What's appropriate in the world of online dating?
August 14, 2010 6:36 AM Subscribe
OnlineDatingEtiquetteFilter: I'm somewhat new to the online dating scene, opting for free sites such as OKCupid. As a guy interested in women, there's a few points of etiquette that I'm just not exactly sure how to handle. A series of questions after the cut.
Just turned 30, living in the Boston area. Usually meeting up with 25-32 year old women. I see these first meetups to be mostly just getting together (e.g., coffee, a drink, etc.) in a no pressure situation, not exactly very official date-like.
Situation 1: Date was OK, but no chemistry. End of date left things open for getting together again. What's appropriate?
Grabbed dinner at a local cafe, took a walk afterwards. No real chemistry there. Gave her a hug goodbye. Seemed to be mutual, but its hard to tell, she might have just been nervous. When we left, we went through the motions of "this was fun, perhaps we should do it again sometime," but both of us made some excuses about when we were available. Ended up being "well, I guess we'll figure it out". What's the appropriate response here? Is it okay to just not follow-up with a message? Is that rude? If I should write a message, how should I craft it so its not like I'm preemptively rejecting her? Women, if this was you, how'd you like to be told?
Situation 2: An affectionate first date, followed by a cooled-down second date, and now mixed signals. Help me decipher them?
First date of drinks turned into many drinks (she swore she could drink me under the table) and an invitation back to my place for even more. At my place, things got a little affectionate, some kissing and caressing. Invitation to stay the night was declined. Second date a week later she had cooled off a bit, didn't seem to return flirtation. Putting the ball in her court, I said I'd be at a local coffeehouse at a specific time that weekend and she was welcome to join me if she'd like. While I was there, she IMed me and asked if I was working or just relaxing there, I said a little of both, but she was welcome to join me. She never did. Not sure what was up, I left it to her to contact me again. Later that week, she texts me for a recommendation for her friends and later that night texts me about what I'm up to. I was busy at the time, but said I'd be out soon if she wanted to get together. She was meeting up with a friend for a going away party. I offered to join her, but never got a response. The following night, I see she looked at my profile again. Help me decipher these signals?
Situation 3: I'm financially secure enough to pay, but I'd prefer to split the bill on these first dates. Is there a subtle hint or signal I can give when paying to allow my date to offer to pay/split/get the next round?
Often times, I make more money than the women I'm going out with, and sometimes they're in pretty crappy financial situations (e.g., unemployed, grad student). I can certainly afford to pay for the whole date, but if I keep doing that it can get expensive quickly. It feels rude and pushy to say "Wanna get the next round?" or "Did you want to split the check?" Am I just crazy and this is perfectly acceptable or in 2010 am I, as the guy, still expected to pay for everything?
throwaway email: whatisokcupid@gmail.com
Just turned 30, living in the Boston area. Usually meeting up with 25-32 year old women. I see these first meetups to be mostly just getting together (e.g., coffee, a drink, etc.) in a no pressure situation, not exactly very official date-like.
Situation 1: Date was OK, but no chemistry. End of date left things open for getting together again. What's appropriate?
Grabbed dinner at a local cafe, took a walk afterwards. No real chemistry there. Gave her a hug goodbye. Seemed to be mutual, but its hard to tell, she might have just been nervous. When we left, we went through the motions of "this was fun, perhaps we should do it again sometime," but both of us made some excuses about when we were available. Ended up being "well, I guess we'll figure it out". What's the appropriate response here? Is it okay to just not follow-up with a message? Is that rude? If I should write a message, how should I craft it so its not like I'm preemptively rejecting her? Women, if this was you, how'd you like to be told?
Situation 2: An affectionate first date, followed by a cooled-down second date, and now mixed signals. Help me decipher them?
First date of drinks turned into many drinks (she swore she could drink me under the table) and an invitation back to my place for even more. At my place, things got a little affectionate, some kissing and caressing. Invitation to stay the night was declined. Second date a week later she had cooled off a bit, didn't seem to return flirtation. Putting the ball in her court, I said I'd be at a local coffeehouse at a specific time that weekend and she was welcome to join me if she'd like. While I was there, she IMed me and asked if I was working or just relaxing there, I said a little of both, but she was welcome to join me. She never did. Not sure what was up, I left it to her to contact me again. Later that week, she texts me for a recommendation for her friends and later that night texts me about what I'm up to. I was busy at the time, but said I'd be out soon if she wanted to get together. She was meeting up with a friend for a going away party. I offered to join her, but never got a response. The following night, I see she looked at my profile again. Help me decipher these signals?
Situation 3: I'm financially secure enough to pay, but I'd prefer to split the bill on these first dates. Is there a subtle hint or signal I can give when paying to allow my date to offer to pay/split/get the next round?
Often times, I make more money than the women I'm going out with, and sometimes they're in pretty crappy financial situations (e.g., unemployed, grad student). I can certainly afford to pay for the whole date, but if I keep doing that it can get expensive quickly. It feels rude and pushy to say "Wanna get the next round?" or "Did you want to split the check?" Am I just crazy and this is perfectly acceptable or in 2010 am I, as the guy, still expected to pay for everything?
throwaway email: whatisokcupid@gmail.com
1) I think if there's no chemistry, there's no obligation to contact the person again. Online dating for most people is like trying on clothes -- everyone knows you're not the only shirt they're trying on.. to extend the metaphor, when you try a shirt on and you realise it doesn't fit, you don't have to spend lots of time explaining to the salesperson why you don't like it.
2) It's not worth putting in a lot of effort to see someone if it's not coming back the other way. You've laid it out that you want to see her again -- it's up to her to take you up on that. There can be many reasons why people cool off or send apparently mixed signals, but in the online dating world it's usually b/c they're juggling several dates and have decided to concentrate on one person for awhile if it looks like it has potential. Don't spend time trying to decipher this stuff.
3) If you realise you don't want to see the person again, I think it's perfectly reasonable to say
"alright, looks like $40 each" -- who cares what they think, since you've already decided not to see them again. If it's someone you do want to see again, then you can just hope they offer to pay for their share, and if they don't, well, that's an insight into some aspect of their character.
posted by modernnomad at 6:55 AM on August 14, 2010
2) It's not worth putting in a lot of effort to see someone if it's not coming back the other way. You've laid it out that you want to see her again -- it's up to her to take you up on that. There can be many reasons why people cool off or send apparently mixed signals, but in the online dating world it's usually b/c they're juggling several dates and have decided to concentrate on one person for awhile if it looks like it has potential. Don't spend time trying to decipher this stuff.
3) If you realise you don't want to see the person again, I think it's perfectly reasonable to say
"alright, looks like $40 each" -- who cares what they think, since you've already decided not to see them again. If it's someone you do want to see again, then you can just hope they offer to pay for their share, and if they don't, well, that's an insight into some aspect of their character.
posted by modernnomad at 6:55 AM on August 14, 2010
Well, in Situation One, if you made any further contact I would most likely (barring special circumstances, like you promised to send me a link to a website or something) assume you wanted to see me again. If you didn't want to see me again, I would prefer you didn't get back in touch at all, because that might be confusing. Even if I quite liked you, I wouldn't be overly hurt if you disappeared, because it was just one date. I think you need a couple or three dates before you are required to do the, "It's not going to work" thing. However, if it was a nice date I might go ahead and try for another one to see if chemistry develops, and at least you might have another pleasant evening.
Am I just crazy and this is perfectly acceptable or in 2010 am I, as the guy, still expected to pay for everything?
As a woman dating men, every (I mean every) payment situation I've been in has been like this:
Waitress: Separate or together?
Guy: (Quickly) Oh, together.
Me: I can get mine.
Guy: Oh, no, that's fine.
Me: Thank you.
or:
(Check arrives)
Guy: (Grabs check)
Me: Oh, I can get mine.
Guy: Oh, no, it's OK.
Me: Thank you.
Even in situations where I didn't mind paying at all, I personally wouldn't keep pressing to pay because I'd be afraid of making him feel awkward. So probably the women you're dating have been in many situations very like the ones I've been in, and even if they wouldn't mind paying, they don't want to make you feel awkward. The times I pay are the times when I've specifically said, "I'm going to take you out on a date."
posted by frobozz at 6:59 AM on August 14, 2010 [3 favorites]
Am I just crazy and this is perfectly acceptable or in 2010 am I, as the guy, still expected to pay for everything?
As a woman dating men, every (I mean every) payment situation I've been in has been like this:
Waitress: Separate or together?
Guy: (Quickly) Oh, together.
Me: I can get mine.
Guy: Oh, no, that's fine.
Me: Thank you.
or:
(Check arrives)
Guy: (Grabs check)
Me: Oh, I can get mine.
Guy: Oh, no, it's OK.
Me: Thank you.
Even in situations where I didn't mind paying at all, I personally wouldn't keep pressing to pay because I'd be afraid of making him feel awkward. So probably the women you're dating have been in many situations very like the ones I've been in, and even if they wouldn't mind paying, they don't want to make you feel awkward. The times I pay are the times when I've specifically said, "I'm going to take you out on a date."
posted by frobozz at 6:59 AM on August 14, 2010 [3 favorites]
*I meant, every situation where I didn't make it clear that I was taking him out rather than vice versa.
posted by frobozz at 7:01 AM on August 14, 2010
posted by frobozz at 7:01 AM on August 14, 2010
For situation 1: One time I went on a date with a guy I met on OK Cupid. We had a good time, but neither of us was really interested in the other romantically upon meeting. A few days after our date, he sent me a nice email saying he enjoyed meeting me, had a great time hanging out, didn't feel a romantic spark, but would love to hang out again as friends. He then followed up by inviting me to a couple of things over the next few months. Scheduling issues resulted in me actually never seeing him again, and the potential friendship didn't materialize, BUT I've always remembered how he handled that as exceptionally mature and classy. Of course, I'd only recommend going that route if you do, in fact, want to be her friend!
I agree with others on situations 2 & 3.
posted by hansbrough at 7:06 AM on August 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
I agree with others on situations 2 & 3.
posted by hansbrough at 7:06 AM on August 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
Situation 1: This is just me as a female, former online dater, but if you're not feeling it, I think it's perfectly acceptable to just let communication taper off without any explanation after one date. She'll get the message and it's a lot less awkward than having to explain to a relative stranger that you're just not that into them. The exception to this would be if you were previously having a lot of online contact prior to meeting, but I'm also of the opinion that you probably shouldn't have been doing that in the first place. Not every woman will feel this way, but I've found it generally results in less awkwardness and hurt feelings.
Situation 2: Don't overthink things. It's easy to do and hardly ever worth it. Just ask her out again, and don't be coy about it. If she says yes, great. If she declines (or more likely, demures), then move along. Unless there's some very strong indication that she wants to see you again, but is unavoidably busy, it's not really worth it to keep hanging around for the occasional attention. Should she change her mind, she can always ask you out, but in the meantime, there are other fish in the sea.
Situation 3: This is a tricky and sensitive subject that will depend very strongly on your personal values, what region you live in, what kind of woman you are looking for, and how much awkwardness you're willing to endure. The question of who pays can be difficult to answer for the most hardened feminist, so don't expect to find some magical subtle hint you can drop.
Because of societal norms, even in 2010, many women are accustomed to and even expect a man paying the bill, and some may write you off as pushy, cheap, or even disinterested for asking to split the check. Other women, and I include myself in this, see a man paying as a potentially thorny issue, fraught with a lot of sexual politics, and approach it gingerly. Sometimes I would take the initiative and split the check, but more frequently, I would end up alternating. If he paid for the first date, I would pay for the second.
Asking outright is, of course, the most direct approach, but it will put her in the awkward position of having to say yes out of politeness, so I would recommend trying to leave the ball in her court by simply pausing a bit before reaching for your wallet. Don't make a big, obvious thing out of it, just give her the opportunity to offer.
posted by Diagonalize at 7:24 AM on August 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
Situation 2: Don't overthink things. It's easy to do and hardly ever worth it. Just ask her out again, and don't be coy about it. If she says yes, great. If she declines (or more likely, demures), then move along. Unless there's some very strong indication that she wants to see you again, but is unavoidably busy, it's not really worth it to keep hanging around for the occasional attention. Should she change her mind, she can always ask you out, but in the meantime, there are other fish in the sea.
Situation 3: This is a tricky and sensitive subject that will depend very strongly on your personal values, what region you live in, what kind of woman you are looking for, and how much awkwardness you're willing to endure. The question of who pays can be difficult to answer for the most hardened feminist, so don't expect to find some magical subtle hint you can drop.
Because of societal norms, even in 2010, many women are accustomed to and even expect a man paying the bill, and some may write you off as pushy, cheap, or even disinterested for asking to split the check. Other women, and I include myself in this, see a man paying as a potentially thorny issue, fraught with a lot of sexual politics, and approach it gingerly. Sometimes I would take the initiative and split the check, but more frequently, I would end up alternating. If he paid for the first date, I would pay for the second.
Asking outright is, of course, the most direct approach, but it will put her in the awkward position of having to say yes out of politeness, so I would recommend trying to leave the ball in her court by simply pausing a bit before reaching for your wallet. Don't make a big, obvious thing out of it, just give her the opportunity to offer.
posted by Diagonalize at 7:24 AM on August 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
What frobozz said about paying. I've only had one guy ever just remain completely silent when the check came, which infuriated me. I was always prepared to split the check, but I certainly wasn't prepared to pay for the whole thing. I don't think any other guy ever took me up on my offer. My now-husband and I had probably been dating for three months or so before he'd let me pay. But I would have if he'd let me. TL;DR: she should offer to split after you pay for the first date. If she doesn't, and you really like her otherwise, I'd go with modernnomad's suggestion of "alright, looks like it's $40 each." If you like going to nice restaurants, but don't want to pay all the time, don't date unemployed grad students. A lot of women have financial standards for the men they'll date, I don't see why you shouldn't too.
Situation 1: If she contacts you again, just say you had a good time with her, but you're interested in someone else. (Whether that's true or not.) Don't mention the lack of chemistry.
Situation 2: She doesn't seem to know what she wants. If she doesn't figure it out soon, move on.
posted by desjardins at 7:27 AM on August 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
Situation 1: If she contacts you again, just say you had a good time with her, but you're interested in someone else. (Whether that's true or not.) Don't mention the lack of chemistry.
Situation 2: She doesn't seem to know what she wants. If she doesn't figure it out soon, move on.
posted by desjardins at 7:27 AM on August 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
I've only had one guy ever just remain completely silent when the check came, which infuriated me.
This wasn't clear: what I meant was that the check came, and he let it sit there on the table without looking at it or saying anything at all to me. After a few awkward minutes, I grabbed my wallet and paid the bill. He didn't even leave a tip! Plus, his profession makes two to three times what mine does. I never spoke to him again.
posted by desjardins at 7:32 AM on August 14, 2010
This wasn't clear: what I meant was that the check came, and he let it sit there on the table without looking at it or saying anything at all to me. After a few awkward minutes, I grabbed my wallet and paid the bill. He didn't even leave a tip! Plus, his profession makes two to three times what mine does. I never spoke to him again.
posted by desjardins at 7:32 AM on August 14, 2010
1: If it's a first date and you're not really into the person and they don't seem into you, it's okay (and common) to leave it at that. No need to prolong the awkwardness.
2: I don't know. I agree with modernnomad that the other person should make an effort, but whenever I'm on the receiving end of "well I'll be here and you can join me if you want" or "maybe we should meet up later," I tend not to go even if I genuinely want to hang out with them. The first sounds like "eh I don't really care if you show up or not" and the second sounds like "I might be busy so don't bet on things working out." You don't want to spend a lot of time on her if she's not going to return interest, but if you half-ass it like that she's going to think you're not showing interest either. If you want to get this situation back on track for one last try, tell her something like "I'd like to get together, but I'll let you set a date/time/place." If she doesn't pick up the ball, move on.
3. Asker pays, at least on the first date. Splitting the bill usually signals that you're not into the person. That said, if the askee doesn't offer to treat or at least pay their portion by the second date, it's not a good sign. If you'd like to keep first dates inexpensive, don't involve drinks because those add up fast.
posted by Metroid Baby at 7:32 AM on August 14, 2010
2: I don't know. I agree with modernnomad that the other person should make an effort, but whenever I'm on the receiving end of "well I'll be here and you can join me if you want" or "maybe we should meet up later," I tend not to go even if I genuinely want to hang out with them. The first sounds like "eh I don't really care if you show up or not" and the second sounds like "I might be busy so don't bet on things working out." You don't want to spend a lot of time on her if she's not going to return interest, but if you half-ass it like that she's going to think you're not showing interest either. If you want to get this situation back on track for one last try, tell her something like "I'd like to get together, but I'll let you set a date/time/place." If she doesn't pick up the ball, move on.
3. Asker pays, at least on the first date. Splitting the bill usually signals that you're not into the person. That said, if the askee doesn't offer to treat or at least pay their portion by the second date, it's not a good sign. If you'd like to keep first dates inexpensive, don't involve drinks because those add up fast.
posted by Metroid Baby at 7:32 AM on August 14, 2010
I have to second frobozz. The "official" rule is supposed to be whoever asked, pays, but as far as I can tell, if the guy isn't shelling out on the first few dates, a lot of girls assume he doesn't like her or is a cheapskate. The woman is supposed to politely/tokenly offer to pay, and the guy is supposed to immediately brush her off and shell out until they are an official couple and can negotiate these things.
I don't necessarily like how this works (and I wouldn't be offended if I paid, sheesh), but that seems to be how the social game always plays out.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:38 AM on August 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
I don't necessarily like how this works (and I wouldn't be offended if I paid, sheesh), but that seems to be how the social game always plays out.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:38 AM on August 14, 2010 [2 favorites]
#1 - You two are free not to contact each other and leave it at that. I don't see much reason for you to contact her, though you could go on a second date to see if that changes anything. If she contacts you, then I think you should respond honestly.
Here's an old question about deciding whether to go on a second date after a first date that didn't have much chemistry. (Here's my answer.)
#2 - It's hard for Metafilter to tell you which of these women you should be most interested in. You're the one who's in the best position to judge that. For instance, the first comment says #1 is worth continuing to pursue, but #2 is out of the question. I would have said there's much more potential with #2. Sounds like maybe your schedules just didn't work out that well with #2 a couple times, but things could still work out. With #1, on the other hand, you got a decidedly no-chemistry feel from your entire experience with her. Who knows?
#3 - First of all, I'm a 29-year-old straight man in the Northeast who's done plenty of online dating. I've gone from not making much money (back when I was a student and mostly dating students) to a situation where I have a pretty good job and am likely to make significantly more money than her. Back when I didn't have much money, it was almost always the case that we would split the bill. I didn't decide to signal this in any way -- it was just ... what we did. When the bill comes, by default, the people who have ordered stuff are going to pay the bill -- duh! Same as if I were getting dinner or drinks with a male friend.
Now that I'm making more money, I do prefer to pay more than half -- I still abhor the idea of "The man pays," but I just don't feel that great if she knows I make decent money and she's a student or unemployed or underemployed or struggling to get by in a creative field, etc. Often, I'll pay the whole bill on the first date. Anytime I've done this, the reaction has been surprised and appreciative (often with her making a point to pay next time to even things out).
I would recommend playing this by ear rather than getting some exact procedure from any of us here on AskMe.
Also, the content of your OKCupid profile might have some effect. The experiences I've described could be skewed by the fact that my profile says: I'm not a "guy's guy," and I don't believe in rigid gender norms. So, women with rigid or non-egalitarian views on gender aren't very likely to be interested enough in me to go out with me in the first place (which is fine with me). I also pass over women's profiles that give me cues that she views dating as a theatre exercise in playing traditional gender roles.
For some reason, I find myself more likely to pay the whole bill if I've decided I'm not that interested in dating her. If I'm on a first or second date and am thinking, "Wow, we could be a great match, this could really be going somewhere serious..." well, then I care a lot about establishing The Way Things Are between us. And I want to be in a relationship that's very egalitarian, so I have more of an interest in splitting the bill for symbolic reasons. But, again, if there's a big financial gap that causes one person to have an easier time paying (in a totally non-gendered sense), then the most egalitarian thing could be for the richer person to usually pick up the whole tab.
If the idea for the date was clearly yours rather than hers, you could follow the rule of "The initiator pays." But in my experience with online dating, it's often pretty vague who actually asked the other out. More often, there's a general sense after some online communications that we'd like to meet in person, and we mutually agree on a place. So things aren't as clear cut as that rule would suggest; again, I would play it by ear.
I've seen other threads where the statement is made, by a woman, that she would not go out with a man who didn't pay the whole bill. This is sharply at odds with my experience. Certainly, I haven't seen anyone openly object to the idea of splitting the bill, and I can't even remember ever going on a date where she was passively not paying as an implicit signal for me to pay. Of course, there is a chance that I have, at some point, gone on a date where she went along with splitting the bill but was thinking to herself, "What a jerk, I'll never go out with him again." But I've been quite happy with my success rate from dating sites. And while I'm sure some women do honestly take the position that they would not want to go out with a man who didn't pay the whole bill, that's fine with me, because I would not want to go out with a woman who has this attitude.
posted by Jaltcoh at 7:47 AM on August 14, 2010 [6 favorites]
Here's an old question about deciding whether to go on a second date after a first date that didn't have much chemistry. (Here's my answer.)
#2 - It's hard for Metafilter to tell you which of these women you should be most interested in. You're the one who's in the best position to judge that. For instance, the first comment says #1 is worth continuing to pursue, but #2 is out of the question. I would have said there's much more potential with #2. Sounds like maybe your schedules just didn't work out that well with #2 a couple times, but things could still work out. With #1, on the other hand, you got a decidedly no-chemistry feel from your entire experience with her. Who knows?
#3 - First of all, I'm a 29-year-old straight man in the Northeast who's done plenty of online dating. I've gone from not making much money (back when I was a student and mostly dating students) to a situation where I have a pretty good job and am likely to make significantly more money than her. Back when I didn't have much money, it was almost always the case that we would split the bill. I didn't decide to signal this in any way -- it was just ... what we did. When the bill comes, by default, the people who have ordered stuff are going to pay the bill -- duh! Same as if I were getting dinner or drinks with a male friend.
Now that I'm making more money, I do prefer to pay more than half -- I still abhor the idea of "The man pays," but I just don't feel that great if she knows I make decent money and she's a student or unemployed or underemployed or struggling to get by in a creative field, etc. Often, I'll pay the whole bill on the first date. Anytime I've done this, the reaction has been surprised and appreciative (often with her making a point to pay next time to even things out).
I would recommend playing this by ear rather than getting some exact procedure from any of us here on AskMe.
Also, the content of your OKCupid profile might have some effect. The experiences I've described could be skewed by the fact that my profile says: I'm not a "guy's guy," and I don't believe in rigid gender norms. So, women with rigid or non-egalitarian views on gender aren't very likely to be interested enough in me to go out with me in the first place (which is fine with me). I also pass over women's profiles that give me cues that she views dating as a theatre exercise in playing traditional gender roles.
For some reason, I find myself more likely to pay the whole bill if I've decided I'm not that interested in dating her. If I'm on a first or second date and am thinking, "Wow, we could be a great match, this could really be going somewhere serious..." well, then I care a lot about establishing The Way Things Are between us. And I want to be in a relationship that's very egalitarian, so I have more of an interest in splitting the bill for symbolic reasons. But, again, if there's a big financial gap that causes one person to have an easier time paying (in a totally non-gendered sense), then the most egalitarian thing could be for the richer person to usually pick up the whole tab.
If the idea for the date was clearly yours rather than hers, you could follow the rule of "The initiator pays." But in my experience with online dating, it's often pretty vague who actually asked the other out. More often, there's a general sense after some online communications that we'd like to meet in person, and we mutually agree on a place. So things aren't as clear cut as that rule would suggest; again, I would play it by ear.
I've seen other threads where the statement is made, by a woman, that she would not go out with a man who didn't pay the whole bill. This is sharply at odds with my experience. Certainly, I haven't seen anyone openly object to the idea of splitting the bill, and I can't even remember ever going on a date where she was passively not paying as an implicit signal for me to pay. Of course, there is a chance that I have, at some point, gone on a date where she went along with splitting the bill but was thinking to herself, "What a jerk, I'll never go out with him again." But I've been quite happy with my success rate from dating sites. And while I'm sure some women do honestly take the position that they would not want to go out with a man who didn't pay the whole bill, that's fine with me, because I would not want to go out with a woman who has this attitude.
posted by Jaltcoh at 7:47 AM on August 14, 2010 [6 favorites]
On #3, get to the coffeehouse first, pay for your own drink and snack, and be waiting at a table. She'll buy her own and join you.
posted by salvia at 8:01 AM on August 14, 2010
posted by salvia at 8:01 AM on August 14, 2010
This is just me (and I'm cheap) but:
1) No first date dinners. Horrible torture. Take a walk, buy a sandwich, sit by the river, ocean, lake, construction site, walk around a museum. No dinner. So awkward. Torture.
2) Don't try to figure anyone out. You could call her on it. "what's the story, do you want to hang out again?" Sometimes it better to do something awkward and see if the person responds, usually they won't, and then you know it's dead. Which is good, because then you stop thinking about it.
3) well, this reflects on #1. Don't make first dates financial undertakings. Even if the person seems really great online. I'm extremely broke but will try to buy the soda/sandwich/taco whatever that we end up getting along the way. Yes, I think it's stupid but it's worth $7 for me not to feel awkward. Would not be worth $25, but that's why no first date dinners.
I think the secret of this process is getting to no. Because you don't want to waste your time. Person is acting awkward and you want to know why? Ask them. Maybe they don't like you. Get it over with and move on.
posted by sully75 at 8:19 AM on August 14, 2010 [4 favorites]
1) No first date dinners. Horrible torture. Take a walk, buy a sandwich, sit by the river, ocean, lake, construction site, walk around a museum. No dinner. So awkward. Torture.
2) Don't try to figure anyone out. You could call her on it. "what's the story, do you want to hang out again?" Sometimes it better to do something awkward and see if the person responds, usually they won't, and then you know it's dead. Which is good, because then you stop thinking about it.
3) well, this reflects on #1. Don't make first dates financial undertakings. Even if the person seems really great online. I'm extremely broke but will try to buy the soda/sandwich/taco whatever that we end up getting along the way. Yes, I think it's stupid but it's worth $7 for me not to feel awkward. Would not be worth $25, but that's why no first date dinners.
I think the secret of this process is getting to no. Because you don't want to waste your time. Person is acting awkward and you want to know why? Ask them. Maybe they don't like you. Get it over with and move on.
posted by sully75 at 8:19 AM on August 14, 2010 [4 favorites]
Situation #3:
Go to a place where you stand up to order, then immediately pay for your own food, like Panera or a good Indian joint with a counter (I think there is one near Diesel, if I am remembering my Boston geography correctly). I am a female who likes to split the check, and going this route is a lot less awkward. The few online dates I've had have been amicable to splitting the check at sit-down places, though.
I had a bad experience in high school with a boyfriend who paid for everything and then had expectations because of it. It is really important to me to split the bill or pay for what I ordered, or at least alternate paying the bill.
Situation #1:
This is tough for me, too, but I think learning to tell someone you like them but don't feel that spark is an important skill to have in online dating. You don't want to waste their time when they could be meeting the person who does have that feeling for them. If I want to be friends with a dude, I try not to say "lets just be friends", as that sounds disingenuous to my ears, but I do say something like "I enjoy spending time with you". That implies that I like being around them, not that I'm letting them down easy because I don't like them at all.
Situation #2:
You have a lot of options in your online dating world, and I'd personally nix someone who was being as indirect as she is.
posted by santaslittlehelper at 8:24 AM on August 14, 2010
Go to a place where you stand up to order, then immediately pay for your own food, like Panera or a good Indian joint with a counter (I think there is one near Diesel, if I am remembering my Boston geography correctly). I am a female who likes to split the check, and going this route is a lot less awkward. The few online dates I've had have been amicable to splitting the check at sit-down places, though.
I had a bad experience in high school with a boyfriend who paid for everything and then had expectations because of it. It is really important to me to split the bill or pay for what I ordered, or at least alternate paying the bill.
Situation #1:
This is tough for me, too, but I think learning to tell someone you like them but don't feel that spark is an important skill to have in online dating. You don't want to waste their time when they could be meeting the person who does have that feeling for them. If I want to be friends with a dude, I try not to say "lets just be friends", as that sounds disingenuous to my ears, but I do say something like "I enjoy spending time with you". That implies that I like being around them, not that I'm letting them down easy because I don't like them at all.
Situation #2:
You have a lot of options in your online dating world, and I'd personally nix someone who was being as indirect as she is.
posted by santaslittlehelper at 8:24 AM on August 14, 2010
A few simple rules for online dating in light of your "situations".
1. Keep it simple and casual. That way if you do feel you ought to pay, you're not going to feel bad about it. Go for coffees, go to happy hour, go on a free or super cheap outing (museum, free concert, etc), get something to eat at a casual place.
2. You've got to be open and assertive with people. This is a stranger from the internet. You have no idea how they tick. You are not in a place where you can just be like, "oh, hey, want to hang out again sometime this weekend?" and leave it there. If you want to see someone again, ask them along on a specific activity. "Do you want to go see Inception on Saturday?" "I'm going to go check out this new beer garden after work on Friday. Want to come with?" It will be much easier to tell the person's intentions this way. Something noncommittal means they're probably not that into you. A yes in that situation is a clear yes. Or they can communicate that they want to see you but that specific time or event doesn't work for them, and they are free to suggest something else.
3. You have no responsibility to anyone you didn't hit it off with. Again, this is a stranger from the internet. If you didn't click, you didn't click. Also in this vein, and this comes from my experience with dudes from OKCupid and not necessarily what you wrote here -- you need to be able to take no for an answer. I've had a hard time on internet dates where I didn't hit it off with the guy and he would NOT allow me to gracefully bow out. Do not try to trick people into saying they'll see you again. Do not try to convince someone they should stay for another drink or move the date to another venue. Just as you have the freedom never to call again, you need to give your partner the freedom not to be interested.
posted by Sara C. at 8:25 AM on August 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
1. Keep it simple and casual. That way if you do feel you ought to pay, you're not going to feel bad about it. Go for coffees, go to happy hour, go on a free or super cheap outing (museum, free concert, etc), get something to eat at a casual place.
2. You've got to be open and assertive with people. This is a stranger from the internet. You have no idea how they tick. You are not in a place where you can just be like, "oh, hey, want to hang out again sometime this weekend?" and leave it there. If you want to see someone again, ask them along on a specific activity. "Do you want to go see Inception on Saturday?" "I'm going to go check out this new beer garden after work on Friday. Want to come with?" It will be much easier to tell the person's intentions this way. Something noncommittal means they're probably not that into you. A yes in that situation is a clear yes. Or they can communicate that they want to see you but that specific time or event doesn't work for them, and they are free to suggest something else.
3. You have no responsibility to anyone you didn't hit it off with. Again, this is a stranger from the internet. If you didn't click, you didn't click. Also in this vein, and this comes from my experience with dudes from OKCupid and not necessarily what you wrote here -- you need to be able to take no for an answer. I've had a hard time on internet dates where I didn't hit it off with the guy and he would NOT allow me to gracefully bow out. Do not try to trick people into saying they'll see you again. Do not try to convince someone they should stay for another drink or move the date to another venue. Just as you have the freedom never to call again, you need to give your partner the freedom not to be interested.
posted by Sara C. at 8:25 AM on August 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
If they're in crappy financial situations, they should be saying things like "That restaurant sounds great, but it's a little pricey for me. What about [other less expensive place] instead?"
This can be very difficult to do. I was brought up to not talk about money with people I don't know well, and, again, this is a stranger from the internet - the definition of "people you don't know well". Dating people who make more money than I do makes it even harder. It is really, really hard for me to come right out and bluntly state that I can't afford X activity. As I become more confident and better at dating, I find graceful ways to get out of this situation. But it's still kind of difficult and can lead to awkwardness. Much better to start with a really affordable venue on first meeting, and keep it that way until you get to a place where you can talk about this stuff.
posted by Sara C. at 8:31 AM on August 14, 2010
This can be very difficult to do. I was brought up to not talk about money with people I don't know well, and, again, this is a stranger from the internet - the definition of "people you don't know well". Dating people who make more money than I do makes it even harder. It is really, really hard for me to come right out and bluntly state that I can't afford X activity. As I become more confident and better at dating, I find graceful ways to get out of this situation. But it's still kind of difficult and can lead to awkwardness. Much better to start with a really affordable venue on first meeting, and keep it that way until you get to a place where you can talk about this stuff.
posted by Sara C. at 8:31 AM on August 14, 2010
Just out of curiosity: I also pass over women's profiles that give me cues that she views dating as a theatre exercise in playing traditional gender roles.
Jalctoh, do you mind elaborating on this? What are some cues that a woman views dating this way? (I ask because I'm a woman trying to avoid such guys)
posted by lunasol at 9:17 AM on August 14, 2010
Jalctoh, do you mind elaborating on this? What are some cues that a woman views dating this way? (I ask because I'm a woman trying to avoid such guys)
posted by lunasol at 9:17 AM on August 14, 2010
#1 No further contact necessary. Probably the lack of chemistry was mutual, and since she's a woman dating on the internet, she probably has 6 other dates lined up this week, so lack of spark with you is not really a big deal. If she contacts you, I would say its fine to give a oh-i'm-so-busy excuse, give her another shot, or be straightforward that you didn't think it was going anywhere but you wish her the best. None are unacceptable or particularly insulting.
2# It seems like she keeps contacting you so is probably still somewhat interested (warning though: feelings change fast in online dating realm). I'd give it another SOLID shot. call or email her and say "Do you want to go out sometime this week?" and then make an actual date. Force her to accept or decline. then you have your answer.
3# I was a poor graduate student when I was online dating. Even if I knew the guy made way more money than I did, I offered to pay half and I usually succeeded. That said, I am one of these women who is creeped out by having doors opened for her, so I'm probably toward the extreme end of the who-pays spectrum. If I was actually interested in a guy, I would occasionally give in and let him treat, but would ABSOLUTELY cover the bill on the second date, or at least buy drinks later.
posted by juliapangolin at 9:37 AM on August 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
2# It seems like she keeps contacting you so is probably still somewhat interested (warning though: feelings change fast in online dating realm). I'd give it another SOLID shot. call or email her and say "Do you want to go out sometime this week?" and then make an actual date. Force her to accept or decline. then you have your answer.
3# I was a poor graduate student when I was online dating. Even if I knew the guy made way more money than I did, I offered to pay half and I usually succeeded. That said, I am one of these women who is creeped out by having doors opened for her, so I'm probably toward the extreme end of the who-pays spectrum. If I was actually interested in a guy, I would occasionally give in and let him treat, but would ABSOLUTELY cover the bill on the second date, or at least buy drinks later.
posted by juliapangolin at 9:37 AM on August 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
For #1, I would definitely not want the guy to just disappear. I'd like at least a polite email along the lines of what hansbrough said. I really hate when people just drop off the face of the earth.
As for #3, I've paid for dates, split checks, gotten the movie tickets while he got dinner, etc. My boyfriend and I have been together for five years, and he usually pays now when we go out, but I do things like bring his favorite iced tea each week, bring food, bake for him, and other things.
Obviously you're not there yet. Go for dates at smaller places, less expensive places, have each person get his or her own movie ticket, or maybe one person gets tickets and the other gets snacks. Just keep things super casual until you know you're on the path to something.
posted by cmgonzalez at 9:44 AM on August 14, 2010
As for #3, I've paid for dates, split checks, gotten the movie tickets while he got dinner, etc. My boyfriend and I have been together for five years, and he usually pays now when we go out, but I do things like bring his favorite iced tea each week, bring food, bake for him, and other things.
Obviously you're not there yet. Go for dates at smaller places, less expensive places, have each person get his or her own movie ticket, or maybe one person gets tickets and the other gets snacks. Just keep things super casual until you know you're on the path to something.
posted by cmgonzalez at 9:44 AM on August 14, 2010
Jaltcoh, do you mind elaborating on this? What are some cues that a woman views dating this way? (I ask because I'm a woman trying to avoid such guys)
I'd be happy to answer this, maybe we could talk about it over email? It was an incidental part of my comment and doesn't seem that relevant to the OP's question. (I assume when you say you're "trying to avoid such guys," you mean you're trying to avoid the same kinds of people I'm avoiding, not that you're trying to avoid guys like me!)
posted by Jaltcoh at 10:05 AM on August 14, 2010
I'd be happy to answer this, maybe we could talk about it over email? It was an incidental part of my comment and doesn't seem that relevant to the OP's question. (I assume when you say you're "trying to avoid such guys," you mean you're trying to avoid the same kinds of people I'm avoiding, not that you're trying to avoid guys like me!)
posted by Jaltcoh at 10:05 AM on August 14, 2010
I don't have much experience with online dating, so I won't comment on Situations 1 and 2.
One idea on the paying issue: When the check comes, don't just grab it and pay with no comment. Try something like this script:
You: "Since I invited you out, this is my treat." [Sort of act as though she has offered to pay or has reached for her wallet, even if she hasn't.]
Her: "Oh, I can pay for my part / Are you sure? / [other polite refusal]"
You: "Oh, of course--I'm happy to treat you to lunch. Tell you what, you can get it next time...
And of course, if she does press and insist on paying or splitting, let her. That's a pretty clear way to let her know that you are ok with splitting the expenses. And if a discussion of paying/finances/etc. happens to come up, I think it's perfectly okay to talk about openly, especially if you're talking in generalities ("I'm curious--how do you feel about things like men holding doors, or men always paying for dates?" rather than about your specific situation.)
Just a datapoint for you: I am a late-20s female, and I much prefer splitting and/or alternating paying in dating situations. My last boyfriend made almost 5 times as much money as I did while we were dating, and we still generally split expenses (although it was probably more of a 60-40% split than a 50-50% split), usually by taking turns paying. And this was the case from our very first date onwards.
I agree with others in here that the asker/initiator should offer (and be willing) to pay. Splitting the check can be a perfectly fine arrangement, but sometimes it feels nicer to take turns paying for events/dates. Also agree that when the other person goes to pay the whole bill, it is polite to offer to pay your half (or at the very least offer to pay the tip or something).
posted by aka burlap at 10:11 AM on August 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
One idea on the paying issue: When the check comes, don't just grab it and pay with no comment. Try something like this script:
You: "Since I invited you out, this is my treat." [Sort of act as though she has offered to pay or has reached for her wallet, even if she hasn't.]
Her: "Oh, I can pay for my part / Are you sure? / [other polite refusal]"
You: "Oh, of course--I'm happy to treat you to lunch. Tell you what, you can get it next time...
And of course, if she does press and insist on paying or splitting, let her. That's a pretty clear way to let her know that you are ok with splitting the expenses. And if a discussion of paying/finances/etc. happens to come up, I think it's perfectly okay to talk about openly, especially if you're talking in generalities ("I'm curious--how do you feel about things like men holding doors, or men always paying for dates?" rather than about your specific situation.)
Just a datapoint for you: I am a late-20s female, and I much prefer splitting and/or alternating paying in dating situations. My last boyfriend made almost 5 times as much money as I did while we were dating, and we still generally split expenses (although it was probably more of a 60-40% split than a 50-50% split), usually by taking turns paying. And this was the case from our very first date onwards.
I agree with others in here that the asker/initiator should offer (and be willing) to pay. Splitting the check can be a perfectly fine arrangement, but sometimes it feels nicer to take turns paying for events/dates. Also agree that when the other person goes to pay the whole bill, it is polite to offer to pay your half (or at the very least offer to pay the tip or something).
posted by aka burlap at 10:11 AM on August 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
I'm the most feminist of the feminists, but if the guy doesn't pay the first check on the first date (regardless of who asked whom) then I assume he's not interested. Invariably, I offer to pay, and invariably, he says no, unless he's trying to tell me "we're just friends."
I think paying the first check has become divorced from its original gender connotations, and has evolved into a new sort of ritual. In practice, most relationships are quite financially equal these days. Nobody expects the man to pay for everything and the woman to stay home and not work. The message sent by the man paying the bill is no longer "the man always pays." Instead, these days, money is a symbol of caring and generosity -- and if you split the first check, nobody gets to make that gesture of caring and generosity. So now we just have a new baseline rule (evolved from the old rule that men pay all) to establish who makes the first gesture of caring and generosity -- the man.
I should add that I always figure out a way to pay for a second round of drinks or an ice cream cone for dessert, and I pay at least half for the second date. I establish really early on in a relationship that we're going to be equally generous, and if I can't keep up financially then I find substitutes -- he gets an expensive dinner for me one night; I cook him dinner the next. You'd be fair to feel wary if she doesn't start sharing costs early on, in my opinion. But the upshot is, you're going to risk sending the wrong signal if you don't pick up the first check.
Specs: I'm a mid-30s women living in big cities, mostly dating financial equals. YMMV for younger crowds or more conservative cities or big income inequalities.
posted by yarly at 11:04 AM on August 14, 2010 [3 favorites]
I think paying the first check has become divorced from its original gender connotations, and has evolved into a new sort of ritual. In practice, most relationships are quite financially equal these days. Nobody expects the man to pay for everything and the woman to stay home and not work. The message sent by the man paying the bill is no longer "the man always pays." Instead, these days, money is a symbol of caring and generosity -- and if you split the first check, nobody gets to make that gesture of caring and generosity. So now we just have a new baseline rule (evolved from the old rule that men pay all) to establish who makes the first gesture of caring and generosity -- the man.
I should add that I always figure out a way to pay for a second round of drinks or an ice cream cone for dessert, and I pay at least half for the second date. I establish really early on in a relationship that we're going to be equally generous, and if I can't keep up financially then I find substitutes -- he gets an expensive dinner for me one night; I cook him dinner the next. You'd be fair to feel wary if she doesn't start sharing costs early on, in my opinion. But the upshot is, you're going to risk sending the wrong signal if you don't pick up the first check.
Specs: I'm a mid-30s women living in big cities, mostly dating financial equals. YMMV for younger crowds or more conservative cities or big income inequalities.
posted by yarly at 11:04 AM on August 14, 2010 [3 favorites]
If you're concerned about how expensive these dates are becoming, then be more choosy about who you take out, and keep the dates simple, limited to coffee or a drink. Keep the more extravagant outings for a 2nd or 3rd date. You could cook for the girl at that point, too. The guy I'm currently with cooked me dinner on the 3rd date, I was thrilled by it - he's a keeper :)
I agree that the guy should be willing to pay, and absolutely not put forth that he wants me to split it or infer that I should get it. That's a faux-pas. I (and all respectable girls IMO) will offer to contribute, and you can graciously accept or suggest she pick up the next round, the tip, etc. If she doesn't offer to contribute by the 2nd date, ditch her.
posted by lizbunny at 11:18 AM on August 14, 2010
I agree that the guy should be willing to pay, and absolutely not put forth that he wants me to split it or infer that I should get it. That's a faux-pas. I (and all respectable girls IMO) will offer to contribute, and you can graciously accept or suggest she pick up the next round, the tip, etc. If she doesn't offer to contribute by the 2nd date, ditch her.
posted by lizbunny at 11:18 AM on August 14, 2010
A lot of what I'm going to say has been said, but I figured I'll chime in with my opinion. To give you context, I'm a woman in my early 20's and have used Okcupid.
1. It's fine if you don't contact her. This has happened to me a few times when it was obvious that we didn't have any chemistry. I didn't even think about him much afterwards, and it was a non-issue. If he had sent me a follow-up "I'm not feeling it" email, it would have just been more awkward for me.
2. Agreed with a lot of what was already said-- try one more time to make definite plans. I have never had a situation where I just started seeing someone and they said, "I'll be at [certain place], you can join me if you'd like." It's so wishy-washy, and I would feel like I'm intruding or he didn't care, and why would I want to be somewhere if he hasn't explicitly made it clear he wanted my company? I feel this is a dating etiquette thing, and not specific to online dating. In the beginning, make definite plans.
3. Argh, the paying thing-- always such a touchy subject and caused me some distress figuring it out. I don't have a problem with paying my share, and for the most part, prefer to split the bill. First of all, the first meeting from online I never associate as a date but more a meeting, and I would not expect him to pay, though he usually ends up doing it anyway. The best way to alleviate this situation is to always have first meetings be very casual. Places that you pay right away are good, I feel. As soon as you get into the sitting down to dinner in a nice-ish restaurant realm, it feels much more date-like, and then I default to societal norms about paying on dates.
For sit down dinners, though I am fine with paying my share, many women (myself included), it is still appreciated when the man offers to pay the first bill. Of course I would offer to pay, but I know this is mostly just a gesture, and he always declines. And then I'd offer to pay for drinks/dessert/next time. Figuring how much each person pays is no fun even when out with friends, and I feel the more gentleman way to go is to spend as little time talking about money as possible on the first "date"-- hence the 2 second exchange of offering to pay but declining, versus figuring out who owes what. I don't want to make the situation more uncomfortable, so I usually don't push it.
Someone said: You: "Since I invited you out, this is my treat." [Sort of act as though she has offered to pay or has reached for her wallet, even if she hasn't.
I wouldn't do this. I would be put off if my date did this. It would sound like he's doing me a huge favor (granted, he is, but like I said, it's better to spend as little time discussing the bill as possible, and this just draws more attention to it, and seems to have a "Look at me, I'm paying for you" feel to it. I think it's more polite and appreciated when the man makes it out to be not a big deal the fact he's paying, and in fact, is happy to do it because he enjoyed my company.)
Also, there have been times when I was a student/unemployed and went out to dinner with a man who had a stable career. Of course I offered to pay, but I would have thought he was cheap/rude/not interested if he did not decline my offer because he knows he's making much much more than me. This is another reason to always suggest casual/cheap places first. It was usually his idea to go to a nicer place, and I just feel uncomfortable saying, "Uh, I can't afford it," especially if I knew he enjoyed nicer atmospheres and the only places I could afford are dingy places. I usually have to just bear it be prepare to pay, and it's just nice when he offers to cover me. In these situations, I am going to this place only to enjoy his company and get to know him and I would not have gone on my own.
posted by lacedcoffee at 11:50 AM on August 14, 2010
1. It's fine if you don't contact her. This has happened to me a few times when it was obvious that we didn't have any chemistry. I didn't even think about him much afterwards, and it was a non-issue. If he had sent me a follow-up "I'm not feeling it" email, it would have just been more awkward for me.
2. Agreed with a lot of what was already said-- try one more time to make definite plans. I have never had a situation where I just started seeing someone and they said, "I'll be at [certain place], you can join me if you'd like." It's so wishy-washy, and I would feel like I'm intruding or he didn't care, and why would I want to be somewhere if he hasn't explicitly made it clear he wanted my company? I feel this is a dating etiquette thing, and not specific to online dating. In the beginning, make definite plans.
3. Argh, the paying thing-- always such a touchy subject and caused me some distress figuring it out. I don't have a problem with paying my share, and for the most part, prefer to split the bill. First of all, the first meeting from online I never associate as a date but more a meeting, and I would not expect him to pay, though he usually ends up doing it anyway. The best way to alleviate this situation is to always have first meetings be very casual. Places that you pay right away are good, I feel. As soon as you get into the sitting down to dinner in a nice-ish restaurant realm, it feels much more date-like, and then I default to societal norms about paying on dates.
For sit down dinners, though I am fine with paying my share, many women (myself included), it is still appreciated when the man offers to pay the first bill. Of course I would offer to pay, but I know this is mostly just a gesture, and he always declines. And then I'd offer to pay for drinks/dessert/next time. Figuring how much each person pays is no fun even when out with friends, and I feel the more gentleman way to go is to spend as little time talking about money as possible on the first "date"-- hence the 2 second exchange of offering to pay but declining, versus figuring out who owes what. I don't want to make the situation more uncomfortable, so I usually don't push it.
Someone said: You: "Since I invited you out, this is my treat." [Sort of act as though she has offered to pay or has reached for her wallet, even if she hasn't.
I wouldn't do this. I would be put off if my date did this. It would sound like he's doing me a huge favor (granted, he is, but like I said, it's better to spend as little time discussing the bill as possible, and this just draws more attention to it, and seems to have a "Look at me, I'm paying for you" feel to it. I think it's more polite and appreciated when the man makes it out to be not a big deal the fact he's paying, and in fact, is happy to do it because he enjoyed my company.)
Also, there have been times when I was a student/unemployed and went out to dinner with a man who had a stable career. Of course I offered to pay, but I would have thought he was cheap/rude/not interested if he did not decline my offer because he knows he's making much much more than me. This is another reason to always suggest casual/cheap places first. It was usually his idea to go to a nicer place, and I just feel uncomfortable saying, "Uh, I can't afford it," especially if I knew he enjoyed nicer atmospheres and the only places I could afford are dingy places. I usually have to just bear it be prepare to pay, and it's just nice when he offers to cover me. In these situations, I am going to this place only to enjoy his company and get to know him and I would not have gone on my own.
posted by lacedcoffee at 11:50 AM on August 14, 2010
I think paying the first check has become divorced from its original gender connotations, and has evolved into a new sort of ritual. In practice, most relationships are quite financially equal these days. Nobody expects the man to pay for everything and the woman to stay home and not work. The message sent by the man paying the bill is no longer "the man always pays." Instead, these days, money is a symbol of caring and generosity -- and if you split the first check, nobody gets to make that gesture of caring and generosity. So now we just have a new baseline rule (evolved from the old rule that men pay all) to establish who makes the first gesture of caring and generosity -- the man.
Well, that's the gender connotation: that men are the ones who show women how much they care by paying for them. If it were just a matter of wanting to have one person pay for the other in order to display generosity, then why would it matter which gender did it? Now, I'm not saying everyone should follow my guidelines (from my earlier comment) about how to do these things. Those want to have the man always pay on the first date can and will go ahead and do that. But I simply don't believe that people who follow this practice aren't making an implicit statement about gender roles. As your comment shows, it's hardly possible to explain a non-gendered rationale for doing it.
posted by Jaltcoh at 2:00 PM on August 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
Well, that's the gender connotation: that men are the ones who show women how much they care by paying for them. If it were just a matter of wanting to have one person pay for the other in order to display generosity, then why would it matter which gender did it? Now, I'm not saying everyone should follow my guidelines (from my earlier comment) about how to do these things. Those want to have the man always pay on the first date can and will go ahead and do that. But I simply don't believe that people who follow this practice aren't making an implicit statement about gender roles. As your comment shows, it's hardly possible to explain a non-gendered rationale for doing it.
posted by Jaltcoh at 2:00 PM on August 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
Well, that's the gender connotation: that men are the ones who show women how much they care by paying for them.
Only the first time -- after that, the expectations about paying are much more equal than they used to be. Obviously though there's still some element of gender roles at play, but in my experience, the man paying first has become largely divorced from any further meaning about gender. It's just a symbol, as much as a white wedding dress and the father "giving away" the bride and the bride taking the husband's last name look like snapshots from a more unequal past, but really don't have the same meanings now.
Those want to have the man always pay on the first date can and will go ahead and do that.
In my experience, for whatever reason, it actually isn't really an option. The "men pay first" rule has become so hard coded to mean something that if you don't pay, you're sending the message that you're not interested. I don't really like it, but I've come to accept it. But, there are always exceptions -- if you really do put in your profile that "I'm not a 'guy's guy,' and I don't believe in rigid gender norms" then I would probably not jump to conclusions about you not paying, and I would understand that not paying was a more important symbol to you than paying.
Another aspect of this is cultural -- splitting a bill just seems unfriendly and unromantic to me sometimes, regardless of who's paying. But that might be because I spent a significant amount of time in a hyper-social city (Madrid) where people think splitting bills at bars is kinda rude and cold -- you get one round, then your friend gets the next, and so it goes.
posted by yarly at 2:55 PM on August 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
Only the first time -- after that, the expectations about paying are much more equal than they used to be. Obviously though there's still some element of gender roles at play, but in my experience, the man paying first has become largely divorced from any further meaning about gender. It's just a symbol, as much as a white wedding dress and the father "giving away" the bride and the bride taking the husband's last name look like snapshots from a more unequal past, but really don't have the same meanings now.
Those want to have the man always pay on the first date can and will go ahead and do that.
In my experience, for whatever reason, it actually isn't really an option. The "men pay first" rule has become so hard coded to mean something that if you don't pay, you're sending the message that you're not interested. I don't really like it, but I've come to accept it. But, there are always exceptions -- if you really do put in your profile that "I'm not a 'guy's guy,' and I don't believe in rigid gender norms" then I would probably not jump to conclusions about you not paying, and I would understand that not paying was a more important symbol to you than paying.
Another aspect of this is cultural -- splitting a bill just seems unfriendly and unromantic to me sometimes, regardless of who's paying. But that might be because I spent a significant amount of time in a hyper-social city (Madrid) where people think splitting bills at bars is kinda rude and cold -- you get one round, then your friend gets the next, and so it goes.
posted by yarly at 2:55 PM on August 14, 2010 [1 favorite]
I have limited online dating experience, but I met Mr. amusebuche online, FWIW. My sense is that chemistry presents itself fairly immediately, and you can trust your gut on the first meeting, though if someone really seems to fit your criteria and interests in their profile and emails to you, it might be worth a second date to make sure something wasn't just off during your first meeting. As for the second situation, it just seems too scattered to pursue further. You tried. There's no click there.
On the paying conundrum, I guess you just have to consider how you feel about the stereotyped gender roles vis-a-vis the person you are with and act accordingly. This isn't you just randomly meeting someone and asking them out, in which case I think it's appropriate for the asker to cover the tab (whether they are male or female). This is online dating, where you're both supposed to be in the game for mutual reasons. For this reason I think both parties should expect to go dutch on the first few meetings. (I can't believe how many women here are saying the guy should unilaterally pay. I must be a militant feminist).
This doesn't mean it's not a nice gesture to grab the bill (and I was also likely to do so on any early date, if I was having a great time and hoping there might be a next time). I was nearly always in the situation of earning less than the guy I was dating, but I still feel really strongly about going dutch or taking turns until more intimacy is established and we can work out what feels "fair".
But one way to avoid all the trouble is to make sure the first meeting is just coffee. Personally, if I was a guy, I wouldn't want to date a woman who expected me to treat every time, even if I offered the first time or two. To me, that just suggests a setup for a bad relationship dynamic. She should do some inviting and some paying too. You're not rude and crazy to expect some reciprocity. This is the 21st Century, after all. If she never offers, then maybe she's not a good match. Obviously, a lot of women here feel kind of ambiguous about it, but there are plenty of women like me who think it's important to share responsibility for the check.
posted by amusebuche at 4:19 PM on August 14, 2010
On the paying conundrum, I guess you just have to consider how you feel about the stereotyped gender roles vis-a-vis the person you are with and act accordingly. This isn't you just randomly meeting someone and asking them out, in which case I think it's appropriate for the asker to cover the tab (whether they are male or female). This is online dating, where you're both supposed to be in the game for mutual reasons. For this reason I think both parties should expect to go dutch on the first few meetings. (I can't believe how many women here are saying the guy should unilaterally pay. I must be a militant feminist).
This doesn't mean it's not a nice gesture to grab the bill (and I was also likely to do so on any early date, if I was having a great time and hoping there might be a next time). I was nearly always in the situation of earning less than the guy I was dating, but I still feel really strongly about going dutch or taking turns until more intimacy is established and we can work out what feels "fair".
But one way to avoid all the trouble is to make sure the first meeting is just coffee. Personally, if I was a guy, I wouldn't want to date a woman who expected me to treat every time, even if I offered the first time or two. To me, that just suggests a setup for a bad relationship dynamic. She should do some inviting and some paying too. You're not rude and crazy to expect some reciprocity. This is the 21st Century, after all. If she never offers, then maybe she's not a good match. Obviously, a lot of women here feel kind of ambiguous about it, but there are plenty of women like me who think it's important to share responsibility for the check.
posted by amusebuche at 4:19 PM on August 14, 2010
Well for #3 I just always have first dates in places like santaslittlehelper mentioned. Places where you order and pay at the counter (usually coffee or deli type places). As a girl, I don't want the guy to feel like he needs to buy a meal for someone he just met and this makes it easy. Person one steps up, orders, pays. Person two steps up, orders, pays. You find a table together. Repeat this for a couple dates, buying a movie ticket works the same way, as does renting ice skates or getting into the botanic gardens/museums etc.
posted by magnetsphere at 6:44 PM on August 15, 2010
posted by magnetsphere at 6:44 PM on August 15, 2010
I get that there are some practical solutions on how to split the bill but there's some ettiquette in questions also. it's odd to me when a guy is waiting at the coffeeshop with his drink and snack or when a guy's said 'so we'll split this?' it feels like money was such a big deal that he made this unnecessarily clear. just kind of makes me think twice about what he's trying to convey on this date. and i've always been the kind of girl that pays on the 1st date (back when i felt i had something to prove!).
i think that if the check splitting is that big of a deal (b/c ur dating alot or whatever), pick a walk in the park or coffee where you won't feel so put out. and if you like her, then go out for dinner so you'll feel it's worth the investment.
hopefully, you'll date women that will offer to pay or split anyway.
posted by UltraD at 11:40 AM on August 16, 2010
i think that if the check splitting is that big of a deal (b/c ur dating alot or whatever), pick a walk in the park or coffee where you won't feel so put out. and if you like her, then go out for dinner so you'll feel it's worth the investment.
hopefully, you'll date women that will offer to pay or split anyway.
posted by UltraD at 11:40 AM on August 16, 2010
This thread is closed to new comments.
Situation 2: That girl is a mess. Run.
Siituation 3: I'm 40 now and have been off the dating market for four years, so I feel like my advice may be dated or at least demographically bracketed. But here's how it was in my world not so long ago, and I thought it worked: If you initiated the invitation for the first date, then please expect to pay for that one - whatever you end up doing - the whole date, not round by round. If she initiates, then she should pay. Initiator pays. After that, until further notice, you should generally be keeping things even, switching back and forth. Do you think the women you're dating expect you to pay for everything? If so, that's a bit of a red flag.
If they're in crappy financial situations, they should be saying things like "That restaurant sounds great, but it's a little pricey for me. What about [other less expensive place] instead?" A polite thing is for the datee to always offer to pay their share, even when it's the dater's turn, unless the dater says "Please, my treat" at the outset. ]
If you date more than three times and it seems like you're planning to continue, then you'll probably end up having a conversation about how to balance out your activities so both can live within their means and not feel exploited.
I hope you're not encountering situations in which women expect you to foot the bill for their food and entertainment. That's so pre-1960. But maybe it's making a comeback.
posted by Miko at 6:54 AM on August 14, 2010 [1 favorite]