Understand my relative's attitude toward money and houseguests
February 8, 2025 5:48 AM Subscribe
My in-law Beth approaches money in a way that I can't imagine myself doing, and I'd like to understand her mentality. Also, she insistently invites me to be a houseguest for several days, but then makes demeaning comments about my life. That's not something I would do either. Can you help me understand her better?
I'm confused by my in-law Beth who thinks very differently than I do. I'm going to include many details because I'm not sure which ones are the most relevant.
My in-law Beth is in her early 40s. She has three young kids, one of whom is special needs. She has always treated me and my husband in a hot/cold way. In terms of nice gestures, she says often that she loves us, and she invited us to be houseguests when we visited her city. When we took her up on her offer, she was a considerate hostess and prepared her spare bedroom in a cozy way, cooked for us, and went to see sights with us.
However, she has made snide comments during all the years I've known her. She said that my wedding "didn't count as a real wedding" because we had a non-traditional ceremony. She mocked my husband for exercising daily by saying in a sarcastic tone of voice that "his idea of an exciting Friday night is the gym". She asked whether it was time yet for us to upgrade to a bigger apartment, and smirked when I said I like our apartment and hate moving. Sometimes when I post in the family group chat about a milestone in my geeky hobbies, she immediately spams the chat with photos of her kids being cute, so that the conversation is diverted and never returns to my topic.
Beth claimed that my mother-in-law had devastating postpartum depression and that my father-in-law is terrified about how his body is aging. Later I asked them, and they both denied saying these things. My husband said these statements would be completely out of character for his parents. It seems like Beth may be projecting from herself.
A couple years ago, Beth asked about my work plans. I told her that my husband and I follow the FIRE movement, and we've been saving for years in order to retire early. After carefully calculating our expenses and savings, we're now gradually ramping down our hours and are on track to early retirement. Beth expressed interest in FIRE, and I sent her some information.
Shortly afterwards, Beth said that she and her husband have adopted the FIRE movement and that they're going into early retirement right now. They had received an inheritance, and they decided to live off of that. They both quit their jobs. I congratulated them.
Last year, I tried to talk to her about our shared interest in FIRE, and I discovered that she did not understand the tenets of FIRE. They are spending 15% of their money every year, which is far above the FIRE recommendation. She said it's fine because they've invested in mutual funds that have grown by more than 15% the past couple of years, and she's optimistic that it can go on this way forever. I said she cannot rely on a mutual fund returning 15% forever. She seemed nervous but covered it up by laughing and saying she's "not as neurotic" as me. Beth said she could just go back to work if necessary. However, her and her husband's past job searches have already been challenging, and it seems like a many-years-long employment gap and potential ageism would make it even tougher.
I'm planning to temporarily put a greater distance between me and Beth because I think that might be healthier for both of us. However, I'd still like to develop a better understanding of her mentality, because it's so different from mine that I'm confused by it.
My specific questions:
1. What is the psychology of insistently wanting to host us as houseguests but then making rude comments about our lives? I only offer to let people stay in my home if I really like them. If I dislike someone's life enough to make numerous derogatory comments, I would not insist that they stay in my home for several days. Can you help me understand what might fuel this behavior?
2. What leads someone to be this carefree with money, and do they not feel stressed about how they'll provide for their three kids if their plan goes south? I'm a planner and could never imagine myself throwing caution to the wind like this for years. I'd like to understand this better, so that I don't make inaccurate assumptions. Is this similar to how people eat an unhealthy diet for years, even though they're aware it will eventually affect their health?
3. I'm worried that if her plan fails, she or her husband may end up asking us for money. My concern is partly because I don't understand her money mindset and can't predict what she would do (hence question 2 above). I would be annoyed if they ignored my advice, got themselves into a financial quagmire, and then wanted us to bail them out. Is there anything I can say now to reduce the likelihood of them asking us for money later if their plan doesn't pan out? I understand that I can always say no if the time comes, but I'd rather reduce the likelihood of being asked if possible.
Thank you.
I'm confused by my in-law Beth who thinks very differently than I do. I'm going to include many details because I'm not sure which ones are the most relevant.
My in-law Beth is in her early 40s. She has three young kids, one of whom is special needs. She has always treated me and my husband in a hot/cold way. In terms of nice gestures, she says often that she loves us, and she invited us to be houseguests when we visited her city. When we took her up on her offer, she was a considerate hostess and prepared her spare bedroom in a cozy way, cooked for us, and went to see sights with us.
However, she has made snide comments during all the years I've known her. She said that my wedding "didn't count as a real wedding" because we had a non-traditional ceremony. She mocked my husband for exercising daily by saying in a sarcastic tone of voice that "his idea of an exciting Friday night is the gym". She asked whether it was time yet for us to upgrade to a bigger apartment, and smirked when I said I like our apartment and hate moving. Sometimes when I post in the family group chat about a milestone in my geeky hobbies, she immediately spams the chat with photos of her kids being cute, so that the conversation is diverted and never returns to my topic.
Beth claimed that my mother-in-law had devastating postpartum depression and that my father-in-law is terrified about how his body is aging. Later I asked them, and they both denied saying these things. My husband said these statements would be completely out of character for his parents. It seems like Beth may be projecting from herself.
A couple years ago, Beth asked about my work plans. I told her that my husband and I follow the FIRE movement, and we've been saving for years in order to retire early. After carefully calculating our expenses and savings, we're now gradually ramping down our hours and are on track to early retirement. Beth expressed interest in FIRE, and I sent her some information.
Shortly afterwards, Beth said that she and her husband have adopted the FIRE movement and that they're going into early retirement right now. They had received an inheritance, and they decided to live off of that. They both quit their jobs. I congratulated them.
Last year, I tried to talk to her about our shared interest in FIRE, and I discovered that she did not understand the tenets of FIRE. They are spending 15% of their money every year, which is far above the FIRE recommendation. She said it's fine because they've invested in mutual funds that have grown by more than 15% the past couple of years, and she's optimistic that it can go on this way forever. I said she cannot rely on a mutual fund returning 15% forever. She seemed nervous but covered it up by laughing and saying she's "not as neurotic" as me. Beth said she could just go back to work if necessary. However, her and her husband's past job searches have already been challenging, and it seems like a many-years-long employment gap and potential ageism would make it even tougher.
I'm planning to temporarily put a greater distance between me and Beth because I think that might be healthier for both of us. However, I'd still like to develop a better understanding of her mentality, because it's so different from mine that I'm confused by it.
My specific questions:
1. What is the psychology of insistently wanting to host us as houseguests but then making rude comments about our lives? I only offer to let people stay in my home if I really like them. If I dislike someone's life enough to make numerous derogatory comments, I would not insist that they stay in my home for several days. Can you help me understand what might fuel this behavior?
2. What leads someone to be this carefree with money, and do they not feel stressed about how they'll provide for their three kids if their plan goes south? I'm a planner and could never imagine myself throwing caution to the wind like this for years. I'd like to understand this better, so that I don't make inaccurate assumptions. Is this similar to how people eat an unhealthy diet for years, even though they're aware it will eventually affect their health?
3. I'm worried that if her plan fails, she or her husband may end up asking us for money. My concern is partly because I don't understand her money mindset and can't predict what she would do (hence question 2 above). I would be annoyed if they ignored my advice, got themselves into a financial quagmire, and then wanted us to bail them out. Is there anything I can say now to reduce the likelihood of them asking us for money later if their plan doesn't pan out? I understand that I can always say no if the time comes, but I'd rather reduce the likelihood of being asked if possible.
Thank you.
Best answer: 1. What is the psychology of insistently wanting to host us as houseguests but then making rude comments about our lives?
A captive audience.
2. What leads someone to be this carefree with money
Many people have poor math skills and most people are bad at future planning.
3. I'm worried that if her plan fails, she or her husband may end up asking us for money
You and your spouse both need to agree that you're unequivocally on the same page about this and practice saying "I'm sorry that won't be possible" with each other over and over and over so you're prepared. Until such a time, stop talking about money with her family so she forgets that you have it.
posted by phunniemee at 6:34 AM on February 8 [17 favorites]
A captive audience.
2. What leads someone to be this carefree with money
Many people have poor math skills and most people are bad at future planning.
3. I'm worried that if her plan fails, she or her husband may end up asking us for money
You and your spouse both need to agree that you're unequivocally on the same page about this and practice saying "I'm sorry that won't be possible" with each other over and over and over so you're prepared. Until such a time, stop talking about money with her family so she forgets that you have it.
posted by phunniemee at 6:34 AM on February 8 [17 favorites]
1. Some people just get off on being bullies, pure and simple. Sometimes it’s related to behavior that they know (eg abused as a child), sometimes it’s bad chemistry. Or both.
2. My mother is like this. She was raised rich but never got over the fact that money should be just handed to her, even after she married a non rich spouse. She spent my childhood spending down her inheritance, while instilling in me that we were always broke. But she only worked when she felt like it and lived on the equity of their house and my father’s life insurance. She is now 84 and still has a modest mortgage, and gets handouts from her brother. (I am 55 and have a smaller mortgage with 5 years left.)
She also is #1, she can be very bullying when she wants to. Y’know that toddler thing, where toddlers behave worse with their loved ones because they feel safer? My mother does that. She constantly criticizes people’s choices because they are not her choices and she feels safe speaking her mind.
3. Thanks to Metafilter <3 I have learned to set good boundaries and just repeat “that won’t be possible,” as discussed above.
posted by Melismata at 6:57 AM on February 8 [2 favorites]
2. My mother is like this. She was raised rich but never got over the fact that money should be just handed to her, even after she married a non rich spouse. She spent my childhood spending down her inheritance, while instilling in me that we were always broke. But she only worked when she felt like it and lived on the equity of their house and my father’s life insurance. She is now 84 and still has a modest mortgage, and gets handouts from her brother. (I am 55 and have a smaller mortgage with 5 years left.)
She also is #1, she can be very bullying when she wants to. Y’know that toddler thing, where toddlers behave worse with their loved ones because they feel safer? My mother does that. She constantly criticizes people’s choices because they are not her choices and she feels safe speaking her mind.
3. Thanks to Metafilter <3 I have learned to set good boundaries and just repeat “that won’t be possible,” as discussed above.
posted by Melismata at 6:57 AM on February 8 [2 favorites]
What is the psychology of insistently wanting to host us as houseguests but then making rude comments about our lives?
Good intentions/a good heart but not the most thoughtful brain?
I've been watching Fallet (a spoof of scandi-noir procedurals). There's a scene where a Swedish detective and her new British partner go to a restaurant in her old hometown, which she managed to leave when she grew up and which she hates. The waitress remembers her, and talks to her in a way that reads as extremely sarcastic and mean. After she's gone, the British partner says something concerned, like "wow, she was very rude to you." The Swedish detective, who has been making it clear to everyone much she hates the town and everybody in it, looks at him in surprise and says "nah, that's just the way she talks! She's actually one of the nicest people here."
Maybe the things you read as being digs at people aren't really digs at people. Who knows.
posted by trig at 6:58 AM on February 8 [18 favorites]
Good intentions/a good heart but not the most thoughtful brain?
I've been watching Fallet (a spoof of scandi-noir procedurals). There's a scene where a Swedish detective and her new British partner go to a restaurant in her old hometown, which she managed to leave when she grew up and which she hates. The waitress remembers her, and talks to her in a way that reads as extremely sarcastic and mean. After she's gone, the British partner says something concerned, like "wow, she was very rude to you." The Swedish detective, who has been making it clear to everyone much she hates the town and everybody in it, looks at him in surprise and says "nah, that's just the way she talks! She's actually one of the nicest people here."
Maybe the things you read as being digs at people aren't really digs at people. Who knows.
posted by trig at 6:58 AM on February 8 [18 favorites]
Best answer: Maybe weak ego boundaries.
She consistently feels inadequate, unconnected and unloved. So she keeps trying to connect by being a loving person, inviting you to visit and hoping you will feed her ego through your gratitude and admiration. She wants external validation and connection. However even if you are the world's best house guests, her ego deficiencies recur so when she sees something to admire about you, such as a healthy lifestyle, it makes her feel inadequate by comparison and she reflexively tries to cut you down.
You're good at finances, and headed towards being comfortably off? She wants to do that too, so that she won't feel worm eaten inside about not retiring young and rich when she is afraid you will. The weak ego boundaries makes her conflate her financial situation with yours and makes her conflate her feelings about her parents with her parents' actual situation. Diagnosing her mother with devastating postpartum depression, perhaps is her way of explaining why inside, she feels like her mother never really loved her, as she can blame the postpartum depression for the lack of connection AND for any of her own ego struggles, blaming it on trauma in infancy.
Turning the conversation away from other people's successes or problems, is pretty typical. If someone else is the centre of attention, she wants to be it and automatically does things that stop her from feeling left out, ignored and inadequate. She may not even plan to derail the convo with the pictures of her picture perfect kids. She may just be posting them because it makes her feel soothed to see how successful she is, and how her family is a credit to her, and not calculating that people will leave the earlier conversation to react to them, but her reaction to someone else being the centre of attention is still that she does something that to makes herself feel better.
You can't know really why someone does things, and what they are feeling inside, especially after you have started to find them exasperating and unpleasant, as there is likely a growing empathy gap. So my armchair diagnosis, is fourth hand, and likely a projection in itself. It's definitely a simplistic explanation, and one which sums her up unkindly and writes her off. But if you are looking for an overarching character flaw to explain who she is in order to dismiss her from your life and your emotions, deciding she has ego deficiency will work.
You're not under any obligation to continue to interact with her, if you are having no fun in her presence. Just keep in mind that she's someone who rubs you the wrong way, and you're entitled to choose to spend your time with people that don't aggravate you. Don't get invested into feeling you understand her completely and that she's a broken contemptible person - because then you could end up being the one who is actually reacting to your own weak ego boundaries. Like most of us she's flailing and has sub optimal social skills. It's enough for you to just want to get out of the range of her flailing.
posted by Jane the Brown at 7:09 AM on February 8 [25 favorites]
She consistently feels inadequate, unconnected and unloved. So she keeps trying to connect by being a loving person, inviting you to visit and hoping you will feed her ego through your gratitude and admiration. She wants external validation and connection. However even if you are the world's best house guests, her ego deficiencies recur so when she sees something to admire about you, such as a healthy lifestyle, it makes her feel inadequate by comparison and she reflexively tries to cut you down.
You're good at finances, and headed towards being comfortably off? She wants to do that too, so that she won't feel worm eaten inside about not retiring young and rich when she is afraid you will. The weak ego boundaries makes her conflate her financial situation with yours and makes her conflate her feelings about her parents with her parents' actual situation. Diagnosing her mother with devastating postpartum depression, perhaps is her way of explaining why inside, she feels like her mother never really loved her, as she can blame the postpartum depression for the lack of connection AND for any of her own ego struggles, blaming it on trauma in infancy.
Turning the conversation away from other people's successes or problems, is pretty typical. If someone else is the centre of attention, she wants to be it and automatically does things that stop her from feeling left out, ignored and inadequate. She may not even plan to derail the convo with the pictures of her picture perfect kids. She may just be posting them because it makes her feel soothed to see how successful she is, and how her family is a credit to her, and not calculating that people will leave the earlier conversation to react to them, but her reaction to someone else being the centre of attention is still that she does something that to makes herself feel better.
You can't know really why someone does things, and what they are feeling inside, especially after you have started to find them exasperating and unpleasant, as there is likely a growing empathy gap. So my armchair diagnosis, is fourth hand, and likely a projection in itself. It's definitely a simplistic explanation, and one which sums her up unkindly and writes her off. But if you are looking for an overarching character flaw to explain who she is in order to dismiss her from your life and your emotions, deciding she has ego deficiency will work.
You're not under any obligation to continue to interact with her, if you are having no fun in her presence. Just keep in mind that she's someone who rubs you the wrong way, and you're entitled to choose to spend your time with people that don't aggravate you. Don't get invested into feeling you understand her completely and that she's a broken contemptible person - because then you could end up being the one who is actually reacting to your own weak ego boundaries. Like most of us she's flailing and has sub optimal social skills. It's enough for you to just want to get out of the range of her flailing.
posted by Jane the Brown at 7:09 AM on February 8 [25 favorites]
Best answer: 1. I think it's possible that the two things (hospitality and unpleasantness) are not linked in the way you think. You said for you, you only like having houseguests over if they are people you like, so there is a discernment and thought process that links the two things. But I think that it's just as likely that she, for whatever reason (upbringing, some kind of cultural modeling) has a sensibility that family should always be invited to stay in one's home (as in that's a good thing to do / bad thing not to do, and there can be different narratives around the goodness and badness therein) -- and, at the same time, how she treats you is the way she treats family, or people in her close orbit, or, honestly, more likely everyone. So for whatever reason, you are in that Venn diagram between people she feels compelled to host (family?) and people she is rude to (probably everyone, or at least everyone she can get away with treating that way).
2. Sounds like a mix of low financial literacy and hyperbolic discounting -- the latter being exactly the same mechanism as you correctly described with regard to people who eat unhealthy food even though they are to some extent aware that it may cause health issues in the future -- the future consequences feel much more distant and abstract than the things one enjoys in the moment.
3. I empathize with your aspiration to calibrate your theory of mind so as to understand her better, that is the kind of aspiration that is familiar to me from my own anxieties. After all, accurate prognostication can help one feel in control of an uncomfortable or a potentially threatening situation. But if you want to be able to predict how she will act in the future to assuage your own anxiety, I think the answer is, you cannot. Even if you could predict perfectly well how her personality and her attitude towards money would cause her to ask / not to ask you and your husband for financial help, you can't anticipate all the contributing factors -- potential pressure from her husband, for example. In your situation I would just try to be emotionally prepared to draw a boundary and say "no" in case you have to.
posted by virve at 7:21 AM on February 8 [8 favorites]
2. Sounds like a mix of low financial literacy and hyperbolic discounting -- the latter being exactly the same mechanism as you correctly described with regard to people who eat unhealthy food even though they are to some extent aware that it may cause health issues in the future -- the future consequences feel much more distant and abstract than the things one enjoys in the moment.
3. I empathize with your aspiration to calibrate your theory of mind so as to understand her better, that is the kind of aspiration that is familiar to me from my own anxieties. After all, accurate prognostication can help one feel in control of an uncomfortable or a potentially threatening situation. But if you want to be able to predict how she will act in the future to assuage your own anxiety, I think the answer is, you cannot. Even if you could predict perfectly well how her personality and her attitude towards money would cause her to ask / not to ask you and your husband for financial help, you can't anticipate all the contributing factors -- potential pressure from her husband, for example. In your situation I would just try to be emotionally prepared to draw a boundary and say "no" in case you have to.
posted by virve at 7:21 AM on February 8 [8 favorites]
Best answer: On top of all the good points made previously: sometimes people off-load hostility from ther direct family members to their in-laws since that feels less risky. In-laws are proverbially a problem; there are countless jokes on the topic. This can lead to problems if you are the fecipient of the hostility. Sometimes your partner will ignore or discount your complaints because they haven't experienced the level of criticism and agression (passive or not) that you have.
posted by BibiRose at 7:28 AM on February 8 [1 favorite]
posted by BibiRose at 7:28 AM on February 8 [1 favorite]
Best answer: >I said she cannot rely on a mutual fund returning 15% forever. She seemed nervous but covered it up by laughing and saying she's "not as neurotic" as me. Beth said she could just go back to work if necessary
When you have attempted to give someone good financial advice and gotten insulted for your trouble, you are forever excused from lending them money. If she asks for money, tell her to stop being so neurotic, and to go back to work if necessary.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 7:35 AM on February 8 [15 favorites]
When you have attempted to give someone good financial advice and gotten insulted for your trouble, you are forever excused from lending them money. If she asks for money, tell her to stop being so neurotic, and to go back to work if necessary.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 7:35 AM on February 8 [15 favorites]
It just seems to me that she's jealous of you, plain and simple. And she has an unpleasant way of showing it.
posted by Dr. Wu at 7:40 AM on February 8 [8 favorites]
posted by Dr. Wu at 7:40 AM on February 8 [8 favorites]
Overall it sounds like she seems a bit lost without a rigid structure. House guests are easy: there are exact rules for how to treat them. It's a ritual, and if she performs it correctly she knows she's on solid ground. But that doesn't mean she understands the underlying principle.
This is echoed in her interaction with FIRE. She can follow the rules to a point, but she doesn't get the underlying philosophy.
Freeform social interaction can be very difficult for people like that. For example, she sees you sharing something you're proud of, so she shares something that she is proud of -- logically that makes sense, but it misses the complexity of human connection. Alternately she expresses her anxiety by lashing out.
---------
I feel like this is different from people who know they're headed for trouble but do it anyway. There are many reasons people do that, but blissful ignorance is not one of them.
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If you are an in-law then it seems likely there are a pair of siblings involved in here somewhere. In your shoes I would have the siblings have a straight talk saying they're concerned about the financial situation and making clear that you guys won't be able to bail them out. That's about all you can do, I think.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:00 AM on February 8 [4 favorites]
This is echoed in her interaction with FIRE. She can follow the rules to a point, but she doesn't get the underlying philosophy.
Freeform social interaction can be very difficult for people like that. For example, she sees you sharing something you're proud of, so she shares something that she is proud of -- logically that makes sense, but it misses the complexity of human connection. Alternately she expresses her anxiety by lashing out.
---------
I feel like this is different from people who know they're headed for trouble but do it anyway. There are many reasons people do that, but blissful ignorance is not one of them.
---------
If you are an in-law then it seems likely there are a pair of siblings involved in here somewhere. In your shoes I would have the siblings have a straight talk saying they're concerned about the financial situation and making clear that you guys won't be able to bail them out. That's about all you can do, I think.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 8:00 AM on February 8 [4 favorites]
> She said that my wedding "didn't count as a real wedding" because we had a non-traditional ceremony.
> saying in a sarcastic tone of voice that "his idea of an exciting Friday night is the gym"
Is it possible she's trying to tease you guys as a way of building intimacy? These sound like things I might say to a very close friend, where the close friend would know 100% I'm kidding, and we'd have a laugh about it, and they'd be expected to tease me back in kind.
I've had this backfire spectacular with a very close friend who (who is neurodivergent) to whom this teasing behavior was seen as abusive. We finally worked this out but it took a while.
posted by soylent00FF00 at 8:16 AM on February 8 [26 favorites]
> saying in a sarcastic tone of voice that "his idea of an exciting Friday night is the gym"
Is it possible she's trying to tease you guys as a way of building intimacy? These sound like things I might say to a very close friend, where the close friend would know 100% I'm kidding, and we'd have a laugh about it, and they'd be expected to tease me back in kind.
I've had this backfire spectacular with a very close friend who (who is neurodivergent) to whom this teasing behavior was seen as abusive. We finally worked this out but it took a while.
posted by soylent00FF00 at 8:16 AM on February 8 [26 favorites]
Best answer: Yeah, to the above - I remember realizing I had a culture clash with someone when it turned out they felt that my sense of humor (the sarcastic, quippy one that had built up in calibration to the friends and family in my social circle) was kind of mean. It wasn't mean; there were no mean intentions; this was how I was used to people talking with each other who genuinely liked and appreciated each other; but everything exists in context and thus I learned different contexts exist. A lot of times it's hard to know if someone's actually cruel or dense, or just speaking in a different language.
posted by trig at 8:42 AM on February 8 [6 favorites]
posted by trig at 8:42 AM on February 8 [6 favorites]
Best answer: 1. She likes having power.
2. Magical thinking about money
3. No. Magical thinking does not respond well to warnings.
I would also ask you to consider that trying to better understand people who treat you badly often comes from a place of wanting to find the right thing to do or say to improve the relationship. It might be better for you to focus on boundaries rather than empathy.
posted by medusa at 9:08 AM on February 8 [3 favorites]
2. Magical thinking about money
3. No. Magical thinking does not respond well to warnings.
I would also ask you to consider that trying to better understand people who treat you badly often comes from a place of wanting to find the right thing to do or say to improve the relationship. It might be better for you to focus on boundaries rather than empathy.
posted by medusa at 9:08 AM on February 8 [3 favorites]
What does your husband think? I ask, because I agree that without knowing the tone and delivery, it's hard to tell if she's just someone who teases to build intimacy or if she was intending to be mean. You might tell her next time something like this happens, "Hey Beth, I'm sure you don't mean anything by it, but could you tease me less?"
And yes, +1 to everyone pointing out that hosting is a formal obligation many people feel for family, whereas being pleasant is a skill not everyone learns (or learns differently).
As for the money issue - is it possible she inherited more than you're aware? Is it possible that she's keen to retire formally given that she has three kids to care for, including a special needs kid? That sounds like a full-time job to me, and she is quite possibly saving money by not working and doing this care work, depending on what her salary was and child care costs in your location. In any case, I think you're castrophizing a bit in terms of worrying that she will face some future economic hardship that you then will be responsible for solving. As someone who has switched careers a few times, there are also certain jobs that anyone who can show up on time and work hard can generally get in a pinch if a really desperate.
posted by coffeecat at 9:20 AM on February 8 [5 favorites]
And yes, +1 to everyone pointing out that hosting is a formal obligation many people feel for family, whereas being pleasant is a skill not everyone learns (or learns differently).
As for the money issue - is it possible she inherited more than you're aware? Is it possible that she's keen to retire formally given that she has three kids to care for, including a special needs kid? That sounds like a full-time job to me, and she is quite possibly saving money by not working and doing this care work, depending on what her salary was and child care costs in your location. In any case, I think you're castrophizing a bit in terms of worrying that she will face some future economic hardship that you then will be responsible for solving. As someone who has switched careers a few times, there are also certain jobs that anyone who can show up on time and work hard can generally get in a pinch if a really desperate.
posted by coffeecat at 9:20 AM on February 8 [5 favorites]
Best answer: I agree with Jane the Brown's comment that "[Beth] consistently feels inadequate, unconnected and unloved. So she keeps trying to connect by being a loving person, inviting you to visit and hoping you will feed her ego through your gratitude and admiration. She wants external validation and connection. However even if you are the world's best house guests, her ego deficiencies recur so when she sees something to admire about you, such as a healthy lifestyle, it makes her feel inadequate by comparison and she reflexively tries to cut you down."
I think this is an extremely, extremely accurate take. I say this hesitantly, because I see some of myself in it, as I see some of myself in your description of Beth. Similar patterns but in different contexts or expressions. That brings me some shame. Shame can make me act out in certain ways to 'solve' it.
To it, I would add, that I personally get socially burned out very quickly. So when I have houseguests, my social skills decline over the time that they are with me. This does NOT excuse being rude, I offer it merely as an additional layer of explanation.
I would also add, that by acting as host Beth may see herself as acting magnanimous, as being sort of above you - you are lucky, in her mind, to be welcome to her house. She has more knowledge of these sights you go see, so maybe she can feel like the in-the-know, popular leader by showing you, etc.
She may not, probably is not, making those choices consciously.
>Is there anything I can say now to reduce the likelihood of them asking us for money later if their plan doesn't pan out?
No, I don't think so. Anything you say now will just plant the seed that you're likely to have money later and that you see yourself as a source; even if you are declining to be that source. The way you handle this comes from a strong marital plan and agreement on how to handle it in the moment, anticipating that there may be guilt trips galore (think of the children!), nasty comments, gossip, rumor spreading, lies, etc.
One strategy I use in my family with 6 siblings where I am not one of the 'popular' ones in the family. If I have something I want to share about my life, I first ask the ones who are eager to monologue about their international travel, about their most recent trip. After they go on about their trips and do a little bit of competitive story telling .... then I might bring up my thing. Ask her how the kids are doing, give her the opening in the group chat. Let her go off. Then share your thing. No you shouldn't have to do it that way but, it could help you feel you have an opportunity to be heard.
posted by fennario at 9:37 AM on February 8 [5 favorites]
I think this is an extremely, extremely accurate take. I say this hesitantly, because I see some of myself in it, as I see some of myself in your description of Beth. Similar patterns but in different contexts or expressions. That brings me some shame. Shame can make me act out in certain ways to 'solve' it.
To it, I would add, that I personally get socially burned out very quickly. So when I have houseguests, my social skills decline over the time that they are with me. This does NOT excuse being rude, I offer it merely as an additional layer of explanation.
I would also add, that by acting as host Beth may see herself as acting magnanimous, as being sort of above you - you are lucky, in her mind, to be welcome to her house. She has more knowledge of these sights you go see, so maybe she can feel like the in-the-know, popular leader by showing you, etc.
She may not, probably is not, making those choices consciously.
>Is there anything I can say now to reduce the likelihood of them asking us for money later if their plan doesn't pan out?
No, I don't think so. Anything you say now will just plant the seed that you're likely to have money later and that you see yourself as a source; even if you are declining to be that source. The way you handle this comes from a strong marital plan and agreement on how to handle it in the moment, anticipating that there may be guilt trips galore (think of the children!), nasty comments, gossip, rumor spreading, lies, etc.
One strategy I use in my family with 6 siblings where I am not one of the 'popular' ones in the family. If I have something I want to share about my life, I first ask the ones who are eager to monologue about their international travel, about their most recent trip. After they go on about their trips and do a little bit of competitive story telling .... then I might bring up my thing. Ask her how the kids are doing, give her the opening in the group chat. Let her go off. Then share your thing. No you shouldn't have to do it that way but, it could help you feel you have an opportunity to be heard.
posted by fennario at 9:37 AM on February 8 [5 favorites]
Best answer: What is the psychology of insistently wanting to host us as houseguests but then making rude comments about our lives?
I think you may be making a connection between these two that doesn't exist. I suspect if you stayed in a hotel or never visited them, she'd still be Beth: weirdly sarcastic and rude, probably this is her family of origin's relationship style. It's likely that she truly likes y'all, but she's just got a somewhat unpleasant personality.
YOU are probably something of the minority with your cautious financial mentality. A lot of people just...aren't. They assume the money will just be there when they need it. Lots of people don't have a very concrete grasp on "future".
You will not die of being asked for money. Anybody can ask you for money. Don't continue to discuss the details of your finances with them, and if they ask in the future say you lost it all in the 2025 crash.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:41 AM on February 8 [13 favorites]
I think you may be making a connection between these two that doesn't exist. I suspect if you stayed in a hotel or never visited them, she'd still be Beth: weirdly sarcastic and rude, probably this is her family of origin's relationship style. It's likely that she truly likes y'all, but she's just got a somewhat unpleasant personality.
YOU are probably something of the minority with your cautious financial mentality. A lot of people just...aren't. They assume the money will just be there when they need it. Lots of people don't have a very concrete grasp on "future".
You will not die of being asked for money. Anybody can ask you for money. Don't continue to discuss the details of your finances with them, and if they ask in the future say you lost it all in the 2025 crash.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:41 AM on February 8 [13 favorites]
The conversational style reminds me of a couple people I know who basically just like talking. It's a way of holding the floor. The teasing/insulting stuff and the claim to "insider knowledge" of your parents-in-law mental state both fit that category, same as posting pictures of their kids as soon as you post pictures of yours. In the case of the people I know I don't think it's consciously trying to grab the spotlight from other people; it's more like they believe participating in conversation means talking and they never learned the listening half. I find it exhausting, but they can still be quite considerate in other ways.
For (2): Who knows? People make bad financial decisions all the time, but there's also always the chance that she's just wrong about expenditures and long term budgeting (because of course she'd say wrong stuff rather than keep quiet, see above), or that they'll correct budgets and behavior before it's a crisis.
For (3):
They haven't asked for financial advice. Don't offer advice that is rooted in your belief that they are fundamentally irresponsible people who will come to you begging for help if they don't shape up. I know you would try not to word it that way--it's why you're doing the Ask!--but that's basically the message you want to send. But the only thing that conversation will do is make a lot of people upset and angry.
Big picture, you may get asked for financial help by a family member one day. It's a fact of life. It may be because they made bad decisions, or it may be out of bad luck, in most families when it happens it's usually both. You'll need to deal with that when the day comes. No matter what you say or do now, the actual decision point is when you see a relative and their family struggling and they ask for help.
I don't know the details of FIRE but I do wonder if part of this is because it includes tight budgeting? Like when you imagine getting hit up for assistance in 10 years, you know you won't be able to afford it without "dipping into the principal", and it's stressing you out because you don't want to imagine this position where you are a person who has the money but says no?
posted by mark k at 10:28 AM on February 8 [1 favorite]
For (2): Who knows? People make bad financial decisions all the time, but there's also always the chance that she's just wrong about expenditures and long term budgeting (because of course she'd say wrong stuff rather than keep quiet, see above), or that they'll correct budgets and behavior before it's a crisis.
For (3):
They haven't asked for financial advice. Don't offer advice that is rooted in your belief that they are fundamentally irresponsible people who will come to you begging for help if they don't shape up. I know you would try not to word it that way--it's why you're doing the Ask!--but that's basically the message you want to send. But the only thing that conversation will do is make a lot of people upset and angry.
Big picture, you may get asked for financial help by a family member one day. It's a fact of life. It may be because they made bad decisions, or it may be out of bad luck, in most families when it happens it's usually both. You'll need to deal with that when the day comes. No matter what you say or do now, the actual decision point is when you see a relative and their family struggling and they ask for help.
I don't know the details of FIRE but I do wonder if part of this is because it includes tight budgeting? Like when you imagine getting hit up for assistance in 10 years, you know you won't be able to afford it without "dipping into the principal", and it's stressing you out because you don't want to imagine this position where you are a person who has the money but says no?
posted by mark k at 10:28 AM on February 8 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I love the whole range of answers here. It's giving me great food for thought.
A few clarifications in reply to your questions:
- My husband does not think Beth was teasing. He thinks either she was being snide, or she was speaking her mind candidly while oblivious to how rude it came across.
- Some of the snide comments were longer than the small part I quoted. For example, the wedding comment was "Let me tell you what people really thought of your wedding. They didn't think it counted as a real wedding. I heard [Relative X] say so." Later I asked Relative X, who denied saying it, and it didn't sound like the type of thing that X would say. Maybe X did say it or it was an edgy sitcom joke that flopped, but it felt different from affectionate sarcasm. I can understand sarcasm in other contexts.
- I'm not merely looking for an excuse in order to dismiss Beth from my life. I veer back and forth between thinking that I'm foolish for letting Beth make snide comments to me for years, vs feeling empathy that perhaps Beth is trying to connect with me and not getting the validation she wants and then lashing out from a place of hurt.
- Re coffeecat's bolded question: Beth and her husband did not decrease their childcare spending when they both quit their jobs. They still pay for fulltime childcare while both of them are not working. But I agree I'm catastrophizing.
- Both I and my husband are vulnerable to guilt trips. This is one reason I'm trying to prevent being asked. Everyone's advice for question 3 has been illuminating.
I greatly appreciate your answers.
posted by cheesecake at 11:22 AM on February 8
A few clarifications in reply to your questions:
- My husband does not think Beth was teasing. He thinks either she was being snide, or she was speaking her mind candidly while oblivious to how rude it came across.
- Some of the snide comments were longer than the small part I quoted. For example, the wedding comment was "Let me tell you what people really thought of your wedding. They didn't think it counted as a real wedding. I heard [Relative X] say so." Later I asked Relative X, who denied saying it, and it didn't sound like the type of thing that X would say. Maybe X did say it or it was an edgy sitcom joke that flopped, but it felt different from affectionate sarcasm. I can understand sarcasm in other contexts.
- I'm not merely looking for an excuse in order to dismiss Beth from my life. I veer back and forth between thinking that I'm foolish for letting Beth make snide comments to me for years, vs feeling empathy that perhaps Beth is trying to connect with me and not getting the validation she wants and then lashing out from a place of hurt.
- Re coffeecat's bolded question: Beth and her husband did not decrease their childcare spending when they both quit their jobs. They still pay for fulltime childcare while both of them are not working. But I agree I'm catastrophizing.
- Both I and my husband are vulnerable to guilt trips. This is one reason I'm trying to prevent being asked. Everyone's advice for question 3 has been illuminating.
I greatly appreciate your answers.
posted by cheesecake at 11:22 AM on February 8
Is there anything I can say now to reduce the likelihood of them asking us for money later if their plan doesn't pan out?
Stop discussing money with her. Like, at all. Don't talk about your finances, don't mention any expenditures, like big trips. If she asks, be vague. "Eh, we managed to make it work eventually but money isn't easy these days, everything's getting more expensive, you know how it is." Stick to the way it's hard but you're scraping by. No details.
If she talks about her own financial plans, nod but don't comment. Change the topic as soon as politely feasible.
You both need to get out of the habit of talking money together, so she'll have no convenient ins to ask for money later.
posted by Omnomnom at 12:23 PM on February 8 [9 favorites]
Stop discussing money with her. Like, at all. Don't talk about your finances, don't mention any expenditures, like big trips. If she asks, be vague. "Eh, we managed to make it work eventually but money isn't easy these days, everything's getting more expensive, you know how it is." Stick to the way it's hard but you're scraping by. No details.
If she talks about her own financial plans, nod but don't comment. Change the topic as soon as politely feasible.
You both need to get out of the habit of talking money together, so she'll have no convenient ins to ask for money later.
posted by Omnomnom at 12:23 PM on February 8 [9 favorites]
Best answer: Both I and my husband are vulnerable to guilt trips
I recommend making resistance to guilt trips your joint project, perhaps with the help of a therapist. It's the one single thing you can do to avoid losing money over of this.
posted by Omnomnom at 12:26 PM on February 8 [6 favorites]
I recommend making resistance to guilt trips your joint project, perhaps with the help of a therapist. It's the one single thing you can do to avoid losing money over of this.
posted by Omnomnom at 12:26 PM on February 8 [6 favorites]
What Jane the Brown said.
Also, raising a special needs child plus two other young children must be completely exhausting, probably sometimes isolating. That could be a really hard life. If she makes snide comments, you could try to ignore them, because they may be coming from a place of stress or being overwhelmed all the time.
And maybe she really didn't want to talk about her post partum depression?
posted by Glinn at 1:03 PM on February 8 [4 favorites]
Also, raising a special needs child plus two other young children must be completely exhausting, probably sometimes isolating. That could be a really hard life. If she makes snide comments, you could try to ignore them, because they may be coming from a place of stress or being overwhelmed all the time.
And maybe she really didn't want to talk about her post partum depression?
posted by Glinn at 1:03 PM on February 8 [4 favorites]
The inventing things others didn't say reminds me of several people I knew professionally - they also always knew the best course of action (one tried to tell me I was eating soup the wrong way, I was thirty!) and loved to imagine grand scenarios of riches and glory. All of them eventually self destructed more or less spectacularly when they acted on their delusions in ways others could verify as untrue, either getting fired for not delivering / lying, or quitting in blackmail attempts.
Different context, but what worked was grey rocking, avoidance and not trusting a word they say about other people without verifying directly. I'd apply the same in a family context.
(If it's indeed the same type, thankfully they don't ask for help - their ego won't let them.)
posted by I claim sanctuary at 1:38 PM on February 8
Different context, but what worked was grey rocking, avoidance and not trusting a word they say about other people without verifying directly. I'd apply the same in a family context.
(If it's indeed the same type, thankfully they don't ask for help - their ego won't let them.)
posted by I claim sanctuary at 1:38 PM on February 8
She seems like a kind of awkward, not very self-aware, not socially astute or empathetic person who is insecure and wants attention. And you seem to be overthinking that her behavior has some meaning and wanting to understand her so you can put her in a box that defends you from her social infelicities. Are you perhaps at bitch-eating-crackers level with her? Is there a way you can let her be her annoying self with some equanimity so it doesn’t bother you so much?
posted by matildaben at 3:04 PM on February 8 [2 favorites]
posted by matildaben at 3:04 PM on February 8 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I can't speak to the other bits, but I'll join the chorus of voices who see no contradiction in #1.
My mum is someone who likes me being mean. She loves me - she just enjoys being mean to me. And she enjoys having people around whom she can be mean to.
The derogatory comments don't have anything to do with any dislike or clash of values. For instance, she was extremely critical when I had long hair, but also very critical of the decision to cut it. In both cases, I had just displayed a noticeable behaviour. It didn't really matter what it was.
One or twice I've said "I don't like it when you say mean things", and she's thought about this, and replied "but you're family. Who can I say these things to if not to you?". When I've pointed out that I don't say mean things back, she says "well, yes. You're very English about that." This is not meant as a compliment.
posted by wattle at 5:41 PM on February 8 [6 favorites]
My mum is someone who likes me being mean. She loves me - she just enjoys being mean to me. And she enjoys having people around whom she can be mean to.
The derogatory comments don't have anything to do with any dislike or clash of values. For instance, she was extremely critical when I had long hair, but also very critical of the decision to cut it. In both cases, I had just displayed a noticeable behaviour. It didn't really matter what it was.
One or twice I've said "I don't like it when you say mean things", and she's thought about this, and replied "but you're family. Who can I say these things to if not to you?". When I've pointed out that I don't say mean things back, she says "well, yes. You're very English about that." This is not meant as a compliment.
posted by wattle at 5:41 PM on February 8 [6 favorites]
With respect to the snide remarks, I have had great success (keeping in mind that I’m an amoral monster) by simply responding:
“I am sorry, but I don’t actually care.”
…and variations thereof. I do still have relationships with the people I’ve said this to, but they have stopped with the remarks after a few go-rounds. To be clear, these are people that are mostly (not entirely) in the “you will interact regardless of personal preferences” category, so YMMV, but I have found it deeply freeing to tell people I don’t care what their opinions are. They then stop telling me about their opinions.
…note, my wording is careful to avoid insults. I simply say their opinions are irrelevant to my conduct, let’s just move on.
posted by aramaic at 9:58 PM on February 8 [5 favorites]
“I am sorry, but I don’t actually care.”
…and variations thereof. I do still have relationships with the people I’ve said this to, but they have stopped with the remarks after a few go-rounds. To be clear, these are people that are mostly (not entirely) in the “you will interact regardless of personal preferences” category, so YMMV, but I have found it deeply freeing to tell people I don’t care what their opinions are. They then stop telling me about their opinions.
…note, my wording is careful to avoid insults. I simply say their opinions are irrelevant to my conduct, let’s just move on.
posted by aramaic at 9:58 PM on February 8 [5 favorites]
I mostly agree with everyone else on Beth’s internal fear of inadequacy. At the same time, I think there’s a world in which it’s possible that the things she has shared with you about other people’s thoughts might be accurate. Postpartum depression, fear of aging, and whether someone thought a wedding wasn’t good enough are not things I would expect a parent-in-law or relative-in-law would share with me honestly, but they might be feelings that they might dump on their daughter/relative who has three kids because people tend think women with children have infinite emotional wells to support everyone else’s issues. This certainly might not be the case with Beth but I want to gently pose the (potentially unlikely) possibility that parents might share something with their daughter that they wouldn’t share with their son (despite this being unfair to all parties) and that someone might in turn share this thing if they were uncomfortable with you not knowing.
posted by donut_princess at 5:46 AM on February 9 [4 favorites]
posted by donut_princess at 5:46 AM on February 9 [4 favorites]
Shortly before Beth comes to you looking for money - when you begin to see some possible signs of poverty in that household, confide with her that that FIRE thing is very difficult, and you have to plan exactly for it, and that it doesn't leave you with ANY SPARE FINANCIAL RESOURCES.
This is likely to be something she will agree with, and she will regard it as an admission that you are struggling too and thus are unable to assist her family. It will make her feel less inadequate about her own bad financial choices. Add a comment or two about your plans to earn post retirement income, with the hobby businesses/freelance work you expect to assume to ensure that you have no shortfall post retirement.
She may tell the entire family that you and your spouse are in dire financial trouble, but she won't come to you for a handout. And that way you will at least know what misinformation about you she is spreading around the family.
Also, get Beth to talk about her family, if you do have to spend any social time with her. It is very likely she comes from a competitive family where the siblings and family members one up each other constantly and this is the source of her behaviour. I know a family of four sisters who started with the wardrobes, then began competing over their life partners, went on to compete about their houses, and their kids, and now late in life are going on cruises competitively. Knowing her background may help you to understand her, but also, get her to do as much of the talking as possible, to avoid triggering her being jealous. She's the right person to be modest and unassuming around. The less you talk about what you are doing and have, the less likely she is to feel she needs to compensate.
And secretly create a small reserve fund for her special needs child, (if you love them enough and other people don't take priority) but don't tell anyone. Even a relatively small stipend can be enough to improve a person's life significantly if you find out that they are struggling with independence once they are an adult. Just being able to include them on your cell phone plan, or to cover their monthly bus pass, could make a big difference.
posted by Jane the Brown at 6:27 AM on February 9
This is likely to be something she will agree with, and she will regard it as an admission that you are struggling too and thus are unable to assist her family. It will make her feel less inadequate about her own bad financial choices. Add a comment or two about your plans to earn post retirement income, with the hobby businesses/freelance work you expect to assume to ensure that you have no shortfall post retirement.
She may tell the entire family that you and your spouse are in dire financial trouble, but she won't come to you for a handout. And that way you will at least know what misinformation about you she is spreading around the family.
Also, get Beth to talk about her family, if you do have to spend any social time with her. It is very likely she comes from a competitive family where the siblings and family members one up each other constantly and this is the source of her behaviour. I know a family of four sisters who started with the wardrobes, then began competing over their life partners, went on to compete about their houses, and their kids, and now late in life are going on cruises competitively. Knowing her background may help you to understand her, but also, get her to do as much of the talking as possible, to avoid triggering her being jealous. She's the right person to be modest and unassuming around. The less you talk about what you are doing and have, the less likely she is to feel she needs to compensate.
And secretly create a small reserve fund for her special needs child, (if you love them enough and other people don't take priority) but don't tell anyone. Even a relatively small stipend can be enough to improve a person's life significantly if you find out that they are struggling with independence once they are an adult. Just being able to include them on your cell phone plan, or to cover their monthly bus pass, could make a big difference.
posted by Jane the Brown at 6:27 AM on February 9
Best answer: Agreeing with Jane the Brown’s assessment as I’ve also been on (am currently on) the receiving end of someone very similar to your in-law. As just an example, this person out of nowhere bought an unneeded second car (of course, a more expensive fancier new one) literally the day after I bought a used one. Truly a bizarre experience to witness and one I’m pretty sure they made a really poor financial deal on based on some of what they told me of the transaction. Constant one-upsmanship, throwaway snide remarks, hijacking the sharing of milestones to discuss their own situations, etc. It’s like a need to keep me close, but also keep me in a slightly down position. It’s pretty gross!
I’m working on Jane’s advice to just take it for what it is - someone who’s rubbing me the wrong way and that is enough in itself to put some distance between us without sliding into outright contempt for the person. When I do take a step back from my own stuff that is triggered by their poor behaviors it’s easy to see that they really are (or at least feel) inadequate, unconnected and unloved in their life. It’s sad for them and also frustrating for me because I actually quite like this person outside of their weird behavior, but I also don’t trust them enough to not act poorly if I were to share some of thoughts about it with them …. So they will continue to manufacture their own loneliness which keeps them grasping for love and acceptance in a way that keeps them isolated.
posted by flamk at 8:55 AM on February 9 [3 favorites]
I’m working on Jane’s advice to just take it for what it is - someone who’s rubbing me the wrong way and that is enough in itself to put some distance between us without sliding into outright contempt for the person. When I do take a step back from my own stuff that is triggered by their poor behaviors it’s easy to see that they really are (or at least feel) inadequate, unconnected and unloved in their life. It’s sad for them and also frustrating for me because I actually quite like this person outside of their weird behavior, but I also don’t trust them enough to not act poorly if I were to share some of thoughts about it with them …. So they will continue to manufacture their own loneliness which keeps them grasping for love and acceptance in a way that keeps them isolated.
posted by flamk at 8:55 AM on February 9 [3 favorites]
Given your added context, I'd say it's best just to accept she's an unpleasant person, without worrying as to the why of it. I'd focus on brainstorming ways of response that will be productive in making you feel better - for me personally, I'm like aramaic - I find it cathartic to push back on people like this. But you may be different - maybe your happiest response is to 'grey rock' or something else - whatever works!
As for money: I'm getting the sense that Beth's husband is your husband's brother, is that correct? While there are obviously exceptions, people generally tend to listen more to the blood-relatives. So, I might encourage your husband to at some point remark to his brother that their spending appears unsustainable, and ask if they've seen a financial planner. Unless you've actually seen their books, so to speak, you don't really know how irresponsible they are being.
posted by coffeecat at 9:40 AM on February 9
As for money: I'm getting the sense that Beth's husband is your husband's brother, is that correct? While there are obviously exceptions, people generally tend to listen more to the blood-relatives. So, I might encourage your husband to at some point remark to his brother that their spending appears unsustainable, and ask if they've seen a financial planner. Unless you've actually seen their books, so to speak, you don't really know how irresponsible they are being.
posted by coffeecat at 9:40 AM on February 9
Response by poster: I appreciate flamk sharing their own experience (which resonates with me), and the phrase: "manufacture their own loneliness".
I have trouble predicting what will cause Beth to lash out. For Christmas, I bought her kids a few of the more expensive items from their wishlist. This seemed to bother Beth (perhaps she thought I was showing off by spending money?) and she gave me the cold shoulder. But I'm pretty sure that if I bought the cheaper items, she would have been even more irritated.
She's presumably feeling bad (e.g. "inadequate and unconnected") at the moments she's lashing out. My reason for wanting to put more distance is also partly because I don't want to keep inadvertently causing her to feel these negative feelings. At the times she's lashing out, both of us feel bad.
I originally wanted to do various nice things for Beth's kids, but it's too challenging given Beth's unpredictable negative reactions. So she is indeed manufacturing her own loneliness, as flamk wrote.
I do want to maintain empathy for Beth. It's easy to be reactive and oversimplify her. This thread helps me avoid that, which was my intent for asking this question. Thanks!
posted by cheesecake at 10:02 AM on February 9 [3 favorites]
I have trouble predicting what will cause Beth to lash out. For Christmas, I bought her kids a few of the more expensive items from their wishlist. This seemed to bother Beth (perhaps she thought I was showing off by spending money?) and she gave me the cold shoulder. But I'm pretty sure that if I bought the cheaper items, she would have been even more irritated.
She's presumably feeling bad (e.g. "inadequate and unconnected") at the moments she's lashing out. My reason for wanting to put more distance is also partly because I don't want to keep inadvertently causing her to feel these negative feelings. At the times she's lashing out, both of us feel bad.
I originally wanted to do various nice things for Beth's kids, but it's too challenging given Beth's unpredictable negative reactions. So she is indeed manufacturing her own loneliness, as flamk wrote.
I do want to maintain empathy for Beth. It's easy to be reactive and oversimplify her. This thread helps me avoid that, which was my intent for asking this question. Thanks!
posted by cheesecake at 10:02 AM on February 9 [3 favorites]
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The FIRE thing seems more challenging, because it does sound as though she used your example to persuade herself this was OK (while apparently doing minimal research and completely misunderstanding the system). You're certainly not responsible to help her financially, but you may be in a position to use her extreme suggestibility to set her up for healthier choices.
FIRE communities must have risk-management materials and discussions about contingencies/ unexpected emergencies, correct? If in her mind you're FIRE buddies together, then could you start sending her periodic materials about these things ("Hey, saw this great article about planning for market contractions - I know that's something Bob and I worry about in this economy, so I wanted to share")? You come off like a fairly deliberate person who believes that there's a right and a wrong way to do things and good people do it the right way the first time; but more impulsive folks quite often adapt and shift strategies on the fly. There must be adjustments she could make that would reduce the disaster potential of her current circumstances.
posted by Bardolph at 6:33 AM on February 8 [20 favorites]