Crush me once, shame on you. Crush me twice...
June 9, 2013 3:50 PM Subscribe
Fiancee admitted she took a crush too far. Again. Help us get past this.
My fiancée (April) and I have been seeing each other for a year and a half, living together for the past year and engaged for the last six months. A few months before I proposed, one of my friends admitted that she had feelings for me and we fumbled our way into a drunken kiss. Nothing else physically happened between us but I continued to hang out with her one-on-one for a bit afterwards until I told her (via email) that I could no longer see her because the friendship was inappropriate. April was always suspicious of her intentions but I maintained that our friendship was innocent. I never told April about the kiss but she stumbled on the email a short time after I wrote it because she went to use my computer and my email program was already opened.
April was upset about how foolish I made her feel since her instincts were correct about the friendship/crush. She was also deeply hurt about the kiss and the fact that I never told her about it. I know that I acted selfishly and inappropriately; it was never my intent to fool her but that’s definitely what happened. I didn’t admit to her or myself when the friendship turned into a crush.
For the record, she said that she was not snooping for any evidence but she “couldn’t help herself” when she saw who the email was from.
It was rough for us after that but we talked a lot of things over and it seemed like we were in a good place. We got engaged a few short weeks later.
Almost immediately after we got engaged, she started work on an art project that took about two months to complete. She continued communicating with a member of the team for a while after the project had wrapped until I called her out on it. We went back and forth about this for about a month, with her maintaining that nothing was going on even though her behavior had noticeably changed (for example: keeping her phone with her at all times instead of casually leaving it out, as we used to do before her project ended). She eventually did admit that this team member had taken a liking to her, and while she didn’t feel the same way about him, she didn’t do anything to discourage his behavior because she liked the attention. She also said that she “purposely started acting suspicious” because that’s what I used to do when I was dealing with my crush situation and she wanted me to “feel like how she felt”.
More discussions. She still felt resentful about the mess with my friend. I could sense her resentment and withdrew emotionally and physically. This led to a nasty spiral that we had a lot of trouble getting out of. I also called her out on the “acting suspiciously” stuff because I do not want to deal with that game-playing stuff and she agreed that it was childish of her.
All of this was about a month, a month and a half ago. We had a series of long talks and I felt that things were better. We were communicating more, I was starting to feel more affectionate, and so on.
Cut to two weeks ago. April started working at a festival a short drive away and has experienced a wide array of stress related to that. It’s also the longest we’ve been apart since we met. Neither one of us anticipated how hard we would take the time apart.
There are only a few people there that are our age (late-20s) so she’s been hanging out with the handful of folks that are old enough to drink. I sensed that she wasn’t telling me everything about her interactions with one particular person. They seemed to be hanging out a lot but I didn’t say anything to her. However, one night she went to the movies “by herself” and called me immediately after the movie got out but she cut the conversation off after only a few minutes.
Yesterday, I went down for the night to visit. We went out to dinner and retired to our hotel room where I confronted her about the “friendship”. She admitted that she had developed a crush on this guy and had lied about going to the movies alone. She said that nothing physical happened between them but she had crossed “emotional boundaries”.
We spent the night talking. I asked if she wanted to just end things between us or try and figure out what’s going wrong and she wants to keep fighting for us.
She was very upset. I told her that I definitely crossed the line with my crush but that didn’t give her the right to walk the edge as she’s done with these two guys. She clearly has unresolved feelings about what happened with me and I’m ok to do whatever is necessary to work through those with her but I don’t want feel like I’m being continually punished.
She still has three days left until she returns home. Right now I feel angry, upset, hurt and emotionally drained.
As hurt as I am right now, I do want to try and make this work. Things have been quite amazing with her and she is the woman I want to spend the rest of my life with. I’m not sure what to do when she comes back. We clearly need to resolve whatever the core issue is so we can get out of this spiral but I don’t know where to begin. We briefly mentioned couples therapy but I want to avoid that if at all possible. We’ve both had enough therapy for ten lifetimes.
Has anyone else been in a similar resentment/emotional detachment spiral with their partner and what techniques did you do to resolve it? What can we do to rebuild the trust between us? What can I do to avoid putting up emotional barriers when we talk about difficult topics? Any and all advice is appreciated.
My fiancée (April) and I have been seeing each other for a year and a half, living together for the past year and engaged for the last six months. A few months before I proposed, one of my friends admitted that she had feelings for me and we fumbled our way into a drunken kiss. Nothing else physically happened between us but I continued to hang out with her one-on-one for a bit afterwards until I told her (via email) that I could no longer see her because the friendship was inappropriate. April was always suspicious of her intentions but I maintained that our friendship was innocent. I never told April about the kiss but she stumbled on the email a short time after I wrote it because she went to use my computer and my email program was already opened.
April was upset about how foolish I made her feel since her instincts were correct about the friendship/crush. She was also deeply hurt about the kiss and the fact that I never told her about it. I know that I acted selfishly and inappropriately; it was never my intent to fool her but that’s definitely what happened. I didn’t admit to her or myself when the friendship turned into a crush.
For the record, she said that she was not snooping for any evidence but she “couldn’t help herself” when she saw who the email was from.
It was rough for us after that but we talked a lot of things over and it seemed like we were in a good place. We got engaged a few short weeks later.
Almost immediately after we got engaged, she started work on an art project that took about two months to complete. She continued communicating with a member of the team for a while after the project had wrapped until I called her out on it. We went back and forth about this for about a month, with her maintaining that nothing was going on even though her behavior had noticeably changed (for example: keeping her phone with her at all times instead of casually leaving it out, as we used to do before her project ended). She eventually did admit that this team member had taken a liking to her, and while she didn’t feel the same way about him, she didn’t do anything to discourage his behavior because she liked the attention. She also said that she “purposely started acting suspicious” because that’s what I used to do when I was dealing with my crush situation and she wanted me to “feel like how she felt”.
More discussions. She still felt resentful about the mess with my friend. I could sense her resentment and withdrew emotionally and physically. This led to a nasty spiral that we had a lot of trouble getting out of. I also called her out on the “acting suspiciously” stuff because I do not want to deal with that game-playing stuff and she agreed that it was childish of her.
All of this was about a month, a month and a half ago. We had a series of long talks and I felt that things were better. We were communicating more, I was starting to feel more affectionate, and so on.
Cut to two weeks ago. April started working at a festival a short drive away and has experienced a wide array of stress related to that. It’s also the longest we’ve been apart since we met. Neither one of us anticipated how hard we would take the time apart.
There are only a few people there that are our age (late-20s) so she’s been hanging out with the handful of folks that are old enough to drink. I sensed that she wasn’t telling me everything about her interactions with one particular person. They seemed to be hanging out a lot but I didn’t say anything to her. However, one night she went to the movies “by herself” and called me immediately after the movie got out but she cut the conversation off after only a few minutes.
Yesterday, I went down for the night to visit. We went out to dinner and retired to our hotel room where I confronted her about the “friendship”. She admitted that she had developed a crush on this guy and had lied about going to the movies alone. She said that nothing physical happened between them but she had crossed “emotional boundaries”.
We spent the night talking. I asked if she wanted to just end things between us or try and figure out what’s going wrong and she wants to keep fighting for us.
She was very upset. I told her that I definitely crossed the line with my crush but that didn’t give her the right to walk the edge as she’s done with these two guys. She clearly has unresolved feelings about what happened with me and I’m ok to do whatever is necessary to work through those with her but I don’t want feel like I’m being continually punished.
She still has three days left until she returns home. Right now I feel angry, upset, hurt and emotionally drained.
As hurt as I am right now, I do want to try and make this work. Things have been quite amazing with her and she is the woman I want to spend the rest of my life with. I’m not sure what to do when she comes back. We clearly need to resolve whatever the core issue is so we can get out of this spiral but I don’t know where to begin. We briefly mentioned couples therapy but I want to avoid that if at all possible. We’ve both had enough therapy for ten lifetimes.
Has anyone else been in a similar resentment/emotional detachment spiral with their partner and what techniques did you do to resolve it? What can we do to rebuild the trust between us? What can I do to avoid putting up emotional barriers when we talk about difficult topics? Any and all advice is appreciated.
That is a truckload of drama for a year and a half. It sounds like you're not a good fit because you're not bringing out the best in each other, you're bringing out the worst. Especially this early on. But you asked about how to break the cycle, not whether to break up.
The first thing I would suggest is to call off the engagement. You love each other but you are facing repeated crises that are fundamental to a healthy relationship: lack of trust, emotional affairs, unhealthy communication patterns. Calling off the wedding takes the time pressure off so you can deal with the other pressures.
We briefly mentioned couples therapy but I want to avoid that if at all possible. We’ve both had enough therapy for ten lifetimes.
Couples therapy is not the same as individual therapy. Your relationship keeps facing the same problems. It either deserves the hard honest work that effective couples therapy requires, or it doesn't.
posted by headnsouth at 4:04 PM on June 9, 2013 [27 favorites]
The first thing I would suggest is to call off the engagement. You love each other but you are facing repeated crises that are fundamental to a healthy relationship: lack of trust, emotional affairs, unhealthy communication patterns. Calling off the wedding takes the time pressure off so you can deal with the other pressures.
We briefly mentioned couples therapy but I want to avoid that if at all possible. We’ve both had enough therapy for ten lifetimes.
Couples therapy is not the same as individual therapy. Your relationship keeps facing the same problems. It either deserves the hard honest work that effective couples therapy requires, or it doesn't.
posted by headnsouth at 4:04 PM on June 9, 2013 [27 favorites]
If you can each have your head turned by another person, neither of you is ready to be married.
But you don't believe me. Do pre-marital counseling. It specifically addresses the fundamental issues you need to be clear on before you marry.
I'm willing to bet that as much as you love each other, you just aren't ready to marry.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 4:11 PM on June 9, 2013 [13 favorites]
But you don't believe me. Do pre-marital counseling. It specifically addresses the fundamental issues you need to be clear on before you marry.
I'm willing to bet that as much as you love each other, you just aren't ready to marry.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 4:11 PM on June 9, 2013 [13 favorites]
Why the aversion to couples' therapy? It sounds like you two could benefit from it.
And don't get married yet.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 4:18 PM on June 9, 2013 [3 favorites]
And don't get married yet.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 4:18 PM on June 9, 2013 [3 favorites]
She also said that she “purposely started acting suspicious” because that’s what I used to do when I was dealing with my crush situation and she wanted me to “feel like how she felt”.
And this is the woman you want to spend the rest of your life with? Why?
The way to rebuild trust is by acting trustworthy. She is not acting in a trustworthy manner. Instead, she has taken your mistake as carte blanche to make two long-term indiscretions. She will not stop doing this. There have been two other men that you have known about and I bet my bottom dollar there will be a third. You are not ready to be married. Love is not enough.
posted by Tanizaki at 4:21 PM on June 9, 2013 [8 favorites]
And this is the woman you want to spend the rest of your life with? Why?
The way to rebuild trust is by acting trustworthy. She is not acting in a trustworthy manner. Instead, she has taken your mistake as carte blanche to make two long-term indiscretions. She will not stop doing this. There have been two other men that you have known about and I bet my bottom dollar there will be a third. You are not ready to be married. Love is not enough.
posted by Tanizaki at 4:21 PM on June 9, 2013 [8 favorites]
She also said that she “purposely started acting suspicious” because that’s what I used to do when I was dealing with my crush situation and she wanted me to “feel like how she felt”.
Bzzt. Red flag on the play: Basic plausibility failure. Manipulative games-playing even if true. Bad news either way.
Don't get married yet.
posted by ook at 4:21 PM on June 9, 2013 [25 favorites]
Bzzt. Red flag on the play: Basic plausibility failure. Manipulative games-playing even if true. Bad news either way.
Don't get married yet.
posted by ook at 4:21 PM on June 9, 2013 [25 favorites]
You both need to recognize that crushes will happen no matter what. You'll get them and people will get them on you. How you deal with it is telling. Secrecy and manipulation? Bad sign. Laughing about it and recognizing that it happens? Good sign. I'm not sure if you can get from one to the other, but good luck in the attempt.
posted by supercres at 4:25 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by supercres at 4:25 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
If you can't be "don't even notice anybody else exists" faithful in the FIRST year and a half of your relationship, it's not a very good relationship. You've already put a bunch of dings in the structural integrity, dings that will never go away, and the whole thing is going to collapse like a bad bridge the first time you put any actual stress on it. You know, like troubles you haven't actually manufactured yourself: employment problems, illness, family emergencies, natural disasters. Not to mention things like pregnancy/childbirth/child-rearing if you're going that route.
Individual counseling seems more appropriate first, before couple's therapy. At the very least, please don't get married for several years, and be responsible about contraception.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:27 PM on June 9, 2013 [5 favorites]
Individual counseling seems more appropriate first, before couple's therapy. At the very least, please don't get married for several years, and be responsible about contraception.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:27 PM on June 9, 2013 [5 favorites]
Is it possibly she is trying to provoke you to end a relationship that she no longer wants to be in? Because you've made it hard for her to break things off with you by being so apologetic?
posted by musofire at 4:39 PM on June 9, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by musofire at 4:39 PM on June 9, 2013 [4 favorites]
You moved things along too quickly. If you were just dating and these things came up or living together but not engaged, I think you would be more inclined to dump her. Don't compound your mistakes by making new ones. Put whatever existing wedding plans you have on hold. Neither of you are mature enough to get married any time soon.
posted by kat518 at 4:50 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by kat518 at 4:50 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
You guys are both behaving immaturely and inappropriately and it sounds like you are seriously mismatched when it comes to how you solve problems. Sure, you may love each other, but are you really going to be a good fit when both of you have already cheated on one another while you've barely been together for a year and a half? No way.
Nope nope nope. Don't get married. Not yet, not now, not for a while.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 4:50 PM on June 9, 2013 [4 favorites]
Nope nope nope. Don't get married. Not yet, not now, not for a while.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 4:50 PM on June 9, 2013 [4 favorites]
My instincts, as above, are don't get married.
You are not being honest with each other, and you don't trust each other. That has to change. Maybe something that could help it change is to lower the consequences for being honest. Right now you're both ending up in damned-if-you-do damned-if-you-don't choices regarding honesty and disclosure. Maybe you guys can't make monogamy work and legalizing crushes is a way forward (which brings a different bag of problems). Maybe you can make it work, but being open about temptations without creating drama or insecurity would be, instead of having to try to deal with them alone and furtively.
Don't proceed closer to weddings or children until you're both comfortable with how you (as a couple) can take it in stride when the next crushes happen.
posted by anonymisc at 4:51 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
You are not being honest with each other, and you don't trust each other. That has to change. Maybe something that could help it change is to lower the consequences for being honest. Right now you're both ending up in damned-if-you-do damned-if-you-don't choices regarding honesty and disclosure. Maybe you guys can't make monogamy work and legalizing crushes is a way forward (which brings a different bag of problems). Maybe you can make it work, but being open about temptations without creating drama or insecurity would be, instead of having to try to deal with them alone and furtively.
Don't proceed closer to weddings or children until you're both comfortable with how you (as a couple) can take it in stride when the next crushes happen.
posted by anonymisc at 4:51 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
Honestly, there is no quick answer to your question that doesn't involve either couple's therapy and/or breaking up. Either temporarily or permanently.
Sorry, but that's my opinion.
posted by Salamander at 4:52 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
Sorry, but that's my opinion.
posted by Salamander at 4:52 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
You lost the moral highground and it's impossible to get it back. I'm not even getting the sense that you really love her, to be honest. I'm getting more of a "I've decided I want to marry her and she is messing up my plans for my life" weirdly cold and logical vibe from this question. Like you're disappointed in an unruly child or something.
Problem is, she's not really wrong, you both are. I think you probably aren't in love with her anymore and haven't been since the kiss and she's picked up on this and is using you as a backup plan while she looks for an escape hatch. It's pretty much over at that stage.
posted by quincunx at 4:55 PM on June 9, 2013 [5 favorites]
Problem is, she's not really wrong, you both are. I think you probably aren't in love with her anymore and haven't been since the kiss and she's picked up on this and is using you as a backup plan while she looks for an escape hatch. It's pretty much over at that stage.
posted by quincunx at 4:55 PM on June 9, 2013 [5 favorites]
You can't unilaterally make things better. You apologized for the kiss and you said things got better and then you got engaged, but they really didn't get better. She's still holding a grudge.
Just because you've both had a ton of therapy doesn't mean that couples counseling won't be useful. If you want to have any shot at making things better, you both need to communicate and that's just not happening in an effective way right now. She's still "trying to teach you a lesson" which is just as wrong-headed as wrong can be.
Sadly, I think this is the death rattle of your relationship. Neither of you trusts the either.
No matter what, call off the engagement. Do NOT get married.
posted by inturnaround at 4:59 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
Just because you've both had a ton of therapy doesn't mean that couples counseling won't be useful. If you want to have any shot at making things better, you both need to communicate and that's just not happening in an effective way right now. She's still "trying to teach you a lesson" which is just as wrong-headed as wrong can be.
Sadly, I think this is the death rattle of your relationship. Neither of you trusts the either.
No matter what, call off the engagement. Do NOT get married.
posted by inturnaround at 4:59 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
This is not a whole answer, merely a slice of one, but do bear in mind that you're both in a time of life when drama is still relatively interesting. If you can commit to working through your issues (and I do agree that conjoint counseling would be beneficial) there's every likelihood that all this tit-for-tat poking and pinching just to stir up trouble will cease to be an issue by virtue of age and maturity.
I want to believe I'm hearing your higher selves struggling to tear yourselves out of childish behaviors. Of course, for some people, these are personality attributes and not merely a temporary life stage. A therapist could help you sort that out.
posted by janey47 at 5:01 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
I want to believe I'm hearing your higher selves struggling to tear yourselves out of childish behaviors. Of course, for some people, these are personality attributes and not merely a temporary life stage. A therapist could help you sort that out.
posted by janey47 at 5:01 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
I think your best choice is figure out how you will avoid fucking up with the next person, and move on.
Sorry, but it sounds to me like it was over when you got caught kissing your friend and then concealing it.
I doubt you can rebuild trust after mutual games of only-sorta-didn't-quite-cheat on you. If you can, it's going to take a long time.
For god's sake don't get married, not for another full year at least.
posted by mattu at 5:06 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
Sorry, but it sounds to me like it was over when you got caught kissing your friend and then concealing it.
I doubt you can rebuild trust after mutual games of only-sorta-didn't-quite-cheat on you. If you can, it's going to take a long time.
For god's sake don't get married, not for another full year at least.
posted by mattu at 5:06 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
Just walk away. Neither of you are mature enough right now for a lifetime commitment, you're half cheating and lying about it, she's playing manipulative games to get back at you, as a couple you can't communicate honestly, the list goes on. All of this before your relationship ever faces any serious challenges. The thing that they don't tell you is that while love is a good starting point, it's not enough. Both of you need a host of other qualities to make a relationship work, which are glaringly absent from where I'm looking.
The major drawback of fixing your situation from what I can see is that you've only been together a short time. So much crap has gone down already that you never had a chance to build a foundation of trust, where you can say, well, we can get back to that point. That point doesn't really exist for you guys, it seems rotten pretty early on. if you were really committed, you could try therapy (but the fact you're already against it doesn't bode well) but even then I thin this one is too far gone.
One more question; why would either of you want to be a forever relationship where as soon as one person puts a foot wrong, the other goes running off to someone else as retaliation and to make themselves feel better? You'll be watching your back and reading each other's emails for the rest of your life. I couldn't think of anything worse.
posted by Jubey at 5:26 PM on June 9, 2013 [6 favorites]
The major drawback of fixing your situation from what I can see is that you've only been together a short time. So much crap has gone down already that you never had a chance to build a foundation of trust, where you can say, well, we can get back to that point. That point doesn't really exist for you guys, it seems rotten pretty early on. if you were really committed, you could try therapy (but the fact you're already against it doesn't bode well) but even then I thin this one is too far gone.
One more question; why would either of you want to be a forever relationship where as soon as one person puts a foot wrong, the other goes running off to someone else as retaliation and to make themselves feel better? You'll be watching your back and reading each other's emails for the rest of your life. I couldn't think of anything worse.
posted by Jubey at 5:26 PM on June 9, 2013 [6 favorites]
She also said that she “purposely started acting suspicious” because that’s what I used to do when I was dealing with my crush situation and she wanted me to “feel like how she felt”.
The response to this is "and do you feel like you should be punished? No? Neither did I."
I agree with the others. This is too much work. The issue of crushes is tricky, because different couples have different attitudes about it -- none of those include "let me make you feel the way I felt." That's a losing game. The response that can work is "I felt terrible, and I never want you to feel that way." That's a nice piece of moral high ground right there...and even better if its true!
posted by vitabellosi at 5:38 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
The response to this is "and do you feel like you should be punished? No? Neither did I."
I agree with the others. This is too much work. The issue of crushes is tricky, because different couples have different attitudes about it -- none of those include "let me make you feel the way I felt." That's a losing game. The response that can work is "I felt terrible, and I never want you to feel that way." That's a nice piece of moral high ground right there...and even better if its true!
posted by vitabellosi at 5:38 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
Hey. You did a really good job of describing your problem. Very level-headed. You are really aware and this is a great thing. No matter what you decide, I think you stand a good chance of finding the person of your dreams and having a really healthy relationship.
People make mistakes. The best thing to do is not keep score on your loved ones, even if they keep score on you. This is as much about building a relationship with yourself as an adult as it is with others. Write down what you fear. Write down what you resent. All of it. From top to bottom. Fear of being cheated on. Fear of marrying the wrong person. Fear of abandonment. Fear of death. Then ask yourself are you willing to change. Are you willing not to act out of fear. You'll find the answers inside your heart.
Then have a conversation with your fiancee about your feelings. Give her an opportunity to talk about hers. Maybe let her know in advance so that she can be prepared, so that she doesn't feel blind-sided. It is very natural in these situations to have a conversation that goes "you did this.." followed by "well you did this..!" and it's official, you both have ammunition, and you will soon find yourselves talking past each other. Try to avoid this at all costs. Start sentences with "I feel." This can cause people to react strongly and negatively sometimes, so be prepared to stand your ground without getting upset or overreacting. Just remember people have a lot of guilt and sometimes don't know how to process it.
I also like to say, "just because you see a lot of red flags doesn't mean a parade's coming." I know we are all afraid of being hurt, but set aside your intuitions. If a person is going to cheat on you, they will do so whether you intuit it or not. Try not to study your fiancee's behaviors even if she does it to you. Try not to sabotage the relationship even if she chooses to do so. If you think she isn't going to change, or doesn't want to be an emotional equal with you in a relationship (two whole people, not two broken people) then just move on. Because in that case "working it out" is really code for "sitting in an awful relationship that I'm afraid to leave because I don't want to be alone."
posted by phaedon at 5:41 PM on June 9, 2013 [7 favorites]
People make mistakes. The best thing to do is not keep score on your loved ones, even if they keep score on you. This is as much about building a relationship with yourself as an adult as it is with others. Write down what you fear. Write down what you resent. All of it. From top to bottom. Fear of being cheated on. Fear of marrying the wrong person. Fear of abandonment. Fear of death. Then ask yourself are you willing to change. Are you willing not to act out of fear. You'll find the answers inside your heart.
Then have a conversation with your fiancee about your feelings. Give her an opportunity to talk about hers. Maybe let her know in advance so that she can be prepared, so that she doesn't feel blind-sided. It is very natural in these situations to have a conversation that goes "you did this.." followed by "well you did this..!" and it's official, you both have ammunition, and you will soon find yourselves talking past each other. Try to avoid this at all costs. Start sentences with "I feel." This can cause people to react strongly and negatively sometimes, so be prepared to stand your ground without getting upset or overreacting. Just remember people have a lot of guilt and sometimes don't know how to process it.
I also like to say, "just because you see a lot of red flags doesn't mean a parade's coming." I know we are all afraid of being hurt, but set aside your intuitions. If a person is going to cheat on you, they will do so whether you intuit it or not. Try not to study your fiancee's behaviors even if she does it to you. Try not to sabotage the relationship even if she chooses to do so. If you think she isn't going to change, or doesn't want to be an emotional equal with you in a relationship (two whole people, not two broken people) then just move on. Because in that case "working it out" is really code for "sitting in an awful relationship that I'm afraid to leave because I don't want to be alone."
posted by phaedon at 5:41 PM on June 9, 2013 [7 favorites]
You seem to be assuming she's developing those crushes to get back at you. That may not be a correct assumption, which would mean there are deeper issues.
posted by Dansaman at 5:52 PM on June 9, 2013
posted by Dansaman at 5:52 PM on June 9, 2013
She also said that she “purposely started acting suspicious” because that’s what I used to do when I was dealing with my crush situation and she wanted me to “feel like how she felt”.
What you did was really bad and you she had every right to be mad at you. But what she's doing here is actually more destructive to the relationship than one kiss. She hasn't forgiven you, and she's willing to not just retaliate, but escalate, out of revenge.
That's a very bad sign and you guys should wait to get married. Right off the bat, because of your history, both of you have to promise not to do anything that might just look suspicious, because you're hurting each other. If you two can't agree to that and stick to it, don't even bother with counseling. If you can, than do the couples counseling before you marry.
posted by spaltavian at 6:03 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
What you did was really bad and you she had every right to be mad at you. But what she's doing here is actually more destructive to the relationship than one kiss. She hasn't forgiven you, and she's willing to not just retaliate, but escalate, out of revenge.
That's a very bad sign and you guys should wait to get married. Right off the bat, because of your history, both of you have to promise not to do anything that might just look suspicious, because you're hurting each other. If you two can't agree to that and stick to it, don't even bother with counseling. If you can, than do the couples counseling before you marry.
posted by spaltavian at 6:03 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
Here's how I'm reading this.
1) You let feelings get too far, put yourself in an situation that did not protect your relationship by getting drunk with that crush, and kissing. All of those are big no-no's but you already know that. You fessed up, apologized, and tried to work on it.
However, have you ever had the conversation about, "What constitutes cheating and what is a deal-breaker?"
I see that you wanted to work through it, but she still harbors resentment. If you don't have an answer to the above question, then you don't clearly know if it is actually something you can work through or not. She may really see it as a deal breaker but is trying to not let those feelings come out.
2) The golden rule is do unto others as you would have done unto you. The golden rule is NOT "if someone treats you badly you get to treat them the same way and then some so they get a taste of their own medicine."
Again, what you did was bad, but then she clearly did the first instance ON PURPOSE and told you so. That is not okay. Then it gets even more not okay when she lets it happen a second time.
So it's like you broke her phone, then she broke two of your phones in return. If you had a friend whose phone you broke (the "phone" is trust) and then they did the same thing to you twice, you probably wouldn't be their friend.
--
Therefore, I really agree with everyone here. You both did wrong, but you at least were willing to work on it, she then turned around and stabbed you twice. Neither is okay, but one of those actions certainly doesn't show the ability to forgive and move forward.
I would suggest separating. Move out. See how things go. Go to therapy.
I don't think you can have a clear headed discussion in this situation when you have to come home to each other and have the pressure of an eventual wedding. I also think your relationship is pretty fresh and it doesn't sound like you have had the discussions about trust and boundaries that you need to have.
posted by Crystalinne at 6:18 PM on June 9, 2013
1) You let feelings get too far, put yourself in an situation that did not protect your relationship by getting drunk with that crush, and kissing. All of those are big no-no's but you already know that. You fessed up, apologized, and tried to work on it.
However, have you ever had the conversation about, "What constitutes cheating and what is a deal-breaker?"
I see that you wanted to work through it, but she still harbors resentment. If you don't have an answer to the above question, then you don't clearly know if it is actually something you can work through or not. She may really see it as a deal breaker but is trying to not let those feelings come out.
2) The golden rule is do unto others as you would have done unto you. The golden rule is NOT "if someone treats you badly you get to treat them the same way and then some so they get a taste of their own medicine."
Again, what you did was bad, but then she clearly did the first instance ON PURPOSE and told you so. That is not okay. Then it gets even more not okay when she lets it happen a second time.
So it's like you broke her phone, then she broke two of your phones in return. If you had a friend whose phone you broke (the "phone" is trust) and then they did the same thing to you twice, you probably wouldn't be their friend.
--
Therefore, I really agree with everyone here. You both did wrong, but you at least were willing to work on it, she then turned around and stabbed you twice. Neither is okay, but one of those actions certainly doesn't show the ability to forgive and move forward.
I would suggest separating. Move out. See how things go. Go to therapy.
I don't think you can have a clear headed discussion in this situation when you have to come home to each other and have the pressure of an eventual wedding. I also think your relationship is pretty fresh and it doesn't sound like you have had the discussions about trust and boundaries that you need to have.
posted by Crystalinne at 6:18 PM on June 9, 2013
Your question paints a picture of two nice young people no where near ready for marriage.
Enlisting metafilter as a quick replacement for the slow process of maturing isn't a good strategy.
In a few years or ten, maybe the right responses will instantly come to you, and maybe you'll make good choices about mates and such. OTOH, maybe what you want now is someone to fumble around with the sharp knives of a legally binding crisis for a while and this is your chosen path to growth. It's up to you and that's fine if it's what you want or are happy addressing as it happens. To each his/her own.
On the surface, you sound a tad unprepared and so does your squeeze. It's tough, bud. Especially if you covet monogamy and are the jealous types.
posted by FauxScot at 6:18 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
Enlisting metafilter as a quick replacement for the slow process of maturing isn't a good strategy.
In a few years or ten, maybe the right responses will instantly come to you, and maybe you'll make good choices about mates and such. OTOH, maybe what you want now is someone to fumble around with the sharp knives of a legally binding crisis for a while and this is your chosen path to growth. It's up to you and that's fine if it's what you want or are happy addressing as it happens. To each his/her own.
On the surface, you sound a tad unprepared and so does your squeeze. It's tough, bud. Especially if you covet monogamy and are the jealous types.
posted by FauxScot at 6:18 PM on June 9, 2013 [1 favorite]
People get crushes. Even people in good marriages. Biology.
What is important is what you do with that. My recommendation is you have the kind of relationship where you can tell your partner, and then act appropriately. If you can't act appropriately, maybe marriage isn't a good idea. But yes, this can be worked through.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 6:47 PM on June 9, 2013
What is important is what you do with that. My recommendation is you have the kind of relationship where you can tell your partner, and then act appropriately. If you can't act appropriately, maybe marriage isn't a good idea. But yes, this can be worked through.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 6:47 PM on June 9, 2013
I will tell you a brief story and you can make of it what you will.
I was dating someone, and it was amazing. But things started to go wrong. Normal, everyday life stresses began to reveal our incompatibilities, which led to arguments, even over stupid stuff. (Like, until it actually happened, I would not have believed that mentioning a "What Would Joan Jett Do" bracelet could lead to a relationship-on-the-brink argument; but that's another story in and of itself...)
The nagging sense that we may not be as compatible as we first thought led to emotional distancing and barriers going up. But, hey, we're in love, right? So we stick it out. Only problem is, since that first big fight, things have changed. And the fucked up thing is that when the good turns to bad, it can make you want even more intensely to get the good back; and that can mess with your better judgment.
Weeks go by. We try, in good faith, to work things out. But she becomes more distant, which makes me feel progressively worse. Things come to a head one Saturday night at a restaurant. As we walk back to the car, I finally just ask if she wants out. She says no. I look in her eyes and I am not convinced. But I take her at her word. After all, I don't want it to be over either. Ultimately, it would take another few months for us to come to the end.
The only thing I regret is this: I took her at her word when I needed to be paying more attention to her actions. It's not even that she was not telling the truth; I believe she really meant what she said. But how she acted toward me told a different story.
posted by fikri at 6:56 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
I was dating someone, and it was amazing. But things started to go wrong. Normal, everyday life stresses began to reveal our incompatibilities, which led to arguments, even over stupid stuff. (Like, until it actually happened, I would not have believed that mentioning a "What Would Joan Jett Do" bracelet could lead to a relationship-on-the-brink argument; but that's another story in and of itself...)
The nagging sense that we may not be as compatible as we first thought led to emotional distancing and barriers going up. But, hey, we're in love, right? So we stick it out. Only problem is, since that first big fight, things have changed. And the fucked up thing is that when the good turns to bad, it can make you want even more intensely to get the good back; and that can mess with your better judgment.
Weeks go by. We try, in good faith, to work things out. But she becomes more distant, which makes me feel progressively worse. Things come to a head one Saturday night at a restaurant. As we walk back to the car, I finally just ask if she wants out. She says no. I look in her eyes and I am not convinced. But I take her at her word. After all, I don't want it to be over either. Ultimately, it would take another few months for us to come to the end.
The only thing I regret is this: I took her at her word when I needed to be paying more attention to her actions. It's not even that she was not telling the truth; I believe she really meant what she said. But how she acted toward me told a different story.
posted by fikri at 6:56 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
Please don't marry this person.
posted by Kwine at 7:18 PM on June 9, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Kwine at 7:18 PM on June 9, 2013 [3 favorites]
You want to figure out how to heal your relationship but have not succeeded in doing so on your own. This is what couples' therapy is for.
posted by medusa at 7:53 PM on June 9, 2013
posted by medusa at 7:53 PM on June 9, 2013
Add me to the chorus of do not marry at this time. If there is one thing that I have seen destroy marriages it is the act of keeping score. Keeping score quickly leads to competition against one another rather than cooperation with each other. Once you are no longer "us against the world" and are instead "me against you" the relationship is gone. You will probably save yourselves both pain if you end this now. I suspect you know this but needed to hear it from an outside source. Consider it spoken.
posted by The Violet Cypher at 8:25 PM on June 9, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by The Violet Cypher at 8:25 PM on June 9, 2013 [3 favorites]
You two are sooo not ready for marriage.
You really desperately need couples therapy and a minimum of eight months without the dramaz game. Stop lying to each other and learn to communicate. I'm guessing that you two have never sat down to have serious talks about expectations--including the nitty-gritty details on finances, children, roles, etc. You really need to have a serious discussion on what commitment means. If you do reach consensus, at that point, premarital counseling.
Frankly, I was quite surprised when you mentioned you were in your late-20s. This much drama, lying, game playing, and shenanigans made me think you were much younger. You can wait a while and get your act together, or you can gain maturity through a bitter divorce.
I wish you well.
Good luck, you're going to need it.
posted by BlueHorse at 9:56 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
You really desperately need couples therapy and a minimum of eight months without the dramaz game. Stop lying to each other and learn to communicate. I'm guessing that you two have never sat down to have serious talks about expectations--including the nitty-gritty details on finances, children, roles, etc. You really need to have a serious discussion on what commitment means. If you do reach consensus, at that point, premarital counseling.
Frankly, I was quite surprised when you mentioned you were in your late-20s. This much drama, lying, game playing, and shenanigans made me think you were much younger. You can wait a while and get your act together, or you can gain maturity through a bitter divorce.
I wish you well.
Good luck, you're going to need it.
posted by BlueHorse at 9:56 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
She clearly has unresolved feelings about what happened with me
To clarify my answer above, I don't think she's really cheating on you to "get back at you". I think she's just plain cheating on you. She's using your cheating on her to justify it (to herself and to you) when she gets caught. Twice. So far. To claim that this is the result of "unresolved feelings" about you one time kissing another girl is super implausible.
If she was cheating just to get back at you, that'd be much much worse, of course. I don't really want to imagine the level of vindictiveness (not to mention callousness towards her other boyfriends' feelings) that that would require. But I don't think that's really the case; I think she's just using it as a convenient excuse.
I know we're not really answering the question you wanted answered -- but this feels like "the house is on fire, what color should we paint the upstairs bedroom to make it feel cooler in here?"
posted by ook at 11:28 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
To clarify my answer above, I don't think she's really cheating on you to "get back at you". I think she's just plain cheating on you. She's using your cheating on her to justify it (to herself and to you) when she gets caught. Twice. So far. To claim that this is the result of "unresolved feelings" about you one time kissing another girl is super implausible.
If she was cheating just to get back at you, that'd be much much worse, of course. I don't really want to imagine the level of vindictiveness (not to mention callousness towards her other boyfriends' feelings) that that would require. But I don't think that's really the case; I think she's just using it as a convenient excuse.
I know we're not really answering the question you wanted answered -- but this feels like "the house is on fire, what color should we paint the upstairs bedroom to make it feel cooler in here?"
posted by ook at 11:28 PM on June 9, 2013 [2 favorites]
for example: keeping her phone with her at all times instead of casually leaving it out, as we used to do before her project ended
If you notice these sorts of things then perhaps you shouldn't be thinking of spending the rest of your life with this person.
posted by mattoxic at 1:57 AM on June 10, 2013 [3 favorites]
If you notice these sorts of things then perhaps you shouldn't be thinking of spending the rest of your life with this person.
posted by mattoxic at 1:57 AM on June 10, 2013 [3 favorites]
We briefly mentioned couples therapy but I want to avoid that if at all possible. We’ve both had enough therapy for ten lifetimes.
I read this as "I'm not invested enough to do everything I can to save this relationship."
Look, marriage is long, and marriage is often hard. When you get married, you're making a lifelong commitment, even knowing there's only a 50% chance you'll make it through a lifetime with your spouse. If you're not prepared to do everything possible to honour that commitment, why both to make it in the first place?
You guys have an unresolved issue. It's recurring. You've been unable to remove this obstacle despite previous attempts and high stakes. You've been dishonest with one another. You probably don't want to enter marriage like this, and should probably seek some outside help to resolve your issues before making a really painful and expensive mistake.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:34 AM on June 10, 2013 [3 favorites]
I read this as "I'm not invested enough to do everything I can to save this relationship."
Look, marriage is long, and marriage is often hard. When you get married, you're making a lifelong commitment, even knowing there's only a 50% chance you'll make it through a lifetime with your spouse. If you're not prepared to do everything possible to honour that commitment, why both to make it in the first place?
You guys have an unresolved issue. It's recurring. You've been unable to remove this obstacle despite previous attempts and high stakes. You've been dishonest with one another. You probably don't want to enter marriage like this, and should probably seek some outside help to resolve your issues before making a really painful and expensive mistake.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:34 AM on June 10, 2013 [3 favorites]
This makes me think of the iterated Prisoner's Dilemma: "If two players play prisoners' dilemma more than once in succession and they remember previous actions of their opponent and change their strategy accordingly, the game is called iterated prisoners' dilemma." The optimal strategy is to cooperate on the first iteration of the game; after that, the player does what his or her opponent did on the previous move. Depending on the situation, a slightly better strategy can be "tit for tat with forgiveness."
In the beginning, initial scenario, she kept faith, and you betrayed her.
In the next scenario, she broke faith and you also broke faith. (She acted suspicious by keeping her phone with her, etc - replicating what you did - and you responded by calling her on it and having fights, not by trusting her.)
In the next scenario, she broke faith again, and you.... what?
The optimal strategy might, counterintuitively as it seems, be to forgive her and give her your perfect trust. And see how she responds - if she opens up to that and behaves in a trusting fashion, you guys can have a chance to heal your relationship.
Now, you might say that game theory should not be present in an intimate relationship: but the fact is these are things that everyone does. Everyone has a strategy, whether they know it or not, and it can be helpful to figure out how yours works.
posted by corb at 6:01 AM on June 10, 2013
In the beginning, initial scenario, she kept faith, and you betrayed her.
In the next scenario, she broke faith and you also broke faith. (She acted suspicious by keeping her phone with her, etc - replicating what you did - and you responded by calling her on it and having fights, not by trusting her.)
In the next scenario, she broke faith again, and you.... what?
The optimal strategy might, counterintuitively as it seems, be to forgive her and give her your perfect trust. And see how she responds - if she opens up to that and behaves in a trusting fashion, you guys can have a chance to heal your relationship.
Now, you might say that game theory should not be present in an intimate relationship: but the fact is these are things that everyone does. Everyone has a strategy, whether they know it or not, and it can be helpful to figure out how yours works.
posted by corb at 6:01 AM on June 10, 2013
DO. NOT. MARRY. THIS. PERSON.
your opening mini paragraph alone is a fabric store that only sells red flags.
you don't trust each other, you don't. You may say you do, because that's what people say, but your actions show this to be a lie.
Everybody has crushes but they don't lie about them, hide them, act on them, excuse them away, cover them up and lie about them more.
I don't expect you to listen to me because you are engaged and generally people carry on with engagements because the don't want to admit that they "failed" at stepping through the normal adulthood check points. Instead they get divorced. Which seems like trading a pence for a pound to me but I understand why most people do it.
My hope is that you are not most people and take the the moderate puncture now over the amputation in your early 30's.
posted by French Fry at 8:16 AM on June 10, 2013 [5 favorites]
your opening mini paragraph alone is a fabric store that only sells red flags.
you don't trust each other, you don't. You may say you do, because that's what people say, but your actions show this to be a lie.
Everybody has crushes but they don't lie about them, hide them, act on them, excuse them away, cover them up and lie about them more.
I don't expect you to listen to me because you are engaged and generally people carry on with engagements because the don't want to admit that they "failed" at stepping through the normal adulthood check points. Instead they get divorced. Which seems like trading a pence for a pound to me but I understand why most people do it.
My hope is that you are not most people and take the the moderate puncture now over the amputation in your early 30's.
posted by French Fry at 8:16 AM on June 10, 2013 [5 favorites]
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Acting suspiciously in order to make you feel how she felt shows she is not over feeling betrayed by you. The second guy shows that she is really not over that feeling. Which is not to say what she did is ok, but your indiscretion opened the door and whatever the fallout from that first instance, she hasn't gotten over it. Now neither are you.
Seek couples therapy. Seriously. Talk it out. Lack of trust needs to be rebuilt by allowing the "wronged" partner to express why/how they felt betrayed and have that feeling validated before they can move on.
My two cents that is not a direct answer to your question is that you probably should not get married. 1.5 years is not a long time if the last 9 months have been full of drama and trust is gone. Half of your time together has not been solid. That is not a good sign.
posted by mooza at 4:03 PM on June 9, 2013 [9 favorites]