Am I just being a selfish prick?
September 29, 2011 3:18 PM Subscribe
I'm leaving my wife. Am I just being a selfish prick?
The history:
- We are both mid-30s
- 2 kids, aged 15 and 10.
- When we were teenagers, she told me she wouldn't get pregnant. She did.
- She told me she would give the baby up for adoption. She didn't.
- I married her because it was the right thing to do.
- I worked very hard to get a degree, get a good job, and get us to a better place.
- She worked very little (some but not much) and mostly took care of the kids.
- She was raised by an abusive mother
- In 2010, she told me about the sexual abuse at the hands of her step-father.
The bad:
- She has been emotionally abusive to me over the course of our marriage
- She has been physically abusive at times during our marriage, mostly by throwing things at me when she gets angry.
- The sex has been pretty bad, and often infrequent.
- She has been jealous and insecure, and has gotten upset if I mention a female colleague or coworker often. She has gotten angry if she thinks I am looking at another woman, even one on television.
- There has been an imbalance in responsibility. I work full time, do almost all of the cooking, and about half the cleaning.
The good:
- We get along pretty well. We laugh and joke and have a decent time.
- We are a good team parenting the kids
- She works hard to be a good mother.
Recent changes:
- 1 year ago, Sept 2010, we got in a big fight. She threatened me that she would overdose on pills if I didn't do what she wanted. It was my final straw, and I withdrew from the marriage.
- She went through with the threat, overdosed, and the next day sought help. She is still in therapy and getting better.
- I left the next day, in a heavy emotional state, but got in a car wreck leaving, and went back very shaken.
- Since then, we have tried to make it work. She is making a real effort, and has gotten a lot better. She finished her degree, finally, 10 years after I did. She is looking for a job. She cooks dinner during weeknights. She is trying very hard to be a better spouse. When we were in the same bed, she was trying to initiate sex. The problem was by that time, I wasn't very interested anymore and I wasn't initiating.
The feelings:
- It isn't working for me. I don't love her anymore. I moved into the spare room in July. I would like to move out as soon as she has a job.
- I have a lot of resentment over the way she has treated me, including the pregnancy and the abuse. I am in therapy for this. She thinks as I work through my issues, my feelings towards her will warm.
- She thinks I am having a mid-life crisis.
- I would like to explore some kinky sex.
- I have a LOT of guilt over this whole situation.
The complications:
- The kids. This is very rough on them, and that breaks my heart.
- The kids. I want to be a good father, and I don't know how to make that work if we are not together.
- Other women. I think one of the things that kept me in the marriage so long was my lack of confidence. I kept thinking things would get better, when I graduated, when I had steady work. When those things finally materialized just a few years ago, I still wasn't happy. So I got in shape, and started dressing nicer, taking care of myself more, and it made me feel a lot better about myself. I have more confidence. And people treat me better, which I don't know if it is a product of looking better or being more confident, but I suspect both. I attract female attention now in a way that I didn't before, and I really like that. And I want to act on it. I haven't, yet, but I want to. I look at OKCupid at night and think about who I would like to message and fantasize how the dates would go.
- One female friend in particular, who I've known since December. The wife brought her up a month or so ago (after I was in the spare room), and we got into a fight about her. She really is just a friend, someone I email once a week or so, usually about TV or sports or something banal. I haven't had many female friends in a long time (since college), and it is nice to have one. We have not crossed any lines, there is no emotional affair. But she is beautiful, and smart, and we get along well. And I would love to date her, except she lives 1000 miles away, so the possibility is slim. But just knowing her makes me feel more comfortable with the idea of dating, with the idea of talking to other women. Like if this one great woman is cool with me, then maybe others would be cool with me too.
- The wife is trying very hard. If she had done this years ago, I would have been ecstatic. Now I feel it is too little, too late.
- Alimony. I don't want to pay. I feel like I have given enough, and I don't want to give more. I will be generous with child support though.
But this is all very hard. A big part of me thinks I'm just being selfish, and breaking up my family for no good reason, or that even this won't lead me to happiness. I've tried a lot of things to be happier, positive things to make my life better in the long term, getting a degree, getting a job I'm happy with, getting in shape, eating right, being social. Leaving her was not my first choice. Maybe it's not the right choice, and happiness doesn't exist? In Walden, Henry David Thorough wrote "Most men lead lives of quiet desperation." Should I just give up, go back to my wife, and live the next 50 years in quiet desperation? Is she right, will I grow to love her again with enough therapy?
The history:
- We are both mid-30s
- 2 kids, aged 15 and 10.
- When we were teenagers, she told me she wouldn't get pregnant. She did.
- She told me she would give the baby up for adoption. She didn't.
- I married her because it was the right thing to do.
- I worked very hard to get a degree, get a good job, and get us to a better place.
- She worked very little (some but not much) and mostly took care of the kids.
- She was raised by an abusive mother
- In 2010, she told me about the sexual abuse at the hands of her step-father.
The bad:
- She has been emotionally abusive to me over the course of our marriage
- She has been physically abusive at times during our marriage, mostly by throwing things at me when she gets angry.
- The sex has been pretty bad, and often infrequent.
- She has been jealous and insecure, and has gotten upset if I mention a female colleague or coworker often. She has gotten angry if she thinks I am looking at another woman, even one on television.
- There has been an imbalance in responsibility. I work full time, do almost all of the cooking, and about half the cleaning.
The good:
- We get along pretty well. We laugh and joke and have a decent time.
- We are a good team parenting the kids
- She works hard to be a good mother.
Recent changes:
- 1 year ago, Sept 2010, we got in a big fight. She threatened me that she would overdose on pills if I didn't do what she wanted. It was my final straw, and I withdrew from the marriage.
- She went through with the threat, overdosed, and the next day sought help. She is still in therapy and getting better.
- I left the next day, in a heavy emotional state, but got in a car wreck leaving, and went back very shaken.
- Since then, we have tried to make it work. She is making a real effort, and has gotten a lot better. She finished her degree, finally, 10 years after I did. She is looking for a job. She cooks dinner during weeknights. She is trying very hard to be a better spouse. When we were in the same bed, she was trying to initiate sex. The problem was by that time, I wasn't very interested anymore and I wasn't initiating.
The feelings:
- It isn't working for me. I don't love her anymore. I moved into the spare room in July. I would like to move out as soon as she has a job.
- I have a lot of resentment over the way she has treated me, including the pregnancy and the abuse. I am in therapy for this. She thinks as I work through my issues, my feelings towards her will warm.
- She thinks I am having a mid-life crisis.
- I would like to explore some kinky sex.
- I have a LOT of guilt over this whole situation.
The complications:
- The kids. This is very rough on them, and that breaks my heart.
- The kids. I want to be a good father, and I don't know how to make that work if we are not together.
- Other women. I think one of the things that kept me in the marriage so long was my lack of confidence. I kept thinking things would get better, when I graduated, when I had steady work. When those things finally materialized just a few years ago, I still wasn't happy. So I got in shape, and started dressing nicer, taking care of myself more, and it made me feel a lot better about myself. I have more confidence. And people treat me better, which I don't know if it is a product of looking better or being more confident, but I suspect both. I attract female attention now in a way that I didn't before, and I really like that. And I want to act on it. I haven't, yet, but I want to. I look at OKCupid at night and think about who I would like to message and fantasize how the dates would go.
- One female friend in particular, who I've known since December. The wife brought her up a month or so ago (after I was in the spare room), and we got into a fight about her. She really is just a friend, someone I email once a week or so, usually about TV or sports or something banal. I haven't had many female friends in a long time (since college), and it is nice to have one. We have not crossed any lines, there is no emotional affair. But she is beautiful, and smart, and we get along well. And I would love to date her, except she lives 1000 miles away, so the possibility is slim. But just knowing her makes me feel more comfortable with the idea of dating, with the idea of talking to other women. Like if this one great woman is cool with me, then maybe others would be cool with me too.
- The wife is trying very hard. If she had done this years ago, I would have been ecstatic. Now I feel it is too little, too late.
- Alimony. I don't want to pay. I feel like I have given enough, and I don't want to give more. I will be generous with child support though.
But this is all very hard. A big part of me thinks I'm just being selfish, and breaking up my family for no good reason, or that even this won't lead me to happiness. I've tried a lot of things to be happier, positive things to make my life better in the long term, getting a degree, getting a job I'm happy with, getting in shape, eating right, being social. Leaving her was not my first choice. Maybe it's not the right choice, and happiness doesn't exist? In Walden, Henry David Thorough wrote "Most men lead lives of quiet desperation." Should I just give up, go back to my wife, and live the next 50 years in quiet desperation? Is she right, will I grow to love her again with enough therapy?
To be perfectly honest, it sounds like you still resent her for "making" you marry her by getting pregnant. This is a bit harsh, but where is your responsibility in this? If you were having unprotected sex with her, you got her pregnant. Regardless of what else you do, I think you need to take responsibility for that fact.
As far as whether or not to stay with her... you are describing a tough situation here, and it sounds like you've gone through a lot for the benefit of your kids. I'm sorry you had to go through that. You seem like a good dad, and that you've done your best to provide for your children. Divorces can be really tough on kids, but so can an unhappy home life where the parents stay together.
Have you guys tried couples therapy? If she's responded to the individual therapy, it is probably a good idea for you guys to try it as a couple. This doesn't necessarily need to be done as a step towards staying together, but you have kids and she is someone who will be in your life forever. You and she need to get along, and couples therapy could help you work together through the past drama and resentments.
People change, for the better and for the worse. At the very least, you guys can get on good terms with each other to help your kids.
posted by DoubleLune at 3:33 PM on September 29, 2011 [42 favorites]
As far as whether or not to stay with her... you are describing a tough situation here, and it sounds like you've gone through a lot for the benefit of your kids. I'm sorry you had to go through that. You seem like a good dad, and that you've done your best to provide for your children. Divorces can be really tough on kids, but so can an unhappy home life where the parents stay together.
Have you guys tried couples therapy? If she's responded to the individual therapy, it is probably a good idea for you guys to try it as a couple. This doesn't necessarily need to be done as a step towards staying together, but you have kids and she is someone who will be in your life forever. You and she need to get along, and couples therapy could help you work together through the past drama and resentments.
People change, for the better and for the worse. At the very least, you guys can get on good terms with each other to help your kids.
posted by DoubleLune at 3:33 PM on September 29, 2011 [42 favorites]
Nope. Not selfish at all. Time to go. She needs to be an adult, and you need to buck up and fight for full custody.
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 3:33 PM on September 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 3:33 PM on September 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
*buck up and consider fighting for full custody
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 3:34 PM on September 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by These Birds of a Feather at 3:34 PM on September 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
She didn't get pregnant by herself. You have to own that initial decision.
You say she is taking positive steps. So basically you need to figure out whether your desire to move on is more important than your children's need for a stable and intact home.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 3:37 PM on September 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
You say she is taking positive steps. So basically you need to figure out whether your desire to move on is more important than your children's need for a stable and intact home.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 3:37 PM on September 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
Given that she is trying hard and what she is doing now would have made you "ecstatic" had it happened years ago, I do think it is possible for you to find love again with your wife. But in order to do that, you will first have to forgive her for her past unacceptable behavior.
That said, stop playing the victim card regarding your kids and how you came to be married. You were not required to get her pregnant or marry her, but you did. Own your decisions.
posted by murrey at 3:37 PM on September 29, 2011 [41 favorites]
That said, stop playing the victim card regarding your kids and how you came to be married. You were not required to get her pregnant or marry her, but you did. Own your decisions.
posted by murrey at 3:37 PM on September 29, 2011 [41 favorites]
One female friend in particular, who I've known since December. The wife brought her up a month or so ago (after I was in the spare room), and we got into a fight about her. She really is just a friend, someone I email once a week or so, usually about TV or sports or something banal. I haven't had many female friends in a long time (since college), and it is nice to have one. We have not crossed any lines, there is no emotional affair. But she is beautiful, and smart, and we get along well. And I would love to date her, except she lives 1000 miles away, so the possibility is slim. But just knowing her makes me feel more comfortable with the idea of dating, with the idea of talking to other women. Like if this one great woman is cool with me, then maybe others would be cool with me too.
It sounds like your wife's jealousy isn't completely unfounded then, especially considering you've been corresponding with this woman for almost a year, supposedly while you were still trying to work things out with your wife.
I get the sense you're acknowledging none of the responsibility for the demise of your marriage. Even if she were more responsible, it's always a two way dynamic, and the fact that you take little to no blame makes me wonder if we're getting a really skewed half of the story. I'm not saying your complaints aren't legitimate, but it's just hard to tell because there's so much contempt woven throughout your post.
Btw, while you may resent her for having the child, nobody made you marry her. That was your choice, so own it.
posted by timsneezed at 3:42 PM on September 29, 2011 [39 favorites]
It sounds like your wife's jealousy isn't completely unfounded then, especially considering you've been corresponding with this woman for almost a year, supposedly while you were still trying to work things out with your wife.
I get the sense you're acknowledging none of the responsibility for the demise of your marriage. Even if she were more responsible, it's always a two way dynamic, and the fact that you take little to no blame makes me wonder if we're getting a really skewed half of the story. I'm not saying your complaints aren't legitimate, but it's just hard to tell because there's so much contempt woven throughout your post.
Btw, while you may resent her for having the child, nobody made you marry her. That was your choice, so own it.
posted by timsneezed at 3:42 PM on September 29, 2011 [39 favorites]
You need to speak to a family law attorney in your jurisdiction about the realistic likelihood of various outcomes. Since we don't know where you live, we can't tell you what kind of alimony or child support you might be ordered to pay. We can't tell you what the likely child custody arrangement will be. We can't even tell you whether you can get a no-fault divorce, or whether you'll be litigating this for years at great expense.
It seems pretty clear that you want to leave your wife. It also seems pretty clear that you want to make the fact that you're leaving her fault. You are absolutely entitled to do the former. No one can really stop you from doing the latter, although I can tell you that it'll likely be a lot better for you and your children if you take some responsibility for your own role in this. (Seriously, she "promised not to get pregnant," and you view it as dishonesty on her part because your sperm didn't live up to your demand that basic biology bend to your will?) But you're legally bound to your wife, and so the law will have a big role in determining what your future with her looks like. Get competent counsel.
And by the way, there are states in which fault affects the division of marital assets. I realize that you believe you are "anonymous" here, but I would seriously caution you against making public written statements about your marriage that could later be used against you. Assume that you are never anonymous, especially when you give specific timelines and describe specific incidents in your marriage.
posted by decathecting at 3:45 PM on September 29, 2011 [5 favorites]
It seems pretty clear that you want to leave your wife. It also seems pretty clear that you want to make the fact that you're leaving her fault. You are absolutely entitled to do the former. No one can really stop you from doing the latter, although I can tell you that it'll likely be a lot better for you and your children if you take some responsibility for your own role in this. (Seriously, she "promised not to get pregnant," and you view it as dishonesty on her part because your sperm didn't live up to your demand that basic biology bend to your will?) But you're legally bound to your wife, and so the law will have a big role in determining what your future with her looks like. Get competent counsel.
And by the way, there are states in which fault affects the division of marital assets. I realize that you believe you are "anonymous" here, but I would seriously caution you against making public written statements about your marriage that could later be used against you. Assume that you are never anonymous, especially when you give specific timelines and describe specific incidents in your marriage.
posted by decathecting at 3:45 PM on September 29, 2011 [5 favorites]
Should I just give up, go back to my wife, and live the next 50 years in quiet desperation?
If you're asking this, you already know what the answer is.
So basically you need to figure out whether your desire to move on is more important than your children's need for a stable and intact home.
Doesn't sound like the present home is as "stable" or "intact" as the OP would like, according to the customary definitions. Therefore, OP, I think if you can take stock of what makes you a good parent and what makes you and your wife work together as parents, you can weigh things accordingly in your decision.
Also, the OP isn't denying his role in the pregnancy - he merely mentioned that he felt deceived as to contraception and deceived as to the decision to give the baby up for adoption. Sure, OP could have worn a condom, but people of both sexes are entitled to rely on their partners being truthful. In otherwords, this is a trust issue, not a sex issue, and is absolutely relevant to the subsequent course of the relationship. I really don't get the backlash so far in this thread, but it would be really neat if people could leave their ideology at the door and focus on providing helpful answers.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 3:46 PM on September 29, 2011 [19 favorites]
If you're asking this, you already know what the answer is.
So basically you need to figure out whether your desire to move on is more important than your children's need for a stable and intact home.
Doesn't sound like the present home is as "stable" or "intact" as the OP would like, according to the customary definitions. Therefore, OP, I think if you can take stock of what makes you a good parent and what makes you and your wife work together as parents, you can weigh things accordingly in your decision.
Also, the OP isn't denying his role in the pregnancy - he merely mentioned that he felt deceived as to contraception and deceived as to the decision to give the baby up for adoption. Sure, OP could have worn a condom, but people of both sexes are entitled to rely on their partners being truthful. In otherwords, this is a trust issue, not a sex issue, and is absolutely relevant to the subsequent course of the relationship. I really don't get the backlash so far in this thread, but it would be really neat if people could leave their ideology at the door and focus on providing helpful answers.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 3:46 PM on September 29, 2011 [19 favorites]
There's a lot here to unpack, but I had to respond to this comment:
So basically you need to figure out whether your desire to move on is more important than your children's need for a stable and intact home.
Is is possible for your children to have a stable and healthy home even if you leave your wife. Thinking you have to stay together for the kids is an outdated and potentially harmful notion.
posted by Specklet at 3:47 PM on September 29, 2011 [22 favorites]
So basically you need to figure out whether your desire to move on is more important than your children's need for a stable and intact home.
Is is possible for your children to have a stable and healthy home even if you leave your wife. Thinking you have to stay together for the kids is an outdated and potentially harmful notion.
posted by Specklet at 3:47 PM on September 29, 2011 [22 favorites]
Mod note: absolutely do not start a derail conversation, small text or otherwise, about contraception or anything other than answering the OPs question. Thank you.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:47 PM on September 29, 2011
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 3:47 PM on September 29, 2011
As the child of parents who separated, I say you need to go ahead and take the steps that will make you happier. Do you really want to model that it's OK to live with somebody who doesn't treat you well, or to have your kids know that you're making yourself unhappy for their sake? I get the sense that you're gone in 8 years, regardless.
My parents separated when I was 11 or so. My sister would have been 7. By that point, I was old enough to observe the friction in their marriage, though I don't think it ever involved abuse. (I've never asked for details as to what happened.) Dad setting up his own household was actually a relief. It just turned into a normal part of our lives.
Things my parents did right:
* Dad didn't just walk out on Mom and leave her to fend for herself. He did as you've been doing, waited for Mom to get more training and a job. I know he even gave her money, but I don't know how much, or whether it would have qualified as alimony/child support.
* Dad insisted that children need their mother, and Mom insisted that we needed our father. They split custody equally, and wouldn't bad-mouth each other.
* They never fought in front of us. (But I did always recognize the tension after they'd discussed money)
* Both extended families were supportive - Mom actually was invited (and went!) to Thanksgiving with Dad's extended family. Same for Dad coming to Mom's family Christmas.
* They listened to us when the custody arrangement wasn't working for the kids, and adjusted it to be easier to deal with.
* Dad involved us in setting up his new household ... going shopping and actually getting to pick out all the housewares made it kind of exciting for preteens, rather than scary.
Of course, a lot of the above depends on her continuing to work as a team with you for the sake of your kids. You don't provide any information about how you think she's going to handle you giving up on the marriage. Is she going to be vindictive and go after you with lawyers?
posted by Metasyntactic at 3:48 PM on September 29, 2011 [18 favorites]
My parents separated when I was 11 or so. My sister would have been 7. By that point, I was old enough to observe the friction in their marriage, though I don't think it ever involved abuse. (I've never asked for details as to what happened.) Dad setting up his own household was actually a relief. It just turned into a normal part of our lives.
Things my parents did right:
* Dad didn't just walk out on Mom and leave her to fend for herself. He did as you've been doing, waited for Mom to get more training and a job. I know he even gave her money, but I don't know how much, or whether it would have qualified as alimony/child support.
* Dad insisted that children need their mother, and Mom insisted that we needed our father. They split custody equally, and wouldn't bad-mouth each other.
* They never fought in front of us. (But I did always recognize the tension after they'd discussed money)
* Both extended families were supportive - Mom actually was invited (and went!) to Thanksgiving with Dad's extended family. Same for Dad coming to Mom's family Christmas.
* They listened to us when the custody arrangement wasn't working for the kids, and adjusted it to be easier to deal with.
* Dad involved us in setting up his new household ... going shopping and actually getting to pick out all the housewares made it kind of exciting for preteens, rather than scary.
Of course, a lot of the above depends on her continuing to work as a team with you for the sake of your kids. You don't provide any information about how you think she's going to handle you giving up on the marriage. Is she going to be vindictive and go after you with lawyers?
posted by Metasyntactic at 3:48 PM on September 29, 2011 [18 favorites]
Lots of my friends are in happy well adjusted single parent households with shared parenting of the children. It's quite possible to do and well, with the right kind of local social support.
posted by singingfish at 3:53 PM on September 29, 2011
posted by singingfish at 3:53 PM on September 29, 2011
This might be salvageable, but I don't think you want to. So, try to prepare yourself for the cleanest possible divorce. Find out who the best divorce mediator is, and if you can, go see them. Ask how divorce functions legally in your state, and how you can best prepare for a fair split-up. If no mediator, find the least fighty divorce lawyer and ask the same question. Pay down debt. I recommend you move out, and date your wife. Living there is making you feel terrible. I think living elsewhere will give you some clarity, and allow you some respite from the long siege of feeling rotten.
Therapy isn't for making you love your wife. It's for getting past the anger and resentment you feel towards her, and for moving towards being your best self. Maybe she can be part of your life as your best self, maybe not. Couples/marriage therapy is about your marriage. A terrific therapist helped make it blindingly obvious to me that my marriage was making me miserable. It was hard on my son, and hard on me, but it was the right choice for us.
posted by theora55 at 3:53 PM on September 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
Therapy isn't for making you love your wife. It's for getting past the anger and resentment you feel towards her, and for moving towards being your best self. Maybe she can be part of your life as your best self, maybe not. Couples/marriage therapy is about your marriage. A terrific therapist helped make it blindingly obvious to me that my marriage was making me miserable. It was hard on my son, and hard on me, but it was the right choice for us.
posted by theora55 at 3:53 PM on September 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
I wish there was an edit post button. Yeah, what I see externally from my friends is very like what Metasyntatic described above.
posted by singingfish at 3:54 PM on September 29, 2011
posted by singingfish at 3:54 PM on September 29, 2011
I am reading a lot about how she's making positive changes and working on herself, but not so much about how you are.
It looks from here like it's worth devoting a ton of time on yourself (and NOT to the derail that is Miss OnethousandMilesAway- she is cocaine to you- just say no.) for six months or a year and see if divorce still seems like the only reasonable option. This probably means therapy or something similar.
posted by small_ruminant at 3:56 PM on September 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
It looks from here like it's worth devoting a ton of time on yourself (and NOT to the derail that is Miss OnethousandMilesAway- she is cocaine to you- just say no.) for six months or a year and see if divorce still seems like the only reasonable option. This probably means therapy or something similar.
posted by small_ruminant at 3:56 PM on September 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
Your kids are 15 and 10. Not 8 and 3.
Whatever decision you make, make it with a notion of showing your children how an adult handles this type of situation.
This shit right here?
"I have a lot of resentment..."
"I would like to explore some kinky sex."
"Other women..."
"I don't want to pay."
That's a lot of "I" right there. Put your dick on hold, pay your debts, whatever they may lawfully be and gut it the fuck out until the kids are adults. They will thank you for respecting yourself like this.
Eight years from now, when the younger kid is 18, do whatcha like. Until then...
Be brave. Be kind. Be noble.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:56 PM on September 29, 2011 [54 favorites]
Whatever decision you make, make it with a notion of showing your children how an adult handles this type of situation.
This shit right here?
"I have a lot of resentment..."
"I would like to explore some kinky sex."
"Other women..."
"I don't want to pay."
That's a lot of "I" right there. Put your dick on hold, pay your debts, whatever they may lawfully be and gut it the fuck out until the kids are adults. They will thank you for respecting yourself like this.
Eight years from now, when the younger kid is 18, do whatcha like. Until then...
Be brave. Be kind. Be noble.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 3:56 PM on September 29, 2011 [54 favorites]
I think people here are maybe focusing a little too much on the "she promised she wouldn't get pregnant" part of the post, which is just one tiny piece of a complicated and pretty agonizing-sounding situation. The stuff under "Recent changes" is heartbreaking, and seems like reasonable grounds for a divorce. I think you are right to go ahead with this separation, OP, which will unfortunately be painful, but has already happened on an emotional level anyway (like all the okcupid surfing and fantasizing). At every point in the process do your best to put the needs of your kids first. Both you and your wife sound like good, committed parents, and that should help a lot. Good luck with everything.
posted by ms.codex at 3:59 PM on September 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by ms.codex at 3:59 PM on September 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
Relationships are too complicated to answer your question at this distance. A couples therapist can help you split as well as help you stay together and someone needs to look at your situation without the prejudices of a participant.
posted by Obscure Reference at 4:04 PM on September 29, 2011 [6 favorites]
posted by Obscure Reference at 4:04 PM on September 29, 2011 [6 favorites]
You seem to be having a lot of what-if fantasies, which I'm sure is only to be expected in the situation - what if I were single and dating super awesome chicks, what if I didn't have to give my ex-wife money, what if I had a lot of kinky sex, what if (seems to be your assumption) the kids stayed with her so I didn't really have that day-to-day responsibility either, what if I didn't have to pay alimony...
But that's not who you are. Even if you get divorced, you're not going to be awesome totally unencumbered swinging bachelor guy, you're going to be a divorced father of two. You will still have a lot of the financial and familial responsibilities you currently have.
Splitting up will not create a time machine back to before you got married. It will not fix every life issue you have. It will just mean that you no longer live with your wife. It may very well be that not living with her would improve your life so drastically that it's worth it to cut line and get out ASAP. Or it may be that you are assigning blame for many concerns and problems you have to this one thing, and changing that one thing would not solve as much stuff as you are assuming it will. Nobody else can know that.
But I do think you are pretty into a narrative where you are essentially a blameless victim who got suckered into a bad marriage, and maybe it's the guilt telling you to think those things, as though it will be easier to leave if you become really convinced that this is Her Fault. But I don't think, if what you want is to get out of your marriage in a reasonably clean and human way, that the blamey narrative will help you get clear on what you want to do. I would try to stop focusing on things your wife has done wrong and start focusing on what exactly you think would be better if you weren't married, and mull that over for a while. And try to be very honest with yourself about those issues. (I would find a therapist helpful for working through this kind of thing, but YMMV.)
posted by thehmsbeagle at 4:09 PM on September 29, 2011 [37 favorites]
But that's not who you are. Even if you get divorced, you're not going to be awesome totally unencumbered swinging bachelor guy, you're going to be a divorced father of two. You will still have a lot of the financial and familial responsibilities you currently have.
Splitting up will not create a time machine back to before you got married. It will not fix every life issue you have. It will just mean that you no longer live with your wife. It may very well be that not living with her would improve your life so drastically that it's worth it to cut line and get out ASAP. Or it may be that you are assigning blame for many concerns and problems you have to this one thing, and changing that one thing would not solve as much stuff as you are assuming it will. Nobody else can know that.
But I do think you are pretty into a narrative where you are essentially a blameless victim who got suckered into a bad marriage, and maybe it's the guilt telling you to think those things, as though it will be easier to leave if you become really convinced that this is Her Fault. But I don't think, if what you want is to get out of your marriage in a reasonably clean and human way, that the blamey narrative will help you get clear on what you want to do. I would try to stop focusing on things your wife has done wrong and start focusing on what exactly you think would be better if you weren't married, and mull that over for a while. And try to be very honest with yourself about those issues. (I would find a therapist helpful for working through this kind of thing, but YMMV.)
posted by thehmsbeagle at 4:09 PM on September 29, 2011 [37 favorites]
I think the situation is very complicated generally. However, if and when you pursue divorce . . .
- Alimony. I don't want to pay. I feel like I have given enough, and I don't want to give more. I will be generous with child support though.
Crappy move. She spent the past fifteen years--since high school!--raising your children rather than educating herself and being in the workforce. Situations like yours are the reason that alimony exists.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:09 PM on September 29, 2011 [127 favorites]
- Alimony. I don't want to pay. I feel like I have given enough, and I don't want to give more. I will be generous with child support though.
Crappy move. She spent the past fifteen years--since high school!--raising your children rather than educating herself and being in the workforce. Situations like yours are the reason that alimony exists.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 4:09 PM on September 29, 2011 [127 favorites]
You have every right to leave her. But I think that if you do it after she's going to therapy and knuckling down and doing good work, but before you do the same, then it's a pretty dick move. Until you come to peace with the way your marriage began, you're not going to be able to do a good job of ending it without a lot of unnecessary drama that WILL hurt your kids. Give it six months of therapy on your own for sure, and possibly together, before you pull the trigger.
Full disclosure: I'm super-conservative when it comes to marriage; I believe that vows are important and not to be disregarded. I don't think divorce is wrong or anything, and it might well be the right thing to do here, but I think you owe your wife more of an effort than you are currently making.
posted by KathrynT at 4:10 PM on September 29, 2011 [15 favorites]
Full disclosure: I'm super-conservative when it comes to marriage; I believe that vows are important and not to be disregarded. I don't think divorce is wrong or anything, and it might well be the right thing to do here, but I think you owe your wife more of an effort than you are currently making.
posted by KathrynT at 4:10 PM on September 29, 2011 [15 favorites]
Just be honest, show her your post. She knows it all anyway. Just see what her reaction is, then you will know what to do.
Be nice and prepare her, but don't sugarcoat and don't make excuses.
posted by Kronur at 4:10 PM on September 29, 2011
Be nice and prepare her, but don't sugarcoat and don't make excuses.
posted by Kronur at 4:10 PM on September 29, 2011
I think that on some level divorce is always selfish in that at some point in a relationship you need to put your own needs first. The real question is whether or not that's acceptable selfishness and whether that's a course of action that's going to make your life better.
It seems like you have a metric ton of resentment toward your wife and whether or not you stay with her that's something you need to work through because it isn't good for either of you. I think you need to make the choice, because it seems right now you're living in limbo and work to make the best of whats going to be a difficult situation either way.
posted by SpaceWarp13 at 4:10 PM on September 29, 2011
It seems like you have a metric ton of resentment toward your wife and whether or not you stay with her that's something you need to work through because it isn't good for either of you. I think you need to make the choice, because it seems right now you're living in limbo and work to make the best of whats going to be a difficult situation either way.
posted by SpaceWarp13 at 4:10 PM on September 29, 2011
Let her find someone who really loves her. But yea, you're gonna have to pay alimony.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:11 PM on September 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:11 PM on September 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
Oh yeah, and don't even be trying to get out of alimony. She worked without pay for your family for fifteen years; the lost opportunity cost of that is HUGE.
posted by KathrynT at 4:11 PM on September 29, 2011 [30 favorites]
posted by KathrynT at 4:11 PM on September 29, 2011 [30 favorites]
Does it matter if you're being a selfish prick? The relationship has a lot of bad stuff in it and it's over for you, and you don't want to work to try to bring it back, and I'm not sure you could even if you wanted to.
No one can know if you'll ever be happy. That's an existential and/or therapy question. You don't want to be with her, and maybe you never did. It's not really best for anyone for you to stay in that situation.
posted by J. Wilson at 4:16 PM on September 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
No one can know if you'll ever be happy. That's an existential and/or therapy question. You don't want to be with her, and maybe you never did. It's not really best for anyone for you to stay in that situation.
posted by J. Wilson at 4:16 PM on September 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
The kids. I want to be a good father, and I don't know how to make that work if we are not together.
Well, you better study up. Because if you leave the marriage, and then decide that you aren't equipped to be a father (even an average one), then the kids have been abandoned twice.
Are you a good father now? Or just as part of a team? You're still on the team, you're just not going home on the same bus. Family counseling might be very wise. Or therapy for the kids.
You might leave your wife, but don't even think about leaving your kids--unless you want to make the selfish prick thing come true.
posted by Ideefixe at 4:26 PM on September 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Well, you better study up. Because if you leave the marriage, and then decide that you aren't equipped to be a father (even an average one), then the kids have been abandoned twice.
Are you a good father now? Or just as part of a team? You're still on the team, you're just not going home on the same bus. Family counseling might be very wise. Or therapy for the kids.
You might leave your wife, but don't even think about leaving your kids--unless you want to make the selfish prick thing come true.
posted by Ideefixe at 4:26 PM on September 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
For you, the marriage is over. So that's it. The next step is divorce. There's no Bad Guy. Sometimes marriages don't work out. Yours didn't. There's no Bad Guy....
.....EXCEPT. You seem really invested in making your ex wife the Bad Guy. Simultaneously, you abdicate your responsibility regarding your actions, and the free will you've exercised, over the last 15 years of your life. These perceptions of your wife and your life are related.
You can divorce her, but you won't be free and feeling better until you accept that you 100% participated in every good and bad thing that has happened in your life over the last 15 years.
I think it's a shame for your kids that you are mentally dumping all of this on her. Especially since your perception is not reality.
Therapy. Good luck.
(In short, YES, the way you've laid this out makes you into a "selfish prick" - but definitely not in the way you meant when you wrote your question! People who play the martyr card over and over again are the very definition of "selfish." Bring this up in therapy. The person holding you prisoner here is yourself.)
posted by jbenben at 4:27 PM on September 29, 2011 [17 favorites]
.....EXCEPT. You seem really invested in making your ex wife the Bad Guy. Simultaneously, you abdicate your responsibility regarding your actions, and the free will you've exercised, over the last 15 years of your life. These perceptions of your wife and your life are related.
You can divorce her, but you won't be free and feeling better until you accept that you 100% participated in every good and bad thing that has happened in your life over the last 15 years.
I think it's a shame for your kids that you are mentally dumping all of this on her. Especially since your perception is not reality.
Therapy. Good luck.
(In short, YES, the way you've laid this out makes you into a "selfish prick" - but definitely not in the way you meant when you wrote your question! People who play the martyr card over and over again are the very definition of "selfish." Bring this up in therapy. The person holding you prisoner here is yourself.)
posted by jbenben at 4:27 PM on September 29, 2011 [17 favorites]
The bad:
- There has been an imbalance in responsibility. I work full time, do almost all of the cooking, and about half the cleaning.
She works full-time raising your children; why shouldn't you be cleaning your own damn house at least half the time?
Look, I've never been married, and I think people above have said things in a much nicer way than I would if I went on, but I will say this: sometimes people leave relationships for their own good, and sometimes they leave for their partner's own good. I'm not sure you would be in the former category if you went through with this, which might mean you should do it.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 4:29 PM on September 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
- There has been an imbalance in responsibility. I work full time, do almost all of the cooking, and about half the cleaning.
She works full-time raising your children; why shouldn't you be cleaning your own damn house at least half the time?
Look, I've never been married, and I think people above have said things in a much nicer way than I would if I went on, but I will say this: sometimes people leave relationships for their own good, and sometimes they leave for their partner's own good. I'm not sure you would be in the former category if you went through with this, which might mean you should do it.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 4:29 PM on September 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
I had an experience very similar to Metasyntactic's. Dad moved out, dad got remarried, but he has always been supportive of his first family. Mom had some issues and had trouble getting a job, Dad gave us more than he owed based on the divorce agreement. He always made sure to see us every weekend and when he got a job transfer he paid to move us closer to him. He was always there when we called him and he came to our plays/swim meets/etc. Sure, divorce is no fun for kids, but we were better off. No more screaming and yelling and constant tension. My parents got married for all the wrong reasons, they got divorced because their life together sucked. Mistakes were made, but divorce wasn't one of them.
posted by melissam at 4:39 PM on September 29, 2011 [8 favorites]
posted by melissam at 4:39 PM on September 29, 2011 [8 favorites]
You also need to let go of resenting her. Being stingy on alimony WILL punish your children. She is their mother is there is nothing you can do to change that. Seeing her in rags and tatters will mess up your children's lives, even if they live with you.
posted by melissam at 4:41 PM on September 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by melissam at 4:41 PM on September 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
You got your wife pregnant, and decided to marry her. She raised your kids and probably spent years with low self-esteem and self doubt which prevented her from returning to school.
So, be kind to her, and be kind to yourself.
It sounds like a hellish situation for your kids (living in separate rooms, crashing cars, throwing stuff), so it's probably best to split up.
If you can do this in a controlled way (ie, a controlled crash) it would be best.
posted by KokuRyu at 4:57 PM on September 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
So, be kind to her, and be kind to yourself.
It sounds like a hellish situation for your kids (living in separate rooms, crashing cars, throwing stuff), so it's probably best to split up.
If you can do this in a controlled way (ie, a controlled crash) it would be best.
posted by KokuRyu at 4:57 PM on September 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
You need to get out, and get full custody of the kids; she may be 'trying' to be a good mother, but the abuse is a giant red flag: if you were to leave without the kids, there's a good possibility she'd transfer that anger from you to them. From your description the marriage is over; staying --- whether until your wife gets a job or some other false deadline --- won't help.
posted by easily confused at 4:58 PM on September 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by easily confused at 4:58 PM on September 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Your wife got her degree a full ten years after you did? Was that possibly because she was raising the children during that time?
If you want to leave, then leave. Based on your current actions you already have to some extent, but please at least man up and admit that you had a part in the degradation of your marriage.
There are three sides to every story: his side, her side, and the truth.
Not saying that you are lying, just that you are biased. At least admit that to yourself and children when you walk out that door.
posted by Shouraku at 5:12 PM on September 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
If you want to leave, then leave. Based on your current actions you already have to some extent, but please at least man up and admit that you had a part in the degradation of your marriage.
There are three sides to every story: his side, her side, and the truth.
Not saying that you are lying, just that you are biased. At least admit that to yourself and children when you walk out that door.
posted by Shouraku at 5:12 PM on September 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
If you go through my posting history, you'll find that I am extraordinarily sensitive to father's issues. There's a lot of good info there, too, if you have time.
I've gotta tell you in all honesty - you need to let the resentment towards your wife go.
You're right, you have a lot to be angry about, and it is valid as far as it goes. You have some valid complaints. But, it's water under the bridge now, and you need to look forward. Don't build your future on your past. Start your new life with a clean slate.
If you want a do over, then make it a full do over.
I won't promise it will be easy, but I will promise your life will be better for it.
You've got your head on mostly straight - I can tell you've thought a lot about it. And I know when you're as lost in the woods as you are, not much seems right. You have good instincts. Don't let your emotions cloud them.
Look, your wife is trying to change how she is to meet your needs, and although it seems too little too late - think about how terrified and scared and insecure you have to be to do that. She needs your compassion - all you've got and then some. You're probably right - a divorce is warranted. Only time can tell if divorce is a mistake and even then you might never know. I sure as hell can't tell you. Weigh your choices and then be decisive.
Your children will grow to model your behavior here. Handle this the way you would want them to be taught to. Be the better human, at all times.
I don't envy you, and I do feel your pain. If you need to, memail me. There is no way this is going to be easy, no matter what you choose. Keep your chin up, and stay positive. This isn't the end of all things, it is only a change.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 5:20 PM on September 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
I've gotta tell you in all honesty - you need to let the resentment towards your wife go.
You're right, you have a lot to be angry about, and it is valid as far as it goes. You have some valid complaints. But, it's water under the bridge now, and you need to look forward. Don't build your future on your past. Start your new life with a clean slate.
If you want a do over, then make it a full do over.
I won't promise it will be easy, but I will promise your life will be better for it.
You've got your head on mostly straight - I can tell you've thought a lot about it. And I know when you're as lost in the woods as you are, not much seems right. You have good instincts. Don't let your emotions cloud them.
Look, your wife is trying to change how she is to meet your needs, and although it seems too little too late - think about how terrified and scared and insecure you have to be to do that. She needs your compassion - all you've got and then some. You're probably right - a divorce is warranted. Only time can tell if divorce is a mistake and even then you might never know. I sure as hell can't tell you. Weigh your choices and then be decisive.
Your children will grow to model your behavior here. Handle this the way you would want them to be taught to. Be the better human, at all times.
I don't envy you, and I do feel your pain. If you need to, memail me. There is no way this is going to be easy, no matter what you choose. Keep your chin up, and stay positive. This isn't the end of all things, it is only a change.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 5:20 PM on September 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
Should I just give up, go back to my wife, and live the next 50 years in quiet desperation? Is she right, will I grow to love her again with enough therapy?
No, a marriage should never be "giving up". Have you given any therapy a try? You're obviously already gone, emotionally, but before you pull the trigger, try some individual therapy if you haven't. People are harshing on you (sometimes rightfully) for your attitudes - therapy will help you examine them, get more cool with yourself, and move on in the kindest, best way for you, your kids, and your wife.
It gets better. Don't give up. Prepare to be happier, but it'll be harder first.
posted by ldthomps at 5:20 PM on September 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
No, a marriage should never be "giving up". Have you given any therapy a try? You're obviously already gone, emotionally, but before you pull the trigger, try some individual therapy if you haven't. People are harshing on you (sometimes rightfully) for your attitudes - therapy will help you examine them, get more cool with yourself, and move on in the kindest, best way for you, your kids, and your wife.
It gets better. Don't give up. Prepare to be happier, but it'll be harder first.
posted by ldthomps at 5:20 PM on September 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
I hate when the hivemind gets hivemindy, but I have to chime in with others that you are diminishing what she's brought to the table. My initial sense is that most of this is you midlifecrisis-ing (wanting out for other women, flirting with the female friend, thinking the good life is out there somewhere) and resenting her, which is all work that you need to do for yourself instead of blaming her. I think what you need is a break from the marriage, because you need a breather. But a divorce won't make you any happier, because you sound unhappy with yourself and your choices instead of with her.
My philosophy is that life ain't easy, and when you make a vow, you stick it through thick and thin. My guess is that you're tired and need some space to clear your head.
posted by elif at 5:25 PM on September 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
My philosophy is that life ain't easy, and when you make a vow, you stick it through thick and thin. My guess is that you're tired and need some space to clear your head.
posted by elif at 5:25 PM on September 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
One thing you need to make 1000000% sure of is that your children never, ever, EVER get even an inkling that a major cause of your unhappiness is the fact that they exist.
You may not realize it, but by vilifying your wife for having the audacity to get pregnant and keep the baby, you're blaming your children, or at least your first child, for a large portion of your unhappiness. Or at least that might be the way your children end up understanding the problem -- that's how I felt when I found out I was an unplanned and resented baby.
posted by palomar at 5:38 PM on September 29, 2011 [38 favorites]
You may not realize it, but by vilifying your wife for having the audacity to get pregnant and keep the baby, you're blaming your children, or at least your first child, for a large portion of your unhappiness. Or at least that might be the way your children end up understanding the problem -- that's how I felt when I found out I was an unplanned and resented baby.
posted by palomar at 5:38 PM on September 29, 2011 [38 favorites]
The short answer is, "your framing of this problem, from the martyrdom to the responsibility sloughing, to the consequence avoiding, you certainly sound like a jerk. Fear not! You can turn this around!
Are you in therapy for yourself? I tried to focus on your whole question, but there's so much listing going on, and my brain is fried after a long day. I ask because being emotionally or physically abusive is beyond the pale, and you are right to point out that it is happening to you. There is a lot of other stuff here that you are clearly deeply unhappy about, and a lot of it doesn't sound like it's all her fault, though you seem to be trying very hard to frame it as though it is. Therapy can help you sort out what you have control over and what you don't.
Couples counseling will not work unless/until the abuse stops.
- She worked very little (some but not much) and mostly took care of the kids.
This characterization of your wife is the part of your question that gets me stirred up. Taking care of kids is very hard work. Emotionally and physically. Finding childcare can be difficult and expensive. She has lost 15 years of her working life. Regardless of how good you think she was at keeping house and mothering, she was working at it. I'm a single woman, sexual abuse survivor and I'll be graduating with my BA this December (knock wood), 12 years after graduating high school, and I don't have children. So don't make that slow progress a failing of hers, because sexual abuse has a lot of far reaching effects, especially when you don't feel like you can trust your partner enough to even tell them it happened.
Additionally taking ten years to graduate from college is not that uncommon. From this website, the national graduation within six years is only about 55%, in Alaska it's just over a quarter, and even the "best" state doesn't even get all the way to 70%. This map shows what percentage of high school graduates go to college right after graduating. There is other interesting policy stuff on that website.
posted by bilabial at 6:55 PM on September 29, 2011 [8 favorites]
Are you in therapy for yourself? I tried to focus on your whole question, but there's so much listing going on, and my brain is fried after a long day. I ask because being emotionally or physically abusive is beyond the pale, and you are right to point out that it is happening to you. There is a lot of other stuff here that you are clearly deeply unhappy about, and a lot of it doesn't sound like it's all her fault, though you seem to be trying very hard to frame it as though it is. Therapy can help you sort out what you have control over and what you don't.
Couples counseling will not work unless/until the abuse stops.
- She worked very little (some but not much) and mostly took care of the kids.
This characterization of your wife is the part of your question that gets me stirred up. Taking care of kids is very hard work. Emotionally and physically. Finding childcare can be difficult and expensive. She has lost 15 years of her working life. Regardless of how good you think she was at keeping house and mothering, she was working at it. I'm a single woman, sexual abuse survivor and I'll be graduating with my BA this December (knock wood), 12 years after graduating high school, and I don't have children. So don't make that slow progress a failing of hers, because sexual abuse has a lot of far reaching effects, especially when you don't feel like you can trust your partner enough to even tell them it happened.
Additionally taking ten years to graduate from college is not that uncommon. From this website, the national graduation within six years is only about 55%, in Alaska it's just over a quarter, and even the "best" state doesn't even get all the way to 70%. This map shows what percentage of high school graduates go to college right after graduating. There is other interesting policy stuff on that website.
posted by bilabial at 6:55 PM on September 29, 2011 [8 favorites]
child of two divorced people here, i was about the age of your children. better to have at least one happy parent than no happy parents. i get annoyed when people say "what about the kids?" as if it's a choice between a happy household and divorce. by the time the parents get to considering a divorce, it's more like a choice between a dysfunctional household and potentially two less dysfunctional households.
get a divorce. it sounds like you want to do the right thing for your kids, so please do that. be there for them in a material sense and in a personal sense.
posted by cupcake1337 at 7:20 PM on September 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
get a divorce. it sounds like you want to do the right thing for your kids, so please do that. be there for them in a material sense and in a personal sense.
posted by cupcake1337 at 7:20 PM on September 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
You mentioned that last year she told you about the abusive stepfather and that "one year ago" you had a big fight, etc. I just wonder how connected her revealing her history of that abuse she suffered, and your withdrawal from the marriage might be. At the very least, it sounds like she has been struggling with a pretty heavy load both emotionally and physically.
You have been able to finish school, improve your employment status and make yourself more attractive and she has been trying to be a good mother, despite her own mother's bad example, and working to finish school which she has finally done.
I don't think you are seeing this as clearly as you should. Please get some counseling and figure out how you are going to accomplish what you want in life without being both unfair and unkind to your wife and children. You might be making a mistake.
posted by Anitanola at 7:45 PM on September 29, 2011 [14 favorites]
You have been able to finish school, improve your employment status and make yourself more attractive and she has been trying to be a good mother, despite her own mother's bad example, and working to finish school which she has finally done.
I don't think you are seeing this as clearly as you should. Please get some counseling and figure out how you are going to accomplish what you want in life without being both unfair and unkind to your wife and children. You might be making a mistake.
posted by Anitanola at 7:45 PM on September 29, 2011 [14 favorites]
Quit with the OKCupid surfing, quit emailing your fantasy friend across the country, and actually try to work this out. If you leave this marriage, it will harder than you think, on you, your wife, and your kids. (I have had a couple of friends say they wished they knew how awful it would be to get divorced, because then they would have tried harder.)
So make sure you know what you are doing. Go to couples counseling, together, and really, actually, sincerely try. Work through this and see if you can come to a decision together.
Remember that getting divorced is no guarantee of more sex or kinky sex.
posted by bluedaisy at 8:12 PM on September 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
So make sure you know what you are doing. Go to couples counseling, together, and really, actually, sincerely try. Work through this and see if you can come to a decision together.
Remember that getting divorced is no guarantee of more sex or kinky sex.
posted by bluedaisy at 8:12 PM on September 29, 2011 [4 favorites]
...."Quiet desperation"? Really?
Anyone who'd tell you to live in quiet desperation is full of it.
Sometimes I feel these things are grey, but this isn't. This whole 'selfishness' thing is such bullshit. People throw that word around, but they don't know what it means to value yourself, and therefore they don't know what it means to value others. Valuing yourself is the only way you can value others. People who easily call either themselves or others selfish generally don't value either themselves or (therefore) others.
Okay, that's harsh, but I'm kind of tired of that word, personally.
Anyway, go ahead and leave your wife and be a good dad and fight the alimony, and suck it up if you can't escape, 'cause $$ < sanity, so it's worth it. Go out and date, have fun, relax, etc. And next time don't marry someone who blackmails you.
posted by reenka at 8:29 PM on September 29, 2011
Anyone who'd tell you to live in quiet desperation is full of it.
Sometimes I feel these things are grey, but this isn't. This whole 'selfishness' thing is such bullshit. People throw that word around, but they don't know what it means to value yourself, and therefore they don't know what it means to value others. Valuing yourself is the only way you can value others. People who easily call either themselves or others selfish generally don't value either themselves or (therefore) others.
Okay, that's harsh, but I'm kind of tired of that word, personally.
Anyway, go ahead and leave your wife and be a good dad and fight the alimony, and suck it up if you can't escape, 'cause $$ < sanity, so it's worth it. Go out and date, have fun, relax, etc. And next time don't marry someone who blackmails you.
posted by reenka at 8:29 PM on September 29, 2011
Mod note: less tough love, more helpful please.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:45 PM on September 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:45 PM on September 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
I think you should really heavily consider that a 10-year-old is at serious risk of being emotionally damaged by having their father leave. If your home has remained a relatively calm, stable place despite your relationship problems, then you might want to consider giving up your wants until your younger child is a few years older.
posted by mudlark at 8:48 PM on September 29, 2011
posted by mudlark at 8:48 PM on September 29, 2011
Anitanola- I was wondering about the timing of her sex abuse disclosure, too.
OP, all of you need big hugs and some time at the beach. I am so sorry you all are going through so much.
posted by small_ruminant at 8:49 PM on September 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
OP, all of you need big hugs and some time at the beach. I am so sorry you all are going through so much.
posted by small_ruminant at 8:49 PM on September 29, 2011 [3 favorites]
Also, maybe you should try to reorder your thinking and try to be thankful that your wife kept your child? Maybe that could be a first step toward a workable situation.
posted by mudlark at 8:50 PM on September 29, 2011 [6 favorites]
posted by mudlark at 8:50 PM on September 29, 2011 [6 favorites]
I strongly recommend that you read Mom's House, Dad's House. You may think that you don't need this information until you decide to divorce but this book gives you a model for how to make a divorce that is as healthy as possible for your children. Read it asap as you think about what you want to do. Divorce does necessairly mean walking out on your children or abandoning them - you are still their father!! And you will have life long relationship with your wife as she will still be the mother of your children, even if the marriage is dissolved.
posted by metahawk at 9:02 PM on September 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by metahawk at 9:02 PM on September 29, 2011 [2 favorites]
This isn't about you, it isn't even about her, it's about your kids. Stay married and help look after them. Your kids come first, your wife comes second and you have to be a grown up.
posted by joannemullen at 9:29 PM on September 29, 2011
posted by joannemullen at 9:29 PM on September 29, 2011
So now she is trying but you aren't because you feel like she trapped you into marriage fifteen years ago?
You have kids and they come first. Unless you guys are screaming at each other every day, it is better for them that you stay together. Drop the OK Cupid and the emailing the friend, because those behaviors help you keep your head in the wrong place. Get some therapy and work on your marriage--at least for a couple of years. If you still want to leave when the youngest is in high school that might be all right.
posted by LarryC at 9:34 PM on September 29, 2011
You have kids and they come first. Unless you guys are screaming at each other every day, it is better for them that you stay together. Drop the OK Cupid and the emailing the friend, because those behaviors help you keep your head in the wrong place. Get some therapy and work on your marriage--at least for a couple of years. If you still want to leave when the youngest is in high school that might be all right.
posted by LarryC at 9:34 PM on September 29, 2011
(I have had a couple of friends say they wished they knew how awful it would be to get divorced, because then they would have tried harder.)
....and I have many friends who say that while it was hard, divorce was the best decision they ever made and they don't regret it for a moment.
Stay married and help look after them.
Better divorced parents who are healthier and happier than parents stuck together in a loveless sham of a tension-filled marriage just because some people think it's the 'right' thing to do. That's a horrible lesson for the children to grow up with, and setting them up the model it themselves once they are adults. Hell, they know what's going on. Don't kid yourself that they don't. They're not 3.
Buck up and pay alimony. Don't distance yourself from your childrens' lives. Learn (through therapy or whatever works for you) to let the past go because pointing fingers isn't going to heal you or her or the relationship.
Good luck.
posted by Windigo at 9:36 PM on September 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
....and I have many friends who say that while it was hard, divorce was the best decision they ever made and they don't regret it for a moment.
Stay married and help look after them.
Better divorced parents who are healthier and happier than parents stuck together in a loveless sham of a tension-filled marriage just because some people think it's the 'right' thing to do. That's a horrible lesson for the children to grow up with, and setting them up the model it themselves once they are adults. Hell, they know what's going on. Don't kid yourself that they don't. They're not 3.
Buck up and pay alimony. Don't distance yourself from your childrens' lives. Learn (through therapy or whatever works for you) to let the past go because pointing fingers isn't going to heal you or her or the relationship.
Good luck.
posted by Windigo at 9:36 PM on September 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Better divorced parents who are healthier and happier than parents stuck together in a loveless sham of a tension-filled marriage just because some people think it's the 'right' thing to do.
People often tell themselves that when they want to get a divorce but I don't think it is true.
posted by LarryC at 9:38 PM on September 29, 2011
People often tell themselves that when they want to get a divorce but I don't think it is true.
posted by LarryC at 9:38 PM on September 29, 2011
The complications:
- The kids. This is very rough on them, and that breaks my heart.
- The kids. I want to be a good father, and I don't know how to make that work if we are not together.
Speaking as a child from a crappy marriage, your kids are old enough that they know your marriage is bad and you live in the spare bedroom, and it's just as rough on them to watch parents they know aren't happy together as it is to go through a divorce.
How do you be a good father? You tell them you want to see them as often as possible and mean it. You are extremely clear that your problems with your wife are YOUR problems as a couple and don't affect how you feel about them. You demonstrate the best, kindest, most amicable way two people who have made an irrevocable lifelong commitment towards children can split up. You are their role model. Think very hard about what you are modeling to them about relationships and how to treat people. Think about how you want to demonstrate that not being in love with someone anymore doesn't equal "complete freedom from this 15-year life and family I created".
Do you plan or assume that your kids will primarily live with your wife? If so, reconsider alimony for their sake. Child support is not enough to keep a family afloat. If you leave and she has to enter the work force after 15 years away, it may take months for her to find work. What will she live off in the meantime? Do you want to model to your children that as soon as you leave the welfare of their mother (that they may still live with) doesn't concern you at all anymore? Does your wife have health insurance through your job? She will lose that if you leave.
She has not been "working very little" the past 15 years - she made a choice to invest her labor into your family and home, based on a legal commitment that you were a joint unit. Without that labor, you'd have paid thousands of dollars for child care by now. Alimony is one way of making sure that you each exit your legal contract on a level-ish playing field.
posted by nakedmolerats at 9:47 PM on September 29, 2011 [10 favorites]
- The kids. This is very rough on them, and that breaks my heart.
- The kids. I want to be a good father, and I don't know how to make that work if we are not together.
Speaking as a child from a crappy marriage, your kids are old enough that they know your marriage is bad and you live in the spare bedroom, and it's just as rough on them to watch parents they know aren't happy together as it is to go through a divorce.
How do you be a good father? You tell them you want to see them as often as possible and mean it. You are extremely clear that your problems with your wife are YOUR problems as a couple and don't affect how you feel about them. You demonstrate the best, kindest, most amicable way two people who have made an irrevocable lifelong commitment towards children can split up. You are their role model. Think very hard about what you are modeling to them about relationships and how to treat people. Think about how you want to demonstrate that not being in love with someone anymore doesn't equal "complete freedom from this 15-year life and family I created".
Do you plan or assume that your kids will primarily live with your wife? If so, reconsider alimony for their sake. Child support is not enough to keep a family afloat. If you leave and she has to enter the work force after 15 years away, it may take months for her to find work. What will she live off in the meantime? Do you want to model to your children that as soon as you leave the welfare of their mother (that they may still live with) doesn't concern you at all anymore? Does your wife have health insurance through your job? She will lose that if you leave.
She has not been "working very little" the past 15 years - she made a choice to invest her labor into your family and home, based on a legal commitment that you were a joint unit. Without that labor, you'd have paid thousands of dollars for child care by now. Alimony is one way of making sure that you each exit your legal contract on a level-ish playing field.
posted by nakedmolerats at 9:47 PM on September 29, 2011 [10 favorites]
You know what they say about grass looking greener on the other side of the fence? Take careful stock of how much of your decision you may basing on that grass, because there are no guarantees once you get over there.
posted by bunji at 10:56 PM on September 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by bunji at 10:56 PM on September 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
Hi OP, the timing of her sexual abuse disclosure is very curious, considering the timing of the big fight. And then there's this...
- I left the next day, in a heavy emotional state, but got in a car wreck leaving, and went back very shaken.
I can see why you want to leave. This is a very scary wake-up call of how little support you've had for your own mental health in all of this. This not a fun place to see yourself in -- not for you or your kids.
That said, what others have said about no promise of new-borders-pushing sex or awesome chick friend is true. Divorce will help preserve your mental health as a quickfix solution, but before you hit abort, consider this: you have spent 15 years with a wonderful but tortured woman who is struggling with her mental health. Do not underestimate how this struggle has affected you as well -- in the sense that leaving the relationship will not automatically undo all the damage that has been passed on to you, including her abuse issues. Chances are you're going to carry a lot of behaviors forward that you learned from cohabiting with your wife for 15 years; some may be benign, some may come up again down the road much to your chagrin. It's hard to say (though AWESOME you're on top of the game in getting therapy for yourself already).
IANAD, but I am an incest survivor. With the right support your wife is likely to be a very, very beautiful person who's been waiting to emerge in a safe environment for many years now -- even more beautiful than your best memories of her. It really sucks that she could not have gotten help before so much damage was done... but.... BUT........... maybe that's what she had to go through in order to connect with the trauma that has clearly been haunting her. This kind of trauma IS a process; the more you learn about it, the more you realize how actually predictable the process is -- including your wife's experiences and behaviors these past couple years.
Please consider educating yourself on incest (yes, it's still incest even though her perpetrator was not her biological father; being a step-parent doesn't make it any less of an adult-child power violation). Please seek out what resources there are for spouses of incest survivors. Know that what she is going through now does not necessarily spell the end of your relationship. But understand this too: as her partner of 15 years, there's going to be a lot of healing and growing work for you also. You have suffered alongside her. That's part of the psychic disease of incest, and what makes it so gross and violating -- how deeply it permeates not just the core of the survivor, but also those she loves down the road through her unrealized self-hatred.
Chances are when your wife's therapist deems her strong enough, you would be more than welcome to participate in her recovery process. There is certainly a place for spouses in the healing process, so you don't have to be excluded from the intense growth your wife is likely starting to experience. What seems like the end of the road is actually the start of a very rich journey -- one that I wish your wife the best of luck on. If you can make headway on your resentments towards her, consider traveling this road with her a little further. That said, only you can decide if it's still too little, too late. Best of luck!
posted by human ecologist at 10:57 PM on September 29, 2011 [7 favorites]
- I left the next day, in a heavy emotional state, but got in a car wreck leaving, and went back very shaken.
I can see why you want to leave. This is a very scary wake-up call of how little support you've had for your own mental health in all of this. This not a fun place to see yourself in -- not for you or your kids.
That said, what others have said about no promise of new-borders-pushing sex or awesome chick friend is true. Divorce will help preserve your mental health as a quickfix solution, but before you hit abort, consider this: you have spent 15 years with a wonderful but tortured woman who is struggling with her mental health. Do not underestimate how this struggle has affected you as well -- in the sense that leaving the relationship will not automatically undo all the damage that has been passed on to you, including her abuse issues. Chances are you're going to carry a lot of behaviors forward that you learned from cohabiting with your wife for 15 years; some may be benign, some may come up again down the road much to your chagrin. It's hard to say (though AWESOME you're on top of the game in getting therapy for yourself already).
IANAD, but I am an incest survivor. With the right support your wife is likely to be a very, very beautiful person who's been waiting to emerge in a safe environment for many years now -- even more beautiful than your best memories of her. It really sucks that she could not have gotten help before so much damage was done... but.... BUT........... maybe that's what she had to go through in order to connect with the trauma that has clearly been haunting her. This kind of trauma IS a process; the more you learn about it, the more you realize how actually predictable the process is -- including your wife's experiences and behaviors these past couple years.
Please consider educating yourself on incest (yes, it's still incest even though her perpetrator was not her biological father; being a step-parent doesn't make it any less of an adult-child power violation). Please seek out what resources there are for spouses of incest survivors. Know that what she is going through now does not necessarily spell the end of your relationship. But understand this too: as her partner of 15 years, there's going to be a lot of healing and growing work for you also. You have suffered alongside her. That's part of the psychic disease of incest, and what makes it so gross and violating -- how deeply it permeates not just the core of the survivor, but also those she loves down the road through her unrealized self-hatred.
Chances are when your wife's therapist deems her strong enough, you would be more than welcome to participate in her recovery process. There is certainly a place for spouses in the healing process, so you don't have to be excluded from the intense growth your wife is likely starting to experience. What seems like the end of the road is actually the start of a very rich journey -- one that I wish your wife the best of luck on. If you can make headway on your resentments towards her, consider traveling this road with her a little further. That said, only you can decide if it's still too little, too late. Best of luck!
posted by human ecologist at 10:57 PM on September 29, 2011 [7 favorites]
Ok, I feel some sort of responsibility to try again and/or restate things more articulately, because of the heavily skewed direction of the responses so far. I think by framing it in terms of responsibility to family vs selfishness, you sort of guarantee the nature of the advice, in a way, however. Most people you'll see around you will not encourage you to shirk your responsibilities regardless of whether this will lead you to personal happiness, because 'responsibility' is what keeps society together, and 'personal happiness' is this nebulous, uncertain and fluffy thing that most people never achieve no matter what they do, so many people don't really believe in it, since they don't experience it. Even so, it's the sort of thing we (in the US) 'work at' through therapy/etc, and the 'working' at it tends to actually be more valued than the having it. Therefore, many people will tell you that you haven't worked at it hard enough no matter how hard or how long you've worked, in part because it's a self-fulfilling prophecy: if you'd only worked hard enough, naturally it'd be better by now. Thefore you haven't worked hard enough yet.
Honestly, you already know (on some level)-- as most people know-- that therapy won't make you love someone. It's the kind of thing people don't like knowing, so therefore they pretend they don't know it. But it's true. The point of therapy is a) knowing yourself; b) fixing problematic behaviors. Your feelings aren't problematic unless they prevent you from living your life, and they also aren't behaviors, per se. Feelings as such can't be 'fixed' nor cured, thankfully. Love (or the lack thereof) isn't a disease. In other words, if you stay, give up on love, basically. Some people (only you know if this is you) can live with that, and further, some think they have to.
You ask if you're selfish. Wanting to feel fulfilled, to feel alive, to pursue your own happiness-- well, that is selfish. We are selfish creatures, we human beings. Your wife, too, has been quite selfish (threatening suicide to manipulate others is a great big red flag of selfishness). Your children-- being only typical children-- are naturally selfish. It's easy to demonize selfishness, or to say that it doesn't matter when the selfish person does something saintly for a living (like being a mother) or is naturally angelic (like being a child). But children aren't angels, and neither are mothers, and neither are fathers. It's ok to be a flawed human being who fails at things. So if you have failed at this marriage, that is ok. Accept this, and minimize the impact. Pretending you haven't failed for the kids doesn't make your living in a spare room not be the reality-- it only means that your kids will be more in tune with reality than you.
There's this tendency to make divorce a black and white issue in regards to children-- either they're better off with happier parents (there's that word, happiness, again), or they're traumatized and forever scarred by divorce. I don't think either is true. Your kids-- being kids-- won't likely be mature enough for awhile to get it that you're happy and that makes it all ok, besides the fact that divorce may not make you happy-- and maybe nothing will. Of course, neither are your kids living in so much of a fantasy world that they think everything is ok when you're suddenly living in another room. I mean, my own dad always lived in a separate room from my mom and I thought that was normal, but that's because he was always there, not suddenly moved out. More important than the parental units being together as a couple (for most kids) is giving them attention and love. This is where your kids' natural selfishness will work for you: they don't really care that much whether you're in love with mom or not. It's fine. They don't even want to think about it. What they care about is that you don't do antagonistic things against the other parent that try to pit them against one or the other of you, and that you shower them with attention, support and company. If they feel they are getting a lot of love and support, they will adjust with relative ease. You just have to go out of your way to make the divorce your problem alone; if you do, trust me, they will not try to assume your hidden burdens for you-- that's just not what kids tend to do. Don't flaunt a new girlfriend, don't act too differently, don't move far away, keep some traditions, be friendly with your ex and maybe have joint trips or dinners-- give them a sense of continuity. It's change that's traumatic for kids, but they're also really resilient and if there's support, they're better at dealing with sudden shifts than grown-ups are. It's grown-ups that are emotionally fragile and brittle, not kids. If they can continue to depend on you, that's all that matters.
The thing I really want to communicate is that it's always the right choice to have fully authentic, natural and present relationships with children. They will know if you are strained, not present, distancing, unhappy. This is also true for a marriage-- authenticity is more important than either happiness or responsibility, because it underlies the basis for both. You can't take responsibility for something you don't own. You can't own something you don't feel. You can't feel something you don't live. You have to live your marriage; this sense of commitment isn't something therapy or ethics or internet strangers can cultivate for you, but something that has to come from your bones. People may say 'but why can't you feel this weight', but what use is that? This weight merely weighs you down rather than giving you roots. Therapy may untangle roots or give them water, but it cannot grow them for you or heal ones that withered completely. Only you know if your relationship's roots withered, but that seems to be what you're saying. Being friendly is something you can achieve with a stranger at the bus-stop; not wanting to touch is a bone-deep aversion that requires no language to understand. Your body is telling you 'no'. The mind isn't there to deny that truth, only to mitigate the consequences: that is your responsibility.
posted by reenka at 11:14 PM on September 29, 2011 [9 favorites]
Honestly, you already know (on some level)-- as most people know-- that therapy won't make you love someone. It's the kind of thing people don't like knowing, so therefore they pretend they don't know it. But it's true. The point of therapy is a) knowing yourself; b) fixing problematic behaviors. Your feelings aren't problematic unless they prevent you from living your life, and they also aren't behaviors, per se. Feelings as such can't be 'fixed' nor cured, thankfully. Love (or the lack thereof) isn't a disease. In other words, if you stay, give up on love, basically. Some people (only you know if this is you) can live with that, and further, some think they have to.
You ask if you're selfish. Wanting to feel fulfilled, to feel alive, to pursue your own happiness-- well, that is selfish. We are selfish creatures, we human beings. Your wife, too, has been quite selfish (threatening suicide to manipulate others is a great big red flag of selfishness). Your children-- being only typical children-- are naturally selfish. It's easy to demonize selfishness, or to say that it doesn't matter when the selfish person does something saintly for a living (like being a mother) or is naturally angelic (like being a child). But children aren't angels, and neither are mothers, and neither are fathers. It's ok to be a flawed human being who fails at things. So if you have failed at this marriage, that is ok. Accept this, and minimize the impact. Pretending you haven't failed for the kids doesn't make your living in a spare room not be the reality-- it only means that your kids will be more in tune with reality than you.
There's this tendency to make divorce a black and white issue in regards to children-- either they're better off with happier parents (there's that word, happiness, again), or they're traumatized and forever scarred by divorce. I don't think either is true. Your kids-- being kids-- won't likely be mature enough for awhile to get it that you're happy and that makes it all ok, besides the fact that divorce may not make you happy-- and maybe nothing will. Of course, neither are your kids living in so much of a fantasy world that they think everything is ok when you're suddenly living in another room. I mean, my own dad always lived in a separate room from my mom and I thought that was normal, but that's because he was always there, not suddenly moved out. More important than the parental units being together as a couple (for most kids) is giving them attention and love. This is where your kids' natural selfishness will work for you: they don't really care that much whether you're in love with mom or not. It's fine. They don't even want to think about it. What they care about is that you don't do antagonistic things against the other parent that try to pit them against one or the other of you, and that you shower them with attention, support and company. If they feel they are getting a lot of love and support, they will adjust with relative ease. You just have to go out of your way to make the divorce your problem alone; if you do, trust me, they will not try to assume your hidden burdens for you-- that's just not what kids tend to do. Don't flaunt a new girlfriend, don't act too differently, don't move far away, keep some traditions, be friendly with your ex and maybe have joint trips or dinners-- give them a sense of continuity. It's change that's traumatic for kids, but they're also really resilient and if there's support, they're better at dealing with sudden shifts than grown-ups are. It's grown-ups that are emotionally fragile and brittle, not kids. If they can continue to depend on you, that's all that matters.
The thing I really want to communicate is that it's always the right choice to have fully authentic, natural and present relationships with children. They will know if you are strained, not present, distancing, unhappy. This is also true for a marriage-- authenticity is more important than either happiness or responsibility, because it underlies the basis for both. You can't take responsibility for something you don't own. You can't own something you don't feel. You can't feel something you don't live. You have to live your marriage; this sense of commitment isn't something therapy or ethics or internet strangers can cultivate for you, but something that has to come from your bones. People may say 'but why can't you feel this weight', but what use is that? This weight merely weighs you down rather than giving you roots. Therapy may untangle roots or give them water, but it cannot grow them for you or heal ones that withered completely. Only you know if your relationship's roots withered, but that seems to be what you're saying. Being friendly is something you can achieve with a stranger at the bus-stop; not wanting to touch is a bone-deep aversion that requires no language to understand. Your body is telling you 'no'. The mind isn't there to deny that truth, only to mitigate the consequences: that is your responsibility.
posted by reenka at 11:14 PM on September 29, 2011 [9 favorites]
To answer you question, I would guess that, yes, you are being a selfish prick. It certainly doesn't sound like it has been a smooth ride, but life never is and the vast majority of longterm relationships endure a lot of grief, though they don't always survive it. The fact that your wife has been able to recover so successfully is much more remarkable and rare. But all that aside, the thing that really makes you sound like you're a prick (very appropriate choice of words by the way), is that you've elaborated the most on what a stud you think you've become and how you can't wait to have kinky sex with your hot coworker and the ladies on okcupid. You haven't written two lines about how you feel about your children, but managed to come up with two full paragraphs about all the girls you're missing out on. I'm not judging your morals; I'm just calling a prick a prick. You certainly don't need anyone's approval to leave your wife, but it does seem odd that you stayed through all the hard times and are ready to jump ship just as things are getting better. Oh, and you think your coworker might have sex with you.
posted by defreckled at 11:17 PM on September 29, 2011 [6 favorites]
posted by defreckled at 11:17 PM on September 29, 2011 [6 favorites]
Separate, get into therapy and stay married. Put at least 2-3 years into fixing this relationship which has been a huge part of your life so far, and which you will never be able to completely leave because you have two kids together. If you can reconnect and move on together, you will have a richer stronger marriage than you could find in the next decade. If you leave her, you can hopefully find someone new, but it will be just as hard and take more time.
You don't talk about your kids much. A harmonious divorce is possible, but it's going to be brutal at times for your kids, far harder than parents who went through a rough time and then put in work and forged a great marriage.
Lots of people are going to say oh yeah, chase your own happiness, she's been abusive and you deserve better. So does she, and so do your kids. This isn't a one-winner situation. It's a family and a marriage and you can't make choices for yourself that don't take into account how it will impact your children and your wife unless you don't care about them at all.
None of what you've written can't be fixed with a lot of truth, love and communication. You'll probably have a painful year or two ahead of you, but if you rush into a quick divorce, it's not going to magically fix everything either.
I've been married for coming up to 12 years, with four kids and one more on the way now. We separated twice in our marriage, and the reconciliation and rebuilding has led to a stronger and better marriage with happier kids. I'm sure, given how flawed humans are, that we'll go through more rough patches again, but when it works, marriage gets better and better with time.
posted by viggorlijah at 11:41 PM on September 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
You don't talk about your kids much. A harmonious divorce is possible, but it's going to be brutal at times for your kids, far harder than parents who went through a rough time and then put in work and forged a great marriage.
Lots of people are going to say oh yeah, chase your own happiness, she's been abusive and you deserve better. So does she, and so do your kids. This isn't a one-winner situation. It's a family and a marriage and you can't make choices for yourself that don't take into account how it will impact your children and your wife unless you don't care about them at all.
None of what you've written can't be fixed with a lot of truth, love and communication. You'll probably have a painful year or two ahead of you, but if you rush into a quick divorce, it's not going to magically fix everything either.
I've been married for coming up to 12 years, with four kids and one more on the way now. We separated twice in our marriage, and the reconciliation and rebuilding has led to a stronger and better marriage with happier kids. I'm sure, given how flawed humans are, that we'll go through more rough patches again, but when it works, marriage gets better and better with time.
posted by viggorlijah at 11:41 PM on September 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
OP, you mentioned that you and your wife are both in individual therapy, but I don't see where you mentioned that the two of you have ever gone to couples therapy. If you haven't tried that out, I would HIGHLY recommend it.
You should choose a new therapist, not use either of your individual therapists -- IANAT, and I am not sure if there's a strict ethical boundary that prevents a therapist from seeing a patient both individually and as part of a couple, but it would sure make me uncomfortable to be seeing my partner's therapist for our couples sessions. I'm sure either of your current therapists can recommend someone for you.
I'm not saying that I think you need couples therapy to make you love your wife, or that's going to "cure" you, or whatever. I think you just need to give it a fair shot. If you get in there and you do a few sessions and you feel like it's not helping, then you can bring that up in your sessions. Talk with your wife about your desire to end your marriage, and have your therapist there to help guide the discussion in a way that will cause the least drama and generate the most positive movement, in whatever direction is best for the entire family.
And if you get in there and you have a few sessions and you feel even the slightest bit of difference in the way you feel about your wife, or your marriage, then have a few more sessions. Things are improving? Keep going to therapy. Things aren't working out after all? Back to Plan A above, end it gently. There is no harm in really trying one last time, and if you try and it doesn't work, then you can (try to) use your shared therapy sessions to end things as well as possible for everyone. And you can do that knowing that you really did try everything.
posted by palomar at 11:54 PM on September 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
You should choose a new therapist, not use either of your individual therapists -- IANAT, and I am not sure if there's a strict ethical boundary that prevents a therapist from seeing a patient both individually and as part of a couple, but it would sure make me uncomfortable to be seeing my partner's therapist for our couples sessions. I'm sure either of your current therapists can recommend someone for you.
I'm not saying that I think you need couples therapy to make you love your wife, or that's going to "cure" you, or whatever. I think you just need to give it a fair shot. If you get in there and you do a few sessions and you feel like it's not helping, then you can bring that up in your sessions. Talk with your wife about your desire to end your marriage, and have your therapist there to help guide the discussion in a way that will cause the least drama and generate the most positive movement, in whatever direction is best for the entire family.
And if you get in there and you have a few sessions and you feel even the slightest bit of difference in the way you feel about your wife, or your marriage, then have a few more sessions. Things are improving? Keep going to therapy. Things aren't working out after all? Back to Plan A above, end it gently. There is no harm in really trying one last time, and if you try and it doesn't work, then you can (try to) use your shared therapy sessions to end things as well as possible for everyone. And you can do that knowing that you really did try everything.
posted by palomar at 11:54 PM on September 29, 2011 [1 favorite]
So basically you need to figure out whether your desire to move on is more important than your children's need for a stable and intact home.
That's a lot of "I" right there. Put your dick on hold, pay your debts, whatever they may lawfully be and gut it the fuck out until the kids are adults
No, a marriage should never be "giving up". Have you given any therapy a try?
I hate when the hivemind gets hivemindy, but I have to chime in with others that you are diminishing what she's brought to the table.
Did I somehow read a question that dropped through from a parallel universe where violence and threats (and attempts of) suicide were being used by one party? You know, spousal abuse? Or are those bits in the question you read and you somehow missed them?
HELLO, DOMESTIC ABUSE! DO LEAVE.
And make damn sure you take the kids. I know people who have left violent partners, the kids have stayed with the violent partner, and the violent partner uses the children, usually the eldest, as the outlet for rage now their partner is out of the picture.
I think you should really heavily consider that a 10-year-old is at serious risk of being emotionally damaged by having their father leave.
More or less emotionally damaged by growing up in a house where the 10 year old's monther throws things at the 10 year old's father when she gets angry, or threatens to commit suicide when someone doesn't do what she wants?
Your kids come first, your wife comes second and you have to be a grown up.
Yes, so get them away from their violent, emotionally abusive mother.
posted by rodgerd at 12:23 AM on September 30, 2011 [5 favorites]
That's a lot of "I" right there. Put your dick on hold, pay your debts, whatever they may lawfully be and gut it the fuck out until the kids are adults
No, a marriage should never be "giving up". Have you given any therapy a try?
I hate when the hivemind gets hivemindy, but I have to chime in with others that you are diminishing what she's brought to the table.
Did I somehow read a question that dropped through from a parallel universe where violence and threats (and attempts of) suicide were being used by one party? You know, spousal abuse? Or are those bits in the question you read and you somehow missed them?
HELLO, DOMESTIC ABUSE! DO LEAVE.
And make damn sure you take the kids. I know people who have left violent partners, the kids have stayed with the violent partner, and the violent partner uses the children, usually the eldest, as the outlet for rage now their partner is out of the picture.
I think you should really heavily consider that a 10-year-old is at serious risk of being emotionally damaged by having their father leave.
More or less emotionally damaged by growing up in a house where the 10 year old's monther throws things at the 10 year old's father when she gets angry, or threatens to commit suicide when someone doesn't do what she wants?
Your kids come first, your wife comes second and you have to be a grown up.
Yes, so get them away from their violent, emotionally abusive mother.
posted by rodgerd at 12:23 AM on September 30, 2011 [5 favorites]
- She has been emotionally abusive to me over the course of our marriage
- She has been physically abusive at times during our marriage, mostly by throwing things at me when she gets angry.
You would never get a thread littered with people telling a women in an abusive marriage to stay with their husband for the sake of the children, and I don't get why it's happening now with a man who is in the same situation. Frankly, it seems pretty reprehensible to me to tell someone who has suffered years of emotional and occasional physical abuse to gut it out or whatever.
OP, you don't love or trust your wife any more. Which possibly isn't surprising if she has been abusive. That's not coming back (nor should it probably), and you're fully entitled to get out of this relationship based on that alone. I do agree you need to stop with the blame game and learn to take responsibility for your part in things, but that's not the same as saying she's entirely blameless and, again, a female victim of abuse wouldn't be getting a lot of the advice along those lines that you are here. The current set up sucks for your kids anyway, don't stick with it out of some misguided notion that two parents living together, no matter how unhappily, is the only good way to bring up children,
posted by shelleycat at 12:24 AM on September 30, 2011 [12 favorites]
- She has been physically abusive at times during our marriage, mostly by throwing things at me when she gets angry.
You would never get a thread littered with people telling a women in an abusive marriage to stay with their husband for the sake of the children, and I don't get why it's happening now with a man who is in the same situation. Frankly, it seems pretty reprehensible to me to tell someone who has suffered years of emotional and occasional physical abuse to gut it out or whatever.
OP, you don't love or trust your wife any more. Which possibly isn't surprising if she has been abusive. That's not coming back (nor should it probably), and you're fully entitled to get out of this relationship based on that alone. I do agree you need to stop with the blame game and learn to take responsibility for your part in things, but that's not the same as saying she's entirely blameless and, again, a female victim of abuse wouldn't be getting a lot of the advice along those lines that you are here. The current set up sucks for your kids anyway, don't stick with it out of some misguided notion that two parents living together, no matter how unhappily, is the only good way to bring up children,
posted by shelleycat at 12:24 AM on September 30, 2011 [12 favorites]
This thread is really getting to me - I have to respectfully disagree with all the people who are telling you that you should always always stay together for the children. Yes, your children need and deserve your love, and attention (and financial support!), but that doesn't require you to live with your wife. If you plan to abandon them so you can live out your single fantasy life and just send checks, then yeah, you're being a selfish prick. But that wasn't the impression I got.
I suspect that my Dad initiated my parents' split, and you know what, I still think he's a mensch.
Earlier I stated that my parents shared custody equally. However, there was one year where we all agreed that it was best for us kids to live exclusively with Mom. I STILL saw Dad almost everyday. He took us out for coffee and ice cream. He went to my orchestra concerts and soccer games. He spent weekends taking me to chess tournaments, and ferrying me to lessons. He made sure we had money to take Mom out for Mother's Day (and sent us to one of the nicest restaurants in town, something we would never have done in the usual course of things). He was the one knocking on my window at 5:30 am to wake me up and take me to before-school swim practice.
(I'm not going to touch your marital issues ... I'm just trying to answer your worry about not knowing how to be a good dad if you and your wife split)
posted by Metasyntactic at 12:28 AM on September 30, 2011 [4 favorites]
I suspect that my Dad initiated my parents' split, and you know what, I still think he's a mensch.
Earlier I stated that my parents shared custody equally. However, there was one year where we all agreed that it was best for us kids to live exclusively with Mom. I STILL saw Dad almost everyday. He took us out for coffee and ice cream. He went to my orchestra concerts and soccer games. He spent weekends taking me to chess tournaments, and ferrying me to lessons. He made sure we had money to take Mom out for Mother's Day (and sent us to one of the nicest restaurants in town, something we would never have done in the usual course of things). He was the one knocking on my window at 5:30 am to wake me up and take me to before-school swim practice.
(I'm not going to touch your marital issues ... I'm just trying to answer your worry about not knowing how to be a good dad if you and your wife split)
posted by Metasyntactic at 12:28 AM on September 30, 2011 [4 favorites]
You should expunge all the fantasy life/dating/secret sexytimes stuff from your mind for now and focus on your relationship and kids. I'm not saying stick it out, but focus and decide what's best without external distractions. If you get divorced, you will be a mess for a while and will wreck any relationship you get into until you have your head together.
One strange thing with this post is that you only have one line saying "the kids are having a hard time". You were ok with her watching your kids and taking care of them after a blackmail and suicide attempt? Were the kids aware of all this? I'm not trying to be judgmental, but this seems to be omitted in your post and seems pretty important, more important than the ordinary desire for new partners and experiences you detail, which are pretty common.
Your post is very contradictory in tone. One line has your wife being emotionally abusive, but you get along pretty well. From your post I don't know if you trust your wife or think she is still a manipulative harpy. Do you believe she is making a good faith effort or do you view all the improvements as more manipulation? Why, after a suicide attempt and sexual abuse revelations, does she think you are going through a midlife crisis when you are pulling away from her?
Would you have been more relieved if your wife had died from the overdose? If the answer is yes, the marriage is over and you should get out for both your sakes. Regardless of what you decide, you should do couples counseling, even if only to get your head straight about why you are leaving the relationship.
posted by benzenedream at 12:55 AM on September 30, 2011 [4 favorites]
One strange thing with this post is that you only have one line saying "the kids are having a hard time". You were ok with her watching your kids and taking care of them after a blackmail and suicide attempt? Were the kids aware of all this? I'm not trying to be judgmental, but this seems to be omitted in your post and seems pretty important, more important than the ordinary desire for new partners and experiences you detail, which are pretty common.
Your post is very contradictory in tone. One line has your wife being emotionally abusive, but you get along pretty well. From your post I don't know if you trust your wife or think she is still a manipulative harpy. Do you believe she is making a good faith effort or do you view all the improvements as more manipulation? Why, after a suicide attempt and sexual abuse revelations, does she think you are going through a midlife crisis when you are pulling away from her?
Would you have been more relieved if your wife had died from the overdose? If the answer is yes, the marriage is over and you should get out for both your sakes. Regardless of what you decide, you should do couples counseling, even if only to get your head straight about why you are leaving the relationship.
posted by benzenedream at 12:55 AM on September 30, 2011 [4 favorites]
If you don't love her anymore, trying to work it out as a romantic relationship is guaranteed to fail.
You might consider trying to stay together as friends living together to raise the family.
However, I can tell you from experience being a kid who lived in a home where the adults were clearly miserable with each other... your children already know something is wrong, it is already affecting them, it will continue to affect them.
Staying for their sake does not save them from anything. They are going to experience emotional upset and stress regardless of whether you stay or go.
The chances of causing psychological or emotional issues are just as high either way you go.
Your children are old enough that you can sit down and talk to them about this, about your decision, and ask what they would rather see you do... They may want you to stay and try to work it out, they may want you to take them with you when you go.
posted by myShanon at 1:16 AM on September 30, 2011
You might consider trying to stay together as friends living together to raise the family.
However, I can tell you from experience being a kid who lived in a home where the adults were clearly miserable with each other... your children already know something is wrong, it is already affecting them, it will continue to affect them.
Staying for their sake does not save them from anything. They are going to experience emotional upset and stress regardless of whether you stay or go.
The chances of causing psychological or emotional issues are just as high either way you go.
Your children are old enough that you can sit down and talk to them about this, about your decision, and ask what they would rather see you do... They may want you to stay and try to work it out, they may want you to take them with you when you go.
posted by myShanon at 1:16 AM on September 30, 2011
From my reading it seems she is recovering from her abusive pattern of behaviour and has been doing so for a year and is making huge changes in her life. I frankly admire her courage. Shes trying to reach out sexually too and being rebuffed. None of this invalidates your feelings if you're not attracted to her anymore.
Does her change make you proud and admiring of her? Could this regard take you together to a couples therapist where you could discuss your needs including interest in different kinds of sex, her sexual abuse history, your loss of attraction, her fear and jealousy, and your longing for other women?
posted by By The Grace of God at 2:35 AM on September 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
Does her change make you proud and admiring of her? Could this regard take you together to a couples therapist where you could discuss your needs including interest in different kinds of sex, her sexual abuse history, your loss of attraction, her fear and jealousy, and your longing for other women?
posted by By The Grace of God at 2:35 AM on September 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
Also. I've been thinking that loving someone is often partly a choice. Other feelings could be obscuring your love. Therapy can map this. If you leave and find you do love her you may be heartbroken yourself.
If shes improved so much I bet she still loves you. Seeing you withdraw is probably her own quiet desperation.
On your death bed what choice do you want to remember?
posted by By The Grace of God at 2:40 AM on September 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
If shes improved so much I bet she still loves you. Seeing you withdraw is probably her own quiet desperation.
On your death bed what choice do you want to remember?
posted by By The Grace of God at 2:40 AM on September 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
Now that I'm not posting from a phone, let me elaborate.
As others have stated, her background with the abuse explains a lot. Also, it's funny how that NOW that she is getting better you want to leave whereas when she was throwing things and being abusive to you you stayed.
Ask yourself why that is.
Yes, you can leave. But because of your own patterns, you have no guarantee whatsoever that the next relationship wouldn't be worse. I watch my own friends get out of what are arguably really bad marriages and then the next marriage they get into? Bingo, WORSE. Some more than once.
Right now you have someone who is actively working on her stuff. Someone who knows all your warts, and whose warts you are all too familiar with. The other ladies are attractive precisely because you don't know what their warts are, and vice versa. Don't let your fantasies about freedom blind you to reality.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:13 AM on September 30, 2011 [7 favorites]
As others have stated, her background with the abuse explains a lot. Also, it's funny how that NOW that she is getting better you want to leave whereas when she was throwing things and being abusive to you you stayed.
Ask yourself why that is.
Yes, you can leave. But because of your own patterns, you have no guarantee whatsoever that the next relationship wouldn't be worse. I watch my own friends get out of what are arguably really bad marriages and then the next marriage they get into? Bingo, WORSE. Some more than once.
Right now you have someone who is actively working on her stuff. Someone who knows all your warts, and whose warts you are all too familiar with. The other ladies are attractive precisely because you don't know what their warts are, and vice versa. Don't let your fantasies about freedom blind you to reality.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 5:13 AM on September 30, 2011 [7 favorites]
The more I think about it, the more I think you need to try giving individual therapy more of a shot, first. I don't doubt that these are real and significant problems in your marriage, and maybe it is over.
You seem disappointed that you've started to get your shit together (exercise, losing weight, career), but you're still not happy. You don't know if you can be happy with her and you don't know if you can be happy in some other situation. I'm not a doctor, but that sounds like it could be depression to me, which is going to color everything blue. If you can't get that under control, you're not going to be happy no matter what. If you can, maybe you can get some hope and rekindle things with your wife. If you can't, well, divorce is still going to be an option in a year or two.
Life is long, and other options should be tried before divorce, which is likely permanent. Happiness does exist, and if you're not even sure of that, exercise and diet and social changes might not be enough to get you there without taking care of your mental well-being. Therapy and antidepressants do work for people, and a trained psychiatrist is in the best position to figure out if there's something else going on with you or if the problem is actually your wife/marriage.
posted by J. Wilson at 6:19 AM on September 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
You seem disappointed that you've started to get your shit together (exercise, losing weight, career), but you're still not happy. You don't know if you can be happy with her and you don't know if you can be happy in some other situation. I'm not a doctor, but that sounds like it could be depression to me, which is going to color everything blue. If you can't get that under control, you're not going to be happy no matter what. If you can, maybe you can get some hope and rekindle things with your wife. If you can't, well, divorce is still going to be an option in a year or two.
Life is long, and other options should be tried before divorce, which is likely permanent. Happiness does exist, and if you're not even sure of that, exercise and diet and social changes might not be enough to get you there without taking care of your mental well-being. Therapy and antidepressants do work for people, and a trained psychiatrist is in the best position to figure out if there's something else going on with you or if the problem is actually your wife/marriage.
posted by J. Wilson at 6:19 AM on September 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
Stable homes are overrated. It's happy homes that matter.
Every child of divorce I know -- every one -- remembers the years their parents stuck together "for the kids" as a miserable, stressful time, and wishes the parents had divorced sooner, because two happy single parents was far better than two perpetually tense and bitter ones, every day and night.
From this anecdata, I conclude that if you think you can "fake it" for a few years and the kids will somehow be better off because of your charade, you're lying to yourself, insulting their intelligence, and probably giving them a less-happy life than you could if you separated now.
posted by rokusan at 6:42 AM on September 30, 2011 [2 favorites]
Every child of divorce I know -- every one -- remembers the years their parents stuck together "for the kids" as a miserable, stressful time, and wishes the parents had divorced sooner, because two happy single parents was far better than two perpetually tense and bitter ones, every day and night.
From this anecdata, I conclude that if you think you can "fake it" for a few years and the kids will somehow be better off because of your charade, you're lying to yourself, insulting their intelligence, and probably giving them a less-happy life than you could if you separated now.
posted by rokusan at 6:42 AM on September 30, 2011 [2 favorites]
>It looks from here like it's worth devoting a ton of time on yourself (and NOT to the derail that is Miss OnethousandMilesAway- she is cocaine to you- just say no.) for six months or a year and see if divorce still seems like the only reasonable option. This probably means therapy or something similar.
>Have you given any therapy a try? You're obviously already gone, emotionally, but before you pull the trigger, try some individual therapy if you haven't. People are harshing on you (sometimes rightfully) for your attitudes - therapy will help you examine them, get more cool with yourself, and move on in the kindest, best way for you, your kids, and your wife.
>Get some therapy and work on your marriage--at least for a couple of years. If you still want to leave when the youngest is in high school that might be all right.
>The more I think about it, the more I think you need to try giving individual therapy more of a shot, first.
I know it was a long question, with many moving parts, but the OP is in therapy, just to set the record straight and inform any comments to come. To wit:
- I have a lot of resentment over the way she has treated me, including the pregnancy and the abuse. I am in therapy for this. She thinks as I work through my issues, my feelings towards her will warm.
Re: the physical and emotional abuse in the marriage, I'd like to respond to this comment:
>Also, it's funny how that NOW that she is getting better you want to leave whereas when she was throwing things and being abusive to you you stayed.
I am not the OP or the OP's wife, and I am in no position to judge the depth of the OP's wife's commitment to making positive changes in her life -- or the depth of the OP's commitment to making positive changes in his life, for that matter.
But I have been a volunteer on a domestic violence hotline, and I think the OP might (subconsciously or not) be worried that his wife eventually will stop making those positive changes and become abusive again. Google "cycle of domestic violence," and when you open the link, look for the words "honeymoon stage," and you'll see what I mean. (One good example is here.)
posted by virago at 6:50 AM on September 30, 2011 [3 favorites]
>Have you given any therapy a try? You're obviously already gone, emotionally, but before you pull the trigger, try some individual therapy if you haven't. People are harshing on you (sometimes rightfully) for your attitudes - therapy will help you examine them, get more cool with yourself, and move on in the kindest, best way for you, your kids, and your wife.
>Get some therapy and work on your marriage--at least for a couple of years. If you still want to leave when the youngest is in high school that might be all right.
>The more I think about it, the more I think you need to try giving individual therapy more of a shot, first.
I know it was a long question, with many moving parts, but the OP is in therapy, just to set the record straight and inform any comments to come. To wit:
- I have a lot of resentment over the way she has treated me, including the pregnancy and the abuse. I am in therapy for this. She thinks as I work through my issues, my feelings towards her will warm.
Re: the physical and emotional abuse in the marriage, I'd like to respond to this comment:
>Also, it's funny how that NOW that she is getting better you want to leave whereas when she was throwing things and being abusive to you you stayed.
I am not the OP or the OP's wife, and I am in no position to judge the depth of the OP's wife's commitment to making positive changes in her life -- or the depth of the OP's commitment to making positive changes in his life, for that matter.
But I have been a volunteer on a domestic violence hotline, and I think the OP might (subconsciously or not) be worried that his wife eventually will stop making those positive changes and become abusive again. Google "cycle of domestic violence," and when you open the link, look for the words "honeymoon stage," and you'll see what I mean. (One good example is here.)
posted by virago at 6:50 AM on September 30, 2011 [3 favorites]
P.S. To those who have opened that link and realized that it's a 7-page PDF, my apologies. The "honeymoon phase" description is on Page 3 of the document, for anyone who is interested.)
posted by virago at 6:54 AM on September 30, 2011
posted by virago at 6:54 AM on September 30, 2011
Mod note: folks - this is not the platform where you work out your own personal issues via the OPs issues. Knock it off with the judgeme answers, knock it off with the smalltext soapboxing. Go to MetaTalk if you just can't answer the question, thanks.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:31 AM on September 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:31 AM on September 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
Better divorced parents who are healthier and happier than parents stuck together in a loveless sham of a tension-filled marriage just because some people think it's the 'right' thing to do.
People often tell themselves that when they want to get a divorce but I don't think it is true.
I was the kid whose parents had the loveless tension filled sham marriage. I would have been a whole hell of a lot happier if they had gotten divorced and found people they wanted to be with, because then they would have been happy and my life wouldn't have been filled with them quietly and not so quietly hating each other.
posted by crankylex at 9:17 AM on September 30, 2011 [3 favorites]
People often tell themselves that when they want to get a divorce but I don't think it is true.
I was the kid whose parents had the loveless tension filled sham marriage. I would have been a whole hell of a lot happier if they had gotten divorced and found people they wanted to be with, because then they would have been happy and my life wouldn't have been filled with them quietly and not so quietly hating each other.
posted by crankylex at 9:17 AM on September 30, 2011 [3 favorites]
Sorry to hear about your situation, it sounds awful for you all.
To answer your question, yes you are being selfish but only insomuch as you - and your wife - absolutely need to put your children first. They love you and look up to you and as someone upthread said, they will model their behaviour on how you both deal with this situation.
Also, for what it's worth, I have male friends who have jumped ship into the arms of another woman only to find out that they too are far from perfect. You need to work on whatever is making you have this 'grass is greener' feeling. If you form a relationship with another woman, and your children become attached to her, and then THAT relationship also breaks down try to imagine the effect it will have on them.
No-one can really tell you what to do, but make sure you are leaving for the right reasons and not for some fantasy life.
posted by veebs at 9:29 AM on September 30, 2011
To answer your question, yes you are being selfish but only insomuch as you - and your wife - absolutely need to put your children first. They love you and look up to you and as someone upthread said, they will model their behaviour on how you both deal with this situation.
Also, for what it's worth, I have male friends who have jumped ship into the arms of another woman only to find out that they too are far from perfect. You need to work on whatever is making you have this 'grass is greener' feeling. If you form a relationship with another woman, and your children become attached to her, and then THAT relationship also breaks down try to imagine the effect it will have on them.
No-one can really tell you what to do, but make sure you are leaving for the right reasons and not for some fantasy life.
posted by veebs at 9:29 AM on September 30, 2011
I feel like some answers are trying to shoehorn this into "OMG double standard" for men vs. women. OP, life is complicated. I think you are totally justified in wanting to leave your wife; she has been abusive. She is also trying to change - only you can decide which of those outweighs the other. Even if you leave her today (which I think would be totally within your rights), you will still be responsible for the welfare of your kids, whether you get full custody of them or ensure that they are safe with her (and I totally agree with others that if YOU leave because she's abusive, it would be reprehensible to leave your kids with her and not look back on her emotional issues).
However, your question is mixed up between "she's abusive and I've had enough" and "here are some things I feel like are my own selfish desires (the sex, other women, etc.). I think this is what is leading people to encourage you to perhaps try to work it out REGARDING your own desires.
In summary: are you justified in leaving her? Totally. But you will still and always have kids to look out for. Don't just stay together "for them", but think carefully about what would be the best way to resolve this and take care of them when you do leave.
posted by nakedmolerats at 10:18 AM on September 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
However, your question is mixed up between "she's abusive and I've had enough" and "here are some things I feel like are my own selfish desires (the sex, other women, etc.). I think this is what is leading people to encourage you to perhaps try to work it out REGARDING your own desires.
In summary: are you justified in leaving her? Totally. But you will still and always have kids to look out for. Don't just stay together "for them", but think carefully about what would be the best way to resolve this and take care of them when you do leave.
posted by nakedmolerats at 10:18 AM on September 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
If you are truly unhappy and your family life is tense, divorce may be a good solution.
But don't do it because you might meet someone else. Sure, you might, or - like so many divorced people - you may be single for the rest of your life. You should hold that as a possibility. (Grandparents divorced, both died single, parents divorced - mom has been single since, dad has had a series of failed relationships).
If you and your wife separate, it should be about your relationship together, not about what ifs.
posted by jb at 11:03 AM on September 30, 2011
But don't do it because you might meet someone else. Sure, you might, or - like so many divorced people - you may be single for the rest of your life. You should hold that as a possibility. (Grandparents divorced, both died single, parents divorced - mom has been single since, dad has had a series of failed relationships).
If you and your wife separate, it should be about your relationship together, not about what ifs.
posted by jb at 11:03 AM on September 30, 2011
You are not being a selfish prick. It sounds like your wife has some serious psychological issues. You should try to get custody of the kids if you can or at least joint custody.
I don't think you should resign yourself to an unhappy marriage and live in quiet desperation for the next 50 years. My advice is to get out now so you don't waste any more of your life in this misery.
I doubt that your feelings for her will return. A good friend of mine once said that once the feeling's gone, it's gone, and this is especially true when it's the result of years of emotional abuse.
Talk to the kids, they may or may not understand, but they are old enough to be capable of understanding. Make it clear to them that the end of your marriage is not their fault and that both you and their mom will love them no matter what. After the divorce, make sure that both you and their mom stay involved in their lives.
Good luck.
posted by raynax at 11:50 AM on September 30, 2011
I don't think you should resign yourself to an unhappy marriage and live in quiet desperation for the next 50 years. My advice is to get out now so you don't waste any more of your life in this misery.
I doubt that your feelings for her will return. A good friend of mine once said that once the feeling's gone, it's gone, and this is especially true when it's the result of years of emotional abuse.
Talk to the kids, they may or may not understand, but they are old enough to be capable of understanding. Make it clear to them that the end of your marriage is not their fault and that both you and their mom will love them no matter what. After the divorce, make sure that both you and their mom stay involved in their lives.
Good luck.
posted by raynax at 11:50 AM on September 30, 2011
It sounds to me like you never really wanted to be with your wife and were just going through the motions playing the "provider" role. I think you should go to couples therapy so you can present the idea that you want to get divorced to her in a controlled environment where if she threatens suicide or gets abusively angry a neutral party can intervene. During the proceedings it would probably be a good idea to have your kids in therapy as well in case there's anything they need to work through from seeing the dysfunctional house they grea up in to dealing with having two separate households now.
I do agree with others though that you need to have a little more agency in the situation. you chose to become a family unit with this woman, you chose (with her) to have her be a stay at home mom (and thus miss out on work experience and schooling, setting her back for years - this is also why alimony is appropriate), and you are now choosing to believe that you have better option in women out there. You need to understand that you are both equally at fault here - she was dishonest about the reliability of her contraception, hid life altering trauma from you for years, and used abuse and suicide to manipulate you. You went along with everything and decieved her into thinking that you were fine with your working arrangement, getting married and now you are consciously shutting her out.
You need to divorce, make the annoucement in the presence of a trained professional, and work with lawyers and therapists to get the optimum outcome for your kids as far as custody and living arangements and support of theri mother for times that they are not with you. Its a tall order.
As a side note - you seem to have neglected teh effect that living a playboy lifestyle would have on your kids. After you get divorced, you may need to take it really really slow with the dating for a while. In fact, i think you should spend some time unattached to any women since a large part of your crisis here is that you convinced yourself that you needed to marry your wife when she got pregnant. You dont sound like you really have a sense of identity without a partner to me.
posted by WeekendJen at 1:01 PM on September 30, 2011 [2 favorites]
I do agree with others though that you need to have a little more agency in the situation. you chose to become a family unit with this woman, you chose (with her) to have her be a stay at home mom (and thus miss out on work experience and schooling, setting her back for years - this is also why alimony is appropriate), and you are now choosing to believe that you have better option in women out there. You need to understand that you are both equally at fault here - she was dishonest about the reliability of her contraception, hid life altering trauma from you for years, and used abuse and suicide to manipulate you. You went along with everything and decieved her into thinking that you were fine with your working arrangement, getting married and now you are consciously shutting her out.
You need to divorce, make the annoucement in the presence of a trained professional, and work with lawyers and therapists to get the optimum outcome for your kids as far as custody and living arangements and support of theri mother for times that they are not with you. Its a tall order.
As a side note - you seem to have neglected teh effect that living a playboy lifestyle would have on your kids. After you get divorced, you may need to take it really really slow with the dating for a while. In fact, i think you should spend some time unattached to any women since a large part of your crisis here is that you convinced yourself that you needed to marry your wife when she got pregnant. You dont sound like you really have a sense of identity without a partner to me.
posted by WeekendJen at 1:01 PM on September 30, 2011 [2 favorites]
Speaking up as another child of divorced parents (I was 7 when they split up) — getting divorced was one of the best decisions my parents ever made. I think it's better to separate/divorce, with both of you working to be as upright and fair and ethical throughout the process as you possibly can, than to try to stay together when things are bad and you're miserable and your children can tell.
They can. Really. My parents never got loud and I don't remember them ever fighting in front of me, but by age 5 I was having nightmares in which I was in the driver's seat of my father's truck as it went speeding down a major local expressway, but no matter how I turned the steering wheel or pressed the pedals, nothing I did would make it change direction or slow down. Symbolic much? At least once they told me they were separating there was something actual that I could deal with, instead of the terrifying feeling of I know there's something wrong but I don't know what and when I ask Mom and Dad they tell me everything's fine... but I KNOW IT'S NOT.
posted by Lexica at 1:06 PM on September 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
They can. Really. My parents never got loud and I don't remember them ever fighting in front of me, but by age 5 I was having nightmares in which I was in the driver's seat of my father's truck as it went speeding down a major local expressway, but no matter how I turned the steering wheel or pressed the pedals, nothing I did would make it change direction or slow down. Symbolic much? At least once they told me they were separating there was something actual that I could deal with, instead of the terrifying feeling of I know there's something wrong but I don't know what and when I ask Mom and Dad they tell me everything's fine... but I KNOW IT'S NOT.
posted by Lexica at 1:06 PM on September 30, 2011 [1 favorite]
By The Grace Of God wrote:
"From my reading it seems she is recovering from her abusive pattern of behaviour and has been doing so for a year and is making huge changes in her life. I frankly admire her courage. Shes trying to reach out sexually too and being rebuffed. None of this invalidates your feelings if you're not attracted to her anymore."
So true!! As other commenters with direct experience have pointed out, your wife has had HUGE obstacles to over-come thanks to sexual abuse. Breaking the cycle of abuse is not easy. I'm glad she's making changes. It's not too late for her to heal and get her behavior under control.
It sounds like she acted out against you quite a bit during your marriage, I'm sorry for that. I'm kinda wondering where your compassion is, though? You should get your therapist to explain the long-term effects of sexual abuse to you. Perhaps that will put your wife's outbursts and emotional abuse into perspective for you.
I don't think your marriage is fixable, but your attitude towards your ex-wife needs to develop into something more charitable than it is now.
OP, if you think about it, you have not been a "safe" person for your wife to have been living with all of these years, because deep down, you've held the view that she manipulated you into marriage. You hold deep deep resentments towards her which were likely apparent in your gestures and tone of voice on a daily basis. You were not hiding your resentment as well as you might of thought.
If you think your hidden feelings weren't effecting her all these years - wow. Of course your secrets effected her! Just like her secrets (hidden sexual abuse at the hands of stepfather) effected you. Of course.
I think you leaving her will be great for her. You've both been sleeping under the same roof with an enemy (each other) and that must stop for everyone's well being.
You should (and by law probably will) pay her alimony. I suggest you re-frame all of your resentment and bitterness into appreciation and understanding towards your ex-wife. Your position towards her is not at all adult, instead, it is petty and childish. Immature.
If you continue to hold this position towards your wife, you will forever wound your children. You will create emotional problems in them that will mar their lives well into adulthood. It's really that simple.
Again. Discuss this intensely selfish martyrdom/victim thing you are holding onto with your therapist. It's holding you back as a human being. I bet it's effecting other areas of your life, too. It's worth growing up and changing this in yourself. You'll feel much much better if you undertake this very important self-work. The by-product will be improved relationships with your children and ex-wife for the rest of your lives.
posted by jbenben at 2:24 PM on September 30, 2011 [9 favorites]
"From my reading it seems she is recovering from her abusive pattern of behaviour and has been doing so for a year and is making huge changes in her life. I frankly admire her courage. Shes trying to reach out sexually too and being rebuffed. None of this invalidates your feelings if you're not attracted to her anymore."
So true!! As other commenters with direct experience have pointed out, your wife has had HUGE obstacles to over-come thanks to sexual abuse. Breaking the cycle of abuse is not easy. I'm glad she's making changes. It's not too late for her to heal and get her behavior under control.
It sounds like she acted out against you quite a bit during your marriage, I'm sorry for that. I'm kinda wondering where your compassion is, though? You should get your therapist to explain the long-term effects of sexual abuse to you. Perhaps that will put your wife's outbursts and emotional abuse into perspective for you.
I don't think your marriage is fixable, but your attitude towards your ex-wife needs to develop into something more charitable than it is now.
OP, if you think about it, you have not been a "safe" person for your wife to have been living with all of these years, because deep down, you've held the view that she manipulated you into marriage. You hold deep deep resentments towards her which were likely apparent in your gestures and tone of voice on a daily basis. You were not hiding your resentment as well as you might of thought.
If you think your hidden feelings weren't effecting her all these years - wow. Of course your secrets effected her! Just like her secrets (hidden sexual abuse at the hands of stepfather) effected you. Of course.
I think you leaving her will be great for her. You've both been sleeping under the same roof with an enemy (each other) and that must stop for everyone's well being.
You should (and by law probably will) pay her alimony. I suggest you re-frame all of your resentment and bitterness into appreciation and understanding towards your ex-wife. Your position towards her is not at all adult, instead, it is petty and childish. Immature.
If you continue to hold this position towards your wife, you will forever wound your children. You will create emotional problems in them that will mar their lives well into adulthood. It's really that simple.
Again. Discuss this intensely selfish martyrdom/victim thing you are holding onto with your therapist. It's holding you back as a human being. I bet it's effecting other areas of your life, too. It's worth growing up and changing this in yourself. You'll feel much much better if you undertake this very important self-work. The by-product will be improved relationships with your children and ex-wife for the rest of your lives.
posted by jbenben at 2:24 PM on September 30, 2011 [9 favorites]
Mod note: From the OP:
I wanted to clear a few things up, and close the loop on this thread.posted by jessamyn (staff) at 8:05 PM on September 30, 2011 [3 favorites]
First, I'm sorry I kicked the hornet's nest with this question. Thursday is my normal therapy day, but my counselor was unavailable so we didn't have an appointment yesterday, and won't meet again until next week. I had gotten into a fight with the wife and I needed to vent. I was trying to think through some problems. I'm a technical guy, an engineer, and my therapist says I'm all logic and I don't handle emotions well. I hate it when I break down and cry in front of her, she has used that against me so many times. She argues with me until I break down. But I managed last night, to last through the fight. But I needed to work through some things, and I don't have anyone I can really dump all this on, so I turned to Metafilter. That was my mistake, I now realize that AskMe is not my therapy or my outlet. This whole situation just hurts so.fucking.bad. and I don't know how to handle it. Which was why I asked if I should just stay with her, turn off the emotions, and save everyone the pain. Happiness has been elusive, and if it doesn't really exist, then maybe that would be the best option.
On custody, I will get joint custody. She has never been abusive to the children. She came from an abusive home, and has always made it a point to break that cycle with our kids. She admits, though, that she never made an effort to be a good spouse. It never crossed her mind. But I acknowledge that she works hard to be an excellent parent, and is a better parent than I am, and I try very hard to be a good father. But the kids love her more, I can't take them away.
On the pregnancy, I acknowledge my part in the act. But I thought she was on birth control. It has left some lingering trust issues. I'm working on it in therapy.
On owning my choices, including marrying her, and the victim/martyr mentality that many here point out, I agree it is an issue. As a matter of fact, my counselor pointed it out in my therapy just last week. I'm going to be working on it.
To the people who said raising a child is a full time job, I get that. But I was working full time, and going to school full time. And when I got home at night, to a filthy house, I was handed a screaming kid and told "Take her, I can't stand this anymore". Then I was in charge the rest of the night, for dinner, for watching the kid, for everything. I realize now that she was depressed and traumatized from the abuse. But I didn't know it then. And that didn't make it any easier for a 19 year old boy to handle. Yes I am still bitter. Yes I am working on it.
On the contradictory tone of the post, I was very emotional. But it is true, we get along very well most of the time. Just not when I do something to upset her. But the abuse has stopped. The last time was about 6 months ago, when I made a smart-assed comment, she punched me, but instantly realized what she did and apologized profusely. The emotional stuff has been better too, she hasn't threatened suicide (last Sept was not the first time) or attacked my sexual shortcomings or other things that have been issues in the past. I credit her therapy and her hard work for this.
On the alimony, that was fallout from the fight. I'm not trying to screw her over in this. I already told her I would keep her on my insurance as long as she needed, I'll be generous with child support, she can have all the equity in the marriage, and I'll take all the debt. But during the fight yesterday she said she would do that and take a large portion of my pay also. She said her lawyer (I didn't know she had one) advised her not to get a job because she would get more support without one. The idea of paying her when I'm 80 is unsettling, but that's where I am.
On the kinky sex, and the other women, I shouldn't have included that. I was trying to clear my head and work through my feelings. During our fight, she asked what I wanted to achieve by separating. I said I wanted to be away from her, but she said that since we have kids that she will always be in my life. I said I wanted some financial independence, but she said that I would have less money separately than I do together. I said I wanted freedom, and she said I would always have responsibility to my family and she pointed that I've already got freedom because I go to grad school one weeknight, plus I have a sports league another weeknight and one weekend morning. So I was working through my last items, the ones I can't tell her because it would hurt her and she would get angry.
On my female friend, she really is just a friend. There has never been anything flirty between us. But I think she is the type I would like to find, someone who is supportive and kind to me.
I don't have aspirations of dating her. I really don't have hope of dating much at all. I have a lot of guilt. I have a lot of self-esteem issues. I'm don't believe women would want to be with me, and even if they did I don't know how to handle that. I'm hoping to work on this in therapy in the future, but I'm not there yet.
I take responsibility for a lot of the problems in the marriage also. I get that. I don't blame her solely. I've carried a lot of anger and bitterness that she had to sense. I could have been a better husband. I was working so hard to try and get us to a better place, that I wasn't there for her like she needed. I didn't help her with her emotional baggage. I didn't know how. I could have been more understanding to her issues. I wish I could be more understanding now. But I still don't know how. That was when I knew I wanted out, when I lost my compassion. When she threatened suicide, and I didn't stop her. I feel like such a horrible person for that.
Again, I'm sorry for the giant mess of a thread. I came looking for a warm hug, but got a cold slap in the face. Maybe that's what I needed.
If she wasn't actively doing the work, I would have come down super hard on the other side of this, FWIW.
There's your *hug*
You were a victim, too. But not exactly in the way you were thinking. And thank god you are an adult who has agency. You're so lucky to have this opportunity! You can change something that has been passed down through generations before your children. Embrace this positive opportunity!
*HUG*
posted by jbenben at 9:22 PM on September 30, 2011
There's your *hug*
You were a victim, too. But not exactly in the way you were thinking. And thank god you are an adult who has agency. You're so lucky to have this opportunity! You can change something that has been passed down through generations before your children. Embrace this positive opportunity!
*HUG*
posted by jbenben at 9:22 PM on September 30, 2011
FWIW you don't have to apologize for anything IMO. You are allowed to be human -- your frank honesty took real courage that's hard for many people to understand/empathize with. You're not obligated to own/caretake how uncomfortable that makes other people feel/react. You're 100% allowed to have all of the feelings you've expressed and NOT be condemned for it. Don't feel obligated to own other people's shit. You are actually doing tremendously well because at least you CAN be honest with yourself.
Other people have covered the cold slaps in spades. I second jbenben's *HUG*
posted by human ecologist at 10:27 PM on September 30, 2011 [2 favorites]
Other people have covered the cold slaps in spades. I second jbenben's *HUG*
posted by human ecologist at 10:27 PM on September 30, 2011 [2 favorites]
My condolances. It sounds like you have been through the fucking wringer with this marriage. I would not have lasted two months in your shoes.
But it is true, we get along very well most of the time. Just not when I do something to upset her. ... I credit her therapy and her hard work for this.
...
But during the fight yesterday she said she would do that and take a large portion of my pay also. She said her lawyer (I didn't know she had one) advised her not to get a job because she would get more support without one.
More blackmail. If this was me, and I did not have compelling external evidence for the sexual abuse, and possibly the therapy, I would be wondering how deep the manipulation is actually running here. Is your wife a casual liar who remakes reality to suit her emotional needs of the moment?
I have a lot of guilt. I have a lot of self-esteem issue
If your wife is an abusive predator, this is exactly why she chose you.
Also, it may be blindingly obvious by this point, but don't have unprotected sex with her at this point unless you want a third kid.
posted by benzenedream at 1:02 AM on October 1, 2011
But it is true, we get along very well most of the time. Just not when I do something to upset her. ... I credit her therapy and her hard work for this.
...
But during the fight yesterday she said she would do that and take a large portion of my pay also. She said her lawyer (I didn't know she had one) advised her not to get a job because she would get more support without one.
More blackmail. If this was me, and I did not have compelling external evidence for the sexual abuse, and possibly the therapy, I would be wondering how deep the manipulation is actually running here. Is your wife a casual liar who remakes reality to suit her emotional needs of the moment?
I have a lot of guilt. I have a lot of self-esteem issue
If your wife is an abusive predator, this is exactly why she chose you.
Also, it may be blindingly obvious by this point, but don't have unprotected sex with her at this point unless you want a third kid.
posted by benzenedream at 1:02 AM on October 1, 2011
All of this stuff about staying married 50 years, alimony til you're eighty...
Thinking that kind of long term in anything but the very abstract is going to make you miserable, no matter what the scenario. (And I do it for a living!) If you're like me, you'll will make yourself feel completely powerless that you'll do any old extreme thing to avoid it.
I think 5 years is as much as you can reasonably aim for.
Were you to get divorced, alimony til you're 80 seems unlikely- she'll get remarried, or the judge will decide she's had enough chances, etc etc. (If you divorce, the first financial arrangement that you and the courts come up with won't be the last one.) Leaving now or living 50 years of quiet desperation aren't your only options either. There's a lot of middle ground.
tl;dr: Dial back on the future tripping.
I wish I could give you a hug, OP. This is a hard and painful situation.
posted by small_ruminant at 9:11 AM on October 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
Thinking that kind of long term in anything but the very abstract is going to make you miserable, no matter what the scenario. (And I do it for a living!) If you're like me, you'll will make yourself feel completely powerless that you'll do any old extreme thing to avoid it.
I think 5 years is as much as you can reasonably aim for.
Were you to get divorced, alimony til you're 80 seems unlikely- she'll get remarried, or the judge will decide she's had enough chances, etc etc. (If you divorce, the first financial arrangement that you and the courts come up with won't be the last one.) Leaving now or living 50 years of quiet desperation aren't your only options either. There's a lot of middle ground.
tl;dr: Dial back on the future tripping.
I wish I could give you a hug, OP. This is a hard and painful situation.
posted by small_ruminant at 9:11 AM on October 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
You were both so young; you still are. You can have a much better life and I hope you do--both of you. You can be apart and learn to respect yourselves and each other and that is what you should aim for, I think. At nineteen, you weren't ready for all that and neither was she.
Be kind to both of you now and both of you do the work to get to the next level of self awareness and maturity so you can forgive each other and go in peace to the second chapter that you both deserve. It's alright not to be together. That doesn't matter as much as learning to understand and forgive and respect each other. Do the work and one day you can be happy for yourselves and for one another and your children will be better off for your having done this.
You sound like a good guy and you'd get a hug from me. And I'd still tell you she went into this with more disadvantages than you, she was damaged emotionally and needed something she couldn't name and you couldn't supply and neither of you were ready to be a grown up. If your performance seems better than hers, you might remember she was carrying wounds and burdens that skewed her responses to you and to life. Compassion.
Someone said once in a talk, "We are born into a broken world, bearing the scars of our parents' wounds." It helps me remember to be a little bit kinder. Being kind is sometimes hardest to remember with those who matter the most.
One day I hope each one of you meets someone who is right for the persons you will have become. And that you have love and fun and great sex for a long time to come. Don't rush it now; i think if you do this right, you will find the great future you want and deserve.
posted by Anitanola at 4:10 PM on October 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
Be kind to both of you now and both of you do the work to get to the next level of self awareness and maturity so you can forgive each other and go in peace to the second chapter that you both deserve. It's alright not to be together. That doesn't matter as much as learning to understand and forgive and respect each other. Do the work and one day you can be happy for yourselves and for one another and your children will be better off for your having done this.
You sound like a good guy and you'd get a hug from me. And I'd still tell you she went into this with more disadvantages than you, she was damaged emotionally and needed something she couldn't name and you couldn't supply and neither of you were ready to be a grown up. If your performance seems better than hers, you might remember she was carrying wounds and burdens that skewed her responses to you and to life. Compassion.
Someone said once in a talk, "We are born into a broken world, bearing the scars of our parents' wounds." It helps me remember to be a little bit kinder. Being kind is sometimes hardest to remember with those who matter the most.
One day I hope each one of you meets someone who is right for the persons you will have become. And that you have love and fun and great sex for a long time to come. Don't rush it now; i think if you do this right, you will find the great future you want and deserve.
posted by Anitanola at 4:10 PM on October 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
In addition to continuing with your therapist, please get a lawyer of your own now! You REALLY need someone to advocate for YOUR rights: you want to be fair of course, and you're willing to be generous, but you are NOT responsible for her for the rest of your life --- I'd be surprised if you had to pay alimony more than five years or so, max. (IANAL!)
She may be cutting back on the physical abuse, but the threats and emotional blackmail are themselves abuse, and it sounds likes she's really wearing you down. Please accept internet hugs from me, too, and many good wishes for the future.
posted by easily confused at 3:07 AM on October 9, 2011
She may be cutting back on the physical abuse, but the threats and emotional blackmail are themselves abuse, and it sounds likes she's really wearing you down. Please accept internet hugs from me, too, and many good wishes for the future.
posted by easily confused at 3:07 AM on October 9, 2011
This thread is closed to new comments.
- She has been physically abusive at times during our marriage, mostly by throwing things at me when she gets angry.
That settles it. You're not being selfish for wanting to extricate yourself -- and your children -- from a violent or potentially violent situation.
posted by John Cohen at 3:31 PM on September 29, 2011 [7 favorites]