My dear old Monopoly U.

September 9, 2008 6:39 AM

My public university has a rule which only allows me to take classes for transferable credit at an outside institution (say, a community college) if I first register for at least 12 credit hours with said university. Is this standing operating procedure, and what can I do about it?

I learned about this rule the hard way, after having registered for a foreign language class at a much cheaper community college nearby. Considering that it was almost impossible to get into intro-level Spanish at my university, it seemed like a no-brainer. Then I found out that the university wouldn't even accept the credit, due to the fact that I was only registered for 9 credit hours with them.

When I asked an adviser at my university why this rule was in place and what possible purpose it served, her answer was, quite simply, "money." The implication being that the university wants to get as much from me as it can before letting me go elsewhere. A related point is that the university uses a flat tuition system wherein you pay the same amount for anything over and including 12 hours -- so after 12 hours they've already gotten the maximum amount of money possible from you, which I suppose is why they're then ok with letting you go elsewhere.

I think the rule is ludicrous, especially given that some people (myself included) are only willing/able to take a maximum of 12 hours total per semester, which eliminates the possibility of going elsewhere for transferrable credit.

Yes, it seems like a sweet little setup they've got going for themselves. The question is what can I do about it, if anything? How does one go about fighting such a rule within a large bureaucracy? Doesn't this fall under the category of monopolistic, anti-competitive, or at the very least, generally unfair for the students they're supposed to be serving?

posted by iamisaid to education (18 comments total)

Doesn't this fall under the category of monopolistic, anti-competitive, or at the very least, generally unfair for the students they're supposed to be serving?

Monopolistic? You have other choices in universities. Unfair? How fair is it to the university that you will graduate with a degree with their name on it yet you want to actually take a quarter of your course load at a different institution?
posted by caddis at 6:49 AM on September 9, 2008

They will accept a much more substantial amount of transfer credit from transfer students (often up to a full two-year's worth) and still award that same person a university degree, so I fail to see the distinction.

For undergrad intro courses, does it really make a difference where the classes are taken?

Of course I have other choices in universities, but that doesn't keep me from believing that such a rule is unethical for a state university and seeking to change it.
posted by iamisaid at 6:56 AM on September 9, 2008

There is actually a defensible pedagogical reason for this, and money isn't entirely it. Most colleges charge the same amount per semester if you take between 12 and 18 credits, so taking the odd class elsewhere doesn't affect their bottom line very much.

What it does prevent is people taking required courses elsewhere in an attempt to avoid deliberately difficult courses because all institutions of higher education are not created equal. Say you're in a major research university. Say you want to major in, oh, Biology. Say you're pretty good at bio, but weak in chemistry. An enterprising student would take chemistry over the summer at a podunk community college, thereby avoiding a difficult class while still meeting all graduation requirements. Thing is, those required courses are supposed to be hard, because that's why it's a major research institution, not a podunk community college.

As educational institutions function on reputation to an extraordinary degree, preventing people from gaming the system by getting a prestigious name on their diploma while taking courses at a less-rigorous institution makes a lot of sense. You can't fight it, and it actually serves a very useful purpose.

The exception for transferring more than 12 credits exists so that people can transfer into the institution if they started their educational career elsewhere, i.e. completed at least one complete semester at a different school.
posted by valkyryn at 6:57 AM on September 9, 2008

You seem to have it easy. The school I'll be going to next year, and I believe along with the school I'm currently enrolled at, won't let you take any outside classes for credit once you are enrolled full time towards a major. I found out about only after I enrolled, but since the school I'm going to now is the cheaper community college, it doesn't affect me much.

The only way I see around this is to not need to transfer credit to the public university, but instead ultimately get your degree at a third school. This is more or less what I've done: the school I'm currently taking classes at is really the third college I've gone to (though this is technically my freshman year), and everything will be transferring over to the fourth college next year.

One other thing to check into, though I now this wouldn't be allowed at my school, is transferring summer classes. If you take 12 credits this semester (or even if you don't), can you transfer anything you take outside of the regular school year?
posted by niles at 6:58 AM on September 9, 2008

now know
posted by niles at 7:01 AM on September 9, 2008

No, it's not unfair, and yes, if you make a big enough stink you might be able to fight it, but I doubt it. If you want a degree from a university (and if you care about credit for the hours, I guess you do) you're going to need to attend it and follow their rules. Why is it when you're trying to save money it's reasonable, but when the university wants to earn money it's unfair?

Considering that it was almost impossible to get into intro-level Spanish at my university, it seemed like a no-brainer.
This beggars belief. Intro level language classes can be taught by practically anyone.
posted by mzurer at 7:05 AM on September 9, 2008

You are welcome to take most of your classes at the other institution, and get a degree from them. If you want the degree from the University of Whatever, you have to take most of your classes from them. In fact, many people get a 2 year degree from a community college, then proceed to get their bachelor's degree from a University.

There's a reason why the University is more expensive.
posted by theora55 at 7:15 AM on September 9, 2008 [1 favorite]

IT ABOUT MONEY! I work a university and this is par for the course. You're lucky that at least they don't have an approved list of colleges you'll be able to attend and don't charge you a fee for doing so.

If you're still a freshman, why not just enroll at the community college and go for your associates degree? You can still go to your public university or apply somewhere else in 18-24 months.

You might also be able to take classes at the public university while in community college for the JC rate.
posted by parmanparman at 7:18 AM on September 9, 2008

I'm sorry to say, but I doubt you'll get anywhere fighting this. My experience with public universities is that their bureaucracies are as cold and unyielding as at any other public institution. Because of the way similar, seemingly arbitrary rules concerning "resident status" at my institution combine with local tax law, I end up paying property tax as though I make twice as much income as I ever see. Others, who get the exact same benefits, do the exact same job, pay the exact same income tax, but in some cases have lived in the state six fewer years than I have often get the benefit of "resident" status ahead of me--which means they pay property tax on a significantly lower income scale. My appeals have been met with the finger.

There may be some pedagogical reason for the particular requirement you're butting up against, as others have suggested, but the most important factor is almost certainly money. Otherwise it would properly be left up to individual departments to decide. The suggestions that universities set policies based solely (or even primarily) on academic concerns, or that they are genuinely concerned with making sure you did the expected amount of work are simply naive. You've discovered one of the many, many tricks universities pull to get more money. Look into "thesis credit" requirements for another ridiculous example.

I would recommend looking into other ways to get through your foreign language requirement. Can you test out of the requirement?
posted by dsword at 7:32 AM on September 9, 2008

iamisaid: For undergrad intro courses, does it really make a difference where the classes are taken?

No. Am I missing something?

Why in the world don't you quit going there and go elsewhere? You can easily just transfer back if you want to graduate there.

Isn't it generally assumed that you take classes at the university where you're enrolled?
posted by koeselitz at 7:34 AM on September 9, 2008

I mean, why are you enrolled there if you don't want to take classes there?
posted by koeselitz at 7:36 AM on September 9, 2008

The problem I have with the policy is that it is acceptable to take outside classes for credit at certain times but not at others. This tells me that it has nothing at all to do with pedagogy and everything to do with money. @valkyryn, I could, in fact, take that chemistry class at Podunk Community College over the summer, or in the spring/fall after taking 12 hours. There's nothing to stop me and the university would accept the hours. If the rule was no outside classes whatsoever, as @niles indicates, I would find that more understandable.

Whether or not it is acceptable for the university to expect a full class load's tuition every semester is another matter. Perhaps it is and I'm in the wrong.

But I'm talking about 5-10 hours of basic foreign language credit, not some large amount of upper-division classes relevant to my major. If I could have transferred those exact same hours from Podunk Community as a transfer student and had them count towards a State U. degree, I fail to see why I can't go take them at Podunk Community now while still enrolled at State U.
posted by iamisaid at 7:39 AM on September 9, 2008

@koeselitz, because I want a four-year university degree and want the expertise offered by the faculty members in my major. I don't see the need to take Spanish I at the university, when they don't offer enough classes to meet the student demand and the tuition is much, much cheaper at the CC across the street. But as others have said, at this point I'll probably try to learn it on my own and test out of it (Rosetta Stone, I'm looking at you).
posted by iamisaid at 7:44 AM on September 9, 2008

You weren't enrolled at State U. when you took them though. So State U. hasn't lost any money.

You're not going to be able to fight it. But there are a few ways I can think of off the top of my head to get around it.

1 - Take 3 PEs (usually 1 hour classes). You get the credits you need, and exercise.
2 - Find a ridiculously easy class and Pass/Fail it. Yeah, you won't get credit for it on your GPA. But it is hours, and you can have the knowledge that you're getting 15 hours of credit but only doing 12 hours of work if the class is easy enough.
posted by theichibun at 7:49 AM on September 9, 2008

Something I should have put in the last post. What year are you? There are never going to be enough classes to fit all of the student demand (otherwise my school would have about 50 sections of astronomy). But there are enough classes where people aren't getting messed up with graduation.

If you're not graduating this year then you've still got time to take the class (and the easy class in with the rest of your senior stuff will be appreciated).

If you are graduating this year, then you really should have talked to people about getting an override into the class. I've never seen someone turned down for that if they needed the class (or set of classes as languages are) to graduate.
posted by theichibun at 7:52 AM on September 9, 2008

A friend of mine in college took two years of classes alongside us through the state college in town. Then he transferred to my school. They didn't accept the credits, even though he'd taken the exact same classes with the same teachers. He had to go back and re-take almost everything.

(that he died driving home from an all-nighter, after insisting on doing all the work himself and not just copying my work, and then to have the teacher not let me turn in my homework two hours late so i could attend his funeral, still makes me seethe fifteen years later.)
posted by notsnot at 7:56 AM on September 9, 2008

If they're going to give you a diploma that says you were a full-time student there, they want you enrolled as a full-time student.

They don't mind transfer students, transfer students will (usually) get some sort of mark on their transcript that indicates the first year or two was transferred. They don't mind you transferring classes that you took over the summer, that was additional work you did and you were presumably still acting like a full-time student during the school year. But if you are going to graduate from them as a full-time student who was there for four years, they want you to be a full-time student who was there for four years.

As a previous poster said, this is not always about money. It's also about upholding institutional standards. I can't a class a semester from Harvard, fill in the rest from Podunk Community College, and then claim a Harvard degree. Your situation is less extreme but that's probably where they're coming from.
posted by schroedinger at 8:00 AM on September 9, 2008

Look, the institution needs some kind of easily-enforceable, black-letter rule to preserve the integrity of their education and prevent people from trying to game their system. They may in fact be required to have such a rule by their accreditation agency, which is responsible for certifying their quality. The benefit of black-letter rules is that you don't need a case-by-case evaluation, which takes an incredible amount of time. Hence the 12-credit minimum for transfer credit: the vast majority of people who haven't matriculated full-time at a different institution will have less than 12 credits there, so as all they're really trying to do is prevent taking classes on the side, it's a pretty good rule.

The disadvantage is that because they're pretty inflexible, especially creative solutions can be used to avoid them. So yes, if you insist upon taking a bunch of courses elsewhere, deliberately trying to get around their rules, you probably can. Doesn't mean it's a good idea, nor does it call into question the validity of the original rule. All it proves is that you're willing to be more crotchety than average about it and aren't terribly keen on institutional loyalty.

You're being exceptionally consumeristic about this. Institutions of higher learning are called "universities" for a reason: there's at least a residual belief that the various departments are actively pursuing the same institutional mission, whatever that may be. In secular state institutions, it tends to be something like "the advancement of knowledge" or what have you. In religious institutions it's things like the further glory of God or other such language. But there is a unifying belief--or at least there was--that the Spanish department is not wholly severable from the Physics department, even though their subjects may be different. Just because you can, at least in theory, take every course from a different university doesn't mean it's a good idea.

I'm also with mzurer: it's almost impossible to believe that a major state university worthy of the name has insufficient spots in their Intro to Spanish classes. They may not have any free spots this particular semester in a time when you can/want to go, but 1) that's just how it goes, deal with it like everybody else, and 2) you can always take the class next year when you have a better registration time.
posted by valkyryn at 8:31 AM on September 9, 2008