Trust vs. Control
October 9, 2013 6:28 AM Subscribe
I posted a pervious question regarding dating a man who wasn't forthcoming about a detail in his life (a 2nd child with a different woman) and my creeping suspicions that learning about him hiding this child was an indication of a future of lies and trust issues. I have let this man go, not because of the child, but because I am unable to trust him for many other reasons and now I want to learn a healthy balance between Trust and Control in relationships and dealing with insecurities. How do you move past insecurities and know when to just trust someone and recognize if your insecurities are causing you to control and sabatoge.
Long story short...I was married 1.5 years ago to a man who would often times go behind my back and talk to woman for attention, I didn't like it and would find out through 'snooping' through his phone (I'm not proud of this, and know it was wrong). So I started a new relationship with someone who was very quick (in my previous posts) in confessing his desire for me and how he had been looking for someone like me I was perfect. I was suspicious, he was handsome, charming, treated me like a queen but something just screamed he was too good to be true and I was going to be hurt. I noticed him on his phone a lot the first couple months and comments about how he had previously been unfaithful made me act in a way I had in the past which I was ashamed of, I looked through his phone. I found suspiciuos texts from exes... we talked through it, I said I didnt want to behave like that. I did it again, because in my gut I felt he was lying about something, which turns out my gut was right and he had met with another Ex GF. I got to a point where I felt like the only way to get the truth and avoid being hurt was to look at his phone and every time I did I found something. An e-mail from an ex indicating he had another child (which he confessed to), or a text from yet another ex indicating he had been watching her dog when in fact he was telling me it was someone elses (which he admitted to saying he didn't want to tell me to give me the wrong impression).
I know this is an insecurity thing, and you shoulnd't be with people that make you want to snoop- but it's almost what I have been conditioned to do and used to, I do not want to be this way. I'm afraid it is almost my way of trying to control the situation, or is it that I have been with the wrong people who have given me reason to doubt and that urge to snoop to protect myself is there? I do feel horribly guilty. I know this man will never provide me the things I need, but I can't let go of the guilt of my actions. There were a lot of good things about this man, but a lot of controlling manipulative bad things too. I broke it off because he is just unable to be honest with me about small things in fear of my reaction...but he is so adament that I am the one that caused this because I just can't trust him and that I am crazy for hijacking his phone. He has walked away from me 2 times out of "confusion and not knowing what he wanted" (leaving me with a lack of trust and insecurity when he did come back)...I know, I should have seen this and let him go but I didn't. He has been less than truthfull about an ex who visited him (we were long distance) on a whim because her bf at the time stood her up at the airport in the city he lives...I had a gut instinct, asked him he refused to tell me, so i looked for the evidence in his phone and found it- that is when he admitted to it.
I absolutly do not want to be that GF that feels the need to snoop, I want to trust, and I did in the beginning until my gut was screaming at me. I'm not sure how to differentiate between am I picking these men who are just not emotionally available to fully trust, or is the issue me and just beeing too insecure and trying to control every aspect of a relationship. Maybe I have never experienced what a good relationship truely is and feel I will never find someone I am 100% secure with because I have allowed myself to be lied to and burned so many times. I just want honesty and openness, I voice that and then it comes back to blaming me for not being able to trust him. Someone who has walked out on me, lied to me, cut me down, made me felt not good enough, etc. Maybe I require too much in a relationship or need to know too much information about someone's life and what they are doing... but I think in a state of trying to work out a relationship and re-build trust after being walked out on, someone has the right to be honest if they have been watching an Exes dog, or be honest about any other question I am asking to prove to me that I can trust you again.
Long story short...I was married 1.5 years ago to a man who would often times go behind my back and talk to woman for attention, I didn't like it and would find out through 'snooping' through his phone (I'm not proud of this, and know it was wrong). So I started a new relationship with someone who was very quick (in my previous posts) in confessing his desire for me and how he had been looking for someone like me I was perfect. I was suspicious, he was handsome, charming, treated me like a queen but something just screamed he was too good to be true and I was going to be hurt. I noticed him on his phone a lot the first couple months and comments about how he had previously been unfaithful made me act in a way I had in the past which I was ashamed of, I looked through his phone. I found suspiciuos texts from exes... we talked through it, I said I didnt want to behave like that. I did it again, because in my gut I felt he was lying about something, which turns out my gut was right and he had met with another Ex GF. I got to a point where I felt like the only way to get the truth and avoid being hurt was to look at his phone and every time I did I found something. An e-mail from an ex indicating he had another child (which he confessed to), or a text from yet another ex indicating he had been watching her dog when in fact he was telling me it was someone elses (which he admitted to saying he didn't want to tell me to give me the wrong impression).
I know this is an insecurity thing, and you shoulnd't be with people that make you want to snoop- but it's almost what I have been conditioned to do and used to, I do not want to be this way. I'm afraid it is almost my way of trying to control the situation, or is it that I have been with the wrong people who have given me reason to doubt and that urge to snoop to protect myself is there? I do feel horribly guilty. I know this man will never provide me the things I need, but I can't let go of the guilt of my actions. There were a lot of good things about this man, but a lot of controlling manipulative bad things too. I broke it off because he is just unable to be honest with me about small things in fear of my reaction...but he is so adament that I am the one that caused this because I just can't trust him and that I am crazy for hijacking his phone. He has walked away from me 2 times out of "confusion and not knowing what he wanted" (leaving me with a lack of trust and insecurity when he did come back)...I know, I should have seen this and let him go but I didn't. He has been less than truthfull about an ex who visited him (we were long distance) on a whim because her bf at the time stood her up at the airport in the city he lives...I had a gut instinct, asked him he refused to tell me, so i looked for the evidence in his phone and found it- that is when he admitted to it.
I absolutly do not want to be that GF that feels the need to snoop, I want to trust, and I did in the beginning until my gut was screaming at me. I'm not sure how to differentiate between am I picking these men who are just not emotionally available to fully trust, or is the issue me and just beeing too insecure and trying to control every aspect of a relationship. Maybe I have never experienced what a good relationship truely is and feel I will never find someone I am 100% secure with because I have allowed myself to be lied to and burned so many times. I just want honesty and openness, I voice that and then it comes back to blaming me for not being able to trust him. Someone who has walked out on me, lied to me, cut me down, made me felt not good enough, etc. Maybe I require too much in a relationship or need to know too much information about someone's life and what they are doing... but I think in a state of trying to work out a relationship and re-build trust after being walked out on, someone has the right to be honest if they have been watching an Exes dog, or be honest about any other question I am asking to prove to me that I can trust you again.
I got to a point where I felt like the only way to get the truth and avoid being hurt was to look at his phone and every time I did I found something.
What if the next time such a situation presented itself, rather than snooping, you say, "I feel like there's something off here. I need you to tell me the truth now, or I'm leaving." And then leave. No snooping necessary.
It looks like so far your gut feeling has been telling you the right things, so trust it. And even if you happen to be wrong occasionally, do you really want to be with someone who seems great but inside gives you terrible squick feelings?
If you don't want to be the person who snoops, just don't snoop. Have some respect for yourself by expecting others to have respect for you. If you aren't getting what you need, then leave, end of discussion.
posted by phunniemee at 6:42 AM on October 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
What if the next time such a situation presented itself, rather than snooping, you say, "I feel like there's something off here. I need you to tell me the truth now, or I'm leaving." And then leave. No snooping necessary.
It looks like so far your gut feeling has been telling you the right things, so trust it. And even if you happen to be wrong occasionally, do you really want to be with someone who seems great but inside gives you terrible squick feelings?
If you don't want to be the person who snoops, just don't snoop. Have some respect for yourself by expecting others to have respect for you. If you aren't getting what you need, then leave, end of discussion.
posted by phunniemee at 6:42 AM on October 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
You seem to want trust to be solely on your terms. That won't happen. Trust me.
posted by epo at 7:14 AM on October 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by epo at 7:14 AM on October 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I'm not sure how to differentiate between am I picking these men who are just not emotionally available to fully trust, or is the issue me and just beeing too insecure and trying to control every aspect of a relationship.
It's possible that it's both.
I don't know you and I only have your questions on this site to work with, so pardon me if I'm in any way off-base here, but it seems like what's going on here is this:
First, it looks like you've dated some people who are less than forthcoming and who behave in ways that are sketchy (Although, could you clarify what is meant by "a man who would often times go behind my back and talk to woman for attention?" What sorts of things were being said between him and these women? Were they flirty? Outright sexy? Friendly?). That's shitty, and it's on them, not you.
A lot of the time, people who act like this, they are fairly manipulative folks, and they'll do the sorts of things you mention here - they turn it around on you, and insist that the problem is not their sketchiness but your lack of trust. I would advise, though, that you consider the situation carefully when and if this happens, and avoid jumping quickly to conclusions. I say this because if there's a person telling you that you have trust and control issues, they may be saying it because they're sketchy, but they may instead be saying it because you actually do, and the two situations will look pretty similar. So be circumspect.
As far as this aspect of your relationships goes, I think it would be a good idea to take an honest look at the relationships you've had with people who behaved badly, and ask yourself what those people had in common and what attracted you to them. If you find yourself dating a lot of liars and cheaters, there may be some reason you keep winding up in those relationships - something below the surface that's attracting you to them.
Second, I think it's worth mentioning that trust issues can often be self-fulfilling.
The pattern that leaps out at me from the incidents you describe is that the behaviors, with some exceptions (omitting the existence of a child is pretty huge, for example), seem relatively benign, and only become issues because the guys were lying about them. For example, an ex visited him and he lied about that. The ex was in a relationship and so was he and the ex hung out with him because she happened to be in his city.
So my question is - and please answer as honestly as you can, I'm not here to judge you - is: Realistically, what would have happened if he'd been honest about it? Imagine that you had caught up at the end of the day via skype or text or email or however you were connecting long-distance, and you asked how his day was and he said, "Oh it was all right. I did some laundry and watched some more Mad Men, and then I got a call from [name of ex] - turns out that she was in town at the airport and her boyfriend stood her up, so we hung out for a while, and that was fun. How about you?" Assuming a scenario in which he isn't, say, lying about the existence of children, how would you take that?
See, this jumped out at me:
I broke it off because he is just unable to be honest with me about small things in fear of my reaction
How do you react to small things?
Now, to be clear, in no way am I saying that this is your fault. This isn't your fault. But as I say above, trust issues can be self-fulfilling. If he observes that you react poorly to small things, he may not be forthcoming about big things. He may also just be a total sketchball. I don't know.
But what I'm saying is, it can be a vicious circle. Maybe it starts out simply - maybe there's a fight that happens where you perceive something as troublesome and he perceives it as innocuous. Then, maybe that makes him want to be secretive in future, and maybe you notice the secrecy, which makes you less trusting, which makes him more secretive. And so on.
On paper, it seems really simple: Why date someone if you can't trust them? Why date someone if you have to hide things from them? But in real life, it's different. People, and relationships, are messy. People have bad traits but often they're outweighed by the good. AskMe is littered with questions from people whose basic premise is, "The person I'm dating is doing at least one thing that is very harmful to me/themselves/us, but otherwise I'm happy with them so breaking up is not an option." That's how people are. Love makes us kind of dumb.
So my advice to you is to do three things:
One: Spend a while considering what it is about these people you can't trust that they have in common. What elements are consistent between them? What do they do? How do they behave? What is something you can say about one of them that also applies to the other?
Two: Give some consideration to how you handle small things in relationships and ask yourself if you might possibly have ever engaged in any behavior patterns which would discourage people from being forthcoming about anything. For example, lying about kids is bad, and emotional affairs are bad, yes; but have you found that fights tend to happen when your boyfriends spend time hanging out or talking with their exes, even when they don't lie to you about it? Are you on friendly terms with any ex-boyfriends of your own? What are your expectations in this area?
Three: This can be hard work to unpack on your own, so if you have insurance that covers it, I don't think it would be a terrible idea to maybe talk to a therapist, say, every other week and see what they think about these questions you're asking yourself.
Good luck.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 8:08 AM on October 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
It's possible that it's both.
I don't know you and I only have your questions on this site to work with, so pardon me if I'm in any way off-base here, but it seems like what's going on here is this:
First, it looks like you've dated some people who are less than forthcoming and who behave in ways that are sketchy (Although, could you clarify what is meant by "a man who would often times go behind my back and talk to woman for attention?" What sorts of things were being said between him and these women? Were they flirty? Outright sexy? Friendly?). That's shitty, and it's on them, not you.
A lot of the time, people who act like this, they are fairly manipulative folks, and they'll do the sorts of things you mention here - they turn it around on you, and insist that the problem is not their sketchiness but your lack of trust. I would advise, though, that you consider the situation carefully when and if this happens, and avoid jumping quickly to conclusions. I say this because if there's a person telling you that you have trust and control issues, they may be saying it because they're sketchy, but they may instead be saying it because you actually do, and the two situations will look pretty similar. So be circumspect.
As far as this aspect of your relationships goes, I think it would be a good idea to take an honest look at the relationships you've had with people who behaved badly, and ask yourself what those people had in common and what attracted you to them. If you find yourself dating a lot of liars and cheaters, there may be some reason you keep winding up in those relationships - something below the surface that's attracting you to them.
Second, I think it's worth mentioning that trust issues can often be self-fulfilling.
The pattern that leaps out at me from the incidents you describe is that the behaviors, with some exceptions (omitting the existence of a child is pretty huge, for example), seem relatively benign, and only become issues because the guys were lying about them. For example, an ex visited him and he lied about that. The ex was in a relationship and so was he and the ex hung out with him because she happened to be in his city.
So my question is - and please answer as honestly as you can, I'm not here to judge you - is: Realistically, what would have happened if he'd been honest about it? Imagine that you had caught up at the end of the day via skype or text or email or however you were connecting long-distance, and you asked how his day was and he said, "Oh it was all right. I did some laundry and watched some more Mad Men, and then I got a call from [name of ex] - turns out that she was in town at the airport and her boyfriend stood her up, so we hung out for a while, and that was fun. How about you?" Assuming a scenario in which he isn't, say, lying about the existence of children, how would you take that?
See, this jumped out at me:
I broke it off because he is just unable to be honest with me about small things in fear of my reaction
How do you react to small things?
Now, to be clear, in no way am I saying that this is your fault. This isn't your fault. But as I say above, trust issues can be self-fulfilling. If he observes that you react poorly to small things, he may not be forthcoming about big things. He may also just be a total sketchball. I don't know.
But what I'm saying is, it can be a vicious circle. Maybe it starts out simply - maybe there's a fight that happens where you perceive something as troublesome and he perceives it as innocuous. Then, maybe that makes him want to be secretive in future, and maybe you notice the secrecy, which makes you less trusting, which makes him more secretive. And so on.
On paper, it seems really simple: Why date someone if you can't trust them? Why date someone if you have to hide things from them? But in real life, it's different. People, and relationships, are messy. People have bad traits but often they're outweighed by the good. AskMe is littered with questions from people whose basic premise is, "The person I'm dating is doing at least one thing that is very harmful to me/themselves/us, but otherwise I'm happy with them so breaking up is not an option." That's how people are. Love makes us kind of dumb.
So my advice to you is to do three things:
One: Spend a while considering what it is about these people you can't trust that they have in common. What elements are consistent between them? What do they do? How do they behave? What is something you can say about one of them that also applies to the other?
Two: Give some consideration to how you handle small things in relationships and ask yourself if you might possibly have ever engaged in any behavior patterns which would discourage people from being forthcoming about anything. For example, lying about kids is bad, and emotional affairs are bad, yes; but have you found that fights tend to happen when your boyfriends spend time hanging out or talking with their exes, even when they don't lie to you about it? Are you on friendly terms with any ex-boyfriends of your own? What are your expectations in this area?
Three: This can be hard work to unpack on your own, so if you have insurance that covers it, I don't think it would be a terrible idea to maybe talk to a therapist, say, every other week and see what they think about these questions you're asking yourself.
Good luck.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 8:08 AM on October 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'm not sure how to differentiate between am I picking these men who are just not emotionally available to fully trust, or is the issue me and just beeing too insecure and trying to control every aspect of a relationship.
Both seem to be true from what you're describing.
You need to choose better partners who don't hide important things from you, and you need to change your reaction when you start feeling insecure - stop and really think about what the trigger is (is it a reasonable or unreasonable reaction?) and talk to your partner about it before jumping to "I don't trust him, may as well look at his phone to verify how right I am". Snooping on his phone is way more of a breach of trust than not divulging a friendly chat with an ex!
You're absolutely right that it's not ok for a partner to lie about meeting up with an ex. I'm a little concerned that so many of the "hidden things" involved exes, though - it is 100% ok to be in friendly contact with an ex, so it's odd that your partner is hiding it. This makes me think that he's either cheating with the ex and/or that he's afraid of your reaction - either from his own baggage or because you've reacted badly in the past. If you have, that needs to change. If it's from his own baggage, you guys need to have a talk about it and make it clear that you're not going to have a hissy fit, and he's not going to lie about meeting exes.
posted by randomnity at 8:44 AM on October 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
Both seem to be true from what you're describing.
You need to choose better partners who don't hide important things from you, and you need to change your reaction when you start feeling insecure - stop and really think about what the trigger is (is it a reasonable or unreasonable reaction?) and talk to your partner about it before jumping to "I don't trust him, may as well look at his phone to verify how right I am". Snooping on his phone is way more of a breach of trust than not divulging a friendly chat with an ex!
You're absolutely right that it's not ok for a partner to lie about meeting up with an ex. I'm a little concerned that so many of the "hidden things" involved exes, though - it is 100% ok to be in friendly contact with an ex, so it's odd that your partner is hiding it. This makes me think that he's either cheating with the ex and/or that he's afraid of your reaction - either from his own baggage or because you've reacted badly in the past. If you have, that needs to change. If it's from his own baggage, you guys need to have a talk about it and make it clear that you're not going to have a hissy fit, and he's not going to lie about meeting exes.
posted by randomnity at 8:44 AM on October 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
I don't know, I have my own insecurities and still deep down inside I knew if a guy was solid or if he was flaky. I knew it because I just got a feel of how invested the person was in the relationship, how serious he took me, my feelings and "us." These guys just feel different from those who are a little too socially smooth, and quick with words and polished. Based on what you wrote above, maybe you DO know, but you just need the courage to trust your gut and walk away from that kind of flakiness instead of get drawn in by the superficial charm.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:01 AM on October 9, 2013
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:01 AM on October 9, 2013
I once heard a wonderful distinction between PRIVACY and SECRECY:
Privacy is keeping something to yourself that would not change the relationship if it were revealed.
Secrecy is keeping something to yourself that would potentially change the relationship if revealed.
This helps me know when trust is being breached.
posted by SarahBellum at 8:51 AM on October 12, 2013 [5 favorites]
Privacy is keeping something to yourself that would not change the relationship if it were revealed.
Secrecy is keeping something to yourself that would potentially change the relationship if revealed.
This helps me know when trust is being breached.
posted by SarahBellum at 8:51 AM on October 12, 2013 [5 favorites]
Trust your gut. So far, it has been the one thing you can seem to rely on. Unless you want to spend the rest of your life searching for clues (texts to exes, for example, or looking for incriminating hairs or lipstick stains on his clothes) to a crime you're sure has been committed but just don't have proof for, either walk away from this relationship or stop looking for clues. Half measures are getting you nowhere.
Get out or get over it.
posted by 42Phoenix at 12:15 PM on November 19, 2013
Get out or get over it.
posted by 42Phoenix at 12:15 PM on November 19, 2013
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Don't be so quick to go from dating to RELATIONSHIP. If you dally in the dating zone for a few months you can learn about the guy, find out if you feel safe with him and if he deserves your trust. If he does, then trust him. If he doesn't, time to move on.
Not everyone you date has to be your lover. Not every dating relationship moves onto a relationship. Not everyone who is attracted to you is right for you.
Be pickier. Be slower. If the guys you're choosing think you're too slow, too bad.
I would suggest that you go for a while on your own. Don't be so quick to rush into a new relationship. Spend some time with yourself. Understand what it is you want in a relationship and DON'T SETTLE FOR LESS!
I have been married for eleven years, and I've never once felt compelled to look through Husbunny's phone or email. It wouldn't occur to me, because it wouldn't occur to him to cheat.
People with nothing to hide, hide nothing.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 6:40 AM on October 9, 2013 [9 favorites]