How do I balance my desire to 'pay it forward' with common sense?
October 26, 2014 1:44 PM Subscribe
Fundamentally, how does a person learn to say 'no' kindly, even when they have more than the asker? How can I be firm, without being cruel, to those who are less advantaged?
I'm embarrassed to be asking this question. My life is far from perfect, but I have also been extremely fortunate and I realize it. I think I have guilt about my blessings, and often self sabotage. Frequently, I have given until I'm nearly in need of help myself, simply because I can't say no when others ask something of me. I haven't always been so lucky, mostly because of the self sabotage thing, so its a miracle in some ways I'm still in one piece mentally and physically. Still, though I've made tons of progress in many areas of my life, I still can't seem to say 'no.' Well, that is not entirely true, I DO have trouble saying no, even to myself, but I find it nearly impossible to say no to someone who has less than I do.
As a specific example, I like to stay late at work because its quiet, and I live within walking distance. The office manager knows I do this. I often do a little work, and then kick back with some tv. I'm not hurting anyone. I'm usually here late enough that I stay past the cleaning staff. Actually, I think its a mother and son team, and they almost always have two younger girls with them.
I haven't thought anything of it, but the other day I was grabbing a snack for myself in the kitchen when the son came up to me and, in quite an accusatory and confrontational tone, said something like "I don't know what you are doing here so late, but could you tell the office manager. We have been getting complaints from her about crumbs, and garbage in the trash cans." I admit I am probably not the tidiest person in the world, and I felt really bad that my mess might cost this person's family their livelihood, so I apologized profusely.
I immediately apologized to the office manager, but did so without mentioning the scolding. She was quite baffled, and asked me if the cleaners had talked to me. She then explained, unprompted, that she had asked them to be more thorough. I tactfully dodged the question and thanked her for making the office feel so homey. I was kind of hoping that would be the end of it. However, just tonight I was here late again and the son demanded I write my name on a post it note. I did so unthinkingly.
After the fact, I realize I A) Shouldn't have meekly accepted being scolded when I wasn't in the wrong, B) I should have told the office manager about the bizarre incident in a direct way, and C) I DEFINITELY should not have written my name on a post it note simply because someone was asking for it(at the very least I should have demanded to know why). I also realize the reason I didn't stand up for myself is because this man and his family, whether or not they have been doing a good job, are probably in danger of losing their jobs, and I felt 'privilege guilt.'
However, I have no idea what I should have done. How could I have said 'no,' in this specific situation? How could I have asserted myself, without being a jerk?
I'm embarrassed to be asking this question. My life is far from perfect, but I have also been extremely fortunate and I realize it. I think I have guilt about my blessings, and often self sabotage. Frequently, I have given until I'm nearly in need of help myself, simply because I can't say no when others ask something of me. I haven't always been so lucky, mostly because of the self sabotage thing, so its a miracle in some ways I'm still in one piece mentally and physically. Still, though I've made tons of progress in many areas of my life, I still can't seem to say 'no.' Well, that is not entirely true, I DO have trouble saying no, even to myself, but I find it nearly impossible to say no to someone who has less than I do.
As a specific example, I like to stay late at work because its quiet, and I live within walking distance. The office manager knows I do this. I often do a little work, and then kick back with some tv. I'm not hurting anyone. I'm usually here late enough that I stay past the cleaning staff. Actually, I think its a mother and son team, and they almost always have two younger girls with them.
I haven't thought anything of it, but the other day I was grabbing a snack for myself in the kitchen when the son came up to me and, in quite an accusatory and confrontational tone, said something like "I don't know what you are doing here so late, but could you tell the office manager. We have been getting complaints from her about crumbs, and garbage in the trash cans." I admit I am probably not the tidiest person in the world, and I felt really bad that my mess might cost this person's family their livelihood, so I apologized profusely.
I immediately apologized to the office manager, but did so without mentioning the scolding. She was quite baffled, and asked me if the cleaners had talked to me. She then explained, unprompted, that she had asked them to be more thorough. I tactfully dodged the question and thanked her for making the office feel so homey. I was kind of hoping that would be the end of it. However, just tonight I was here late again and the son demanded I write my name on a post it note. I did so unthinkingly.
After the fact, I realize I A) Shouldn't have meekly accepted being scolded when I wasn't in the wrong, B) I should have told the office manager about the bizarre incident in a direct way, and C) I DEFINITELY should not have written my name on a post it note simply because someone was asking for it(at the very least I should have demanded to know why). I also realize the reason I didn't stand up for myself is because this man and his family, whether or not they have been doing a good job, are probably in danger of losing their jobs, and I felt 'privilege guilt.'
However, I have no idea what I should have done. How could I have said 'no,' in this specific situation? How could I have asserted myself, without being a jerk?
I think they're getting in trouble somewhere because when people come in the next morning, the garbage cans aren't full and the kitchen is dirty. Maybe try to figure out how not to cause a mess after the cleaning staff has gone -- don't eat once they leave, or clean up properly and take the trash out with you.
I assume they don't know who you are so they want to tell the office manager that this person right here is the one making a mess after they leave, and they cannot be responsible for waiting for you to leave.
posted by jeather at 2:12 PM on October 26, 2014 [13 favorites]
I assume they don't know who you are so they want to tell the office manager that this person right here is the one making a mess after they leave, and they cannot be responsible for waiting for you to leave.
posted by jeather at 2:12 PM on October 26, 2014 [13 favorites]
I immediately apologized to the office manager, but did so without mentioning the scolding. She was quite baffled, and asked me if the cleaners had talked to me. She then explained, unprompted, that she had asked them to be more thorough. I tactfully dodged the question and thanked her for making the office feel so homey.
Why on earth did you dodge the question if your goal is to make life easier for the cleaners? You're not getting them in trouble by mentioning something they clearly want her to know about.
posted by chaiminda at 2:20 PM on October 26, 2014 [5 favorites]
Why on earth did you dodge the question if your goal is to make life easier for the cleaners? You're not getting them in trouble by mentioning something they clearly want her to know about.
posted by chaiminda at 2:20 PM on October 26, 2014 [5 favorites]
I think the best thing you can do going forward is either watch TV at home in the evenings, or stay in one small area, toss all of your trash into a garbage can you take out at night when you're finished, and otherwise clean up after yourself. You can't live at your office, and the cleaning team can't do their job when you do. They might have been brusque, but they weren't wrong.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 2:23 PM on October 26, 2014 [27 favorites]
posted by Snarl Furillo at 2:23 PM on October 26, 2014 [27 favorites]
He wants your name because the next time they are told off for not cleaning properly, he can prove that someone was there late making a mess and who that person was.
He's doing this because they really want to keep that job and you being in the office isn't helping them.
It would probably be best for everyone if you changed your working habits. By that i mean you go home, escape from work, watch TV there and let them do their job without fear of you getting them fired.
posted by mr_silver at 2:31 PM on October 26, 2014 [15 favorites]
He's doing this because they really want to keep that job and you being in the office isn't helping them.
It would probably be best for everyone if you changed your working habits. By that i mean you go home, escape from work, watch TV there and let them do their job without fear of you getting them fired.
posted by mr_silver at 2:31 PM on October 26, 2014 [15 favorites]
Your question above the fold is a weird one given the specifics of the story you're telling here. In the nicest way possible, I think you're missing the point in a big way. This person is getting in trouble because you're making a mess after they clean the office, end of story. If you wanted to stand up for yourself you could have asked why he wanted your name, and I suspect he would have explained his reasoning, and then you wouldn't have had to ask this question.
If there is a takeaway here I think you could maybe work on your communication skills and your awareness of how your actions affect others, but again that isn't really related to learning to say no to people who are underprivileged.
posted by something something at 2:40 PM on October 26, 2014 [42 favorites]
If there is a takeaway here I think you could maybe work on your communication skills and your awareness of how your actions affect others, but again that isn't really related to learning to say no to people who are underprivileged.
posted by something something at 2:40 PM on October 26, 2014 [42 favorites]
Consider the possibility that even if you weren't coming in at night occasionally, there would still be the same complaints that the cleaning isn't adequate. You seem to assume that because that little boy thinks the cause of their admonishments is you, then it must be. The way to test this is to stay home for a couple of weeks but continue to ask the manager about the complaints. If they persist then you're scott-free. Either the cleaning staff aren't up to snuff, or the morning employees doing the complaining have unrealistic views of how perfect the place is supposed to look when they arrive.
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 2:46 PM on October 26, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by Harvey Kilobit at 2:46 PM on October 26, 2014 [5 favorites]
Your responsive actions, such as writing your name on the post-it note, were entirely appropriate, for the reasons others have outlined.
But the incident still left you feeling upset in ways which are maybe counterproductive. To minimize such distress in the future, I'd suggest that you practice curbing the urge to "apologize profusely", which isn't necessarily healthy. Let yourself gather information from others (as you did in listening to the cleaner, and in asking this question) without beating yourself up. Instead, focus on altering your conduct where appropriate -- in this case, by leaving before the cleaners are scheduled to arrive. That way you'll solidify, not undermine, your sense of autonomy and self-respect.
posted by feral_goldfish at 2:58 PM on October 26, 2014
But the incident still left you feeling upset in ways which are maybe counterproductive. To minimize such distress in the future, I'd suggest that you practice curbing the urge to "apologize profusely", which isn't necessarily healthy. Let yourself gather information from others (as you did in listening to the cleaner, and in asking this question) without beating yourself up. Instead, focus on altering your conduct where appropriate -- in this case, by leaving before the cleaners are scheduled to arrive. That way you'll solidify, not undermine, your sense of autonomy and self-respect.
posted by feral_goldfish at 2:58 PM on October 26, 2014
It is odd that you feel you can use the workspace - which is also the workspace of others, like the cleaning staff - the way you'd use your private living room - while other people are trying to do their job there. I think your manager was quite baffled because you've been staying there in this fashion, not because of the cleaning staff.
Regarding your points A, B, and C
"A) Shouldn't have meekly accepted being scolded when I wasn't in the wrong"
Well, is your manager aware of the full extent of your activities at your office after work and signed off on that? It's okay to stay late if you have to work, but not necessarily if you just want to lounge around there on a regular basis. Other people are not staying there after work to watch TV, maybe you were in the wrong, huh?
"B) I should have told the office manager about the bizarre incident in a direct way"
Yes, direct communication is best. But the incident was not bizarre. What is bizarre to me though, is that you apparently consider the cleaning staff less worthy of a decent workplace than yourself.
"C) I DEFINITELY should not have written my name on a post it note simply because someone was asking for it (at the very least I should have demanded to know why)".
No, I disagree. It's not a huge leap to figure out that they need your name to prove you've been in this space and are the cause of crumbs/garbage. They are not going to do anything nefarious with that post-it.
"However, I have no idea what I should have done. How could I have said 'no,' in this specific situation? How could I have asserted myself, without being a jerk?"
Looking at it from their perspective, you are being a jerk for making their job harder, possibly even endangering their employment at your office. There is no reason to "stand up for yourself" or say "no" - those people did nothing wrong and did not demand anything unreasonable from you. They were simply trying to do a good job and to protect themselves against further accusations.
posted by travelwithcats at 3:14 PM on October 26, 2014 [5 favorites]
Regarding your points A, B, and C
"A) Shouldn't have meekly accepted being scolded when I wasn't in the wrong"
Well, is your manager aware of the full extent of your activities at your office after work and signed off on that? It's okay to stay late if you have to work, but not necessarily if you just want to lounge around there on a regular basis. Other people are not staying there after work to watch TV, maybe you were in the wrong, huh?
"B) I should have told the office manager about the bizarre incident in a direct way"
Yes, direct communication is best. But the incident was not bizarre. What is bizarre to me though, is that you apparently consider the cleaning staff less worthy of a decent workplace than yourself.
"C) I DEFINITELY should not have written my name on a post it note simply because someone was asking for it (at the very least I should have demanded to know why)".
No, I disagree. It's not a huge leap to figure out that they need your name to prove you've been in this space and are the cause of crumbs/garbage. They are not going to do anything nefarious with that post-it.
"However, I have no idea what I should have done. How could I have said 'no,' in this specific situation? How could I have asserted myself, without being a jerk?"
Looking at it from their perspective, you are being a jerk for making their job harder, possibly even endangering their employment at your office. There is no reason to "stand up for yourself" or say "no" - those people did nothing wrong and did not demand anything unreasonable from you. They were simply trying to do a good job and to protect themselves against further accusations.
posted by travelwithcats at 3:14 PM on October 26, 2014 [5 favorites]
Aren't you in the wrong, though? You've been leaving tiny messes that the cleaners have, over time, been blamed for. It's not a big mistake which you should feel very guilty for, but it is most likely your actions that have caused the problem to develop.
You sound simultaneously guilty and self-righteous about being called out for the unintentional consequences of your actions. I think you recognize that the guilt you feel is greater than the situation deserves, and feel resentful for having felt so guilty for what was a minor misstep. It sounds like you are blaming the over-the-top level of guilt you feel on the way you were called out, and now your self-righteousness has prevented you from accepting fault for the reason you were called out in the first place. You've gone from feeling very very guilty for a small misstep, to realizing your guilt is an overreaction, to defensively pushing away responsibility for both the mistake and the guilt. Work on recognizing the emotional overreaction when you feel flooded by guilt and don't blame yourself for feeling that way. When you realize your guilt is an overreaction and try to scale it back like you have, don't let it fester into resentment and defensiveness against the person who triggered the flood of guilt by calling you out. It's not your fault that you tend to become overwhelmed with guilt. And it's not their fault.
Perhaps it will help to consider that neither the cleaners nor the office manager care about your guilt or even want you to feel guilty. They are both frustrated with the misunderstanding between them that your actions have caused. The officer manager apparently doesn't realize how late you are staying---until after the cleaners leave even---and has blamed the traces you leave behind on the cleaners. The cleaners know that it's not their fault and want you to own up to occasionally leaving behind crumbs or wrappers in the trash so that they will stop being chastised for your messes. The way you should have asserted yourself is by clearing up the misunderstanding and owning your role as the accidental crumb-leaver to the office manager.
posted by wrabbit at 3:30 PM on October 26, 2014 [17 favorites]
You sound simultaneously guilty and self-righteous about being called out for the unintentional consequences of your actions. I think you recognize that the guilt you feel is greater than the situation deserves, and feel resentful for having felt so guilty for what was a minor misstep. It sounds like you are blaming the over-the-top level of guilt you feel on the way you were called out, and now your self-righteousness has prevented you from accepting fault for the reason you were called out in the first place. You've gone from feeling very very guilty for a small misstep, to realizing your guilt is an overreaction, to defensively pushing away responsibility for both the mistake and the guilt. Work on recognizing the emotional overreaction when you feel flooded by guilt and don't blame yourself for feeling that way. When you realize your guilt is an overreaction and try to scale it back like you have, don't let it fester into resentment and defensiveness against the person who triggered the flood of guilt by calling you out. It's not your fault that you tend to become overwhelmed with guilt. And it's not their fault.
Perhaps it will help to consider that neither the cleaners nor the office manager care about your guilt or even want you to feel guilty. They are both frustrated with the misunderstanding between them that your actions have caused. The officer manager apparently doesn't realize how late you are staying---until after the cleaners leave even---and has blamed the traces you leave behind on the cleaners. The cleaners know that it's not their fault and want you to own up to occasionally leaving behind crumbs or wrappers in the trash so that they will stop being chastised for your messes. The way you should have asserted yourself is by clearing up the misunderstanding and owning your role as the accidental crumb-leaver to the office manager.
posted by wrabbit at 3:30 PM on October 26, 2014 [17 favorites]
Wow, tough crowd.
Frankly Anon, I think that people are being a little hard on you here. In many places, staying late at the office is perfectly acceptable. So long as your office allows it, staying late isn't a cardinal sin. Hell, putting trash in the trash can after hours isn't a sin either, presuming that you let your office manager know the situation so that the cleaning staff are no longer blamed for poor performance.
Regarding the post-it, I would have probably chided myself over that as well. The person didn't mention what your name was going to be used for, and I personally am usually very sceptical of people who ask for my signature or name without providing an explanation. I think that it's perfectly reasonable to ask for a reason before providing personal written information to anybody, yes, even the cleaning staff.
Having said that, this whole kerfuffle may not be that big of a deal. My vote is for the "he wants to let his boss know who put trash in the can after hours" explanation.
posted by Shouraku at 3:42 PM on October 26, 2014 [5 favorites]
Frankly Anon, I think that people are being a little hard on you here. In many places, staying late at the office is perfectly acceptable. So long as your office allows it, staying late isn't a cardinal sin. Hell, putting trash in the trash can after hours isn't a sin either, presuming that you let your office manager know the situation so that the cleaning staff are no longer blamed for poor performance.
Regarding the post-it, I would have probably chided myself over that as well. The person didn't mention what your name was going to be used for, and I personally am usually very sceptical of people who ask for my signature or name without providing an explanation. I think that it's perfectly reasonable to ask for a reason before providing personal written information to anybody, yes, even the cleaning staff.
Having said that, this whole kerfuffle may not be that big of a deal. My vote is for the "he wants to let his boss know who put trash in the can after hours" explanation.
posted by Shouraku at 3:42 PM on October 26, 2014 [5 favorites]
It is odd that you feel you can use the workspace - which is also the workspace of others, like the cleaning staff - the way you'd use your private living room - while other people are trying to do their job there.
What? No. A) It's quite normal for people to use their office like this, and the office manager knows and doesn't mind and B) this is being done at night when no one else is "trying to do their job there."
It sounds like you're in the middle of a weird miscommunication or argument. It's not uncommon for people to work late enough that they are there when the cleaners arrive. Not even a little uncommon.
Either the cleaners are doing a bad job unrelated to you, the office manager is being a jerk to them, or both. "Name on a post-it please" is an odd request, and feel free to not agree to things like that in the future. But in general I'd just try to steer clear of the disagreement between the other two parties.
As far as "How to say no," a good way to start would have been asking them why they want you to do that. If it sounds unreasonable, say "I don't want to do that" and maybe offer an alternative solution (though you're under no obligation to do so)
posted by drjimmy11 at 3:45 PM on October 26, 2014 [2 favorites]
What? No. A) It's quite normal for people to use their office like this, and the office manager knows and doesn't mind and B) this is being done at night when no one else is "trying to do their job there."
It sounds like you're in the middle of a weird miscommunication or argument. It's not uncommon for people to work late enough that they are there when the cleaners arrive. Not even a little uncommon.
Either the cleaners are doing a bad job unrelated to you, the office manager is being a jerk to them, or both. "Name on a post-it please" is an odd request, and feel free to not agree to things like that in the future. But in general I'd just try to steer clear of the disagreement between the other two parties.
As far as "How to say no," a good way to start would have been asking them why they want you to do that. If it sounds unreasonable, say "I don't want to do that" and maybe offer an alternative solution (though you're under no obligation to do so)
posted by drjimmy11 at 3:45 PM on October 26, 2014 [2 favorites]
...I'm not hurting anyone...
...I am probably not the tidiest person in the world...
...my mess might cost this person's family their livelihood...
...Shouldn't have meekly accepted being scolded when I wasn't in the wrong...
Wait what? This stuff is all over the map. Did you make a mess or not? Was there a reason to say sorry or not? You were apparently hurting someone, right? Perhaps you could accept getting criticised for a reason. (I would have asked what the name on the post it note was about, there I do agree)
Forget "privilege guilt". Try to analyse whatever happens around you in a neutral light, and try make all the parts of the story in question match. I promise, it will get really easy to say, if necessary, "no" when you know why you need to say "no".
posted by Namlit at 3:52 PM on October 26, 2014 [5 favorites]
...I am probably not the tidiest person in the world...
...my mess might cost this person's family their livelihood...
...Shouldn't have meekly accepted being scolded when I wasn't in the wrong...
Wait what? This stuff is all over the map. Did you make a mess or not? Was there a reason to say sorry or not? You were apparently hurting someone, right? Perhaps you could accept getting criticised for a reason. (I would have asked what the name on the post it note was about, there I do agree)
Forget "privilege guilt". Try to analyse whatever happens around you in a neutral light, and try make all the parts of the story in question match. I promise, it will get really easy to say, if necessary, "no" when you know why you need to say "no".
posted by Namlit at 3:52 PM on October 26, 2014 [5 favorites]
What? No. A) It's quite normal for people to use their office like this, and the office manager knows and doesn't mind and B) this is being done at night when no one else is "trying to do their job there."
I think that if the OP is the only person in the office to stay this late, and is regularly alone in the office until the cleaners arrive, then staying super late at the office isn't part of this particular company's culture. So...it may not be a huge problem that the office manager is going to give the OP a hard time about, but I wouldn't call it "normal."
I believe that "trying to do their job there" is referring to the cleaners, who are trying to do the job of cleaning the office.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 3:54 PM on October 26, 2014 [12 favorites]
I think that if the OP is the only person in the office to stay this late, and is regularly alone in the office until the cleaners arrive, then staying super late at the office isn't part of this particular company's culture. So...it may not be a huge problem that the office manager is going to give the OP a hard time about, but I wouldn't call it "normal."
I believe that "trying to do their job there" is referring to the cleaners, who are trying to do the job of cleaning the office.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 3:54 PM on October 26, 2014 [12 favorites]
"What? No. A) It's quite normal for people to use their office like this, and the office manager knows and doesn't mind and B) this is being done at night when no one else is "trying to do their job there.""
To be fair: We don't know if the office manager knows and doesn't mind & the cleaners ARE trying to do their job there. Their working conditions should get consideration as well.
And I missed one paragraph in my first post: The alternative to writing down your name would be to take this matter up with your office manager telling her the extend of the situation and saying so to the person asking for your name. "Listen, I won't write my name down right now, but I will talk to $manager tomorrow and make sure she knows you are not to blame for $mymess."
posted by travelwithcats at 4:06 PM on October 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
To be fair: We don't know if the office manager knows and doesn't mind & the cleaners ARE trying to do their job there. Their working conditions should get consideration as well.
And I missed one paragraph in my first post: The alternative to writing down your name would be to take this matter up with your office manager telling her the extend of the situation and saying so to the person asking for your name. "Listen, I won't write my name down right now, but I will talk to $manager tomorrow and make sure she knows you are not to blame for $mymess."
posted by travelwithcats at 4:06 PM on October 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
I would probably just go home, and make my mess there. Your office manager knows you stay late but isn't connecting the dots-- probably because there is no real work reason for them to assume anyone is there late making a mess. Maybe they don't know the extent to which you veg there (and wouldn't care except for this mess issue which is creating some kind of dissonance).
I would speak candidly with your manager about the mess situation and find out if you are really the one creating the problem (it should be fairly obvious from the kinds of issues they're noticing). If it's not you (for instance, they think windows aren't being cleaned often enough... ) then I would just stand up for yourself when cleaning people confront you, if you really must be there. Seems like a small hill to die on, though.
posted by stoneandstar at 4:10 PM on October 26, 2014
I would speak candidly with your manager about the mess situation and find out if you are really the one creating the problem (it should be fairly obvious from the kinds of issues they're noticing). If it's not you (for instance, they think windows aren't being cleaned often enough... ) then I would just stand up for yourself when cleaning people confront you, if you really must be there. Seems like a small hill to die on, though.
posted by stoneandstar at 4:10 PM on October 26, 2014
When I was in high school, I worked as a cleaner in an office on weekends. Normally, no one worked in those offices on the weekend, but occasionally people did. And because the office was in the middle of a mill yard those people would track mud all over floors I had just washed, leaving me with the choice of washing the damned floors again or leaving them dirty, and then getting in trouble for not cleaning properly.
I'd reclean the floors, but it used to make me super cranky.
If those people had been watching TV or relaxing or whatever, rather than actually working, I would have been completely flipping livid.
Please go talk to your boss, tell them straight up that you're staying late in the office and that sometimes you make a mess again after the cleaners finish cleaning things and that it isn't their fault. Do not make it an issue that they've confronted you about this, because of course they've confronted you about this. You're risking their livelihood so you don't have to go home at night.
posted by jacquilynne at 4:12 PM on October 26, 2014 [34 favorites]
I'd reclean the floors, but it used to make me super cranky.
If those people had been watching TV or relaxing or whatever, rather than actually working, I would have been completely flipping livid.
Please go talk to your boss, tell them straight up that you're staying late in the office and that sometimes you make a mess again after the cleaners finish cleaning things and that it isn't their fault. Do not make it an issue that they've confronted you about this, because of course they've confronted you about this. You're risking their livelihood so you don't have to go home at night.
posted by jacquilynne at 4:12 PM on October 26, 2014 [34 favorites]
I think the red herring here is the cleaning staff. Just stay out of office drama, no matter who it is. I think the question to ask is WHY aren't you leaving on time? Is it your workload? Office distractions?
I ask because I too, have mega trouble saying no at work and find myself getting to the office by 8am but then leaving at 7pm. I ask because for me, it's really starting to take a noticeable toll on life outside of work. I'm now taking on the daunting task of reclaiming it all which is really hard.
posted by floweredfish at 4:16 PM on October 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
I ask because I too, have mega trouble saying no at work and find myself getting to the office by 8am but then leaving at 7pm. I ask because for me, it's really starting to take a noticeable toll on life outside of work. I'm now taking on the daunting task of reclaiming it all which is really hard.
posted by floweredfish at 4:16 PM on October 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
Your original premise doesn't seem to apply the example you gave.
I often do a little work, and then kick back with some tv. I'm not hurting anyone.
You're hurting the cleaning staff by staying past them. Hell, by leaving these small messes, you're hurting your coworkers by making their work environment a little worse when they come in the next day.
She was quite baffled, and asked me if the cleaners had talked to me. She then explained, unprompted, that she had asked them to be more thorough.
She was most likely baffled that you were making the office more than the place where you work.
After the fact, I realize I A) Shouldn't have meekly accepted being scolded when I wasn't in the wrong
You were in the wrong, at least in the eyes of the cleaning staff and your office manager. You might see it differently, but they're putting in effort to treat the office environment as something different than the homey place you're seeing it as.
posted by RainyJay at 5:13 PM on October 26, 2014 [3 favorites]
I often do a little work, and then kick back with some tv. I'm not hurting anyone.
You're hurting the cleaning staff by staying past them. Hell, by leaving these small messes, you're hurting your coworkers by making their work environment a little worse when they come in the next day.
She was quite baffled, and asked me if the cleaners had talked to me. She then explained, unprompted, that she had asked them to be more thorough.
She was most likely baffled that you were making the office more than the place where you work.
After the fact, I realize I A) Shouldn't have meekly accepted being scolded when I wasn't in the wrong
You were in the wrong, at least in the eyes of the cleaning staff and your office manager. You might see it differently, but they're putting in effort to treat the office environment as something different than the homey place you're seeing it as.
posted by RainyJay at 5:13 PM on October 26, 2014 [3 favorites]
Office Cleaning is done by contracts, so if there's evidence of some uncleaned stuff in the morning, then building management will use these reports to knuckle down the price on the contract re-negotiations, cutting into the Cleaning Staff's profits. So it's a big deal to them.
posted by ovvl at 5:16 PM on October 26, 2014 [8 favorites]
posted by ovvl at 5:16 PM on October 26, 2014 [8 favorites]
Taking a step back from this particular story and using it more as an example... Some thoughts on how to stand up for yourself:
1. Slow Down and Tune Into Yourself - Start practicing to notice unusual situations and how you're feeling in those situations. If I'm in an out-of-ordinary situation, sometimes I just go on auto-pilot and then only after am I like, "Why the heck did I do that?" Purposely slow down, take a breath before taking any action - like writing your name down on a piece of paper.
2. Ask Questions - If someone comes to you with an unusual request ("Write your name on this piece of paper"), instead of doing it right away, ask that question "Why do you need that?" Sometimes it's hard to remember to do it in the moment, so sometimes I retrain myself by OVER-asking questions in neutral situations. Like at the DMV or the bank or the doctor or something. Just be neutral or mildly curious like "Oh, interesting, and what do you do with this information?"
3. Be Honest - Be in touch with your feelings and communicate them. You feel awkward or guilty? Say that. When you first interacted with the cleaning crew, you can say, "Hey, I feel kinda awkward and guilty about this situation. I didn't mean for you guys to get in trouble for any mess I leave. Let's think of some ways we can solve this together. How about I tell my manager I've been staying late after you leave." Again, you can practice doing this in more neutral situations. Like, you go to the mechanic and you feel like they're not doing a great job and you're frustrated... "You know, I've been feeling frustrated with this situation and here's why... let's think of some ways to fix this."
4. Be Kind to Others and Yourself - Standing up for yourself doesn't always mean strong-arming the situation. It's possible to both have your own best interests in mind - and also be kind to other people. You can accomplish that by being honest, gentle but firm, upfront, and communicative.
5. Learn from Mistakes - Instead of thinking of this situation as a failing on your part, think of it as a way for you to analyze a test situation and learn from it. Yeah, you didn't communicate as thoroughly as you could have, but you can learn from it to notice similar feelings in the future and take different actions. There have been situations in my past where I was like, "Oh jeez, I totally didn't stand up for myself" and then in a subsequent situation, I OVERcorrected, like, "Man, I sure stood up for myself but I could have been a bit kinder to that other person" and then the next time it's closer to the sweet spot. Be gentle with yourself in all those different types of situations and think of them as helpful social experiments.
posted by Uncle Glendinning at 5:17 PM on October 26, 2014 [7 favorites]
1. Slow Down and Tune Into Yourself - Start practicing to notice unusual situations and how you're feeling in those situations. If I'm in an out-of-ordinary situation, sometimes I just go on auto-pilot and then only after am I like, "Why the heck did I do that?" Purposely slow down, take a breath before taking any action - like writing your name down on a piece of paper.
2. Ask Questions - If someone comes to you with an unusual request ("Write your name on this piece of paper"), instead of doing it right away, ask that question "Why do you need that?" Sometimes it's hard to remember to do it in the moment, so sometimes I retrain myself by OVER-asking questions in neutral situations. Like at the DMV or the bank or the doctor or something. Just be neutral or mildly curious like "Oh, interesting, and what do you do with this information?"
3. Be Honest - Be in touch with your feelings and communicate them. You feel awkward or guilty? Say that. When you first interacted with the cleaning crew, you can say, "Hey, I feel kinda awkward and guilty about this situation. I didn't mean for you guys to get in trouble for any mess I leave. Let's think of some ways we can solve this together. How about I tell my manager I've been staying late after you leave." Again, you can practice doing this in more neutral situations. Like, you go to the mechanic and you feel like they're not doing a great job and you're frustrated... "You know, I've been feeling frustrated with this situation and here's why... let's think of some ways to fix this."
4. Be Kind to Others and Yourself - Standing up for yourself doesn't always mean strong-arming the situation. It's possible to both have your own best interests in mind - and also be kind to other people. You can accomplish that by being honest, gentle but firm, upfront, and communicative.
5. Learn from Mistakes - Instead of thinking of this situation as a failing on your part, think of it as a way for you to analyze a test situation and learn from it. Yeah, you didn't communicate as thoroughly as you could have, but you can learn from it to notice similar feelings in the future and take different actions. There have been situations in my past where I was like, "Oh jeez, I totally didn't stand up for myself" and then in a subsequent situation, I OVERcorrected, like, "Man, I sure stood up for myself but I could have been a bit kinder to that other person" and then the next time it's closer to the sweet spot. Be gentle with yourself in all those different types of situations and think of them as helpful social experiments.
posted by Uncle Glendinning at 5:17 PM on October 26, 2014 [7 favorites]
One of my parents used the office this way, and focused on befriending the cleaners so they wouldn't be seen as interfering with their work. As such, I was really surprised that your story took the direction it did, rather than being about the family having some sort of outside need that you could potentially help with. When my siblings and/or I were with my parent after hours, it was absolutely understood that we were responsible for staying out of the way and cleaning up after ourselves completely, which included makig sure that trash either went into the central collecting bin that the cleaners were going to dump anyway, or home with us if it was too late for that. When my parent had their own cubicle/office, it was also acceptable to leave trash in that bin, provided it wasn't gross. We even tidied things we hadn't used, if it seemed like the cleaners had skipped them because of us; leaving messes in the kitchen that someone else was likely to be blamed for would have been anathema. I think if you're more proactive about making sure you're already doing your best in a given situation, it will be easier to be confident if someone asks for yet more out of you.
posted by teremala at 6:28 PM on October 26, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by teremala at 6:28 PM on October 26, 2014 [7 favorites]
I really disagree with the comments suggesting you shouldn't be at work late. You're not out of line being at the office. Just tell the office manager that they're doing a good job (if you see they are) and that you like to work late, so there is sometimes garbage in the cans. Maybe s/he will have some particular tidiness request perhaps, but you shouldn't have terribly different restrictions on you at 8pm than you would at 8am. I also don't think it's a big deal at all or warrants any worry that you gave your name to the cleaners.
Last, I'm having trouble seeing anything in the situation that has to do with issues of societal advantage, or generosity or any lack of it. Some of the way you contextualized it seems pretty exaggerated in it's degree of "meaning" to me. This sounds like a pretty practical interaction between you, the cleaners and the office manager.
posted by spbmp at 8:50 PM on October 26, 2014 [2 favorites]
Last, I'm having trouble seeing anything in the situation that has to do with issues of societal advantage, or generosity or any lack of it. Some of the way you contextualized it seems pretty exaggerated in it's degree of "meaning" to me. This sounds like a pretty practical interaction between you, the cleaners and the office manager.
posted by spbmp at 8:50 PM on October 26, 2014 [2 favorites]
Stay late at work but don't make a mess, or clean up after yourself. If you must eat, go home. Or at least go out and eat food and then come back to watch TV.
posted by quincunx at 9:35 PM on October 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by quincunx at 9:35 PM on October 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
Like some others here, I actually think you ARE in the wrong to a degree. These people are paid to keep your office clean, which they do, but then you re-mess it after they are done which makes it look like they didn't do their job, or that they did it poorly. Comparison point: Lets say you work in retail and your job is to mind the cash register. Someone else is in charge of keeping the tshirts properly folded. The t-shirt folding person works hard to make sure all the tshirts are folded correctly but then you routinely unfold half a dozen because on your break you like to peruse the merchandise. The manager never sees the tshirt table looking tidy and all folded. The tshirt folder would have every right to get angry with you because your choice to take your break in that way makes it look like they aren't doing their job well.
Seriously, I think they were completely in the right for confronting you over it.
Look, I'm not a super tidy person either. Believe you me, left to my own devices I am pretty damned messy. So I get it. I do. But you need to make a point of cleaning up after yourself in the times when you stay late. It is fine for you to work late, but not at the expense of the cleaners' reputation and perceived quality of their work. Your choice to work late and watch TV in your office is fine and dandy, but understand your choice is preventing others from doing THEIR job. And none of this has to do with "privilege guilt". This seems more related to your being a little (albeit unintentionally) thoughtless and inconsiderate.
Out of consideration for the cleaning staff I think that for the times when you choose to work late and watch TV at your office you need to make a point of cleaning up after yourself.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 6:10 AM on October 27, 2014 [6 favorites]
Seriously, I think they were completely in the right for confronting you over it.
Look, I'm not a super tidy person either. Believe you me, left to my own devices I am pretty damned messy. So I get it. I do. But you need to make a point of cleaning up after yourself in the times when you stay late. It is fine for you to work late, but not at the expense of the cleaners' reputation and perceived quality of their work. Your choice to work late and watch TV in your office is fine and dandy, but understand your choice is preventing others from doing THEIR job. And none of this has to do with "privilege guilt". This seems more related to your being a little (albeit unintentionally) thoughtless and inconsiderate.
Out of consideration for the cleaning staff I think that for the times when you choose to work late and watch TV at your office you need to make a point of cleaning up after yourself.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 6:10 AM on October 27, 2014 [6 favorites]
Seconding others who have pointed out that your premise didn't match your example. This has nooooothing to do with paying it forward and a lot to do with not understanding how your actions affect others. Be tidier at work or hang out in your own house. It's not even hard or a big deal and it's pretty weird that it got to this point.
posted by masquesoporfavor at 8:05 AM on October 27, 2014 [8 favorites]
posted by masquesoporfavor at 8:05 AM on October 27, 2014 [8 favorites]
I honestly find this question really confusing because the premise (pay it forward?) has nothing to do with the actual details of the question. This seems like a really straightforward situation ... you are staying late and messing up various stuff at the office after the cleaning crew leaves, and they're getting in trouble for it. Perhaps the cleaning guy could have addressed it in a more polite manner, but honestly it just sounds like he's pissed that this random person is getting them in trouble. I would stop trying to think of this as some grand story of priviledge-underpriviledged or you doing someone a favor/needing to say no, and instead just take responsibility for your actions. Go to your office manager and say -- "Hey, sorry for all the confusion around this, in fact I have been staying late after the cleaning crew has left and have been leaving more of a mess than I realized. Definitely don't want them to get in trouble for my mess or have them need to stay any later than they need to. I will do my best to clean up better, but if it continues to be an issue please come talk to me and I'll make sure I'm out of here before they leave in the future."
posted by rainbowbrite at 8:47 AM on October 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by rainbowbrite at 8:47 AM on October 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
I find it difficult to answer your general question because in your specific example, I think you're in the wrong (and I can see I'm not alone in that.) Your guilt and confusion may be telling you you're not quite right here.
The cleaners' job is to clean the office completely. So they will get in trouble if they leave behind crumbs and garbage when they go. It's clear they're trying to prove that they are not doing incomplete work due to incompetence, but because someone is making it impossible for them to complete their work. That someone is you.
Let's be real. You are not staying late because your boss has assigned you after-hours work. You are staying late to use the office as an extension of your home. For your own personal use, you are taking advantage of resources (electricity, professional cleaning) and equipment (computer, TV, kitchen devices) that are intended for professional use.
In my office, they would let that slide maybe twice a year. If it were a regular thing, which seems to be the case for you, that would be a problem. (I realize this may sound silly, but there may be payroll and legal issues with respect to overtime since you are working some, as well as liability issues-- what if you were injured on work premises after work hours?) Now, you say you have cleared this with your office manager. Frankly, though, I'm not convinced it's an office manager's place to greenlight frequent personal use of an office. I doubt your employer, their HR rep/legal counsel, or the building leaseholder would actually be happy about this if they knew the full extent.
But even if all parties up the chain were 100% on board, you've now been made aware that it's making life uncool for some of your fellow humans. It's totally understandable to me why the cleaners, possibly facing false accusation or even fighting for their job, wanted your name--especially as you admit to making food mess!
There is something off-putting about how you're framing this as, what, a class guilt issue? Like you look at the office cleaners and cast them as "the less fortunate" rather than simply "people with jobs to do." You seem to be saying that your guilt is making you overly compassionate to your own detriment, whereas to me it looks like a little more compassion would go a long way in helping you see who is really being harmed in this instance.
I don't think you should feel guilty because the cleaners are "less fortunate" than you; if you must feel bad, feel bad because you're maybe directly endangering someone's job security for no good reason. Better yet, don't feel bad at all! No biggie! Take heart, we're all inadvertently the jerk from time to time. Just knock it off, and watch TV and snack at home like your coworkers do, where you're not possibly getting someone into trouble.
Learning to develop boundaries and assert them kindly is, it seems to me, an entirely separate problem from the one your example raised, one covered on this forum and elsewhere extensively, and well worth researching. Good luck; most of us struggle with that regardless of our social status.
posted by kapers at 9:37 AM on October 27, 2014 [11 favorites]
The cleaners' job is to clean the office completely. So they will get in trouble if they leave behind crumbs and garbage when they go. It's clear they're trying to prove that they are not doing incomplete work due to incompetence, but because someone is making it impossible for them to complete their work. That someone is you.
Let's be real. You are not staying late because your boss has assigned you after-hours work. You are staying late to use the office as an extension of your home. For your own personal use, you are taking advantage of resources (electricity, professional cleaning) and equipment (computer, TV, kitchen devices) that are intended for professional use.
In my office, they would let that slide maybe twice a year. If it were a regular thing, which seems to be the case for you, that would be a problem. (I realize this may sound silly, but there may be payroll and legal issues with respect to overtime since you are working some, as well as liability issues-- what if you were injured on work premises after work hours?) Now, you say you have cleared this with your office manager. Frankly, though, I'm not convinced it's an office manager's place to greenlight frequent personal use of an office. I doubt your employer, their HR rep/legal counsel, or the building leaseholder would actually be happy about this if they knew the full extent.
But even if all parties up the chain were 100% on board, you've now been made aware that it's making life uncool for some of your fellow humans. It's totally understandable to me why the cleaners, possibly facing false accusation or even fighting for their job, wanted your name--especially as you admit to making food mess!
There is something off-putting about how you're framing this as, what, a class guilt issue? Like you look at the office cleaners and cast them as "the less fortunate" rather than simply "people with jobs to do." You seem to be saying that your guilt is making you overly compassionate to your own detriment, whereas to me it looks like a little more compassion would go a long way in helping you see who is really being harmed in this instance.
I don't think you should feel guilty because the cleaners are "less fortunate" than you; if you must feel bad, feel bad because you're maybe directly endangering someone's job security for no good reason. Better yet, don't feel bad at all! No biggie! Take heart, we're all inadvertently the jerk from time to time. Just knock it off, and watch TV and snack at home like your coworkers do, where you're not possibly getting someone into trouble.
Learning to develop boundaries and assert them kindly is, it seems to me, an entirely separate problem from the one your example raised, one covered on this forum and elsewhere extensively, and well worth researching. Good luck; most of us struggle with that regardless of our social status.
posted by kapers at 9:37 AM on October 27, 2014 [11 favorites]
I think we actually need to know some more answers and clarification to know whether you are in fact in the wrong.
1) When you make mess, do you make it in your cubicle? Do you leave trash in your cubicle's trash, or in the main trash?
2) What mess are you talking about leaving?
I would not automatically expect that any mess which is being left and they are getting chided about is your fault. Sometimes people just aren't doing a great job, and maybe they are looking at your presence as the irritating factor and thinking it's all your fault, when it actually is not.
What I suspect may actually be the case - especially as you say they almost always bring two young girls - is that they don't have babysitting for the young children, so bring them to work with them. Maybe normally, when no one is there, they park the little girls on a chair and have the girls watch TV to keep them out of trouble. But because you are there watching TV - which you are totally entitled to do if the office manager is cool with it they can't do that, and so the girls are not stuck to one place and may even be making messes or leaving crumbs themselves.
posted by corb at 10:43 AM on October 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
1) When you make mess, do you make it in your cubicle? Do you leave trash in your cubicle's trash, or in the main trash?
2) What mess are you talking about leaving?
I would not automatically expect that any mess which is being left and they are getting chided about is your fault. Sometimes people just aren't doing a great job, and maybe they are looking at your presence as the irritating factor and thinking it's all your fault, when it actually is not.
What I suspect may actually be the case - especially as you say they almost always bring two young girls - is that they don't have babysitting for the young children, so bring them to work with them. Maybe normally, when no one is there, they park the little girls on a chair and have the girls watch TV to keep them out of trouble. But because you are there watching TV - which you are totally entitled to do if the office manager is cool with it they can't do that, and so the girls are not stuck to one place and may even be making messes or leaving crumbs themselves.
posted by corb at 10:43 AM on October 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
Also, it is completely inappropriate for them to confront you about your mess, which is probably why the office manager asked you if that is what had happened. Completely unacceptable to ask you to write your name on a post-it. They could easily have referenced your particular desk. Honestly, if I were the office manager, I would not want them working there for that point alone. They are not supposed to be there fighting with the staff, they are supposed to be there to clean.
posted by corb at 10:45 AM on October 27, 2014
posted by corb at 10:45 AM on October 27, 2014
You were in a difficult conversation with someone who was agitated. It's hard to be assertive in that sort of situation. But there are some skills you can learn that can make it a lot easier. You've probably heard of books or workshops about "dealing with difficult people" and "assertiveness training." I was surprised to find out that these approaches have more to do with listening than talking. By listening, I mean asking questions, drawing the other person out, encouraging them to say more about what's bothering them. This makes them feel better (because you're not arguing and you actually seem interested) and also buys you time to come up with a constructive response.
The cleaning man sounds angry, and basically says, "You're wrong for being here, and you're leaving a mess. I want you to tell the office manager."
You: You seem angry.
Him: I am angry. We clean up and then you mess up the kitchen and leave it looking crappy. Then we get in trouble because of you. And you're here all the time and not even working.
You:(Repeating the relevant gist of what he said.) I see. You don't want the manager to think you didn't clean the place well.
Him: Right. We don't want to get blamed for your mess. I need your name on this post-it.
You: (Ignoring the post it.) My name is ________ and I will tell the office manager about our talk. I certainly don't want you to get in trouble, because you do a good job. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
By now the guy has calmed down. You haven't caved and you haven't gotten into an argument. In the same situation, I would apologize, or maybe say, "I can see why you're bothered by it.) I would consider being extra careful about food and untidiness, and perhaps wrap up any refuse and take it out of the building. The office manager clearly doesn't like the crumbs and whatnot, so you have two reasons to be super vigilant about leaving no snack evidence.
These skills take some practice, but they're not difficult. Do a web search for "active listening" or "listening skills." If you stay calm and let them talk, you can then state your point of view or just focus on what the person is mainly bothered about.
posted by wryly at 1:15 PM on October 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
The cleaning man sounds angry, and basically says, "You're wrong for being here, and you're leaving a mess. I want you to tell the office manager."
You: You seem angry.
Him: I am angry. We clean up and then you mess up the kitchen and leave it looking crappy. Then we get in trouble because of you. And you're here all the time and not even working.
You:(Repeating the relevant gist of what he said.) I see. You don't want the manager to think you didn't clean the place well.
Him: Right. We don't want to get blamed for your mess. I need your name on this post-it.
You: (Ignoring the post it.) My name is ________ and I will tell the office manager about our talk. I certainly don't want you to get in trouble, because you do a good job. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.
By now the guy has calmed down. You haven't caved and you haven't gotten into an argument. In the same situation, I would apologize, or maybe say, "I can see why you're bothered by it.) I would consider being extra careful about food and untidiness, and perhaps wrap up any refuse and take it out of the building. The office manager clearly doesn't like the crumbs and whatnot, so you have two reasons to be super vigilant about leaving no snack evidence.
These skills take some practice, but they're not difficult. Do a web search for "active listening" or "listening skills." If you stay calm and let them talk, you can then state your point of view or just focus on what the person is mainly bothered about.
posted by wryly at 1:15 PM on October 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
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And like, that doesn't make you a terrible person. Of course not! But like I said, I can understand why they're annoyed.
I have no idea why he would ask you to write your name on a note. Maybe they want to give it to your office manager, so that if she criticizes them again, they can say, "Talk to Anonymous, they were here late and they can explain to you that they put trash in the garbage can after we'd already finished cleaning." Maybe not! No idea.
I am not sure if the question to ask here is how you should have asserted yourself. The question might be, "Is my desire to be at the office late at night more important than the cleaners' desire to do their job thoroughly and without my getting in the way?"
posted by Narrative Priorities at 2:05 PM on October 26, 2014 [25 favorites]