Functioning instead of Flight, Fight, Freeze or Fawn
August 15, 2024 7:43 AM Subscribe
I'm a 43 year-old man. I am, for the most part, very capable of handling my emotions. I can stay calm — to the point of detachment — in the face of most situations. However, in one very specific situation I struggle with my fight/flight/freeze/fawn response, and I'd like to manage it better.
There are one or two specific people in my life (being deliberately vague here) who, when they get angry, I feel the need to placate. In the cases where their anger is not directed at me, this is because I just don't enjoy being in the room with someone who's in a rage. In the cases where the anger is directed at me (and let's assume I did something which would warrant that anger for the sake of this thread) this is because I just don't like certain people being angry with me.
It's probably worth noting that for people who are outside of this very small circle, I don't really give a toss if they display anger, and will simply walk away from any confrontation in order to give myself and them a chance to cool down.
I've been through Gottman-method therapy before, where the term "flooding" was talked about a lot. This is a pretty apt description of what happens when one of these few people is angry with me. I may become defensive, and fight back, or I may simply go very very quiet (a freeze response) until they've stopped expressing their anger (which can take some time) or I will simply try to agree with everything they've said, apologise, and hope that I'll find the magic words which will calm them down (fawning).
I often would like to walk away in these circumstances but it's not always possible without causing a further rupture — in all cases, my walking away would be greeted with a fairly disdainful "of course you get to walk away, it's what you always do." Or a "fine, whatever." Or, on occasion, a "don't even bother coming back" (or similar). I still will walk away sometimes, because I need to regroup and calm down (my being angry serves little to no purpose, and just prevents me from communicating effectively), but I don't always know how long to walk away for (my recovery time from anger is shorter than others', so I don't know if the argument might start again if I go back too early).
I would like to find healthy ways of either a) de-escalating these situations (Gottman talks about "the stress-reducing conversation" but that's not helpful whilst tempers are flaring), and managing that flight/fight/fawn/freeze response so that I am calmly able to say "I'm going to step away to calm down" without feeling like I'm just taking a few steps back from the edge of the crater whilst leaving the volcano to keep on bubbling.
For the purposes of this discussion you can assume these people are family, and that ending those relationships isn't a realistic option. I am in therapy, but I'm dealing with other things there.
How did you learn to manage these kinds of situations? How do you maintain zen-like calm in the face of somone else's anger or, occasionally, rage?
There are one or two specific people in my life (being deliberately vague here) who, when they get angry, I feel the need to placate. In the cases where their anger is not directed at me, this is because I just don't enjoy being in the room with someone who's in a rage. In the cases where the anger is directed at me (and let's assume I did something which would warrant that anger for the sake of this thread) this is because I just don't like certain people being angry with me.
It's probably worth noting that for people who are outside of this very small circle, I don't really give a toss if they display anger, and will simply walk away from any confrontation in order to give myself and them a chance to cool down.
I've been through Gottman-method therapy before, where the term "flooding" was talked about a lot. This is a pretty apt description of what happens when one of these few people is angry with me. I may become defensive, and fight back, or I may simply go very very quiet (a freeze response) until they've stopped expressing their anger (which can take some time) or I will simply try to agree with everything they've said, apologise, and hope that I'll find the magic words which will calm them down (fawning).
I often would like to walk away in these circumstances but it's not always possible without causing a further rupture — in all cases, my walking away would be greeted with a fairly disdainful "of course you get to walk away, it's what you always do." Or a "fine, whatever." Or, on occasion, a "don't even bother coming back" (or similar). I still will walk away sometimes, because I need to regroup and calm down (my being angry serves little to no purpose, and just prevents me from communicating effectively), but I don't always know how long to walk away for (my recovery time from anger is shorter than others', so I don't know if the argument might start again if I go back too early).
I would like to find healthy ways of either a) de-escalating these situations (Gottman talks about "the stress-reducing conversation" but that's not helpful whilst tempers are flaring), and managing that flight/fight/fawn/freeze response so that I am calmly able to say "I'm going to step away to calm down" without feeling like I'm just taking a few steps back from the edge of the crater whilst leaving the volcano to keep on bubbling.
For the purposes of this discussion you can assume these people are family, and that ending those relationships isn't a realistic option. I am in therapy, but I'm dealing with other things there.
How did you learn to manage these kinds of situations? How do you maintain zen-like calm in the face of somone else's anger or, occasionally, rage?
When you take flooding breaks, are you explicitly time-limiting them? Gottman materials are pretty clear that simply stepping away can feel very abandoning to the other partner, and that matches your description of their reactions to your breaks. Instead, they recommend that you leave with a clear, kind promise to reengage after a fixed period of time, set by your estimate of how long it'll take to physiologically self-soothe. So, not just "I'm going to take a break now" but "I need to step away for just a bit and calm down. Can I meet you here in half an hour, and I promise we'll keep talking about this?"
IIRC the Gottman method also says that both parties need to be strict about spending the break doing something pleasant and soothing and not thinking about the fight at all-- otherwise, everybody just gets even more revved up. If you feel that your partner would also benefit from breaks, but aren't sure they would know to self-soothe during that time, that might be something to discuss during a calm moment, as part of a bigger see of ground rules.
posted by Bardolph at 8:21 AM on August 15 [2 favorites]
IIRC the Gottman method also says that both parties need to be strict about spending the break doing something pleasant and soothing and not thinking about the fight at all-- otherwise, everybody just gets even more revved up. If you feel that your partner would also benefit from breaks, but aren't sure they would know to self-soothe during that time, that might be something to discuss during a calm moment, as part of a bigger see of ground rules.
posted by Bardolph at 8:21 AM on August 15 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Similar to working out a plan with the person for what to do when this happens, you should work out a plan simply with yourself. That is often the difference between Fawn and some kind of managed response: just knowing in advance and practicing what you're going to do.
And that plan can simply be a mindset shift. This is basically how customer service reps are trained, because they can only end the interaction if it escalates beyond a certain point, but they are taught to step back figuratively from personalizing the complaint, letting the person vent because they need to vent, and then providing an empathetic response and problem-solving once the person has gotten their ya-yas out. (And yes, thinking "man, I am not paid enough to take this personally" is totally one strategy.)
It can also be incredibly informative to watch some videos on managing tantrums in children. Because those are pure explosions of overwhelm, but they're also a request for support and assistance, it's "I don't have the tools or the brain development to deal with my feels, this is all I've got, please help". And part of that management process is, obviously, to not smack the child or grab your car keys and flounce, but help them land the plane of their big out-of-control feelings and not be focused on yourself.
Ultimately what you're doing is giving your nervous system a different path for processing this input. When you un-personalize so that it's not an attack on YOU, it's much easier to deal with in a sort of Bystander Mode. With adults, you probably shouldn't say it out loud but you can absolutely pity them on the inside, it's got to suck to live a life with (for whatever reason, sometimes perfectly good reasons like major stress, illness, etc) that kind of volatility.
Another thing taught in customer service training is that these outbursts are 90% of the time driven by anxiety, and if you busy yourself looking for what the actual underlying fears are, you don't have the clock-time to have such a full-on trauma response. And, yeah, sometimes that anxiety is purely "someone might tell me no/I won't get what I want" but a lot of times it has spiralled from "someone might tell me no" all the way to "and now I'm gonna die in the gutter alone and in pain" and you're like "ma'am this is a Wendys" but their fear in that moment is real even if it is ridiculous.
You can't invent an entire strategy around this in the moment of their explosion, though. You need to work through this yourself in calm moments so you are prepared when it comes.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:29 AM on August 15 [8 favorites]
And that plan can simply be a mindset shift. This is basically how customer service reps are trained, because they can only end the interaction if it escalates beyond a certain point, but they are taught to step back figuratively from personalizing the complaint, letting the person vent because they need to vent, and then providing an empathetic response and problem-solving once the person has gotten their ya-yas out. (And yes, thinking "man, I am not paid enough to take this personally" is totally one strategy.)
It can also be incredibly informative to watch some videos on managing tantrums in children. Because those are pure explosions of overwhelm, but they're also a request for support and assistance, it's "I don't have the tools or the brain development to deal with my feels, this is all I've got, please help". And part of that management process is, obviously, to not smack the child or grab your car keys and flounce, but help them land the plane of their big out-of-control feelings and not be focused on yourself.
Ultimately what you're doing is giving your nervous system a different path for processing this input. When you un-personalize so that it's not an attack on YOU, it's much easier to deal with in a sort of Bystander Mode. With adults, you probably shouldn't say it out loud but you can absolutely pity them on the inside, it's got to suck to live a life with (for whatever reason, sometimes perfectly good reasons like major stress, illness, etc) that kind of volatility.
Another thing taught in customer service training is that these outbursts are 90% of the time driven by anxiety, and if you busy yourself looking for what the actual underlying fears are, you don't have the clock-time to have such a full-on trauma response. And, yeah, sometimes that anxiety is purely "someone might tell me no/I won't get what I want" but a lot of times it has spiralled from "someone might tell me no" all the way to "and now I'm gonna die in the gutter alone and in pain" and you're like "ma'am this is a Wendys" but their fear in that moment is real even if it is ridiculous.
You can't invent an entire strategy around this in the moment of their explosion, though. You need to work through this yourself in calm moments so you are prepared when it comes.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:29 AM on August 15 [8 favorites]
Response by poster:
That last one ("I need sleep") is often a trigger for a further argument from people who don't like to go to sleep on an argument, and prefer to resolve everything before sleeping. That's a separate problem, though.
posted by gmb at 8:32 AM on August 15
When you take flooding breaks, are you explicitly time-limiting them?Yes:
- "I'm going to take 10 minutes to cool down, and then I'll come back and we can pick this up,"
- "I'm flooded right now and I'm not able to respond properly; I'm going to go for a walk and then come back — I'll try to be no more than 30 minutes."
- "I'm exhausted and I can't have this conversation tonight. I'm going to get some sleep now, and I'd like to pick this conversation up tomorrow."
That last one ("I need sleep") is often a trigger for a further argument from people who don't like to go to sleep on an argument, and prefer to resolve everything before sleeping. That's a separate problem, though.
posted by gmb at 8:32 AM on August 15
That last one ("I need sleep") is often a trigger for a further argument from people who don't like to go to sleep on an argument, and prefer to resolve everything before sleeping. That's a separate problem, though.
I don't think it is - the through-line I am seeing here are people who do not care at all what you are thinking and feeling during an argument. Like the things they are saying to you when you want to take some time to cool off are all 100% designed to make you submit to their desire to be angry at you no matter how it impacts you. To me they're all borderline or straight-up bullying responses.
There's a book I find myself recommending more and more called The Courage to be Disliked. Very popular and an easy read you can probably get at the library. It's based on Adlerian philosophy. One of the core messages from that book that I think might help you is to be able to go through an argument and determine what exactly you are responsible for and to let go of the rest - they call it the separation of tasks. And to FULLY let go of those things because no matter how much you try, you actually can't do anything about them. And knowing that - really knowing that - takes a LOT of the heat off big moments and emotions.
I find it has really helped me with handling the autonomic responses that kick in when I am stressed by something acute. It has helped me reduce the scope of the moment to something that feels manageable and therefore not overwhelming.
I would personally look at this situation and see that I am not responsible for the other person's anger, nor am I responsible for making that anger go away. I also am not really responsible for what they think of me overall. I am also not responsible for coming up with a solution they are happy with, if that is the issue.
I AM responsible for being true to myself and what I need, and in treating the other person with respect which includes listening to what they have to say and answering the question "what should I do from now on?" in a way that is true to yourself and respects that person as well. And in that you may find the moments get a bit simpler and less overwhelming overall to deal with that may assist with not getting so flooded.
posted by openhearted at 9:54 AM on August 15 [4 favorites]
I don't think it is - the through-line I am seeing here are people who do not care at all what you are thinking and feeling during an argument. Like the things they are saying to you when you want to take some time to cool off are all 100% designed to make you submit to their desire to be angry at you no matter how it impacts you. To me they're all borderline or straight-up bullying responses.
There's a book I find myself recommending more and more called The Courage to be Disliked. Very popular and an easy read you can probably get at the library. It's based on Adlerian philosophy. One of the core messages from that book that I think might help you is to be able to go through an argument and determine what exactly you are responsible for and to let go of the rest - they call it the separation of tasks. And to FULLY let go of those things because no matter how much you try, you actually can't do anything about them. And knowing that - really knowing that - takes a LOT of the heat off big moments and emotions.
I find it has really helped me with handling the autonomic responses that kick in when I am stressed by something acute. It has helped me reduce the scope of the moment to something that feels manageable and therefore not overwhelming.
I would personally look at this situation and see that I am not responsible for the other person's anger, nor am I responsible for making that anger go away. I also am not really responsible for what they think of me overall. I am also not responsible for coming up with a solution they are happy with, if that is the issue.
I AM responsible for being true to myself and what I need, and in treating the other person with respect which includes listening to what they have to say and answering the question "what should I do from now on?" in a way that is true to yourself and respects that person as well. And in that you may find the moments get a bit simpler and less overwhelming overall to deal with that may assist with not getting so flooded.
posted by openhearted at 9:54 AM on August 15 [4 favorites]
This is a heavy internal lift, because it hinges on some deep emotional beliefs (that may go against your conscious beliefs and understandings) about what your rights and responsibilities are in conflict. I've been here and it is very, very hard, especially when only one person (you) is trying to do what is necessarily a two-person job and the other party is not doing their own work around managing their own triggers and reactions.
My answer to "How do you maintain zen-like calm in the face of someone else's anger or, occasionally, rage?" is that I don't, and I don't want to. Whether the reason for the anger is valid or not, what you're describing is someone(s) who is treating you poorly. I can tolerate someone being angry with me, and I can handle the discomfort of someone expressing why they are angry in nonviolent ways. I am not okay with being yelled at or raged at. There is a difference.
I experience the same kind of flooding and the same need to remove myself from the stimulus when I've exceeded my capacity to cope with intense emotional displays, especially those directed at me in a blaming, shaming, and/or repetitive way, and I don't actually see that as something that needs to be changed: it's information telling me where my limits are, and my job is to take care of myself by heeding that. Whoever this person is/whoever these people are, they're close enough and in your emotional world deep enough that they are activating some big, old stuff for you. They're activated in their own ways, and unfortunately it tends to be the case that the loudest and most insistent coping mechanisms are the ones that get the most attention, but your quieter Stuff is every bit as worth attending to as theirs is.
When you say that leaving the situation causes additional rupture, I wonder if you're considering that the rupture is happening in both directions. Whose responsibility is the expression of contempt in response to you calmly exiting the situation? It sounds like you are implementing the recommended communication about needing to step away, which is you doing your part to manage your needs and reactions in a relationally responsible way; at what point is it the other person's responsibility to be able, as an adult, to manage their own emotional experience in the interim? I say this not because I think you can convince them of this, but because convincing yourself of this on a deep level and validating your experience that what is happening is not actually acceptable go directly to the part of you that believes that it is your responsibility to placate and that you are less deserving of having your needs in conflict met. I would hope that defining the rules of engagement in a calmer moment for would help you with the 'how to defuse' part, but if you don't have that buy-in, at least know that this isn't the kind of thing you need to conform to or be okay with (meaning: it's upsetting, and it's okay to be upset and to do what you need to do to regulate yourself).
posted by wormtales at 10:03 AM on August 15 [6 favorites]
My answer to "How do you maintain zen-like calm in the face of someone else's anger or, occasionally, rage?" is that I don't, and I don't want to. Whether the reason for the anger is valid or not, what you're describing is someone(s) who is treating you poorly. I can tolerate someone being angry with me, and I can handle the discomfort of someone expressing why they are angry in nonviolent ways. I am not okay with being yelled at or raged at. There is a difference.
I experience the same kind of flooding and the same need to remove myself from the stimulus when I've exceeded my capacity to cope with intense emotional displays, especially those directed at me in a blaming, shaming, and/or repetitive way, and I don't actually see that as something that needs to be changed: it's information telling me where my limits are, and my job is to take care of myself by heeding that. Whoever this person is/whoever these people are, they're close enough and in your emotional world deep enough that they are activating some big, old stuff for you. They're activated in their own ways, and unfortunately it tends to be the case that the loudest and most insistent coping mechanisms are the ones that get the most attention, but your quieter Stuff is every bit as worth attending to as theirs is.
When you say that leaving the situation causes additional rupture, I wonder if you're considering that the rupture is happening in both directions. Whose responsibility is the expression of contempt in response to you calmly exiting the situation? It sounds like you are implementing the recommended communication about needing to step away, which is you doing your part to manage your needs and reactions in a relationally responsible way; at what point is it the other person's responsibility to be able, as an adult, to manage their own emotional experience in the interim? I say this not because I think you can convince them of this, but because convincing yourself of this on a deep level and validating your experience that what is happening is not actually acceptable go directly to the part of you that believes that it is your responsibility to placate and that you are less deserving of having your needs in conflict met. I would hope that defining the rules of engagement in a calmer moment for would help you with the 'how to defuse' part, but if you don't have that buy-in, at least know that this isn't the kind of thing you need to conform to or be okay with (meaning: it's upsetting, and it's okay to be upset and to do what you need to do to regulate yourself).
posted by wormtales at 10:03 AM on August 15 [6 favorites]
You're asking how to dissociate in the face of ongoing abuse. How do you do that? Same way you get to Carnegie Hall: practice, practice, practice.
When you're faced with behavior from another person that sets your nervous system jangling, your body flooding with adrenaline, and the voices in your head screaming at you to flee, just...don't! Ride it out! Do everything you can to detach yourself and float away. Concentrate on your breathing, repeat a mantra, look at a still spot on the far side of the room, practice saying out loud the memorized sentence your couple's therapist told you to use as a magic phrase when your conversation partner gets upset. Do not object when they attack you--that's defensiveness, a big Gottman no-no. Don't get up and leave -- that's abandonment, and will only makes the situation worse. Just stay calm, and don't react with anything other than unconditional support, no matter what they do. Because what matters is that you're signaling to the other person that no matter what they say, no matter how they treat you, you will not react.
This is what de-escalates the situation, almost always. It turns out, lots of people -- especially controlling, deeply anxious people -- find this very, very calming. For a while. Of course, once you've learned how to control your behavior, and your words, and your tone of voice, you'll have to work on your micro-expressions, which - it turns out - can also set extremely anxious and demanding people off. Ask me how I know.
God gave us the ability to temporarily ignore our emotional reactions in extremely stressful situations for a reason: so we could get out. But the feelings don't go away. They're building up, and if you keep returning, over and over again, to situations that evoke them, they will find other ways to escape -- in addiction, in self-harm, in chronic pain, anxiety and depression. You can keep doing this as long as you want, and the more you practice, the better you will get. But please do not deceive yourself about the cost.
posted by Merricat Blackwood at 12:39 PM on August 15 [5 favorites]
When you're faced with behavior from another person that sets your nervous system jangling, your body flooding with adrenaline, and the voices in your head screaming at you to flee, just...don't! Ride it out! Do everything you can to detach yourself and float away. Concentrate on your breathing, repeat a mantra, look at a still spot on the far side of the room, practice saying out loud the memorized sentence your couple's therapist told you to use as a magic phrase when your conversation partner gets upset. Do not object when they attack you--that's defensiveness, a big Gottman no-no. Don't get up and leave -- that's abandonment, and will only makes the situation worse. Just stay calm, and don't react with anything other than unconditional support, no matter what they do. Because what matters is that you're signaling to the other person that no matter what they say, no matter how they treat you, you will not react.
This is what de-escalates the situation, almost always. It turns out, lots of people -- especially controlling, deeply anxious people -- find this very, very calming. For a while. Of course, once you've learned how to control your behavior, and your words, and your tone of voice, you'll have to work on your micro-expressions, which - it turns out - can also set extremely anxious and demanding people off. Ask me how I know.
God gave us the ability to temporarily ignore our emotional reactions in extremely stressful situations for a reason: so we could get out. But the feelings don't go away. They're building up, and if you keep returning, over and over again, to situations that evoke them, they will find other ways to escape -- in addiction, in self-harm, in chronic pain, anxiety and depression. You can keep doing this as long as you want, and the more you practice, the better you will get. But please do not deceive yourself about the cost.
posted by Merricat Blackwood at 12:39 PM on August 15 [5 favorites]
Best answer: If this is happening with specific people, it may be that the problem is not your response, but their inability to turn off the rage. You may be blaming yourself for not handling it better when there IS no way to actually handle it, or to protect yourself from their rage, which won't make the situation worse.
I've known people who could not turn off their tantrum/anxiety attack and nothing I could say or do helped. Setting boundaries with one of them resulted in her becoming obsessively angry with me, so that she spent the next several years ruminating about how badly I had treated her, and letting everyone who was willing to listen to it hear about it. Since no one stepped up to take the role of listening to her until she calmed down, as far as I can tell she ended up spending several hours every day raging about me and how badly I let her down and ruminated about it constantly.
It's worth considering if the people who rage at your are struggling as badly to control their emotions as the ones who used to lose control at me. Is their really is a way to let them rage that doesn't involve you sitting their and soaking their loss of control? There is a reason you have fallen into doing things this way. It may be your best way to prevent even worse behavior from them. You probably would have already set boundaries with them, if that would have worked.
Also keep in mind that flooding and going mute, or fawning are both MUCH BETTER RESPONSES than escalating rage or despair. Rather than feeling inadequate for not handling your emotions around their rage better, give yourself some credit. You have found a way to respond which does not involve the two of you trading blows, them getting so angry they throw things, you making threats, or you self harming. Rage is a terrible thing, which is difficult to handle. Believe it or not, you have been handling it well. You may not like the way you have been handling it, but you are keeping it out of a domestic violence situation and that sometimes counts for a lot. You're not sobbing uncontrollably, you're not getting things thrown at you... Hundreds of thousands of people do end up in situations that escalate and get much worse than the one you are in; you have been keeping things from getting any worse than it is.
I am concerned about, "...don't even bother coming back..." If someone says this, and then continues having the same old relationship with you that they always did, they are getting mileage out of raging and tormenting you. In my own life I have realised that when someone say something along that line it is my cue to end the relationship. If they take back what they say the next day, then they are not saying things that actually means anything. If they say something of that nature they are demonstrating that their words and actions are performative and they are playing a role without regard to the actual circumstances they are in. You might be in the real life role of husband, or father, or son, or friend but they will never react to you as that, because they have cast you as the heel, the villain, the son who broke their heart, the liar, the cheat, the sexist pig, or whatever it is they need you to be, to play the role of the antagonist for their own role of the victim and person who has been wronged.
One thing you might try doing when you are flooding is to start filming them - this will give you a chance to watch them on camera and listen to them again when you are no longer with them and under direct threat, so that you can analyze what they are saying, and try to figure the patterns out. There is a very good chance that instead of agreeing that filming is a good tool for you to use so that you can deal with feeling flooded, they will be extremely outraged because they know how badly they are behaving and how badly they they will appear. You should only suggest this if you are prepared for them to react very badly indeed.
Filming can be a good idea because they may stop raging as strongly once you start filming making things easier for you, or else you may get some insight into what is triggering you to go into the fawning or the freezing. This is only if they don't become so enraged they attack you or your phone. An alternative to filming them is to ask a third party to witness the "discussion" and give you feedback later. Let your witness know you don't want them to mediate the fight, but to help you figure out where and why you are reacting in a way you don't like. If your witness takes sides or tries to mediate, they won't be useful to you to figuring out how to react differently.
It goes without saying that you should delete the film soon after, and under no circumstances show it to ANYONE without the angry person's permission, unless you are using it as evidence to press charges of assault.
A very good boundary to work on setting, if it is relevant to you, is to never, ever stay in an emotional discussion with someone who has been drinking. Just as you don't have sex with someone when they have been drinking because they don't have the capacity for consent, it is a good idea to not allow someone who has been drinking to mistreat you. Be the designated driver and tell them that you will be glad to continue discussing the situation AFTER they have sobered up, but right now they can't be held responsible for anything they say - which means there is no point you listening to anything they say either.
posted by Jane the Brown at 2:35 PM on August 15
I've known people who could not turn off their tantrum/anxiety attack and nothing I could say or do helped. Setting boundaries with one of them resulted in her becoming obsessively angry with me, so that she spent the next several years ruminating about how badly I had treated her, and letting everyone who was willing to listen to it hear about it. Since no one stepped up to take the role of listening to her until she calmed down, as far as I can tell she ended up spending several hours every day raging about me and how badly I let her down and ruminated about it constantly.
It's worth considering if the people who rage at your are struggling as badly to control their emotions as the ones who used to lose control at me. Is their really is a way to let them rage that doesn't involve you sitting their and soaking their loss of control? There is a reason you have fallen into doing things this way. It may be your best way to prevent even worse behavior from them. You probably would have already set boundaries with them, if that would have worked.
Also keep in mind that flooding and going mute, or fawning are both MUCH BETTER RESPONSES than escalating rage or despair. Rather than feeling inadequate for not handling your emotions around their rage better, give yourself some credit. You have found a way to respond which does not involve the two of you trading blows, them getting so angry they throw things, you making threats, or you self harming. Rage is a terrible thing, which is difficult to handle. Believe it or not, you have been handling it well. You may not like the way you have been handling it, but you are keeping it out of a domestic violence situation and that sometimes counts for a lot. You're not sobbing uncontrollably, you're not getting things thrown at you... Hundreds of thousands of people do end up in situations that escalate and get much worse than the one you are in; you have been keeping things from getting any worse than it is.
I am concerned about, "...don't even bother coming back..." If someone says this, and then continues having the same old relationship with you that they always did, they are getting mileage out of raging and tormenting you. In my own life I have realised that when someone say something along that line it is my cue to end the relationship. If they take back what they say the next day, then they are not saying things that actually means anything. If they say something of that nature they are demonstrating that their words and actions are performative and they are playing a role without regard to the actual circumstances they are in. You might be in the real life role of husband, or father, or son, or friend but they will never react to you as that, because they have cast you as the heel, the villain, the son who broke their heart, the liar, the cheat, the sexist pig, or whatever it is they need you to be, to play the role of the antagonist for their own role of the victim and person who has been wronged.
One thing you might try doing when you are flooding is to start filming them - this will give you a chance to watch them on camera and listen to them again when you are no longer with them and under direct threat, so that you can analyze what they are saying, and try to figure the patterns out. There is a very good chance that instead of agreeing that filming is a good tool for you to use so that you can deal with feeling flooded, they will be extremely outraged because they know how badly they are behaving and how badly they they will appear. You should only suggest this if you are prepared for them to react very badly indeed.
Filming can be a good idea because they may stop raging as strongly once you start filming making things easier for you, or else you may get some insight into what is triggering you to go into the fawning or the freezing. This is only if they don't become so enraged they attack you or your phone. An alternative to filming them is to ask a third party to witness the "discussion" and give you feedback later. Let your witness know you don't want them to mediate the fight, but to help you figure out where and why you are reacting in a way you don't like. If your witness takes sides or tries to mediate, they won't be useful to you to figuring out how to react differently.
It goes without saying that you should delete the film soon after, and under no circumstances show it to ANYONE without the angry person's permission, unless you are using it as evidence to press charges of assault.
A very good boundary to work on setting, if it is relevant to you, is to never, ever stay in an emotional discussion with someone who has been drinking. Just as you don't have sex with someone when they have been drinking because they don't have the capacity for consent, it is a good idea to not allow someone who has been drinking to mistreat you. Be the designated driver and tell them that you will be glad to continue discussing the situation AFTER they have sobered up, but right now they can't be held responsible for anything they say - which means there is no point you listening to anything they say either.
posted by Jane the Brown at 2:35 PM on August 15
Look up "family connections" + "dbt".
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:24 PM on August 15
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:24 PM on August 15
Best answer: YOU - "The level of escalation in this conversation is making it hard for me to engage. You are important to me, and I want to talk with you about this, and I want to find a solution that works for us. But yelling and name calling isn't helping us reach a solution, and it feels harmful and unsustainable for my mental health. So, I need a break to cool down. I'm going to leave now and would love to talk about this tomorrow, as long as we can do it without yelling."
THEM - "Of course you get to walk away, it's what you always do."
YOU - "I'll come back tomorrow, I can talk any time between 2pm-6pm. Does that work for you? You can text me if you need time to figure out the right time of day."
THEM - "fine, whatever."
YOU - Ok cool, see you tomorrow, bye.
THEM - "If you leave, don't come back."
YOU - "The way you said that, it sounds like you're suggesting we end our relationship, and that isn't what I'm trying to achieve. I care about our relationship and I want to solve our problems. I just can't participate in yelling and name calling. It's becoming a pattern and it does not work for me.
If you honestly want to end our relationship - and I hope you don't - but if you do, that should be its own conversation, not something that's said in anger.
So I'm going ask you this just once.... If you actually want me to leave and never come back, please tell me that in a calm conversation, and we can start figuring out how to sever our relationship.
I care about you and I value our relationship. Relationships can be broken, and I need you to understand, "go and don't come back" is a phrase that is coming close to breaking our relationship. So if that's what you want, I'll be hurt but I'll go. And if that's NOT what you want, .... then please do not say that to me again.
Thanks for listening. I'm gonna go now, I can come back tomorrow any time between 2-6pm - let me know what works for you."
posted by nouvelle-personne at 3:12 PM on August 16 [3 favorites]
THEM - "Of course you get to walk away, it's what you always do."
YOU - "I'll come back tomorrow, I can talk any time between 2pm-6pm. Does that work for you? You can text me if you need time to figure out the right time of day."
THEM - "fine, whatever."
YOU - Ok cool, see you tomorrow, bye.
THEM - "If you leave, don't come back."
YOU - "The way you said that, it sounds like you're suggesting we end our relationship, and that isn't what I'm trying to achieve. I care about our relationship and I want to solve our problems. I just can't participate in yelling and name calling. It's becoming a pattern and it does not work for me.
If you honestly want to end our relationship - and I hope you don't - but if you do, that should be its own conversation, not something that's said in anger.
So I'm going ask you this just once.... If you actually want me to leave and never come back, please tell me that in a calm conversation, and we can start figuring out how to sever our relationship.
I care about you and I value our relationship. Relationships can be broken, and I need you to understand, "go and don't come back" is a phrase that is coming close to breaking our relationship. So if that's what you want, I'll be hurt but I'll go. And if that's NOT what you want, .... then please do not say that to me again.
Thanks for listening. I'm gonna go now, I can come back tomorrow any time between 2-6pm - let me know what works for you."
posted by nouvelle-personne at 3:12 PM on August 16 [3 favorites]
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If the relationship is actually pretty good, then what you might be able to do instead is ask how they want those situations to go. Sometimes people feel dismissed and unheard when they get mad and people don't get mad back! (This is baffling to me, but it exists!) Sometimes people feel like when they get angry is the only time they are heard on whatever the subject is. (This is often the case if people grew up in situations where their emotions were routinely dismissed until and unless they pitched a temper tantrum. The behavior remains even if the cause is no longer there.) This is the kind of conversation that counseling is specifically good at facilitating, but you may not be in a position to propose that constructively, depending.
And it may be that these are not people who are willing to examine their own behavior or their relationship with you calmly at all. If that's the case, say your piece and then enforce that boundary. If the situation gets too ragey, walk away/hang up the phone. There's no virtue in just hanging around to be a target.
posted by restless_nomad at 8:08 AM on August 15 [11 favorites]