Episode 954 of Melrose Place
September 16, 2007 11:55 AM Subscribe
What would you do if one member of your inner circle is screwing around on another member? Keep quiet? Spill the beans?
John Doe has been wooing Jane Roe, and signalling to her that he intends for something serious. Both John and Jane are part of my inner circle of friends. Last night John cheated on Jane, and rudely interrupted my sleep doing so (John is my flat mate). It sounded like a porno with the volume on full. On anyone. Period.
Complicating the matter is that John probably assumes this behaviour is kosher with me, because I also behave pretty ruthlessly with people outside of my inner circle. However, I have never and will never fuck over someone in my inner circle. And even if I'm quite the slut, I never cheat.
The most convenient thing would be to keep my mouth shut. My gut doesn't quite sit right with that though.
Advice, please.
John Doe has been wooing Jane Roe, and signalling to her that he intends for something serious. Both John and Jane are part of my inner circle of friends. Last night John cheated on Jane, and rudely interrupted my sleep doing so (John is my flat mate). It sounded like a porno with the volume on full. On anyone. Period.
Complicating the matter is that John probably assumes this behaviour is kosher with me, because I also behave pretty ruthlessly with people outside of my inner circle. However, I have never and will never fuck over someone in my inner circle. And even if I'm quite the slut, I never cheat.
The most convenient thing would be to keep my mouth shut. My gut doesn't quite sit right with that though.
Advice, please.
Are John and Jane actually in "something serious" yet? Even if it's coming soon, if they're not, then they're not, and that's that. Also, it doesn't involve you, so it's none of your business (even if you can hear the business of others). If it comes up later, plead the fifth. ("Really? I had no idea!")
(My answer would be different if they had been "serious" for any period of time.)
posted by AlisonM at 12:09 PM on September 16, 2007 [1 favorite]
(My answer would be different if they had been "serious" for any period of time.)
posted by AlisonM at 12:09 PM on September 16, 2007 [1 favorite]
Is there a list circulated of who's in the inner circle and who's not? Are John and Jane actually involved--and I mean in a way where both are clear about the status of their relationship? Because you say John Doe has been wooing Jane Roe, signalling that he intends for something serious and also John cheated on Jane. Those two sentences don't compute in my book. If all involved are adults, then I think it best to let them work it out among themselves. In any case, it sounds like John doesn't know that you're not the type to lie or cover up for him. Or that you might have feelings or Jane. Clearing those two things up might help a lot of things.
posted by cocoagirl at 12:12 PM on September 16, 2007
posted by cocoagirl at 12:12 PM on September 16, 2007
Well, you could talk to John Doe about it. If he's in your inner circle, perhaps you could tell him that what he did seems wrong to you.
posted by number9dream at 12:15 PM on September 16, 2007
posted by number9dream at 12:15 PM on September 16, 2007
myob++
posted by Saucy Intruder at 12:30 PM on September 16, 2007
posted by Saucy Intruder at 12:30 PM on September 16, 2007
Best answer: That distinction that you make, where you behave 'pretty ruthlessly' with people outside your 'inner circle' and 'have never and will never' fucked over someone in your 'inner circle'? It's bullshit. You've found a way to justify, in your own mind, treating people badly.
I bet Doe's got some kind of similar rationalizations. Maybe Roe ceased to be a member of his inner circle at the very moment that he began cheating on her. Because that would be okay, right?
posted by box at 12:31 PM on September 16, 2007 [3 favorites]
I bet Doe's got some kind of similar rationalizations. Maybe Roe ceased to be a member of his inner circle at the very moment that he began cheating on her. Because that would be okay, right?
posted by box at 12:31 PM on September 16, 2007 [3 favorites]
myob+++
posted by puppy kuddles at 12:36 PM on September 16, 2007
posted by puppy kuddles at 12:36 PM on September 16, 2007
Response by poster: Interesting...box. Thanks for calling me out on my bullshit. I should reform my ways with how I treat people in general.
Regardless, the dilemna with John and Jane still stands.
posted by randomstriker at 12:39 PM on September 16, 2007
Regardless, the dilemna with John and Jane still stands.
posted by randomstriker at 12:39 PM on September 16, 2007
It doesn't sound like John and Jane are in a situation where John's behavior would qualify as cheating.
posted by rhizome at 12:45 PM on September 16, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 12:45 PM on September 16, 2007 [1 favorite]
Well, can you clarify the relationship a bit?
Because I agree with many of the above: this is not cool if there is already something serious between the two; if they're still in the courtship stage, and are not formally involved, then I think it's not really your business. What I'm getting, from what you've written, is that they aren't involved yet.
If you still feel not okay about the situation, I'd talk to him about it. I think that would be within the boundaries of fair behavior, but could come off as kind of nosey.
posted by HighTechUnderpants at 12:48 PM on September 16, 2007
Because I agree with many of the above: this is not cool if there is already something serious between the two; if they're still in the courtship stage, and are not formally involved, then I think it's not really your business. What I'm getting, from what you've written, is that they aren't involved yet.
If you still feel not okay about the situation, I'd talk to him about it. I think that would be within the boundaries of fair behavior, but could come off as kind of nosey.
posted by HighTechUnderpants at 12:48 PM on September 16, 2007
I think you are upset you got woken up.
Anyway, the person to talk to is your flatmate.
posted by konolia at 12:54 PM on September 16, 2007
Anyway, the person to talk to is your flatmate.
posted by konolia at 12:54 PM on September 16, 2007
I'd never ever say anything to her. I'd approach him and make it more about the noise and disturbance than the cheating - like "dude, I don't know what that was last night, but it was gross. You and Jane not seeing each other anymore huh?'. If he thinks of you as a basically moral person, then you should be able to give him the idea that it's tacky and awkward and not really socially acceptable.
If you are a giant hypocrite who screws around everyone you don't define as 'inner circle' however, then you're right, he isn't going to take a gentle hint that it isn't ok, and you don't have much of a leg to stand on. Not because you're a bad person, just because you don't have any moral authority with him.
posted by crabintheocean at 12:54 PM on September 16, 2007 [1 favorite]
If you are a giant hypocrite who screws around everyone you don't define as 'inner circle' however, then you're right, he isn't going to take a gentle hint that it isn't ok, and you don't have much of a leg to stand on. Not because you're a bad person, just because you don't have any moral authority with him.
posted by crabintheocean at 12:54 PM on September 16, 2007 [1 favorite]
Yeah, 23skidoo, I think randomstriker is in the UK, and in my experience it doesn't work the same there. You're monogamous from the first date unless you make it clear that that's not the deal.
posted by crabintheocean at 12:56 PM on September 16, 2007
posted by crabintheocean at 12:56 PM on September 16, 2007
Yeah, I would say "hey John. What's up with you and Jane? I'm asking vis a vis the noisy sex with whatserface"
And since Jane's your friend it wouldn't be untoward to ask him to try to show her some consideration. But I'd definitely give him the chance to sort things out himself (or at least give you his side of the story) before you go telling on him. And "you tell her or I will" is still better than "Oh by the way, Jane hates you now and it's my fault."
posted by aubilenon at 12:56 PM on September 16, 2007
And since Jane's your friend it wouldn't be untoward to ask him to try to show her some consideration. But I'd definitely give him the chance to sort things out himself (or at least give you his side of the story) before you go telling on him. And "you tell her or I will" is still better than "Oh by the way, Jane hates you now and it's my fault."
posted by aubilenon at 12:56 PM on September 16, 2007
Randomstriker - you've responded to your own thread without answering *the* fundamental questions - are Jane and John truly dating? Are they having sex?
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 12:58 PM on September 16, 2007
posted by Dee Xtrovert at 12:58 PM on September 16, 2007
n'thing the MYOB above... but if you absolutely can't keep your mouth shut then the person you should talk to about the issue is your flatmate, not your mutual friend.
Tell him you feel uncomfortable knowing that he is sleeping around behind your mutual friend's back. Perhaps he has an explanation as cold and calculated as yours regarding who you "fuck over"...
Again, I urge you to mind your own business. Who knows what type of arrangement your friends have?
At best you wind up alienating one of your close friends, at worst you wind up hurting and alienating them both.
posted by wfrgms at 1:07 PM on September 16, 2007
Tell him you feel uncomfortable knowing that he is sleeping around behind your mutual friend's back. Perhaps he has an explanation as cold and calculated as yours regarding who you "fuck over"...
Again, I urge you to mind your own business. Who knows what type of arrangement your friends have?
At best you wind up alienating one of your close friends, at worst you wind up hurting and alienating them both.
posted by wfrgms at 1:07 PM on September 16, 2007
Response by poster: No, I'm in Vancouver (I'm a transplant from the UK).
posted by randomstriker at 1:08 PM on September 16, 2007
posted by randomstriker at 1:08 PM on September 16, 2007
Generally speaking, I tend to be a "myob" type. Of course I have opinions, strong ones usually, about the way things "should be done", but for the most part, I don't get the right to express them unless the people around me 1) asked, or 2) are the listening type.
In this case, though, I think that myob is really bad advice, because both of these people are supposed to be your friends. And if you tacitly approve of your buddy screwing another buddy, then said "other buddy" who just got screwed has no reason to trust you. So yeah, you chose bros before hos, except that now your short a friend.
crabintheocean is right in that you don't have any moral authority here if you are "ruthless with others". You can't play that card with your friend. But what you can play is, "Listen man, she's our friend, so either play the hand or fold". Let his conscience go through hell.
Talking to her, BTW, is bullshit. Because then you're not only short one friend, but two. (If you were going to talk, you would've done it by now...and that's likely the way she'll feel about it. Well after the fact tells her that you cared more about the other guy than her. Just my opinion in this case; i could be wrong depending on her personality.)
Of course, the x factor here, that people have asked you about but you still haven't told us, is what exactly is this relationship? Is it the early stages of fooling around and just seeing where things go, or does this girl think of it as a commitment?
You should do what you think is right by your friend (the one that got screwed). If you think it's okay to do that to friends, that's your game, and whatever, let it go. But if you feel like she deserves better, then you should tell your other buddy to man up.
posted by SeizeTheDay at 1:09 PM on September 16, 2007
In this case, though, I think that myob is really bad advice, because both of these people are supposed to be your friends. And if you tacitly approve of your buddy screwing another buddy, then said "other buddy" who just got screwed has no reason to trust you. So yeah, you chose bros before hos, except that now your short a friend.
crabintheocean is right in that you don't have any moral authority here if you are "ruthless with others". You can't play that card with your friend. But what you can play is, "Listen man, she's our friend, so either play the hand or fold". Let his conscience go through hell.
Talking to her, BTW, is bullshit. Because then you're not only short one friend, but two. (If you were going to talk, you would've done it by now...and that's likely the way she'll feel about it. Well after the fact tells her that you cared more about the other guy than her. Just my opinion in this case; i could be wrong depending on her personality.)
Of course, the x factor here, that people have asked you about but you still haven't told us, is what exactly is this relationship? Is it the early stages of fooling around and just seeing where things go, or does this girl think of it as a commitment?
You should do what you think is right by your friend (the one that got screwed). If you think it's okay to do that to friends, that's your game, and whatever, let it go. But if you feel like she deserves better, then you should tell your other buddy to man up.
posted by SeizeTheDay at 1:09 PM on September 16, 2007
Response by poster: They have been spending a LOT of time together for a few months now. That is all I know, as I have not been prying. John has, however, previously declared that he has liked Jane for a long time and is finally making a serious go of it with her.
John, Jane and I are all part of a circle that is pretty tight knit. I think I'll keep my trap shut for now...but do keep the advice coming.
posted by randomstriker at 1:12 PM on September 16, 2007
John, Jane and I are all part of a circle that is pretty tight knit. I think I'll keep my trap shut for now...but do keep the advice coming.
posted by randomstriker at 1:12 PM on September 16, 2007
The sort of evil part of me thinks that if John and Jane are not dating, and Jane is not supposed to mind if John is sleeping with other people, then it should not be a problem if, in conversation with Jane, you complain about the noisy sex John was having last night. After all, that's the sort of thing friends do, right? Bitch about their roommates' inconsiderate behaviour?
If John and Jane are not dating Jane shouldn't mind, and John shouldn't regard 'is sleeping with other people' as a secret to be kept from Jane. If John and Jane are dating--or at least one of the two thinks they are--that should throw the whole relationship question into sharp relief.
It would still be evil, mind you.
posted by jacquilynne at 1:37 PM on September 16, 2007
If John and Jane are not dating Jane shouldn't mind, and John shouldn't regard 'is sleeping with other people' as a secret to be kept from Jane. If John and Jane are dating--or at least one of the two thinks they are--that should throw the whole relationship question into sharp relief.
It would still be evil, mind you.
posted by jacquilynne at 1:37 PM on September 16, 2007
John is your flatmate so talk to him. It doesn't sound like you know what's going on between him and Jane so I would just mention to him that she's a good friend of yours and you hope they're not exclusive because cheating on her would not be cool with you.
posted by gfrobe at 1:48 PM on September 16, 2007
posted by gfrobe at 1:48 PM on September 16, 2007
you: i take it from all the excitement last night that things with jane didn't work out?
if john says no: oh, bummer.
if john says anything else: mm-hmm (judgmentally)
nuff said.
posted by thinkingwoman at 1:52 PM on September 16, 2007 [1 favorite]
There are one, maybe two messages you might tell John here, if you say anything: 1) you're concerned about Jane getting hurt and feel protective of her, and 2) you certainly don't want to be in the middle.
Message 1, bulldozer approach: "Normally I'd say 'do whatever you want.' But Jane's a good friend of mine. You'd better not hurt her." You'd be putting him on the defensive and siding with her without knowing the full story, so you risk being completely wrong and looking like a jerk.
Message 1, super-cautious approach: "How are things with Jane?" [worried look on your face]. Maybe they broke up.
Message 1, other approaches: I like seizetheday's "hey man, she's our friend," and thinkingwoman's "mmm-hmm" ideas.
Message 2: "hey, I don't know what the story is with you and Jane, and I don't need to, but she is a good friend of mine and I don't want her to get hurt. If I hear this shit, I'm in an awkward position. What you do is your deal, not mine, but don't put me in the middle."
I don't know if you need to say either of these things, but the truth is that you are worried for her and you do feel awkward, so you could potentially let him know.
posted by salvia at 2:07 PM on September 16, 2007
Message 1, bulldozer approach: "Normally I'd say 'do whatever you want.' But Jane's a good friend of mine. You'd better not hurt her." You'd be putting him on the defensive and siding with her without knowing the full story, so you risk being completely wrong and looking like a jerk.
Message 1, super-cautious approach: "How are things with Jane?" [worried look on your face]. Maybe they broke up.
Message 1, other approaches: I like seizetheday's "hey man, she's our friend," and thinkingwoman's "mmm-hmm" ideas.
Message 2: "hey, I don't know what the story is with you and Jane, and I don't need to, but she is a good friend of mine and I don't want her to get hurt. If I hear this shit, I'm in an awkward position. What you do is your deal, not mine, but don't put me in the middle."
I don't know if you need to say either of these things, but the truth is that you are worried for her and you do feel awkward, so you could potentially let him know.
posted by salvia at 2:07 PM on September 16, 2007
i agree this inner- outer-circle stuff sounds like cant. i mean, even real 'inner circle' professionals, kgb agents and goodfellas, rub each other out endlessly, so it seems kind of meaningless, with all due respect. call him out on keeping you awake, by all means. but surely his relationship with roe is none of your business? sub-text here is, you may be eentsy-weentsy bit jealous of him and roe.
posted by londongeezer at 2:18 PM on September 16, 2007
posted by londongeezer at 2:18 PM on September 16, 2007
Who would you rather be friends with if/when this gets out and splits your social circle in two?
posted by roger ackroyd at 3:05 PM on September 16, 2007
posted by roger ackroyd at 3:05 PM on September 16, 2007
Don't do a thing.
A friend of mine got ratted out to one GF that he had been seeing another GF. It was none of her business, he resents her for it to this day, decades later. It had no effect on the shape of anyone's future, just stirred up a lot of shit.
The trouble-maker was the mother of the girl that is now Jessica Seinfeld, so maybe she should have concentrated her efforts closer to home.
posted by StickyCarpet at 3:42 PM on September 16, 2007
A friend of mine got ratted out to one GF that he had been seeing another GF. It was none of her business, he resents her for it to this day, decades later. It had no effect on the shape of anyone's future, just stirred up a lot of shit.
The trouble-maker was the mother of the girl that is now Jessica Seinfeld, so maybe she should have concentrated her efforts closer to home.
posted by StickyCarpet at 3:42 PM on September 16, 2007
If you have a problem with John's behavior you can talk to him about it. You really can't say anything to Jane on this. If you care a about her feelings that strongly, make a play for her.
posted by RussHy at 7:09 PM on September 16, 2007
posted by RussHy at 7:09 PM on September 16, 2007
Flatmates are assumed to have discretion. Unless Jane is your sister, you have no obligations here.
posted by dhartung at 7:43 PM on September 16, 2007
posted by dhartung at 7:43 PM on September 16, 2007
I think this is a gender-segregated question. Men seem to answer this question with "Mind your own business", women tend to answer with "You should let her know." So I'm not sure you can trust either group as somehow having "the right answer"-- there are clearly agendas at work.
If you don't want to tell, but you don't want to act like everything's cool, I find it hard to believe that anyone could find fault with "Listen, John. If you're going to do something like that, I can't know about it. Because knowing about it and keeping quiet about it makes me feel like a louse. Hear what I'm saying?"
posted by thehmsbeagle at 7:52 PM on September 16, 2007
If you don't want to tell, but you don't want to act like everything's cool, I find it hard to believe that anyone could find fault with "Listen, John. If you're going to do something like that, I can't know about it. Because knowing about it and keeping quiet about it makes me feel like a louse. Hear what I'm saying?"
posted by thehmsbeagle at 7:52 PM on September 16, 2007
Here's the pragmatic answer. Don't tell her, not because of some moral reason, which you're never going to be sure about either way, but because it's in your own self-interest not to tell her.
The guy lives with you. You obviously don't live a squeaky clean life yourself. He probably has ways of making you very unhappy that extend well beyond cheating on a friend of yours.
Think about it. Is this really the biggest problem you have right now? And even if it is...wouldn't you like it to stay that way?
posted by bingo at 8:29 PM on September 16, 2007
The guy lives with you. You obviously don't live a squeaky clean life yourself. He probably has ways of making you very unhappy that extend well beyond cheating on a friend of yours.
Think about it. Is this really the biggest problem you have right now? And even if it is...wouldn't you like it to stay that way?
posted by bingo at 8:29 PM on September 16, 2007
roger ackroyd has it, supposing you work out that Jane still thinks they're dating exclusively: decide who you want to stay friends with in the long run. If it's Jane, tell her. If it's not, don't.
posted by LobsterMitten at 8:30 PM on September 16, 2007
posted by LobsterMitten at 8:30 PM on September 16, 2007
Another vote for talking to your flatmate about it, and not bringing it up with Jane.
posted by vytae at 9:08 PM on September 16, 2007
posted by vytae at 9:08 PM on September 16, 2007
Why don't you make a play for Jane, and if John doesn't like it, say "well, I heard you [that night], and I assumed things with her hadn't worked out!"
Kidding, of course; this is none of your business, at least until Jane reveals to you that she's been seeing John for x number of months exclusively, but the incident you're reporting took place more recently than the exclusivity started -- and in that case, you still don't do anything except realize that your flatmate is an ass.
posted by davejay at 9:49 PM on September 16, 2007
Kidding, of course; this is none of your business, at least until Jane reveals to you that she's been seeing John for x number of months exclusively, but the incident you're reporting took place more recently than the exclusivity started -- and in that case, you still don't do anything except realize that your flatmate is an ass.
posted by davejay at 9:49 PM on September 16, 2007
I was in this situation and I decided to spill the beans.
As soon as someone perfects time travel, that's the first mistake I'll correct in my past.
posted by MrHappyGoLucky at 11:03 PM on September 16, 2007 [1 favorite]
As soon as someone perfects time travel, that's the first mistake I'll correct in my past.
posted by MrHappyGoLucky at 11:03 PM on September 16, 2007 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Gonna stay out of it. Thanks for the advice.
posted by randomstriker at 2:29 AM on September 17, 2007
posted by randomstriker at 2:29 AM on September 17, 2007
So, uh, why you treat people not in your circle like garbage? that is some bad karma right there.
posted by citron at 8:06 AM on September 17, 2007
posted by citron at 8:06 AM on September 17, 2007
If you tell Jane, she' always associate you with the bad thing. See how you valued being called out on our bullshit. Call out your roommate. Sit him down and explain to him why you're uncomfortable with his behavior. Then shut up.
posted by theora55 at 9:48 AM on September 17, 2007
posted by theora55 at 9:48 AM on September 17, 2007
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by knapah at 12:01 PM on September 16, 2007