother continued with her racist crap, I was also prepared to walk away. I'm not living her life, I'm living mine. (And similar to you, I will not marry a Muslim man. Never even dated one. Never even entertained the thought.)
My sister married a Christian guy, but they were living in the Middle East and did have extensive contact with the extended family. He converted. It's a joke. Everyone kind of knows it. They're back in the states, drinking artisan beer and hanging out in very non-Muslim ways.
And with all due respect, your therapist is right. You cannot change your family, you cannot change their religion, you cannot change their views. If they come around, great. If not, that is truly their loss and it's a tragic one. But they made that decision, not you. And it's hard for people from ANY culture to cut ties with family, not just Muslim ones. If I were you I'd focus more on the ways your family's abuse has resulted in you being unable to stand up for yourself--that isn't permanent, you know, and you can definitely learn ways to better understand that abuse and recover from it.
And that's the hard way. You can also do what Muslims in inter-religious relationships have done forever: make your partner convert (it's convenient it's such an easy religion to convert to), put on a happy face for the abusive family, and move on with your life. This option is not palatable to me, but I understand why it works for so many others.
Good luck.
posted by namemeansgazelle at 6:29 AM on March 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
Anecdata: I'm dating a Jewish guy. My mom freaked out ("Arabs and Jews can never mix! My family will never accept this!") and I told her I would not tolerate any of that and that I will live my own life. Full stop. I'm in my 30s. I get to decide how to live my life, and I figure out ways to make myself happy. If I don't, no one else will. She backed off. I told my father last night. He laughed, which I knew he would. If I marry this guy I would never ask him to convert (he also would never convert), but I know that my contact with my family in the Middle East will be very limited, as I can't bring him there, etc. but I will have the support of my family stateside. I decided in the end I will not bend to backwards racist religious crap, and if that means losing contact with extended family, so be it. And if my mother continued with her racist crap, I was also prepared to walk away. I'm not living her life, I'm living mine. (And similar to you, I will not marry a Muslim man. Never even dated one. Never even entertained the thought.)
My sister married a Christian guy, but they were living in the Middle East and did have extensive contact with the extended family. He converted. It's a joke. Everyone kind of knows it. They're back in the states, drinking artisan beer and hanging out in very non-Muslim ways.
And with all due respect, your therapist is right. You cannot change your family, you cannot change their religion, you cannot change their views. If they come around, great. If not, that is truly their loss and it's a tragic one. But they made that decision, not you. And it's hard for people from ANY culture to cut ties with family, not just Muslim ones. If I were you I'd focus more on the ways your family's abuse has resulted in you being unable to stand up for yourself--that isn't permanent, you know, and you can definitely learn ways to better understand that abuse and recover from it.
And that's the hard way. You can also do what Muslims in inter-religious relationships have done forever: make your partner convert (it's convenient it's such an easy religion to convert to), put on a happy face for the abusive family, and move on with your life. This option is not palatable to me, but I understand why it works for so many others.
Good luck.
posted by namemeansgazelle at 6:29 AM on March 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
If you marry him, you will truly start a new life.
I think this is a great thing to remember. I'm very close to my family, so it's possible I might have a small inkliog of how hard it would be to make a change that would make them that angry. But I think there could be a lot of comfort in the NEW family you would be creating with your husband, that might help you absorb the shock of being on the outs with your family of origin. I know it's nowhere near the same thing, because of the cultural and religious aspect, but my father's parents were vehemently opposed to his marrying my mother. He compensated for that by insisting we create our own family traditions that didn't include them.
I agree that it could also be very helpful for you to seek out a therapist of non-Western origins, *particularly* one who has made a similar transition to Western life themselves. After all, that's kind of what you need to do here - keep the aspects of your culture of origin that work for you, but essentially live a life that more resembles that of your adopted country.
It might also be helpful if your therapist has experience treating adult survivors of child abuse.
I just want to wish you and your partner all the best.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:30 AM on March 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think this is a great thing to remember. I'm very close to my family, so it's possible I might have a small inkliog of how hard it would be to make a change that would make them that angry. But I think there could be a lot of comfort in the NEW family you would be creating with your husband, that might help you absorb the shock of being on the outs with your family of origin. I know it's nowhere near the same thing, because of the cultural and religious aspect, but my father's parents were vehemently opposed to his marrying my mother. He compensated for that by insisting we create our own family traditions that didn't include them.
I agree that it could also be very helpful for you to seek out a therapist of non-Western origins, *particularly* one who has made a similar transition to Western life themselves. After all, that's kind of what you need to do here - keep the aspects of your culture of origin that work for you, but essentially live a life that more resembles that of your adopted country.
It might also be helpful if your therapist has experience treating adult survivors of child abuse.
I just want to wish you and your partner all the best.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 6:30 AM on March 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
While there are certainly (obviously) cultural issues at play, don't minimize the abusive dynamic that's also very much at play. Your therapist and other Westerners are likely coming from a place of wanting you (and any future children) to be safe from abuse, not necessarily just from the belief that family ties aren't as important.
posted by jaguar at 6:50 AM on March 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by jaguar at 6:50 AM on March 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
My husband is Muslim from a Muslim country. I grew up (NY) in an abusive dysfunctional household, and have cut ties with my family. My father dropped out of my life when I married my husband. I'm pretty sure I can speak to your struggle.
"It grates the heck out of me inside but the alternative is much worse."
This is your problem.
That statement is so many times demonstrably false - I just can't.
Look. You're never going back to your abusers. Living in two worlds will eventually cripple you anyway (ask me how I know.) This pit of guilt and shame you mention is in your head, and you've already rejected it by moving thousands of miles away, so let it go already.
This conflict is not between your boyfriend and your family. It's unfair and disrespectful to yourself and your boyfriend to frame it that way. The conflict is between you and your abusive culture and your abusive past, and any (all?) abusive family.
Are you ever going back to all that?
Your relationship with your boyfriend may not work out, but your relationship with yourself is forever.
We both know you're not going back to that abuse. Stop pretending to yourself and your abusers that any of that still has control over you. For your own sake. For your future.
PS - You don't have to make big announcements, explain yourself, apologize. You can make the transition as fraught or as drama-free as you want it to be. 99.9% of it is in your head, including whatever you feel for your parents and family. Look where you are, you've already moved on. You don't have to blow up the relationships or anything, it's just.... Whenever I see abuse survivors on the green trying to maintain connections with their abusive past, I know they still have a few steps to go. Come join us here on the other side, the air is cleaner and you'll never look back, except with compassion and pity. Once the anger subsides, anyway, because you'll have some of that when you finally break free. Mostly, you'll be angry you didn't live your own life sooner.
So don't wait. Embrace emotionally stable living, both inside of yourself and outside. Be congruent with yourself. It's the only way forward. Let's hope everyone you love comes along, if not, you'll save a space for them in your heart. Maybe one day, they'll overcome their abuse, too.
Set the example. Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 6:50 AM on March 18, 2015 [16 favorites]
"It grates the heck out of me inside but the alternative is much worse."
This is your problem.
That statement is so many times demonstrably false - I just can't.
Look. You're never going back to your abusers. Living in two worlds will eventually cripple you anyway (ask me how I know.) This pit of guilt and shame you mention is in your head, and you've already rejected it by moving thousands of miles away, so let it go already.
This conflict is not between your boyfriend and your family. It's unfair and disrespectful to yourself and your boyfriend to frame it that way. The conflict is between you and your abusive culture and your abusive past, and any (all?) abusive family.
Are you ever going back to all that?
Your relationship with your boyfriend may not work out, but your relationship with yourself is forever.
We both know you're not going back to that abuse. Stop pretending to yourself and your abusers that any of that still has control over you. For your own sake. For your future.
PS - You don't have to make big announcements, explain yourself, apologize. You can make the transition as fraught or as drama-free as you want it to be. 99.9% of it is in your head, including whatever you feel for your parents and family. Look where you are, you've already moved on. You don't have to blow up the relationships or anything, it's just.... Whenever I see abuse survivors on the green trying to maintain connections with their abusive past, I know they still have a few steps to go. Come join us here on the other side, the air is cleaner and you'll never look back, except with compassion and pity. Once the anger subsides, anyway, because you'll have some of that when you finally break free. Mostly, you'll be angry you didn't live your own life sooner.
So don't wait. Embrace emotionally stable living, both inside of yourself and outside. Be congruent with yourself. It's the only way forward. Let's hope everyone you love comes along, if not, you'll save a space for them in your heart. Maybe one day, they'll overcome their abuse, too.
Set the example. Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 6:50 AM on March 18, 2015 [16 favorites]
I know the above was really long. What I was trying to say was that your family seems to "get" that you're not going backwards, and they are still your family. I think you live your truth and let them embrace you or not.
My husband is in regular contact with his family. You can do it, too.
posted by jbenben at 6:55 AM on March 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
My husband is in regular contact with his family. You can do it, too.
posted by jbenben at 6:55 AM on March 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
One thing that strikes me about your post is you are taking on so much personal responsibility for everyone else's actions. You say your boyfriend is willing to convert, but you later refer to how his family will feel about you if you "make" him convert. Similarly, you are worried that if you marry your boyfriend, you will be forcing your family to cut off ties with you, that this separation would be essentially your fault.
I know some of this is cultural, but some of it also sounds like the language of someone who was abused as a child and learned that everything is their fault. But really, even in much less individualized cultures than North America/Western Europe, you can only control your own behavior. You can't make your boyfriend convert - it's something he may choose to do out of love for you. Similarly, you can't make your family members reject you - there are many, many other ways they could react while still honoring their own culture/religion. If they choose to reject you, of course that will be painful but it will not be your fault.
posted by lunasol at 7:09 AM on March 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
I know some of this is cultural, but some of it also sounds like the language of someone who was abused as a child and learned that everything is their fault. But really, even in much less individualized cultures than North America/Western Europe, you can only control your own behavior. You can't make your boyfriend convert - it's something he may choose to do out of love for you. Similarly, you can't make your family members reject you - there are many, many other ways they could react while still honoring their own culture/religion. If they choose to reject you, of course that will be painful but it will not be your fault.
posted by lunasol at 7:09 AM on March 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
How about if you reframe it as your parents' decision to cut you off? As in "I intend to live my life in the fashion that I want, with the partner that I want. If you choose to cut ties with me because of your beliefs, then that is your choice. I will still be here to accept you if you change your mind."
posted by Liesl at 7:24 AM on March 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Liesl at 7:24 AM on March 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm a white American therapist who has worked with a fair number of adult children of immigrants who feel caught between two cultures and who want to honor their parents and family and culture while also living their own lives, and I try to be extremely conscious of my own individualist biases when working with those clients to find the balance that they desire, even if it's not personally how I'd handle my own family. I've also worked with a lot of adult survivors of child abuse who are terrified to defy their parents because of how life-threatening they fear the consequences will be. As lunasol says, a lot of what you've written reminds me much more of the second category, which may be why you're getting the feedback you're getting from your therapist. It may be helpful for you to explore that aspect of the situation with him, rather than assuming he doesn't understand the cultural piece.
posted by jaguar at 7:27 AM on March 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by jaguar at 7:27 AM on March 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
You and your boyfriend remind me of my parents. My parents were both adult immigrants to the US. My dad was a brown, Indo-Pakistani Muslim, and mom was a blue-eyed, very fair Catholic Italian. In their situation, it was my mom's Catholic family that was much more rigid and conservative, never wholly accepting of my parents cross-cultural, cross-religious union (my mom later converted to Islam, totally and completely her own sincere choice - not pressured by my dad or his family).
As the mixed child of one of these complicated situations, I am so, so incredibly grateful for my parents. They have both since passed away, but I feel very confident that I could marry a purple, weird creature or species created in some laboratory of a mad scientist, whether plant or animal, and know I'd have their support provided I was happy and safe. You have the opportunity to create a whole new set of options and choices for you, your partner, and the children you may have. I know what my parents went through wasn't easy, and often came with a lot of grief - but I'm grateful and so very proud of them.
We were raised Muslim (practicing, religious, but not super conservative). I am an atheist. My siblings and some other people in "the community" know, because I've either told them, had philosophical discussions with them, or general insinuation from my opting out of various religious-cultural occasions. There are some times where I've definitely faked it, and I don't like doing that. I don't need to go into those details here, but they are occasions that I don't feel sacrifice me being who I am, and are/were occasions where I might be supporting someone else. So I kind of think of those "pretending" occasions differently.
You have the right to create your own narrative, provided you are reasonably respectful of the beliefs of others, like your family (even though you may not get the same in return). There's no need to get into religious debates or discussions, or be critical of their beliefs. You don't need to go into details, as that tends to bring even more heat and drama. Some people are receptive to honest philosophical discussion - some people, like a lot of conservative religious types (I do have those in my extended family), don't believe deep philosophical discussions (including areas of doubt) is even an *option.*
I think you should be a little more honest and open with your family, but avoid the details. They're going to ask questions, to provoke you and get you to return. Don't engage. Be polite, honest, and simple in your words. Don't get into a question/answer pattern. Express yourself through a medium that is comfortable for you, to allow you the room to express yourself without feeling interrupted or dismissed. Whether through a paper letter in the mail, e-mail, Skype, in person, etc. They may open their understanding slightly, if you start showing them who you truly are (a loving, caring, family-oriented person who just believes a bit differently). Or they may never accept it at all.
My parents were married for almost 21 years, when my mom died of cancer. She was a Muslim for nearly two decades. Her family still insisted on having a priest present for her burial. It was profoundly disrespectful not to my dad or my siblings and I, but to my mom and HER sovereign choices. I did not grow up knowing my Italian/Catholic side of the family, and their lack of acceptance made my parents adopt some needed boundaries, like physically moving several states away from them. I know it must have been very painful for my mom. As adults now, I've had a little interaction with my cousins on that side, and they've all been kind and completely non-judgmental over religious-cultural differences, and very sensitive to our possible differences (even though we're very "American"). There is room for ideological change over time, especially through the generations.
You have the right to make your own happiness, and if that means creating a life with someone others don't approve of, so be it. Do you feel the need to decide the life choices of others, including your family members? No? Then they don't have a right to control yours.
posted by raztaj at 7:29 AM on March 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
As the mixed child of one of these complicated situations, I am so, so incredibly grateful for my parents. They have both since passed away, but I feel very confident that I could marry a purple, weird creature or species created in some laboratory of a mad scientist, whether plant or animal, and know I'd have their support provided I was happy and safe. You have the opportunity to create a whole new set of options and choices for you, your partner, and the children you may have. I know what my parents went through wasn't easy, and often came with a lot of grief - but I'm grateful and so very proud of them.
We were raised Muslim (practicing, religious, but not super conservative). I am an atheist. My siblings and some other people in "the community" know, because I've either told them, had philosophical discussions with them, or general insinuation from my opting out of various religious-cultural occasions. There are some times where I've definitely faked it, and I don't like doing that. I don't need to go into those details here, but they are occasions that I don't feel sacrifice me being who I am, and are/were occasions where I might be supporting someone else. So I kind of think of those "pretending" occasions differently.
You have the right to create your own narrative, provided you are reasonably respectful of the beliefs of others, like your family (even though you may not get the same in return). There's no need to get into religious debates or discussions, or be critical of their beliefs. You don't need to go into details, as that tends to bring even more heat and drama. Some people are receptive to honest philosophical discussion - some people, like a lot of conservative religious types (I do have those in my extended family), don't believe deep philosophical discussions (including areas of doubt) is even an *option.*
I think you should be a little more honest and open with your family, but avoid the details. They're going to ask questions, to provoke you and get you to return. Don't engage. Be polite, honest, and simple in your words. Don't get into a question/answer pattern. Express yourself through a medium that is comfortable for you, to allow you the room to express yourself without feeling interrupted or dismissed. Whether through a paper letter in the mail, e-mail, Skype, in person, etc. They may open their understanding slightly, if you start showing them who you truly are (a loving, caring, family-oriented person who just believes a bit differently). Or they may never accept it at all.
My parents were married for almost 21 years, when my mom died of cancer. She was a Muslim for nearly two decades. Her family still insisted on having a priest present for her burial. It was profoundly disrespectful not to my dad or my siblings and I, but to my mom and HER sovereign choices. I did not grow up knowing my Italian/Catholic side of the family, and their lack of acceptance made my parents adopt some needed boundaries, like physically moving several states away from them. I know it must have been very painful for my mom. As adults now, I've had a little interaction with my cousins on that side, and they've all been kind and completely non-judgmental over religious-cultural differences, and very sensitive to our possible differences (even though we're very "American"). There is room for ideological change over time, especially through the generations.
You have the right to make your own happiness, and if that means creating a life with someone others don't approve of, so be it. Do you feel the need to decide the life choices of others, including your family members? No? Then they don't have a right to control yours.
posted by raztaj at 7:29 AM on March 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
I'm Muslim. Have grown up in more than one culture, currently live in a Muslim majority country, but a lot of my family lives in the US. So I understand the cultural challenge of extricating yourself from family norms and beliefs. And I have some familiarity with the difficulties that Western therapists have in understanding more intertwined family structures.
I think you have received some good advice here :
1) try to find a therapist with a closer cultural background;
2) work with the therapist on building your own confidence in asserting your freedom to make your own decisions ;
3) recognize that asserting your freedom does not have to be loud and dramatic, nor does it have to be dishonest;
4) Some people do the conversion in name because it makes a lot of paperwork much easier if they are going to visit the home country; to my knowledge that kind of conversion only works when the family is aware and accepting that it is simply an accommodation of convenience. It doesn't sound like this would be the case for you.
Good luck. I hope you find a happy path.
posted by bardophile at 7:30 AM on March 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
I think you have received some good advice here :
1) try to find a therapist with a closer cultural background;
2) work with the therapist on building your own confidence in asserting your freedom to make your own decisions ;
3) recognize that asserting your freedom does not have to be loud and dramatic, nor does it have to be dishonest;
4) Some people do the conversion in name because it makes a lot of paperwork much easier if they are going to visit the home country; to my knowledge that kind of conversion only works when the family is aware and accepting that it is simply an accommodation of convenience. It doesn't sound like this would be the case for you.
Good luck. I hope you find a happy path.
posted by bardophile at 7:30 AM on March 18, 2015 [4 favorites]
and I don't want to raise Muslim children, pretend or no
All the other good comments in this thread aside, let's say you get through everything else (bf converts or pretends to, his family doesn't care, you get married, you keep up the charade during visits, the double life doesn't weigh you down emotionally, etc.) - when kids come into play your "plan" will fall apart.
Once kids start talking there is a stage of their life where keeping a consistent backstory going is not among their skillset. It won't be long before they blab about how they do certain things only when the grandparents visit, whine about wanting to do things like they "normally" do when the grandparents or extended family are not around or forget details of certain experiences/ceremonies they supposedly went through.
But let's say you make it through the early years somehow. Your kids will be learning "it's ok to lie to parents if something will make them or me uncomfortable or if they will disapprove" as a core value. That is a dangerous attitude and the exact opposite of the relationship you want with your kids as they enter their pre-teen/teenage years.
posted by mikepop at 7:34 AM on March 18, 2015 [12 favorites]
All the other good comments in this thread aside, let's say you get through everything else (bf converts or pretends to, his family doesn't care, you get married, you keep up the charade during visits, the double life doesn't weigh you down emotionally, etc.) - when kids come into play your "plan" will fall apart.
Once kids start talking there is a stage of their life where keeping a consistent backstory going is not among their skillset. It won't be long before they blab about how they do certain things only when the grandparents visit, whine about wanting to do things like they "normally" do when the grandparents or extended family are not around or forget details of certain experiences/ceremonies they supposedly went through.
But let's say you make it through the early years somehow. Your kids will be learning "it's ok to lie to parents if something will make them or me uncomfortable or if they will disapprove" as a core value. That is a dangerous attitude and the exact opposite of the relationship you want with your kids as they enter their pre-teen/teenage years.
posted by mikepop at 7:34 AM on March 18, 2015 [12 favorites]
From an anonymous answerer:
OP, when I read your question, I felt like I was reliving events in my life. I'm a first-generation Pakistani-American with a white fiancee and I'm more-or-less secular with having grown up in an emotionally neglectful and abusive household. Let me tell you something about the culture that we have grown up (and yes Islam is a religion but there's a culture within religiosity that you and I have both been subject to) and that is Muslim parents care A LOT about status and reputation. If your boyfriend converts (like my fiancee offered to), he is doing your parents a favor. An omission of "Well, he's not very practicing like my daughter" is psychologically way more preferable than the outright lie they'd have to make about your lack of visibility). That affords you more leverage than you would think.posted by restless_nomad at 6:12 PM on March 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
The one place where we differ is that I've always been an outspoken daughter (much to my detriment going up I should add) but this has set a common place with my parents that there's rarely any shit I would put up with. When they were pressuring me and my then-boyfriend of 4 months to marry, I took a huge stance and moved in with my now-fiancee and his family. Things were rocky for a good eight or nine months but once we both took the initiative to marry each other, it was like my parents forgot we had ever fought and are now very accepting of my fiancee (on the caveat that he converts ofc). I'm not saying that this is essentially the narrative you'll be leading to if you give in on the conversion but just to illustrate two things: 1) my parents understood that my fiancee and I had leverage over their reputations and 2) I've always been outspoken and my own advocate so when my fiancee and I agreed to convert my parents understood that it was OUR decision and not me subverting to theirs.
Also I felt a lot of guilt and shame during these eight months and it was an existential crisis I would not wish upon anyone but I would felt WAY worse not sticking up for not just me but for the love of my life because that's what I was really doing and my fiancee always makes it a point to remind me that I have proven that our love is a priority.
You need to be more upfront with your parents, not necessarily with your words, not even your actions but with the energy you exude with both. Don't be so acquiescing. I'll be honest. If you want to remain cultural and familial ties, conversion is most likely gonna have to happen, but that doesn't mean you're signing your whole life away, especially your eventual children's!! If you don't want to pray five times a day and there are no extended relatives / family friend's in sight, don't do it!! Hell, even if there are extended relatives / family friend's in sight, you don't have to pray (I don't). The worst they'll say is that you're not a good Muslim, which is better to your parents than you and your husband/children not being visibily Muslim. So ok, when you visit them, don't eat pork, don't drink, etc and oh but they can always brag that they converted a non-Muslim, which you know is a major boon and apparently sins-forgiver for the man up top.
Just a little advice for your boyfriend/family interactions: Whenever my fiancee comes over, my dad appoints himself as this like an honorary imam and will just preach and I either a) change the subject or b) start joking A LOT.
I live eight minutes away from my family and even then I visit only when I want to. You live in a separate country from them. It's different because they visit you but I'm sure they're not gonna waste money on plane tickets if you're like "This date does not work for me because of such and such reason". I bullshit to my parents all the time when I'm feeling conflict/confrontation-averse and even living eight minutes away in a situation where my family could easily visit me, my parents now wait for me to initiate the contact. This part is unintentional but I don't charge my phone a lot and so even if it's my mom's initiative to try to call me and leave voice-mails, when I call her back in guilt-ridden shame, my mom (as horrible as it is) waiting on ME to respond. This has made me realize that I have more control over the relationship than I thought.
As for your children, raise them the way you want and just let them know that their grandparents think/believe differently. Besides, how many times are your parents gonna visit that they can exert control? Influential, sure, but exert control? You and your boyfriend are going to be their every-day authority figures. Still, I do think this is when you're gonna have to have more of a backbone. It's not always easy defending yourself but when it concerns someone you love (like in the case of my fiancee), you might be surprised to find how much easier it is to defend someone you want to protect. If your parents are coming strong with the religiosity, then you start enlisting boundaries. Your parents know that they don't get to see you everyday. When grandchildren are in the mix, they're going to especially feel like they don't get to see you everyday. Again, you're gonna have more leverage than you think. It's just about the mindset you filter things in. Do you see yourself encapsulated in the same adolescent helplessness or can you align, not only your convictions, but your actions with fiery self-assurance?
If finding a new therapist would better suit your needs, go for it. I would also see if Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) would be beneficial. I think to be a more proactive and not reactive mindset, you have to be restructure your thoughts. The added benefit of CBT is that your therapist wouldn't have to conceptualize the same cultural paradigms. It would be YOU learning to conceptualize new mental paradigms that would be highly beneficial. Talk therapy is still beneficial too but it might be easier to find a CBT therapist than a therapist that can empathize with our cultural/religious paradigms.
One thing I will say and then I'll give the therapy angle a rest, is that you have to construct a mental reality in not having any connections with your family will not ruin your life and you'll end up okay. I had such a strong conviction that, no matter what, if I valued authenticity, even at the expense of my family, I would be okay. Also, like you, I have a great life partner who enriches my life and my soul and I was not going to devalue authenticity at the expense of this amazing person. If that meant that I would be losing my family so be it. My life partner had demonstrated in those four months more of a loving, supportive family than my own family had over 21 years. This was/still is the bedrock of my fiery self-assurance. Therapy can help you with this goal.
As for his family, don't let them know. HONESTLY, it's not worth it. That's how we're doing it with my fiancee's family. Why would I want their judgement on a situation that does not affect them? If their son/brother doesn't convert, guess who's life it actually affects? MINE. Simple as that.
I know my question is coming from the angle of acquiescing but I think that that western paradigm of complete individualism can be daunting in application to people like us who have grown up in a very collectivist environment and I don't think you can use a low-context solution for a high-context problem. You want to be part of your family (a collective group?), you have to give up at least a little bit but don't give up your whole self!
I'm about to be 22, you're nearly 30. My oldest sister finally moved out when she was thirty. Unmarried. This happened two weeks before I got kicked out. She was opposite from me. She rarely expressed how much she truly did not agree with my parents. They were dumbfounded when she said she never wanted to get married this time, despite appeasing their needs to look for matches for her.
You're moved out like my sister and like me. You have a great life partner. You have leverage over their reputations and their access to not only you (their daughter) but eventually their grandchildren. You have so much more control than you think.
This is a very psychologically fraught/soul-crushing kind of issue and it takes a lot of upheaval. I've been in your position before and it's very isolating, wanting to be connected to your family but knowing that it's difficult for that connection to be on your terms. I'm not sure if I'm as authentic as I'd like with my family but I still hold a high level of authenticity in my life and with my partner so I didn't sacrifice much integrity-wise. I wish you the best, OP.
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Additionally, it's possible that talking through this with some friends/acquaintances from non-western cultures may also help. Without minimising the unique aspects of your particular Muslim background, I have seen this kind of struggle play out with western/non-western relationships from many different cultures, e.g lots of Asian. While the situation is obviously never going to be 100% the same, you may still find something of value there if you know anyone that fits the bill. Apologies if you don't.
posted by smoke at 1:01 AM on March 18, 2015 [6 favorites]