Uhhh...so how does this kind of relationship work?
October 18, 2024 10:58 PM Subscribe
My friend told me some things about her dating life that I'm struggling to get my head around. Looking for perspectives.
So she's getting a divorce from a very aggressive guy and I said something about controlling assholes. She told me that she likes a guy to be controlling in certain ways though (not in all the ways her ex was).
The examples she gave were:
A general "make me" attitude from her end with regards to sex
Dancing with a random guy at a club to make her boyfriend jealous and wanting him to get in the other guy's face
I've been mulling it over for about a month now and I'm still having a really hard time not feeling judgmental and worried. The sex stuff is just the complete opposite of how I would want to do things, I really value enthusiastic consent on both ends. The dancing stuff also seems to me to brush up against consent issues. Like, who's this random guy she's involving in her relationship and is he cool with that? And who has time for these games when it comes to an actual relationship/how does this translate to real life day to day?
But some people probably enjoy stuff like this and still manage to have a good relationship, right? But how? How do you filter for something like this while also keeping out abusive jerks? I guess that's really the crux of my question. She's dating with this type of stuff being involved and I don't want her to end up with someone who doesn't respect when she says no.
So she's getting a divorce from a very aggressive guy and I said something about controlling assholes. She told me that she likes a guy to be controlling in certain ways though (not in all the ways her ex was).
The examples she gave were:
A general "make me" attitude from her end with regards to sex
Dancing with a random guy at a club to make her boyfriend jealous and wanting him to get in the other guy's face
I've been mulling it over for about a month now and I'm still having a really hard time not feeling judgmental and worried. The sex stuff is just the complete opposite of how I would want to do things, I really value enthusiastic consent on both ends. The dancing stuff also seems to me to brush up against consent issues. Like, who's this random guy she's involving in her relationship and is he cool with that? And who has time for these games when it comes to an actual relationship/how does this translate to real life day to day?
But some people probably enjoy stuff like this and still manage to have a good relationship, right? But how? How do you filter for something like this while also keeping out abusive jerks? I guess that's really the crux of my question. She's dating with this type of stuff being involved and I don't want her to end up with someone who doesn't respect when she says no.
You know this is an absolutely bananas way for someone to go about things. I think at the moment culturally we’re expected to find a way for anything and everything someone does to be ‘valid’. And obviously every adult can do whatever they want, however destructive it is. But as a friend you don’t have to force yourself to find it valid and ok. If that were my friend I’d be thinking 1) you’re gonna get yourself hurt 2) you’re repeating cycles and obviously aware of that so why are you doing it? 3) this must come from past traumas, ones which probably go way way back to her childhood and won’t be easy to unravel 4) girl have you never encountered feminist thought?
Not everything that happens is good. Lots of people make really bad choices for themselves for reasons other people can’t understand. Lots of people are drawn to dangerous and destructive situations. Any dude who is like what she’s looking for is probably not gonna be a nice person.
But you know, large swathes of our culture still has a narrative that a woman is an object to be fought over like two rutting stags, and that proves how valuable she is. You can see this in pop and hiphop music, in reality shows. If your man is jealous and trying to get you to sleep with him by any means necessary, for some women that is going to validate their self-image as sexy and desirable. They’re totally cut off from the idea of their own desire and even their physical safety being important, it’s all about the man’s actions, towards her and also towards other men in regards to her. It’s completely an alien mindset to me but it’s the way a lot of people still think and behave. Especially if someone has childhood trauma as a girl, priming her to only recognise herself in certain roles and so seek out unhealthy dynamics.
You sound rather meek so maybe this would be difficult for you, but I’d be going in hard when she says stuff like that with the “what?????” “That sounds horrible” “You deserve to be treated like a queen” “You know you don’t ever have to have sex right?” “You know it’s ok to be single right?” “Why don’t you try being single while you recover from your violent marriage for a bit?” “Why don’t you try quitting porn?” “You know that nice guys who treat you well can also be sexy?” “You know that you are worth sooo much and you don’t need a man acting like a caveman about you to be worthy?”
posted by Balthamos at 11:54 PM on October 18 [9 favorites]
Not everything that happens is good. Lots of people make really bad choices for themselves for reasons other people can’t understand. Lots of people are drawn to dangerous and destructive situations. Any dude who is like what she’s looking for is probably not gonna be a nice person.
But you know, large swathes of our culture still has a narrative that a woman is an object to be fought over like two rutting stags, and that proves how valuable she is. You can see this in pop and hiphop music, in reality shows. If your man is jealous and trying to get you to sleep with him by any means necessary, for some women that is going to validate their self-image as sexy and desirable. They’re totally cut off from the idea of their own desire and even their physical safety being important, it’s all about the man’s actions, towards her and also towards other men in regards to her. It’s completely an alien mindset to me but it’s the way a lot of people still think and behave. Especially if someone has childhood trauma as a girl, priming her to only recognise herself in certain roles and so seek out unhealthy dynamics.
You sound rather meek so maybe this would be difficult for you, but I’d be going in hard when she says stuff like that with the “what?????” “That sounds horrible” “You deserve to be treated like a queen” “You know you don’t ever have to have sex right?” “You know it’s ok to be single right?” “Why don’t you try being single while you recover from your violent marriage for a bit?” “Why don’t you try quitting porn?” “You know that nice guys who treat you well can also be sexy?” “You know that you are worth sooo much and you don’t need a man acting like a caveman about you to be worthy?”
posted by Balthamos at 11:54 PM on October 18 [9 favorites]
There are several things going on here IMO.
It sounds like she's into a form of cuckoldry kink (dancing with another guy to make her man jealous) or possibly consensual non-consent (being forced or coerced into sex). This may come from some harmful ideas she's picked up from porn or other places about how sexually aggressive men are allowed to be/that women are supposed to make a man work for what he wants. Or it may not. Perhaps she simply gets off on the idea of winding a guy up, or she's into the exhibitionism aspect or the muddying of consent. Or she likes the idea of being used as an object and fought over. This stuff doesn't tend to be simple.
But some people probably enjoy stuff like this and still manage to have a good relationship, right? But how?
Clear communication. Boundaries. Checking in constantly. Awareness of kink and how to practice consensual non-consent or cuckoldry ethically, safely, and compassionately. It's work and not easy.
How do you filter for something like this while also keeping out abusive jerks?
You can't. Someone could practice this stuff perfectly and still be an abusive jerk about other things. Sadly these kinds of circles do attract men who just want to treat women like shit and get away with it. Your friend needs to be very careful, but that goes for dating in general.
She's dating with this type of stuff being involved and I don't want her to end up with someone who doesn't respect when she says no.
This is a good thing to want and you're a good friend for looking out for her, but she's an adult and you don't get to control who she dates. She might make some mistakes, but those are her mistakes. Keep an eye out and make sure you're a safe place for her to talk about her issues or spend time with if she needs to, but you don't get to tell her how she gets to have sex or date. Saying that kind of thing is more likely to push her away and keep things from you than make her want to share.
posted by fight or flight at 3:18 AM on October 19 [17 favorites]
It sounds like she's into a form of cuckoldry kink (dancing with another guy to make her man jealous) or possibly consensual non-consent (being forced or coerced into sex). This may come from some harmful ideas she's picked up from porn or other places about how sexually aggressive men are allowed to be/that women are supposed to make a man work for what he wants. Or it may not. Perhaps she simply gets off on the idea of winding a guy up, or she's into the exhibitionism aspect or the muddying of consent. Or she likes the idea of being used as an object and fought over. This stuff doesn't tend to be simple.
But some people probably enjoy stuff like this and still manage to have a good relationship, right? But how?
Clear communication. Boundaries. Checking in constantly. Awareness of kink and how to practice consensual non-consent or cuckoldry ethically, safely, and compassionately. It's work and not easy.
How do you filter for something like this while also keeping out abusive jerks?
You can't. Someone could practice this stuff perfectly and still be an abusive jerk about other things. Sadly these kinds of circles do attract men who just want to treat women like shit and get away with it. Your friend needs to be very careful, but that goes for dating in general.
She's dating with this type of stuff being involved and I don't want her to end up with someone who doesn't respect when she says no.
This is a good thing to want and you're a good friend for looking out for her, but she's an adult and you don't get to control who she dates. She might make some mistakes, but those are her mistakes. Keep an eye out and make sure you're a safe place for her to talk about her issues or spend time with if she needs to, but you don't get to tell her how she gets to have sex or date. Saying that kind of thing is more likely to push her away and keep things from you than make her want to share.
posted by fight or flight at 3:18 AM on October 19 [17 favorites]
Lots of people dealing with ongoing trauma or dealing with PTSD do risky or self-destructive things. Recreating traumatizing situations or justifying them as normal is also very common in survivors of sexual abuse and intimate partner violence. That would be my guess about what’s going on here. Even if this guy wasn’t technically abusive—although he sounds controlling at a minimum—it’s very possible that she was exposed to intimate partner violence or abuse as a child.
I would stay supportive and caring. You don’t need to agree with her, but you don’t need to be critical or blaming either. Just care for her and encourage her to talk to a professional, not because she’s broken, but because she deserves support.
posted by knobknosher at 3:20 AM on October 19 [6 favorites]
I would stay supportive and caring. You don’t need to agree with her, but you don’t need to be critical or blaming either. Just care for her and encourage her to talk to a professional, not because she’s broken, but because she deserves support.
posted by knobknosher at 3:20 AM on October 19 [6 favorites]
A couple of things:
1. A number of commenters are rushing to analyze this person based on 2nd hand incomplete information provided anonymously on the internet. This is flimsy and not really useful to the poster.
2. People can pick up all sorts of ideas from stories (porn or not). It’s one of the ways we build our identities. Sometimes, this isn’t the best thing, sometimes it’s ok.
3. The bedroom stuff is potentially fine. There are a lot of bottoms out there along with a lot of people who like to play at resistance or being forced. This obviously has dangers, requires good boundaries from all partners, and great communication. Is your friend involved in a BDSM group where she can learn these tricky skills? Does she read instructional material about it?
4. The second scenario is problematic because it suggests she’s involving a third person (and likely her partner) non-consensually in her sex life. I guess the couple could enlist a guy to play along, but that might not have the thrill. Basically, she shouldn’t treat people as props in her sex life without their say-so.
5. In general, people who want to live their kink 24/7 aren’t very successful at it, because they and their partner(s)’ interests change over time. It usually also requires being very well off. If you feel like it, you might all to your friend about boundaries between her fantasies and reality.
6. Your friend might or might not benefit from therapy, and she and a partner might benefit from working with a sex councilor. These may be more or less available depending on where you are. If you wanted, maybe you could engage your friend on what she wants in a partner on a practical day-to-day sense, which might well not be someone to control her every action, as shown by her divorce.
7. Another option is to cut ties and run; she sounds a bit like a disaster bottom from your description, and they are fun til they absolutely are not.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:27 AM on October 19 [10 favorites]
1. A number of commenters are rushing to analyze this person based on 2nd hand incomplete information provided anonymously on the internet. This is flimsy and not really useful to the poster.
2. People can pick up all sorts of ideas from stories (porn or not). It’s one of the ways we build our identities. Sometimes, this isn’t the best thing, sometimes it’s ok.
3. The bedroom stuff is potentially fine. There are a lot of bottoms out there along with a lot of people who like to play at resistance or being forced. This obviously has dangers, requires good boundaries from all partners, and great communication. Is your friend involved in a BDSM group where she can learn these tricky skills? Does she read instructional material about it?
4. The second scenario is problematic because it suggests she’s involving a third person (and likely her partner) non-consensually in her sex life. I guess the couple could enlist a guy to play along, but that might not have the thrill. Basically, she shouldn’t treat people as props in her sex life without their say-so.
5. In general, people who want to live their kink 24/7 aren’t very successful at it, because they and their partner(s)’ interests change over time. It usually also requires being very well off. If you feel like it, you might all to your friend about boundaries between her fantasies and reality.
6. Your friend might or might not benefit from therapy, and she and a partner might benefit from working with a sex councilor. These may be more or less available depending on where you are. If you wanted, maybe you could engage your friend on what she wants in a partner on a practical day-to-day sense, which might well not be someone to control her every action, as shown by her divorce.
7. Another option is to cut ties and run; she sounds a bit like a disaster bottom from your description, and they are fun til they absolutely are not.
posted by GenjiandProust at 4:27 AM on October 19 [10 favorites]
you don’t need to be critical or blaming either
In your own head you could quite reasonably go as far as "for fuck's sake, how can she possibly not care about the 9999 ways that holding onto these attitudes is super obviously super likely to end up going super horribly wrong" and leave it at that.
She's an adult, she gets to make her own shitty choices. Whether or not you choose to stick around and help clean up the inevitable messes is entirely your call, and there's no shame in deciding not to if it starts looking way too hard.
Helping is good and all, but nobody who habitually chooses to walk out into the blizzard without a stitch of clothing can reasonably expect you to set yourself on fire every time they get cold.
posted by flabdablet at 4:35 AM on October 19 [8 favorites]
In your own head you could quite reasonably go as far as "for fuck's sake, how can she possibly not care about the 9999 ways that holding onto these attitudes is super obviously super likely to end up going super horribly wrong" and leave it at that.
She's an adult, she gets to make her own shitty choices. Whether or not you choose to stick around and help clean up the inevitable messes is entirely your call, and there's no shame in deciding not to if it starts looking way too hard.
Helping is good and all, but nobody who habitually chooses to walk out into the blizzard without a stitch of clothing can reasonably expect you to set yourself on fire every time they get cold.
posted by flabdablet at 4:35 AM on October 19 [8 favorites]
I don't want her to end up with someone who doesn't respect when she says no.
It's not all about you. Who she ends up with is her call, not yours.
All you can really ever do for somebody like this is give them solid advice when they ask for it and not a second before.
posted by flabdablet at 4:38 AM on October 19 [12 favorites]
It's not all about you. Who she ends up with is her call, not yours.
All you can really ever do for somebody like this is give them solid advice when they ask for it and not a second before.
posted by flabdablet at 4:38 AM on October 19 [12 favorites]
I agree that it is pretty ethically crappy to involve an unsuspecting third person in that dynamic in a way that involves her partner getting threatening with them. That part would bother me and I might well ask about that piece if it and try to understand how she sees that and if she has thought about that aspect of it.
But beyond that…eh. There are plenty of ways to navigate playing around with consent in a healthy way, in and out of the bedroom. It can be complicated, for sure, and can add some extra layers to figuring out if someone is a good partner for you, but it’s very doable. There’s a lot of information in the world about consensual non consent, a million online and offline kink groups, reading material, workshops - lots of people play with this stuff on a regular basis in healthy, loving relationships. If your friend wants that, she can have it. If she is not doing this in a healthy and safe way it’s reasonable to worry for her, but then the problem is not what she wants, but the way she’s going about it. If and only if she asks for your help with that, you could help round up some resources for her.
posted by Stacey at 5:49 AM on October 19 [6 favorites]
But beyond that…eh. There are plenty of ways to navigate playing around with consent in a healthy way, in and out of the bedroom. It can be complicated, for sure, and can add some extra layers to figuring out if someone is a good partner for you, but it’s very doable. There’s a lot of information in the world about consensual non consent, a million online and offline kink groups, reading material, workshops - lots of people play with this stuff on a regular basis in healthy, loving relationships. If your friend wants that, she can have it. If she is not doing this in a healthy and safe way it’s reasonable to worry for her, but then the problem is not what she wants, but the way she’s going about it. If and only if she asks for your help with that, you could help round up some resources for her.
posted by Stacey at 5:49 AM on October 19 [6 favorites]
Support her if she seeks it, make clear you are there for her, and otherwise how this "works" is none of your business.
posted by Ardnamurchan at 5:59 AM on October 19 [4 favorites]
posted by Ardnamurchan at 5:59 AM on October 19 [4 favorites]
What they do in their own bedroom is pretty much their business. If they're involving other people, unaware, in their kink play, that's inappropriate and it's fair to speak up about it unprompted. People look out for each other; not just those we know, but those we don't.
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:00 AM on October 19 [3 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 6:00 AM on October 19 [3 favorites]
My take:
Making all your own decisions and being responsible for them is colloquially referred to as “adulting”. We could all use a break from that sometimes, and having someone around to pick up the load can be a great relief from everyday pressures.
Unfortunately, as your friend has found out, finding someone who is able to turn controlling behavior on and off in the way she would like is extremely difficult. I think you’d have to find someone who is very good at role-playing being controlling – people who are controlling by nature are unlikely to change their ways on her behalf.
The nightclub thing is similar. She’s looking for a show of aggressive ownership, probably as it gives her a sense of safety and once again lifts a level of responsibility from her.
All of this is supposition of course, but it’s not an uncommon pattern of behavior. It “works“ in the sense that she gets what she wants and her counterpart gets someone to be controlling and protective of. I’ve seen it work out for a while (particularly with younger people) but usually the controlee seems to grow out of it, at which point they try to escape and things can get nasty.
I could be way off. But the pattern does look familiar.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:42 AM on October 19 [3 favorites]
Making all your own decisions and being responsible for them is colloquially referred to as “adulting”. We could all use a break from that sometimes, and having someone around to pick up the load can be a great relief from everyday pressures.
Unfortunately, as your friend has found out, finding someone who is able to turn controlling behavior on and off in the way she would like is extremely difficult. I think you’d have to find someone who is very good at role-playing being controlling – people who are controlling by nature are unlikely to change their ways on her behalf.
The nightclub thing is similar. She’s looking for a show of aggressive ownership, probably as it gives her a sense of safety and once again lifts a level of responsibility from her.
All of this is supposition of course, but it’s not an uncommon pattern of behavior. It “works“ in the sense that she gets what she wants and her counterpart gets someone to be controlling and protective of. I’ve seen it work out for a while (particularly with younger people) but usually the controlee seems to grow out of it, at which point they try to escape and things can get nasty.
I could be way off. But the pattern does look familiar.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:42 AM on October 19 [3 favorites]
Consenting adults in their own bedroom yadda yadda, all fine, but the club scenario with her recruiting other people to be NPCs in her little scenes is seriously grossing me out. I'd make her watch the Key and Peele Meegan and Andre sketches. Nnnnnnothing can stop meee! Do you seriously want to be Meegan all over the place out in public in front of other human persons? Rilly?
posted by Don Pepino at 6:52 AM on October 19 [3 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 6:52 AM on October 19 [3 favorites]
If it's been a month and hasn't come up since, I think the ship has sailed on that conversation.
I think the first question is what kind of a friend is this? If this isn't a friend you've had a long time and someone who isn't that close to you, then this might be the point where you realize you're different and decide if you want to continue to get close or if you want to gradually be more 'hang out when it's convenient' friends.
If this is a good friend that's going to be in your life a long time, it will come up again and maybe it's just deciding what you'll say at that point that will set your mind at ease. I would suggest:
1. If she discusses involving a third person again, I think it is definitely worth saying "hey, it's not cool to involve other people without their consent." Especially a situation where they might have a fight! Men are people too.
2. If she discusses dating controlling people, I'd say something like (and I have said similar) "I know you've said you find control sexy but man, I find it hard to hear about this stuff. It upsets me to hear about relationships that work that way."
If you really can't wait, you could have a conversation like #2. But it will be heavier if you bring it up out of the blue (to her) and it isn't related to anything she just said.
It's really, really not your job to change her or manage her relationships. (Although I would speak up about the non-consensual stuff in the moment.) It is however your job to manage your relationships, including with her. If this is something you can't get past, I recommend considering if you want to be friends with her.
I know that we all want to help identify abusive patterns and be there for our friends when they need us, but in this case she's flat-out told you what she likes, and she's managed a divorce when something wasn't working for her. This may very well be just who she is or who she is right now. Do you want to be friends with the person she is right now?
The last thing I'll say is a month is a long time. Is there anything in your life you're dealing with that touches on this? Maybe that's what needs your attention.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:57 AM on October 19 [6 favorites]
I think the first question is what kind of a friend is this? If this isn't a friend you've had a long time and someone who isn't that close to you, then this might be the point where you realize you're different and decide if you want to continue to get close or if you want to gradually be more 'hang out when it's convenient' friends.
If this is a good friend that's going to be in your life a long time, it will come up again and maybe it's just deciding what you'll say at that point that will set your mind at ease. I would suggest:
1. If she discusses involving a third person again, I think it is definitely worth saying "hey, it's not cool to involve other people without their consent." Especially a situation where they might have a fight! Men are people too.
2. If she discusses dating controlling people, I'd say something like (and I have said similar) "I know you've said you find control sexy but man, I find it hard to hear about this stuff. It upsets me to hear about relationships that work that way."
If you really can't wait, you could have a conversation like #2. But it will be heavier if you bring it up out of the blue (to her) and it isn't related to anything she just said.
It's really, really not your job to change her or manage her relationships. (Although I would speak up about the non-consensual stuff in the moment.) It is however your job to manage your relationships, including with her. If this is something you can't get past, I recommend considering if you want to be friends with her.
I know that we all want to help identify abusive patterns and be there for our friends when they need us, but in this case she's flat-out told you what she likes, and she's managed a divorce when something wasn't working for her. This may very well be just who she is or who she is right now. Do you want to be friends with the person she is right now?
The last thing I'll say is a month is a long time. Is there anything in your life you're dealing with that touches on this? Maybe that's what needs your attention.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:57 AM on October 19 [6 favorites]
If it come up again, I think it'd be reasonable to mention that you hope she'll be careful, as guys who are controlling in the ways she wants have a good chance of being controlling in ways she doesn't want.
posted by lookoutbelow at 7:15 AM on October 19 [1 favorite]
posted by lookoutbelow at 7:15 AM on October 19 [1 favorite]
Some people consciously cultivate a different dynamic in the bedroom than they do in the rest of their relationships. As long as everyone involved enjoys it, there's nothing wrong with playing around in ways you wouldn't want to be treated by your partner in real life.
However, doing that without getting (unnecessarily) hurt usually does require some self-awareness and a good read on your partner's own desires and underlying character. Someone who is old enough to have been married and divorced and is still trying out #2 in real life (as opposed to a fantasy, and you should ask yourself whether she was describing something she wished would happen, rather than something she actually does or did...two different things!) is a careless, thoughtless mess who is out there subjecting strangers to serious nonconsensual risk (people actually do die in fights at the club from time to time! and bluntly it's a freaking buzzkill to have fights breaking out in your vicinity and having to worry about your own safety when you're just trying to have a good time), so probably she isn't doing #1 carefully, either.
While #1 isn't really yours to police, even if she's harming herself, she's just going to go on being a public mess indefinitely. I find that kind of thing utterly exhausting in real life. Your tolerance may be different or you may find other aspects of your friendship outweigh the problem, and that's your judgment to make. If you don't want to encourage this behavior, though, don't talk about it with her over and over again. She wants a reaction. If she's close enough that you feel comfortable telling her you worry about her safety, do it once. If you otherwise treat it as too boring/jejune even to respond to, you will no longer be feeding the thrill.
posted by praemunire at 7:46 AM on October 19 [3 favorites]
However, doing that without getting (unnecessarily) hurt usually does require some self-awareness and a good read on your partner's own desires and underlying character. Someone who is old enough to have been married and divorced and is still trying out #2 in real life (as opposed to a fantasy, and you should ask yourself whether she was describing something she wished would happen, rather than something she actually does or did...two different things!) is a careless, thoughtless mess who is out there subjecting strangers to serious nonconsensual risk (people actually do die in fights at the club from time to time! and bluntly it's a freaking buzzkill to have fights breaking out in your vicinity and having to worry about your own safety when you're just trying to have a good time), so probably she isn't doing #1 carefully, either.
While #1 isn't really yours to police, even if she's harming herself, she's just going to go on being a public mess indefinitely. I find that kind of thing utterly exhausting in real life. Your tolerance may be different or you may find other aspects of your friendship outweigh the problem, and that's your judgment to make. If you don't want to encourage this behavior, though, don't talk about it with her over and over again. She wants a reaction. If she's close enough that you feel comfortable telling her you worry about her safety, do it once. If you otherwise treat it as too boring/jejune even to respond to, you will no longer be feeding the thrill.
posted by praemunire at 7:46 AM on October 19 [3 favorites]
Yeah, a consenting bedroom situation with two (I'll say it again) genuinely consenting adults is fine.
But tricking other people into a situation where your partner is threatening physical violence against them just because it gives you a thrill is simply horrible. Someone could get physically hurt, or at least seriously traumatized. That goes beyond the pale, IMO and if it's her idea and want then she's going way too far, even if it's "just" strangers in a bar or nightclub. Those are human beings, too.
posted by SoberHighland at 8:07 AM on October 19 [3 favorites]
But tricking other people into a situation where your partner is threatening physical violence against them just because it gives you a thrill is simply horrible. Someone could get physically hurt, or at least seriously traumatized. That goes beyond the pale, IMO and if it's her idea and want then she's going way too far, even if it's "just" strangers in a bar or nightclub. Those are human beings, too.
posted by SoberHighland at 8:07 AM on October 19 [3 favorites]
So you have just been confronted with the details of someone else's kink, and it was TMI and you got squicked. So as much as anything else this is you dealing with being badly turned off by someone else's kink and horrified by their lifestyle.
Usually when we hear about a kink that is not our kink we are often baffled. Shoes? Why would anyone be turned on by blunt toed suede slip-on shoes??? But if we are not merely bored by the kink, we are apt to feel that it's not safe, it's not wholesome, and it says something bad about the other person's character that they like it.
Some years ago, that was pretty much the universal reaction to the gay men. But, but... it's not safe, and it's not hygienic, and you will ruin your life if they give into that... You could find the thought repeating, How could they? How could they? But the years have gone by and when someone straight learns that a guy is gay they no longer instantly start wondering if this will lead to fecal incontinence, promiscuity and disease, legal trouble, and a whole host of other projections that were the standard baggage a majority of straight people carried back in say, the 1940's. Because her kink is not your kink, you immediately resisted and started thinking about all the reasons why her kink is an absolutely bad idea.
I'm going to put it to you that your friend will probably sort her own life out, and have some miserable experiences in the process, just as millions of other people whose kink would appall you will do and have already done, as well as millions of people whose kink doesn't appall you, but who also have to navigate all the pitfalls of having partners. Before you knew about her domination kink, I suspect you weren't worrying about her getting involved with a gentle passive boyfriend, and ending up with a guy who says sweet things to her and gives great back rubs, but who doesn't manage to pay his half of the rent. And you weren't worried about her being picky about partners right up until she is thirty-six when her biological clock kicks in, and she might marry the only available guy at that point, have a kid with him and discover she is now a single mother for all intents and purposes, unable to work because she has a high needs child. People without her kink are in danger of running into serious horrible partner problems too, and yet she's the one you are still worrying about a month later.
There are major pitfalls looming ahead of everyone who is out there partnering off, for people without her kink as well as the ones with her kink. It's only her kink that has you worrying. Now I am NOT saying she isn't likely to run into some trouble with her kink. She's pretty much bound to. The reason why her particular situation is disturbing you is perhaps that it runs absolutely counter to everything you believe and want in terms of a desirable sex life.
You're probably part of that increasingly growing demographic of women who aren't pairing off unless they can find a guy who always treats them like an autonomous equal, to whom consent is sacrosanct, and who would never dream of being coercively possessive. That's the demographic that is growing while the birth rate is plummeting, and it's growing for economic reasons, because avoiding guys of the sort she is attracted to is a critical way to avoid an unwanted pregnancy in the Post Roe vs. Wade era.
Victorian women reduced their fertility rate by getting into virginal prudery and considering it time to withdraw from male company if something made them blush; the current generation is reducing their fertility by considering childless cat lady as an excellent career goal. Very sensible of both cohorts - they can't afford the babies, and are embracing the social changes that will protect them from it. Social changes, of course, aren't just mild evolution in fashion, they are crusades. They are the things that matter the most to you. Your revulsion for her kink is probably related to your revulsion for Trump. Who on earth would be attracted to a bully!!?
But here's the thing - cross culturally, and historically a LOT of women are drawn to dominant, possessive men. There are evolutionary reasons for this. In many cultures and times, women who pair off with dominant possessive men do better economically and have more surviving children than women who try to make a go of it without a partner, or women who seek out partners who are prosocial. For centuries thousands of years, a woman looking for a partner had to think about it before committing to a nice gentle guy, because there were strong odds some bully would come along and plant a fist in the nose of the nice gentle guy, and this would have a strong impact on the family income and the number of surviving offspring. Not saying that women who marry bullies didn't often end up getting a fist in their own nose, and dying of childbirth, but that they still ended up producing slightly more surviving kids than the woman who opted to not get married, or who married a guy who ended up not able to support a family. Being turned on by bullies is not an evolutionary dead end.
I think that the reason some women are drawn to guys like this is biological, and that if we have some people who are gay and some who are straight, and some women who like dominant guys and some women who don't, we will end up with more kids surviving to adulthood. That is just my belief. I can't prove an antiquated socio-biological theory. But I can tell you for sure that male dominance fantasies are not rare in women. One study found that almost 65% of them had those fantasies. It's not uncommon - it's legion.
If you read romance novels you'd find that the vast majority of them are about dominant guys and women submitting to them, and one of the most common subplots is that the female lead has two love interests, one of which is soundly vanquished, often floored by a single punch, by the one she lives happily ever after with at the end of the novel. If male dominance is not your kink, you will find the entire romance novel genre truly heavy going. Yet romance novels are the highest earning genre of fiction. There's the supernatural sub-genre where the shirtless guy on the cover is a werewolf/vampire/elf/ghoul/immortal. There's the cowboy sub-genre. There's the coercive millionaire sub-genre. I could keep going, but you get the idea. There is a strong chance that your friend with her kink is a member of the majority.
Now your friend is perhaps getting fantasy muddled with reality. But maybe not. Trying to get her partner jealous is an extremely stupid thing to do, unless she knows for certain that it turns him on, and will only lead to a bewildered guy alone on the dance floor wondering where she went, while her partner and her go home early to have the kind of anger fueled sex they both enjoy. I think it is likely that your friend probably enjoyed sharing her jealous controlling partner fantasy with you, but that she has definitely also picked up on the fact that what works in fantasy is likely to end up in divorce. There is a good chance she's going to go into the next relationship with a bit more prudence, and indeed that discussion about her kink, that she had with you, was part of her figuring out what will and what won't work in real life if she starts looking for a new partner. She's showing insight, not just blindly moving toward what turns her on. "Dammit, I find jealous coercive guys hot, but they make crap partners!"
Like a Victorian woman discovering that one of her girlfriends is sexually active with multiple partners, your reaction is to be lastingly disturbed. It flies in the face of your morals, not just your common sense. It seems totally illogical of her. But that's the thing about our sexual desires. They aren't logical. They exist to make us take terrible risks, so that we find partners, and so that we have children. (Sometimes our fantasies even exist to prevent us from taking risks, as when a kid in high school crushes hard on some celebrity they will never meet, instead of crushing on anyone who attends their school.) Sex is, after all, always dangerous. Anyone who dates puts themself in danger of rape. Anyone who has sex puts themself in danger of picking up certain infections. (It's hard to swap spit without picking up the flu.) Anyone who has het sex with a corresponding fertile partner puts themself in danger of taking on a lifetime of responsibility for a child. Having sex is always risky.
If your friend is not an extremely close friend or sibling it's probably reasonable for you to just let it go and not try to alert her to the danger her kink could be leading her into. If you don't know her well enough to already know how clearly she perceives the danger of dating bullies, you probably don't know her well enough to be sure your reaction is actually genuinely protective, as opposed to deriving from you being squicked. If you are not regularly worried about her for other reasons, like her dangerous commute or her student loans, then you probably don't know her well enough to trust your feeling that she should be saved from herself. You run a danger of being morality police, as opposed to being a helpful friend.
Being worried about her isn't wrong. But since her kink is not your kink, you're probably not in a position to truly judge if she is in danger and how much danger she is in.
posted by Jane the Brown at 8:33 AM on October 19 [7 favorites]
Usually when we hear about a kink that is not our kink we are often baffled. Shoes? Why would anyone be turned on by blunt toed suede slip-on shoes??? But if we are not merely bored by the kink, we are apt to feel that it's not safe, it's not wholesome, and it says something bad about the other person's character that they like it.
Some years ago, that was pretty much the universal reaction to the gay men. But, but... it's not safe, and it's not hygienic, and you will ruin your life if they give into that... You could find the thought repeating, How could they? How could they? But the years have gone by and when someone straight learns that a guy is gay they no longer instantly start wondering if this will lead to fecal incontinence, promiscuity and disease, legal trouble, and a whole host of other projections that were the standard baggage a majority of straight people carried back in say, the 1940's. Because her kink is not your kink, you immediately resisted and started thinking about all the reasons why her kink is an absolutely bad idea.
I'm going to put it to you that your friend will probably sort her own life out, and have some miserable experiences in the process, just as millions of other people whose kink would appall you will do and have already done, as well as millions of people whose kink doesn't appall you, but who also have to navigate all the pitfalls of having partners. Before you knew about her domination kink, I suspect you weren't worrying about her getting involved with a gentle passive boyfriend, and ending up with a guy who says sweet things to her and gives great back rubs, but who doesn't manage to pay his half of the rent. And you weren't worried about her being picky about partners right up until she is thirty-six when her biological clock kicks in, and she might marry the only available guy at that point, have a kid with him and discover she is now a single mother for all intents and purposes, unable to work because she has a high needs child. People without her kink are in danger of running into serious horrible partner problems too, and yet she's the one you are still worrying about a month later.
There are major pitfalls looming ahead of everyone who is out there partnering off, for people without her kink as well as the ones with her kink. It's only her kink that has you worrying. Now I am NOT saying she isn't likely to run into some trouble with her kink. She's pretty much bound to. The reason why her particular situation is disturbing you is perhaps that it runs absolutely counter to everything you believe and want in terms of a desirable sex life.
You're probably part of that increasingly growing demographic of women who aren't pairing off unless they can find a guy who always treats them like an autonomous equal, to whom consent is sacrosanct, and who would never dream of being coercively possessive. That's the demographic that is growing while the birth rate is plummeting, and it's growing for economic reasons, because avoiding guys of the sort she is attracted to is a critical way to avoid an unwanted pregnancy in the Post Roe vs. Wade era.
Victorian women reduced their fertility rate by getting into virginal prudery and considering it time to withdraw from male company if something made them blush; the current generation is reducing their fertility by considering childless cat lady as an excellent career goal. Very sensible of both cohorts - they can't afford the babies, and are embracing the social changes that will protect them from it. Social changes, of course, aren't just mild evolution in fashion, they are crusades. They are the things that matter the most to you. Your revulsion for her kink is probably related to your revulsion for Trump. Who on earth would be attracted to a bully!!?
But here's the thing - cross culturally, and historically a LOT of women are drawn to dominant, possessive men. There are evolutionary reasons for this. In many cultures and times, women who pair off with dominant possessive men do better economically and have more surviving children than women who try to make a go of it without a partner, or women who seek out partners who are prosocial. For centuries thousands of years, a woman looking for a partner had to think about it before committing to a nice gentle guy, because there were strong odds some bully would come along and plant a fist in the nose of the nice gentle guy, and this would have a strong impact on the family income and the number of surviving offspring. Not saying that women who marry bullies didn't often end up getting a fist in their own nose, and dying of childbirth, but that they still ended up producing slightly more surviving kids than the woman who opted to not get married, or who married a guy who ended up not able to support a family. Being turned on by bullies is not an evolutionary dead end.
I think that the reason some women are drawn to guys like this is biological, and that if we have some people who are gay and some who are straight, and some women who like dominant guys and some women who don't, we will end up with more kids surviving to adulthood. That is just my belief. I can't prove an antiquated socio-biological theory. But I can tell you for sure that male dominance fantasies are not rare in women. One study found that almost 65% of them had those fantasies. It's not uncommon - it's legion.
If you read romance novels you'd find that the vast majority of them are about dominant guys and women submitting to them, and one of the most common subplots is that the female lead has two love interests, one of which is soundly vanquished, often floored by a single punch, by the one she lives happily ever after with at the end of the novel. If male dominance is not your kink, you will find the entire romance novel genre truly heavy going. Yet romance novels are the highest earning genre of fiction. There's the supernatural sub-genre where the shirtless guy on the cover is a werewolf/vampire/elf/ghoul/immortal. There's the cowboy sub-genre. There's the coercive millionaire sub-genre. I could keep going, but you get the idea. There is a strong chance that your friend with her kink is a member of the majority.
Now your friend is perhaps getting fantasy muddled with reality. But maybe not. Trying to get her partner jealous is an extremely stupid thing to do, unless she knows for certain that it turns him on, and will only lead to a bewildered guy alone on the dance floor wondering where she went, while her partner and her go home early to have the kind of anger fueled sex they both enjoy. I think it is likely that your friend probably enjoyed sharing her jealous controlling partner fantasy with you, but that she has definitely also picked up on the fact that what works in fantasy is likely to end up in divorce. There is a good chance she's going to go into the next relationship with a bit more prudence, and indeed that discussion about her kink, that she had with you, was part of her figuring out what will and what won't work in real life if she starts looking for a new partner. She's showing insight, not just blindly moving toward what turns her on. "Dammit, I find jealous coercive guys hot, but they make crap partners!"
Like a Victorian woman discovering that one of her girlfriends is sexually active with multiple partners, your reaction is to be lastingly disturbed. It flies in the face of your morals, not just your common sense. It seems totally illogical of her. But that's the thing about our sexual desires. They aren't logical. They exist to make us take terrible risks, so that we find partners, and so that we have children. (Sometimes our fantasies even exist to prevent us from taking risks, as when a kid in high school crushes hard on some celebrity they will never meet, instead of crushing on anyone who attends their school.) Sex is, after all, always dangerous. Anyone who dates puts themself in danger of rape. Anyone who has sex puts themself in danger of picking up certain infections. (It's hard to swap spit without picking up the flu.) Anyone who has het sex with a corresponding fertile partner puts themself in danger of taking on a lifetime of responsibility for a child. Having sex is always risky.
If your friend is not an extremely close friend or sibling it's probably reasonable for you to just let it go and not try to alert her to the danger her kink could be leading her into. If you don't know her well enough to already know how clearly she perceives the danger of dating bullies, you probably don't know her well enough to be sure your reaction is actually genuinely protective, as opposed to deriving from you being squicked. If you are not regularly worried about her for other reasons, like her dangerous commute or her student loans, then you probably don't know her well enough to trust your feeling that she should be saved from herself. You run a danger of being morality police, as opposed to being a helpful friend.
Being worried about her isn't wrong. But since her kink is not your kink, you're probably not in a position to truly judge if she is in danger and how much danger she is in.
posted by Jane the Brown at 8:33 AM on October 19 [7 favorites]
I mean, a lot of us have this minefield with what attracts us on an instinctive level versus the sort of person that has those characteristics and who they often turn out to be.
What turns you on is often imprinted on you in ways it's hard to undo. It can change or evolve throughout life, but what's really important is to know yourself well enough to say "these are my turn-ons, and while in fantasy or fiction anything can happen, irl I need to find safe and consensual ways of seeking this out."
Hence why explicit consent and safe play are so important in the kink community. If you're a hetero woman and into the "make me" thing, you have to triage your partners REALLY carefully, and be able to draw clear lines between playspace and non-. Ideally one should have good enough communication skills to discuss kinks, boundaries and guidelines verbally, sober and fully clothed, before entering that playspace.
Obviously life and people and sex don't always work out in such a tidy fashion. And obviously also involving unknowing third parties in the way you describe above is gross and manipulative and could involve real injuries, getting banned from venues, cops, assault charges, etc.
Just, basically. If violence and aggression are things that turn this person on, she needs to be very careful who she gets with. She might consider seeking out a local kink community for people experienced with this kind of play, who (one hopes) will have a whisper network going as to who's to be trusted and who's not. Another potential pool is people who do violence in a controlled way professionally; she might look to join a martial arts gym for a self-defence class (which would be useful in any case).
To be a good friend, just keep an eye on her partners for any signs of being controlling, manipulative, or verbally abusive towards or about her. If they forbid her things or try and cut her off from her friends or family, that's a bad sign. Above all, make sure she knows she can talk to you freely, without judgement from your side. Keep that channel open.
posted by Pallas Athena at 11:31 AM on October 19 [5 favorites]
What turns you on is often imprinted on you in ways it's hard to undo. It can change or evolve throughout life, but what's really important is to know yourself well enough to say "these are my turn-ons, and while in fantasy or fiction anything can happen, irl I need to find safe and consensual ways of seeking this out."
Hence why explicit consent and safe play are so important in the kink community. If you're a hetero woman and into the "make me" thing, you have to triage your partners REALLY carefully, and be able to draw clear lines between playspace and non-. Ideally one should have good enough communication skills to discuss kinks, boundaries and guidelines verbally, sober and fully clothed, before entering that playspace.
Obviously life and people and sex don't always work out in such a tidy fashion. And obviously also involving unknowing third parties in the way you describe above is gross and manipulative and could involve real injuries, getting banned from venues, cops, assault charges, etc.
Just, basically. If violence and aggression are things that turn this person on, she needs to be very careful who she gets with. She might consider seeking out a local kink community for people experienced with this kind of play, who (one hopes) will have a whisper network going as to who's to be trusted and who's not. Another potential pool is people who do violence in a controlled way professionally; she might look to join a martial arts gym for a self-defence class (which would be useful in any case).
To be a good friend, just keep an eye on her partners for any signs of being controlling, manipulative, or verbally abusive towards or about her. If they forbid her things or try and cut her off from her friends or family, that's a bad sign. Above all, make sure she knows she can talk to you freely, without judgement from your side. Keep that channel open.
posted by Pallas Athena at 11:31 AM on October 19 [5 favorites]
The belief that women like dominant men because big bullies punched out nice guys and brought home all the mastodon During Evolution is pernicious, unscientific horseshit. The idea is not only antiquated and unprovable, but also deeply ignorant of the way evolution works.
For most of our history as a species, there have not been many humans on the planet. If being a Big Mean Man were such a winning phenotype back When Evolution Was Happening In The Deep Past, human society would look a lot more like gorilla society. If there’s anything genetic at the bottom of being a Big Mean Man, it certainly hasn’t been so disadvantageous as to have been outcompeted out of existence, so - assuming a Big Mean Man genotype even exists! - it has enough advantage to remain in the mix.
But to extrapolate the prevalence of CULTURAL values for Big Mean Men (which are driven in large part, by the way, by men who want to be Big and Mean so they can get all the women and power) into a biological origin for that value? To imagine that romance-novel plots are mostly driven by “evolution” rather than thousands of years of cultural patriarchy? That is just fucking wild.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 4:09 PM on October 19 [9 favorites]
For most of our history as a species, there have not been many humans on the planet. If being a Big Mean Man were such a winning phenotype back When Evolution Was Happening In The Deep Past, human society would look a lot more like gorilla society. If there’s anything genetic at the bottom of being a Big Mean Man, it certainly hasn’t been so disadvantageous as to have been outcompeted out of existence, so - assuming a Big Mean Man genotype even exists! - it has enough advantage to remain in the mix.
But to extrapolate the prevalence of CULTURAL values for Big Mean Men (which are driven in large part, by the way, by men who want to be Big and Mean so they can get all the women and power) into a biological origin for that value? To imagine that romance-novel plots are mostly driven by “evolution” rather than thousands of years of cultural patriarchy? That is just fucking wild.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 4:09 PM on October 19 [9 favorites]
OP, “evolution” is not a reason your friend feels this way, except in as far as both you and she are both organisms interacting in species-typical ways as a result of natural selection. It doesn’t matter if it’s because of trauma or because of a kink or any other possible reason. Knowing why she is this way will not help you figure out what to do NOW. You say you feel judgmental and worried - those feelings are real. What do *you* want to do? Break off the friendship, stop feeling judgmental and worried, give her advice, save her from bad things? Clarifying that for yourself would be helpful.
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 4:16 PM on October 19
posted by rrrrrrrrrt at 4:16 PM on October 19
I think the bottom line is that having some concern for her is fair but she's going to have to make her own mistakes.
Maybe it's a kink thing, maybe she's emotionally immature and subscribing to some truly toxic gender bullshit, sounds like probably both.
Like others, I'm not so worried about her liking to play sex brat. But you are, of course, totally correct that the guy who will play along with possibly catching an assault charge to make her feel like a wanted and protected little lady is not a guy who's likely to be especially interested in or well prepared for a healthy relationship. I.. also think it's fine to be judgmental about that, insofar as it's a thing that she is actually doing and not just a hypothetical that she knows is kind of fucked up but still makes her feel good. You don't have to tell her about your judgment, but you get to feel it (and pointing out that this is not cool on several fronts is totally okay to do if it comes up again).
Don't get ahead of yourself with the worrying, though. Support her as you can, when it's called for, in specific instances with people she is actively dating. Fretting for a month about what could potentially happen is a sign to check in with your own emotional boundaries.
posted by wormtales at 4:47 PM on October 19 [2 favorites]
Maybe it's a kink thing, maybe she's emotionally immature and subscribing to some truly toxic gender bullshit, sounds like probably both.
Like others, I'm not so worried about her liking to play sex brat. But you are, of course, totally correct that the guy who will play along with possibly catching an assault charge to make her feel like a wanted and protected little lady is not a guy who's likely to be especially interested in or well prepared for a healthy relationship. I.. also think it's fine to be judgmental about that, insofar as it's a thing that she is actually doing and not just a hypothetical that she knows is kind of fucked up but still makes her feel good. You don't have to tell her about your judgment, but you get to feel it (and pointing out that this is not cool on several fronts is totally okay to do if it comes up again).
Don't get ahead of yourself with the worrying, though. Support her as you can, when it's called for, in specific instances with people she is actively dating. Fretting for a month about what could potentially happen is a sign to check in with your own emotional boundaries.
posted by wormtales at 4:47 PM on October 19 [2 favorites]
Oof. I had a close female friend back in my college days, who had a very similar...um...approach(?) to her relationships with men, wherein she was quite excited by the idea of two men fighting over her, to the point where, much like OP’s friend, she would orchestrate public scenarios where the man she was with (always a dominant sort of male) was put in the position of getting in the face of whatever other man she had tempted in as a target. If it led to a fight, so much the better. For my friend it was a huge sexual turn-on to a) have such control over men, and b) have men battling over her.
I found it all pretty reprehensible, myself, yet also very fascinating in an “it takes all kinds” sort of way. Humans are complicated.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:15 PM on October 19 [1 favorite]
I found it all pretty reprehensible, myself, yet also very fascinating in an “it takes all kinds” sort of way. Humans are complicated.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:15 PM on October 19 [1 favorite]
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