Please stop making me take sides
September 20, 2013 3:30 PM Subscribe
How can I navigate the breakup of my close friend with my sister, which is still causing problems years later? I’m caught in the middle trying to be friends with both and it’s very frustrating!
A few years ago, my sister dated my good friend for a year or two. They broke up (messily) about 1.5-2 years ago, and haven’t been in contact since then. Until now it hasn’t been an issue – I haven’t invited her to social events where he would be there (which is pretty much all of them), haven’t brought him to family/her events (obviously), and have hung out with her separately. At first she said she understood, but she’s recently expressed unhappiness at being excluded from my social events. She thinks he needs to get over it and accept her being at the same social events. She is unhappy with me for choosing sides and inviting him to social events instead of her.
Details:
-I’ve lived with this friend for about 6-7 years, we're close friends and most of my friends are also his friends; my friend and I are in our late 20s, she’s in her early 20s.
-most of my social events are hosted at our house by my roommate and I together; even if they weren’t, excluding a roommate seems wrong to me
- he pursued her, she’d never been in a relationship, there were some mental health issues/lack of communication/hard partying eventually resulting in her cheating on him and then messy breakup when he found out (she didn’t tell him).
-he never wants to see or hear of her again, she doesn’t understand this (he’s her only ex), wants to be friendly or at least able to be in the same room, and doesn’t understand why he can’t “get over it” after this long
-she is in a relationship (with the guy she cheated with); my friend has been single since their breakup
-I have historically been closer to my friends than my family, although I’d like to be closer with my sisters, and have continued to invite the other 2 sisters to my social events. This is obviously unfair, but I think it would also be unfair to exclude them.
My current reasoning is that it isn’t a big deal if she doesn’t come to my parties, we can hang out separately (I have also invited her to my house with heads up to my roommate to “hide” if he wants, which he does), and it would be a bigger deal to exclude my roommate. I guess I could invite them both and tell him to deal with it, but that seems kinda unfair to me, given the circumstances of the breakup, and she would also probably bring her boyfriend which would be an extra slap in the face for my friend. This option is basically the same as excluding my friend since he wouldn’t attend if he knew she was going. And again, our parties are mostly hosted by him or both of us together, so that’s not really an option.
My sister doesn’t really get why he doesn’t ever want to see her, I’ve tried to explain it and tell her that it’s normal to avoid exes, even forever, but she still thinks he’s being oversensitive.
Question:
Am I being an asshole for not inviting my sister to these social events? If so, please tell me what I should be doing instead, because I’d far rather be told I’m an asshole than continue being one. If not, how do I explain it to my sister? I’ve already talked with her about it, emphasized how much I want to hang out with her too (and made concrete plans to do that), explained why he feels the way he does, empathized with her position, etc, while also being firm that I won’t invite her to parties hosted at our house. Is there another approach I can take so she’s feeling less hurt about it?
A few years ago, my sister dated my good friend for a year or two. They broke up (messily) about 1.5-2 years ago, and haven’t been in contact since then. Until now it hasn’t been an issue – I haven’t invited her to social events where he would be there (which is pretty much all of them), haven’t brought him to family/her events (obviously), and have hung out with her separately. At first she said she understood, but she’s recently expressed unhappiness at being excluded from my social events. She thinks he needs to get over it and accept her being at the same social events. She is unhappy with me for choosing sides and inviting him to social events instead of her.
Details:
-I’ve lived with this friend for about 6-7 years, we're close friends and most of my friends are also his friends; my friend and I are in our late 20s, she’s in her early 20s.
-most of my social events are hosted at our house by my roommate and I together; even if they weren’t, excluding a roommate seems wrong to me
- he pursued her, she’d never been in a relationship, there were some mental health issues/lack of communication/hard partying eventually resulting in her cheating on him and then messy breakup when he found out (she didn’t tell him).
-he never wants to see or hear of her again, she doesn’t understand this (he’s her only ex), wants to be friendly or at least able to be in the same room, and doesn’t understand why he can’t “get over it” after this long
-she is in a relationship (with the guy she cheated with); my friend has been single since their breakup
-I have historically been closer to my friends than my family, although I’d like to be closer with my sisters, and have continued to invite the other 2 sisters to my social events. This is obviously unfair, but I think it would also be unfair to exclude them.
My current reasoning is that it isn’t a big deal if she doesn’t come to my parties, we can hang out separately (I have also invited her to my house with heads up to my roommate to “hide” if he wants, which he does), and it would be a bigger deal to exclude my roommate. I guess I could invite them both and tell him to deal with it, but that seems kinda unfair to me, given the circumstances of the breakup, and she would also probably bring her boyfriend which would be an extra slap in the face for my friend. This option is basically the same as excluding my friend since he wouldn’t attend if he knew she was going. And again, our parties are mostly hosted by him or both of us together, so that’s not really an option.
My sister doesn’t really get why he doesn’t ever want to see her, I’ve tried to explain it and tell her that it’s normal to avoid exes, even forever, but she still thinks he’s being oversensitive.
Question:
Am I being an asshole for not inviting my sister to these social events? If so, please tell me what I should be doing instead, because I’d far rather be told I’m an asshole than continue being one. If not, how do I explain it to my sister? I’ve already talked with her about it, emphasized how much I want to hang out with her too (and made concrete plans to do that), explained why he feels the way he does, empathized with her position, etc, while also being firm that I won’t invite her to parties hosted at our house. Is there another approach I can take so she’s feeling less hurt about it?
I think you need to side with your sister on this a little more than you are. I've been in a similar situation and it sucks -- although not complicated by the fact that you live with this person -- so I'm not unsympathetic. But really, this is one of those things where I think you have to, at least sometimes, invite both of them to XYZ function and let them figure it out. Your friend can't expect you to take sides against your own sister, and I think she has a point that this was 2 years ago and he probably either needs to not live with a person whose sister is his Hated Ex or learn to deal with it in a civil manner, even if the break-up super sucked. As we get older, we all have people who are friends with/related to our friends whom we've dated unsuccessfully and part of living in the world is being able to see those people without wanting to stab them in the face.
You don't have to invite her to everything but it might ease things if you started having events in, say, bars rather than your house where her ex lives, invited both of them and told them both that the other was coming. And then leave the ball in their court. You can be super nice to them, but they have to learn to negotiate this themselves, and if your friend's reaction is that he'd rather not attend than suck it up now and then...that's his reaction. It's been two years, you know?
I think it's fair that you feel it's slightly rude to invite her to parties at your house, but your sister isn't wrong for feeling left out, so maybe it's time to start having parties elsewhere now and then as a compromise.
posted by Countess Sandwich at 3:52 PM on September 20, 2013 [19 favorites]
You don't have to invite her to everything but it might ease things if you started having events in, say, bars rather than your house where her ex lives, invited both of them and told them both that the other was coming. And then leave the ball in their court. You can be super nice to them, but they have to learn to negotiate this themselves, and if your friend's reaction is that he'd rather not attend than suck it up now and then...that's his reaction. It's been two years, you know?
I think it's fair that you feel it's slightly rude to invite her to parties at your house, but your sister isn't wrong for feeling left out, so maybe it's time to start having parties elsewhere now and then as a compromise.
posted by Countess Sandwich at 3:52 PM on September 20, 2013 [19 favorites]
Your friend has been holding a grudge for 2 years, and by excluding your sister, you're helping him do that.
"Friend. I understand Sister hurt you deeply, but it's long past the point where you should be able to be in the same room with her. I simply can not exclude her from social engagements at my home any longer. Can we work towards some kind of neutrality between the two of you so that all of us can move past what happened? I'd consider it a favor to me. Thank you, Friend."
"Sister, I've talked to Friend. We're trying to work something out. Out of respect to me, can we agree that we go slowly in this process? The first few times we all hang out, I think it is best if you don't bring Boyfriend. In a few months he'll be more the welcome, but for now, let's take it slowly. OK? Thank you, Sister."
Your friend needs to let go of this grudge and start dating again, if he's not already.
It was wrong of you to exclude your sister after the first 4 to 6 months. You've let this go way too far, fix it!
posted by jbenben at 3:54 PM on September 20, 2013 [23 favorites]
"Friend. I understand Sister hurt you deeply, but it's long past the point where you should be able to be in the same room with her. I simply can not exclude her from social engagements at my home any longer. Can we work towards some kind of neutrality between the two of you so that all of us can move past what happened? I'd consider it a favor to me. Thank you, Friend."
"Sister, I've talked to Friend. We're trying to work something out. Out of respect to me, can we agree that we go slowly in this process? The first few times we all hang out, I think it is best if you don't bring Boyfriend. In a few months he'll be more the welcome, but for now, let's take it slowly. OK? Thank you, Sister."
Your friend needs to let go of this grudge and start dating again, if he's not already.
It was wrong of you to exclude your sister after the first 4 to 6 months. You've let this go way too far, fix it!
posted by jbenben at 3:54 PM on September 20, 2013 [23 favorites]
I don't think you're being an asshole; it is a tricky situation. Inviting them both to a social event and telling them to deal with it might not be the best idea. But maybe you could ask your friend if he's willing to meet with her just once (with you as the "mediator" or what have you) so that she has an opportunity to make amends. This would require her to take the process seriously and not bring her boyfriend along. And set up the condition that after that, if they can't come to an agreement to at least be civil and co-exist in larger social occasions then you will figure out a way that they never have to interact.
posted by cosmicbeast at 3:55 PM on September 20, 2013
posted by cosmicbeast at 3:55 PM on September 20, 2013
This is a really awkward situation, and you are caught in the middle. Since this friend is clearly a close friend and a roommate, have you thought about how you will handle major events? Like, when/if you get married? You aren't going to want to have to choose between them then, so they might as well reach some kind of detente sooner or later.
It kind of sounds like you sister is being a little insensitive, and could stand to approach the situation with an acknowledgement that she hurt your friend. And your friend could stand to maybe consider tolerating her presence occasionally as a favor to you.
Have you talked to either of them about how each of their stances is impacting you, and perhaps agree to meet in the middle?
posted by ambrosia at 4:17 PM on September 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
It kind of sounds like you sister is being a little insensitive, and could stand to approach the situation with an acknowledgement that she hurt your friend. And your friend could stand to maybe consider tolerating her presence occasionally as a favor to you.
Have you talked to either of them about how each of their stances is impacting you, and perhaps agree to meet in the middle?
posted by ambrosia at 4:17 PM on September 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
Just STFU about the guy to your sister and your sister to the guy. I was one of the endpoints to social drama and it crashed and burned because the person caught in the middle could not STFU and it was just keeping those wounds open and spitting poison into them. Shut up. Refuse to discuss it further. It is between them. Stay out.
posted by Michele in California at 4:24 PM on September 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by Michele in California at 4:24 PM on September 20, 2013 [5 favorites]
Plenty of people have parties and don't invite their siblings. To me, this crosses a line at the point where your other sisters are invited to parties at your place, but not your friend's ex. If I were your sister this would make me feel as though you were taking sides against me. If you can't get friend and sister to play nicely, can you socialise separately with your family? But I agree, 2 years is a long time to hold a grudge. At some point, your friend's hurt feelings need to take into account how this is making life difficult for you.
posted by Cheese Monster at 4:28 PM on September 20, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by Cheese Monster at 4:28 PM on September 20, 2013 [8 favorites]
It's a hard spot to be in, that's for sure, but it sounds like you're handling it pretty well.
Unfortunately, I think you're going to have to flat-out tell your sister to back off and stop pressuring you: it's not HER decision what other people do in their own homes, and your roommate has every right in the world to say that he doesn't want anything to do with her, doesn't even want to see her: it's his home and his decision, not hers.
It doesn't matter that she might think Roommate should what, simply "get over it" and be her friend? He clearly does not WANT to be her friend, and she's just going to have to grow up and learn that what she wants isn't always what happens. She's got to accept that she hurt him, he wants nothing to do with her, and that's all there is to that.
posted by easily confused at 4:35 PM on September 20, 2013 [9 favorites]
Unfortunately, I think you're going to have to flat-out tell your sister to back off and stop pressuring you: it's not HER decision what other people do in their own homes, and your roommate has every right in the world to say that he doesn't want anything to do with her, doesn't even want to see her: it's his home and his decision, not hers.
It doesn't matter that she might think Roommate should what, simply "get over it" and be her friend? He clearly does not WANT to be her friend, and she's just going to have to grow up and learn that what she wants isn't always what happens. She's got to accept that she hurt him, he wants nothing to do with her, and that's all there is to that.
posted by easily confused at 4:35 PM on September 20, 2013 [9 favorites]
You are not responsible for your sister's social life. Given the fact that she cheated on him, I think it's perfectly reasonable for him to not want her in attendance at events he is co-hosting. Playing host can be stressful, even at good parties, and having his ex there is unlikely to put him in a convivial place. Your roommate sounds like your chosen family, too -- you're not just casual acquaintances -- and it's reasonable and fair for you to have his back about this as long as you're socializing with your sister in other situations. You don't have to invite her to your parties. She's an adult responsible for maintaining her own social life and she should understand that shitty behavior (cheating / lying) can shut certain social doors. I would not want to welcome my ex, or the person he cheated on me with, into my own home.
If you want to host social events on your own, outside of the house, inviting your sister is fine. Your roommate can then make his own choice about whether or not to attend. But you are still under no obligation to invite your sister if you would rather not. You are not in any way being an asshole.
posted by diamondsky at 4:37 PM on September 20, 2013 [22 favorites]
If you want to host social events on your own, outside of the house, inviting your sister is fine. Your roommate can then make his own choice about whether or not to attend. But you are still under no obligation to invite your sister if you would rather not. You are not in any way being an asshole.
posted by diamondsky at 4:37 PM on September 20, 2013 [22 favorites]
I disagree with those who say the friend is holding a grudge. I do not think the friend is holding a grudge. While Sister wants to "be friendly", there is no requirement of being friends or even social after a break-up. It is perfectly acceptable if he never wishes to see Sister again, especially if she may swing by the house with the man she cheated with.
OP, I do not think you are doing anything assholish. He's your roommate and has an equal say about who may be in the house. Probably the easiest thing to do is to stop hosting parties, or at least hold them at places other than your house. I think that is the only thing you could do that you aren't already doing now.
"She thinks he needs to get over it"
I see how it works. When we betray someone, we just say "get over it". Fine, so ask Sister why. Ask her how long is it before you welcome someone in your house who cheated you.
posted by Tanizaki at 4:50 PM on September 20, 2013 [21 favorites]
OP, I do not think you are doing anything assholish. He's your roommate and has an equal say about who may be in the house. Probably the easiest thing to do is to stop hosting parties, or at least hold them at places other than your house. I think that is the only thing you could do that you aren't already doing now.
"She thinks he needs to get over it"
I see how it works. When we betray someone, we just say "get over it". Fine, so ask Sister why. Ask her how long is it before you welcome someone in your house who cheated you.
posted by Tanizaki at 4:50 PM on September 20, 2013 [21 favorites]
Why doesn't she just co-host an event with you outside of your home or something? It odd to me that it's so important to her to see him.
Your roommate has every right to not see her if he doesn't want to. That is completely his decision. He alone knows exactly how hurt he was, how hard it is for him to move on, what cheating means to him, and how seeing exes impacts him.
If I had a roommate who tried to pressure me into seeing people I did not want to see, I would not have a roommate.
The decision to not take sides belongs to you. When she brings it up, tell her "It's his decision. I'm not interested in being in the middle, and I won't talk about it any more." If she keeps talking about it, change the subject, hang up, or walk away.
And yeah, have a couple of parties that aren't at your home if you want. But it sounds like what she really wants is to be invited to a party where she can see your roommate.
posted by bunderful at 6:17 PM on September 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
Your roommate has every right to not see her if he doesn't want to. That is completely his decision. He alone knows exactly how hurt he was, how hard it is for him to move on, what cheating means to him, and how seeing exes impacts him.
If I had a roommate who tried to pressure me into seeing people I did not want to see, I would not have a roommate.
The decision to not take sides belongs to you. When she brings it up, tell her "It's his decision. I'm not interested in being in the middle, and I won't talk about it any more." If she keeps talking about it, change the subject, hang up, or walk away.
And yeah, have a couple of parties that aren't at your home if you want. But it sounds like what she really wants is to be invited to a party where she can see your roommate.
posted by bunderful at 6:17 PM on September 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
Continue to do the good work you are doing to maintain your relationship with your friend. Your sister will always be your sister. Your friendship requires more commitment.
posted by hworth at 6:33 PM on September 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by hworth at 6:33 PM on September 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think it's unreasonable for someone to refuse their roommate's sister access to the house. He signed up for this kind of potential awkwardness by dating his roommate's sister. It sucks she cheated; maybe she can apologize and they can be civil. I wouldn't say she needs to be at every event but after two years it's time to move on. Yes, it's his house, but it's yours too and some compromise is in order on both sides.
posted by JenMarie at 6:47 PM on September 20, 2013 [9 favorites]
posted by JenMarie at 6:47 PM on September 20, 2013 [9 favorites]
While no one expected Sister to cheat, Friend knew the potential for dramaz when he started dating his best friend's sister.
Dating your best friend's sister requires more maturity than dating a stranger. If you go that route, you accept that responsibility, for the sake of your important friendship.
The OP has at least 50% right to invite whoever he wants to the home he and friend share.
2 years was a long time for the OP to accommodate his friend. At 2 years, the sister has been punished enough.
OP, if your sister is humble, apologetic, and respectful, then it's time everyone moves forward.
If your sister disagrees that she hurt the guy, then that's a different story. But in general, your friend's position that he never ever ever wants to see your sister again is a little overboard if he expects to stay friends with you for years to come. His position, years after the break up, is just not practical or reasonable. He dated his best friend's sister and it ended poorly.
At some point, if only for your sake, he needs to accept that he choose to a relationship that automatically requires extra responsibility and maturity. Being mature in this case means he needs to get to a neutral place with his ex, so that he's not constantly putting you in the middle.
It's been 2 years, at this point, he's just not being fair to you. It's time for your friend to accept your sister's apology and move on.
It'll be better for him, too.
posted by jbenben at 6:52 PM on September 20, 2013 [7 favorites]
Dating your best friend's sister requires more maturity than dating a stranger. If you go that route, you accept that responsibility, for the sake of your important friendship.
The OP has at least 50% right to invite whoever he wants to the home he and friend share.
2 years was a long time for the OP to accommodate his friend. At 2 years, the sister has been punished enough.
OP, if your sister is humble, apologetic, and respectful, then it's time everyone moves forward.
If your sister disagrees that she hurt the guy, then that's a different story. But in general, your friend's position that he never ever ever wants to see your sister again is a little overboard if he expects to stay friends with you for years to come. His position, years after the break up, is just not practical or reasonable. He dated his best friend's sister and it ended poorly.
At some point, if only for your sake, he needs to accept that he choose to a relationship that automatically requires extra responsibility and maturity. Being mature in this case means he needs to get to a neutral place with his ex, so that he's not constantly putting you in the middle.
It's been 2 years, at this point, he's just not being fair to you. It's time for your friend to accept your sister's apology and move on.
It'll be better for him, too.
posted by jbenben at 6:52 PM on September 20, 2013 [7 favorites]
Your roommate is being ridiculous. It's your sister. If he couldn't handle the fallout of dating your roommate's sister, he never should have pursued her. It's not like he has to interact with her if she comes to the party. If he can't handle looking at her after two years he probably needs therapy or something. Tell your sister not to bring her boyfriend or approach the roommate. And tell your roommate to stop being such a drama queen.
posted by nooneyouknow at 6:54 PM on September 20, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by nooneyouknow at 6:54 PM on September 20, 2013 [8 favorites]
Your sister will always be your sister. Your friendship requires more commitment.
Also, there is a chance you could seriously damage your relationship with your sister if you keep picking the roommate over her.
And, just something to think about, what about the rest of your family? They probably have opinions about this and it could escalate into something that entangles all of you, whichever "side" they are on.
posted by nooneyouknow at 7:03 PM on September 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Also, there is a chance you could seriously damage your relationship with your sister if you keep picking the roommate over her.
And, just something to think about, what about the rest of your family? They probably have opinions about this and it could escalate into something that entangles all of you, whichever "side" they are on.
posted by nooneyouknow at 7:03 PM on September 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
It's not fair of you to exclude you sister. I disagree that she's looking for an excuse to see your friend. I think she just wants to be included in the fun. And yes, after two years your friend needs to get over it a little. Two years seems excessive that he can't even stand the thought of seeing her. Is he still in love with her? Him dating would surely help, but that's not something you can influence. However, she is your sister, so by living with you he should accept that there is going to be some level of contact.
I think you should start inviting your sister to some percentage of your parties. I'm not sure how frequent they are, so maybe every other, or one out of three? And she shouldn't bring her boyfriend, at least not for a long while, till your friend gets used to her presence. They don't need to interact, nothing says he has to ever talk to her, but he should get himself to a place where he can at least be in the same building with her occasionally.
I think you should talk to each of them, and see if you can work out an agreement. She is invited to parties one out of every x times, you friend tolerates it and doesn't hide, and she agrees not to talk to him or bring her boyfriend. A little compromise from both sides will help everyone move on, and begin to defuse this tension until they can one day hopefully interact normally.
posted by catatethebird at 7:05 PM on September 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think you should start inviting your sister to some percentage of your parties. I'm not sure how frequent they are, so maybe every other, or one out of three? And she shouldn't bring her boyfriend, at least not for a long while, till your friend gets used to her presence. They don't need to interact, nothing says he has to ever talk to her, but he should get himself to a place where he can at least be in the same building with her occasionally.
I think you should talk to each of them, and see if you can work out an agreement. She is invited to parties one out of every x times, you friend tolerates it and doesn't hide, and she agrees not to talk to him or bring her boyfriend. A little compromise from both sides will help everyone move on, and begin to defuse this tension until they can one day hopefully interact normally.
posted by catatethebird at 7:05 PM on September 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Your sister is not interested in your parties. She can't see why your best friend is upset still? How about because she cheated and still doesn't get why he is upset. She wants to parade herself in front of him.
You have plenty of opportunities to hang out with your sister. If she wants to get invited to the parties that her ex throws she should start with an apology.
posted by munchingzombie at 7:26 PM on September 20, 2013 [10 favorites]
You have plenty of opportunities to hang out with your sister. If she wants to get invited to the parties that her ex throws she should start with an apology.
posted by munchingzombie at 7:26 PM on September 20, 2013 [10 favorites]
Normally I'd say you have to be on your sister's side no matter what because you're stuck with family whether you want to be or not. But (a) she's the one who did the jerkass cheating behavior, and (b) not only is this guy your friend, he's your roommate. And I don't think he has to tolerate your sister in his home, parties or no. It's his house too, he has the right to veto her coming over, wanting to be "friends" and bringing her boyfriend. I might say this differently if he was just a friend and lived elsewhere and could avoid the drama more easily, but as a roommate? No, he gets to veto her if he wants, and he still wants to.
You know what, she screwed up, and this is the price she gets to pay for it. No super fun parties at sister's house. Poor baby. I think the division you have going on right now is fair and equitable (friend doesn't get to go to your family stuff either), and yelling "Get over it!" isn't something that actually works. And I'm sorry, but it sounds like she is still being a jerk about this, so my sympathies are not with her. "But whyyyyyyyyy won't he be friends?" Come ON. Would she expect him to want to be her bestie if she stabbed him in the heart? I'm with munchingzombie: I think she does sound like she wants to mess with your friend a bit, and that's not cool.
Is there another approach I can take so she’s feeling less hurt about it?
No, not really. But she made her bed, so she's gonna have to lie in it. She can't force him to "get over it" and let her in the house even if it's been two years.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:32 PM on September 20, 2013 [8 favorites]
You know what, she screwed up, and this is the price she gets to pay for it. No super fun parties at sister's house. Poor baby. I think the division you have going on right now is fair and equitable (friend doesn't get to go to your family stuff either), and yelling "Get over it!" isn't something that actually works. And I'm sorry, but it sounds like she is still being a jerk about this, so my sympathies are not with her. "But whyyyyyyyyy won't he be friends?" Come ON. Would she expect him to want to be her bestie if she stabbed him in the heart? I'm with munchingzombie: I think she does sound like she wants to mess with your friend a bit, and that's not cool.
Is there another approach I can take so she’s feeling less hurt about it?
No, not really. But she made her bed, so she's gonna have to lie in it. She can't force him to "get over it" and let her in the house even if it's been two years.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:32 PM on September 20, 2013 [8 favorites]
If you're in your late 20's and you've been living in the same place for the last 6-7 years, then maybe it's time for a change now? You might want to try to get a new place, maybe on your own, this might improve things.
posted by ovvl at 7:45 PM on September 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by ovvl at 7:45 PM on September 20, 2013 [4 favorites]
I think the key elements here were:
Your several years younger than you sister, who had never dated anyone, got pursued by your several years older than her best friend. Some bad shit that you totally gloss over (mental health, communications, hard partying) resulted in your sister "cheating" on him, at which point he broke up with her when he found out and it's been messy since.
You chose to side with your buddy, cutting your sister out from major events and contiuing to live with him - and inviting your other sisters to everything.
There's more to this story, I think, but even as it stands, you sound like you're being a bit of an ass.
posted by corb at 7:47 PM on September 20, 2013 [16 favorites]
Your several years younger than you sister, who had never dated anyone, got pursued by your several years older than her best friend. Some bad shit that you totally gloss over (mental health, communications, hard partying) resulted in your sister "cheating" on him, at which point he broke up with her when he found out and it's been messy since.
You chose to side with your buddy, cutting your sister out from major events and contiuing to live with him - and inviting your other sisters to everything.
There's more to this story, I think, but even as it stands, you sound like you're being a bit of an ass.
posted by corb at 7:47 PM on September 20, 2013 [16 favorites]
My original take was that the mental health issues, poor communication, and hard partying were all something the sister did, but if corb is right that your friend treated your sister poorly and as a result she cheated?
OP, is this how it went down??
If this is the case, that your friend was a mess during his relationship with your sister and treated her super poorly, then yeah...
You sided with the wrong person in this equation.
posted by jbenben at 7:57 PM on September 20, 2013
OP, is this how it went down??
If this is the case, that your friend was a mess during his relationship with your sister and treated her super poorly, then yeah...
You sided with the wrong person in this equation.
posted by jbenben at 7:57 PM on September 20, 2013
It seems to me that the kindest approach you can take regarding your sister is to acknowledge that you are taking your friend's side in this.
Quit trying to dance around the subject by telling her that you're not taking sides but you can only socialize with her alone, outside your home (where your other siblings are allowed to go), and when your roommate has other plans. You don't really empathize with her - you say it would be unfair not to invite your other sisters and it's unfair not to invite her, too but Oh Well. That's not empathy, so quit stringing your sister along and letting her think that maybe someday she'll get what she needs from you as a sibling if only your roommate ever gets over her.
I don't care who was right or wrong or did what to whom - YOU be honest now and let your sister know where she stands for real, because you are not cultivating a closer relationship with her this way, you're just trying to not look like the bad guy.
posted by camyram at 8:11 PM on September 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
Quit trying to dance around the subject by telling her that you're not taking sides but you can only socialize with her alone, outside your home (where your other siblings are allowed to go), and when your roommate has other plans. You don't really empathize with her - you say it would be unfair not to invite your other sisters and it's unfair not to invite her, too but Oh Well. That's not empathy, so quit stringing your sister along and letting her think that maybe someday she'll get what she needs from you as a sibling if only your roommate ever gets over her.
I don't care who was right or wrong or did what to whom - YOU be honest now and let your sister know where she stands for real, because you are not cultivating a closer relationship with her this way, you're just trying to not look like the bad guy.
posted by camyram at 8:11 PM on September 20, 2013 [3 favorites]
You needed to take your sisters side a long time ago. "I don't take sides" is a ridiculous statement when you are family with one person and living with the other.
As you have totally taken his side, the least you can do is tell her that.
posted by French Fry at 8:12 PM on September 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
As you have totally taken his side, the least you can do is tell her that.
posted by French Fry at 8:12 PM on September 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
Here's the thing: by inviting your other two sisters, you are turning your parties into family events where your sister is specifically excluded. Do you honestly think your sister would care that much that you didn't invite her, if you weren't also inviting her sisters? C'mon. Don't be disingenuous. This is a hurtful move. You don't have to either force your friend to hang out with his ex or make your sister feel excluded. Just change your approach to your social events.
Here is what I would do:
1) Do not invite your sisters to parties hosted at your house. This is the friends only event.
2) Organize happy hours or other events outside of your home where you invite your friends and sisters. Tell your friend that you have invited your sister. He can choose whether or not to attend. This is the friends & family event.
3) Organize outings or hangouts with just your siblings. Go to the zoo or ice-skating or a ball game. Whatever you want. This is the family only event.
Do you see how in the three different types of social events above you are not choosing between anyone? You are allowing everyone to feel comfortable. You also get to hang out with your sisters and your friends.
Also, your sister can't make demands on what your friend should do. Don't have those conversations with her.
posted by studioaudience at 8:59 PM on September 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
Here is what I would do:
1) Do not invite your sisters to parties hosted at your house. This is the friends only event.
2) Organize happy hours or other events outside of your home where you invite your friends and sisters. Tell your friend that you have invited your sister. He can choose whether or not to attend. This is the friends & family event.
3) Organize outings or hangouts with just your siblings. Go to the zoo or ice-skating or a ball game. Whatever you want. This is the family only event.
Do you see how in the three different types of social events above you are not choosing between anyone? You are allowing everyone to feel comfortable. You also get to hang out with your sisters and your friends.
Also, your sister can't make demands on what your friend should do. Don't have those conversations with her.
posted by studioaudience at 8:59 PM on September 20, 2013 [6 favorites]
Mod note: From the OP:
Thanks very much for the replies. I'm surprised to see that the answers are so divided, but I'm finding them all helpful perspectives. I'm leaning towards talking to my roommate and seeing if he can flex with me a little on this, but if not, continuing to not invite her to most parties but maybe making more of an effort to host an occasional party that is "mine" and that I'll invite them both to (with fair warning).posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 9:12 PM on September 20, 2013
Hosting parties outside the home isn't a great solution for personal reasons (I hate bars, strong introvert/sensitive to noise), but it does make sense. I can try to do something outside the home for my next birthday and maybe a few other occasions. I already hang out with all my siblings together sometimes, I just tend to have the bigger social events at my house.
I'm torn on inviting my other siblings to these things - I've always invited all of them (although they don't often come), and it seems unfair to them to stop because of the situation with my other sister, which they had nothing to do with. I guess either way it's unfair, though. I really do get that it sucks for her, and I would like to solve this - maybe it's better to suck a little bit for them than to suck a lot more for her (being the only excluded one). I will think some more about this.
To address some specific questions/concerns I'm seeing:
-I don't think my friend is hung up on her, he just doesn't want to see her as he was deeply hurt by her actions
-I also don't think she wants to see him specifically, she's just hurt that he doesn't want to see her anymore and also feeling excluded by me
-I'm not sure she really realizes how much she hurt him, her friends are a pretty bad influence here and fool around on their boyfriends all the time (drugs are a factor)
-re: apology, she feels she has apologized and is resistant to further apologizing (she's stubborn, like me); he feels it was insincere and wanted more (but doesn't want to see her now). I wasn't there, I can't say.
-I have invited her over to the house before, just not to parties my roommate is co-hosting (i.e. all parties in the house, ~4-5 times a year)
-re: moving out, I did think about that, however we get along very well and I'm happy with him as a roommate (and have just signed a year-long lease in a new house I love). When the lease is up I'll be strongly considering it again, though.
-sorry to gloss over the bad shit - basically my sister was in a very unhealthy frame of mind for various reasons (including really bad, even though medicated, social anxiety) which led her to behave in really shitty ways (hiding her problems in the relationship and excessive partying/drug use, without my friend, to escape those problems and her general anxiety about life). Her friends are also very...troubled/heavy partiers, which didn't help. My friend did not treat her poorly, although he wasn't able to be very supportive due to her/their lack of communication. He is also from a very different upbringing (his family is ridiculously good, ours...was not), has never struggled with mental illness (to my knowledge), and didn't really get where she was coming from.
-yes, I didn't really approve of the age/experience difference either, but she was an adult (21 at the time, I think), and he wasn't going after her specifically because she was young or anything.
-I have avoided being judgmental about her shitty behaviour (without endorsing it, obviously) because she's only started to open up to me in the last few years, and still remains extremely closed off. I also don't blame her - everyone does dumb things in their early 20s, and she's had a harder time with life than most. I don't want to harm this fragile relationship with her, and I also don't want to cause unnecessary suffering for my friend. I had thought I could manage both, but it seems to be crumbling a bit now.
Hopefully that helps clarify things. Thanks!
Either now or later this sister needs to learn that if she chooses to make shitty decisions, she may not like the outcomes.
She chose to cheat on her partner, which--unless she is a complete idiot--is something she knew was going to cause this person she claimed to love pain. After choosing to do this and potentially exposing him to godknowswhat STDs, she didn't let him know; she was now making a second choice, this time to put his health at risk. Shitty choice after shitty choice.
I think it's perfectly fine for your room-mate to cut someone completely out of his life that has shown such a wanton disregard for his both his emotional heart and physical well-being. And it is perfectly understandable that he wouldn't want such a person in his house, at his party--it's akin to him inviting a guy who mugged him.
If your sister doesn't understand cause and effect by now--that treating people like shit is not going to make them want to be your friend--missing these parties is going to be the least of her problems.
posted by blueberry at 9:35 PM on September 20, 2013 [12 favorites]
She chose to cheat on her partner, which--unless she is a complete idiot--is something she knew was going to cause this person she claimed to love pain. After choosing to do this and potentially exposing him to godknowswhat STDs, she didn't let him know; she was now making a second choice, this time to put his health at risk. Shitty choice after shitty choice.
I think it's perfectly fine for your room-mate to cut someone completely out of his life that has shown such a wanton disregard for his both his emotional heart and physical well-being. And it is perfectly understandable that he wouldn't want such a person in his house, at his party--it's akin to him inviting a guy who mugged him.
If your sister doesn't understand cause and effect by now--that treating people like shit is not going to make them want to be your friend--missing these parties is going to be the least of her problems.
posted by blueberry at 9:35 PM on September 20, 2013 [12 favorites]
My sister is married to a person to whom I introduced her, a person with whom I was was good friends for several years before they ever met. I love my sister's husband. I consider him a brother, and as close as other members of my family. I'm the reason the two of them met, and I'm delighted to have introduced them to one another.
That said, if my sister ever left him, for whatever reason, even if it were objectively 100% her fault, I would 100% side with her, and I would drop him as a friend, and if she wanted me to, I would never speak to him again. I hope that never happens, because I love him, and I'd hate to lose him as a part of our family. But she's my sister, and even though he's my friend, he's fundamentally the person my sister married, and I love her more than I love him.
Take that as you will. My choices are not the choices everyone would make.
posted by decathecting at 11:16 PM on September 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
That said, if my sister ever left him, for whatever reason, even if it were objectively 100% her fault, I would 100% side with her, and I would drop him as a friend, and if she wanted me to, I would never speak to him again. I hope that never happens, because I love him, and I'd hate to lose him as a part of our family. But she's my sister, and even though he's my friend, he's fundamentally the person my sister married, and I love her more than I love him.
Take that as you will. My choices are not the choices everyone would make.
posted by decathecting at 11:16 PM on September 20, 2013 [2 favorites]
You say your roommate has never struggled with mental illness -- well, he's struggling with it now, seems to me. I know that it's awkward and it hurts like fire to be around someone when you don't get what you wanted from them, but in some situations you've just got to bolt on your big boy pants and walk into the party.
And it's true, that there are some people that you just can't see after a breakup, for whatever reason. That being the case, you're the one who has to walk out of the scene where she has every right to show up, unless/until you're able to gut up.
I'm not saying he has to gut it up, just that if he cannot / will not do so, it's up to him to get out of the way.
All this talk about her cheating on him. Guess what -- people walk out of relationships. Happens every day, they slide right out of one persons arms and slide right into another persons arms, arms they feel real good in. What they had was not working for her. Period. If it had been working for her, she'd not have snuggled herself into this other guys arms.
I know that it's awfully painful to be blindsided like your roommate was, and real humiliating. Life would be so much better if everyone acted with complete and total civility, never dated anyone until leaving the other, etc and etc. I sure do wish everyone acted that way.
I also wish that there was an Easter bunny.
Meanwhile, back here in real life, people do things which aren't maybe perfect. But every day that she stays happily with her new beau, the more perfect her decision seems.
I keep thinking what it's like in small towns in the UP, northern Michigan. I'm not from there but I know someone who is, and everybody has rolled around with everybody else, at one time or another, and if everyone acted like your roomie no one would ever show at any party. They are forced to gut up, face up to things, or sit at home in their rocking chair, brooding in front of the fire.
Sum: Your sister made her choice. It's been two years on now. Based upon all that is going on here, he's acting childish in this, churlish too. Don't cut your sister out of your life because of this childishness.
Your sister can't understand how badly this whole thing has hurt him because she's not been hit by that particular bus. Yet ...
posted by dancestoblue at 12:57 AM on September 21, 2013 [10 favorites]
And it's true, that there are some people that you just can't see after a breakup, for whatever reason. That being the case, you're the one who has to walk out of the scene where she has every right to show up, unless/until you're able to gut up.
I'm not saying he has to gut it up, just that if he cannot / will not do so, it's up to him to get out of the way.
All this talk about her cheating on him. Guess what -- people walk out of relationships. Happens every day, they slide right out of one persons arms and slide right into another persons arms, arms they feel real good in. What they had was not working for her. Period. If it had been working for her, she'd not have snuggled herself into this other guys arms.
I know that it's awfully painful to be blindsided like your roommate was, and real humiliating. Life would be so much better if everyone acted with complete and total civility, never dated anyone until leaving the other, etc and etc. I sure do wish everyone acted that way.
I also wish that there was an Easter bunny.
Meanwhile, back here in real life, people do things which aren't maybe perfect. But every day that she stays happily with her new beau, the more perfect her decision seems.
I keep thinking what it's like in small towns in the UP, northern Michigan. I'm not from there but I know someone who is, and everybody has rolled around with everybody else, at one time or another, and if everyone acted like your roomie no one would ever show at any party. They are forced to gut up, face up to things, or sit at home in their rocking chair, brooding in front of the fire.
Sum: Your sister made her choice. It's been two years on now. Based upon all that is going on here, he's acting childish in this, churlish too. Don't cut your sister out of your life because of this childishness.
Your sister can't understand how badly this whole thing has hurt him because she's not been hit by that particular bus. Yet ...
posted by dancestoblue at 12:57 AM on September 21, 2013 [10 favorites]
What's that saying? Resentment is like a poison you drink, hoping the other guy will die? Or something like that.
OP, I'm glad you are leaning towards talking to your friend.
Yeah, your sister is/was young and did some hurtful things, but now your friend is hurting all 3 of you! Don't let him do this any longer!!
Forgiveness here isn't about approving your sister's choices, it's about your friend making peace with his own past and moving forward. He does this for himself and the sake of your shared friendship - not for her.
I grew up in a really troubled family. I did not know your family was less than ideal when I commented earlier, but this all makes more sense since your update.
Help your friend to move past this. It's great for him that he came from a great family and doesn't know the pain your sister struggles with, but that is no excuse for him not to own his choice to get involved with BOTH of you.
He's being kinda an asshole dragging this out longer than the original relationship with your sister lasted in the first place. Nudge him out of his rut. It is in everyone's best interest.
Side Note: While my life now is great, I'm totally estranged from my effed up family. They still see me as the little kid my mom painted as the "Black Sheep of the Family," a label my mom started using about me when I was 5 years old. I'm happier than they are now, and my husband and son are a dream. Don't be my family if you can help it and your sister is meeting you halfway. This includes removing your roommate/best friend's poisonous resentment towards her from your relationship with your sister. Full stop.
posted by jbenben at 1:48 AM on September 21, 2013 [3 favorites]
OP, I'm glad you are leaning towards talking to your friend.
Yeah, your sister is/was young and did some hurtful things, but now your friend is hurting all 3 of you! Don't let him do this any longer!!
Forgiveness here isn't about approving your sister's choices, it's about your friend making peace with his own past and moving forward. He does this for himself and the sake of your shared friendship - not for her.
I grew up in a really troubled family. I did not know your family was less than ideal when I commented earlier, but this all makes more sense since your update.
Help your friend to move past this. It's great for him that he came from a great family and doesn't know the pain your sister struggles with, but that is no excuse for him not to own his choice to get involved with BOTH of you.
He's being kinda an asshole dragging this out longer than the original relationship with your sister lasted in the first place. Nudge him out of his rut. It is in everyone's best interest.
Side Note: While my life now is great, I'm totally estranged from my effed up family. They still see me as the little kid my mom painted as the "Black Sheep of the Family," a label my mom started using about me when I was 5 years old. I'm happier than they are now, and my husband and son are a dream. Don't be my family if you can help it and your sister is meeting you halfway. This includes removing your roommate/best friend's poisonous resentment towards her from your relationship with your sister. Full stop.
posted by jbenben at 1:48 AM on September 21, 2013 [3 favorites]
Room mate is under no obligation whatsoever to let someone into his home who hurt him badly. That's a pretty reasonably boundary, I think. I know I wouldn't want to have someone who treated me badly in the place I feel most secure. Someone shouldn't have to get over something for the benefit of someone else, or on someone else's timescale. Here on Ask, we tell people with unpleasant Ex's to avoid them at all costs pretty frequently. I think that's a good thing. If someone treats you badly, you don't owe them anything. Id be inclined to side against Roommate if he was trying to prevent the OP from seeing her sister at all, but he's just trying to keep Sister out of his personal space. It's not like he's called dibs on a bar or restaurant or some other public space and is grumping about Sister going there.
An individual has the right to their emotions and I think it's kind of shitty to invalidate them in the way that is being done here.
The only solution to this that I see, OP, is you taking your family and friends out for a picnic, or something. Or out to a quiet coffee bar. Or some other quiet place. Hell, get your sister to help organise it, so she feels more of a part of it. Invite all of your sisters and all of the friends who would normally be invited to the house. Give the roommate a heads up that your sister is going to be there. He's welcome to come and see your sister and the person she cheated on him with, but you'll understand if he doesn't show. You get to see everyone, your sister gets to see everyone, fun is had. Problem solved, unless your sister is indeed trying to force Roommate to deal with her. It doesn't sound like that's the case, it just sounds like she's feeling excluded, which she in actuality is. A party where she can come is the order of the day.
If your sister is actually incapable of understanding that hurting people causes them to, y'know, feel hurt, then she needs for her own sake to talk to someone about that. This jumped out at me as well: "I also don't think she wants to see him specifically, she's just hurt that he doesn't want to see her anymore". So, she doesn't want to see him she just wants him to see her? That's something that your sister needs to unpack a little bit.
posted by Solomon at 4:02 AM on September 21, 2013 [9 favorites]
An individual has the right to their emotions and I think it's kind of shitty to invalidate them in the way that is being done here.
The only solution to this that I see, OP, is you taking your family and friends out for a picnic, or something. Or out to a quiet coffee bar. Or some other quiet place. Hell, get your sister to help organise it, so she feels more of a part of it. Invite all of your sisters and all of the friends who would normally be invited to the house. Give the roommate a heads up that your sister is going to be there. He's welcome to come and see your sister and the person she cheated on him with, but you'll understand if he doesn't show. You get to see everyone, your sister gets to see everyone, fun is had. Problem solved, unless your sister is indeed trying to force Roommate to deal with her. It doesn't sound like that's the case, it just sounds like she's feeling excluded, which she in actuality is. A party where she can come is the order of the day.
If your sister is actually incapable of understanding that hurting people causes them to, y'know, feel hurt, then she needs for her own sake to talk to someone about that. This jumped out at me as well: "I also don't think she wants to see him specifically, she's just hurt that he doesn't want to see her anymore". So, she doesn't want to see him she just wants him to see her? That's something that your sister needs to unpack a little bit.
posted by Solomon at 4:02 AM on September 21, 2013 [9 favorites]
It sounds like your sister needs you more than your roommate does.
posted by aielen at 4:46 AM on September 21, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by aielen at 4:46 AM on September 21, 2013 [5 favorites]
For your own sanity, I would encourage you to move out.
If you throw your relationships out of this equation, this boils down to a simple question -- are people you *don't like* welcome into a shared living environment? Personally, I wouldn't want people I *don't like* in my house. What's the rule in your house?
Actually, I would refine that question -- are people you *don't like* welcome to a party you're hosting?
Personally, I can't think of anybody, who, in their right mind, would answer "yes" to that question. This isn't your standard "I'm inviting two people who don't like each other to the same party, what do I do"-type fare. Oh, no, it's much more black-and-white than that. You are literally asking the host of a party to invite someone to *his* party that he clearly *doesn't like*. In this situation, his *doesn't like* probably ventures to *hate*.
Assuming you've forgiven your sister for cheating on your friend, you've already given her a free pass. By continuing to press the issue, and asking to be invited to a party thrown by the guy she cheated on, she's really pushing the boundaries of your good will. If she's as inexperienced as you lead me to believe, by standing your ground, you will teach her one of the most important lessons of life -- don't cheat on people.
By moving out of your shared living situation, you'll be teaching your friend one of the most important lessons of life -- don't date your friend's sister.
posted by aflores at 6:04 AM on September 21, 2013 [1 favorite]
If you throw your relationships out of this equation, this boils down to a simple question -- are people you *don't like* welcome into a shared living environment? Personally, I wouldn't want people I *don't like* in my house. What's the rule in your house?
Actually, I would refine that question -- are people you *don't like* welcome to a party you're hosting?
Personally, I can't think of anybody, who, in their right mind, would answer "yes" to that question. This isn't your standard "I'm inviting two people who don't like each other to the same party, what do I do"-type fare. Oh, no, it's much more black-and-white than that. You are literally asking the host of a party to invite someone to *his* party that he clearly *doesn't like*. In this situation, his *doesn't like* probably ventures to *hate*.
Assuming you've forgiven your sister for cheating on your friend, you've already given her a free pass. By continuing to press the issue, and asking to be invited to a party thrown by the guy she cheated on, she's really pushing the boundaries of your good will. If she's as inexperienced as you lead me to believe, by standing your ground, you will teach her one of the most important lessons of life -- don't cheat on people.
By moving out of your shared living situation, you'll be teaching your friend one of the most important lessons of life -- don't date your friend's sister.
posted by aflores at 6:04 AM on September 21, 2013 [1 favorite]
Your sister did a shitty thing while she was young and mentally ill. People cheat on each other, even when they're not young and mentally ill. She made a mistake that hurt someone, and she's tried to make amends.
If you want to nurture your relationship with your sister, you cannot invite your other two sisters to parties at your house and not invite her. Your roommate should understand this.
Your roommate, by still 'hiding' from her after two years when he is the one who chose to date your sister in the first place, is putting you in an untenable position. He needs to start working on getting over it. People upthread have made great suggestions about talking to them both in nicer ways than I would personally bother to do, but they're probably right.
posted by woodvine at 6:08 AM on September 21, 2013 [5 favorites]
If you want to nurture your relationship with your sister, you cannot invite your other two sisters to parties at your house and not invite her. Your roommate should understand this.
Your roommate, by still 'hiding' from her after two years when he is the one who chose to date your sister in the first place, is putting you in an untenable position. He needs to start working on getting over it. People upthread have made great suggestions about talking to them both in nicer ways than I would personally bother to do, but they're probably right.
posted by woodvine at 6:08 AM on September 21, 2013 [5 favorites]
In my opinion, your friend chose to take this on. Dating siblings of friends means that there's a chance it will all go to hell and you'll have to play nice anyway -- you take that on when you wade into those muddy waters, it's part of the friend contract.
I'm not excusing her behavior, but it sounds like your sister is both younger and more vulnerable than you and your friend, so I think you and your friend are the ones with enough extra bandwidth to be adults here.
If your friend is firm on not having her over, which I can accept as "his right" even though I'd hope he'd flex a little, after two years, then I think inviting all siblings but one sounds especially hurtful. In that case, you can carve out some separate family time. Excluding your sister from events where other family is invited seems particularly punishing. She was, by your account, 21 and struggling with mental illness. While your friend has a right to be hurt, you don't need to punish her extra, you're her family.
posted by lillygog at 7:03 AM on September 21, 2013 [3 favorites]
I'm not excusing her behavior, but it sounds like your sister is both younger and more vulnerable than you and your friend, so I think you and your friend are the ones with enough extra bandwidth to be adults here.
If your friend is firm on not having her over, which I can accept as "his right" even though I'd hope he'd flex a little, after two years, then I think inviting all siblings but one sounds especially hurtful. In that case, you can carve out some separate family time. Excluding your sister from events where other family is invited seems particularly punishing. She was, by your account, 21 and struggling with mental illness. While your friend has a right to be hurt, you don't need to punish her extra, you're her family.
posted by lillygog at 7:03 AM on September 21, 2013 [3 favorites]
yeah cheating is bad and wrong, but your friend took a major risk in dating his close friend's younger sister- that risk being that if things end badly, they are likely still going to cross paths with each other for years to come. I agree that two years is a long time and he needs to get over it- they don't need to be friends, they don't even need to talk, but he has to be okay with her being in the same room as him at social events, including parties at his house- because it's also your house, and she's your sister.
I don't think you're being a jerk or anything. I think your roommate is being unfair to you, and you've been too accommodating- this is two years after the fact and probably a good time to start inviting your sister to parties if you want to!
posted by emd3737 at 7:04 AM on September 21, 2013 [3 favorites]
I don't think you're being a jerk or anything. I think your roommate is being unfair to you, and you've been too accommodating- this is two years after the fact and probably a good time to start inviting your sister to parties if you want to!
posted by emd3737 at 7:04 AM on September 21, 2013 [3 favorites]
But she made her bed, so she's gonna have to lie in it.
For how long? For the rest of her life? What if the OP and Friend remain best friends for the rest of their lives? Will Sister have to be excluded, say, from her own brother's wedding or baby shower if Friend will be there? Because of stupid shit, driven by mental health issues, that she did in her late teens or early 20s? If only we still made women wear scarlet letters...
I don't know exactly what the statue of limitations is on people in their 20s doing dumb shit in relationships, but I do know formerly married couples with children in which one spouse cheated on the other who were able to be in the same room and behave with civility more quickly than Friend seems to be able to. Of course Messy Breakups Are Messy, and residual hurt feelings can linger. This does not make Friend special, it makes him a member of a very, very large club, with millions of members. But this continued power play to punish Sister is bordering on the narcissistic, since Friend evidently expects OP to damage his own family relationships as a way of validating Friend's hurt feelings.
posted by scody at 11:09 AM on September 21, 2013 [9 favorites]
For how long? For the rest of her life? What if the OP and Friend remain best friends for the rest of their lives? Will Sister have to be excluded, say, from her own brother's wedding or baby shower if Friend will be there? Because of stupid shit, driven by mental health issues, that she did in her late teens or early 20s? If only we still made women wear scarlet letters...
I don't know exactly what the statue of limitations is on people in their 20s doing dumb shit in relationships, but I do know formerly married couples with children in which one spouse cheated on the other who were able to be in the same room and behave with civility more quickly than Friend seems to be able to. Of course Messy Breakups Are Messy, and residual hurt feelings can linger. This does not make Friend special, it makes him a member of a very, very large club, with millions of members. But this continued power play to punish Sister is bordering on the narcissistic, since Friend evidently expects OP to damage his own family relationships as a way of validating Friend's hurt feelings.
posted by scody at 11:09 AM on September 21, 2013 [9 favorites]
Well...I'd like to point out that the friend hasn't found anyone else to love since sister cheated on him. I strongly suspect this is part of the issue as well. And once he finds someone else, he may mellow out on this. Yeah, this may become ridiculous many years down the line if it's still happening, but I don't think two years is super out of line yet, especially when sister is his most recent ex still. Or that he just doesn't want to hang around someone that he consider to be a jerk, which could be the case too.
And formerly married couples are FORCED to be in the same room and behave with civility because of their children for the rest of their lives--they don't really get an option to not do that. I suspect most of them wouldn't be cooperating with each other if they didn't absolutely have to--and in some cases they don't anyway.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:30 PM on September 21, 2013 [3 favorites]
And formerly married couples are FORCED to be in the same room and behave with civility because of their children for the rest of their lives--they don't really get an option to not do that. I suspect most of them wouldn't be cooperating with each other if they didn't absolutely have to--and in some cases they don't anyway.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:30 PM on September 21, 2013 [3 favorites]
And formerly married couples are FORCED to be in the same room and behave with civility because of their children for the rest of their lives--they don't really get an option to not do that.
The point was not really about how divorce and child custody is legislated; the point was that after a certain period of time, adults are perfectly capable of getting on from horrible feelings following a breakup and behaving civily, whether mandated by a court or by social circumstances. The OP's friend is no exception.
posted by scody at 1:47 PM on September 21, 2013
The point was not really about how divorce and child custody is legislated; the point was that after a certain period of time, adults are perfectly capable of getting on from horrible feelings following a breakup and behaving civily, whether mandated by a court or by social circumstances. The OP's friend is no exception.
posted by scody at 1:47 PM on September 21, 2013
Him being capable of moving on from an unpleasant relationship in now way obligates him to. He might not even be capable of moving on and might spend the rest of his life in utter misery. Indeed, he might be choosing not to move on, for whatever reason. He gets to do that. Whether or not he is a bad person for not wanting the Ex who treated him badly in his house, it's still his right to decide whether or not he wants them there. He might be 100% pure, Grade A Asshole, but about who comes into his personal space, I think he gets to be.
He's not trying to break up the OP's family. He's not trying to stop the OP from seeing their sister. He's not tried to prevent the OP from having parties elsewhere. The OP even says that they hang out with all of their siblings. I'm failing to see any evidence that Roommate "expects OP to damage his own family relationships as a way of validating Friend's hurt feelings." As far as I can tell, Roommate has said that they don't want Sister (and by extension, likely Sister's current squeeze, who she cheated on Roommate with) in their living space, and that's it. Perhaps I'm missing something?
Setting up a strawman about the OP's wedding isn't helping bring clarity to the situation.
posted by Solomon at 2:42 PM on September 21, 2013 [7 favorites]
He's not trying to break up the OP's family. He's not trying to stop the OP from seeing their sister. He's not tried to prevent the OP from having parties elsewhere. The OP even says that they hang out with all of their siblings. I'm failing to see any evidence that Roommate "expects OP to damage his own family relationships as a way of validating Friend's hurt feelings." As far as I can tell, Roommate has said that they don't want Sister (and by extension, likely Sister's current squeeze, who she cheated on Roommate with) in their living space, and that's it. Perhaps I'm missing something?
Setting up a strawman about the OP's wedding isn't helping bring clarity to the situation.
posted by Solomon at 2:42 PM on September 21, 2013 [7 favorites]
Enough with the histrionics. The sister isn't invited to events co-hosted by roommate in the roommate's home. Not all events where they might both be there. The sister has even been to the house. This isn't a big deal.
posted by spaltavian at 3:23 PM on September 21, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by spaltavian at 3:23 PM on September 21, 2013 [6 favorites]
I'm failing to see any evidence that Roommate "expects OP to damage his own family relationships as a way of validating Friend's hurt feelings." As far as I can tell, Roommate has said that they don't want Sister (and by extension, likely Sister's current squeeze, who she cheated on Roommate with) in their living space, and that's it. Perhaps I'm missing something?
If you are missing something, it is not seeing that the roommate's act of telling the OP his own sister is prohibited from entering their shared living space during social events where the roommate will be present is indeed a means of purposely effecting the OP's relationship with his sister in a negative way. The roommate is demanding to set the terms of where, and thus to some degree, when, the OP is allowed to see his sibling. When social events are held at their shared home, he is forcing the OP to make the choice of either offending ALL of his siblings by inviting none of them, period, or just offending this one sister by excluding her, specifically. Whether or not you think the sister's cheating justifies this behavior is open for debate, I suppose, but that the roommate's behavior is negatively effecting the OP's relationship with his sister is objective fact. If it wasn't negatively effecting his relationship with his sister, there would be no question to be asked here.
My sympathies generally side with the cheated upon rather than the cheater in a case of infidelity. But, I'm sorry, when you date the sibling of a close friend, particularly a roommate, you do so with the knowledge that the relationship may not end in a lifelong commitment and that once it ends you may very well occasionally come into contact with your ex should you wish to continue the relationship with your friend/roommate.
Also, if I'm reading things correctly it appears the roommate has been mourning this relationship for longer than the actual relationship itself lasted (or at least an equal amount of time). I realize not everyone gets over a breakup in a predetermined amount of time, but at some point the onus is on the roommate to move on, rather than expecting the rest of the world to cater to his (admittedly, justified) hurt feelings. That time has long passed.
posted by The Gooch at 3:40 PM on September 21, 2013 [4 favorites]
If you are missing something, it is not seeing that the roommate's act of telling the OP his own sister is prohibited from entering their shared living space during social events where the roommate will be present is indeed a means of purposely effecting the OP's relationship with his sister in a negative way. The roommate is demanding to set the terms of where, and thus to some degree, when, the OP is allowed to see his sibling. When social events are held at their shared home, he is forcing the OP to make the choice of either offending ALL of his siblings by inviting none of them, period, or just offending this one sister by excluding her, specifically. Whether or not you think the sister's cheating justifies this behavior is open for debate, I suppose, but that the roommate's behavior is negatively effecting the OP's relationship with his sister is objective fact. If it wasn't negatively effecting his relationship with his sister, there would be no question to be asked here.
My sympathies generally side with the cheated upon rather than the cheater in a case of infidelity. But, I'm sorry, when you date the sibling of a close friend, particularly a roommate, you do so with the knowledge that the relationship may not end in a lifelong commitment and that once it ends you may very well occasionally come into contact with your ex should you wish to continue the relationship with your friend/roommate.
Also, if I'm reading things correctly it appears the roommate has been mourning this relationship for longer than the actual relationship itself lasted (or at least an equal amount of time). I realize not everyone gets over a breakup in a predetermined amount of time, but at some point the onus is on the roommate to move on, rather than expecting the rest of the world to cater to his (admittedly, justified) hurt feelings. That time has long passed.
posted by The Gooch at 3:40 PM on September 21, 2013 [4 favorites]
I can't think of a solution to this better than you moving out. Seriously. I was going to write some massive post involving anecdotes about similar situations i've dealt with over the years involving close friends i lived with in various living arrangements, but really 100% of this kind of shit has been killed the fuck dead since i stopped having roommates. it's been years since i've dealt with something like this.
There's all sorts of weird positioning, or taking sides you could do to try to smooth this over or work around it... but it's all putting duct tape on a leaky pipe compared to just moving out.
That all said, i think that roommate situations only work if each person involved has veto power on whose allowed to hang out there(with reasonable limitations, like for example..). I'd generally say however that it doesn't apply to people a roommate is actively dating(unless they're violent/steal things/etc) or family.
I think it's fair that she doesn't get invited to his parties, but i also think at this point he doesn't get to ban her from the house in general and that you are allowed to have parties and invite her.
I also think it's absolute fucking bullshit to invite your other sisters and not her, and kinda wanna hit both of you with a rolled up newspaper on that one. Either you invite all of them or none of them, the only exception would be if there was that one asshole sibling no one invited to anything which obviously isn't what's going on here.
Personally though, i don't think i would have been this fair about it. When a year rolled around i would have said "look dude, tough shit but this is ridiculous". And just put my foot down. Hell, i would have done that if it wasn't a sibling and was just a really close friend. I think that you don't get lifetime or at least indefinite veto power on someone you dated unless they were abusive. He's acting like a whiny highschool kid at this point, not an adult in his late 20s. I'm your sisters age, and i only really know one person who took a breakup like this and it was after a nearly six year relationship that ended less than a year ago.
In the end, pretty much, i think you could have a totally cool friendship with your best friend AND your sister if you gave up the house you like and got a smaller apartment you could afford on your own. What would you rather have here?
And as much as i hate to say it since i usually think the onus is on the cheater to deal with the shitmess they created, i really want to reiterate that i think your friend is being a saddlesore baby here after this amount of time. I question the wisdom of telling him to "deal with it sucka" in pretty much any way though, especially when it isn't like you co-own this house or something.
If you do decide to move out, make it very clear to your sister that you're unhappy with the current situation and that it will change, and you'll be spending more time with her and inviting her to all the stuff you'd invite your other sisters to(and possibly make some extra plans just with her as well). You will be amazed at how easy it is to do things at/with your house when you don't have to consider how your roommate(s) will play into the equation.
sorry if this is a weird rambly answer, it dredged up a lot of weird memories and made me reflect on some current situations going on around me but thankfully now outside my own house. hope it's helpful.
posted by emptythought at 3:58 PM on September 21, 2013 [2 favorites]
There's all sorts of weird positioning, or taking sides you could do to try to smooth this over or work around it... but it's all putting duct tape on a leaky pipe compared to just moving out.
That all said, i think that roommate situations only work if each person involved has veto power on whose allowed to hang out there(with reasonable limitations, like for example..). I'd generally say however that it doesn't apply to people a roommate is actively dating(unless they're violent/steal things/etc) or family.
I think it's fair that she doesn't get invited to his parties, but i also think at this point he doesn't get to ban her from the house in general and that you are allowed to have parties and invite her.
I also think it's absolute fucking bullshit to invite your other sisters and not her, and kinda wanna hit both of you with a rolled up newspaper on that one. Either you invite all of them or none of them, the only exception would be if there was that one asshole sibling no one invited to anything which obviously isn't what's going on here.
Personally though, i don't think i would have been this fair about it. When a year rolled around i would have said "look dude, tough shit but this is ridiculous". And just put my foot down. Hell, i would have done that if it wasn't a sibling and was just a really close friend. I think that you don't get lifetime or at least indefinite veto power on someone you dated unless they were abusive. He's acting like a whiny highschool kid at this point, not an adult in his late 20s. I'm your sisters age, and i only really know one person who took a breakup like this and it was after a nearly six year relationship that ended less than a year ago.
In the end, pretty much, i think you could have a totally cool friendship with your best friend AND your sister if you gave up the house you like and got a smaller apartment you could afford on your own. What would you rather have here?
And as much as i hate to say it since i usually think the onus is on the cheater to deal with the shitmess they created, i really want to reiterate that i think your friend is being a saddlesore baby here after this amount of time. I question the wisdom of telling him to "deal with it sucka" in pretty much any way though, especially when it isn't like you co-own this house or something.
If you do decide to move out, make it very clear to your sister that you're unhappy with the current situation and that it will change, and you'll be spending more time with her and inviting her to all the stuff you'd invite your other sisters to(and possibly make some extra plans just with her as well). You will be amazed at how easy it is to do things at/with your house when you don't have to consider how your roommate(s) will play into the equation.
sorry if this is a weird rambly answer, it dredged up a lot of weird memories and made me reflect on some current situations going on around me but thankfully now outside my own house. hope it's helpful.
posted by emptythought at 3:58 PM on September 21, 2013 [2 favorites]
first off, you are not acting like an ass. this is a difficult situation for all. i actually feel for both your sister, your roommate and you. i think they probably both need to give a bit. maybe talk to your roommate and see if he'll lighten up a little so she can come occasionally to a (larger) party without her boyfriend. absolutely, don't start not inviting your other sisters. they haven't done anything to deserve that. your sister did screw up badly here though and she needs to realize this is what happens when you hurt people like that. there are consequences to behaviors and she needs to learn that. it has been two years though and she is your young sister, so i think she shouldn't be excluded forever. moving when you next can is probably a good idea so then the whole thing is off your shoulders. your roommate will probably not come to your parties then, so just be sure to reach out to him to maintain the friendship. next time one of your friends wants to date one of your sisters tell them it ain't a good idea.
posted by wildflower at 4:21 PM on September 21, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by wildflower at 4:21 PM on September 21, 2013 [1 favorite]
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I don't think you're being an asshole, but it's definitely not an easy position to be in. It sounds like you have done all the right things. I'd just leave it where it is, be kind and reiterate that you can't invite her to the home you share with her ex because it is his home too, and hang out with her in other places.
posted by deliciae at 3:41 PM on September 20, 2013 [1 favorite]