How can I adapt to fix problems with long-term girlfriend's family? (semi-long explaination, sorry)
July 22, 2009 3:28 PM Subscribe
How do I fix problems that've (apparently festered for a while) sprung up between my girlfriend's family and I?
Before I get started, I'd like to point out that I'm not trying to change my way-of-life, or become something I'm not... just try to more flexible and present m'self better.
Here's the basic problem:
My long-term girlfriend is living at home due to lingering medical/depression issues which she's coming out of, but at that point where she's unsure of herself. I'm doing my best to be supportive and not push too much.
We've had a long-distance relationship for a while, so we saw each other for a year or so of one-week-at-her-home, one-week-at-mine.
Recently, I moved up here, as my schedule allowed me to do my work online, and tensions have come to a bit more of a head between her family and I.
I admit, I don't understand a lot of the "rules" of the family.
Finally, after ... what I'd imagine is almost a year of tiptoing around the subject, she had them sit down, and during the course of discussion, her two-years-younger, senior/college sister pointed out that she just trys to avoid me as she doesn't like me, and the parents can't understand our relationship.
--------------------
Short background
To make a long story short, I spent most of college preparing to take a military commission, that fell apart after I graduated, I spent six months overseas learning a language (Awesome Girlfriend joined be for about two-- we got back just as the economy imploded), then since I've come back, I've been getting a second degree while looking for jobs. (it's been... rough. Not a unique situation, I'm sure, but probably reinforces their "what's he doing with his life?" nagging questions) I'm in a lucky position (due to both assistance from family, and my own good planning from years of saving) where I don't have to find one right-away, and so am quite comfortable doing what I need to do for the long term (the second degree (first one was a polisci when, for the military all I needed was "a degree". This one's for my field-of-work interest). Over this summer, I realized I could take a full load of classes online, so figured "Well, if I can pursue my job/school from anywhere... may as well be closer to Awesome Girlfriend." So I moved up to Chicago from Texas, and have been enjoying the city, and getting my schoolwork done.
--------------------------------
Family Concerns (... as passed from Awesome Girlfriend. I've never really gotten a straight answer when I've asked...):
I'm uncouth/don't fit in/stilted personality.
I'm "unfocused" (I don't know exactly what I want to do for a career, and don't seem to be going about it in the "right way")
"Why do you like him?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
My Answers/Mitigating Factors:
Uncouth/Don't fit in: Honestly, our upbringings were very different. Example from my father, in conversation: "So, with the new medication that Awesome Girlfriend is taking, how's her sex drive been affected?" Me: "Actually, ::explanation here::" (Awesome Girlfriend's pointed out many times that this is apparently an awkward subject for most people. My dad and I don't really have a concept of awkward... it's kind of nice that way, though I've accepted that she does, and tried to learn what causes it.)
The countervailing example: (in casual conversation) AG's Mother, poking fun at AG snoring on a plane: "Yeah, you were waking everyone up..." Me: "Just twack her with a pillow. That usually stops it." (Twenty minutes of frowning later) "You know, you shouldn't ever imply that you've slept near my daughter... It's not right."
To my mind this doesn't make sense. When she comes down to visit me ("half the time", which's turned into a day or two/week), we obviously sleep together. Or, I could've been talking about also sleeping next to her on a plane. Or, we've napped in their home together on a couch. Or, we lived in Berlin for six months together, they've seen photos of the apartment, it was obviously one bedroom....
I'm not stupid, so obviously I wouldn't discuss sex. ... except they make jokes about it (not between the two of us, but random-off-color-jokes, etc). Her mother's told her "Between the two of your medical conditions, you guys have a chance for normal kids!", etc.
(So, to my mind, it's obviously not COMPLETELY taboo... but I stay away anyway.)
There are more subjects (I'm racking my brain for an example) of things that are apparently just ... "not polite".
I'm doing my best to keep a running tally, but sometimes, they seem to come out of left field.
Ah-- when I stand from a table, I pick my chair up. This is apparently very... odd, to their mind. In my family, I was chastised if I didn't-- by dragging it, you put unequal tension on the legs, you can damage them, etc.
All in all, not big things, but apparently they're offended/put-off that I'm not more adaptable when I'm under their roof.
(For a year and a half, they encouraged me, when AG stayed at her home, and I stayed over, to help her get ready for bed, brush teeth, etc. As I moved up here, AG's parents told her this made them/sister very uncomfortable. ... I'm not sure where the disconnect was-- there was no sex, nothing tawdry... just two people being silly and chit-chatting while performing evening ablutions... it went from (to me:) "thank you for doing that" to (to AG:) "he is not going to do that in our house.")
I've been told, by Awesome Girlfriend, in no uncertain terms, that her asking about "where the lines are" would create family problems/resentment. That I can't ask. And that even if either one of us asked, we probably wouldn't get a real answer. (I'd say "honest" answer, but I don't mean to cast dispersions... I'm sure they're honest... just not very straightforward--- like their behavior around me... very pleasant, always friendly... but apparently not indicative of actual comfort-level.)
To the "Unfocused" career wise:
I can't really help the timing of when they met me. After I'd been dating their daughter for about six months, my career plans fell apart, and it sucked. Oh well. Since then, I've determined what I need to do (had the plan confirmed by professors, etc, working in my industry (I've been pretty careful to pick non-academic professors... I seem to learn more from the guys who work all day, then have to teach a class explaining their jobs/fields. It's a biased opinion, sure, but a helpful one) (Hell, I've straight A's for the year... that'd never happened before...), and have about a year left on a second degree.
To their minds, I am just drifting aimlessly-- they were "weirded out" (Not sure what this means, and haven't been able to really get an explanation) when I moved up here. It was, for me a simple decision process. AG was planning on moving down to my city, but for six months kept pushing it back by "a few more weeks." Realizing that I had the choice of waiting-waiting-waiting... or coming up here, I took two days to think about it/discuss with AG, made my plans, and was up here a week later. I'm doing the work I need to do, and getting to spend time with AG that doesn't require an (expensive) airplane trip. They saw this as pretty much the oddest thing I could have done, and irresponsible, etc. (I did my budget, calculated what I needed as part of my plans. It all worked out.)
Awesome Girlfriend has also voiced their concerns sometimes that I seem calculating to convince her to neglect them. When I moved up here, she was given a speech "Don't let his personality convince you to spend time with him and neglect your family" (When I think about all of their problems, it seems to imply that AG is interested, in their mind, in a stilted/uncouth personality... but when I pointed that out, she furrowed her brow and said "yeaaahhh, but that's different."-- the only explaination I can come up with is that they think I'm a stilted personality... but a fast talker who always has an answer for everything. (The second part's true. I was taught that growing up; I know when to shelve it for not-family-closefriends, but it's hard to hide when relaxing.)
When I'm in their home, I've been told "be yourself".
... that didn't work.
Now, to avoid more problems, I try to adapt to their ... lifestyle? to their manner-of-cohabitating.
This, apparently, has the effect of my looking as though I'm constantly calculating and stiff. If it were up to me, I'd treat them (as I did when we first met) as family/close-friend's-family. (That apparently weirds them out. (A quick anecdote, my dad's name, for years, has been "dad". To everyone not at his office. (divorced family, friend, whoever) He likes writing postcards, and whoever taught him English taught him that postcards are signed "Very truly yours" or "love" ... sending one to Awesome Girlfriend's house "Love Dad" required a bit of explanation to her parents, apparently.)) So yeah. I understand there's culture shock. I'm tryin' to learn quickly here.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
How can I "fit in" more?
My initial impulse is to call them, and ask... or even better, make an appointment to go up there at a time where they can voice their concerns about me to me and I will try to answer as best I can.
When I mention this, AG looks kind of horrified, and try's to explain that my idea'd make things far worse... when she can't really explain why, she just tells me "They probably wouldn't let the conversation happen anyway"
At this point, all I'm trying to do is assuage their he's-not-focused fears, and he's-super-calculating fears (which strike me as kind of silly-- the only time I'm calculating is when I, because of the situation that's in place, can't be honest... I'd always prefer to be upfront, blunt and honest), and create an atmosphere where we can all be together when it's important. Two holiday seasons have passed where AG and I have been on the phone wishing each other the greetings of the seasons, and that's quite enough. I'm not going to put her in a position to choose me-or-her-family... one, it's a bastard thing to do... two, I'll lose. (as it proper. I love her dearly, as she loves me... but I understand that family comes first.) She's made it clear (and I'd never get in the way. Seriously. Really am trying to be accommodating) that being with her family then is important to her. So I'm trying to find a way to not create trouble, but be able to share important moments with her.
Before I get started, I'd like to point out that I'm not trying to change my way-of-life, or become something I'm not... just try to more flexible and present m'self better.
Here's the basic problem:
My long-term girlfriend is living at home due to lingering medical/depression issues which she's coming out of, but at that point where she's unsure of herself. I'm doing my best to be supportive and not push too much.
We've had a long-distance relationship for a while, so we saw each other for a year or so of one-week-at-her-home, one-week-at-mine.
Recently, I moved up here, as my schedule allowed me to do my work online, and tensions have come to a bit more of a head between her family and I.
I admit, I don't understand a lot of the "rules" of the family.
Finally, after ... what I'd imagine is almost a year of tiptoing around the subject, she had them sit down, and during the course of discussion, her two-years-younger, senior/college sister pointed out that she just trys to avoid me as she doesn't like me, and the parents can't understand our relationship.
--------------------
Short background
To make a long story short, I spent most of college preparing to take a military commission, that fell apart after I graduated, I spent six months overseas learning a language (Awesome Girlfriend joined be for about two-- we got back just as the economy imploded), then since I've come back, I've been getting a second degree while looking for jobs. (it's been... rough. Not a unique situation, I'm sure, but probably reinforces their "what's he doing with his life?" nagging questions) I'm in a lucky position (due to both assistance from family, and my own good planning from years of saving) where I don't have to find one right-away, and so am quite comfortable doing what I need to do for the long term (the second degree (first one was a polisci when, for the military all I needed was "a degree". This one's for my field-of-work interest). Over this summer, I realized I could take a full load of classes online, so figured "Well, if I can pursue my job/school from anywhere... may as well be closer to Awesome Girlfriend." So I moved up to Chicago from Texas, and have been enjoying the city, and getting my schoolwork done.
--------------------------------
Family Concerns (... as passed from Awesome Girlfriend. I've never really gotten a straight answer when I've asked...):
I'm uncouth/don't fit in/stilted personality.
I'm "unfocused" (I don't know exactly what I want to do for a career, and don't seem to be going about it in the "right way")
"Why do you like him?"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
My Answers/Mitigating Factors:
Uncouth/Don't fit in: Honestly, our upbringings were very different. Example from my father, in conversation: "So, with the new medication that Awesome Girlfriend is taking, how's her sex drive been affected?" Me: "Actually, ::explanation here::" (Awesome Girlfriend's pointed out many times that this is apparently an awkward subject for most people. My dad and I don't really have a concept of awkward... it's kind of nice that way, though I've accepted that she does, and tried to learn what causes it.)
The countervailing example: (in casual conversation) AG's Mother, poking fun at AG snoring on a plane: "Yeah, you were waking everyone up..." Me: "Just twack her with a pillow. That usually stops it." (Twenty minutes of frowning later) "You know, you shouldn't ever imply that you've slept near my daughter... It's not right."
To my mind this doesn't make sense. When she comes down to visit me ("half the time", which's turned into a day or two/week), we obviously sleep together. Or, I could've been talking about also sleeping next to her on a plane. Or, we've napped in their home together on a couch. Or, we lived in Berlin for six months together, they've seen photos of the apartment, it was obviously one bedroom....
I'm not stupid, so obviously I wouldn't discuss sex. ... except they make jokes about it (not between the two of us, but random-off-color-jokes, etc). Her mother's told her "Between the two of your medical conditions, you guys have a chance for normal kids!", etc.
(So, to my mind, it's obviously not COMPLETELY taboo... but I stay away anyway.)
There are more subjects (I'm racking my brain for an example) of things that are apparently just ... "not polite".
I'm doing my best to keep a running tally, but sometimes, they seem to come out of left field.
Ah-- when I stand from a table, I pick my chair up. This is apparently very... odd, to their mind. In my family, I was chastised if I didn't-- by dragging it, you put unequal tension on the legs, you can damage them, etc.
All in all, not big things, but apparently they're offended/put-off that I'm not more adaptable when I'm under their roof.
(For a year and a half, they encouraged me, when AG stayed at her home, and I stayed over, to help her get ready for bed, brush teeth, etc. As I moved up here, AG's parents told her this made them/sister very uncomfortable. ... I'm not sure where the disconnect was-- there was no sex, nothing tawdry... just two people being silly and chit-chatting while performing evening ablutions... it went from (to me:) "thank you for doing that" to (to AG:) "he is not going to do that in our house.")
I've been told, by Awesome Girlfriend, in no uncertain terms, that her asking about "where the lines are" would create family problems/resentment. That I can't ask. And that even if either one of us asked, we probably wouldn't get a real answer. (I'd say "honest" answer, but I don't mean to cast dispersions... I'm sure they're honest... just not very straightforward--- like their behavior around me... very pleasant, always friendly... but apparently not indicative of actual comfort-level.)
To the "Unfocused" career wise:
I can't really help the timing of when they met me. After I'd been dating their daughter for about six months, my career plans fell apart, and it sucked. Oh well. Since then, I've determined what I need to do (had the plan confirmed by professors, etc, working in my industry (I've been pretty careful to pick non-academic professors... I seem to learn more from the guys who work all day, then have to teach a class explaining their jobs/fields. It's a biased opinion, sure, but a helpful one) (Hell, I've straight A's for the year... that'd never happened before...), and have about a year left on a second degree.
To their minds, I am just drifting aimlessly-- they were "weirded out" (Not sure what this means, and haven't been able to really get an explanation) when I moved up here. It was, for me a simple decision process. AG was planning on moving down to my city, but for six months kept pushing it back by "a few more weeks." Realizing that I had the choice of waiting-waiting-waiting... or coming up here, I took two days to think about it/discuss with AG, made my plans, and was up here a week later. I'm doing the work I need to do, and getting to spend time with AG that doesn't require an (expensive) airplane trip. They saw this as pretty much the oddest thing I could have done, and irresponsible, etc. (I did my budget, calculated what I needed as part of my plans. It all worked out.)
Awesome Girlfriend has also voiced their concerns sometimes that I seem calculating to convince her to neglect them. When I moved up here, she was given a speech "Don't let his personality convince you to spend time with him and neglect your family" (When I think about all of their problems, it seems to imply that AG is interested, in their mind, in a stilted/uncouth personality... but when I pointed that out, she furrowed her brow and said "yeaaahhh, but that's different."-- the only explaination I can come up with is that they think I'm a stilted personality... but a fast talker who always has an answer for everything. (The second part's true. I was taught that growing up; I know when to shelve it for not-family-closefriends, but it's hard to hide when relaxing.)
When I'm in their home, I've been told "be yourself".
... that didn't work.
Now, to avoid more problems, I try to adapt to their ... lifestyle? to their manner-of-cohabitating.
This, apparently, has the effect of my looking as though I'm constantly calculating and stiff. If it were up to me, I'd treat them (as I did when we first met) as family/close-friend's-family. (That apparently weirds them out. (A quick anecdote, my dad's name, for years, has been "dad". To everyone not at his office. (divorced family, friend, whoever) He likes writing postcards, and whoever taught him English taught him that postcards are signed "Very truly yours" or "love" ... sending one to Awesome Girlfriend's house "Love Dad" required a bit of explanation to her parents, apparently.)) So yeah. I understand there's culture shock. I'm tryin' to learn quickly here.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
How can I "fit in" more?
My initial impulse is to call them, and ask... or even better, make an appointment to go up there at a time where they can voice their concerns about me to me and I will try to answer as best I can.
When I mention this, AG looks kind of horrified, and try's to explain that my idea'd make things far worse... when she can't really explain why, she just tells me "They probably wouldn't let the conversation happen anyway"
At this point, all I'm trying to do is assuage their he's-not-focused fears, and he's-super-calculating fears (which strike me as kind of silly-- the only time I'm calculating is when I, because of the situation that's in place, can't be honest... I'd always prefer to be upfront, blunt and honest), and create an atmosphere where we can all be together when it's important. Two holiday seasons have passed where AG and I have been on the phone wishing each other the greetings of the seasons, and that's quite enough. I'm not going to put her in a position to choose me-or-her-family... one, it's a bastard thing to do... two, I'll lose. (as it proper. I love her dearly, as she loves me... but I understand that family comes first.) She's made it clear (and I'd never get in the way. Seriously. Really am trying to be accommodating) that being with her family then is important to her. So I'm trying to find a way to not create trouble, but be able to share important moments with her.
They don't like you, and she doesn't want to help. If you're really serious about her, sit down like a grownup and have a straightforward conversation with the family. "I feel like we got off on the wrong foot at some point in communicating, and I'm sure it's my fault because my life was in such a transition for so much of the time you've known me, and I'm from a pretty different background. -- I guess you can tell because of my dad's crazy letters! Anyway, I was thinking maybe we could kind of reset our way of interacting, because I'm crazy about your daughter and seriously want to make her happy, and I think making sure that you are all not uncomfortable with me might be one of the best ways to make sure she's happy."
Your awesome girlfriend will probably balk at that, since she doesn't want you to take it up with them directly, but her methodology is clearly not working.
FWIW, I'd DTMFA already. This is way too much work and complexity and drama.
posted by anildash at 3:41 PM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Your awesome girlfriend will probably balk at that, since she doesn't want you to take it up with them directly, but her methodology is clearly not working.
FWIW, I'd DTMFA already. This is way too much work and complexity and drama.
posted by anildash at 3:41 PM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]
Welcome to being married!
I hate to tell you this, but this is (to my reading) fairly common cross family dynamics in action.
All you can do is be patient and try to be sensitive...which it sounds like you are being.
posted by iamabot at 3:44 PM on July 22, 2009
I hate to tell you this, but this is (to my reading) fairly common cross family dynamics in action.
All you can do is be patient and try to be sensitive...which it sounds like you are being.
posted by iamabot at 3:44 PM on July 22, 2009
whoever taught him English
My first thought is that your AG's family is just a bunch of judgmental assholes, but could this be primarily a culture clash? Have your parents met theirs? Is your family's behavior the norm in wherever you're from?
How does your AG respond to their criticisms of you? Is she really bothered by them, or can she just brush them off? If she is not upset by them, neither should you be. Just shrug and be who you are. Perhaps be a little extra gentlemanly. But sometimes there's nothing you can do when people don't like you.
posted by desjardins at 3:44 PM on July 22, 2009
My first thought is that your AG's family is just a bunch of judgmental assholes, but could this be primarily a culture clash? Have your parents met theirs? Is your family's behavior the norm in wherever you're from?
How does your AG respond to their criticisms of you? Is she really bothered by them, or can she just brush them off? If she is not upset by them, neither should you be. Just shrug and be who you are. Perhaps be a little extra gentlemanly. But sometimes there's nothing you can do when people don't like you.
posted by desjardins at 3:44 PM on July 22, 2009
AG does not seem as awesome to me, or most observers, as she does to you.
Consider this: As stated by you, she's dealing with depression. Internally she is in an an emotional environment that is toxic to you as well as toxic to the growth of your relationship.
Add to that: Her family is not welcoming to you. They are making an aggressive/defensive stances directly to your presence. This means that they are not working to include you in their daughter's treatment, and probably making specific efforts to sabotage your relationship. Either they consider you to be a root cause of their daughter's difficulty - for whatever reason - or they consider you to be an unwelcome distraction to her treatment.
Either way: From what you are describing, I would extrapolate that unless something drastically changes in your relationship with her parents, the more time you spend near them, the more difficult a time your relationship with them - and eventually AG - will be.
The reality: If your AG isn't begging you to stick around for the abuse, you should go back to school. Staying there could wind up with you being scapegoated by her family for the dysfunctionality of the situation. Stay in contact - but keep it focused on her treatment. If she loves you, she'll focus on her treatment and be ready to come back to you. In addition, if her family sees you making her well-being your priority and they have both a moment of self-reflection and hopefully a better chance to accept you in the future. This is that whole if-you-love-her-set-her-free thing. Regardless, distancing yourself removes you from a pretty toxic environment - meaning that you'll have less of a chance of being pulled into the depressive mess.
posted by Nanukthedog at 4:12 PM on July 22, 2009
Consider this: As stated by you, she's dealing with depression. Internally she is in an an emotional environment that is toxic to you as well as toxic to the growth of your relationship.
Add to that: Her family is not welcoming to you. They are making an aggressive/defensive stances directly to your presence. This means that they are not working to include you in their daughter's treatment, and probably making specific efforts to sabotage your relationship. Either they consider you to be a root cause of their daughter's difficulty - for whatever reason - or they consider you to be an unwelcome distraction to her treatment.
Either way: From what you are describing, I would extrapolate that unless something drastically changes in your relationship with her parents, the more time you spend near them, the more difficult a time your relationship with them - and eventually AG - will be.
The reality: If your AG isn't begging you to stick around for the abuse, you should go back to school. Staying there could wind up with you being scapegoated by her family for the dysfunctionality of the situation. Stay in contact - but keep it focused on her treatment. If she loves you, she'll focus on her treatment and be ready to come back to you. In addition, if her family sees you making her well-being your priority and they have both a moment of self-reflection and hopefully a better chance to accept you in the future. This is that whole if-you-love-her-set-her-free thing. Regardless, distancing yourself removes you from a pretty toxic environment - meaning that you'll have less of a chance of being pulled into the depressive mess.
posted by Nanukthedog at 4:12 PM on July 22, 2009
Her family don't like you and, instead of getting the fuck out of the way of other people's adult relationships, like normal grownups do, they're being dicks about it. Seriously, the way you push your chair back from the table bothers them? Who even notices that kind of shit? People who're looking for reasons not to like you, that's who. If your girlfriend is so amazing that you're willing to put up with the rest of her family being dicks and if she's willing to be in a relationship where her family are going to be dicks to her boyfriend then fight for it, together. Talk to her family about their reasons, talk to them about your relationship and your plans, together. If they can't or won't change, decide if this girl is amazing enough to put up with this shit. How often are you going to see her family in the future anyway?
posted by IanMorr at 4:12 PM on July 22, 2009 [6 favorites]
posted by IanMorr at 4:12 PM on July 22, 2009 [6 favorites]
Yes, they don't like you, and it will be impossible to get a concrete reason "why." They seem to have taken a visceral dislike to you that may simply be the typical "no one is good enough for my daughter" (whether they know it or not). Or it may be cultural snobbishness on their part, insecurity, etc. Who knows. Any attempt to find a root cause or try to change yourself to fit in better with them is likely to be stressful for both parties.
Be yourself, (but seconding the "be a little extra gentlemanly"), love and treat your girlfriend well, and if she obviously loves you back eventually they will warm to you (simply by growing more used to you). If this never happens (which honestly sounds a bit likely here), then the problem has nothing to do with you and has to do with AG's parents and AG's relationship to them. If AG continues to live, as an adult, with her parents, they may continue to infantilize her, be overly concerned with her life and choices. It's just sort of natural for some parents.
If I were constantly concerned that the minutest behaviors might make my girlfriend's parents uncomfortable (like picking up my chair: WTF?), then I'd probably act pretty "stilted," too. Don't worry about it. I honestly don't think there's much to be gained from sitting them down and trying to hash all this out--they don't sound like that kind of people. Be yourself, be sensitive to AG's needs to honor her family, but don't you worry what they think of you. And if AG continuously brings up her parent's disapproval of you as something you need to address... well, AskMe has an acronym for that...
posted by EL-O-ESS at 4:31 PM on July 22, 2009
Be yourself, (but seconding the "be a little extra gentlemanly"), love and treat your girlfriend well, and if she obviously loves you back eventually they will warm to you (simply by growing more used to you). If this never happens (which honestly sounds a bit likely here), then the problem has nothing to do with you and has to do with AG's parents and AG's relationship to them. If AG continues to live, as an adult, with her parents, they may continue to infantilize her, be overly concerned with her life and choices. It's just sort of natural for some parents.
If I were constantly concerned that the minutest behaviors might make my girlfriend's parents uncomfortable (like picking up my chair: WTF?), then I'd probably act pretty "stilted," too. Don't worry about it. I honestly don't think there's much to be gained from sitting them down and trying to hash all this out--they don't sound like that kind of people. Be yourself, be sensitive to AG's needs to honor her family, but don't you worry what they think of you. And if AG continuously brings up her parent's disapproval of you as something you need to address... well, AskMe has an acronym for that...
posted by EL-O-ESS at 4:31 PM on July 22, 2009
Based on what you've written, it doesn't seem likely that you'll be able to "fit in" with this family. They just flat out don't like you and appear willing to go to extreme measures to denigrate you to their daughter, who, incidentally, sounds awfully submissive for a grown woman in a relationship. There are some weird family dynamics going on there. That, coupled with her depression, doesn't seem to be something you can "fix" by changing your behavior. Sorry. I think you should cut your losses and move on.
posted by LuckySeven~ at 4:43 PM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
posted by LuckySeven~ at 4:43 PM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
Nanukthedog wrote... "Add to that: Her family is not welcoming to you. They are making an aggressive/defensive stances directly to your presence. This means that they are not working to include you in their daughter's treatment, and probably making specific efforts to sabotage your relationship. Either they consider you to be a root cause of their daughter's difficulty - for whatever reason - or they consider you to be an unwelcome distraction to her treatment."
And then refer to LuckySeven, just above.
Look. You seem pretty honorable towards your AG, but is it possible her depression comes from not feeling a sense of control over her own life? And I throw out there that her lack of control predates your relationship with her by quite a few years....In other words, I think her family is totally controlling and probably the cause of her Depression, not you, but as per LuckySeven - YOU ARE NOT THE ONE WHO CAN FIX.
You seem like quite the self-starter and very adventurous, actually. I bet these are qualities your AG is attracted to in you.
Her family sounds very conservative, BTW. Obvs, they want her to date/marry same. You are not it. That leaves few options.
Only you know the likely outcomes here. But I bet you could go YEARS trying to break her "out" of this family dynamic, and eventually the effort could ruin your relationship and hurt you both.
Commenter above is correct. GO BACK TO SCHOOL IN YOUR CITY. If AG is serious about her recovery and you, she'll follow you soon enough:))
posted by jbenben at 5:28 PM on July 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
And then refer to LuckySeven, just above.
Look. You seem pretty honorable towards your AG, but is it possible her depression comes from not feeling a sense of control over her own life? And I throw out there that her lack of control predates your relationship with her by quite a few years....In other words, I think her family is totally controlling and probably the cause of her Depression, not you, but as per LuckySeven - YOU ARE NOT THE ONE WHO CAN FIX.
You seem like quite the self-starter and very adventurous, actually. I bet these are qualities your AG is attracted to in you.
Her family sounds very conservative, BTW. Obvs, they want her to date/marry same. You are not it. That leaves few options.
Only you know the likely outcomes here. But I bet you could go YEARS trying to break her "out" of this family dynamic, and eventually the effort could ruin your relationship and hurt you both.
Commenter above is correct. GO BACK TO SCHOOL IN YOUR CITY. If AG is serious about her recovery and you, she'll follow you soon enough:))
posted by jbenben at 5:28 PM on July 22, 2009 [3 favorites]
except for a general prudishness on their part (relative to your and AG's norms), I can't point to anything in your post that is a reasonable explanation for the tension between you and her family. Picking up vs. dragging a chair? Really? Who gets upset about that? Assuming that there's not some larger issue that you're ignoring (or perhaps not aware of), it sounds like they simply decided that you are an outsider, and you'll never measure up to their standards. They are making up answers for AG to tell her why they dislike you, when there really isn't an answer. Some people just don't get along. When people don't get along, they have three options: stay away from one another (not possible since you moved to their home town), be polite and casual (which would be nice, sure), and be jerks (which they have apparently perfected).
Is there maybe a racial or cultural difference that could cause this? That would suck, because it's not something you can change, but at least you can recognize that her family is irrational and wrong-headed and you can be the bigger person. But don't expect them to ever change. This may just be the price of hanging with AG, until you can convince her to move out of her parents' house!
posted by Chris4d at 5:35 PM on July 22, 2009
Is there maybe a racial or cultural difference that could cause this? That would suck, because it's not something you can change, but at least you can recognize that her family is irrational and wrong-headed and you can be the bigger person. But don't expect them to ever change. This may just be the price of hanging with AG, until you can convince her to move out of her parents' house!
posted by Chris4d at 5:35 PM on July 22, 2009
It was, for me a simple decision process. AG was planning on moving down to my city, but for six months kept pushing it back by "a few more weeks." Realizing that I had the choice of waiting-waiting-waiting... or coming up here, I took two days to think about it/discuss with AG, made my plans, and was up here a week later. I'm doing the work I need to do, and getting to spend time with AG that doesn't require an (expensive) airplane trip.
If AG is so damn awesome and her family is so damn crazy and nitpicky, why did she even have to stall on this? What was her reasoning? Is she into your relationship the same way you are, or is she having second thoughts?
Actually, why is she awesome in the first place? I don't get any sense of her at all in your post, other than "she's depressed" and "her family despises me for a multitude of nebulous, weird reasons that she keeps telling me not to investigate too closely."
She seems rather more committed to maintaining whatever odd dynamic has developed between her, her illness, and her family than she is to getting out and developing a full-time, serious relationship with you. I... think maybe you're more of the kind of guy who wants to commit, hardcore, and do anything it takes to make it work.
"Oh my God, your bizarre family dynamic is bizarre and you're really into propping it up and defending it and not into questioning why it's bizarre and broken" killed my first marriage, FWIW, so I'm biased, but this sounds like bad news.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 5:45 PM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
If AG is so damn awesome and her family is so damn crazy and nitpicky, why did she even have to stall on this? What was her reasoning? Is she into your relationship the same way you are, or is she having second thoughts?
Actually, why is she awesome in the first place? I don't get any sense of her at all in your post, other than "she's depressed" and "her family despises me for a multitude of nebulous, weird reasons that she keeps telling me not to investigate too closely."
She seems rather more committed to maintaining whatever odd dynamic has developed between her, her illness, and her family than she is to getting out and developing a full-time, serious relationship with you. I... think maybe you're more of the kind of guy who wants to commit, hardcore, and do anything it takes to make it work.
"Oh my God, your bizarre family dynamic is bizarre and you're really into propping it up and defending it and not into questioning why it's bizarre and broken" killed my first marriage, FWIW, so I'm biased, but this sounds like bad news.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 5:45 PM on July 22, 2009 [2 favorites]
follow-up from the OP
To answer some of the questions:posted by jessamyn at 5:49 PM on July 22, 2009
Yeah, it is a culture clash. I'm trying to be respectful of their familial culture when I have to/get to be there. (Yeah, I'd prefer not to be, but it really hurts Awesome Girlfriend to see the constant discord-- makes her feel like "Us or Them"... and I like her parents. They're fun to chat with... when it doesn't cause problems that're pointed out three weeks later)
At this point in my parent's relationship, they'd been married for a year and a half, and I'd been born.
At this point in her parent's... as far as I can tell, they were dating, married several years later... and they see our relationship as a short-term thing. (She saw her high school/college boyfriend for... what, eight years? So this is still "new" to them.)
Our parent's've met... though it was when we'd been dating for about three, four weeks. We had a breakfast together at my mother's home... the fathers got on well, my mother told a story of walking in on my brother and a girlfriend. It's a funny story... but apparently the humor was lost in AG's mother's horror.
Originally, I thought their problems with me stemmed from worry over her; she went to college, came back broken... not only that, broken and attached to me. I figured in their mind, I'm a vulture who, if she were "okay", she wouldn't be interested in. ... honestly, I was pretty damned depressed when I met AG, and we've helped each other through a lot. That being said-- I don't particularly want to air my emotional history with them... especially as it'd probably seem a-bit-too-convenient.
We must be in the family room or kitchen, etc unless we have a "good" reason to not be... otherwise Awesome Girlfriend is afraid the parent's'll think we're having sex... though that's rarely the case. (I figured she was being overcautious... but apparently they've said things to her agreeing with her read of the situation... "Don't you like being around us? I mean, if you're not doing anything else in particular, what else would you be doing?")
My solution... we can tell them we won't have sex in their home. Hell, I'll put it in writing if that'd give them peace of mind. When I've brought this up, the answer is
"If you mention it, then they'll know that it's happened."
"... they assume that already."
"But talking about sex will get them very very angry at you."
The important question: it tears Awesome Girlfriend up. She's very close to her family, and very close to me. The tension rips her up, and more than that-- she notices when I don't volunteer to spend time up there.
"Why don't you think spending time at my home with my family is spending time with me?"
"... because you're not you. You're cautious, withdrawn, and stressed-to-the-point-of-migrane."
"Because you're not comfortable there... just be yourself!"
"We tried that... it created problems."
She acknowledges that her family has communication problems, and wants to work on them while she can -- while also realizing that she won't change her parent's way of living life.
-----------
I realize they don't like me. But as it's been explained to her, it's a reason of bad presentation. "They like you... they just don't see why I like you, they see you as unfocused, and so don't like the thought of you and I together for a while".
So I'll do what I can. I accept that I grew up in a much blunter and less concerned-with-appearance family.
I'm trying to find a way to approach the family without offending them or creating so many problems with the presentation that they don't listen to the content.
AG's family sees their position as "What Normal People Do" (Which, not really having a definition of normal, is hard to argue)
Is there a guide to explain what people generally find offensive/not? None of it makes logical sense, and so trying to figure out guidelines is... confusing. My dad's advice "Start the conversation by telling them not to think of it as their daughter. Then they can have discussions about things like sex and your relationship without letting the emotional handicap get in the way." ... something tells me that wouldn't really work.
Oh geez.
AG's family sees their position as "What Normal People Do" (Which, not really having a definition of normal, is hard to argue)
Is there a guide to explain what people generally find offensive/not? None of it makes logical sense, and so trying to figure out guidelines is... confusing. My dad's advice "Start the conversation by telling them not to think of it as their daughter. Then they can have discussions about things like sex and your relationship without letting the emotional handicap get in the way." ... something tells me that wouldn't really work.
I'm not sure why you would be discussing sex with her parents. EVER.
These people are warped. Your AG needs to figure out what side of the fence she is on.
I know from experience this will take YEARS of self-search. Nothing you can help with, I'm afraid.
Thanks so much for posting additional info. Really.
The problem is your AG grew up in one social paradigm, and you grew up in another. You are correct - the parents are all about appearances. But they are also about making sure their offspring (your AG) stays within their paradigm. If she didn't - how would they explain that to their social circle??
Quick collection of stories, tangentially related.
YES. I've had years of being fairly normal, yet feeling outside the NORM. I moved 15 miles away from my family, but it was to the BIG CITY. Family was aghast, I was judged. I thought they were weird for not wanting to access the wonderful diversity that was literally outside their door! Since then, I've moved several times, including to foreign countries. Fam and I are basically estranged because we're just not "the same." Happens.
Cut to the present. I work with the public 2 days per week in a neighborhood just outside my current residence filled with families just like your AG's. Lovely place. The main guy I deal with there is super cool and very accepted, he is from a neighboring town. Then an issue came up and I found out he is PROFOUNDLY homophobic. I live in a predominately gay neighborhood, although I am straight and married. (to a muslim, I might add. Mr. Jbenben isn't particularly religious and appreciates our neighbors as human beings. In fact, although Mr. Jbenben was never exposed to homosexuals in his own country, he is totally gay-friendly.) Right. Back to the colleague...that fucker! I want to punch him in the face lately. He now works in our neck of the woods, his view point is vociferously maintained, and he inappropriately flirts with every straight female he can find when in our part of town. I've actually thought about posting to metafilter about this because I now hate my former friend/colleague so much.
My point is that maybe you are a "social traverser" (my own term) someone who successfully maintains a foot in several camps.... except when it comes to intimacy with someone (AG's parents) who are entrenched in a particular social camp. You look OK on the surface, but eventually, they know you aren't really like them.
Ah. I could go on. My first MIL hated but tolerated me because she was of a conservative bent. Her disapproval and wanting to keep her son close sorta contributed to the downfall of my first marriage, actually. Mr. Jbenben and I would say she did us a favor. But her son has still not remarried, and I think I know why. He's a great guy, BTW.
Make what you will of all that. But I suggest this won't be the last time you deal with these types of social issues until you figure out where you stand and start living by that. Eventually, I accepted that I was open, some people aren't, and I do better in groups and with individuals that can roll with people's differences and not feel threatened by them. So much easier.
(I am not making comments about your AG specifically, just giving you a rounded list of examples of individuals who fall all over the spectrum and how they interacted with me over the years. You are not me!)
posted by jbenben at 6:28 PM on July 22, 2009
AG's family sees their position as "What Normal People Do" (Which, not really having a definition of normal, is hard to argue)
Is there a guide to explain what people generally find offensive/not? None of it makes logical sense, and so trying to figure out guidelines is... confusing. My dad's advice "Start the conversation by telling them not to think of it as their daughter. Then they can have discussions about things like sex and your relationship without letting the emotional handicap get in the way." ... something tells me that wouldn't really work.
I'm not sure why you would be discussing sex with her parents. EVER.
These people are warped. Your AG needs to figure out what side of the fence she is on.
I know from experience this will take YEARS of self-search. Nothing you can help with, I'm afraid.
Thanks so much for posting additional info. Really.
The problem is your AG grew up in one social paradigm, and you grew up in another. You are correct - the parents are all about appearances. But they are also about making sure their offspring (your AG) stays within their paradigm. If she didn't - how would they explain that to their social circle??
Quick collection of stories, tangentially related.
YES. I've had years of being fairly normal, yet feeling outside the NORM. I moved 15 miles away from my family, but it was to the BIG CITY. Family was aghast, I was judged. I thought they were weird for not wanting to access the wonderful diversity that was literally outside their door! Since then, I've moved several times, including to foreign countries. Fam and I are basically estranged because we're just not "the same." Happens.
Cut to the present. I work with the public 2 days per week in a neighborhood just outside my current residence filled with families just like your AG's. Lovely place. The main guy I deal with there is super cool and very accepted, he is from a neighboring town. Then an issue came up and I found out he is PROFOUNDLY homophobic. I live in a predominately gay neighborhood, although I am straight and married. (to a muslim, I might add. Mr. Jbenben isn't particularly religious and appreciates our neighbors as human beings. In fact, although Mr. Jbenben was never exposed to homosexuals in his own country, he is totally gay-friendly.) Right. Back to the colleague...that fucker! I want to punch him in the face lately. He now works in our neck of the woods, his view point is vociferously maintained, and he inappropriately flirts with every straight female he can find when in our part of town. I've actually thought about posting to metafilter about this because I now hate my former friend/colleague so much.
My point is that maybe you are a "social traverser" (my own term) someone who successfully maintains a foot in several camps.... except when it comes to intimacy with someone (AG's parents) who are entrenched in a particular social camp. You look OK on the surface, but eventually, they know you aren't really like them.
Ah. I could go on. My first MIL hated but tolerated me because she was of a conservative bent. Her disapproval and wanting to keep her son close sorta contributed to the downfall of my first marriage, actually. Mr. Jbenben and I would say she did us a favor. But her son has still not remarried, and I think I know why. He's a great guy, BTW.
Make what you will of all that. But I suggest this won't be the last time you deal with these types of social issues until you figure out where you stand and start living by that. Eventually, I accepted that I was open, some people aren't, and I do better in groups and with individuals that can roll with people's differences and not feel threatened by them. So much easier.
(I am not making comments about your AG specifically, just giving you a rounded list of examples of individuals who fall all over the spectrum and how they interacted with me over the years. You are not me!)
posted by jbenben at 6:28 PM on July 22, 2009
"Because you're not comfortable there... just be yourself!"
"We tried that... it created problems."
It sounds like her family is a little loony and protective and won't every really warm to you, especially if you've got an answer for everything.
Sit'em down and just say "Look, I love you daughter and I'm not looking to harm her. I just want to enjoy her company and enjoy yours. Hopefully that'll happen in time, but if not, you're just going to have to accept me as I am, quirks and all."
Then you have to live that. You say you don't want to change, but your entire post reeks of someone trying to find some angle, some method of getting them to like you. I'm betting that's making them wary and suspicious. Just say fuck it, be yourself and let them think what they want.
Long term though, things may not work out if her family is so against you. Good luck though!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:34 PM on July 22, 2009
"We tried that... it created problems."
It sounds like her family is a little loony and protective and won't every really warm to you, especially if you've got an answer for everything.
Sit'em down and just say "Look, I love you daughter and I'm not looking to harm her. I just want to enjoy her company and enjoy yours. Hopefully that'll happen in time, but if not, you're just going to have to accept me as I am, quirks and all."
Then you have to live that. You say you don't want to change, but your entire post reeks of someone trying to find some angle, some method of getting them to like you. I'm betting that's making them wary and suspicious. Just say fuck it, be yourself and let them think what they want.
Long term though, things may not work out if her family is so against you. Good luck though!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:34 PM on July 22, 2009
Your girlfriend doesn't sound so awesome to me. Relaying the critical things her parents say back to you is really manipulative and hurtful. Once she grows up and stops doing this, I think things will improve.
posted by Flying Squirrel at 6:43 PM on July 22, 2009
posted by Flying Squirrel at 6:43 PM on July 22, 2009
For a year and a half, they encouraged me, when AG stayed at her home, and I stayed over, to help her get ready for bed, brush teeth, etc.
This sounds bizarre to me. Her parents encouraged you to help her with brushing her teeth and getting ready for bed? Is this something the parents help with if you are not there?
If there is a medical issue that causes AG to have trouble with brushing her own teeth and dressing for bed it might be good for you to elaborate on that, it will change the advice you are getting.
posted by yohko at 7:01 PM on July 22, 2009
This sounds bizarre to me. Her parents encouraged you to help her with brushing her teeth and getting ready for bed? Is this something the parents help with if you are not there?
If there is a medical issue that causes AG to have trouble with brushing her own teeth and dressing for bed it might be good for you to elaborate on that, it will change the advice you are getting.
posted by yohko at 7:01 PM on July 22, 2009
Apologies for length. Awesome Girlfriend really needs a stable home life to help her healand her parents are providing it. It doesn't sound like she can handle moving in with you and heal, and she knows this. Hell, she may have even communicated this to you, but I'm not sure you'd notice. You decided (on your own?) to move in with her family. Are you paying rent? I bet that is a major source of the conflict, but there seems to be a lot more going on here.
It is a strange decision to make to get a second BA. It is nearly always a waste of time and money. A polisci degree plus military training enhances your chances of securing a job in this economy. If you wanted a technical degree, why not a two-year technical program?
Unless you want to work on an offshore oil rig, no industry is going to welcome you with open arms in this economy, regardless of degree. So I can see the family's worries about your plans for the future. Furthermore, whatever happened with the military commission, I'm sure that came as a shock to your SO's family. Instead of moving forward into a career, you've moved in a sense backwards. Frankly returning to school seems like a way to avoid dealing with "real life" superiors in a "real life" job.
It sounds like I come from a background very different from your SO's. Sex talk just did not happen. Rules about SO in the house sound like your SO's family. That attitude is not uncommon. It was the norm in the multicultural suburbs I grew up in. It's more common than you think. II know in parts of northern Europe attitudes are more lax. I don't know your cultural background, but you sound familiar enough with the US that you should know from experience around your friends' families that not every family talks sex like your own.
I would be mortified if my SO brought up raunchy subjects and, god forbid, intimate knowledge about my sleep habits in front of my parents or in front of older people. You can blame it on cultural differences, but it's common sense to always assume that off color talk, especially sexy talk, does not make for polite conversation.
The mom's joking about your future children in no way resembles the subjects you bring up with them or with your dad. Your subjects are not hypotheticals, they are the kind of thing you discuss with your friends. If your dad's a friend, great. Your SO's mom is NOT.
This post reads as if you don't "get" social cues or what's appropriate in a given social context. Are you sure your SO doesn't want you to change your behavior around her family because she isn't comfortable with it either?
Back to the crux of the problem: you are living in their home and have worn out your welcome. You made a decision and moved in with them for the summer, or are at least are spending way more time in their home than they want. Clearly you made that decision without factoring in their lifestyle, and maybe even your girlfriend's wishes/needs.
Look at it from their perspective: daughter has unemployed boyfriend who lost military commission. Instead of getting a job, he goes back for another BA. He moved into our home for the summer and continually misses cues on the customs of my family, causing us all embarrassment.
You are a guest but it sure doesn't sound like you're acting like a gracious one. You have no reason to be living with her family. It is time to go home. Develop awareness of social cues about the desires of others, and accept them even if they conflict with your own. In other words, grow up a little, take on adult responsibility, even a part-time job will do, and I bet their attitude toward you will change.
Your SO doesn't want to intervene and I don't blame her. She needs or wants her family right now. You sound like extra baggage she has to deal with. Don't discount the possibility that your girlfriend wants time apart from you, and these are her feeble attempts to build distance.
posted by vincele at 7:53 PM on July 22, 2009
It is a strange decision to make to get a second BA. It is nearly always a waste of time and money. A polisci degree plus military training enhances your chances of securing a job in this economy. If you wanted a technical degree, why not a two-year technical program?
Unless you want to work on an offshore oil rig, no industry is going to welcome you with open arms in this economy, regardless of degree. So I can see the family's worries about your plans for the future. Furthermore, whatever happened with the military commission, I'm sure that came as a shock to your SO's family. Instead of moving forward into a career, you've moved in a sense backwards. Frankly returning to school seems like a way to avoid dealing with "real life" superiors in a "real life" job.
It sounds like I come from a background very different from your SO's. Sex talk just did not happen. Rules about SO in the house sound like your SO's family. That attitude is not uncommon. It was the norm in the multicultural suburbs I grew up in. It's more common than you think. II know in parts of northern Europe attitudes are more lax. I don't know your cultural background, but you sound familiar enough with the US that you should know from experience around your friends' families that not every family talks sex like your own.
I would be mortified if my SO brought up raunchy subjects and, god forbid, intimate knowledge about my sleep habits in front of my parents or in front of older people. You can blame it on cultural differences, but it's common sense to always assume that off color talk, especially sexy talk, does not make for polite conversation.
The mom's joking about your future children in no way resembles the subjects you bring up with them or with your dad. Your subjects are not hypotheticals, they are the kind of thing you discuss with your friends. If your dad's a friend, great. Your SO's mom is NOT.
This post reads as if you don't "get" social cues or what's appropriate in a given social context. Are you sure your SO doesn't want you to change your behavior around her family because she isn't comfortable with it either?
Back to the crux of the problem: you are living in their home and have worn out your welcome. You made a decision and moved in with them for the summer, or are at least are spending way more time in their home than they want. Clearly you made that decision without factoring in their lifestyle, and maybe even your girlfriend's wishes/needs.
Look at it from their perspective: daughter has unemployed boyfriend who lost military commission. Instead of getting a job, he goes back for another BA. He moved into our home for the summer and continually misses cues on the customs of my family, causing us all embarrassment.
You are a guest but it sure doesn't sound like you're acting like a gracious one. You have no reason to be living with her family. It is time to go home. Develop awareness of social cues about the desires of others, and accept them even if they conflict with your own. In other words, grow up a little, take on adult responsibility, even a part-time job will do, and I bet their attitude toward you will change.
Your SO doesn't want to intervene and I don't blame her. She needs or wants her family right now. You sound like extra baggage she has to deal with. Don't discount the possibility that your girlfriend wants time apart from you, and these are her feeble attempts to build distance.
posted by vincele at 7:53 PM on July 22, 2009
Well if the problem is "they just don't see why awesome girlfriend likes you", why doesn't she tell them? And while that is unlikely to make them fall in love you too, at the very least she'd be standing up for someone she believes in. If she could put a voice to her feelings about you and how you fit into each other's lives, it might help her find a sense of stability for herself, and it might even help her family back off a little.
I've had relationships that my family "didn't get" and a relationship that they loved and I didn't. I actually left the latter for the first, so that only added more misunderstanding and acrimony. My guy wasn't anything like my family either and didn't quite fit in. The relationship didn't last, but it did a lot for me to be able to articulate why I loved him and why we were of value to each other. I was also severely depressed at the time. Taking ownership of my relationship choices at that time helped me quite a bit and continues to do so to this day, years after I last talked to him.
She needs to take some more control and you need to back off a bit with all the psychoanalyzing of her family. I know she doesn't want to be caught in between you and her family, but if she takes more control (rather than withdrawing from responsibility) it could actually do wonders for her, your relationship, and her relationship with her family. She is really the most powerful entity in this triangle.
posted by Danila at 8:01 PM on July 22, 2009
I've had relationships that my family "didn't get" and a relationship that they loved and I didn't. I actually left the latter for the first, so that only added more misunderstanding and acrimony. My guy wasn't anything like my family either and didn't quite fit in. The relationship didn't last, but it did a lot for me to be able to articulate why I loved him and why we were of value to each other. I was also severely depressed at the time. Taking ownership of my relationship choices at that time helped me quite a bit and continues to do so to this day, years after I last talked to him.
She needs to take some more control and you need to back off a bit with all the psychoanalyzing of her family. I know she doesn't want to be caught in between you and her family, but if she takes more control (rather than withdrawing from responsibility) it could actually do wonders for her, your relationship, and her relationship with her family. She is really the most powerful entity in this triangle.
posted by Danila at 8:01 PM on July 22, 2009
In case I was too harsh I wanted to add that you do sound like a really sweet guy, and your willingness to resolve these problems shows just how sincere you are about your SO. Best of luck.
posted by vincele at 8:19 PM on July 22, 2009
posted by vincele at 8:19 PM on July 22, 2009
one more follow-up from the OP
To the medical question-- for a while, she was "spacing out" when doing things like brushing teeth, etc-- an hour'd pass, and she'd just stand there. That's what I imagine the thanks were for (when I'd be up there, chatting with her, but at the same time, makin' sure she got things done)... I'm just confused when this turned into "this makes us uncomfortable". (not a question I expect to answer, just an oddity, to my train of thought).posted by jessamyn at 8:48 PM on July 22, 2009
--------------------------
To vincele,
I'm not living in their home. I'm living on my own, self sufficiently, about thirty, forty minutes away.
The second BA is actually a second BS, and it's there to teach an industry (pretty close to oil rigs actually) that I'd grown up learning "at home" from family, etc, but never actually studied. I've talked with professors and industry workers, and feel that it's the right decision-- especially after they've spent time talking with me and noted
"You know a lot about this subject... but there are some really odd gaping holes in the 'basics'."
"Learned a lot at home."
"Oh... that explains that." Hell, I'm worried about my future. But worrying won't fix it, so I'm doing what I believe I need to-- if it doesn't work, I'll adapt and keep moving forward.
I do miss some social cues-- though according to AG, the family's also pretty good about hiding them, and puts a premium on "making everyone comfortable"... whether the civility is honest or not. (That was the first indication that there was a culture clash... her sister's "hidden" the fact that she dislikes me for years... though the "hidden" wasn't hard to pick up, she just never admitted it when asked.) She's been asking her family for an honest opinion of me for quite a while...it just took several months for them to say anything other than "Oh, of course we like him."
Most of the point of the post was that I'm trying to be able to pick up on social cues, but apparently don't have a great frame of reference-- I don't bring up anything off color... but I admit, when it's fitting into conversation, it usually doesn't cross my mind to censor myself. Between the two of us, we don't hold anything back. I'm learning as I go... and am trying not to make more mistakes. Her reasoning for my not talking to them is that in their mind, talking bluntly/honesty is a sign of social awkwardness. I was raised... quite the opposite- my parents (dad especially), pointed out that if all else fails, the only thing I have is my integrity... so don't lie to people just to make things easier in the short term. ::shrug:: different views on the subject- I don't want to judge them, just interact without creating problems.
---------
To the groups pointing out that I've not said much in defense of Awesome Girlfriend-- you have a point; I didn't really include a lot of details there (and don't want to engage in bubbly rambling), but she and I make each other happy. We're silly at times, and help each other through bad times. We talk about everything under the sun, and comfort each other when things don't go well.
One of the reasons I'm even asking is because I can see the stress this puts on her, and I know the stress this puts on me, so I'm trying to do my part... and I ran out of ideas.
She may be depressed and need stability, but (speaking from experience) it's probably not great for her mental health to live in an environment where she has to constantly be watching out and paying attention to her parents reactions to this, that, and the other.
They don't like you having sex with her. They KNOW you're having sex with her. They don't like this -- ergo, they don't like you. It's a basic, knee-jerk reaction, and it's not going to change. They don't sound like they are paying a whole lot of attention to what's good for her, or what effect this added stress is having on her. Nothing you say is going to change this -- the only thing that might make a difference (and it needs to come from her, not you), is letting them know that they are directly contributing to the stress and turmoil in their daughter's life.
There's really nothing you can do about this, other than be supportive of her and try not to let it get to you too much. It really sucks that they're being so selfish about this (if I were your girlfriend, I'd be livid about the whole thing), but they're not likely to change--- even if you DO sign a document guaranteeing a future job and a celibate lifestyle. Ultimately, any really persuasive argument is going to have to come from her, anyway.
Ask her bluntly whether she wants you to be around -- and if she says yes, bristle up, tough it out, and try not to let it get to you too much. You sound like you're an awesome boyfriend, and if it were me, I'd want to keep you around.
posted by puckish at 8:59 PM on July 22, 2009
They don't like you having sex with her. They KNOW you're having sex with her. They don't like this -- ergo, they don't like you. It's a basic, knee-jerk reaction, and it's not going to change. They don't sound like they are paying a whole lot of attention to what's good for her, or what effect this added stress is having on her. Nothing you say is going to change this -- the only thing that might make a difference (and it needs to come from her, not you), is letting them know that they are directly contributing to the stress and turmoil in their daughter's life.
There's really nothing you can do about this, other than be supportive of her and try not to let it get to you too much. It really sucks that they're being so selfish about this (if I were your girlfriend, I'd be livid about the whole thing), but they're not likely to change--- even if you DO sign a document guaranteeing a future job and a celibate lifestyle. Ultimately, any really persuasive argument is going to have to come from her, anyway.
Ask her bluntly whether she wants you to be around -- and if she says yes, bristle up, tough it out, and try not to let it get to you too much. You sound like you're an awesome boyfriend, and if it were me, I'd want to keep you around.
posted by puckish at 8:59 PM on July 22, 2009
She spaces out doing stuff how, exactly? Is it possible there's another underlying condition contributing to her existing issues, like a seizure disorder?
You don't have to have Jessamyn answer-- it's none of our business what's up with AG's health beyond what you've said-- but if someone's missed that AG's having absence seizures, that could be detrimental to her recovery.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 9:36 PM on July 22, 2009
You don't have to have Jessamyn answer-- it's none of our business what's up with AG's health beyond what you've said-- but if someone's missed that AG's having absence seizures, that could be detrimental to her recovery.
posted by fairytale of los angeles at 9:36 PM on July 22, 2009
My parents sound a whole lot like your AG's. On one hand, I decided a long time ago that my family was never meeting anyone I was dating who wasn't a fiancé(e). On the other hand, I don't think my family's attitude is that uncommon, just kind of unfortunate. In my case, it's not culture clash, either, although it might be a New England thing. Anyway, hopefully I can translate.
Sex. In my family, the subject is almost completely taboo for discussion. You know you're having sex with AG. On some level, her parents are aware of that too. But when you joke about knowing what AG is like when she's sleeping next to you, you imply you also know what she's like when you're fucking the shit out of her and she's whimpering your name. It's probably not a religious thing, if they're fine with a one-bedroom apartment -- but her parents don't want to have to think about their baby girl that way. At all. Ever. Especially not when they have to keep perfectly straight faces and continue a conversation with you.
When you say something like that, you force them to confront something they don't want to acknowledge -- that their sweet little daughter isn't a total innocent. This makes them uncomfortable, and it makes them consider you brash or rude. Of course you are having sex with AG, and yes, her parents' desire to ignore that is delusional. But you need to aid them in this polite fiction if you want to hope for their acceptance. (Re: her mom's joke -- reproduction is courtesy of storks. Duh. Also, depending on the family, references to people-who-are-not-you having sex might also be acceptable, but don't try this yourself.)
Adaptability, being a polite guest. Over time, families tend to develop the One Right Way to do something. In her family, apparently it's chair lifting vs. dragging. In my family, it's how to close the shower curtain -- it's been the subject of multiple 10-minute lectures complete with demonstrations.
When they repeatedly show you (either explicitly or by example) how their family does something, and you still don't comply, you're unintentionally making a statement about how much you value their input. You're not respecting them. You're not following the rules of the house. You're not willing to compromise. You're ignoring them. This might all be totally accidental on your part, but it's still how they interpret your actions.
Unpredictability, lack of social norms. Humans have a lot of unspoken rules that individuals follow to varying degrees. When you transgress one boundary, people start wondering what other rules you're comfortable breaking, and how much they can trust you to act normally. When your dad writes AG a postcard signed "Love, Dad," AG's parents don't actually worry whether your dad has a crush on AG -- but they do think "oh boy, that's weird, he seems kind of creepy, what else is strange about him?"
When you propose a frank sit-down talk about why you don't all get along, that's abnormal. It's not wrong or bad, but it's not standard behavior. So AG's family doesn't get what you're up to or why you would do that.
If you want things to work out well, I think AG is going to have to step up. I know it's going to be difficult -- it would be difficult for anyone who isn't depressed or dealing with medical issues -- but she needs to explain to you what social norms are, and she needs to make it clear to them that you're a good guy, just one who's coming from a different background. If she wants you to get along with her family, she needs to mediate and translate kind of like I tried to do here. Meanwhile, your best chance at being accepted is to keep your head down and not make waves. This means not holding a big "why don't you like me?" conference; it means quietly changing your daily behavior to fall in line better with theirs. You have the rest of your life to do as you see fit. When you're with them -- assuming your top priority is getting them to accept you -- you should act according to their standards of behavior.
posted by booksandlibretti at 10:54 PM on July 22, 2009
Sex. In my family, the subject is almost completely taboo for discussion. You know you're having sex with AG. On some level, her parents are aware of that too. But when you joke about knowing what AG is like when she's sleeping next to you, you imply you also know what she's like when you're fucking the shit out of her and she's whimpering your name. It's probably not a religious thing, if they're fine with a one-bedroom apartment -- but her parents don't want to have to think about their baby girl that way. At all. Ever. Especially not when they have to keep perfectly straight faces and continue a conversation with you.
When you say something like that, you force them to confront something they don't want to acknowledge -- that their sweet little daughter isn't a total innocent. This makes them uncomfortable, and it makes them consider you brash or rude. Of course you are having sex with AG, and yes, her parents' desire to ignore that is delusional. But you need to aid them in this polite fiction if you want to hope for their acceptance. (Re: her mom's joke -- reproduction is courtesy of storks. Duh. Also, depending on the family, references to people-who-are-not-you having sex might also be acceptable, but don't try this yourself.)
Adaptability, being a polite guest. Over time, families tend to develop the One Right Way to do something. In her family, apparently it's chair lifting vs. dragging. In my family, it's how to close the shower curtain -- it's been the subject of multiple 10-minute lectures complete with demonstrations.
When they repeatedly show you (either explicitly or by example) how their family does something, and you still don't comply, you're unintentionally making a statement about how much you value their input. You're not respecting them. You're not following the rules of the house. You're not willing to compromise. You're ignoring them. This might all be totally accidental on your part, but it's still how they interpret your actions.
Unpredictability, lack of social norms. Humans have a lot of unspoken rules that individuals follow to varying degrees. When you transgress one boundary, people start wondering what other rules you're comfortable breaking, and how much they can trust you to act normally. When your dad writes AG a postcard signed "Love, Dad," AG's parents don't actually worry whether your dad has a crush on AG -- but they do think "oh boy, that's weird, he seems kind of creepy, what else is strange about him?"
When you propose a frank sit-down talk about why you don't all get along, that's abnormal. It's not wrong or bad, but it's not standard behavior. So AG's family doesn't get what you're up to or why you would do that.
If you want things to work out well, I think AG is going to have to step up. I know it's going to be difficult -- it would be difficult for anyone who isn't depressed or dealing with medical issues -- but she needs to explain to you what social norms are, and she needs to make it clear to them that you're a good guy, just one who's coming from a different background. If she wants you to get along with her family, she needs to mediate and translate kind of like I tried to do here. Meanwhile, your best chance at being accepted is to keep your head down and not make waves. This means not holding a big "why don't you like me?" conference; it means quietly changing your daily behavior to fall in line better with theirs. You have the rest of your life to do as you see fit. When you're with them -- assuming your top priority is getting them to accept you -- you should act according to their standards of behavior.
posted by booksandlibretti at 10:54 PM on July 22, 2009
I may be totally off here but my cynical take on the situation is that you were ok when you seemed like you would shortly get a good job but now that's it's back to school, they've decided their daughter should look for someone who can help support her since she's not in shape to do it herself.
The chair thing is just being nit picky because they're already unsure about you're ability to be in good shape financially. The sex talk is causing problems because her family probably go by the code of it's not polite to talk about sex especially your own or their daughter. To them, it should be a private matter between the people involved or a friend or relative if they're asked for advice. Anything that hints about you and AG doing the deed (know that she snores) is also off limits for polite conversation.
If you think you love your AG enough to put up with her family, than keep these points in mind.
Sex talk is not polite to them. Even if they make a dirty joke, don't make one of your own. Your on probation in their eyes. Just laugh and keep your own jokes, conversation as PG as possible.
Next work on reassuring the family that you are on your way to being employed and willing to support the AG is she's unable to do so herself. If a professors says you'll have no problem getting a job, time to share. If you're networking at all, mention that too. Anything that makes you look like you are on your way to a decent job should be causally mentioned.
Whether I'm right or not, there's no harm in trying this out to you. You might give it a shot and if it seems to help, keep it up. If not, keep working on figuring something else out.
By the way, you do sound like a good guy. Depression in someone close to you is hard to deal with and you seem willing to go the distance. Your AG should probably bring that up with her family. That kind of loyalty and caring are rare.
posted by stray thoughts at 11:22 PM on July 22, 2009
The chair thing is just being nit picky because they're already unsure about you're ability to be in good shape financially. The sex talk is causing problems because her family probably go by the code of it's not polite to talk about sex especially your own or their daughter. To them, it should be a private matter between the people involved or a friend or relative if they're asked for advice. Anything that hints about you and AG doing the deed (know that she snores) is also off limits for polite conversation.
If you think you love your AG enough to put up with her family, than keep these points in mind.
Sex talk is not polite to them. Even if they make a dirty joke, don't make one of your own. Your on probation in their eyes. Just laugh and keep your own jokes, conversation as PG as possible.
Next work on reassuring the family that you are on your way to being employed and willing to support the AG is she's unable to do so herself. If a professors says you'll have no problem getting a job, time to share. If you're networking at all, mention that too. Anything that makes you look like you are on your way to a decent job should be causally mentioned.
Whether I'm right or not, there's no harm in trying this out to you. You might give it a shot and if it seems to help, keep it up. If not, keep working on figuring something else out.
By the way, you do sound like a good guy. Depression in someone close to you is hard to deal with and you seem willing to go the distance. Your AG should probably bring that up with her family. That kind of loyalty and caring are rare.
posted by stray thoughts at 11:22 PM on July 22, 2009
I also suspect this all comes down to financial stability.
Male=breadwinner / Woman (especially fragile, ailing)=wife under breadwinner's care.
That's how a lot of people think. Maybe your girlfriend wants that too?
She might have been hoping for financial stability in the near future with you. Since that possibility has changed, maybe she sees her parents as the ones in a position to care for her. You need to have a serious talk with your girlfriend to find out what she wants from you in the long run.
As booksandlibretti said, the way to deal with the parents is to follow their rules and use your best manners. And no jokes or goofing around, because humor can easily be misinterpreted.
From New England to Texas (in my experience) that's common sense.
posted by vincele at 12:53 AM on July 23, 2009
Male=breadwinner / Woman (especially fragile, ailing)=wife under breadwinner's care.
That's how a lot of people think. Maybe your girlfriend wants that too?
She might have been hoping for financial stability in the near future with you. Since that possibility has changed, maybe she sees her parents as the ones in a position to care for her. You need to have a serious talk with your girlfriend to find out what she wants from you in the long run.
As booksandlibretti said, the way to deal with the parents is to follow their rules and use your best manners. And no jokes or goofing around, because humor can easily be misinterpreted.
From New England to Texas (in my experience) that's common sense.
posted by vincele at 12:53 AM on July 23, 2009
I dated someone like this for about a year and a half. Caused a big (unknown to me until later) commotion by putting the newspaper beside me on the couch while reading it, and also by taking the last helping of something at dinner time (I did ask first, if anyone else wanted more). Point is, it was a house full of rules that were unseen, which they did not inform me of. In my experience, that level of control issues is a huge red flag. My gf then was also awesome, but many issues came up over time from her lifetime of living in the control zone. A person who grows up like that is going to have problems with adapting to others.
My advice is to move on. Even though gf is awesome, life is short, and you sound like you deserve someone who is not loaded with so much baggage.
posted by midwestguy at 8:12 AM on July 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
My advice is to move on. Even though gf is awesome, life is short, and you sound like you deserve someone who is not loaded with so much baggage.
posted by midwestguy at 8:12 AM on July 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
Lots of people have covered the potential "her family is totally crazy!" angle, so I think I'll take the other side. You seem like a nice guy, but a lot of the ways that you're phrasing things really make me sort of guess that the problem isn't 100% their weirdness.
I think you need to realize that there's a big continuum of family styles that stretches from (nearly boundary-less) openness and radical honesty to extreme politeness and respect for other family members' privacy and boundaries on the other.** One of the key things to realize is that in families where openness and honesty are prized (like yours), you often get a dynamic where you don't consciously think a lot about other people's needs or, most critically, making other people comfortable. That's not a bad thing, it just arises from the expectation that others will speak up if you step on their toes or start doing something that bothers them. For families where politeness is more valued (like your girlfriend's), there's a lot more focus outward, on making other people comfortable and censoring oneself from doing or saying things that might make others uncomfortable. It also usually means that these people won't speak up if you're irritating them or overstepping your boundaries--they're more concerned with not making you uncomfortable then they are with their own comfort.
So, there's a couple of places where you've gone wrong here, and in almost every one it's because you're more focused on yourself (not in a self-centered way, but about presenting yourself right) rather than on them and making them comfortable. Again, I'm not saying that makes you a bad person, I'm just trying to point out the specific place where this is going off the rails in terms of culture clash.
(1) Constantly pushing them to "get everything in the open"--whether that takes the form of your girlfriend pushing and pushing them for their honest opinion on you, or your desire to sit down and have a conversation about their problem with you--is the wrong thing to do, because it's almost guaranteed to be something that makes them really uncomfortable. Asking them about their opinion of you is going to come across as particularly rude: you're not really entitled to know every thought that goes through their head, and it puts them in an awkward position of either being rude by telling you it's none of your business, or telling you their opinion. If they wanted you to know their opinion of them, they'd tell you; the fact that they haven't (and telling your girlfriend doesn't count as telling you) means it's not an okay topic of conversation.
(2) Talking about or alluding to sex--or any private details of your relationship with their daughter, really--is probably coming off as exhibitionist at best, and "marking your territory" at worst. Boundaries should be the new keyword in your interactions with them; before you talk, think to yourself "is this going to make them uncomfortable or feel like they know more about me then they want to?" If you don't have an internal sense of what qualifies as TMI, draw the line as conservatively as possible until you're more sure. Spilling a lot of personal details, about yourself or your relationship, before you're really close to someone is either going to make you really close, or make the other person resent you for forcing that familiarity. Unfortunately this one becomes a really vicious cycle, because the more they feel like you don't respect boundaries the more otherwise-innocuous comments are going to feel invasive or inappropriate to them. The only cure is to get a track record of keeping things not-overly-personal until they feel more comfortable.
(3) You didn't say anything about this but I'm going to throw it out anyway, because in my experience it often goes hand-in-hand with the idea that being totally open and honest and not hiding anything is the best way to interact with all people: no talking about or displaying bodily functions, please. If you need to fart or blow your nose, please walk to the bathroom; and everybody else doesn't want to know about it. Ever. Under any circumstance. The absolute most one can say without making others uncomfortable is something along the lines of "I must have eaten something that disagreed with me, because my stomach is just killing me." I apologize if that's all totally off the mark, I just thought it needed to be said because it's something that could really make a family like this totally dislike you without you realizing why.
All of the above is what you should stop doing. To fix the raw feelings already there, I suggest thinking of ways to be thoughtful in your interactions with them. You shouldn't feel stilted if you're more concerned with observing them and noticing ways to help them out or be polite than you are with observing yourself for any wrong moves. Bring a bottle of wine the next time you go to dinner. Ask more questions (and NOT invasive personal questions) about them: how is their work going? what are they working on these days? beautiful garden outside; did you plant it yourself? and so on. Offer to help chop the salad or wash the dishes. Think of how you'd act if you went to dinner at a new boss's house: you're shooting for that level of politeness. I know you want to treat them just like they're your family, but they're not, and treating them like that before you've actually done the work of earning their trust and friendship is actually profoundly disrepectful. (Of course, they'd probably never tell you that to your face!)
**I can almost hear your objection now: we're just really honest and loving in my family! Anything not like that is cold, unfeeling, and dysfunctional! Realize that the two side of this continuum don't have anything to do with being friendly or warm--I've certainly known people who were very "open" about telling people exactly what they thought of them, and some of the genuinely nicest people I've met are also almost fastidiously polite in their interactions with others. I have also noticed that people who grew up in families where honesty was prized above politeness have a hard time accepting the validity of the other way then vice versa; that might be why your girlfriend feels so stuck between you and her family--she might not think either party is particularly wrong.
posted by iminurmefi at 11:20 AM on July 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
I think you need to realize that there's a big continuum of family styles that stretches from (nearly boundary-less) openness and radical honesty to extreme politeness and respect for other family members' privacy and boundaries on the other.** One of the key things to realize is that in families where openness and honesty are prized (like yours), you often get a dynamic where you don't consciously think a lot about other people's needs or, most critically, making other people comfortable. That's not a bad thing, it just arises from the expectation that others will speak up if you step on their toes or start doing something that bothers them. For families where politeness is more valued (like your girlfriend's), there's a lot more focus outward, on making other people comfortable and censoring oneself from doing or saying things that might make others uncomfortable. It also usually means that these people won't speak up if you're irritating them or overstepping your boundaries--they're more concerned with not making you uncomfortable then they are with their own comfort.
So, there's a couple of places where you've gone wrong here, and in almost every one it's because you're more focused on yourself (not in a self-centered way, but about presenting yourself right) rather than on them and making them comfortable. Again, I'm not saying that makes you a bad person, I'm just trying to point out the specific place where this is going off the rails in terms of culture clash.
(1) Constantly pushing them to "get everything in the open"--whether that takes the form of your girlfriend pushing and pushing them for their honest opinion on you, or your desire to sit down and have a conversation about their problem with you--is the wrong thing to do, because it's almost guaranteed to be something that makes them really uncomfortable. Asking them about their opinion of you is going to come across as particularly rude: you're not really entitled to know every thought that goes through their head, and it puts them in an awkward position of either being rude by telling you it's none of your business, or telling you their opinion. If they wanted you to know their opinion of them, they'd tell you; the fact that they haven't (and telling your girlfriend doesn't count as telling you) means it's not an okay topic of conversation.
(2) Talking about or alluding to sex--or any private details of your relationship with their daughter, really--is probably coming off as exhibitionist at best, and "marking your territory" at worst. Boundaries should be the new keyword in your interactions with them; before you talk, think to yourself "is this going to make them uncomfortable or feel like they know more about me then they want to?" If you don't have an internal sense of what qualifies as TMI, draw the line as conservatively as possible until you're more sure. Spilling a lot of personal details, about yourself or your relationship, before you're really close to someone is either going to make you really close, or make the other person resent you for forcing that familiarity. Unfortunately this one becomes a really vicious cycle, because the more they feel like you don't respect boundaries the more otherwise-innocuous comments are going to feel invasive or inappropriate to them. The only cure is to get a track record of keeping things not-overly-personal until they feel more comfortable.
(3) You didn't say anything about this but I'm going to throw it out anyway, because in my experience it often goes hand-in-hand with the idea that being totally open and honest and not hiding anything is the best way to interact with all people: no talking about or displaying bodily functions, please. If you need to fart or blow your nose, please walk to the bathroom; and everybody else doesn't want to know about it. Ever. Under any circumstance. The absolute most one can say without making others uncomfortable is something along the lines of "I must have eaten something that disagreed with me, because my stomach is just killing me." I apologize if that's all totally off the mark, I just thought it needed to be said because it's something that could really make a family like this totally dislike you without you realizing why.
All of the above is what you should stop doing. To fix the raw feelings already there, I suggest thinking of ways to be thoughtful in your interactions with them. You shouldn't feel stilted if you're more concerned with observing them and noticing ways to help them out or be polite than you are with observing yourself for any wrong moves. Bring a bottle of wine the next time you go to dinner. Ask more questions (and NOT invasive personal questions) about them: how is their work going? what are they working on these days? beautiful garden outside; did you plant it yourself? and so on. Offer to help chop the salad or wash the dishes. Think of how you'd act if you went to dinner at a new boss's house: you're shooting for that level of politeness. I know you want to treat them just like they're your family, but they're not, and treating them like that before you've actually done the work of earning their trust and friendship is actually profoundly disrepectful. (Of course, they'd probably never tell you that to your face!)
**I can almost hear your objection now: we're just really honest and loving in my family! Anything not like that is cold, unfeeling, and dysfunctional! Realize that the two side of this continuum don't have anything to do with being friendly or warm--I've certainly known people who were very "open" about telling people exactly what they thought of them, and some of the genuinely nicest people I've met are also almost fastidiously polite in their interactions with others. I have also noticed that people who grew up in families where honesty was prized above politeness have a hard time accepting the validity of the other way then vice versa; that might be why your girlfriend feels so stuck between you and her family--she might not think either party is particularly wrong.
posted by iminurmefi at 11:20 AM on July 23, 2009 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Your post here is too unfocused.
Honestly, I have no idea what you're talking about through half of your post.
I hate to say it but perhaps her family is on to something. You need to figure out a way to communicate, to us or to her family, in a concise and coherent manner.
Sorry if this sounds harsh.
posted by dfriedman at 3:31 PM on July 22, 2009 [1 favorite]