How can I benefit from a therapist who doesn't seem very smart?
May 10, 2013 5:22 PM Subscribe
I've been struggling with mild depression for a long time. I think therapy is probably a good idea for someone like me, but I've been unable to find a therapist I really respect. I've tried seven different therapists (one I stuck with for a couple years), but none have seemed very insightful or helpful. I'm feeling like I should try again (my wife definitely wants me to). Do I just have to be willing to try a dozen therapists until I find the "right" one? (That seems really daunting.) Or is there maybe some way I can better benefit from a therapist who doesn't seem very insightful?
It's not that I'm a skeptic about therapists. I have a lot of respect for John Gottman's research and writing about marriage (his book has been very helpful to my wife and me in our marriage). I can be kind of arrogant about thinking I'm smarter than other people, but I've certainly met plenty of people who are smarter and wiser than I am, people I respect. But none of them are therapists. I live in a small town outside of a small city. There's not a whole lot of highly-educated people, so I think that kind of reduces my options.
I'm mostly functional. I hold down a job (although I don't do it nearly as well as I ought to). I exercise regularly. I often feel happy and enjoy things in life. I stay up too late and don't get enough sleep. I spend too much time by myself playing video games and internet surfing, even though I'm much happier when I'm doing things with other people. I have a hard time caring about anything or identifying things in life that are worthwhile, particularly planning for the future. I'm kind of isolated -- we've moved across country to a small town and while I've made some pretty good friends, I don't really have roots here and most of my friends are too busy to spend time with frequently and regularly. I've tried four medications, with results ranging from barely discernible improvement to making things much worse.
It's not that I'm a skeptic about therapists. I have a lot of respect for John Gottman's research and writing about marriage (his book has been very helpful to my wife and me in our marriage). I can be kind of arrogant about thinking I'm smarter than other people, but I've certainly met plenty of people who are smarter and wiser than I am, people I respect. But none of them are therapists. I live in a small town outside of a small city. There's not a whole lot of highly-educated people, so I think that kind of reduces my options.
I'm mostly functional. I hold down a job (although I don't do it nearly as well as I ought to). I exercise regularly. I often feel happy and enjoy things in life. I stay up too late and don't get enough sleep. I spend too much time by myself playing video games and internet surfing, even though I'm much happier when I'm doing things with other people. I have a hard time caring about anything or identifying things in life that are worthwhile, particularly planning for the future. I'm kind of isolated -- we've moved across country to a small town and while I've made some pretty good friends, I don't really have roots here and most of my friends are too busy to spend time with frequently and regularly. I've tried four medications, with results ranging from barely discernible improvement to making things much worse.
A few thoughts come to mind:
- Yes you do have to shop around for therapists, different ones can vary widely in effectiveness for a given person
- with respect, if you already have tried 7 different therapists then perhaps you should seriously consider if the problem does not lie with the therapists? Your Askme seems to indicate that you engage in self-defeating (destructive? ) behaviors - perhaps not sticking with a given therapist is a part of that behavior?
posted by Podkayne of Pasadena at 5:36 PM on May 10, 2013 [7 favorites]
- Yes you do have to shop around for therapists, different ones can vary widely in effectiveness for a given person
- with respect, if you already have tried 7 different therapists then perhaps you should seriously consider if the problem does not lie with the therapists? Your Askme seems to indicate that you engage in self-defeating (destructive? ) behaviors - perhaps not sticking with a given therapist is a part of that behavior?
posted by Podkayne of Pasadena at 5:36 PM on May 10, 2013 [7 favorites]
Mmm, it's not that a therapist needs to be smarter or wiser than you, it's that they should be better than you at putting you in a place where you, yourself, can examine your own life and the things you want to change, and get you to both see them and eventually see your way through them.
Just like a baseball coach might not be a genius or the Buddha, yet still be good at coaching, it is simply necessary that a therapist know how to perform therapy. They may in fact be wiser than you about certain behaviors and how to get through them, and perhaps they could just tell you "you should stop doing X and do Y instead," but it's a stronger solution if they can get you focused on X and talking about X and reflecting on X and how you might get incrementally from X to X' (which might lead to X'' which might in turn lead to Y).
Don't let your being smarter than someone prevent you from respecting them or working with them. Therapy is more about having someone as a sounding board and a coach, than it is about someone figuring you out for you and telling you what to do.
posted by zippy at 5:55 PM on May 10, 2013 [9 favorites]
Just like a baseball coach might not be a genius or the Buddha, yet still be good at coaching, it is simply necessary that a therapist know how to perform therapy. They may in fact be wiser than you about certain behaviors and how to get through them, and perhaps they could just tell you "you should stop doing X and do Y instead," but it's a stronger solution if they can get you focused on X and talking about X and reflecting on X and how you might get incrementally from X to X' (which might lead to X'' which might in turn lead to Y).
Don't let your being smarter than someone prevent you from respecting them or working with them. Therapy is more about having someone as a sounding board and a coach, than it is about someone figuring you out for you and telling you what to do.
posted by zippy at 5:55 PM on May 10, 2013 [9 favorites]
Hmmm, I've seen a lot of therapists over the years too. More than 7 I think, if I include couples counselors. I've never really clicked with one until recently, and the deciding factor I think was not the therapist, but me.
Like you, I don't think I"m the smartest person ever, but I do tend to assume I am a better critical thinker than your average Joe. Maybe not like you or maybe like you, I tend to think I'm somehow different from other people. A special snowflake if you will. The idea that an average person, which of course most people, including most therapists, are, could "get" me, just never sunk in.
For a variety of reasons, the last few years I've been able to see a lot more of the ways that other people are really unique individuals with many kinds of intelligence that I can learn from, and that I am not as special and snowflakey as I thought I was. There wasn't some special secret to this discovery: maybe mostly just aging and maturity, having some humbling losses in life, but also taking up a meditation practice and really intentionally trying to be curious and open about other people instead of making assumptions about them.
This change in me made me much more open the last time I started seeing a new therapist, and I think allowed me to see them as more insightful and wise than I would have before.
Psychotherapy alone won't solve everything of course. If you like Gottman, it sounds like you'd like research-based therapy modalities. So maybe Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is for you? Trying a different style of therapy might do the trick.
Best of luck.
posted by latkes at 5:59 PM on May 10, 2013 [7 favorites]
Like you, I don't think I"m the smartest person ever, but I do tend to assume I am a better critical thinker than your average Joe. Maybe not like you or maybe like you, I tend to think I'm somehow different from other people. A special snowflake if you will. The idea that an average person, which of course most people, including most therapists, are, could "get" me, just never sunk in.
For a variety of reasons, the last few years I've been able to see a lot more of the ways that other people are really unique individuals with many kinds of intelligence that I can learn from, and that I am not as special and snowflakey as I thought I was. There wasn't some special secret to this discovery: maybe mostly just aging and maturity, having some humbling losses in life, but also taking up a meditation practice and really intentionally trying to be curious and open about other people instead of making assumptions about them.
This change in me made me much more open the last time I started seeing a new therapist, and I think allowed me to see them as more insightful and wise than I would have before.
Psychotherapy alone won't solve everything of course. If you like Gottman, it sounds like you'd like research-based therapy modalities. So maybe Cognitive Behavioral Therapy is for you? Trying a different style of therapy might do the trick.
Best of luck.
posted by latkes at 5:59 PM on May 10, 2013 [7 favorites]
I have had this problem too. Most of the time, I feel like therapists are just reading from a book about CBT -- a book I've already read -- and mouthing stuff instead of thinking about it and giving me wise answers. Others on here will say you're being elitist or whatever, but I think it's important to find someone you can relate to. Poly, Christian, super smart, family values, New Age-y, logical, whatever.
My suggestion is to find a therapist who is demonstrably super smart from their success in another field. A friend of mine goes to a guy who has a PhD in electrical engineering and then did an MSW as a second career. I once saw a life coach who was an extremely successful technology executive and was doing coaching for fun as a second career (not to make money, as she had retired at 30). Another friend sees a guy who has a Harvard Law degree but hated the legal field so got a degree in social work. A psychiatrist who prefers talk therapy to meds will at least have gone through medical school and all the vetting that implies.
So they're out there. Maybe not in your town. Maybe widen your net and consider doing a phone consultation with someone outside your area?
posted by 3491again at 6:03 PM on May 10, 2013 [5 favorites]
My suggestion is to find a therapist who is demonstrably super smart from their success in another field. A friend of mine goes to a guy who has a PhD in electrical engineering and then did an MSW as a second career. I once saw a life coach who was an extremely successful technology executive and was doing coaching for fun as a second career (not to make money, as she had retired at 30). Another friend sees a guy who has a Harvard Law degree but hated the legal field so got a degree in social work. A psychiatrist who prefers talk therapy to meds will at least have gone through medical school and all the vetting that implies.
So they're out there. Maybe not in your town. Maybe widen your net and consider doing a phone consultation with someone outside your area?
posted by 3491again at 6:03 PM on May 10, 2013 [5 favorites]
It might help to think of therapy not as going to someone smarter than you to seek sage advice, but rather going to a professional trained in a discipline that you a) do not have training in, and b) could not practice on yourself even if you had the training.
It also helps to have goals for what you hope to get out of therapy (e.g., I want to develop better strategies for coping with negative thoughts). Depending on your goals, something like CBT might be a good fit.
posted by Meg_Murry at 6:06 PM on May 10, 2013 [4 favorites]
It also helps to have goals for what you hope to get out of therapy (e.g., I want to develop better strategies for coping with negative thoughts). Depending on your goals, something like CBT might be a good fit.
posted by Meg_Murry at 6:06 PM on May 10, 2013 [4 favorites]
I have one rule for therapy: your therapist needs to be smarter than you.
If she/he is not... you are jerking off and likely just fucking around.
Shop around, find someone good and get challenged. This thing (life, existence, consciousness), goes much higher than you think and even though you are smart, others got there first and paved the way.
posted by bobdow at 6:21 PM on May 10, 2013 [11 favorites]
If she/he is not... you are jerking off and likely just fucking around.
Shop around, find someone good and get challenged. This thing (life, existence, consciousness), goes much higher than you think and even though you are smart, others got there first and paved the way.
posted by bobdow at 6:21 PM on May 10, 2013 [11 favorites]
I feel your pain! I've seen a half-dozen therapists over the years for various things: none was as smart as me, and only one was (mildly) helpful. Honestly that didn't surprise me very much: the average person is average, and there's no reason to expect therapists as a profession to be any more motivated or intelligent or effective than people in any other job.
And, I was in big cities. I am sure you're right that in a small town your options are even more limited.
I don't have any great advice for you: I'm sorry. I do wonder if it's possible for you to identify someone whose writing on therapy issues you respect, and see if they will make you a referral. (I wrote Irving Yalom once and he wrote me back, as did Simon Baron-Cohen: I was kind of surprised.) If I were you I'd be location-agnostic and just use Skype: I think getting someone really good is more important than the benefits of being face-to-face.
Don't give up though and don't settle --- find someone you like. A poor therapy relationship is just such a waste.
posted by Susan PG at 6:37 PM on May 10, 2013
And, I was in big cities. I am sure you're right that in a small town your options are even more limited.
I don't have any great advice for you: I'm sorry. I do wonder if it's possible for you to identify someone whose writing on therapy issues you respect, and see if they will make you a referral. (I wrote Irving Yalom once and he wrote me back, as did Simon Baron-Cohen: I was kind of surprised.) If I were you I'd be location-agnostic and just use Skype: I think getting someone really good is more important than the benefits of being face-to-face.
Don't give up though and don't settle --- find someone you like. A poor therapy relationship is just such a waste.
posted by Susan PG at 6:37 PM on May 10, 2013
Many people who think of themselves as smart also think that there's only one way to be smart. Consider for a moment the possibility that there is more than one way to be smart. For instance, although you consider yourself to be smart, you also admit to being frankly kind of a mess. Imagine for a moment that your therapist may not be smart in the way you are, but that person is also not a mess the way that you are and they may have some insight that you don't have in how to not be a mess.
posted by hydropsyche at 6:48 PM on May 10, 2013 [16 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 6:48 PM on May 10, 2013 [16 favorites]
Not to discount what you may be going through, but this sounds less like depression and more like shyness/introversion, for which therapy isn't necessary (though it may be desirable). In particular, not caring/planning is a typical Myers-Briggs INTP trait (as is a certain hauteur about other people's intelligence). In short, this may just be who you are! (Signed, a self-accepting INTP.)
PS I have been so depressed once in my life that I considered medication. This doesn't sound like that.
posted by seemoreglass at 7:07 PM on May 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
PS I have been so depressed once in my life that I considered medication. This doesn't sound like that.
posted by seemoreglass at 7:07 PM on May 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
I struggled with low-level depression for a long time too. It had its peak moments, but somehow even in the midst of them, when I contemplated therapy, I thought "But no one else can ever know what's going on in my head as well as I can, and if I can't figure it out, what hope have they got? It's a waste of time." There was a certain amount of hubris here, and at least part of it was related to extreme skepticism that anyone else could be smarter than me about me. I also had a lot of resistance to counsellors/therapists due to childhood experiences, which didn't help.
Then various things in my life all stacked up against me. I struggled on as usual and finally realised that I was close to breaking point and needed any assistance I could find in order to even cope. I was lucky and the first counsellor I could actually see "clicked" with me, though I did try to choose someone whom I thought would be good to begin with. Sometimes I wasn't sure she was smarter than me; sometimes I felt like I didn't quite get what she was saying or she didn't quite get what I was saying; sometimes I wasn't sure where it was all going; sometimes I wasn't sure exactly what I was getting out of it.
But there were also the times when she said something that revealed a completely different perspective, something I genuinely had never considered, that left me gobsmacked. There was her ability to ignore all those pesky saplings everywhere and see the forest they added up to. There were the blunt reality checks, cutting through all my cleverly-constructed bullshit. (That's the thing about being smart, you can fool yourself really really convincingly.) Anyway, fast forward 7 years and I'm still seeing her from time to time (there was a big gap in there where we didn't have sessions) and she still gives me a lot to think about. Is she smarter than me? I don't know. Does it matter? Not at all.
I don't think it's about intelligence, no matter how important that is to you. I think it is about you and whether or not you are ready to take the journey. You might think you are, but something in your post makes me wonder if you're not, or are somehow resistant. I don't mean this to sound like I'm blaming you, depression is like that. Inertia is much much easier than actually doing anything, especially when you don't have much energy to do anything differently. And depression also leaches away that hope or faith that anything will make a difference.
For me, it took dramatic, catalysing changes in my life that completely turned it upside down (some would say "ruined" but as miserable as it was, I'm actually glad it happened) in order to make me change, because I am just that stubborn and just that good at convincing myself of things. For you, maybe it doesn't have to be so drama-laden. Maybe find someone you enjoy talking to and see how it goes. Persist. It's worth a shot.
posted by Athanassiel at 7:09 PM on May 10, 2013 [3 favorites]
Then various things in my life all stacked up against me. I struggled on as usual and finally realised that I was close to breaking point and needed any assistance I could find in order to even cope. I was lucky and the first counsellor I could actually see "clicked" with me, though I did try to choose someone whom I thought would be good to begin with. Sometimes I wasn't sure she was smarter than me; sometimes I felt like I didn't quite get what she was saying or she didn't quite get what I was saying; sometimes I wasn't sure where it was all going; sometimes I wasn't sure exactly what I was getting out of it.
But there were also the times when she said something that revealed a completely different perspective, something I genuinely had never considered, that left me gobsmacked. There was her ability to ignore all those pesky saplings everywhere and see the forest they added up to. There were the blunt reality checks, cutting through all my cleverly-constructed bullshit. (That's the thing about being smart, you can fool yourself really really convincingly.) Anyway, fast forward 7 years and I'm still seeing her from time to time (there was a big gap in there where we didn't have sessions) and she still gives me a lot to think about. Is she smarter than me? I don't know. Does it matter? Not at all.
I don't think it's about intelligence, no matter how important that is to you. I think it is about you and whether or not you are ready to take the journey. You might think you are, but something in your post makes me wonder if you're not, or are somehow resistant. I don't mean this to sound like I'm blaming you, depression is like that. Inertia is much much easier than actually doing anything, especially when you don't have much energy to do anything differently. And depression also leaches away that hope or faith that anything will make a difference.
For me, it took dramatic, catalysing changes in my life that completely turned it upside down (some would say "ruined" but as miserable as it was, I'm actually glad it happened) in order to make me change, because I am just that stubborn and just that good at convincing myself of things. For you, maybe it doesn't have to be so drama-laden. Maybe find someone you enjoy talking to and see how it goes. Persist. It's worth a shot.
posted by Athanassiel at 7:09 PM on May 10, 2013 [3 favorites]
Hmmm. It might help to ask around your group of friends or acquaintances who've had therapy, and look for someone who was completely transformed by it. Even better if he or she was initially a skeptic. Ask him/her about the experience. Ask for the therapists name, and then either see that therapist or ask that therapist to recommend a colleague. but be sure to tell that therapist what it was that was so compelling.
Or just call up a few therapists and say something like "Listen, I have a tendency to think I'm smarter than everyone else, including my therapist, and I need someone who will call 'bullshit.'" Then judge the response on the phone. I think you want someone who laughs at that (but with compassion). BTW - it's not important that you don't actually have an ongoing problem of thinking you're smarter than everybody else. This is just a way to make conversation on the phone.
posted by vitabellosi at 7:14 PM on May 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Or just call up a few therapists and say something like "Listen, I have a tendency to think I'm smarter than everyone else, including my therapist, and I need someone who will call 'bullshit.'" Then judge the response on the phone. I think you want someone who laughs at that (but with compassion). BTW - it's not important that you don't actually have an ongoing problem of thinking you're smarter than everybody else. This is just a way to make conversation on the phone.
posted by vitabellosi at 7:14 PM on May 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
You might search for "therapy for gifted adults." I don't have any experience with them, but there are therapists who consider themselves smarter than average who offer counseling over the phone to other smarter-than-average folks.
posted by ceiba at 7:31 PM on May 10, 2013
posted by ceiba at 7:31 PM on May 10, 2013
"Dumb" people can be good at their jobs too.
(And classifying the world as smarter than, as smart as, or dumber than you might be part of your problem.)
posted by gjc at 7:56 PM on May 10, 2013 [8 favorites]
(And classifying the world as smarter than, as smart as, or dumber than you might be part of your problem.)
posted by gjc at 7:56 PM on May 10, 2013 [8 favorites]
Have you ever sought out a therapist who was a psychologist, with a PhD? I've had two therapists who were Master's level social workers and two therapist who were psychologists. All of them were insightful in their own ways, but I have found that I just feel more comfortable, rightly or wrongly, seeing someone who has a PhD. This may be irrational and elitist, but I just (initially, at least) have a different level of deference for someone with that academic training (I feel the same way about seeing a doctor vs. a physician's assistant). Maybe you have this bias as well.
posted by megancita at 9:04 PM on May 10, 2013
posted by megancita at 9:04 PM on May 10, 2013
Or is there maybe some way I can better benefit from a therapist who doesn't seem very insightful?
I noticed you kind of contradicted yourself a little bit, because "smart" and "insightful" are different things. I think the "coach" analogy above is a really good one- sports coaches can't physically do the things they ask athletes to do, but they can help the athletes get the maximum from their abilities.
People saying "it's about you" are way way off base. I mean of course it's about you, but you already know you have some issues and are seeking help- you're doing all the right things, and I'm not sure why people would think berating you is an appropriate response. The bottom line is, yes it's "about you" - it's about you finding a therapist you click well with. I don't they need to be an intellectual giant, but they do need to be able to "coach" you in a way that helps, and that you feel confident is helping. Find someone like that and you won't care how smart they may or may not be, I bet. Good luck!
posted by drjimmy11 at 9:13 PM on May 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
I noticed you kind of contradicted yourself a little bit, because "smart" and "insightful" are different things. I think the "coach" analogy above is a really good one- sports coaches can't physically do the things they ask athletes to do, but they can help the athletes get the maximum from their abilities.
People saying "it's about you" are way way off base. I mean of course it's about you, but you already know you have some issues and are seeking help- you're doing all the right things, and I'm not sure why people would think berating you is an appropriate response. The bottom line is, yes it's "about you" - it's about you finding a therapist you click well with. I don't they need to be an intellectual giant, but they do need to be able to "coach" you in a way that helps, and that you feel confident is helping. Find someone like that and you won't care how smart they may or may not be, I bet. Good luck!
posted by drjimmy11 at 9:13 PM on May 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
It seems like you're thinking that depression is a mental disease, and you haven't been smart enough to think your way out of it, so anyone who will be able to do that for you has to be smarter than you. Which isn't exactly right. First, it's totally possible for a therapist to be of average intelligence but good at the things needed to be a therapist (ie very empathetic, and able to get at the feelings behind your words, etc. ). Second, there's value in having another person talk things out with you (this is why therapists, even the best, often have therapists). Third, don't discount experience; if you've seen the same thing a hundred times with a hundred different clients, you don't have to be that smart to pick up on it.
Of course you should trust your instincts on whether you click with a therapist, but as other people have said, consider that depression is messing up your instincts. Maybe talk this out with a therapist when you first meet them? It could be something they've seen before and can work with.
posted by vogon_poet at 9:30 PM on May 10, 2013
Of course you should trust your instincts on whether you click with a therapist, but as other people have said, consider that depression is messing up your instincts. Maybe talk this out with a therapist when you first meet them? It could be something they've seen before and can work with.
posted by vogon_poet at 9:30 PM on May 10, 2013
I have one rule for therapy: your therapist needs to be smarter than you.
If she/he is not... you are jerking off and likely just fucking around.
Shop around, find someone good and get challenged. This thing (life, existence, consciousness), goes much higher than you think and even though you are smart, others got there first and paved the way.
I agree with what I think is the essence of this answer, but I don't think that "smarter" is a good word here. I found this essay very helpful when I was depressed: http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2825. Reading and thinking about it almost immediately made me less afraid of my anxiety and depression, and I love basically every line of it, but I think this passage in particular is relevant to your question:
So how do we relate to that squeeze? Somehow, someone finally needs to encourage us to be inquisitive about this unknown territory and about the unanswerable question of what's going to happen next.
The state of nowness is available in that moment of squeeze. In that awkward, ambiguous moment is our own wisdom mind. Right there in the uncertainty of everyday chaos is our own wisdom mind.
We need encouragement to experiment and try this kind of thing. It's quite daring, and maybe we feel we aren't up to it. But that's the point. Right there in that inadequate, restless feeling is our wisdom mind. We can simply experiment. There's absolutely nothing to lose. We could experiment with not getting tossed around by right and wrong and with learning to relax with groundlessness.
...
One can be grateful that a long lineage of teachers has worked with holding their seats with the big squeeze. They were tested and failed and still kept exploring how to just stay there, not seeking solid ground. They trained again and again throughout their lives not to give up on themselves and not to run away when the bottom fell out of their concepts and their noble ideals.
From their own experience they have passed along to us the encouragement not to jump over the big squeeze, but to look at it just as it is, not just out of the corner of an eye. They showed us how to experience it fully, not as good or bad, but simply as unconditioned and ordinary.
This. This is what a good therapist will do. I don't believe it is necessarily someone who is smarter than you. It is someone who has sat with that squeeze and can encourage you to experiment with it even though you feel like retreating. It is a form of wisdom, I suppose; though, as people above have pointed out, wisdom comes in many forms.
posted by holympus at 9:44 PM on May 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
If she/he is not... you are jerking off and likely just fucking around.
Shop around, find someone good and get challenged. This thing (life, existence, consciousness), goes much higher than you think and even though you are smart, others got there first and paved the way.
I agree with what I think is the essence of this answer, but I don't think that "smarter" is a good word here. I found this essay very helpful when I was depressed: http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2825. Reading and thinking about it almost immediately made me less afraid of my anxiety and depression, and I love basically every line of it, but I think this passage in particular is relevant to your question:
So how do we relate to that squeeze? Somehow, someone finally needs to encourage us to be inquisitive about this unknown territory and about the unanswerable question of what's going to happen next.
The state of nowness is available in that moment of squeeze. In that awkward, ambiguous moment is our own wisdom mind. Right there in the uncertainty of everyday chaos is our own wisdom mind.
We need encouragement to experiment and try this kind of thing. It's quite daring, and maybe we feel we aren't up to it. But that's the point. Right there in that inadequate, restless feeling is our wisdom mind. We can simply experiment. There's absolutely nothing to lose. We could experiment with not getting tossed around by right and wrong and with learning to relax with groundlessness.
...
One can be grateful that a long lineage of teachers has worked with holding their seats with the big squeeze. They were tested and failed and still kept exploring how to just stay there, not seeking solid ground. They trained again and again throughout their lives not to give up on themselves and not to run away when the bottom fell out of their concepts and their noble ideals.
From their own experience they have passed along to us the encouragement not to jump over the big squeeze, but to look at it just as it is, not just out of the corner of an eye. They showed us how to experience it fully, not as good or bad, but simply as unconditioned and ordinary.
This. This is what a good therapist will do. I don't believe it is necessarily someone who is smarter than you. It is someone who has sat with that squeeze and can encourage you to experiment with it even though you feel like retreating. It is a form of wisdom, I suppose; though, as people above have pointed out, wisdom comes in many forms.
posted by holympus at 9:44 PM on May 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
I know your pain. I hate to be an elitist ass, but I always look to see where a therapist got his or her degree. And I always take Princeton over University of southern Mississippi.
posted by Crotalus at 1:02 AM on May 11, 2013
posted by Crotalus at 1:02 AM on May 11, 2013
Some people are adept at using their intellect to avoid dealing with their problems. I suspect you're one of them. They notice the logical flaws or imprecise wording of the therapist and use this to dismiss the content. If you think you may be one of those people, I suggest you find someone who is smart enough to know that's what you do and help you get beyond it.
Alternatively, you can stop doing that. You can "take what you need and leave the rest." Ultimately, therapy is more about relationship than about intelligence but you may have difficulty connecting with someone you can outsmart.
posted by Obscure Reference at 5:46 AM on May 11, 2013 [3 favorites]
Alternatively, you can stop doing that. You can "take what you need and leave the rest." Ultimately, therapy is more about relationship than about intelligence but you may have difficulty connecting with someone you can outsmart.
posted by Obscure Reference at 5:46 AM on May 11, 2013 [3 favorites]
I have one rule for therapy: your therapist needs to be smarter than you.
If she/he is not... you are jerking off and likely just fucking around.
The problem with this theory is that there's going to be a limit on the intelligence of therapists you'll be able to find. If someone is really smart and really passionate about psychology they'll probably be a professor doing research. If someone is really smart and not super-into in psychology, they won't become psychologists in the first place.
So if you're really smart, how could you find a therapist smarter then you?
I kind of doubt being super-smart means your brain is screwed up in some unique, special-snowfake way. It may be that if you're smarter then your therapist, you may use that as excuse to ignore what she has to say.
You could also try reading some textbooks yourself and learning what it is these people are supposed to be doing. If you're actually smarter then them, you should be able to do it, right?
posted by delmoi at 6:24 AM on May 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
Argument for smarter-than-you therapists: I think a therapist should at least be able to keep pace with you, if not stay a step ahead. It is not useful to spend half an hour just explaining things in various ways, just to get sort of roughly understood (vs as a kind of therapeutic exercise). Also, it's really unhelpful for a therapist to uncritically accept (what might be) rationalizations. Additionally, s/he should be able to see things you have not considered, and things that lie outside of your narrative/perspective. Smarts + insight + whatever wisdom is + offering a basically accepting stance (I think that matters) = ideal.
A doctoral-level education isn't a necessary or sufficient condition for that though, imo. At least some sharp, creative therapists are put off by the training demands of clinical psych (acceptance of hierarchy & lots of multiple-choice testing at the undergrad level, at least), or have had other kinds of life experiences before committing to their training. My best therapist so far (sample size = 7) has an MEd, and had been a textile designer prior to her switch. Worst-for-me was a psychiatrist.
One correlate to the right kind of cleverness, I've found, is that in the initial conversation, the therapist can clearly articulate his/her methods/orientation and expected/hoped-for outcomes. S/he is precise without relying on jargon or dumbing things down, & can pitch his/her tone appropriately because s/he has worked out what kind of client/audience you are, from your questions.
Agree with trying Skype if you have to.
posted by nelljie at 8:05 AM on May 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
A doctoral-level education isn't a necessary or sufficient condition for that though, imo. At least some sharp, creative therapists are put off by the training demands of clinical psych (acceptance of hierarchy & lots of multiple-choice testing at the undergrad level, at least), or have had other kinds of life experiences before committing to their training. My best therapist so far (sample size = 7) has an MEd, and had been a textile designer prior to her switch. Worst-for-me was a psychiatrist.
One correlate to the right kind of cleverness, I've found, is that in the initial conversation, the therapist can clearly articulate his/her methods/orientation and expected/hoped-for outcomes. S/he is precise without relying on jargon or dumbing things down, & can pitch his/her tone appropriately because s/he has worked out what kind of client/audience you are, from your questions.
Agree with trying Skype if you have to.
posted by nelljie at 8:05 AM on May 11, 2013 [1 favorite]
There are certainly bad therapists. There are also bad patients, who perform intellectual gymnastics in order to avoid addressing their actual issues. Good therapists generally avoid getting caught up in the intellectual gymnastics and instead work to get the client back to the ground.
Intellectual gymnastics can be thrilling and impressive and fun, and are perfectly appropriate in a lot of settings, most of them work- and school-related. They tend to actively hinder patients in therapeutic settings.
People who are really into intellectualizing often tend to see attempts to bring them back down to the ground as stupid or pedestrian or plodding, since they tend to involve non-intellectual things like breathing, feeling, and being. Breathing, feeling, and being seem like things most of us should have mastered after a month or two on earth, but they're deceptively difficult for adults to accomplish.
In essence, you probably don't want a therapist who will enable your defense mechanisms too much. There's a difference between a therapist who, for instance, doesn't understand words you use commonly (not a good match) and one who, for instance, doesn't get engaged in long spiels devoid of real emotional content (good match).
posted by jaguar at 10:28 AM on May 11, 2013 [6 favorites]
Intellectual gymnastics can be thrilling and impressive and fun, and are perfectly appropriate in a lot of settings, most of them work- and school-related. They tend to actively hinder patients in therapeutic settings.
People who are really into intellectualizing often tend to see attempts to bring them back down to the ground as stupid or pedestrian or plodding, since they tend to involve non-intellectual things like breathing, feeling, and being. Breathing, feeling, and being seem like things most of us should have mastered after a month or two on earth, but they're deceptively difficult for adults to accomplish.
In essence, you probably don't want a therapist who will enable your defense mechanisms too much. There's a difference between a therapist who, for instance, doesn't understand words you use commonly (not a good match) and one who, for instance, doesn't get engaged in long spiels devoid of real emotional content (good match).
posted by jaguar at 10:28 AM on May 11, 2013 [6 favorites]
Honestly, do you even want to be in therapy? Not to be facetious, but it's sounding like your wife is the one that really wants you to go. You've been able to objectively identify reasons why therapy may be useful, but your post is heavy on how therapists wouldn't be able to help you and why things aren't really that bad, anyway. If you're only considering therapy not because you want to go but because you think you should, then that's going to contribute to this mindset where you're spending more energy looking for signs that your therapist is "intelligent enough" than actually engaging in the therapeutic process.
You've already articulated a few problem areas that are contributing to your depression, so why not start there? Practice good sleep hygiene, reach out to your friends more, take up a hobby that gets you out of the house and around other people. If that helps, great! If it doesn't improve things or you have trouble following through, then you can use that as a way to clarify what therapy can do for you and what you're looking for from a therapist as opposed to your current framework, which lends itself towards self-sabotage.
posted by fox problems at 12:36 PM on May 11, 2013
You've already articulated a few problem areas that are contributing to your depression, so why not start there? Practice good sleep hygiene, reach out to your friends more, take up a hobby that gets you out of the house and around other people. If that helps, great! If it doesn't improve things or you have trouble following through, then you can use that as a way to clarify what therapy can do for you and what you're looking for from a therapist as opposed to your current framework, which lends itself towards self-sabotage.
posted by fox problems at 12:36 PM on May 11, 2013
I'm your clone.
Intelligence has very little to do with it. A good therapist (friend, wife) is intensely sympathetic -- someone who will accept your deepest, most fearful, most shameful secrets and feelings -- and murmur a lullaby.
It may take a crisis. I got my dope-slap when I lost my left big toe to diabetic neurothapy. It's about finding someone to trust with that fear.
Coming up from depression is frightening. It's harder to be on even a mild mood roller-coaster than it is to be down but steady. With mommy's unconditional love, most people learn to cope by the age of four. It took me 65 extra years, but I'm getting there, and you can, too.
posted by KRS at 4:24 PM on May 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
Intelligence has very little to do with it. A good therapist (friend, wife) is intensely sympathetic -- someone who will accept your deepest, most fearful, most shameful secrets and feelings -- and murmur a lullaby.
It may take a crisis. I got my dope-slap when I lost my left big toe to diabetic neurothapy. It's about finding someone to trust with that fear.
Coming up from depression is frightening. It's harder to be on even a mild mood roller-coaster than it is to be down but steady. With mommy's unconditional love, most people learn to cope by the age of four. It took me 65 extra years, but I'm getting there, and you can, too.
posted by KRS at 4:24 PM on May 11, 2013 [2 favorites]
I share your complaint. I think it's a lot like college professors -- the truly bad ones are less helpful than reading the textbook, and ultimately the therapist/teacher can only show you the path; you have to do the work. "You are your own best therapist" is often true, provided you're sufficiently self-aware. It's possible to use the "bad" therapist as an excuse for not making the choices to move in a positive direction.
I thought Get it done when you're depressed had some good ideas.
posted by sninctown at 6:08 PM on May 11, 2013
I thought Get it done when you're depressed had some good ideas.
posted by sninctown at 6:08 PM on May 11, 2013
This thread is closed to new comments.
Is there a reason you need to see a therapist who you believe is smarter than you? I understand the desire to seek care from someone who you respect but I also find that this may be an instance where someone may be really good at their job without necessarily being smarter than me. I think I might be smarter than some of my yoga teachers but they know more about yoga than I do and that's the purpose of our relationship so that's what matters.
Are there options for therapists you can work with via Skype? It's not ideal but that may work.
posted by kat518 at 5:34 PM on May 10, 2013 [2 favorites]