How do you tell creepy jerks to bugger off NOW?
November 13, 2006 12:28 PM Subscribe
CreepyGuyFilter -- my lovely wife is getting harassed and hit on (mainly at the grocery store) by different creepy guys. It is making her *very* unhappy, freaked out, and feeling dirty. What is the best approach for her to deal with this in an assertive and satisfactory way? There is...
Here is what just happened an hour ago -- she called me and told me about it:
Produce Aisle:
(After seeing this guy several times, creepily, around the grocery store, not *quite* following her, this is what happens:)
Wife: (looking at carrots, minding her business)
Creepy Old Guy: "I wonder if your husband would mind if I took *you* home with me."
Wife: "Uhhh, yeah, he would." (walks away quickly)
She is quite attractive, and dresses very modestly. She is shy, she does *not* smile/talk to strangers, especially men. (It took me months to even get her attention - lol) I love her very much for just this - her beauty, her modesty, and her stubborn streak. She just asked me "What do I say in response to these jerks at the grocery store? I want them to feel 3 inches tall!"
I (jokingly) said to go ahead and pepper spray them in the face, but that wouldn't be constructive. I don't want her to piss anybody off so she might be in danger, but this happens almost *every time* she goes to the store. It makes me very angry and worried for her. I am a dude with training in the deadly arts, but I'm at work when she goes to the store -- I feel powerless. She left the store today without all her produce because she was so freaked out. Help!
Here is what just happened an hour ago -- she called me and told me about it:
Produce Aisle:
(After seeing this guy several times, creepily, around the grocery store, not *quite* following her, this is what happens:)
Wife: (looking at carrots, minding her business)
Creepy Old Guy: "I wonder if your husband would mind if I took *you* home with me."
Wife: "Uhhh, yeah, he would." (walks away quickly)
She is quite attractive, and dresses very modestly. She is shy, she does *not* smile/talk to strangers, especially men. (It took me months to even get her attention - lol) I love her very much for just this - her beauty, her modesty, and her stubborn streak. She just asked me "What do I say in response to these jerks at the grocery store? I want them to feel 3 inches tall!"
I (jokingly) said to go ahead and pepper spray them in the face, but that wouldn't be constructive. I don't want her to piss anybody off so she might be in danger, but this happens almost *every time* she goes to the store. It makes me very angry and worried for her. I am a dude with training in the deadly arts, but I'm at work when she goes to the store -- I feel powerless. She left the store today without all her produce because she was so freaked out. Help!
Wow, does this always happen in the same store?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:37 PM on November 13, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:37 PM on November 13, 2006 [1 favorite]
Perhaps, the best approach would be for her to say - in a very questioning tone - "Really? Did you honestly think there was some way your creepy pick-up line might work? I mean, really? Are you that desperate?"
Have the pepper spray on her just in case, but it's probably just loser-ish older men who are as harmless as they're creepy. (that is, quite).
posted by JMOZ at 12:40 PM on November 13, 2006
Have the pepper spray on her just in case, but it's probably just loser-ish older men who are as harmless as they're creepy. (that is, quite).
posted by JMOZ at 12:40 PM on November 13, 2006
Response by poster: Mainly at the Publix near our house, but it happened at Walmart a couple of times too. Isn't this crazy? Assholes!
(I mean yeah she is smokin' hot but seriously)
posted by wonderwisdom at 12:42 PM on November 13, 2006
(I mean yeah she is smokin' hot but seriously)
posted by wonderwisdom at 12:42 PM on November 13, 2006
Gross, I'm so sorry for your wife. That really sucks.
When hit on by old creepy guys, I've found nothing to be more effective than completely bursting into laughter with an expression on your face that says, "are you SERIOUS?" I found out this worked pretty well when I did it without thinking - the guy's proposition was so ludicrous that all I could do was laugh and laugh. His face crumpled and I really thought he was going to cry, which would have been awesome, but ah well.
Also, I don't think there would be anything wrong with telling a store manager if a creepy old guy is creeping her out or following her around the store. I've worked in bookstores where we would kick people out because they were doing something similar.
posted by sutel at 12:43 PM on November 13, 2006 [1 favorite]
When hit on by old creepy guys, I've found nothing to be more effective than completely bursting into laughter with an expression on your face that says, "are you SERIOUS?" I found out this worked pretty well when I did it without thinking - the guy's proposition was so ludicrous that all I could do was laugh and laugh. His face crumpled and I really thought he was going to cry, which would have been awesome, but ah well.
Also, I don't think there would be anything wrong with telling a store manager if a creepy old guy is creeping her out or following her around the store. I've worked in bookstores where we would kick people out because they were doing something similar.
posted by sutel at 12:43 PM on November 13, 2006 [1 favorite]
My wife goes for the over the top, aggressive response.
For example, this guy went up to her when she was taking out the trash one day and said, "Hey baby, how's it going?" She responded by quickly saying, "You're ugly. Leave me alone. Go. I'm going to hurt your feelings. So go." The trick for her is to respond immediately and 10x as strong. Often the creepy guys are caught off guard. If they continue, she just keeps escalating.
Not everyone can do this though. Might not work if your wife is timid.
You also said you don't want her to piss anybody off, but why not? The likelihood of something happening her is slim if she appears strong. If she appears weak and unwilling to defend herself, I would think she'd be in more danger.
posted by milarepa at 12:44 PM on November 13, 2006 [1 favorite]
For example, this guy went up to her when she was taking out the trash one day and said, "Hey baby, how's it going?" She responded by quickly saying, "You're ugly. Leave me alone. Go. I'm going to hurt your feelings. So go." The trick for her is to respond immediately and 10x as strong. Often the creepy guys are caught off guard. If they continue, she just keeps escalating.
Not everyone can do this though. Might not work if your wife is timid.
You also said you don't want her to piss anybody off, but why not? The likelihood of something happening her is slim if she appears strong. If she appears weak and unwilling to defend herself, I would think she'd be in more danger.
posted by milarepa at 12:44 PM on November 13, 2006 [1 favorite]
Following up -- Didn't see the part that she's shy. If she's shy she's going to have a hard time saying that. She could report it to the manager or if there was a cop in or outside of the store, to them. That will stop one guy, but won't end it forever.
Get her some personal protection training and a personal alarm or pepper spray. She'll carry herself differently, feel more confident in herself in those situations and won't feel threatened in such a very public area. That will at least alleviate her fears for personal safety.
The other thing she could do is yell, really loud, "Could you please leave me alone, sir? You are harassing me and I am going to have to call someone!!" Embarass the fuck out of him. Make people look and notice the creepy guy.
Other than that, maybe pick a new grocery store if it keeps happening at the same one.
posted by jerseygirl at 12:47 PM on November 13, 2006
Get her some personal protection training and a personal alarm or pepper spray. She'll carry herself differently, feel more confident in herself in those situations and won't feel threatened in such a very public area. That will at least alleviate her fears for personal safety.
The other thing she could do is yell, really loud, "Could you please leave me alone, sir? You are harassing me and I am going to have to call someone!!" Embarass the fuck out of him. Make people look and notice the creepy guy.
Other than that, maybe pick a new grocery store if it keeps happening at the same one.
posted by jerseygirl at 12:47 PM on November 13, 2006
Response by poster: Yeah, the pissing off part itself is not what worries me so much as the psychos that live in Atlanta. I just want her to be safe.
posted by wonderwisdom at 12:48 PM on November 13, 2006
posted by wonderwisdom at 12:48 PM on November 13, 2006
"I don't give a *#&? what my husband would think. *You* disgust me."
Second the idea that she NEEDS to be aggressive. Tell her to take that energy she uses to be freaked out and just throw it back in their face immediately.
posted by iurodivii at 12:49 PM on November 13, 2006 [1 favorite]
Second the idea that she NEEDS to be aggressive. Tell her to take that energy she uses to be freaked out and just throw it back in their face immediately.
posted by iurodivii at 12:49 PM on November 13, 2006 [1 favorite]
And this traumatized her so much she left the store without her groceries? That is very strange.
Maybe she could grow a thicker skin?
Take a compliment where it is intended and leave the rest?
Why shouldn't she smile at/talk to strangers?
Doesn't she recognize a difference between modest and antisocial?
Could it be that between the "modesty" and the unsmilingness these guys, however misguidedly, think a minor flirty remark would be a kindness to someone who looks like she needs a lift?
But all this isn't the question you asked. If she really feels a need to lash out at these guys, she can simply say, "FUCK OFF." That works. And a way to prevent it in future? Wear a headscarf to the supermarket. I'm not being sarcastic -- it would work, and if she hates these interactions so much, maybe she'd think it was worth it.
posted by Methylviolet at 12:50 PM on November 13, 2006
Maybe she could grow a thicker skin?
Take a compliment where it is intended and leave the rest?
Why shouldn't she smile at/talk to strangers?
Doesn't she recognize a difference between modest and antisocial?
Could it be that between the "modesty" and the unsmilingness these guys, however misguidedly, think a minor flirty remark would be a kindness to someone who looks like she needs a lift?
But all this isn't the question you asked. If she really feels a need to lash out at these guys, she can simply say, "FUCK OFF." That works. And a way to prevent it in future? Wear a headscarf to the supermarket. I'm not being sarcastic -- it would work, and if she hates these interactions so much, maybe she'd think it was worth it.
posted by Methylviolet at 12:50 PM on November 13, 2006
I feel like I read somewhere (an awful way to begin an answer, I realize) that it's a specifically American thing for women to shrink in the face of harassing behavior. Maybe this was an anecdotal story, where someone went to another country, and saw women scream and yell and give guys what for, I can't remember. But I think your wife needs to be willing to cop these guys some attitude. If she sees someone following her around the store, she should stop her cart, turn around and say, somewhat rudely, it seems like you're following me, can I help you with something? And when he pulls his lame old man line, she should raise her voice and say she doesn't appreciate being treated that way, not especially by some old creepy pervy guy, and doesn't he have grandchildren, etc, etc, etc. The guy will probably be so embarrassed he'll start to move away.
On preview, exactly what milarepa said. These guys like your cute pretty wife because she looks and acts shy, cute, feminine. Once she freaks out, BOOM, she's not their little object anymore.
If she really wants to cut down on random male attention, she could cut all her hair off or otherwise change her appearance to make herself less "feminine" looking. I did (because I wanted to, not for this purpose) and was happily surprised to find the amount of street attention I received greatly diminished.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:53 PM on November 13, 2006 [1 favorite]
On preview, exactly what milarepa said. These guys like your cute pretty wife because she looks and acts shy, cute, feminine. Once she freaks out, BOOM, she's not their little object anymore.
If she really wants to cut down on random male attention, she could cut all her hair off or otherwise change her appearance to make herself less "feminine" looking. I did (because I wanted to, not for this purpose) and was happily surprised to find the amount of street attention I received greatly diminished.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:53 PM on November 13, 2006 [1 favorite]
Ignoring them completely or giving them "Oh, for fuck's sake" half eye-roll and frown if you've already made eye contact is probably the best strategy. Almost anything else can be read as encouraging the guy (not that she would be, just that those types of guys tend to take ANY response as encouragement).
Sunglasses are good for this sort of thing, though may be out of place in a supermarket.
posted by occhiblu at 12:53 PM on November 13, 2006
Sunglasses are good for this sort of thing, though may be out of place in a supermarket.
posted by occhiblu at 12:53 PM on November 13, 2006
"You're being rude and I'm trying to shop. Please go away."
Have her practice saying it with you until she feels confident doing it.
I suspect they're hitting on her in part due to her shyness, in that she seems like someone who might get flustered and upset, thus getting precisely the response the creeps want. If she can learn to shop with more of a self-confident, no-bullshit attitude (which includes being prepared to tell old men that they're being rude) it'll probably help cut down on the number of people who approach her like that.
posted by stefanie at 12:53 PM on November 13, 2006
Have her practice saying it with you until she feels confident doing it.
I suspect they're hitting on her in part due to her shyness, in that she seems like someone who might get flustered and upset, thus getting precisely the response the creeps want. If she can learn to shop with more of a self-confident, no-bullshit attitude (which includes being prepared to tell old men that they're being rude) it'll probably help cut down on the number of people who approach her like that.
posted by stefanie at 12:53 PM on November 13, 2006
And yeah, I would have to add, this happens to many, many, many women every time we go to the store. While it sucks that she has to deal with it (insert my standard "oppressive patriarchal societies suck" monlogue here), if she's letting it get to her to the point of being unable to function on a daily basis, she may need to rethink her attitude a bit. There's a difference between some guy leering or making an offhand grody comment and a truly dangerous person. If you live in an area where there are many truly dangerous people about then she *seriously* needs to up aggressive attitude; if you do not, then both you and she may need to learn to brush this sort of stuff off more.
posted by occhiblu at 1:00 PM on November 13, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by occhiblu at 1:00 PM on November 13, 2006 [1 favorite]
Packing a full squirt bottle of something like ketchup or urine might be handy thing to have, then say in a clear medium loud voice " Stop bothering me now!" and if the creep fails to back off let him have it. Be backing away and ready to find another person to stand with as he deals with it, worst case is embarrassment. No crime in squirting at a man who won't leave you alone, at least no chance of a conviction and who wants the paperwork. "Gee Officer all I did was harrass her in the store here and she peed on me"
posted by Freedomboy at 1:01 PM on November 13, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by Freedomboy at 1:01 PM on November 13, 2006 [1 favorite]
Crazy people make everybody uncomfortable. This guy is crazy. Who says that shit to people?
Your wife should fight crazy with crazy. Just start screaming obscenities, waving her arms around and run away. That should do the trick. If not, I wholly endorse *accidental* discharge of pepper-spray.
posted by i_am_a_Jedi at 1:03 PM on November 13, 2006
Your wife should fight crazy with crazy. Just start screaming obscenities, waving her arms around and run away. That should do the trick. If not, I wholly endorse *accidental* discharge of pepper-spray.
posted by i_am_a_Jedi at 1:03 PM on November 13, 2006
Have her practice saying it with you until she feels confident doing it.
Many good suggestions in thread especially this one. You might feel a bit dumb doing something role-play-y but, speaking as a woman who used to get intimidated in exactly this situation, it's valuable.
posted by gaspode at 1:05 PM on November 13, 2006
Many good suggestions in thread especially this one. You might feel a bit dumb doing something role-play-y but, speaking as a woman who used to get intimidated in exactly this situation, it's valuable.
posted by gaspode at 1:05 PM on November 13, 2006
Response by poster: Thanks everyone -- I will share this with her later tonight after work. And methylviolet -- I do appreciate the effort, just don't impugn the wifey so vehemently.
posted by wonderwisdom at 1:05 PM on November 13, 2006
posted by wonderwisdom at 1:05 PM on November 13, 2006
I'm with Methylviolet... it sounds like your wife is maybe overreacting.
The creepy old guy was "not *quite* following her"?! I mean you can't partially follow someone, either the old geezer was or wasn't... and what old geezer doesn't occasionally make silly, over the top flirtatious comments to younger women?
And this happens all the time to her? I mean the world is full of creepy guys, but unless she dresses like a hooker from a Van Halen video, they can't all be stalking your wife at Publix.
She needs to grow thicker skin, appreciate the fact that she's attractive and men will always hit on her and she needs to learn to grin and say, "FUCK YOU ASSHOLE." Oh yeah, and find a new grocery store...
posted by wfrgms at 1:06 PM on November 13, 2006
The creepy old guy was "not *quite* following her"?! I mean you can't partially follow someone, either the old geezer was or wasn't... and what old geezer doesn't occasionally make silly, over the top flirtatious comments to younger women?
And this happens all the time to her? I mean the world is full of creepy guys, but unless she dresses like a hooker from a Van Halen video, they can't all be stalking your wife at Publix.
She needs to grow thicker skin, appreciate the fact that she's attractive and men will always hit on her and she needs to learn to grin and say, "FUCK YOU ASSHOLE." Oh yeah, and find a new grocery store...
posted by wfrgms at 1:06 PM on November 13, 2006
I just ignore or roll my eyes or laugh. who really cares? it's just some random loser having a vague fantasy. it's got pretty much nothing to do with you.
if a person seems harmless / friendly enough I just nod or smile, and if I get an aggressive/creepy vibe, I have no problem being confrontational, but most of the time it is just a weird misplaced tourettic attempt at socializing for them. I just think of it like crazy preachers on the subway or other people's 2-year-olds.
posted by mdn at 1:08 PM on November 13, 2006
if a person seems harmless / friendly enough I just nod or smile, and if I get an aggressive/creepy vibe, I have no problem being confrontational, but most of the time it is just a weird misplaced tourettic attempt at socializing for them. I just think of it like crazy preachers on the subway or other people's 2-year-olds.
posted by mdn at 1:08 PM on November 13, 2006
Hey, I didn't mean to offend you, Wonder, but I do think your wife's life is going to be a misery to her until she can make some sort of peace with male interest. It really isn't that big a deal. And I did offer suggestions.
posted by Methylviolet at 1:08 PM on November 13, 2006
posted by Methylviolet at 1:08 PM on November 13, 2006
I don't know if the squirt gun filled with urine would help if used. That may end up getting her in trouble, especially if she wasn't being physically attacked. She'd be better off with licensed pepper spray.
Plus? What if that little stopper came out of the squirt gun and it leaked all over the inside of your purse? Pee purse? You'd never clean that out or be able to Febreeze it enough. And who is collecting this pee for spraying purposes? "Hand me a cup, I need to collect some pee for my squirt gun"
posted by jerseygirl at 1:08 PM on November 13, 2006
Plus? What if that little stopper came out of the squirt gun and it leaked all over the inside of your purse? Pee purse? You'd never clean that out or be able to Febreeze it enough. And who is collecting this pee for spraying purposes? "Hand me a cup, I need to collect some pee for my squirt gun"
posted by jerseygirl at 1:08 PM on November 13, 2006
Wife: (looking at carrots, minding her business)
Creepy Old Guy: "I wonder if your husband would mind if I took *you* home with me."
Wife: "I don't know, would you like to ask him?" *pulls out cell and starts dialing*
posted by tremolo1970 at 1:11 PM on November 13, 2006 [2 favorites]
Creepy Old Guy: "I wonder if your husband would mind if I took *you* home with me."
Wife: "I don't know, would you like to ask him?" *pulls out cell and starts dialing*
posted by tremolo1970 at 1:11 PM on November 13, 2006 [2 favorites]
Okay, so, its kind of weird that that keeps happening to her. Are you absolutely sure she isn't misinterpreting harmless behaviour? A man talking to a woman in the grocery store isn't de facto harrassment, but some women seem to think it is.
Assuming that what she says is true, she might want to just think about not assigning these men so much power. Their actions make THEM look creepy and weird, they don't make your wife look slutty or like or a victim. I find that if you simply change the way you think about the situation, it totally changes how you feel when it happens. She is giving them too much power.
While it can be pretty tough to suddenly yell at someone in the middle of a Publix, its not that hard to give a small chuckle and give them a look of derision. (Its the more subtle but equally effective version of sutel's "are you serious ha ha ha", above.) Or, she can call over a manager.
But, I think you and your wife need to really think about what's happening here. I get a fair amount of un-desired attention, but I myself think that to assume that every instance of that attention has nefarious or creepy intentions behind sounds a little bit over-sensititive. Usually its just someone trying to be complementary, even it if is in a quite socially awkward or inept way. I think this could be partly just a matter of perceptions?
Of course, i don't know, and I don't want to be presumptious, but its something to think about.
posted by Kololo at 1:12 PM on November 13, 2006
Assuming that what she says is true, she might want to just think about not assigning these men so much power. Their actions make THEM look creepy and weird, they don't make your wife look slutty or like or a victim. I find that if you simply change the way you think about the situation, it totally changes how you feel when it happens. She is giving them too much power.
While it can be pretty tough to suddenly yell at someone in the middle of a Publix, its not that hard to give a small chuckle and give them a look of derision. (Its the more subtle but equally effective version of sutel's "are you serious ha ha ha", above.) Or, she can call over a manager.
But, I think you and your wife need to really think about what's happening here. I get a fair amount of un-desired attention, but I myself think that to assume that every instance of that attention has nefarious or creepy intentions behind sounds a little bit over-sensititive. Usually its just someone trying to be complementary, even it if is in a quite socially awkward or inept way. I think this could be partly just a matter of perceptions?
Of course, i don't know, and I don't want to be presumptious, but its something to think about.
posted by Kololo at 1:12 PM on November 13, 2006
Response by poster: Yeah, it doesn't keep her from going to the store or anything, she is not a wilting flower... I was just looking for suggestions for dealing with it... I have some great suggestions here, and I thank you.
posted by wonderwisdom at 1:12 PM on November 13, 2006
posted by wonderwisdom at 1:12 PM on November 13, 2006
Creepy weirdos tend to be creepy weirdos regardless of what the object of their attentions is wearing. She doesn't have to look like a slut to be drawing attention. I tend to get harassed most (as opposed to just getting looked at) when I'm dressed dowdily or sloppily. It'd be nice if we could stop spreading the idea that women draw harassment on themselves because of how they dress.
And this guy hardly sounds crazy. This is exactly the sort of shit that guys say to women in public all the time. Again, not to say that she shouldn't do anything, just that some of the over-the-top responses here (which I'm guessing are coming from men) don't seem to understand how completely every-day common this sort of thing is.
posted by occhiblu at 1:12 PM on November 13, 2006
And this guy hardly sounds crazy. This is exactly the sort of shit that guys say to women in public all the time. Again, not to say that she shouldn't do anything, just that some of the over-the-top responses here (which I'm guessing are coming from men) don't seem to understand how completely every-day common this sort of thing is.
posted by occhiblu at 1:12 PM on November 13, 2006
Response by poster: Methyl, I overreacted in my frustration. Thanks for the feedback.
posted by wonderwisdom at 1:15 PM on November 13, 2006
posted by wonderwisdom at 1:15 PM on November 13, 2006
Wow, I was really surprised (but not really) as I immediately thought of Atlanta while I was reading the OP. I moved down here from Boston about 5 months ago and have been taken aback by the number of creepy guys I've encountered. Boston had plenty of creepy guys, but I just seem to bump into more down here. Tell you wife to practice a response. I particularly like stefanie's "You're being rude and I'm trying to shop. Please go away." Tell her to practice looking the creeps in the eye when she says it. It will be hard, but the first time she is able to muster the courage it will boost her confidence.
posted by Constant Reader at 1:15 PM on November 13, 2006
posted by Constant Reader at 1:15 PM on November 13, 2006
This has happened to me, and I too am shy and non-confrontational. I walked directly to the nearest employee, told them that this guy was following me around and was freaking me out, and asked if they happened to know if he was a regular shopper or what. The employee went over to the guy, and asked if he could help him, started talking about what's in season (why does this always happen in the produce section?), etc. Basically, he kept creepy guy busy so I could get my stuff and get out of there. I don't usually let the bag boys help me out to the car, but that time I did. After that, I made a point to chat and get to know all of the store's employees (I go at the same time on the same day every week, so I see the same people). If I notice someone who doesn't seem right, I'll wander over to the meat counter and start chatting with the butcher or otherwise make myself unapproachable. Usually these weirdos give up when they see that I am friendly with the store employees.
posted by deedeep at 1:16 PM on November 13, 2006
posted by deedeep at 1:16 PM on November 13, 2006
When sketchy guys approach/try to talk to me, I say "Get the fuck away from me. Right. NOW."
I say it loudly, in a stern, don't-fucking-mess-with-me voice.
It's simple, to the point, and has enough force/volume to attract enough attention from passers-by so that Sketchy Guy feels embarrassed and slinks away.
posted by hazelshade at 1:27 PM on November 13, 2006 [1 favorite]
I say it loudly, in a stern, don't-fucking-mess-with-me voice.
It's simple, to the point, and has enough force/volume to attract enough attention from passers-by so that Sketchy Guy feels embarrassed and slinks away.
posted by hazelshade at 1:27 PM on November 13, 2006 [1 favorite]
Occhiblu makes a good point about getting harrassed most when she's dressed sloppily; I've noticed the same thing. This is because creepy men harrass women who look like they will let them get away with it. Women who look confident and strong and intimidating don't get harrassed.
Usually its just a matter of the whole "head high, chin up, shoulders back' thing, and of making eye contact first, and on your own terms.
Preventing it is probably better than dealing with it.
posted by Kololo at 1:31 PM on November 13, 2006
Usually its just a matter of the whole "head high, chin up, shoulders back' thing, and of making eye contact first, and on your own terms.
Preventing it is probably better than dealing with it.
posted by Kololo at 1:31 PM on November 13, 2006
What occhiblu and mdn said. In the summer no matter what I'm wearing I get hit on pretty much once every block; even in the winter in the middle of the night I can't leave the house to get orange juice from the corner deli without getting hit on at least once. This happens to me every single day of my life. I'm a pretty girl, it's how things are, for better or worse.
The absolute worst thing your wife can do is look like she's flustered or talk back, because that's what exactly what creepy jerks want, to know that they've gotten under her skin, that they've gotten a rise out of her. Talking smack back to jerks is NOT fighting back at all (the way people have suggested in this thread) if you're actually giving them what they want.
The absolute best thing she can do is learn to let it slide off her back. That can mean rolling her eyes, giving them a condescending look, or just pretending she didn't hear anything. She needs to grow thicker skin and stop caring about what people she doesn't know or want to know think about her or say to her; they're not people who matter.
No crime in squirting at a man who won't leave you alone, at least no chance of a conviction and who wants the paperwork. "Gee Officer all I did was harrass her in the store here and she peed on me"
Grossness aside, Freedomboy's advice is both horrifically bad and wrong—many states have laws against assault with bodily fluids. Do not follow this.
posted by lia at 1:36 PM on November 13, 2006
The absolute worst thing your wife can do is look like she's flustered or talk back, because that's what exactly what creepy jerks want, to know that they've gotten under her skin, that they've gotten a rise out of her. Talking smack back to jerks is NOT fighting back at all (the way people have suggested in this thread) if you're actually giving them what they want.
The absolute best thing she can do is learn to let it slide off her back. That can mean rolling her eyes, giving them a condescending look, or just pretending she didn't hear anything. She needs to grow thicker skin and stop caring about what people she doesn't know or want to know think about her or say to her; they're not people who matter.
No crime in squirting at a man who won't leave you alone, at least no chance of a conviction and who wants the paperwork. "Gee Officer all I did was harrass her in the store here and she peed on me"
Grossness aside, Freedomboy's advice is both horrifically bad and wrong—many states have laws against assault with bodily fluids. Do not follow this.
posted by lia at 1:36 PM on November 13, 2006
Women who look confident and strong and intimidating don't get harrassed.
Well, I wouldn't go that far either. My point is that the problem is not that women are dressing a certain way, or acting a certain way, or not acting a certain way; the problem is that creeps are being creepy. That's where the blame lies, with the guys doing this sort of shit.
Which, again, doesn't mean that she shouldn't act confident, because it is likely to help a little bit (even if just her state of mind), but she shouldn't blame herself for not acting confident enough if she continues to get harassed, if you see my point. Assholes are going to act like assholes regardless of what she does, and she's likely to come across the occasionaly asshole, and she should have skills in place for dealing with them, but the fact that the asshole is being an asshole in her vicinity is not really her fault.
posted by occhiblu at 1:38 PM on November 13, 2006 [2 favorites]
Well, I wouldn't go that far either. My point is that the problem is not that women are dressing a certain way, or acting a certain way, or not acting a certain way; the problem is that creeps are being creepy. That's where the blame lies, with the guys doing this sort of shit.
Which, again, doesn't mean that she shouldn't act confident, because it is likely to help a little bit (even if just her state of mind), but she shouldn't blame herself for not acting confident enough if she continues to get harassed, if you see my point. Assholes are going to act like assholes regardless of what she does, and she's likely to come across the occasionaly asshole, and she should have skills in place for dealing with them, but the fact that the asshole is being an asshole in her vicinity is not really her fault.
posted by occhiblu at 1:38 PM on November 13, 2006 [2 favorites]
I've just always viewed these guys not so much creepy as kind of pathetically socially retarded. They probably read somewhere that the grocery store is a great place to pick up women. And how many times have AskMe questions about meeting girls been answered by the suggestion to hit on as many women as possible? Unless the guy is being extremely forceful or vulgar, a polite rebuff should be sufficient.
posted by jrossi4r at 1:39 PM on November 13, 2006
posted by jrossi4r at 1:39 PM on November 13, 2006
You have gotten some good advice in this thread and some I would view as being WAY over the top, so as a woman who is also somewhat shy and reserved and faces this sort of thing every time I go grocery shopping, I thought I'd weigh in also.
I think she reacted perfectly in the example you gave. Then all she has to do is continue with her shopping. Pepper spray, squirting with other liquids, screaming, acting like a crazy person? That would be complete overkill and a massive overreaction to someone flirting with you. I mean, there you are in a public store surrounded by other shoppers and employees. What is he going to do, rape you right there by the carrots? Reacting overly aggressively, or insanely as some people have suggested is more likely to get your wife removed from the store than the guy with the corny line.
Even getting upset by it is an overreaction. Guys flirt with girls they find attractive in some way. Sometimes guys will say flirty or corny things to girls just to make conversation if they happen to be standing close to an attractive woman (older guys especially), say looking at carrots at the same time ... or they are nervous about the closeness and think they need to say something, so they say something dumb. Really, I have heard all manner of stupid things come out of guys' mouths while shopping. I respond to all of them pretty much the same way ... a standard "Thank you, but no" sort of response ... and then I go about my business. I have never, in the 15 years of grocery shopping on my own, ever had one of them pursue me further. Hell, even my elderly mom gets flirted with at the grocery store, and she responds the same way I do ... thank you, but no, and that's the end of it.
There's really no need to be rude or crude if they are saying things like your example. Not every guy that says something to her is creepy or dangerous. I'd be willing to bet that most of them are just lonely single guys who find her attractive. If you read any modern men's or women's magazines, they all say the grocery store is a great place to meet and pick up the opposite sex. Seeing as three of my friends have met their current spouses in produce departments, there seems to be some truth to that. The only time any sort of response beyond that presented in your example would be called for is if the guy is actually following her around the store (not sort of, I mean she tries to lose him and he's right on her tail) or saying outright crude and obscene things to her, in which case speaking to any store employee about it is the best course of action, not making a huge scene involving pepper spray.
Sorry this got long, but I was a little disturbed by some of the extreme responses people were suggesting and the fact that you and your wife are viewing all these guys as being creepy, when this can hardly be the case. If you live in an area where the majority of men you might bump into are rapists and murderers, then maybe you should move. The older ones are lonely (and they have the corniest lines sometimes) and the younger ones have read one too many articles telling them they can meet Mrs. Right in the produce department. The lot of them are harmless, especially in such a public setting.
posted by Orb at 1:52 PM on November 13, 2006 [4 favorites]
I think she reacted perfectly in the example you gave. Then all she has to do is continue with her shopping. Pepper spray, squirting with other liquids, screaming, acting like a crazy person? That would be complete overkill and a massive overreaction to someone flirting with you. I mean, there you are in a public store surrounded by other shoppers and employees. What is he going to do, rape you right there by the carrots? Reacting overly aggressively, or insanely as some people have suggested is more likely to get your wife removed from the store than the guy with the corny line.
Even getting upset by it is an overreaction. Guys flirt with girls they find attractive in some way. Sometimes guys will say flirty or corny things to girls just to make conversation if they happen to be standing close to an attractive woman (older guys especially), say looking at carrots at the same time ... or they are nervous about the closeness and think they need to say something, so they say something dumb. Really, I have heard all manner of stupid things come out of guys' mouths while shopping. I respond to all of them pretty much the same way ... a standard "Thank you, but no" sort of response ... and then I go about my business. I have never, in the 15 years of grocery shopping on my own, ever had one of them pursue me further. Hell, even my elderly mom gets flirted with at the grocery store, and she responds the same way I do ... thank you, but no, and that's the end of it.
There's really no need to be rude or crude if they are saying things like your example. Not every guy that says something to her is creepy or dangerous. I'd be willing to bet that most of them are just lonely single guys who find her attractive. If you read any modern men's or women's magazines, they all say the grocery store is a great place to meet and pick up the opposite sex. Seeing as three of my friends have met their current spouses in produce departments, there seems to be some truth to that. The only time any sort of response beyond that presented in your example would be called for is if the guy is actually following her around the store (not sort of, I mean she tries to lose him and he's right on her tail) or saying outright crude and obscene things to her, in which case speaking to any store employee about it is the best course of action, not making a huge scene involving pepper spray.
Sorry this got long, but I was a little disturbed by some of the extreme responses people were suggesting and the fact that you and your wife are viewing all these guys as being creepy, when this can hardly be the case. If you live in an area where the majority of men you might bump into are rapists and murderers, then maybe you should move. The older ones are lonely (and they have the corniest lines sometimes) and the younger ones have read one too many articles telling them they can meet Mrs. Right in the produce department. The lot of them are harmless, especially in such a public setting.
posted by Orb at 1:52 PM on November 13, 2006 [4 favorites]
>They probably read somewhere that the grocery store is a great place to pick up women.
I think there might be something in this. People do put that sort of dumb advice in "how to flirt" columns and the like.
Much more specifically, in Australia at least there are designated "singles" supermarket nights. Not officially designated of course, but it's common knowledge that certain branches of Woolworths, on a Wednesday night, are a good place to hook up. (Neutral Bay -- have bananas in your trolley. The idea might have started in the gay scene in San Francisco? I'm a bit hazy on the origins.) Anyway, there's stuff in the papers and on trashy talkback radio about it, so, it's a long shot, but perhaps some kind of phenomenon like that is happening in your area?
Or perhaps there's some actual flirting class being taught in a nearby Adult Education place and the teacher takes them out for field trips? It's an even longer shot but possible. I've seen classes like that on TV.
Am I subconsciously searching for explanations that don't come down to "guys are just assholes"? Maybe.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 2:06 PM on November 13, 2006
I think there might be something in this. People do put that sort of dumb advice in "how to flirt" columns and the like.
Much more specifically, in Australia at least there are designated "singles" supermarket nights. Not officially designated of course, but it's common knowledge that certain branches of Woolworths, on a Wednesday night, are a good place to hook up. (Neutral Bay -- have bananas in your trolley. The idea might have started in the gay scene in San Francisco? I'm a bit hazy on the origins.) Anyway, there's stuff in the papers and on trashy talkback radio about it, so, it's a long shot, but perhaps some kind of phenomenon like that is happening in your area?
Or perhaps there's some actual flirting class being taught in a nearby Adult Education place and the teacher takes them out for field trips? It's an even longer shot but possible. I've seen classes like that on TV.
Am I subconsciously searching for explanations that don't come down to "guys are just assholes"? Maybe.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 2:06 PM on November 13, 2006
First of all, I'm sorry that you (both) have to deal with this. It is upsetting and can be frightening. And she's lucky that you're so concerned for her happiness and safety.
That said, I agree with occhiblu and Kololo. This is not at all rare, unfortunately. I have noticed some variation depending on which city I live in & which part of the city I'm in, but the fact is, this happens to women all the time. I can't possibly count the number of times these kinds of incidents - and much worse - have happened to me in my life.
However, I highly doubt that it happens as frequently as you say. Every time she goes to the store (but only the store?)? Either she must go infrequently, or there's something seriously wrong with that store. I get the impression that you think that your wife is so incredibly desirable that she is a special magnet for perverted men. While that's cute, and I'm sure she's beautiful, it's probably untrue unless she's Halle Berry. I get a lot of attention, and I have some very beautiful, sexy friends, and none of them have reported more than the occasional harassment - not an every day thing. I'm thinking that either you're very worked about this and so you're (or your wife) exaggerating the frequency of it, or your wife is extremely thin-skinned about this kind of thing and is imagining incidents or blowing little things out of proportion.
The reason I say this is not to impugn you or your wife. The reason is that I think it's helpful to look objectively at what's happening and figure out a way to deal. In this situation, you can't change the world - you can only change how you respond to the world. I have a similar problem, in that I take the bus in an area of town that seems to be full of homeless & disturbed individuals (run down party scene). I have had lots of incidents (and by that I mean 5 in the past year), and I take the bus very early in the morning. When those incidents happen, I get furious and scared and very unhappy. I've called the cops twice because I have been absolutely petrified of serious harm. But I have to take the bus, and I live where I live, so I have tried to deal with the situation in the best possible way.
What I do is I try hard to remember that I have been harassed (and groped once on a crowded bus, gross), but I have not been hurt. (Sticks & stones.) I try to accept the reality that these things will happen if I am out in the world, and as I want to continue to be out in the world, I need to cope. I try to vary my routine as much as possible. I try to be aware of my surroundings (don't listen to music while I wait for the bus) and I carry mace. I call the cops when I think the person is a threat to me or others. (One person exposed himself to me in a neighborhood with lots of kids, another screamed violent, vulgar threats at me in an elevator - I called the cops on both of them.) I am working on reacting powerfully and with dignity as opposed to my instinctual, ridiculously polite response. (For your wife, I like the simple "You're being rude and I'm trying to shop. Please go away" mentioned by Stefanie. I’d get rid of the “please.”)
It's important that she feel confident. There is absolutely no reason why this should make her feel dirty. She should feel angry. And hopefully, if she figures out a good way to respond, she'll end up feeling empowered when these things happen. If self-defense classes help her feel powerful, then that’s worth it. What she absolutely should not do, is retreat from the world (literally by staying home, or psychologically by shying away from people and experiences).
posted by Amizu at 2:11 PM on November 13, 2006
That said, I agree with occhiblu and Kololo. This is not at all rare, unfortunately. I have noticed some variation depending on which city I live in & which part of the city I'm in, but the fact is, this happens to women all the time. I can't possibly count the number of times these kinds of incidents - and much worse - have happened to me in my life.
However, I highly doubt that it happens as frequently as you say. Every time she goes to the store (but only the store?)? Either she must go infrequently, or there's something seriously wrong with that store. I get the impression that you think that your wife is so incredibly desirable that she is a special magnet for perverted men. While that's cute, and I'm sure she's beautiful, it's probably untrue unless she's Halle Berry. I get a lot of attention, and I have some very beautiful, sexy friends, and none of them have reported more than the occasional harassment - not an every day thing. I'm thinking that either you're very worked about this and so you're (or your wife) exaggerating the frequency of it, or your wife is extremely thin-skinned about this kind of thing and is imagining incidents or blowing little things out of proportion.
The reason I say this is not to impugn you or your wife. The reason is that I think it's helpful to look objectively at what's happening and figure out a way to deal. In this situation, you can't change the world - you can only change how you respond to the world. I have a similar problem, in that I take the bus in an area of town that seems to be full of homeless & disturbed individuals (run down party scene). I have had lots of incidents (and by that I mean 5 in the past year), and I take the bus very early in the morning. When those incidents happen, I get furious and scared and very unhappy. I've called the cops twice because I have been absolutely petrified of serious harm. But I have to take the bus, and I live where I live, so I have tried to deal with the situation in the best possible way.
What I do is I try hard to remember that I have been harassed (and groped once on a crowded bus, gross), but I have not been hurt. (Sticks & stones.) I try to accept the reality that these things will happen if I am out in the world, and as I want to continue to be out in the world, I need to cope. I try to vary my routine as much as possible. I try to be aware of my surroundings (don't listen to music while I wait for the bus) and I carry mace. I call the cops when I think the person is a threat to me or others. (One person exposed himself to me in a neighborhood with lots of kids, another screamed violent, vulgar threats at me in an elevator - I called the cops on both of them.) I am working on reacting powerfully and with dignity as opposed to my instinctual, ridiculously polite response. (For your wife, I like the simple "You're being rude and I'm trying to shop. Please go away" mentioned by Stefanie. I’d get rid of the “please.”)
It's important that she feel confident. There is absolutely no reason why this should make her feel dirty. She should feel angry. And hopefully, if she figures out a good way to respond, she'll end up feeling empowered when these things happen. If self-defense classes help her feel powerful, then that’s worth it. What she absolutely should not do, is retreat from the world (literally by staying home, or psychologically by shying away from people and experiences).
posted by Amizu at 2:11 PM on November 13, 2006
I live in the ATL too and when I first moved here this very thing happened to me a lot (I was from a small town so this behavior really freaked me out) now it happens very rarely. The only thing that changed was my confidence level and the fact that I no longer make as much eye contact. I still hold my head up and I am aware of my surroundings at all times but I do not make eye contact with random men, for some ungodly reason they seem to take that as a version of hey baby hit on me now. My advice for your wife would be to practice looking confident and strong, head up shoulders back and walking with purpose but look past people instead of at people and don't even acknowledge these jerks, act as if they are so low below you they don't even merit a response, they may call you a bitch occasionally but that means you got to them.
posted by estronaut at 2:16 PM on November 13, 2006
posted by estronaut at 2:16 PM on November 13, 2006
The absolute worst thing your wife can do is look like she's flustered or talk back.
I think that's quite true for just flirtatious or friendly comments - and those can happen several times a day - but not true for genuinely harassing comments. I would rate this carrot comment as somewhere in between, depending on the tone of voice, his proximity to her, his body language, etc.
I agree with Orb too. Although I tend to ascribe a negative intent (at the very least, they seem to want to make me uncomfortable) probably a lot of those flirtatious/friendly comments are meant for fun. Now when a guy asked me who my GYN was, bc he'd like to trade places, that was just gross.
posted by Amizu at 2:21 PM on November 13, 2006
I think that's quite true for just flirtatious or friendly comments - and those can happen several times a day - but not true for genuinely harassing comments. I would rate this carrot comment as somewhere in between, depending on the tone of voice, his proximity to her, his body language, etc.
I agree with Orb too. Although I tend to ascribe a negative intent (at the very least, they seem to want to make me uncomfortable) probably a lot of those flirtatious/friendly comments are meant for fun. Now when a guy asked me who my GYN was, bc he'd like to trade places, that was just gross.
posted by Amizu at 2:21 PM on November 13, 2006
Hey, I didn't mean to offend you, Wonder, but I do think your wife's life is going to be a misery to her until she can make some sort of peace with male interest. It really isn't that big a deal.
Isn't that big a deal? Someone harassing you repeatedly in the supermarket is indeed a big deal. Spoken by someone who doesn't get constant male interest. It CAN be a VERY big deal. Annoying, sometimes threatening, almost always unwanted.
She does need to learn to be assertive with these assholes. I am sympathetic to the shyness, but there are certain things that can NOT be tolerated, and this is one of them. If a polite "Leave me alone" doesn't work, have her say it again in a louder voice. And louder the next time. Rinse and repeat.
Of course, I just go with the "Get the FUCK away from me." If she's in a public place, you can't go wrong. And yes, if it's the same guy over and over, tell management.
What's with all the noise and bad suggestions on this thread?
Good luck, tell your wife I understand and that it totally sucks. But she can do it! A class in self-defense usually includes some assertiveness training and might help her feel better as well.
posted by agregoli at 2:27 PM on November 13, 2006
Isn't that big a deal? Someone harassing you repeatedly in the supermarket is indeed a big deal. Spoken by someone who doesn't get constant male interest. It CAN be a VERY big deal. Annoying, sometimes threatening, almost always unwanted.
She does need to learn to be assertive with these assholes. I am sympathetic to the shyness, but there are certain things that can NOT be tolerated, and this is one of them. If a polite "Leave me alone" doesn't work, have her say it again in a louder voice. And louder the next time. Rinse and repeat.
Of course, I just go with the "Get the FUCK away from me." If she's in a public place, you can't go wrong. And yes, if it's the same guy over and over, tell management.
What's with all the noise and bad suggestions on this thread?
Good luck, tell your wife I understand and that it totally sucks. But she can do it! A class in self-defense usually includes some assertiveness training and might help her feel better as well.
posted by agregoli at 2:27 PM on November 13, 2006
It's very sad but kind of a universal fact: guys will hit on women and creepy guys will hit on women in creepy ways. Either because they're retards & they think they'll get results that way or because they get off on getting any kind of reaction at all, like embarrassed, flustered or upset. The only thing to do (other than stop being hot ;)) is not give them what they want. Easier said than done, I know, especially if you're not assertive. It took me most of my 20s to stop being rattled by that kind of shit. But really, it's attitude, there is NO reason in the world your wife should feel 'dirty' or like it's her fault somehow, they're just creeps. Scorn is really the most effective response, ranging from just ignoring them & not acknowledging them at all to laughing at them to telling them to leave you alone or you'll call security, depending on the level of inappropriatness/aggression. Don't give them the power of making you feel bad. Making a huge scene or letting them see they're getting to you in any way is not a good solution. Really, it's not a big deal, it's just life, gross but not uncommon at all.
posted by octavia at 2:27 PM on November 13, 2006
posted by octavia at 2:27 PM on November 13, 2006
"You're being rude and I'm trying to shop. Please go away."
posted by stefanie at 3:53 PM EST on November 13
I like this best, too. Doesn't force her to act out of character or overreact like a crazy person.
Nthing that she should not feel dirty, though. Mildly annoyed, sure. If some guy tries to argue, I'll give her "pissed off." But dirty? She's letting these guys get to her waaay too much.
posted by desuetude at 2:32 PM on November 13, 2006
posted by stefanie at 3:53 PM EST on November 13
I like this best, too. Doesn't force her to act out of character or overreact like a crazy person.
Nthing that she should not feel dirty, though. Mildly annoyed, sure. If some guy tries to argue, I'll give her "pissed off." But dirty? She's letting these guys get to her waaay too much.
posted by desuetude at 2:32 PM on November 13, 2006
Hmm. Your wife is "smokin' hot" and yet she has never had to deal with this before? That doesn't sound quite right. Which leads me to wonder what's up with you here. I realize she asked you what to do, but why now?
Why don't you go shopping with her for a while. Maybe she's trying to tell *you* something.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:33 PM on November 13, 2006
Why don't you go shopping with her for a while. Maybe she's trying to tell *you* something.
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:33 PM on November 13, 2006
I had a female friend suggest approaching women in grocery stores once as a way to get more dates. I think I'm glad I ignored that advice...
posted by InfidelZombie at 2:33 PM on November 13, 2006
posted by InfidelZombie at 2:33 PM on November 13, 2006
Same thing happened to me a couple of years ago. This creepy (yet seemingly harmless) guy on my block kept hitting on my wife. I told her to ignore him and after it didn't stop I confronted him, asked him why he never says hello to me when I walk by. He had no answer. I told him the next time he has something to say to my wife it goes through me (insert friendly cold stare). Problem solved, he never spoke, nor looked at her again - yet I did have problems for the next two years with someone messing with my car that I assumed was his passive form of payback. But dude, it's your wife, maybe it's just the Brooklyn in me but NO ONE fucks with your wife, even just a little bit.
posted by any major dude at 2:38 PM on November 13, 2006
posted by any major dude at 2:38 PM on November 13, 2006
She could do what I do, wear an Ipod while shopping. Then you can't even hear the fools.
posted by Kloryne at 2:44 PM on November 13, 2006
posted by Kloryne at 2:44 PM on November 13, 2006
milarepa's advice is right on. A tip: practice in front of the bathroom mirror at home, that way she's said it all before and can be quick/assertive.
FWIW, I've found "pencil dick" to be a particularly effective insult.
posted by 10ch at 2:52 PM on November 13, 2006
FWIW, I've found "pencil dick" to be a particularly effective insult.
posted by 10ch at 2:52 PM on November 13, 2006
Sounds like your wife could use some physical training: self-defense or martial arts -- something that trains both muscles and reflexes. Not that I think she should be clobbering the pervs in the produce aisle, they're probably not actually out to harm her.
But ultimately, this is about her perception more than anything else, and she probably fears for her physical safety on some level. If she knew how to defend herself, she would probably find verbal advances less threatening. Besides, training is just good for you. And fear really isn't.
If she doesn't already know what she would do if she were attacked, if she doesn't know without a doubt that she could physically harm an attacker in self defense, then she needs to learn. Chances are she'll never need to use these skills, but "acting confident" is never as convincing or as helpful as being confident is.
She might have fun in the classes, and she might even learn to relax long enough to really evaluate who's just crazy, and who's crazy and dangerous.
Incidentally, I'd be willing to bet your wife didn't grow up with a brother around her age. I've found that women with brothers tend to have more experience with both taunting and physical fighting, and we can more easily spot an opponent's weaknesses and openings. We're also (generally) less reserved about hitting people. If my brother's reading this: thanks!
posted by nadise at 2:52 PM on November 13, 2006
But ultimately, this is about her perception more than anything else, and she probably fears for her physical safety on some level. If she knew how to defend herself, she would probably find verbal advances less threatening. Besides, training is just good for you. And fear really isn't.
If she doesn't already know what she would do if she were attacked, if she doesn't know without a doubt that she could physically harm an attacker in self defense, then she needs to learn. Chances are she'll never need to use these skills, but "acting confident" is never as convincing or as helpful as being confident is.
She might have fun in the classes, and she might even learn to relax long enough to really evaluate who's just crazy, and who's crazy and dangerous.
Incidentally, I'd be willing to bet your wife didn't grow up with a brother around her age. I've found that women with brothers tend to have more experience with both taunting and physical fighting, and we can more easily spot an opponent's weaknesses and openings. We're also (generally) less reserved about hitting people. If my brother's reading this: thanks!
posted by nadise at 2:52 PM on November 13, 2006
Seconding Kloryne. Get her an ipod or even just a walkman with a good-quality, clearly visible set of external headphones. So long as she's already in the habit of not making eye contact, it's going to take one truly aggressive weirdo, not your standard passive-aggressive variety, to get in her face. If some guy she doesn't like the vibe of gestures to ask her to remove her earphones so she can hear him, have a standard line ready to be used *while keeping the headphones on and turning away,* so he's out of her line of vision: "I'm busy. Go ask someone else."
That said, caution her that earphones are not meant to be zoned out to in places where you truly do not feel safe. In other words, if you get the feeling you're genuinely being followed in the grocery store, get a bagger to help you carry your stuff out to the car, and/or stop off in the manager's office to report your suspicions and ask to be escorted to your car in the lot.
posted by clever sheep at 2:52 PM on November 13, 2006
That said, caution her that earphones are not meant to be zoned out to in places where you truly do not feel safe. In other words, if you get the feeling you're genuinely being followed in the grocery store, get a bagger to help you carry your stuff out to the car, and/or stop off in the manager's office to report your suspicions and ask to be escorted to your car in the lot.
posted by clever sheep at 2:52 PM on November 13, 2006
You said she dresses "conservatively", but is she dressed nicely/look well put-together? I used to get a lot of unwelcome comments at the grocery store, too, but ever since I started shopping in my ugly pajamas/gym clothes, it has stopped. I'm sure someone will come along and say that changing your mode of dress is letting the terrorists win, but I don't really see the downside to dressing extra-comfortably and getting absolutely no catcalls in the Publix parking lot.
As for dealing with comments when they happen, if she is shy (like me), the easiest thing is to snort, laugh, and walk away. I was once getting my oil changed, and the mechanic asked me, "Weren't you in last month's Playboy?" An eyeroll and frown accompanied by "ummm... no. Were you?" made him shut up and leave me alone, even though I was a quasi-captive "victim" for the next 15 minutes. Pepper spray was unnecessary.
posted by gatorae at 2:52 PM on November 13, 2006
As for dealing with comments when they happen, if she is shy (like me), the easiest thing is to snort, laugh, and walk away. I was once getting my oil changed, and the mechanic asked me, "Weren't you in last month's Playboy?" An eyeroll and frown accompanied by "ummm... no. Were you?" made him shut up and leave me alone, even though I was a quasi-captive "victim" for the next 15 minutes. Pepper spray was unnecessary.
posted by gatorae at 2:52 PM on November 13, 2006
The other thing she could do is yell, really loud, "Could you please leave me alone, sir? You are harassing me and I am going to have to call someone!!" Embarass the fuck out of him. Make people look and notice the creepy guy.
I did something similar when a regular begger kept harrasing everyone one at the train station for money. He was getting really pissed off that not one sorry commuter would give him any cash. I heard him mutter under his breath that he was going to steal from someone soon just after I'd turned him down. After a quick moment of risk assessment I shouted 'Did I really hear that you were going to steal from someone?!' Everyone turned round and stared at this guy in such disgust that he buggered off rather sharply!
I loved that moment, even though I normally avoid confrontation and he's never approached me since. So, I'm guessing that embarrassment tactic could work rather well for your wife too.
posted by floanna at 2:56 PM on November 13, 2006
I did something similar when a regular begger kept harrasing everyone one at the train station for money. He was getting really pissed off that not one sorry commuter would give him any cash. I heard him mutter under his breath that he was going to steal from someone soon just after I'd turned him down. After a quick moment of risk assessment I shouted 'Did I really hear that you were going to steal from someone?!' Everyone turned round and stared at this guy in such disgust that he buggered off rather sharply!
I loved that moment, even though I normally avoid confrontation and he's never approached me since. So, I'm guessing that embarrassment tactic could work rather well for your wife too.
posted by floanna at 2:56 PM on November 13, 2006
It's the South-how about a firm "I BEG YOUR PARDON?" delivered with an icy glare? I'm a big fan of icy glares, myself.
Guys, this is not uncommon for women to deal with. Even at my age (almost 48) I have had to deal with unwanted male attention. And I am no model either.
posted by konolia at 3:15 PM on November 13, 2006 [2 favorites]
Guys, this is not uncommon for women to deal with. Even at my age (almost 48) I have had to deal with unwanted male attention. And I am no model either.
posted by konolia at 3:15 PM on November 13, 2006 [2 favorites]
It is making her *very* unhappy, freaked out, and feeling dirty.
No one can make anyone feel a certain way without their permission. I'm sorry your wife has to deal with this, but she needs to develop some thicker armor and be able to present herself. I'm willing to bet that these guys are going on a predatory instinct and see her as an easy mark, based solely on how she carries herself. Being able to carry herself in not such a shy fashion would probably help a lot.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:17 PM on November 13, 2006
No one can make anyone feel a certain way without their permission. I'm sorry your wife has to deal with this, but she needs to develop some thicker armor and be able to present herself. I'm willing to bet that these guys are going on a predatory instinct and see her as an easy mark, based solely on how she carries herself. Being able to carry herself in not such a shy fashion would probably help a lot.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:17 PM on November 13, 2006
She should give a look of mild-to-severe disgust and turn away. If the person persists, she should seek the manager of the store.
posted by callmejay at 3:19 PM on November 13, 2006
posted by callmejay at 3:19 PM on November 13, 2006
Having been verbally assaulted* on the street while with a friend on a Sunday morning in DC, my friend (a DC resident) said calmly, "Thank you for your opinion. I am now calling the cops." And she took out her cell phone, dialed 911 and did just that. The guy didn't leave until he heard her speaking with the 911 operator.
I encourage your wife to do the same... Have her phone handy, and if she feels threatened, she needs to call someone -- you, 911, a friend, whoever.
I disagree with those that say she needs to go to a different store to shop. No creep should have that much power over her.
* Seriously, the guy came over to us and started yelling at us, calling us "f&*king lesbians" and so forth, saying "f&*k you" to us in a very threatening manner.
posted by parilous at 3:36 PM on November 13, 2006
I encourage your wife to do the same... Have her phone handy, and if she feels threatened, she needs to call someone -- you, 911, a friend, whoever.
I disagree with those that say she needs to go to a different store to shop. No creep should have that much power over her.
* Seriously, the guy came over to us and started yelling at us, calling us "f&*king lesbians" and so forth, saying "f&*k you" to us in a very threatening manner.
posted by parilous at 3:36 PM on November 13, 2006
Get her to say she has a boyfriend/girlfriend/husband/wife/dude trained in deadly arts and that she is not really interested in going anywhere. Mind you, some guys are obtuse to hints. It's the hunting instinct, twisted into some kind of crappy stalker impulse.
posted by meehawl at 3:36 PM on November 13, 2006
posted by meehawl at 3:36 PM on November 13, 2006
I would be a bit concerned for her safety here. If this dirtbag stalked her throughout the store, then there's no telling what else he may be willing to do.
Witty retorts are fine, but your pepper spray suggestion should be less of a joke. Arm your wife. Every woman should know how to throw a good punch.
posted by EatTheWeek at 3:45 PM on November 13, 2006
Witty retorts are fine, but your pepper spray suggestion should be less of a joke. Arm your wife. Every woman should know how to throw a good punch.
posted by EatTheWeek at 3:45 PM on November 13, 2006
If she hits him in the bridge of the nose, with the flat of her palm, at an upward angle, it can push that boney cartilage piece into the brain and death can ensue. That should get the message across.
posted by vito90 at 3:47 PM on November 13, 2006
posted by vito90 at 3:47 PM on November 13, 2006
Tell her to gain like 20 lbs. Totally worked for me.
But seriously, a sharp tongue does wonders. Whenever I need to whip this out I just set my jaw and say whatever is handy. I bet your pardon is hilarious! I enjoy "Do I know you?" emphasizing the "I", as if "I" am so very above "you".
posted by shownomercy at 3:48 PM on November 13, 2006
But seriously, a sharp tongue does wonders. Whenever I need to whip this out I just set my jaw and say whatever is handy. I bet your pardon is hilarious! I enjoy "Do I know you?" emphasizing the "I", as if "I" am so very above "you".
posted by shownomercy at 3:48 PM on November 13, 2006
Thanks are due to 23skidoo for bringing some perspective back to a thread of severe overreaction.
Nothing that wonderwisdom described (and really, was that your best/worst example?) is "verbal assualt" or deserving of pepper spray, and certainly not worth abandoning a shopping expedition over.
Is there something else going on here?
posted by sageleaf at 3:57 PM on November 13, 2006
Nothing that wonderwisdom described (and really, was that your best/worst example?) is "verbal assualt" or deserving of pepper spray, and certainly not worth abandoning a shopping expedition over.
Is there something else going on here?
posted by sageleaf at 3:57 PM on November 13, 2006
That sucks mightily.
I agree with the people above who say that her shyness might be part of the reason for the hitting-on. Especially if she ever does this: just barely make eye contact, slight smile at corner of eyes, drop eyes to floor to sever eye contact, turn away. That move is feminine and can read as "approachable". If she thinks, upon reflection, that she might have some unconscious body/eye language that says "shy/feminine/approachable", here are some ways to change it.
Don't smile. Keep a neutral expression, totally unsmiling, including the corners of the eyes; maybe with brows slightly furrowed. The look you would have as you started on a long uphill walk. The look you have if you're thinking about the important court case you have to prosecute later today. A look that says "I am all business, and if you interrupt me I will cut you down". (Not a look that says "I am gentle and just going about my day")
Either avoid eye contact in the strong way (head always up and shoulders square; if accidental eye contact is made, look to the side rather than down, and don't move your mouth or eye-corners in response), or make direct but brief eye contact and again, don't change your expression. Resisting the impulse to "soften" the corners of your eyes, and maybe half-smile, is hard! But if you can maintain the all-business look, it helps.
In general maintain an air of purposefulness.
Use the store staff. If someone is following her, she should go to the information desk and tell them. If someone makes creepy comments and she feels like she would be unsafe walking to the car, she should absolutely talk to a manager.
If someone talks to you, again don't change your expression. This can feel really hostile, since most women change their expression automatically (to a friendly "I'm listening" look) when someone talks to them. Keep those brows furrowed. Your expression should be "I'm in the middle of something, and I don't understand why you're jabbering on".
Here's how to respond to creepy advances:
Please leave me alone. (Turn away, walk firmly away toward greatest concentration of staff members.)
or, if their creepy advance was outside the bounds of any possibly normal behavior, just "Leave me alone", or silence combined with the firm walking away.
The less you say, the better, since any response to their question can be interpreted as a response to keep interacting. Don't address whatever they've said. Just make a firm un-misunderstandable statement of what you require to happen next (leave me alone).
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:04 PM on November 13, 2006
I agree with the people above who say that her shyness might be part of the reason for the hitting-on. Especially if she ever does this: just barely make eye contact, slight smile at corner of eyes, drop eyes to floor to sever eye contact, turn away. That move is feminine and can read as "approachable". If she thinks, upon reflection, that she might have some unconscious body/eye language that says "shy/feminine/approachable", here are some ways to change it.
Don't smile. Keep a neutral expression, totally unsmiling, including the corners of the eyes; maybe with brows slightly furrowed. The look you would have as you started on a long uphill walk. The look you have if you're thinking about the important court case you have to prosecute later today. A look that says "I am all business, and if you interrupt me I will cut you down". (Not a look that says "I am gentle and just going about my day")
Either avoid eye contact in the strong way (head always up and shoulders square; if accidental eye contact is made, look to the side rather than down, and don't move your mouth or eye-corners in response), or make direct but brief eye contact and again, don't change your expression. Resisting the impulse to "soften" the corners of your eyes, and maybe half-smile, is hard! But if you can maintain the all-business look, it helps.
In general maintain an air of purposefulness.
Use the store staff. If someone is following her, she should go to the information desk and tell them. If someone makes creepy comments and she feels like she would be unsafe walking to the car, she should absolutely talk to a manager.
If someone talks to you, again don't change your expression. This can feel really hostile, since most women change their expression automatically (to a friendly "I'm listening" look) when someone talks to them. Keep those brows furrowed. Your expression should be "I'm in the middle of something, and I don't understand why you're jabbering on".
Here's how to respond to creepy advances:
Please leave me alone. (Turn away, walk firmly away toward greatest concentration of staff members.)
or, if their creepy advance was outside the bounds of any possibly normal behavior, just "Leave me alone", or silence combined with the firm walking away.
The less you say, the better, since any response to their question can be interpreted as a response to keep interacting. Don't address whatever they've said. Just make a firm un-misunderstandable statement of what you require to happen next (leave me alone).
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:04 PM on November 13, 2006
That said, 23skidoo is right that some of this may just be corny friendly-intentioned older dude "joking". In which case, "Sorry, no thanks." then look away. (Especially if this doesn't really match whatever their joke is supposed to be. Then you've thrown off the rhythm of the joke, and they don't have any way to recover.)
I know some women who would respond (to obviously innocent joking) by joking back; your wife shouldn't feel like she needs to do that, but having a simple non-freakout response would be helpful.
But she should trust her gut - if these guys are not innocently joking, she will have a sense of that. "I beg your pardon?!" or "I'm just trying to shop, not looking for a date; please leave me alone" would be a lot better than "Fuck off pencildick" for the innocent cases.
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:18 PM on November 13, 2006
I know some women who would respond (to obviously innocent joking) by joking back; your wife shouldn't feel like she needs to do that, but having a simple non-freakout response would be helpful.
But she should trust her gut - if these guys are not innocently joking, she will have a sense of that. "I beg your pardon?!" or "I'm just trying to shop, not looking for a date; please leave me alone" would be a lot better than "Fuck off pencildick" for the innocent cases.
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:18 PM on November 13, 2006
It doesn't really matter whether the creepy guy's intentions are innocent or not, if she feels threatened. Whether or not he is maybe/actually following is also not relevant, she felt threatened. She just needs some advice to help her feel safe. I don't think she should shout or scream or over-react, but I find that a calmly delivered "fuck off you creep" works just fine. It may be an over-reaction, but the worst possible outcome is that some creepy old guy thinks she is bitchy and humorless and leaves her alone in future. Cha-ching! Personally I have developed a grumpy expression which I wear whenever I am alone and feeling vulnerable. I no longer get hit on by weird creepy guys. Also, no eye contact - ever (except when delivering the "fuck off" line). Many socially inept freaks consider eye contact to be an invitation.
posted by Joh at 5:19 PM on November 13, 2006
posted by Joh at 5:19 PM on November 13, 2006
Agree with the harmless-older-dude flirtation theory for some of it, but I'm sure she gets stuff that isn't so harmless (and man, I hate hearing idiots say that all verbal harassment is harmless and should be ignored); I like konolia's suggestion for the latter:
It's the South - how about a firm "I BEG YOUR PARDON?" delivered with an icy glare?
I would think even a shy woman could master that. Well worth trying.
posted by languagehat at 5:24 PM on November 13, 2006
It's the South - how about a firm "I BEG YOUR PARDON?" delivered with an icy glare?
I would think even a shy woman could master that. Well worth trying.
posted by languagehat at 5:24 PM on November 13, 2006
I'm with LobsterMitten and the others who have suggested that some perspective is in order before your wife starts pepper-spraying any man who flirts with her. In my life, I've received the gamut of unwanted attention ranging from being hit on to being sexually assualted, so believe me, there's a world of difference between a clumsy remark in the produce aisle and being physically threatened.
In most cases, what you are describing can be nipped in the bud with either a icy silence (perhaps she simply walks away) or a firm "I'm trying to shop, thank you." If that doesn't work -- and again, most of the time it will -- and the person persists in trying to interact with her, she can simply go to the store manager. If she feels threatened or followed, she can be escorted to her car. But honestly, unless she's truly being verbally or physically intimidated in some way, there is no need to resort to kicking, screaming, pepper spray, etc. Comporting herself with confidence does not mean turning the aggression up to 11 on a dime.
posted by scody at 5:27 PM on November 13, 2006
In most cases, what you are describing can be nipped in the bud with either a icy silence (perhaps she simply walks away) or a firm "I'm trying to shop, thank you." If that doesn't work -- and again, most of the time it will -- and the person persists in trying to interact with her, she can simply go to the store manager. If she feels threatened or followed, she can be escorted to her car. But honestly, unless she's truly being verbally or physically intimidated in some way, there is no need to resort to kicking, screaming, pepper spray, etc. Comporting herself with confidence does not mean turning the aggression up to 11 on a dime.
posted by scody at 5:27 PM on November 13, 2006
It is not against the law to approach someone in public and flirt with them, and the line between that and "harrassment" is pretty broad. You (or rather your wife) could wind up on the wrong side of the law here (or the victim of an actual physical assault) by taking some of the advice offered in jest (or not so much) here. You could wind up in serious trouble for practicing the "deadly arts" on someone for being a schmuck.
Joh writes: It may be an over-reaction, but the worst possible outcome is that some creepy old guy thinks she is bitchy and humorless and leaves her alone in future.
Wrong. The worst possible outcome is that some crazy-assed stalker gets his buttons pushed (some of them *like* the over-the-top reaction, I'd wager) and decides to follow her out of the store or otherwise pursue the matter into another zone. Bad plan. Live in cities much?
The best thing you can do is not even acknowledge the offending person at all unless they impede your progress in some way. Just look right past them and move on. The iPod definitely helps.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:29 PM on November 13, 2006
Joh writes: It may be an over-reaction, but the worst possible outcome is that some creepy old guy thinks she is bitchy and humorless and leaves her alone in future.
Wrong. The worst possible outcome is that some crazy-assed stalker gets his buttons pushed (some of them *like* the over-the-top reaction, I'd wager) and decides to follow her out of the store or otherwise pursue the matter into another zone. Bad plan. Live in cities much?
The best thing you can do is not even acknowledge the offending person at all unless they impede your progress in some way. Just look right past them and move on. The iPod definitely helps.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:29 PM on November 13, 2006
Have her say "Oh wow, I'm so attracted to you, I really want to..." and then have her knee him in the crotch. When he falls to the ground, kick him, and then spit on him. Use pepper spray and then a taser. Drop something on his head, and then while walking away mutter "nevermind".
Or just ignore him. Her choice.
posted by blue_beetle at 5:46 PM on November 13, 2006
Or just ignore him. Her choice.
posted by blue_beetle at 5:46 PM on November 13, 2006
Oh, also, if she says something really loud, like "Leave me alone sir" most of the other guys in the area will come and take care of her problem for her.
posted by blue_beetle at 5:47 PM on November 13, 2006
posted by blue_beetle at 5:47 PM on November 13, 2006
23skidoo, in context with the rest of my comment, I'm saying that it doesnt matter as long she doesn't go ballistic and start screaming/shouting/spraying people. She just needs to find a verbal defense that makes her feel comfortable without escalating a possibly-innocent situation.
fourcheesemac, yes, I've lived in cities all my life. Never had an issue once I calmly told them to fuck off and got on with what I was doing. I think you are reading something into my post that isnt there. Stalkers don't approach women in supermarkets, talk to them, then follow them out of the door to attack them. They usually follow silently at a distance then wait until no-one is around to attack.
posted by Joh at 6:26 PM on November 13, 2006
fourcheesemac, yes, I've lived in cities all my life. Never had an issue once I calmly told them to fuck off and got on with what I was doing. I think you are reading something into my post that isnt there. Stalkers don't approach women in supermarkets, talk to them, then follow them out of the door to attack them. They usually follow silently at a distance then wait until no-one is around to attack.
posted by Joh at 6:26 PM on November 13, 2006
I'm not saying this to freak you out, but she NEEDS to be assertive and aggressive when telling these men to lay off. A simple, firm (and loud, but not yelling) "No. Please leave me alone." Something to bring attention to her direction and let this guy know what's up.
Here's where I make good on the not-saying-to-freak-you-out-thing: Some of these men may be hitting on her because she's shy and they think it's cute. However, predators will go for whomever looks vulnerable. If she can't tell off the jerk in the grocery store, he might think he's going to have an easy time of mugging/kidnapping/hurting your wife outside the store or following her home.
I say this because I was assaulted in a grocery store parking lot five years ago by a man I didn't speak up to when he spoke to me inside the store because I was shy and didn't want to make a scene. And I'm not saying that all of these guys hitting on your wife in the produce aisle are out to sexually assault your wife or anything, but the point is, you NEVER know. No matter how you cut it, it's an unwanted advance, and sometimes people take silence as an agreement.
posted by sephira at 6:34 PM on November 13, 2006 [2 favorites]
Here's where I make good on the not-saying-to-freak-you-out-thing: Some of these men may be hitting on her because she's shy and they think it's cute. However, predators will go for whomever looks vulnerable. If she can't tell off the jerk in the grocery store, he might think he's going to have an easy time of mugging/kidnapping/hurting your wife outside the store or following her home.
I say this because I was assaulted in a grocery store parking lot five years ago by a man I didn't speak up to when he spoke to me inside the store because I was shy and didn't want to make a scene. And I'm not saying that all of these guys hitting on your wife in the produce aisle are out to sexually assault your wife or anything, but the point is, you NEVER know. No matter how you cut it, it's an unwanted advance, and sometimes people take silence as an agreement.
posted by sephira at 6:34 PM on November 13, 2006 [2 favorites]
When I was younger I was harassed pretty constantly on the street, in a store, wherever. I think it's pretty common. The great thing about being older (and perhaps about being more confident) is that the harassment has gone way done, what a relief!
When I was dealing with this problem I found helpful this book called Back Off!
In the words of the Amazon web site, "Back Off! is the first book to focus on the direct-action tactics that work and the first to deal with harassment everywhere it takes place, in both blue-collar and white-collar jobs, at school, on the street, on the bus or subway, in the park, even in church."
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 7:43 PM on November 13, 2006
When I was dealing with this problem I found helpful this book called Back Off!
In the words of the Amazon web site, "Back Off! is the first book to focus on the direct-action tactics that work and the first to deal with harassment everywhere it takes place, in both blue-collar and white-collar jobs, at school, on the street, on the bus or subway, in the park, even in church."
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 7:43 PM on November 13, 2006
As a woman who gets a lot of unwanted attention, I need to say that I'm upset by the "take it less seriously" vein some of the responses have taken. I would rather see women take some well meant comments too seriously and protect themselves from the nefarious sorts rather than the other way around. People out to make victims look for people who are easily flustered and who are nice and helpful. Women are easily preyed upon when they have engaged in a "flirty" conversation, or have accepted help - getting the groceries to the car when the baggers are swamped, picking up a dropped item in an aisle, other ridiculously polite offers that put a woman in a potential position of indebtedness. Stop being so nice and tell these people, while looking them in the eye, that you are not going to entertain them. Use whatever words you feel comfortable with, but I find that "please leave me alone, I am in a hurry" works well, often getting people to mutter "what a bitch" which I take to mean "not a target." Just saying "no thanks" has not proven to get creepy guys off my trail. The "not quite following" is likely not a misinterpretation - it's not hard to figure out where someone will pop out next in a grocery store. You can look at the cart and guess where she's already been, from there it's either a left or a right at the end of this aisle.
Think of it this way - if a bear showed up in the forest while a deer was having a leafy snack, and the bear very sweetly said, "hey, how about those leafy snacks, wanna come have dinner?" The deer's first thought is obviously going to be "creepy fucking bear, run!" The deer's second thought is not going to be, but he's just a regular bear, probably not a deer eater. let's have a chat and be polite."
Your instinct about people is usually pretty good, and will generally keep you safe if you are firm. If your instinct turns out to be wrong and you have offended someone with your firmness, and they can't handle your need to protect yourself, then your instinct was probably right. This is not just useful in grocery stores, but also jobs, school, and friendship.
posted by bilabial at 7:52 PM on November 13, 2006 [2 favorites]
Think of it this way - if a bear showed up in the forest while a deer was having a leafy snack, and the bear very sweetly said, "hey, how about those leafy snacks, wanna come have dinner?" The deer's first thought is obviously going to be "creepy fucking bear, run!" The deer's second thought is not going to be, but he's just a regular bear, probably not a deer eater. let's have a chat and be polite."
Your instinct about people is usually pretty good, and will generally keep you safe if you are firm. If your instinct turns out to be wrong and you have offended someone with your firmness, and they can't handle your need to protect yourself, then your instinct was probably right. This is not just useful in grocery stores, but also jobs, school, and friendship.
posted by bilabial at 7:52 PM on November 13, 2006 [2 favorites]
How about an extremely loyal but anti-social dog, like a pit bull?
I bet people will think twice about walking up to your wife and making her uncomfortable if there's an easily agitated and overprotective dog at her side.
posted by Jon-o at 8:02 PM on November 13, 2006
I bet people will think twice about walking up to your wife and making her uncomfortable if there's an easily agitated and overprotective dog at her side.
posted by Jon-o at 8:02 PM on November 13, 2006
sephira's point leads me to a clarification -- when I said ignore the guy, I mean "ignore" as in don't break your stride, don't look down, don't look embarrassed or flustered. I agree that saying nothing while looking cowed is probably not the best plan if a guy seems overly insistent or potentially scary.
posted by occhiblu at 8:22 PM on November 13, 2006
posted by occhiblu at 8:22 PM on November 13, 2006
Even an imaginary dog will do the trick. I'm serious. I had been watching a lot of The Dog Whisperer a while back and was walking home one night thinking about the show. I was specifically thinking about the way he tells people to walk with their dogs, the relaxed confident stride. I guess I started doing the same thing physically, because a group of rowdy youths came around the corner just then and I walked right through them because they PARTED. Like the Red Sea. After I was past them I heard one say to another, "Daaaamn. How diesel was THAT?"I do take martial arts (which I highly recommend for all women) and walk with confidence, and I don't think the kids would have been a problem in any case. But it definitely works. If I'm walking alone and I feel nervous now, I just imagine I'm walking with a big dog and somehow I feel safer. It's crazy, I know, but maybe creating an external source of confidence is a possibility if she can't find it in herself right now.
posted by bink at 8:35 PM on November 13, 2006 [2 favorites]
posted by bink at 8:35 PM on November 13, 2006 [2 favorites]
Joh, no insult intended. But you're awfully certain you know how stalkers and psychos behave. How do you think they become focused on people enough to follow them at a distance?
It is not advisable to test the sanity of strangers who act aggressive toward you if it is not necessary. It's a basic principle of urban society, in my experience. You don't tell people to "fuck off" unless you're darn sure you won't face serious consequences for the escalation that is bound to ensue, and a woman alone by definition shouldn't risk an escalating confrontation with a man if it isn't necessary for her immediate safety.
It's the road-rage phenomenon. And it's very real.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:07 PM on November 13, 2006
It is not advisable to test the sanity of strangers who act aggressive toward you if it is not necessary. It's a basic principle of urban society, in my experience. You don't tell people to "fuck off" unless you're darn sure you won't face serious consequences for the escalation that is bound to ensue, and a woman alone by definition shouldn't risk an escalating confrontation with a man if it isn't necessary for her immediate safety.
It's the road-rage phenomenon. And it's very real.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:07 PM on November 13, 2006
I wish that I got random female attention in the grocery store. Sigh. Oh well.
Anyway, I second the idea of getting the wife some self defense classes. They can't hurt and at the very least, they're good exercise.
Be careful with the pepper spray ideas. Lighting off a can of pepper spray inside of Publix because some octogenarian made a jackass comment will likely get her thrown in jail and probably sued into the next county.
If she said "I want them to feel 3 inches tall!" - well, hrm. Try to tell her that she doesn't need to exact revenge on people just because they say something stupid. Ignoring them outright is probably more likely to make them feel 3 inches tall than any snarky comments. At that point, they're not only 3 inches tall, they just don't exist to her at all.
I've still never seen anyone exhibit behaviour like that in public. Maybe it's the area I live in. But if I did, I'd happily step in and shoo the offender away.
posted by drstein at 9:20 PM on November 13, 2006
Anyway, I second the idea of getting the wife some self defense classes. They can't hurt and at the very least, they're good exercise.
Be careful with the pepper spray ideas. Lighting off a can of pepper spray inside of Publix because some octogenarian made a jackass comment will likely get her thrown in jail and probably sued into the next county.
If she said "I want them to feel 3 inches tall!" - well, hrm. Try to tell her that she doesn't need to exact revenge on people just because they say something stupid. Ignoring them outright is probably more likely to make them feel 3 inches tall than any snarky comments. At that point, they're not only 3 inches tall, they just don't exist to her at all.
I've still never seen anyone exhibit behaviour like that in public. Maybe it's the area I live in. But if I did, I'd happily step in and shoo the offender away.
posted by drstein at 9:20 PM on November 13, 2006
I'd avoid the insults or anything smacking of cleverness. To some creepy guys, it might sound like playful, encouraging banter. ("Pencil dick? Ho ho! That's not true, and I can prove it!" It's a stretch, but not out of the realm of possibility.) An icy glare and any of the no-nonsense replies already suggested in here would probably be a better bet.
posted by diddlegnome at 9:41 PM on November 13, 2006
posted by diddlegnome at 9:41 PM on November 13, 2006
The absolute worst thing your wife can do is look like she's flustered or talk back.
posted by lia
I disagree. I usually scream at men who harrass me on the street, and every time I've done it, they really, really freak out and hurry away. They're used to women just taking it. It's like no one has ever screamed at them before.
"Leave me the fuck alone! I hope you die and rot in hell!" works pretty well. I've only been harrassed in the street, I think. If it happened to me in a store, I would try to get the person kicked out and banned from the premises.
Feel free to do what you want, but I just wanted to throw in a voice saying that the comment in the OP is the kind of corny-ass crap that old dudes say to beautiful younger women. They're not trying to be threatening, they're not even trying to flirt. They're just trying to get to spend a few seconds talking to someone pretty.
posted by 23skidoo
I really don't think this is the case: I think that men who act like this are trying consciously or unsconsciously, to intimidate women. However, on the odd chance that they "don't know any better," well, then, they need to learn, and they never will if women don't call them on it.
posted by Violet Hour at 12:25 AM on November 14, 2006
posted by lia
I disagree. I usually scream at men who harrass me on the street, and every time I've done it, they really, really freak out and hurry away. They're used to women just taking it. It's like no one has ever screamed at them before.
"Leave me the fuck alone! I hope you die and rot in hell!" works pretty well. I've only been harrassed in the street, I think. If it happened to me in a store, I would try to get the person kicked out and banned from the premises.
Feel free to do what you want, but I just wanted to throw in a voice saying that the comment in the OP is the kind of corny-ass crap that old dudes say to beautiful younger women. They're not trying to be threatening, they're not even trying to flirt. They're just trying to get to spend a few seconds talking to someone pretty.
posted by 23skidoo
I really don't think this is the case: I think that men who act like this are trying consciously or unsconsciously, to intimidate women. However, on the odd chance that they "don't know any better," well, then, they need to learn, and they never will if women don't call them on it.
posted by Violet Hour at 12:25 AM on November 14, 2006
I agree with others who have said that this is a fact of life in many cities and has very little to do with how you're dressed or how old you are or how attractive you are. I live in New York, and every female here has more creepy guy stories than you would imagine unless you, too, are a female living in a big city.
That said, my strategy is to completely refuse to acknowledge the existence of the creepy dudes unless I feel genuinely threatened, in which case I find the nearest cop or employee (depending on where I am). Others have mentioned earbuds or headphones, and these do indeed help a great deal, but even without them it's not so bad. Just don't react in any way and pretend that no one is even there - no eye contact, no interaction whatsoever. Usually they'll say a couple snotty things ("Bitch, are you deaf?") and then just move on.
You can, of course, deliver a killer line, but it's not like the guy is then going to say "Gosh, lady, you're right! I AM a creepy old loser!" and then just walk away. Expressing hostility is a good way to get into a very alarming confrontation, at least in New York.
posted by miskatonic at 4:01 AM on November 14, 2006
That said, my strategy is to completely refuse to acknowledge the existence of the creepy dudes unless I feel genuinely threatened, in which case I find the nearest cop or employee (depending on where I am). Others have mentioned earbuds or headphones, and these do indeed help a great deal, but even without them it's not so bad. Just don't react in any way and pretend that no one is even there - no eye contact, no interaction whatsoever. Usually they'll say a couple snotty things ("Bitch, are you deaf?") and then just move on.
You can, of course, deliver a killer line, but it's not like the guy is then going to say "Gosh, lady, you're right! I AM a creepy old loser!" and then just walk away. Expressing hostility is a good way to get into a very alarming confrontation, at least in New York.
posted by miskatonic at 4:01 AM on November 14, 2006
I'm pretty sure this isn't flirting:
"I wonder if your husband would mind if I took *you* home with me."
I mean, if it is, it's a way out there line.
I get this all the time. Recently I was riding the Tube here in London and a man kept stroking my, er, hump. Quite deliberately. I took my boyfriend's advice for this sort of situation and said, very loudly:
"OH MY GOD! WOULD YOU PLEASE TAKE YOUR HAND OFF MY BOTTOM, YOU DARK HAIRED MAN WEARING A PALE SUIT AND A RED BASEBALL CAP!"
The objective was to humiliate him rather than point out *to him* what he was doing wrong or how it was inconveniencing me (I think creepy guys are perfectly aware of the effect they have on the women they creepify).
I have no idea how "smokin' hot" I am. I dress fairly casually, but not sloppily. I am a bit shy, and LobsterMitten's comment makes A LOT of sense:
I agree with the people above who say that her shyness might be part of the reason for the hitting-on. Especially if she ever does this: just barely make eye contact, slight smile at corner of eyes, drop eyes to floor to sever eye contact, turn away. That move is feminine and can read as "approachable".
I'm sure that, unconsciously, I do this. But when I stride through the streets with my head held high and a slight scowl, no one bothers me.
I would also strongly advise against any references to pencil-dicks, or use of the word "fuck" at all. From my experience, the way creepy guys' minds work would mean that these references would be a titillation if anything. ("Aha! She said fuck! She has a pottymouth! She's probably dirty and has no morals! I'm in with a chance!", etc).
posted by unmusic at 5:30 AM on November 14, 2006 [3 favorites]
"I wonder if your husband would mind if I took *you* home with me."
I mean, if it is, it's a way out there line.
I get this all the time. Recently I was riding the Tube here in London and a man kept stroking my, er, hump. Quite deliberately. I took my boyfriend's advice for this sort of situation and said, very loudly:
"OH MY GOD! WOULD YOU PLEASE TAKE YOUR HAND OFF MY BOTTOM, YOU DARK HAIRED MAN WEARING A PALE SUIT AND A RED BASEBALL CAP!"
The objective was to humiliate him rather than point out *to him* what he was doing wrong or how it was inconveniencing me (I think creepy guys are perfectly aware of the effect they have on the women they creepify).
I have no idea how "smokin' hot" I am. I dress fairly casually, but not sloppily. I am a bit shy, and LobsterMitten's comment makes A LOT of sense:
I agree with the people above who say that her shyness might be part of the reason for the hitting-on. Especially if she ever does this: just barely make eye contact, slight smile at corner of eyes, drop eyes to floor to sever eye contact, turn away. That move is feminine and can read as "approachable".
I'm sure that, unconsciously, I do this. But when I stride through the streets with my head held high and a slight scowl, no one bothers me.
I would also strongly advise against any references to pencil-dicks, or use of the word "fuck" at all. From my experience, the way creepy guys' minds work would mean that these references would be a titillation if anything. ("Aha! She said fuck! She has a pottymouth! She's probably dirty and has no morals! I'm in with a chance!", etc).
posted by unmusic at 5:30 AM on November 14, 2006 [3 favorites]
PS: My humiliation thing on the Tube worked - he went bright red, removed his hand from my person and everyone gave him evil looks. Ha!
posted by unmusic at 5:33 AM on November 14, 2006
posted by unmusic at 5:33 AM on November 14, 2006
Men sometimes don't understand how unnerving this is.
Men can be VERY aggressive.
I don't get uncomfortable if someone actually approaches because it is normally very easy to get them to back off.
A slight look of disgust and "Please leave me alone now".
They seem to just be misguided jokers trying to hit on someone at the grocery store.
A few times I was followed around the store for about an hour so that I really had to go to the manager I felt so uncomfortable. If they had approached me so I could respond I would be happier.
posted by beccaj at 6:17 AM on November 14, 2006
Men can be VERY aggressive.
I don't get uncomfortable if someone actually approaches because it is normally very easy to get them to back off.
A slight look of disgust and "Please leave me alone now".
They seem to just be misguided jokers trying to hit on someone at the grocery store.
A few times I was followed around the store for about an hour so that I really had to go to the manager I felt so uncomfortable. If they had approached me so I could respond I would be happier.
posted by beccaj at 6:17 AM on November 14, 2006
Men sometimes don't understand how unnerving this is.
I absolutely agree and it's evident from some of the responses on this thread.
posted by agregoli at 10:49 AM on November 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
I absolutely agree and it's evident from some of the responses on this thread.
posted by agregoli at 10:49 AM on November 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
Wow, this is a depressing thread.
While I agree that many men out there may not understand how threatened women feel by having men flirt with them in public (which is to say, not in a conventional ‘flirting-friendly’ space such as a bar or dance or whatever), I would also have to point out that many women may not understand how incredibly lonely some men are. So lonely in fact that they might start approach women in grocery stores with stupid lines.
It’s situations like these that illustrate the pressing need for some sort of social dialogue about men and their sexuality, much as women had, say, between 1950 and 1990 or so. Men have basically been told – and obviously I’m speaking in huge generalities here – that the old ways aren’t working and you shouldn’t act like that anymore. Fair enough, and FWIW I agree.
The problem is that the only people stepping up to tell men how to act are either advertisers or people like Bill McCartney and the Promise Keepers. In either case, there’s an agenda, and it’s one that’s not going to make relations between the sexes much better.
I don’t have any magic solutions*, but what I see in this thread is about 90% total overreaction, likely deriving from what the poster wishes they had done when they felt themselves threatened or harassed. My suggestion would be to go with the polite-but-firm no, leave me alone-type response.
I just wonder what some women think men should do when they are lonely, lacking in social skills, and/or desperately horny? Should such men just jump in a volcano? Isn’t the service of sex workers seen as being just as “creepy” as unwanted flirting? It seems like such men are in a no-win situation.
Of course there are also lonely women in the world, and their plight is no less sad – but, as many women have told me, “the woman always decides”. By which I mean that if a woman – old, overweight, and ugly, though she may be – wakes up and decides, “today, I am going to get laid”, I would wager the odds are massively in her favour versus a similarly equipped man who made the same decision.
Need = pathetic more and more in our society, and I wonder how many people question that. Nobody wants to hear about it really. Those who bear the signs of naked need are “creepy”, “gross”, “old”, and so on. They’ve lost at the game of life and are expected to just shirk off (jerk off?) to a dark corner, where they won’t disturb our day.
To sum up, as a woman, you should be able to do your shopping without feeling uncomfortable; as a man, you should be able to get laid (and/or meet women) without without feeling creepy.
* Thank god I’m married and don’t have to deal with these questions anymore. I only met my wife because she asked me out (I myself got tired of always getting rejected, and just stopped trying after awhile).
posted by stinkycheese at 11:41 AM on November 14, 2006
While I agree that many men out there may not understand how threatened women feel by having men flirt with them in public (which is to say, not in a conventional ‘flirting-friendly’ space such as a bar or dance or whatever), I would also have to point out that many women may not understand how incredibly lonely some men are. So lonely in fact that they might start approach women in grocery stores with stupid lines.
It’s situations like these that illustrate the pressing need for some sort of social dialogue about men and their sexuality, much as women had, say, between 1950 and 1990 or so. Men have basically been told – and obviously I’m speaking in huge generalities here – that the old ways aren’t working and you shouldn’t act like that anymore. Fair enough, and FWIW I agree.
The problem is that the only people stepping up to tell men how to act are either advertisers or people like Bill McCartney and the Promise Keepers. In either case, there’s an agenda, and it’s one that’s not going to make relations between the sexes much better.
I don’t have any magic solutions*, but what I see in this thread is about 90% total overreaction, likely deriving from what the poster wishes they had done when they felt themselves threatened or harassed. My suggestion would be to go with the polite-but-firm no, leave me alone-type response.
I just wonder what some women think men should do when they are lonely, lacking in social skills, and/or desperately horny? Should such men just jump in a volcano? Isn’t the service of sex workers seen as being just as “creepy” as unwanted flirting? It seems like such men are in a no-win situation.
Of course there are also lonely women in the world, and their plight is no less sad – but, as many women have told me, “the woman always decides”. By which I mean that if a woman – old, overweight, and ugly, though she may be – wakes up and decides, “today, I am going to get laid”, I would wager the odds are massively in her favour versus a similarly equipped man who made the same decision.
Need = pathetic more and more in our society, and I wonder how many people question that. Nobody wants to hear about it really. Those who bear the signs of naked need are “creepy”, “gross”, “old”, and so on. They’ve lost at the game of life and are expected to just shirk off (jerk off?) to a dark corner, where they won’t disturb our day.
To sum up, as a woman, you should be able to do your shopping without feeling uncomfortable; as a man, you should be able to get laid (and/or meet women) without without feeling creepy.
* Thank god I’m married and don’t have to deal with these questions anymore. I only met my wife because she asked me out (I myself got tired of always getting rejected, and just stopped trying after awhile).
posted by stinkycheese at 11:41 AM on November 14, 2006
Full disclosure: I am female. I have had guys do a bad job of hitting on me, and I have had a genuine stalker. I know what unnerving means. I have said stupid things to people.
I would very much like to live in a world where no one has to deal with anything they don't want to. I think women (and men) who want to be left alone should be. But let's review.
There is a difference between sensing a real problem and seeing danger in every shadow.
The odds that this person was trying to be slyly clever are greater than the odds that he was a butchering rapist murderer.
Upthread, someone actually suggests a physical response that could result in death. Does someone who is merely bad at social interaction deserve that? What if you got nose pushed into your skull every time you said something less than brilliant?
Unfairly or not, there is an air of "OMG, someone who is different/out of my social class/older/otherwise undesirable had the audacity to speak to me!"
The next time you are in a supermarket, take note of how often you see the same people. They're going up and down the same aisles you are. They're not stalking you, they're shopping.
This thread has had a lot of responses from people who have had far worse interactions, and those are getting projected onto the original question. There's no groping in the original question. No "I'm gonna... and then I'm gonna..." The guy said, "I wonder if your husband would mind.." which indicates (to me, at least) that he's fishing for an opening: "Gee, I don't have a husband..." See remark upthread about supermarkets being a great place to meet people.
The goal here should not be a withering comeback or an over-the-top physical response. The goal should a proper assessment of the situation, and if it's not a genuine threat, to get on with your day. We weren't there, so we don't really know if this was a genuine threat, but if you think it will help, by all means, call the cops and report it.
posted by sageleaf at 11:48 AM on November 14, 2006
I would very much like to live in a world where no one has to deal with anything they don't want to. I think women (and men) who want to be left alone should be. But let's review.
There is a difference between sensing a real problem and seeing danger in every shadow.
The odds that this person was trying to be slyly clever are greater than the odds that he was a butchering rapist murderer.
Upthread, someone actually suggests a physical response that could result in death. Does someone who is merely bad at social interaction deserve that? What if you got nose pushed into your skull every time you said something less than brilliant?
Unfairly or not, there is an air of "OMG, someone who is different/out of my social class/older/otherwise undesirable had the audacity to speak to me!"
The next time you are in a supermarket, take note of how often you see the same people. They're going up and down the same aisles you are. They're not stalking you, they're shopping.
This thread has had a lot of responses from people who have had far worse interactions, and those are getting projected onto the original question. There's no groping in the original question. No "I'm gonna... and then I'm gonna..." The guy said, "I wonder if your husband would mind.." which indicates (to me, at least) that he's fishing for an opening: "Gee, I don't have a husband..." See remark upthread about supermarkets being a great place to meet people.
The goal here should not be a withering comeback or an over-the-top physical response. The goal should a proper assessment of the situation, and if it's not a genuine threat, to get on with your day. We weren't there, so we don't really know if this was a genuine threat, but if you think it will help, by all means, call the cops and report it.
posted by sageleaf at 11:48 AM on November 14, 2006
You know, I don't care how lonely a guy is. He can have his friends or his family introduce him to people or he can join clubs or activities to meet people-but if he is in the grocery store and I don't know him and don't know anyone who knows him, why should I not assume the worst with those types of comments?
OTOH, if one has a sense of humor, hilarity can insue. When I was a third shift waffle house waitress I had drunk old guys, drunk young guys, and both drunk and sober lesbians flirt and make comments to me. Aside from the time I had to hit one guy upside the head with a menu, no harm done.
posted by konolia at 12:07 PM on November 14, 2006
OTOH, if one has a sense of humor, hilarity can insue. When I was a third shift waffle house waitress I had drunk old guys, drunk young guys, and both drunk and sober lesbians flirt and make comments to me. Aside from the time I had to hit one guy upside the head with a menu, no harm done.
posted by konolia at 12:07 PM on November 14, 2006
stinkycheese & sageleaf: I think that both of you have made excellent points and even though I'm not the original poster, I thank you for posting them.
Flagged both as "Excellent post."
posted by drstein at 12:09 PM on November 14, 2006
Flagged both as "Excellent post."
posted by drstein at 12:09 PM on November 14, 2006
I think a lot of the men in this thread are not actually understanding the type of harassment most of the women in this thread are talking about.
I don't mean to speak for all women, but in my own experience:
Flirting with strangers is not harassment. I have been approached by many friendly, nice, funny strangers in a variety of places (including the supermarket) and not had any problem talking with them, nor did I feel in any way harassed or violated.
I would assume that most of the men posting here are nice guys who, when they approach women, fall into that category.
There are, however, many men out there who are not nice. Who do not take no for an answer, who view the simple existence of women in public as an invitation to assert their manhood, and who get physically or verbally violent when the woman whose attention they think they have a right to ignores them or otherwise asserts her independence.
Those guys are the ones that I, and I assume most women posting here, are talking about.
When a guy comes up to talk to me, one of the basic parts of my brain is immediately thinking, "Is he going to hurt me?" If a guy is respectful of my space, respectful of my tone, and following social conventions about appropriate topics of conversation, that part of my brain relaxes. I assume most men here would at least meet those criteria. This is the guy who smiles at you in the check-out line, who makes a light joke about the weather or another patron at a cafe, or who says something, sees that I'm not interested, and backs away.
If a guy is not respectful of my space (either because he's keeping a weird distance but following me, for instance, or because he's standing too close), if he's not respectful of my tone (in other words, keeps pursuing a conversation after I've repeatedly made it clear I'm not interested), or does not follow social conventions about appropriate topics of conversation ("Come sit on my face" is not flirting. "Would your husband let me bring you home?," said to a stranger, is not flirting), then I'm going to make the self-preserving assumption that the guy is also unlikely to follow non-conversational clues and I'm going to label him a rape threat.
"No means no" does not pop into existence in the bedroom. If you approach me as a stranger and I say no to you -- through my words, through my body language -- and you don't listen, why would I want to become *more* intimate with you? If you approach me as a stranger and don't seem to understand what normal boundaries for conversation among strangers are, why would I want to put myself in a position of relying on you to enforce more intimate boundaries?
You guys posting here are almost guaranteed not to fall into the category of men that most women here are discussing. "Socially awkward" is not the same as lewd, intrusive, and sexually inappropriate. We women are, in fact, smart enough to tell the difference between a guy who's a little shy and intimidated versus a guy who's trying to intimidate us.
posted by occhiblu at 12:45 PM on November 14, 2006 [6 favorites]
I don't mean to speak for all women, but in my own experience:
Flirting with strangers is not harassment. I have been approached by many friendly, nice, funny strangers in a variety of places (including the supermarket) and not had any problem talking with them, nor did I feel in any way harassed or violated.
I would assume that most of the men posting here are nice guys who, when they approach women, fall into that category.
There are, however, many men out there who are not nice. Who do not take no for an answer, who view the simple existence of women in public as an invitation to assert their manhood, and who get physically or verbally violent when the woman whose attention they think they have a right to ignores them or otherwise asserts her independence.
Those guys are the ones that I, and I assume most women posting here, are talking about.
When a guy comes up to talk to me, one of the basic parts of my brain is immediately thinking, "Is he going to hurt me?" If a guy is respectful of my space, respectful of my tone, and following social conventions about appropriate topics of conversation, that part of my brain relaxes. I assume most men here would at least meet those criteria. This is the guy who smiles at you in the check-out line, who makes a light joke about the weather or another patron at a cafe, or who says something, sees that I'm not interested, and backs away.
If a guy is not respectful of my space (either because he's keeping a weird distance but following me, for instance, or because he's standing too close), if he's not respectful of my tone (in other words, keeps pursuing a conversation after I've repeatedly made it clear I'm not interested), or does not follow social conventions about appropriate topics of conversation ("Come sit on my face" is not flirting. "Would your husband let me bring you home?," said to a stranger, is not flirting), then I'm going to make the self-preserving assumption that the guy is also unlikely to follow non-conversational clues and I'm going to label him a rape threat.
"No means no" does not pop into existence in the bedroom. If you approach me as a stranger and I say no to you -- through my words, through my body language -- and you don't listen, why would I want to become *more* intimate with you? If you approach me as a stranger and don't seem to understand what normal boundaries for conversation among strangers are, why would I want to put myself in a position of relying on you to enforce more intimate boundaries?
You guys posting here are almost guaranteed not to fall into the category of men that most women here are discussing. "Socially awkward" is not the same as lewd, intrusive, and sexually inappropriate. We women are, in fact, smart enough to tell the difference between a guy who's a little shy and intimidated versus a guy who's trying to intimidate us.
posted by occhiblu at 12:45 PM on November 14, 2006 [6 favorites]
You know, I don't care how lonely a guy is.
The above was what I was about to post and I'll also give a hear-hear to occhiblu's post above. EXACTLY right. Anyone who is persuing social interaction with someone who is clearly giving signals they don't want to be bothered is harassing that person - whether it's sexual or flirting or not, it doesn't matter. The behavior should cease. It's inappropriate, rude, and often threatening. And it's not on the person being harassed at that point to respect that stranger's feelings - because they are clearly not respecting the feelings of the person they are harassing.
Which is why there was much advice about the OP's wife making it clear she should be left alone, in increasingly strident tones and words, if necessary. Because some guys don't get the softer hints.
posted by agregoli at 2:15 PM on November 14, 2006
The above was what I was about to post and I'll also give a hear-hear to occhiblu's post above. EXACTLY right. Anyone who is persuing social interaction with someone who is clearly giving signals they don't want to be bothered is harassing that person - whether it's sexual or flirting or not, it doesn't matter. The behavior should cease. It's inappropriate, rude, and often threatening. And it's not on the person being harassed at that point to respect that stranger's feelings - because they are clearly not respecting the feelings of the person they are harassing.
Which is why there was much advice about the OP's wife making it clear she should be left alone, in increasingly strident tones and words, if necessary. Because some guys don't get the softer hints.
posted by agregoli at 2:15 PM on November 14, 2006
You know, I don't care how lonely a guy is.
I was going to highlight that too agregoli, but for rather different reasons. How would you have reacted if it read instead:
You know, I don't care how frightened a girl is.
When you say, "Anyone who is persuing social interaction with someone who is clearly giving signals they don't want to be bothered is harassing that person" - you suggest that men should be more attentive to women's signals, and how they're feeling. Though I disagree with your definition of harassment (which seems so wide-ranging as to encompass greeters and solicitators, for example) I agree with the sentiment behind it.
Yet, in the same breath, you (and konolia) appear to take pride in dismissing the hypothetical man's feelings. I'm seeing a contradiction here.
Let's be clear, we do have laws concerning behaviour as well as speech - if people are in violation of those laws, they deserve to be charged. No one is arguing against that position. For myself, I'm just saying let's not forget that there's two sides to this story.
I don't wish to be seen as the champion of "creepy guys" everywhere, but I do find it odd how quickly this whole group of society - basically, men expressing desire beyond the age of, what, thirty? - is marginalised with an unattractive label, and then summarily dismissed out of hand.
I thank the OP for initiating this discussion BTW. As I stated in my last post, people really need to discuss this sort of thing far more than we do currently - how men and women interact is such a basic and fundamental part of society, yet the only discussion we're prone to seeing on the subject are ads telling us how to score hot dates, or books telling us the rules, etc.
It's kind of a pet peeve with me, I admit. Rip into me if you will.
posted by stinkycheese at 3:19 PM on November 14, 2006
I was going to highlight that too agregoli, but for rather different reasons. How would you have reacted if it read instead:
You know, I don't care how frightened a girl is.
When you say, "Anyone who is persuing social interaction with someone who is clearly giving signals they don't want to be bothered is harassing that person" - you suggest that men should be more attentive to women's signals, and how they're feeling. Though I disagree with your definition of harassment (which seems so wide-ranging as to encompass greeters and solicitators, for example) I agree with the sentiment behind it.
Yet, in the same breath, you (and konolia) appear to take pride in dismissing the hypothetical man's feelings. I'm seeing a contradiction here.
Let's be clear, we do have laws concerning behaviour as well as speech - if people are in violation of those laws, they deserve to be charged. No one is arguing against that position. For myself, I'm just saying let's not forget that there's two sides to this story.
I don't wish to be seen as the champion of "creepy guys" everywhere, but I do find it odd how quickly this whole group of society - basically, men expressing desire beyond the age of, what, thirty? - is marginalised with an unattractive label, and then summarily dismissed out of hand.
I thank the OP for initiating this discussion BTW. As I stated in my last post, people really need to discuss this sort of thing far more than we do currently - how men and women interact is such a basic and fundamental part of society, yet the only discussion we're prone to seeing on the subject are ads telling us how to score hot dates, or books telling us the rules, etc.
It's kind of a pet peeve with me, I admit. Rip into me if you will.
posted by stinkycheese at 3:19 PM on November 14, 2006
stinkycheese, I think you're on the wrong side of this one. Suppose these guys were young, and saying the same inappropriate things -- I'm guessing OP's wife would still feel threatened. If they're expressing desire (rather than intending to hassle and embarrass), they're expressing it in a way that's outside the normal social bounds for exactly the reasons occhiblu describes.
Now, obviously, breaking the guy's nose would be an overreaction. But I think most people here are agreed on this. Although some people have suggested a physical response, I think the consensus is (within a generally safe shop) that a more or less firm verbal response is the way to go.
You say: as a woman, you should be able to do your shopping without feeling uncomfortable; as a man, you should be able to get laid (and/or meet women) without without feeling creepy.
Notice that the "right" you want for the man requires the cooperation of another person. I'll go with you that all people deserve, in some abstract sense, to be able to get love. But here's a concrete case where the question is, whose responsibility are you suggesting it should be, to allow these guys to fulfill their human right to get laid? I can't think of a concrete answer to that question that isn't horrifying.
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:03 PM on November 14, 2006 [4 favorites]
Now, obviously, breaking the guy's nose would be an overreaction. But I think most people here are agreed on this. Although some people have suggested a physical response, I think the consensus is (within a generally safe shop) that a more or less firm verbal response is the way to go.
You say: as a woman, you should be able to do your shopping without feeling uncomfortable; as a man, you should be able to get laid (and/or meet women) without without feeling creepy.
Notice that the "right" you want for the man requires the cooperation of another person. I'll go with you that all people deserve, in some abstract sense, to be able to get love. But here's a concrete case where the question is, whose responsibility are you suggesting it should be, to allow these guys to fulfill their human right to get laid? I can't think of a concrete answer to that question that isn't horrifying.
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:03 PM on November 14, 2006 [4 favorites]
Let me put that another way.
occhiblu points out, correctly, that it's highly prudent to be suspicious of people who ignore the conventional social boundaries, because who knows what other conventional social boundaries they might ignore?
stinkycheese is saying that maybe the conventional social boundaries should be set differently. Ok, maybe so (although I don't relish being the object of lots of "expressions of desire" whenever I go walking around town). That doesn't have a lot to do with what's the prudent course of action for the OP's wife, though. Given that the social boundaries are set the way they are for now, these guys are still showing themselves to be social-convention-violators. And so it's still prudent to react to them that way, regardless of what we think the social conventions should be.
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:08 PM on November 14, 2006
occhiblu points out, correctly, that it's highly prudent to be suspicious of people who ignore the conventional social boundaries, because who knows what other conventional social boundaries they might ignore?
stinkycheese is saying that maybe the conventional social boundaries should be set differently. Ok, maybe so (although I don't relish being the object of lots of "expressions of desire" whenever I go walking around town). That doesn't have a lot to do with what's the prudent course of action for the OP's wife, though. Given that the social boundaries are set the way they are for now, these guys are still showing themselves to be social-convention-violators. And so it's still prudent to react to them that way, regardless of what we think the social conventions should be.
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:08 PM on November 14, 2006
Well, as to the specifics of the the incident in question, the OP and his wife are obviously in the best position to judge. It's possible the remark was benign or it's possible it was threatening - meanings of language depend to a great degree on how they are received (or perceived).
In some situations, down a dark alley at midnight for instance, I would imagine it would be terrifying. As others have noted, in other circumstances, such a remark might have been seen as funny or merely curious or even appreciated and perhaps even reciprocated.
My concern is more with the way the question was posed, and the way it was received - because I think that says a great deal.
At the risk of stepping (further?) into Uncomfortable Land, I do think the biological impulses of men are a very real factor in how society writ large operates, as of course are the biological impulses of women. LobsterMitten rightly points out that it would be horrifying to consider it anyone's responsibility to engage in sex. I agree.
That said, what are we to do about the very real possibility that there may be masses of people, male and female, having a basic human need that is not being met? I would posit that the least we could do is be upfront about that, and try to move pro-actively forward from social controls built around shame and repression. That doesn't BTW have to mean people getting freaky, "whenever (you) go walking around town".
So now it seems I've worked my way into arguing for red light districts or something as a means of avoiding women being harassed in grocery stores. That's really not what I'm trying to say - I guess I just have a problem with the generic "creepy old man" tag.
I know all too well that harassment and predator behaviour are very real for innumerable women in life; I have a mother, a wife, and a daughter, and of course I would hope these things never touch them.
I also know all too well that when people get labelled as a "creepy guy", it inevitably means they were being inappropriately sexual. That's where I find all this gets interesting - why/how/what we define as being inappropriately sexual.
That's what merits more social discussion IMHO - sexual propriety (and by extension sexual inpropriety) is a slippery, fluid thing and it's not something everyone agrees on. It will change from the point where you stepped on an airplane to the point where you exit the plane. It will most certainly change from the time you are young to the time you are old, and it seems to me that such confusion about how to act sexually is a really serious problem.
posted by stinkycheese at 5:01 PM on November 14, 2006
In some situations, down a dark alley at midnight for instance, I would imagine it would be terrifying. As others have noted, in other circumstances, such a remark might have been seen as funny or merely curious or even appreciated and perhaps even reciprocated.
My concern is more with the way the question was posed, and the way it was received - because I think that says a great deal.
At the risk of stepping (further?) into Uncomfortable Land, I do think the biological impulses of men are a very real factor in how society writ large operates, as of course are the biological impulses of women. LobsterMitten rightly points out that it would be horrifying to consider it anyone's responsibility to engage in sex. I agree.
That said, what are we to do about the very real possibility that there may be masses of people, male and female, having a basic human need that is not being met? I would posit that the least we could do is be upfront about that, and try to move pro-actively forward from social controls built around shame and repression. That doesn't BTW have to mean people getting freaky, "whenever (you) go walking around town".
So now it seems I've worked my way into arguing for red light districts or something as a means of avoiding women being harassed in grocery stores. That's really not what I'm trying to say - I guess I just have a problem with the generic "creepy old man" tag.
I know all too well that harassment and predator behaviour are very real for innumerable women in life; I have a mother, a wife, and a daughter, and of course I would hope these things never touch them.
I also know all too well that when people get labelled as a "creepy guy", it inevitably means they were being inappropriately sexual. That's where I find all this gets interesting - why/how/what we define as being inappropriately sexual.
That's what merits more social discussion IMHO - sexual propriety (and by extension sexual inpropriety) is a slippery, fluid thing and it's not something everyone agrees on. It will change from the point where you stepped on an airplane to the point where you exit the plane. It will most certainly change from the time you are young to the time you are old, and it seems to me that such confusion about how to act sexually is a really serious problem.
posted by stinkycheese at 5:01 PM on November 14, 2006
That said, what are we to do about the very real possibility that there may be masses of people, male and female, having a basic human need that is not being met?
possibility > fact
may be > are
posted by stinkycheese at 5:04 PM on November 14, 2006
possibility > fact
may be > are
posted by stinkycheese at 5:04 PM on November 14, 2006
Maslow would argue that sex is not a basic human need. We don't see Needs of Love, Affection and Belongingness until level three of that handy pyramid. That would be after the physiological needs for food, water, oxygen and appropriate temperature and the safety needs.
It would seem that the feelings of "not being creeped out and worrying about dismemberment" come ahead of (er, lower on the pyramid than) the "desire to get some in the sack."
Just saying.
posted by bilabial at 5:44 PM on November 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
It would seem that the feelings of "not being creeped out and worrying about dismemberment" come ahead of (er, lower on the pyramid than) the "desire to get some in the sack."
Just saying.
posted by bilabial at 5:44 PM on November 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
Actually, Maslow apparently places sex in the bottom level, "physiological needs." However, I assume this refers to the physical release rather than to intimacy (what you're talking about, on level three).
posted by booksandlibretti at 7:18 PM on November 14, 2006
posted by booksandlibretti at 7:18 PM on November 14, 2006
why/how/what we define as being inappropriately sexual
Of course it's situational, but that's the point. If you can't follow my cues for the interaction I deem appropriate and desired, then even if you may not be a rapist, you're probably going to be a pretty lousy lover. So even taking the "creepy" aspect out of it (though I still think women's fear of being attacked is the main issue here), it still does a man no favors to display his complete inability to understand, respect, or listen to women.
And while it may be sad, in a general sort of way, that men who can't understand, respect, or listen to women aren't getting laid, I can't really place the blame for that on women.
I mean, really: If you come up to me, and I think you're being creepy, then even if by some objective measure you're not being creepy, we still shouldn't date, because we're failing to communicate in a very basic way. If, despite this, you still want to date me, then it is on you, as the one who wants a change in behavior, to change your approach. If you do not want to change your approach, then you will have to go find someone who does not find your approach creepy. This is no different from any other aspect of your personality.
And it is certainly not your right to date (or sleep with) me. You could argue it's your right to have the desire to date me, and to express that desire, but that's about where your rights end with regards to me as an individual. Because women are human beings, with their own rights and bodily autonomy, not just objects for men's affections. If a guy can't understand that -- that's where the understanding, respecting, and listening to women comes in -- then it's his own damned fault for expecting something -- understanding and respect -- that he's not giving in return.
And yes, men used to be able to demand this one-sided deal. That they can't do so as easily anymore is not a bad thing.
posted by occhiblu at 8:00 PM on November 14, 2006 [4 favorites]
Of course it's situational, but that's the point. If you can't follow my cues for the interaction I deem appropriate and desired, then even if you may not be a rapist, you're probably going to be a pretty lousy lover. So even taking the "creepy" aspect out of it (though I still think women's fear of being attacked is the main issue here), it still does a man no favors to display his complete inability to understand, respect, or listen to women.
And while it may be sad, in a general sort of way, that men who can't understand, respect, or listen to women aren't getting laid, I can't really place the blame for that on women.
I mean, really: If you come up to me, and I think you're being creepy, then even if by some objective measure you're not being creepy, we still shouldn't date, because we're failing to communicate in a very basic way. If, despite this, you still want to date me, then it is on you, as the one who wants a change in behavior, to change your approach. If you do not want to change your approach, then you will have to go find someone who does not find your approach creepy. This is no different from any other aspect of your personality.
And it is certainly not your right to date (or sleep with) me. You could argue it's your right to have the desire to date me, and to express that desire, but that's about where your rights end with regards to me as an individual. Because women are human beings, with their own rights and bodily autonomy, not just objects for men's affections. If a guy can't understand that -- that's where the understanding, respecting, and listening to women comes in -- then it's his own damned fault for expecting something -- understanding and respect -- that he's not giving in return.
And yes, men used to be able to demand this one-sided deal. That they can't do so as easily anymore is not a bad thing.
posted by occhiblu at 8:00 PM on November 14, 2006 [4 favorites]
(None of the above, by the way, is meant to imply that only men who don't respect women aren't having sex, or that there aren't also women who don't respect men.)
posted by occhiblu at 8:01 PM on November 14, 2006
posted by occhiblu at 8:01 PM on November 14, 2006
Also, I think this:
basically, men expressing desire beyond the age of, what, thirty? - is marginalised with an unattractive label, and then summarily dismissed out of hand.
is just totally off-base, at least with regards to this conversation. I've had creepy encounters with young men, and perfectly pleasant flirtatious conversations with old men. And perhaps you're exaggerating, but 30??? I'm dating a 34-year-old, and "creepy" never entered my mind about him. I think you're fixating on the "old" aspect of this in a way that none of the women responding here are.
posted by occhiblu at 8:07 PM on November 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
basically, men expressing desire beyond the age of, what, thirty? - is marginalised with an unattractive label, and then summarily dismissed out of hand.
is just totally off-base, at least with regards to this conversation. I've had creepy encounters with young men, and perfectly pleasant flirtatious conversations with old men. And perhaps you're exaggerating, but 30??? I'm dating a 34-year-old, and "creepy" never entered my mind about him. I think you're fixating on the "old" aspect of this in a way that none of the women responding here are.
posted by occhiblu at 8:07 PM on November 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
When she first notices the guy following her: "Stop following me!!"
If he's standing too close to her: "Stop crowding me!"
If he says something crude: "Stop harrassing women! No one likes it!!"
If it's an employee of the store who is acting this way get the manager--if it's the person in charge: "I won't shop where I'm not treated with respect!" and walk out.
There isn't a Hollaback Atlanta yet, but I've seen postings from other parts of the world on the various sites.
posted by brujita at 9:26 PM on November 14, 2006
If he's standing too close to her: "Stop crowding me!"
If he says something crude: "Stop harrassing women! No one likes it!!"
If it's an employee of the store who is acting this way get the manager--if it's the person in charge: "I won't shop where I'm not treated with respect!" and walk out.
There isn't a Hollaback Atlanta yet, but I've seen postings from other parts of the world on the various sites.
posted by brujita at 9:26 PM on November 14, 2006
occhiblu: it still does a man no favors to display his complete inability to understand, respect, or listen to women.
Of course.
...while it may be sad, in a general sort of way, that men who can't understand, respect, or listen to women aren't getting laid, I can't really place the blame for that on women.
I agree. I'm not attempting to place blame, let me be clear. It's awful that hurricanes and famines exist as well, but arguably (foregoing the foreseeable) there's no one to blame for hurricanes and famines either. These are a natural occurance occasionally, as is the occasional generation of men who must go without a mate in their lifetime because of skewed demographics in the area in which they live, for instance, or because they have some severe deformity, or smell bad, or whatever.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying such demographically-derived celibacy is a major calamity or something that simply cannot be tolerated. Obviously such discrepancies have been going on for a long time, and the world keeps turning. That such generations of frustrated men can be bent for idealogical means or to funnel social aggressions is equally obvious.
But, for all its ubiquity, isn't this kind of enforced loneliness a real social problem? Not everyone has a family or friends who can set them up with dates, after all. Some people will never go beyond handshakes or handing someone change. Particularly in such a sex-hype mediated culture as our own, this lack of any touch or communication must surely have profound effects on the individual.
Yes, before companionship or even simple sexual release, there are needs such as food, water, shelter - we take such needs as being fundamental, and their absence anywhere in the world is rightly viewed as a serious problem. It's interesting to me that these are all things we can theoretically obtain for ourself in the world.
When it comes to sexuality or companionship however, we're talking about something that does require the consent of another human being - and so, in an odd way, the freedom of the individual, this ability to say "no" - also ensures that some people will always be said "no" to, will always be rejected.
You could argue it's your right to...express that desire, but that's about where your rights end with regards to me as an individual.
I thought that's basically what we were talking about.
Because women are human beings, with their own rights and bodily autonomy, not just objects for men's affections. If a guy can't understand that -- that's where the understanding, respecting, and listening to women comes in -- then it's his own damned fault for expecting something -- understanding and respect -- that he's not giving in return.
I think you're right, but I think many, many men simply do not understand this idea. I have the impression many men feel their social obligation is basically to work a days' work and earn a day's wage. The idea of understanding, respecting, and listening to women can seem like chasing down shadows for all the hard, tangible substance that is there. Not to imply that I personally feel this way!
And yes, men used to be able to demand this one-sided deal. That they can't do so as easily anymore is not a bad thing.
Not at all. I'm suggesting that, although the one-sided deal is a thing of the past, there hasn't been much discussion of what is to replace it - for men.
posted by stinkycheese at 10:29 PM on November 14, 2006
Of course.
...while it may be sad, in a general sort of way, that men who can't understand, respect, or listen to women aren't getting laid, I can't really place the blame for that on women.
I agree. I'm not attempting to place blame, let me be clear. It's awful that hurricanes and famines exist as well, but arguably (foregoing the foreseeable) there's no one to blame for hurricanes and famines either. These are a natural occurance occasionally, as is the occasional generation of men who must go without a mate in their lifetime because of skewed demographics in the area in which they live, for instance, or because they have some severe deformity, or smell bad, or whatever.
Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying such demographically-derived celibacy is a major calamity or something that simply cannot be tolerated. Obviously such discrepancies have been going on for a long time, and the world keeps turning. That such generations of frustrated men can be bent for idealogical means or to funnel social aggressions is equally obvious.
But, for all its ubiquity, isn't this kind of enforced loneliness a real social problem? Not everyone has a family or friends who can set them up with dates, after all. Some people will never go beyond handshakes or handing someone change. Particularly in such a sex-hype mediated culture as our own, this lack of any touch or communication must surely have profound effects on the individual.
Yes, before companionship or even simple sexual release, there are needs such as food, water, shelter - we take such needs as being fundamental, and their absence anywhere in the world is rightly viewed as a serious problem. It's interesting to me that these are all things we can theoretically obtain for ourself in the world.
When it comes to sexuality or companionship however, we're talking about something that does require the consent of another human being - and so, in an odd way, the freedom of the individual, this ability to say "no" - also ensures that some people will always be said "no" to, will always be rejected.
You could argue it's your right to...express that desire, but that's about where your rights end with regards to me as an individual.
I thought that's basically what we were talking about.
Because women are human beings, with their own rights and bodily autonomy, not just objects for men's affections. If a guy can't understand that -- that's where the understanding, respecting, and listening to women comes in -- then it's his own damned fault for expecting something -- understanding and respect -- that he's not giving in return.
I think you're right, but I think many, many men simply do not understand this idea. I have the impression many men feel their social obligation is basically to work a days' work and earn a day's wage. The idea of understanding, respecting, and listening to women can seem like chasing down shadows for all the hard, tangible substance that is there. Not to imply that I personally feel this way!
And yes, men used to be able to demand this one-sided deal. That they can't do so as easily anymore is not a bad thing.
Not at all. I'm suggesting that, although the one-sided deal is a thing of the past, there hasn't been much discussion of what is to replace it - for men.
posted by stinkycheese at 10:29 PM on November 14, 2006
although the one-sided deal is a thing of the past, there hasn't been much discussion of what is to replace it - for men
I would agree that it's true, and I agree that it's something that's sorely lacking for men, and I hope that it is something that becomes a more common topic of debate and conversation. Breaking down the walls that constrict men by gender seems like an important goal.
posted by occhiblu at 10:58 PM on November 14, 2006
I would agree that it's true, and I agree that it's something that's sorely lacking for men, and I hope that it is something that becomes a more common topic of debate and conversation. Breaking down the walls that constrict men by gender seems like an important goal.
posted by occhiblu at 10:58 PM on November 14, 2006
Incidentally, I'd be willing to bet your wife didn't grow up with a brother around her age. I've found that women with brothers tend to have more experience with both taunting and physical fighting, and we can more easily spot an opponent's weaknesses and openings. We're also (generally) less reserved about hitting people. If my brother's reading this: thanks!
Speak for yourself. I don't know about the relative age of you and your brother, but mine was two years older. The continued brutalization, humiliation, and carefully targeted emotional erosion of my sense of self-worth did not make me stronger. If I tried to throw a punch it only got me punched ten times more. I quickly learned not to bother. Glad your situation worked out for you, but please don't generalize. Yeah okay you said "tend to" but I'm just offering up a data point here.
Go ahead, blame me. I'm used to being blamed for being too "thin-skinned" or too "sensitive". I heard it all, growing up. Trust me. Guess what? Such talk didn't make me stronger. It just led me to hate myself even more.
So now I'm a six-foot-tall behemoth and as timid as a mouse.
Sorry for the derail.
posted by beth at 12:11 AM on November 15, 2006
Speak for yourself. I don't know about the relative age of you and your brother, but mine was two years older. The continued brutalization, humiliation, and carefully targeted emotional erosion of my sense of self-worth did not make me stronger. If I tried to throw a punch it only got me punched ten times more. I quickly learned not to bother. Glad your situation worked out for you, but please don't generalize. Yeah okay you said "tend to" but I'm just offering up a data point here.
Go ahead, blame me. I'm used to being blamed for being too "thin-skinned" or too "sensitive". I heard it all, growing up. Trust me. Guess what? Such talk didn't make me stronger. It just led me to hate myself even more.
So now I'm a six-foot-tall behemoth and as timid as a mouse.
Sorry for the derail.
posted by beth at 12:11 AM on November 15, 2006
Sex is not a basic human need? Maslow's hierarchy is a model, and a flawed one at that. One of the key differentiators of living versus non-living things is the drive to pro-create, in fact many species ONLY role in life is to procreate - they only live long enough to reproduce, then they die. I am not talking about love or acceptance, thats obviously not the same thing. So I guess, I can agree with the second half of your post only, bilabial.
stinkycheese nailed it multiple times. The guy came on to her in the supermarket, he didn't follow her home, he didn't persist after being told to stop, he didn't do anything that would warrant an irrational response. Those that argue for her to come up with a reasonable negative response and to learn to deal have it right. Dialing 911, getting help form the manager, asking for an escort. spraying the guy with piss or mace. Sheesh. These responses say more about the poster than about the situation or the guy in question.
My heart goes out to the poor women who are so attractive that they have to deal with this so much. Try being ugly in today's world.
posted by sfts2 at 6:12 AM on November 15, 2006
stinkycheese nailed it multiple times. The guy came on to her in the supermarket, he didn't follow her home, he didn't persist after being told to stop, he didn't do anything that would warrant an irrational response. Those that argue for her to come up with a reasonable negative response and to learn to deal have it right. Dialing 911, getting help form the manager, asking for an escort. spraying the guy with piss or mace. Sheesh. These responses say more about the poster than about the situation or the guy in question.
My heart goes out to the poor women who are so attractive that they have to deal with this so much. Try being ugly in today's world.
posted by sfts2 at 6:12 AM on November 15, 2006
There's a BIG difference between behavior that says, "I think you're cute" and that which says, "You're nothing more than your vagina" or "Because you're female, you don't have the right to be left alone". Women constantly get the last two, no matter what we look like or how we are dressed.
posted by brujita at 7:05 AM on November 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by brujita at 7:05 AM on November 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
When you say, "Anyone who is persuing social interaction with someone who is clearly giving signals they don't want to be bothered is harassing that person" - you suggest that men should be more attentive to women's signals, and how they're feeling.
Not caring about someone being lonely and not caring about someone being frightened because of your actions are entirely different things.
I suggest that EVERYONE be more attentive to whether they are making someone else uncomfortable by their actions. I'm getting the implication that it's the woman's fault for not being more attentive to the man's lonliness. Bullshit.
She doesn't have to give a shit about people harassing her. I don't give a shit if a man is lonely - if I want to not be bothered, I have that right, and he should step the fuck off.
posted by agregoli at 7:29 AM on November 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
Not caring about someone being lonely and not caring about someone being frightened because of your actions are entirely different things.
I suggest that EVERYONE be more attentive to whether they are making someone else uncomfortable by their actions. I'm getting the implication that it's the woman's fault for not being more attentive to the man's lonliness. Bullshit.
She doesn't have to give a shit about people harassing her. I don't give a shit if a man is lonely - if I want to not be bothered, I have that right, and he should step the fuck off.
posted by agregoli at 7:29 AM on November 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
To say there are overreactions in this thread wins understatement of the year. If I were single this thread would absolutely terrify me.
Do women think that every phrase uttered to them by a stranger in public (or Publix) is at best an attempted pickup line or at worst a possible rape attempt?
I've had casual conversations with people (almost always women) at the grocery store over things as varied as a new product, where do you find the slivered almonds, don't buy that it stains the carpet, and look, Bigfoot married a space alien.
Were all these women horrified and secretly fearing I was going to follow them out to the parking lot to abduct them? They didn't seem particularly worried at the time.
I don't want to go so far as to say the posters above are lying by saying it happens to them every day, or "every block" as one said... but that stretches credibility. If that is true, then you need to move, because you live in some sort of sexual predator halfway neighborhood.
I'm like drstein above, I've never actually witnessed this sort of caddish behavior outside of a bar or frat party. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it seems as if it were a cross-country epidemic like most of the comments from women are suggesting, it would be a bit more noticable.
Is it ever okay for a guy to speak to a woman uninvited in public? Should I, just as an outgoing person, truly expect a "Fuck off, pervert" or better yet a physical assualt via karate or pepper spray for asking a girl if they know how to tell if mangos are ripe? Because I don't know, and if I ever need to buy mangos, I might ask someone, and I need to know if I should wear protective eyewear/headgear/crotchgear.
And something with the original poster's story doesn't wash. I don't know what... but it just doesn't.
Also, I find it fascinating the perceived frequency of these things. My wife would be considered attractive by most anyone's assessment (Cheerleader, Homecoming Queen, Beauty Pagents, etc) and she says things like this have happened to her "a handful" of times in her entire life. Hardly an epidemic.
Maybe I just live in nice places. Atlanta is an atypical southern town as it is experiencing hyper growth fed almost exclusively by people moving in from elsewhere.
posted by Ynoxas at 1:36 PM on November 15, 2006
Do women think that every phrase uttered to them by a stranger in public (or Publix) is at best an attempted pickup line or at worst a possible rape attempt?
I've had casual conversations with people (almost always women) at the grocery store over things as varied as a new product, where do you find the slivered almonds, don't buy that it stains the carpet, and look, Bigfoot married a space alien.
Were all these women horrified and secretly fearing I was going to follow them out to the parking lot to abduct them? They didn't seem particularly worried at the time.
I don't want to go so far as to say the posters above are lying by saying it happens to them every day, or "every block" as one said... but that stretches credibility. If that is true, then you need to move, because you live in some sort of sexual predator halfway neighborhood.
I'm like drstein above, I've never actually witnessed this sort of caddish behavior outside of a bar or frat party. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it seems as if it were a cross-country epidemic like most of the comments from women are suggesting, it would be a bit more noticable.
Is it ever okay for a guy to speak to a woman uninvited in public? Should I, just as an outgoing person, truly expect a "Fuck off, pervert" or better yet a physical assualt via karate or pepper spray for asking a girl if they know how to tell if mangos are ripe? Because I don't know, and if I ever need to buy mangos, I might ask someone, and I need to know if I should wear protective eyewear/headgear/crotchgear.
And something with the original poster's story doesn't wash. I don't know what... but it just doesn't.
Also, I find it fascinating the perceived frequency of these things. My wife would be considered attractive by most anyone's assessment (Cheerleader, Homecoming Queen, Beauty Pagents, etc) and she says things like this have happened to her "a handful" of times in her entire life. Hardly an epidemic.
Maybe I just live in nice places. Atlanta is an atypical southern town as it is experiencing hyper growth fed almost exclusively by people moving in from elsewhere.
posted by Ynoxas at 1:36 PM on November 15, 2006
If you want not to be bothered, the proper response to a first approach is not to say "fuck off." That virtually assures the continuation of the encounter.
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:49 PM on November 15, 2006
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:49 PM on November 15, 2006
I've had casual conversations with people (almost always women) at the grocery store over things as varied as a new product, where do you find the slivered almonds, don't buy that it stains the carpet, and look, Bigfoot married a space alien.
This is fine. Do you see the difference between this sort of normal small talk and saying, out-of-the-blue, "I wonder if your husband would mind if I took *you* home with me." Ask about mangos freely. If you're asking about mangos and not sex, it'll be obvious, and you'll be in no danger from shy women freaking out on you.
posted by desuetude at 1:56 PM on November 15, 2006
This is fine. Do you see the difference between this sort of normal small talk and saying, out-of-the-blue, "I wonder if your husband would mind if I took *you* home with me." Ask about mangos freely. If you're asking about mangos and not sex, it'll be obvious, and you'll be in no danger from shy women freaking out on you.
posted by desuetude at 1:56 PM on November 15, 2006
One reads "suggestions" such as those made by Methylviolet (and others) and weeps for the human race.
The old dude asked if her husband would mind if he took her home. He deserves nothing more than pity, and nothing less than a kick to the balls. Period.
posted by weirdoactor at 2:09 PM on November 15, 2006
The old dude asked if her husband would mind if he took her home. He deserves nothing more than pity, and nothing less than a kick to the balls. Period.
posted by weirdoactor at 2:09 PM on November 15, 2006
Uh, what?
Suggesting tolerance makes you weep for the human race? Whereas a dumb flirty remark gets a kick in the balls? I mean, hey, kick all the balls you want, but if you're going to go weeping for the human race I'd think it'd be the other way.
posted by Methylviolet at 4:25 PM on November 15, 2006
Suggesting tolerance makes you weep for the human race? Whereas a dumb flirty remark gets a kick in the balls? I mean, hey, kick all the balls you want, but if you're going to go weeping for the human race I'd think it'd be the other way.
posted by Methylviolet at 4:25 PM on November 15, 2006
I'm all for tolerance of so-called "dumb flirty remarks". Not so much the sexual harassment of strangers. The scary old man in question was not "flirting", he was committing an unwelcome verbal assault.
"Uh, what", indeed. You’ll no doubt be pleased to know that I am now I'm weeping only for you…more specifically for your inability to tell the difference between “dumb flirting” and overly aggressive pre-rape banter.
posted by weirdoactor at 11:34 AM on November 16, 2006
"Uh, what", indeed. You’ll no doubt be pleased to know that I am now I'm weeping only for you…more specifically for your inability to tell the difference between “dumb flirting” and overly aggressive pre-rape banter.
posted by weirdoactor at 11:34 AM on November 16, 2006
your inability to tell the difference between “dumb flirting” and overly aggressive pre-rape banter.
Ah, and you you have the power to ascertain that a stupid remark in the produce aisle -- as reported by a third party, no less -- definitively equals "aggressive pre-rape banter"? In other words, you know for a fact that the man in the grocery store was planning on raping the OP's wife, do you? Amazing.
posted by scody at 12:03 PM on November 16, 2006
Ah, and you you have the power to ascertain that a stupid remark in the produce aisle -- as reported by a third party, no less -- definitively equals "aggressive pre-rape banter"? In other words, you know for a fact that the man in the grocery store was planning on raping the OP's wife, do you? Amazing.
posted by scody at 12:03 PM on November 16, 2006
and overly aggressive pre-rape banter.
You can't be serious.
You really, truly, believe that this one sentence was merely a prolog to sexual assualt in the produce aisle? You literally, truly mean that?
Why wasn't she raped then? Seriously, if this was "overly aggressive pre-rape banter" then how did she escape without so much as a struggle?
Also, sexual harrassment and sexual assault are two very different things. Coincidentally, this constituted neither.
posted by Ynoxas at 12:17 PM on November 16, 2006
You can't be serious.
You really, truly, believe that this one sentence was merely a prolog to sexual assualt in the produce aisle? You literally, truly mean that?
Why wasn't she raped then? Seriously, if this was "overly aggressive pre-rape banter" then how did she escape without so much as a struggle?
Also, sexual harrassment and sexual assault are two very different things. Coincidentally, this constituted neither.
posted by Ynoxas at 12:17 PM on November 16, 2006
and you you have the power to ascertain that a stupid remark in the produce aisle -- as reported by a third party, no less -- definitively equals "aggressive pre-rape banter"?
Did I state as such?
In other words, you know for a fact that the man in the grocery store was planning on raping the OP's wife, do you?
For a fact? No.
Amazing
Thank you!
Here's what I CAN do: using my eyes for what we call "reading" the "words" written by the OP, I can deduce that, based on the reported WORDS used by the scary old man (AND ON THAT INFORMATION ALONE) that he was not inviting her over for frickin' tea. He "not *quite* followed" a person with whom he was NOT acquainted around the store, her" approached, and then asked a rude/highly inappropriate question. Plus, he's OLD (ergo, HAS BEEN ON THE FUCKING PLANET FOR MORE THAN A WEEK), so he should know better. Was he seriously asking? Have you heard of the "Theory of Ninety Nine"? This is where a desperate individual asks one hundred people to have sex with them; positing that if only ONE person in the one hundred asks says yes, the “experiment” is a “success”. Also, I don’t think he was going to rape her; but do you positively, for a certainty know that he WASN’T GOING TO DO SO? It’s kind of hard to prove a negative. If such an individual spoke that way to you, or your sister, your mother, your aunt, your grandmother, a female friend…how would you feel? Would you be amused? Or perhaps angry? Violated?
Believe me; I’m not some PC soldier, or a proponent of chivalry. I simply believe that people should be able to be out and about without having to deal with such comments. Period.
posted by weirdoactor at 12:28 PM on November 16, 2006
Did I state as such?
In other words, you know for a fact that the man in the grocery store was planning on raping the OP's wife, do you?
For a fact? No.
Amazing
Thank you!
Here's what I CAN do: using my eyes for what we call "reading" the "words" written by the OP, I can deduce that, based on the reported WORDS used by the scary old man (AND ON THAT INFORMATION ALONE) that he was not inviting her over for frickin' tea. He "not *quite* followed" a person with whom he was NOT acquainted around the store, her" approached, and then asked a rude/highly inappropriate question. Plus, he's OLD (ergo, HAS BEEN ON THE FUCKING PLANET FOR MORE THAN A WEEK), so he should know better. Was he seriously asking? Have you heard of the "Theory of Ninety Nine"? This is where a desperate individual asks one hundred people to have sex with them; positing that if only ONE person in the one hundred asks says yes, the “experiment” is a “success”. Also, I don’t think he was going to rape her; but do you positively, for a certainty know that he WASN’T GOING TO DO SO? It’s kind of hard to prove a negative. If such an individual spoke that way to you, or your sister, your mother, your aunt, your grandmother, a female friend…how would you feel? Would you be amused? Or perhaps angry? Violated?
Believe me; I’m not some PC soldier, or a proponent of chivalry. I simply believe that people should be able to be out and about without having to deal with such comments. Period.
posted by weirdoactor at 12:28 PM on November 16, 2006
You can't be serious.
Oh, but I am.
You really, truly, believe that this one sentence was merely a prolog to sexual assualt in the produce aisle? You literally, truly mean that?
He wasn’t offering to carry her groceries, or help her pick out a melon. He followed her around the store, and then asked, point blank, if her husband would mind if her took her home with him. Why did he want to take her home? Did he need help moving a couch?
Why wasn't she raped then?
You’d probably have to ask Old Creepy Guy that.
Seriously, if this was "overly aggressive pre-rape banter" then how did she escape without so much as a struggle?
Again, ask Old Creepy Guy. If you dare.
Also, sexual harrassment and sexual assault are two very different things.
Yes, they are different. But not unrelated. One can be a precursor to the other.
Coincidentally, this constituted neither.
And this is your opinion, as a law enforcement professional/lawyer/judge in Atlanta, Georgia? IANAL (or cop, or judge), but I’m willing to bet a week’s salary that stalking and making unwelcome sexual comments would at the very least be harassment under Georgia law, perhaps even under Atlanta city ordinances. If I were the responding officer, I’d take down his info, and give him a written warning, with no ticket or arrest. But I’d make sure that the warning got into the system. No one acts like that “casually”. I’ll bet if you showed his picture around to in the store’s area/neighborhood, you’d see a pattern.
Full disclosure: One of my side gigs is teaching self-defense courses, mostly to women, and most of them are rape/sexual assault survivors. I myself was raped as a child. I counsel rape survivors, and talk about how the rapes occurred, and about tactics for preventing them. This is a subject about which I feel strongly, and I admit to not being all that objective about situations such as these. This creepy old guy might be “harmless”. But his words and actions point to him not being harmless, not at all. If he's not already a predator, he's well on his way to becoming one.
posted by weirdoactor at 12:43 PM on November 16, 2006 [1 favorite]
Oh, but I am.
You really, truly, believe that this one sentence was merely a prolog to sexual assualt in the produce aisle? You literally, truly mean that?
He wasn’t offering to carry her groceries, or help her pick out a melon. He followed her around the store, and then asked, point blank, if her husband would mind if her took her home with him. Why did he want to take her home? Did he need help moving a couch?
Why wasn't she raped then?
You’d probably have to ask Old Creepy Guy that.
Seriously, if this was "overly aggressive pre-rape banter" then how did she escape without so much as a struggle?
Again, ask Old Creepy Guy. If you dare.
Also, sexual harrassment and sexual assault are two very different things.
Yes, they are different. But not unrelated. One can be a precursor to the other.
Coincidentally, this constituted neither.
And this is your opinion, as a law enforcement professional/lawyer/judge in Atlanta, Georgia? IANAL (or cop, or judge), but I’m willing to bet a week’s salary that stalking and making unwelcome sexual comments would at the very least be harassment under Georgia law, perhaps even under Atlanta city ordinances. If I were the responding officer, I’d take down his info, and give him a written warning, with no ticket or arrest. But I’d make sure that the warning got into the system. No one acts like that “casually”. I’ll bet if you showed his picture around to in the store’s area/neighborhood, you’d see a pattern.
Full disclosure: One of my side gigs is teaching self-defense courses, mostly to women, and most of them are rape/sexual assault survivors. I myself was raped as a child. I counsel rape survivors, and talk about how the rapes occurred, and about tactics for preventing them. This is a subject about which I feel strongly, and I admit to not being all that objective about situations such as these. This creepy old guy might be “harmless”. But his words and actions point to him not being harmless, not at all. If he's not already a predator, he's well on his way to becoming one.
posted by weirdoactor at 12:43 PM on November 16, 2006 [1 favorite]
If such an individual spoke that way to you, or your sister, your mother, your aunt, your grandmother, a female friend…how would you feel? Would you be amused? Or perhaps angry? Violated?
I do get spoken to that way. My sister gets spoken to that way. My mom gets spoken to that way. My friends get spoken to that way. Because we're women in a sexist society and we deal with it our whole lives -- so thanks, but I'm a little past the Women's Studies 101 lecture. (And, incidentally, depending on the circumstances and context, it might be amusing, or it might be infuriating, or it might be threatening.) But, as I said above (and have discussed elsewhere on AskMe), I've been hit on, I've been sexually harassed, and I've been sexually assaulted over the course of my life, so count me in as one rape survivor who is perfectly aware that sexism exists on a continuum.
I simply believe that people should be able to be out and about without having to deal with such comments. Period.
Of course we should -- and if you think, for a split second, that any of us (both male or female) advocating for a more measured response in this thread don't agree on that score, than you need to work on either your reading comprehension or your "with me or agin' me" view of the world. Such a goal of living in a world in which women are not harrassed is not served by collapsing the distinctions between all behaviors and motivations into potential rape. To oversimplify the complex issues of sexism, gender, behavior, and violence, in fact, actually does men and women alike a grave disservice.
posted by scody at 1:03 PM on November 16, 2006
I do get spoken to that way. My sister gets spoken to that way. My mom gets spoken to that way. My friends get spoken to that way. Because we're women in a sexist society and we deal with it our whole lives -- so thanks, but I'm a little past the Women's Studies 101 lecture. (And, incidentally, depending on the circumstances and context, it might be amusing, or it might be infuriating, or it might be threatening.) But, as I said above (and have discussed elsewhere on AskMe), I've been hit on, I've been sexually harassed, and I've been sexually assaulted over the course of my life, so count me in as one rape survivor who is perfectly aware that sexism exists on a continuum.
I simply believe that people should be able to be out and about without having to deal with such comments. Period.
Of course we should -- and if you think, for a split second, that any of us (both male or female) advocating for a more measured response in this thread don't agree on that score, than you need to work on either your reading comprehension or your "with me or agin' me" view of the world. Such a goal of living in a world in which women are not harrassed is not served by collapsing the distinctions between all behaviors and motivations into potential rape. To oversimplify the complex issues of sexism, gender, behavior, and violence, in fact, actually does men and women alike a grave disservice.
posted by scody at 1:03 PM on November 16, 2006
Believe me; I'm not the one "oversimplifying" here. I'm the one advocating for safety/trusting one's instincts above trusting the motives of a sexually aggressive stranger. I would classify viewing the world in a rather defeatist "the world is a sexist and unchangeable place, oh well!" to be "oversimplifying to an extreme, and I fear for your safety, and indeed, for your progeny. I am not "collapsing the distinctions between all behaviors and motivations into potential rape". I have taken ONE extreme example (old creepy guy follows woman around store, makes suggestive comment) and posited that he is not harmless, and should be treated with caution, not amusement. Such behavior exists for a variety of reasons, but it persists BECAUSE it is tolerated. When we tolerate such behavior, it becomes acceptable. When we do not accept such behavior, and indeed fight AGAINST it, we may not “win”, but we make a dent. Maybe not a huge dent, but a dent, nonetheless.
Interesting response, scody. Mayhap you could work on your own "reading comprehension/with me or agin' me" view of the world; and then we might be able to understand one another. Or not.
posted by weirdoactor at 1:14 PM on November 16, 2006
Interesting response, scody. Mayhap you could work on your own "reading comprehension/with me or agin' me" view of the world; and then we might be able to understand one another. Or not.
posted by weirdoactor at 1:14 PM on November 16, 2006
Mod note: please take continued derails to metatalk, this is getting way off topic
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:14 PM on November 16, 2006
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 2:14 PM on November 16, 2006
I find it fascinating the perceived frequency of these things. My wife would be considered attractive by most anyone's assessment ... and she says things like this have happened to her "a handful" of times in her entire life. Hardly an epidemic.
As a professional woman over 40, with a car rather than a bus pass these days, I am very pleased to no longer be harrassed very frequently. If this were my only experience, I might think, "wow, how weird, I don't know what everyone's talking about."
But as a young woman, with less confidence and power, who traveled daily in cities alone and on public transit, sometimes late at night, I must tell you -- not "perceived frequency" -- actual and nearly daily frequency.
Your own anecdotal experience via your wife does not mean that the rest of us our somehow delusional.
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 6:16 PM on November 16, 2006
As a professional woman over 40, with a car rather than a bus pass these days, I am very pleased to no longer be harrassed very frequently. If this were my only experience, I might think, "wow, how weird, I don't know what everyone's talking about."
But as a young woman, with less confidence and power, who traveled daily in cities alone and on public transit, sometimes late at night, I must tell you -- not "perceived frequency" -- actual and nearly daily frequency.
Your own anecdotal experience via your wife does not mean that the rest of us our somehow delusional.
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 6:16 PM on November 16, 2006
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by jerseygirl at 12:36 PM on November 13, 2006 [1 favorite]