Boundaries with builders.

November 21, 2013 8:07 AM

Hands up. I struggle with boundaries. I am pretty confident (some think 'uber' confident).. but give me a situation that could potentially spurn conflict and I will do anything to avoid it. This has caused me a phenomenal amount of other kinds of crap. So here s the deal - I have had a young'trainee' builder in doing some work - very pleasant and a good worker. We agreed a fee and I said I'd pay half that if he did half a day. He said he'd do the full day today and so I was shocked when he left at 3:30 (he started at 10). I said I would settle with him on his last day (this was because I wasn't sure what to pay and wanted to think about), though then he'll be with someone else so I'm probably going to find it harder. I can see now, I should have stated prior what I meant by a full day. 2 questions - Is a builder's day shorter than an office day? They seem a bit of a law unto themselves. If it should be an 8 hr day - how do I say I'd pay for 3/4's of a day whilst sounding reasonable and nice/assertive instead of aggressive or a tad, frankly, nervous.

This might sound really trivial to someone who doesn't struggle with this stuff but I genuinely find it hard to even find the right words (my mum was also on the aggressive side of assertive and I hated it).

I am so tempted to just pay a full day. It's not a lot of money in the grand schema but I always back out of this stuff, so it's more about trying to be 'adult' about it all. Madness but I am quite dreading the prospect of the three quarter discussion.

posted by tanktop to Work & Money (9 answers total)

you avoid this in the future by pricing construction by the job, not by the unit of labor time.
posted by bruce at 8:12 AM on November 21, 2013 [5 favorites]

I am wondering why you didn't settle on a fee for the work rather than the time. Builders are notorious for
1) not showing up
2) leaving early and/or arriving late
3) numerous and/or long tea breaks
4) leaving to find a part and being gone too long
5) taking much longer than the estimated time-almost inevitable even if no changes are made and there frequently are changes.

I have had wonderful builders whom I really liked and who almost became part of the family, but stuck to pay per job nevertheless. Of course, sometimes problems and changes require additional pay.

Even for small jobs it is recommended to set an amount for the work and then they tell you how long it will take, but that's really their lookout then.
posted by claptrap at 8:16 AM on November 21, 2013 [2 favorites]

Good business people do business in a business-like manner. Showing up on time, keeping track of hours, and sticking to contracts.

No, a builder's day is not shorter than an 8 hour day. But there is stuff that contributes to your build that doesn't happen on your premisis.

1. Going for the permit.
2. Going to the store for supplies.
3. Going to the corner for day laborers.

Also, in the future, NEVER pay by the hour, pay by the job. X for materials and Y for labor. ALWAYS have a contract and in it, put in a clause stipulating the estimated time it will take for completion, with a drop dead date. Put, Time is of the Essence. That means if the job isn't completed by that date, that there is a penalty. Say $500 for every week or portion that the job is delayed. Have a time table for payouts. Say weekly. So the cost of the labor, devided by the number of weeks it's estimated to take (or days.)

Here is how I would approach it going forward.

"Logan, I've been doing some research and I think we've gone about this the wrong way. Let's regroup and try again. This time let's do a proper contract and you can tell me what the labor portion of it is and I'll pay you a portion in (weekly, daily, hourly) installments. I'll pay for materials, but I'll need to have you give me the receipts. Also, I've called the planning office, and they say that we need permits. You have pulled permits, right?"

This is business, not a personal relationship. Get over yourself so you don't get screwed.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 8:17 AM on November 21, 2013

I know a lot of builders who leave work at 3 in the afternoon. They also arrive at work at 5 or 6 in the morning, not 10.
posted by mollymayhem at 8:33 AM on November 21, 2013 [1 favorite]

Construction people generally start at 7am. With a half hour lunch 3:30 is a full 8-hour day. There may be a union clause if he is a tradesman that any work started before noon is considered a full day at 3:30pm. Check the local union statutes or governing state rules.

Also are you paying by the hour or what? You aren't too clear on the specifics in the OP and I think there is a possibility you may not have been too clear with the builder.
posted by JJ86 at 8:54 AM on November 21, 2013

Did he get the job done? If so, pay him what you agreed. Don't focus on whether it's the "right" thing to do or if you're being taken advantage of. If the job was worth the price, then pay it.
posted by Etrigan at 8:58 AM on November 21, 2013 [1 favorite]

I don't think the OP agreed on an hourly rate. I think they agreed on a set price for the job but also assumed they'd pay 50% today and 50% tomorrow, when it was completed - correct?

OP, your underlying assumption that 50% of the work would be done on the first day. So go based on that. Just pay the 50% that you planned to pay, as long as you feel the job is about 50% complete. It's pretty standard for contractors to not get paid until the work is done (aside from a small deposit) and I doubt your contractor will kick up a fuss. Don't even mention the 3/4 day thing - you're probably the only one who's counting the hours. Just pay the 50% (and again, only if you feel the job is at least half done) and be done with it. If he asks for more (he probably won't), tell him he'll get the balance when the work is complete.
posted by yawper at 9:34 AM on November 21, 2013

Response by poster: Thanks for your help, it has given me a few ideas about how to handle similar situations a little differently in the future.

Re: the tasks - I had given him a list of what needed to be done (so was ok with that bit) and he said it would be up to two days. I also asked if he could start earlier on saturday, the 2nd day (when he finishes - hopefully) and stay longer then as "there's still a lot to be done", he seemed to agree to this though was a little flaky..
So I guess, yes how much gets done by the end of saturday needs to guide the payment. He did make a comment about me needing to "think about what the priorities were" which made me worry he might not do everything. Yes I should've said all of it. I'd really appreciate any suggestions about whether I need to firm things up a bit more (probably by text to be honest.. as I'd find that a little easier).

He is young and just starting out and trying hard and finding his way... I could be completely wrong about his integrity (it has definately been known) but I don't think he's out to shaft me...I just need to figure out what is ok with me/how to keep my boundaries - not easy for everyone. I should possibly say that I'm a Brit.. from the few Americans I've known I've noticed that they can find being more forthright easier in general.
posted by tanktop at 11:53 AM on November 21, 2013

10 - 3.30 is 5.5 hours, which is .7 of a day. Keep track of hours every day and pay accordingly. Be cheerful, calm and polite. Builder, you worked 5 1/2 hours, then 6 hours, then 4 hours. That's 15 1/2 hours, so we'll call it 2 days. The stain on that repaired bench came out great.
posted by theora55 at 2:42 PM on November 21, 2013 [1 favorite]