Brother threatened to shoot me (over text) over small argument
June 17, 2024 5:04 PM Subscribe
My brother (42m), who i've had a mostly chill though superficial relationship with growing up, has been getting really into weaponry. Recently, we had a small argument * over text, not in person * - we live in different cities - where he tried to get me to do something I wasn't that comfortable with (though not that big a deal), and I stood up for myself, and he got angrier and angrier and said if I were there he would shoot me/use his weapons on me, and made it clear he was not joking. Now I don't feel safe around him and not sure what to do next with our relationship.
For background, my family is a very “we don’t do conflict, emotional intimacy, communication” type family - on the surface they try very hard to appear normal and nice, but there has been dysfunction behind closed doors.
Growing up, my brother and I had a relatively chill relationship (though superficial, just kids goofing around mostly but not much beyond that due to the family dynamics). In recent years (as adults who live in different cities), my brother has started getting really into weaponry (collecting guns and crossbows etc. and has told me he uses them to let off steam when he’s angry, to the point of accidentally damaging parts of his house). The incident that has me questioning things is that recently we got into a small argument over text (he wanted me to do something I wasn’t comfortable with, but it was kind of a trivial thing I thought). He started saying I was making him angry, and when I tried to stand up for myself in a civil but assertive way, he got even more angry and said that if I were there he would shoot me, plus other things about using his weapons. I tried to clarify that this wasn’t a funny thing to say if he were joking, and he made it clear that he was dead serious.
I feel very conflicted about this. We haven’t really talked since and I’m not sure if this is like a “sometimes in the heat of the moment people say these things but you can still have a relationship with them” or a “this isn’t salvageable” situation. Can’t really get over the feeling of not feeling safe being around him or feeling like I’ll set him off. He was nice growing up, but started changing as we got older. Was hoping to get some objective outside views on this, and any suggestions for what to do about it and the relationship.
For background, my family is a very “we don’t do conflict, emotional intimacy, communication” type family - on the surface they try very hard to appear normal and nice, but there has been dysfunction behind closed doors.
Growing up, my brother and I had a relatively chill relationship (though superficial, just kids goofing around mostly but not much beyond that due to the family dynamics). In recent years (as adults who live in different cities), my brother has started getting really into weaponry (collecting guns and crossbows etc. and has told me he uses them to let off steam when he’s angry, to the point of accidentally damaging parts of his house). The incident that has me questioning things is that recently we got into a small argument over text (he wanted me to do something I wasn’t comfortable with, but it was kind of a trivial thing I thought). He started saying I was making him angry, and when I tried to stand up for myself in a civil but assertive way, he got even more angry and said that if I were there he would shoot me, plus other things about using his weapons. I tried to clarify that this wasn’t a funny thing to say if he were joking, and he made it clear that he was dead serious.
I feel very conflicted about this. We haven’t really talked since and I’m not sure if this is like a “sometimes in the heat of the moment people say these things but you can still have a relationship with them” or a “this isn’t salvageable” situation. Can’t really get over the feeling of not feeling safe being around him or feeling like I’ll set him off. He was nice growing up, but started changing as we got older. Was hoping to get some objective outside views on this, and any suggestions for what to do about it and the relationship.
This is a hard no-contact from me. He literally threatened to kill you, and not in a joking way.
What will he do next time "in the heat of the moment?"
posted by praemunire at 5:13 PM on June 17 [49 favorites]
What will he do next time "in the heat of the moment?"
posted by praemunire at 5:13 PM on June 17 [49 favorites]
Stay the hell away from him.
We have no idea what might be going on in his life, but using weaponry to "let off steam" is a Bad Thing. That's even before we get to the threatening bit. Look, I was childhood friends with a guy that owns more than one fifty-cal machinegun (yes, really), and has more than one MP5 in his basement safe, so the weapons part doesn't greatly concern me.
Your brother worries me. What he does with them, and has threatened you with them, worries me greatly.
Stay the hell away from him.
posted by aramaic at 5:14 PM on June 17 [39 favorites]
We have no idea what might be going on in his life, but using weaponry to "let off steam" is a Bad Thing. That's even before we get to the threatening bit. Look, I was childhood friends with a guy that owns more than one fifty-cal machinegun (yes, really), and has more than one MP5 in his basement safe, so the weapons part doesn't greatly concern me.
Your brother worries me. What he does with them, and has threatened you with them, worries me greatly.
Stay the hell away from him.
posted by aramaic at 5:14 PM on June 17 [39 favorites]
I used to know someone who said he wanted to shoot people. I wasn't sure at the time how serious he was.
I'm sorry to say that he ended up shooting people.
I know I'm a stranger and he's your brother, making this easy advice to give and hard advice to take, but I would strongly advise you not to be around him again.
posted by lampoil at 5:16 PM on June 17 [47 favorites]
I'm sorry to say that he ended up shooting people.
I know I'm a stranger and he's your brother, making this easy advice to give and hard advice to take, but I would strongly advise you not to be around him again.
posted by lampoil at 5:16 PM on June 17 [47 favorites]
My brother is a gun idiot and a political idiot and has anger problems and he and I have a lot of philosophical disagreements and we don't talk about feelings in our family either, and he's never once said he'd like to shoot me.
I strongly recommend you cease contact with him and get therapy for yourself asap to gain some coping skills as you navigate this, because wow it's a super not good situation and I know what it feels like to have your heart broken by family.
posted by phunniemee at 5:20 PM on June 17 [23 favorites]
I strongly recommend you cease contact with him and get therapy for yourself asap to gain some coping skills as you navigate this, because wow it's a super not good situation and I know what it feels like to have your heart broken by family.
posted by phunniemee at 5:20 PM on June 17 [23 favorites]
OK, a few minutes later and I want to add a detail to my response -- if you move, don't tell him where. Really.
No, really, I'm not joking.
posted by aramaic at 5:22 PM on June 17 [38 favorites]
No, really, I'm not joking.
posted by aramaic at 5:22 PM on June 17 [38 favorites]
Now I don't feel safe around him and not sure what to do next with our relationship.
Uh… what you do now is have nothing to do with him, since he THREATENED TO KILL YOU. If he decides he was “joking” or whatever at some point in the future you can deal with that when it happens, but right now the correct course of action is blindingly obvious.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 5:22 PM on June 17 [5 favorites]
Uh… what you do now is have nothing to do with him, since he THREATENED TO KILL YOU. If he decides he was “joking” or whatever at some point in the future you can deal with that when it happens, but right now the correct course of action is blindingly obvious.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 5:22 PM on June 17 [5 favorites]
Yes, stay away, and don't respond to texts from him for a while.
Do you have any trusted mutual family members or friends? Do tell them what happened. Maybe they have some additional information on his current mental health. Don't use that information to try to "smooth over" the situation with your brother, but if his doing this with you, he may do this with other family members. This kind of information can be safety for them and possibly you too.
posted by Silvery Fish at 5:22 PM on June 17 [10 favorites]
Do you have any trusted mutual family members or friends? Do tell them what happened. Maybe they have some additional information on his current mental health. Don't use that information to try to "smooth over" the situation with your brother, but if his doing this with you, he may do this with other family members. This kind of information can be safety for them and possibly you too.
posted by Silvery Fish at 5:22 PM on June 17 [10 favorites]
In some countries (including mine), this is "uttering threats" and is a crime. I encourage you to report it to the police, whether or not it's a crime in your country.
posted by heatherlogan at 5:22 PM on June 17 [22 favorites]
posted by heatherlogan at 5:22 PM on June 17 [22 favorites]
Oh yeah, this was over text? Absolutely report him to the authorities. He’ll probably be pissed, but better to have him start understanding the consequences of his actions now than sometime in the future when he decides to do something even more stupid.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 5:27 PM on June 17 [8 favorites]
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 5:27 PM on June 17 [8 favorites]
Are there red flag laws where he lives?
posted by amanda at 5:30 PM on June 17 [24 favorites]
posted by amanda at 5:30 PM on June 17 [24 favorites]
Trust your gut on this one. Listen to your gut when it tells you "hell no".
I have multiple friends who are into weaponry, they're knowledgeable about it and find it fun. None of them use it as an outlet for their anger.
Seconding those who said "tell people what your brother said, tell them he was serious, tell them you are worried." Keep the texts, or a screenshot of them. If he harms someone in the future, those texts are evidence.
Depending on the laws where he is, you may be able to use the texts to get his guns confiscated. Being able to prove that he's a danger to himself or others is usually the threshold for that.
posted by Pallas Athena at 5:33 PM on June 17 [24 favorites]
I have multiple friends who are into weaponry, they're knowledgeable about it and find it fun. None of them use it as an outlet for their anger.
Seconding those who said "tell people what your brother said, tell them he was serious, tell them you are worried." Keep the texts, or a screenshot of them. If he harms someone in the future, those texts are evidence.
Depending on the laws where he is, you may be able to use the texts to get his guns confiscated. Being able to prove that he's a danger to himself or others is usually the threshold for that.
posted by Pallas Athena at 5:33 PM on June 17 [24 favorites]
I have people in my family who own guns and crossbows. They use them for hunting and recreation, not for blowing off steam when they are angry and damaging their homes. Your brother sounds like an irresponsible gun owner and if he's in a state with red flag laws I would make sure the people who live near him know this and know how to get action taken if need be. Save those texts, they might be needed evidence to show a pattern of escalating behavior.
This is a person I would not want to socialize with or engage with on even the most superficial level. I hope you talk about this with other family members. It's important to know how he is treating other people and your family needs to understand why you won't be engaging with your brother for the time being, unless he gets some help.
posted by brookeb at 5:57 PM on June 17 [6 favorites]
This is a person I would not want to socialize with or engage with on even the most superficial level. I hope you talk about this with other family members. It's important to know how he is treating other people and your family needs to understand why you won't be engaging with your brother for the time being, unless he gets some help.
posted by brookeb at 5:57 PM on June 17 [6 favorites]
I know a lot of people who use guns to blow off steam and threaten to shoot others like them in the face that I’m not worried about- they are veterans and it’s normative in that culture. But here’s the thing. They say shit like that to other veterans, not their family, and they don’t shoot up their houses. That’s mall ninja shit, and we all consider that dangerous as fuck. I would steer well clear, and I say this as a gunny person with more tolerance than most.
posted by corb at 6:09 PM on June 17 [18 favorites]
posted by corb at 6:09 PM on June 17 [18 favorites]
Any third-party he respects that can get a word to him that he needs to go see a doctor about blowing up like that? This can be a health-related issue, losing mood control over something so trivial.
posted by kschang at 6:12 PM on June 17 [6 favorites]
posted by kschang at 6:12 PM on June 17 [6 favorites]
This is deeply unacceptable. People who are into weaponry as a hobby are usually obsessive about safety and etiquette, and even the (asshole) people I’ve known who joke about shooting others would only do so in hypothetical, generalized language. (I’ve spent a lot of time in Texas and had to play nice with neighbors.) Never have I heard someone who is armed threaten to shoot a specific person, especially not someone they are talking to, especially not family. It’s seriously worrying. The only person I can think of who did anything like that was a man in my family who was abusive and otherwise violent and ended up taking his own life decades ago - he threatened his siblings and wife.
Upon preview, yes, I’ve known a fair number of veterans who clearly code switch when with their veteran buddies vs talking to me and other non-gun people. They would also make it clear in context that the threats are facetious, and not double down the seriousness like you describe happened.
Keep a record of these texts and do what you need to do to stay safe. At minimum, don’t speak to your brother for a while and allow time for cooling off. I honestly would cease contact after this but I am not you and don’t know your family dynamic.
posted by Mizu at 6:16 PM on June 17 [4 favorites]
Upon preview, yes, I’ve known a fair number of veterans who clearly code switch when with their veteran buddies vs talking to me and other non-gun people. They would also make it clear in context that the threats are facetious, and not double down the seriousness like you describe happened.
Keep a record of these texts and do what you need to do to stay safe. At minimum, don’t speak to your brother for a while and allow time for cooling off. I honestly would cease contact after this but I am not you and don’t know your family dynamic.
posted by Mizu at 6:16 PM on June 17 [4 favorites]
If I received a credible death threat, I would save the evidence and immediately contact the police.
posted by ElKevbo at 6:23 PM on June 17 [8 favorites]
posted by ElKevbo at 6:23 PM on June 17 [8 favorites]
This isn't salvageable.
As someone who lives in a red-flag state, I'd be real sure that the police will act on it before making that report. It's effectively up to the cops' discretion, and they often don't. Some sheriffs here in Colorado openly refuse to enforce the law. Especially since he lives in a place where he can shoot freely enough to shoot his own house and not be in jail already; his local law enforcement would probably shrug it off. Cf. the Lewiston shooter.
posted by McBearclaw at 6:31 PM on June 17 [5 favorites]
As someone who lives in a red-flag state, I'd be real sure that the police will act on it before making that report. It's effectively up to the cops' discretion, and they often don't. Some sheriffs here in Colorado openly refuse to enforce the law. Especially since he lives in a place where he can shoot freely enough to shoot his own house and not be in jail already; his local law enforcement would probably shrug it off. Cf. the Lewiston shooter.
posted by McBearclaw at 6:31 PM on June 17 [5 favorites]
Others have already covered how deeply concerning and unacceptable this behaviour is.
I just wanted to highlight as well that the reason he got so angry was because you were refusing to do something he wanted you to do. That element of controlling behaviour is extremely common in men who hurt or kill their family members, and adds another layer of concern to the situation - if someone threatening to kill you with weapons he already owns wasn't concerning enough already, which it really, really is.
posted by randomnity at 6:35 PM on June 17 [37 favorites]
I just wanted to highlight as well that the reason he got so angry was because you were refusing to do something he wanted you to do. That element of controlling behaviour is extremely common in men who hurt or kill their family members, and adds another layer of concern to the situation - if someone threatening to kill you with weapons he already owns wasn't concerning enough already, which it really, really is.
posted by randomnity at 6:35 PM on June 17 [37 favorites]
I would take this seriously. I don’t think this is salvageable.
Is it tenable to go no contact? If your parents are still living and don’t handle conflict well, you will need to think carefully about how to handle them too, because even if you cut off contact they may offer him a back door path to reach you. I might reach out to a local domestic violence org if you have one. They will understand why this is worrisome and should have some ideas.
posted by eirias at 6:50 PM on June 17 [2 favorites]
Is it tenable to go no contact? If your parents are still living and don’t handle conflict well, you will need to think carefully about how to handle them too, because even if you cut off contact they may offer him a back door path to reach you. I might reach out to a local domestic violence org if you have one. They will understand why this is worrisome and should have some ideas.
posted by eirias at 6:50 PM on June 17 [2 favorites]
I have not personally dealt with this as in being the person threatened, but I have been in a family with something similar. It did not go well and although no one was shot, there was a lot of really terrible stuff that was said and that happened.
I think your brother needs professional help, but because of his reaction to your pushing back on a very mild thing, you cannot be the person to try to get him that help (and probably not any family members.)
I think your highest priority is yourself and to take his threats seriously. I think those feelings you are having are Gift of Fear feelings - your gut is telling you that your brother is not safe, and it's best to honour those. If you haven't read that book, it's not a bad time to. That's really what I came in to say - those feelings you are having are not drama, they are your lifetime of knowledge of your brother's patterns and how people work coming together to give you a threat assessment on the intuitive level.
I recommend cutting contact, and getting professional support as you navigate this.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:52 PM on June 17 [19 favorites]
I think your brother needs professional help, but because of his reaction to your pushing back on a very mild thing, you cannot be the person to try to get him that help (and probably not any family members.)
I think your highest priority is yourself and to take his threats seriously. I think those feelings you are having are Gift of Fear feelings - your gut is telling you that your brother is not safe, and it's best to honour those. If you haven't read that book, it's not a bad time to. That's really what I came in to say - those feelings you are having are not drama, they are your lifetime of knowledge of your brother's patterns and how people work coming together to give you a threat assessment on the intuitive level.
I recommend cutting contact, and getting professional support as you navigate this.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:52 PM on June 17 [19 favorites]
Just want to note that if he’s shooting inside of or too close to the house to “blow off steam,” the damage he’s doing to his house is not really accidental; it’s more like he’s extremely reckless and fires weapons on purpose when he’s not in control of his mental state. If anyone lives with him, they aren’t safe!
Listen to the part of yourself that knows he isn’t safe; it will be tempting to doubt yourself because we naturally want to go back to normal, but in this case you’re completely right in your doubts and unease.
If cutting him off forever feels too final, tell yourself this: he fucked up with you. Any decent person would know that. If he ever gets it together and becomes decent again, he can prove it—but that’s on him to prove. Until he can do that to your satisfaction, he’s a person who threatened you, confirmed he meant it, and has the means to carry it out.
I do think you should consider reporting him to police but I get why you wouldn’t. I would certainly share with the rest of the family (unless you think they will minimize this.)
posted by kapers at 7:09 PM on June 17 [7 favorites]
Listen to the part of yourself that knows he isn’t safe; it will be tempting to doubt yourself because we naturally want to go back to normal, but in this case you’re completely right in your doubts and unease.
If cutting him off forever feels too final, tell yourself this: he fucked up with you. Any decent person would know that. If he ever gets it together and becomes decent again, he can prove it—but that’s on him to prove. Until he can do that to your satisfaction, he’s a person who threatened you, confirmed he meant it, and has the means to carry it out.
I do think you should consider reporting him to police but I get why you wouldn’t. I would certainly share with the rest of the family (unless you think they will minimize this.)
posted by kapers at 7:09 PM on June 17 [7 favorites]
I would look into whether there's any avenue to
a) have Police temporarily remove his guns
b) prevent him from buying new guns
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 7:11 PM on June 17 [3 favorites]
a) have Police temporarily remove his guns
b) prevent him from buying new guns
posted by chariot pulled by cassowaries at 7:11 PM on June 17 [3 favorites]
Yeah where I live, this would be so serious that he’d likely be charged, today, and the police would take away all his guns and revoke his licence on the spot, and there would be a good chance he’d go to prison. That’s how seriously you should take it.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 7:12 PM on June 17 [11 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 7:12 PM on June 17 [11 favorites]
In your shoes, I would not interact with that person again.
If he's in a relationship, make sure his partner knows he threatened to kill you.
If he has children, see what you can do about getting them out of his home.
If he's close to anyone you love, let them know what he said.
Consider involving the police.
Consider hiding from him permanently (new address, phone, etc)
Someone who knows you well, who has poor emotional regulation, and who has the means to kill you, has literally THREATENED TO KILL YOU. This is a very serious threat.
I know one person who used to "joke" online about shooting people. I didn't know about his many guns or online gun jokes, but he was charming and charismatic in person. Luckily, someone I trusted warned me to stay away from him because of his relationship to guns, so I did. He later shot his girlfriend and then himself. After his suicide, digging back through his online accounts was absolutely chilling. All the signs were there and nobody took them seriously.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 8:10 PM on June 17 [20 favorites]
If he's in a relationship, make sure his partner knows he threatened to kill you.
If he has children, see what you can do about getting them out of his home.
If he's close to anyone you love, let them know what he said.
Consider involving the police.
Consider hiding from him permanently (new address, phone, etc)
Someone who knows you well, who has poor emotional regulation, and who has the means to kill you, has literally THREATENED TO KILL YOU. This is a very serious threat.
I know one person who used to "joke" online about shooting people. I didn't know about his many guns or online gun jokes, but he was charming and charismatic in person. Luckily, someone I trusted warned me to stay away from him because of his relationship to guns, so I did. He later shot his girlfriend and then himself. After his suicide, digging back through his online accounts was absolutely chilling. All the signs were there and nobody took them seriously.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 8:10 PM on June 17 [20 favorites]
One thing I’d like to add: unless you are far enough away or safe, I would *not* recommend filing a report with the police to take away his guns. I mostly have seen this in a domestic violence context, but in that context it is one of the actions that both provides your name on the report *and* tends to induce incoherent rage and violence on the part of these guys. The police also tend not to act fast enough and these guys often have a “emergency” gun stashed.
posted by corb at 8:42 PM on June 17 [19 favorites]
posted by corb at 8:42 PM on June 17 [19 favorites]
In my country if someone owns a gun and threatens you with the use of that gun then the gun gets taken away and they aren’t allowed to own a gun. The end.
posted by furtive at 9:30 PM on June 17 [3 favorites]
posted by furtive at 9:30 PM on June 17 [3 favorites]
If your parents are still living and don’t handle conflict well, you will need to think carefully about how to handle them too, because even if you cut off contact they may offer him a back door path to reach you
I was going to say this, and not only if your parents don't handle conflict well. Do you and your brother normally see each other at family events? What happens if your parents need care and both you and your brother are involved? What happens if there's a funeral or anything like that?
These are not reasons to not cut off contact with your brother (it definitely sounds like you should cut off contact with him). They're things to think about in terms of planning for eventualities, figuring out who you need to tell that you're cutting off contact, and so on.
Also: take screenshots of the text messages, back them up, etc.
posted by trig at 11:02 PM on June 17 [2 favorites]
I was going to say this, and not only if your parents don't handle conflict well. Do you and your brother normally see each other at family events? What happens if your parents need care and both you and your brother are involved? What happens if there's a funeral or anything like that?
These are not reasons to not cut off contact with your brother (it definitely sounds like you should cut off contact with him). They're things to think about in terms of planning for eventualities, figuring out who you need to tell that you're cutting off contact, and so on.
Also: take screenshots of the text messages, back them up, etc.
posted by trig at 11:02 PM on June 17 [2 favorites]
Mod note: From the OP:
Thanks for all the responses, I had a followup question which might seem a little unusual but is related to some details I left out for the sake of anonymity: It sounds like the consensus is that this is very serious and could trigger red flag laws etc., but in other scenarios if it was a different kind of weapon, would it make it less severe? For example, if he had a baseball bat collection that he specifically uses for bashing things to let off anger/steam, and threatened to kill someone (over text) with a bat, or a knife collection and threatened to stab someone, or a rope collection and threatened to strangle someone etc.posted by taz (staff) at 11:07 PM on June 17 [1 favorite]
Also to answer some of the comments that asked about family, my family has the whole upstanding citizens, totally wholesome, couldn’t harm a fly appearance down to a pat. My brother especially to the point where if I brought any of this up to them or others, people would think I was insane.
The mode of the threat may impact law enforcement’s reaction. However, it is still very much not okay that your brother threatened to kill you. Please take appropriate measures to keep yourself safe.
posted by oceano at 11:40 PM on June 17
posted by oceano at 11:40 PM on June 17
It's the "this is making me angry, you're not allowed to make me angry, I'm entitled to punish you physically for it" that's dangerous and insane, not the specific manner of issuing that punishment.
If you don't think your family will support you in this, then you'll need to work that into your planning about how to stay away from him.
posted by trig at 11:58 PM on June 17 [9 favorites]
If you don't think your family will support you in this, then you'll need to work that into your planning about how to stay away from him.
posted by trig at 11:58 PM on June 17 [9 favorites]
but in other scenarios if it was a different kind of weapon, would it make it less severe
No.
There might be some practical differences in how you go about dealing with this, as a person can't do quite as much damage, on impulse, with a bat or a knife as they can with a gun.
But the advice of "this is very serious, he is a danger to you and others, remove him from your life and warn others" still stands.
posted by Zumbador at 12:35 AM on June 18 [6 favorites]
No.
There might be some practical differences in how you go about dealing with this, as a person can't do quite as much damage, on impulse, with a bat or a knife as they can with a gun.
But the advice of "this is very serious, he is a danger to you and others, remove him from your life and warn others" still stands.
posted by Zumbador at 12:35 AM on June 18 [6 favorites]
My brother especially to the point where if I brought any of this up to them or others, people would think I was insane.
Even more reason to document this and maintain the evidence and stay away from the lot of them.
posted by koahiatamadl at 12:49 AM on June 18 [13 favorites]
Even more reason to document this and maintain the evidence and stay away from the lot of them.
posted by koahiatamadl at 12:49 AM on June 18 [13 favorites]
In am a gun owner and a baseball bat owner. It is not okay under any circumstances.
I personally would simply go no contact. I would not initiate any communication nor respond to anything but an apology. Not an explanation, an apology. Then I would accept it and still not be proactive in maintaining a relationship.
I think it is sort of a good thing he opening expressed the threat. At least now you know what he is capable of and can take some action to avoid him. If he had said nothing and one day showed up angry with ill intent, you would not be prepared for at least the possibility of him going off.
Good luck.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 12:51 AM on June 18 [3 favorites]
I personally would simply go no contact. I would not initiate any communication nor respond to anything but an apology. Not an explanation, an apology. Then I would accept it and still not be proactive in maintaining a relationship.
I think it is sort of a good thing he opening expressed the threat. At least now you know what he is capable of and can take some action to avoid him. If he had said nothing and one day showed up angry with ill intent, you would not be prepared for at least the possibility of him going off.
Good luck.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 12:51 AM on June 18 [3 favorites]
There is a big, big difference between smashing things in a rage (something I have done - when I was dealing with some stuff I bought plates at garage sales and smashed them in my backyard) and texting a sibling threats of violence. Especially as a response to an argument.
Beating someone with a bat or smashing plates over their head is not really all that different than threatening them with a crossbow or a gun. It might be harder to follow through, which is why projectile weapons are especially dangerous. But the disordered, controlling, violent threat remains the same. And it sounds from here like your brother is indulging himself in a pattern of escalating rage. More importantly, just read through what you wrote again. He wanted you to do something you didn’t want to do, and when you said no, he indulged in a violent at best fantasy, or statement of intent, or direct threat.
That your family goes to lengths to be wholesome and your brother has decided that he no longer has to maintain that facade with you (or he no longer can) actually makes me more concerned, not less.
You don’t need other people to agree with you about your brother or your family. You don’t need the rest of your family to believe you. There’s no judge and jury on this but you. I’ll give you an example…my eldest son had a neighbourhood friend starting around 4 years old. Totally normal family, PTA volunteer, etc. I got a really bad feeling about the dad. My husband did too. I never let him go over to their house. No drama, it just never happened. As a parent, it’s my job to keep my kid safe. There’s no resolution here; the dad has never been shown to be a bad guy. But my kid’s 18, his friend went away to school, we’re all good, who knows. It’s okay to make decisions like that. With family yes, in the future there will be holidays etc. to navigate. But you can still make decisions not to allow threats in your life.
I do think even more strongly that you ideally need support in untangling this (I think your word ‘dysfunction’ is doing a lot of heavy lifting here.) You also don’t need to decide you’re cutting contact permanently today, or make a fuss, just cut it for safety for now.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:33 AM on June 18 [8 favorites]
Beating someone with a bat or smashing plates over their head is not really all that different than threatening them with a crossbow or a gun. It might be harder to follow through, which is why projectile weapons are especially dangerous. But the disordered, controlling, violent threat remains the same. And it sounds from here like your brother is indulging himself in a pattern of escalating rage. More importantly, just read through what you wrote again. He wanted you to do something you didn’t want to do, and when you said no, he indulged in a violent at best fantasy, or statement of intent, or direct threat.
That your family goes to lengths to be wholesome and your brother has decided that he no longer has to maintain that facade with you (or he no longer can) actually makes me more concerned, not less.
You don’t need other people to agree with you about your brother or your family. You don’t need the rest of your family to believe you. There’s no judge and jury on this but you. I’ll give you an example…my eldest son had a neighbourhood friend starting around 4 years old. Totally normal family, PTA volunteer, etc. I got a really bad feeling about the dad. My husband did too. I never let him go over to their house. No drama, it just never happened. As a parent, it’s my job to keep my kid safe. There’s no resolution here; the dad has never been shown to be a bad guy. But my kid’s 18, his friend went away to school, we’re all good, who knows. It’s okay to make decisions like that. With family yes, in the future there will be holidays etc. to navigate. But you can still make decisions not to allow threats in your life.
I do think even more strongly that you ideally need support in untangling this (I think your word ‘dysfunction’ is doing a lot of heavy lifting here.) You also don’t need to decide you’re cutting contact permanently today, or make a fuss, just cut it for safety for now.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:33 AM on June 18 [8 favorites]
If this person wasn't your brother, would you still be in touch with them? I doubt it. You would never talk to them again.
You're not beholden to him because you share parents and anyone who tells you that you are and that nothing is more important than family has no idea what they're talking about.
One of the best things I ever did was break off contact with a sibling. And they weren't threatening to kill me. I haven't spoken to her in 16 years and it's wonderful to never again have to put up with her bullshit.
posted by dobbs at 4:03 AM on June 18 [4 favorites]
You're not beholden to him because you share parents and anyone who tells you that you are and that nothing is more important than family has no idea what they're talking about.
One of the best things I ever did was break off contact with a sibling. And they weren't threatening to kill me. I haven't spoken to her in 16 years and it's wonderful to never again have to put up with her bullshit.
posted by dobbs at 4:03 AM on June 18 [4 favorites]
It wouldn't make the reduce the severity of the threat itself or it's importance. It would slightly reduce the chance that he would be able to seriously kill or injure someone simply because he has to get a lot closer to them if his weapon is a baseball bat and so they have more time to escape.
posted by plonkee at 4:25 AM on June 18 [1 favorite]
posted by plonkee at 4:25 AM on June 18 [1 favorite]
That your family goes to lengths to be wholesome and your brother has decided that he no longer has to maintain that facade with you (or he no longer can) actually makes me more concerned, not less.
I think that’s similar to what I meant above in prodding OP to think through how they want to approach their parents too. This kind of family may apply a lot of pressure to OP to make things nice and easy for them. If OP moves without giving Brother the new address, say, there has to be a plan for keeping the parents from passing it on. I think warriorqueen’s gentle, don’t-disturb-the-bees approach with the neighbor family worked because often your hand won’t be forced with a casual acquaintance, but it might be here. Family is different not because you owe it to them to make nice (no) but because face saving lies and evasions are often harder.
posted by eirias at 5:56 AM on June 18 [11 favorites]
I think that’s similar to what I meant above in prodding OP to think through how they want to approach their parents too. This kind of family may apply a lot of pressure to OP to make things nice and easy for them. If OP moves without giving Brother the new address, say, there has to be a plan for keeping the parents from passing it on. I think warriorqueen’s gentle, don’t-disturb-the-bees approach with the neighbor family worked because often your hand won’t be forced with a casual acquaintance, but it might be here. Family is different not because you owe it to them to make nice (no) but because face saving lies and evasions are often harder.
posted by eirias at 5:56 AM on June 18 [11 favorites]
A death threat is a death threat. He could threaten to stab you to death with a chopstick, and if he was serious it would still be actionable in most states.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:29 AM on June 18 [2 favorites]
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:29 AM on June 18 [2 favorites]
but in other scenarios if it was a different kind of weapon, would it make it less severe
So I think the way that you evaluate this is based on variance from norms, because “not hurting your sibling” is an important norm you don’t want him to deviate from. Is it normal in his culture to have a baseball bat collection, or samurai sword collection? If so, how do other baseball bat owners or samurai sword owners behave?
I do think the risk goes down if it’s not a gun collection because of the specific ways unhealthy gun owners are known to escalate, but that risk doesn’t go away entirely. Some other things I would use to gauge risk: has he threatened anyone else before? Has he physically harmed or beaten anyone before? Does he have a history of flying into violent rages when thwarted?
posted by corb at 7:42 AM on June 18 [4 favorites]
So I think the way that you evaluate this is based on variance from norms, because “not hurting your sibling” is an important norm you don’t want him to deviate from. Is it normal in his culture to have a baseball bat collection, or samurai sword collection? If so, how do other baseball bat owners or samurai sword owners behave?
I do think the risk goes down if it’s not a gun collection because of the specific ways unhealthy gun owners are known to escalate, but that risk doesn’t go away entirely. Some other things I would use to gauge risk: has he threatened anyone else before? Has he physically harmed or beaten anyone before? Does he have a history of flying into violent rages when thwarted?
posted by corb at 7:42 AM on June 18 [4 favorites]
People do get killed by machetes or swords or whatever, they're just not the weapon of choice in the US because guns are so common. A person with a sword intent on harm is very dangerous, countries without guns have mass-stabbings instead of mass shootings, and people die. They also have people killed in one-on-one, interpersonal stabbings. In the UK, standard police gear are "stab vests" instead of bulletproof vests, because the deadly threat they're far more likely to face are knives.
The only slight mitigation is that someone armed with a gun has a good chance of stopping someone armed with a sword or a knife, but if you don't have a gun, that's not much reassurance. Someone actually intent on harm with an edged weapon is really bad news.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:52 AM on June 18 [1 favorite]
The only slight mitigation is that someone armed with a gun has a good chance of stopping someone armed with a sword or a knife, but if you don't have a gun, that's not much reassurance. Someone actually intent on harm with an edged weapon is really bad news.
posted by BungaDunga at 8:52 AM on June 18 [1 favorite]
Any threat to kill someone needs to be taken super seriously.
A gun is the most serious threat because he can do it from a few hundred feet away, and it only takes a second - meaning he could kill someone before they're even aware he's close to them. Other ranged weapons like crossbows fall into this category too.
But any item can be used for a murder, so all threats matter. Intent to kill is the thing to be scared of, not the method. LOTS of people die from being stabbed, beaten, bludgeoned, or stangled. Or hit with a vehicle! Or an axe! Or a brick! Or their home set on fire! Or just hit & kicked dozens of times! Or whatever other vicious shit this asshole can dream up!
With some weapons, it's slightly less likely that he'd be able to actually kill his victim since he'd have to get closer and perhaps strike them multiple times, meaning the person might have a small amount of time to attempt to fight back, run away, or attract help.
But remember, it's not like an attack has only two outcomes of either "dead" or "totally fine". Even if a smaller weapon, or a less-efficient method of attack doesn't KILL a victim outright, they can still inflict very severe or lifechanging injuries.
Takeaway: it is absolutely possible to kill someone with pretty much any kind of object. So the threat is equally severe no matter what the weapon. If someone wants to kill someone, they can.
If someone expresses the intent to kill someone, for pete's sake take them seriously.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 9:44 AM on June 18 [4 favorites]
A gun is the most serious threat because he can do it from a few hundred feet away, and it only takes a second - meaning he could kill someone before they're even aware he's close to them. Other ranged weapons like crossbows fall into this category too.
But any item can be used for a murder, so all threats matter. Intent to kill is the thing to be scared of, not the method. LOTS of people die from being stabbed, beaten, bludgeoned, or stangled. Or hit with a vehicle! Or an axe! Or a brick! Or their home set on fire! Or just hit & kicked dozens of times! Or whatever other vicious shit this asshole can dream up!
With some weapons, it's slightly less likely that he'd be able to actually kill his victim since he'd have to get closer and perhaps strike them multiple times, meaning the person might have a small amount of time to attempt to fight back, run away, or attract help.
But remember, it's not like an attack has only two outcomes of either "dead" or "totally fine". Even if a smaller weapon, or a less-efficient method of attack doesn't KILL a victim outright, they can still inflict very severe or lifechanging injuries.
Takeaway: it is absolutely possible to kill someone with pretty much any kind of object. So the threat is equally severe no matter what the weapon. If someone wants to kill someone, they can.
If someone expresses the intent to kill someone, for pete's sake take them seriously.
posted by nouvelle-personne at 9:44 AM on June 18 [4 favorites]
I am a peer counselor on crisis text line. The standard we are told to use to determine whether a person is a threat to themselves or to others is:
- Desire to hurt oneself or others
- Means to hurt oneself or others
- A plan to hurt oneself or others
This last one is badly worded. A "plan" doesn't mean a 21-point master plan with blueprints or whatever. It can also mean, someone KNOWS how (and they have told you they know how, even if they haven't described the how to you), and/or they have SAID OUT LOUD exactly how, they would hurt themself or others.
Your brother told you exactly how he was going to hurt you. He was going to shoot you, if you were near him. That's a plan. He has the desire, the means, and the plan. If your brother had told me what he wants to do to you via Crisis Text Line, I would have been obligated to report him to the police or else risk going to jail myself.
You want to know what if it wasn't a gun, what if it was a baseball bat or a kitchen knife. I am here to tell you that doesn't make a difference. The only thing impacted by a change in weapon - switching guns to baseball bats - is the ability of law enforcement agents to restrict his access to his weapon. Like, the police can't possibly stop anyone from buying steak knives just because they are dangerous, you know?
But aside from that, nothing else changes. This is still a mandatory report. Your brother still has desire, means, and a plan to hurt you. I would still risk going to jail if I did not report this guy.
As far as you are concerned, you are not a mandated reporter, but that doesn't mean you *can't* report it. I highly, highly, highly recommend that you do report him, even if nothing comes of it right now. Create that paper trail. Someday he may threaten someone else, and maybe they too will report him, adding to this paper trail. You may be helping his spouse or his children a couple of years down the line, making it more likely that they are believed, making it more likely that the police will take THEM more seriously because your complaint is already on the record.
posted by MiraK at 10:16 AM on June 18 [24 favorites]
- Desire to hurt oneself or others
- Means to hurt oneself or others
- A plan to hurt oneself or others
This last one is badly worded. A "plan" doesn't mean a 21-point master plan with blueprints or whatever. It can also mean, someone KNOWS how (and they have told you they know how, even if they haven't described the how to you), and/or they have SAID OUT LOUD exactly how, they would hurt themself or others.
Your brother told you exactly how he was going to hurt you. He was going to shoot you, if you were near him. That's a plan. He has the desire, the means, and the plan. If your brother had told me what he wants to do to you via Crisis Text Line, I would have been obligated to report him to the police or else risk going to jail myself.
You want to know what if it wasn't a gun, what if it was a baseball bat or a kitchen knife. I am here to tell you that doesn't make a difference. The only thing impacted by a change in weapon - switching guns to baseball bats - is the ability of law enforcement agents to restrict his access to his weapon. Like, the police can't possibly stop anyone from buying steak knives just because they are dangerous, you know?
But aside from that, nothing else changes. This is still a mandatory report. Your brother still has desire, means, and a plan to hurt you. I would still risk going to jail if I did not report this guy.
As far as you are concerned, you are not a mandated reporter, but that doesn't mean you *can't* report it. I highly, highly, highly recommend that you do report him, even if nothing comes of it right now. Create that paper trail. Someday he may threaten someone else, and maybe they too will report him, adding to this paper trail. You may be helping his spouse or his children a couple of years down the line, making it more likely that they are believed, making it more likely that the police will take THEM more seriously because your complaint is already on the record.
posted by MiraK at 10:16 AM on June 18 [24 favorites]
I had a followup question which might seem a little unusual but is related to some details I left out for the sake of anonymity: It sounds like the consensus is that this is very serious and could trigger red flag laws etc., but in other scenarios if it was a different kind of weapon, would it make it less severe? For example, if he had a baseball bat collection that he specifically uses for bashing things to let off anger/steam
So what I'm seeing here is that your brother is into some very specific type of non-firearm weaponry. Maybe your brother is into rope dart or kama or staff or traditional european swords, and you see this collection as something he uses specifically to let of steam.
I've known a lot of people who are interested in martial arts weapons of various sorts, from the level of feeling like they are cool to look at to making practicing learning weapons a major part of their life. But there is a big difference between enjoying collecting or learning such things and using them to express angry feelings.
Someone who outright states that the reason they collect weaponry is to express angry feelings, I would not feel comfortable at all around that person.
As far as being a red flag for danger to you, no it does not make any difference what sort of weapon it is, the danger is the anger not the specific weapon. His level of anger is a danger to you whether or not he has access to that one specific weapon. If someone attacks you with a piece of pipe because they didn't have a staff you will still be in a very bad situation.
As far as a red flag legally, laws are different everywhere so who knows.
posted by yohko at 12:59 PM on June 27
So what I'm seeing here is that your brother is into some very specific type of non-firearm weaponry. Maybe your brother is into rope dart or kama or staff or traditional european swords, and you see this collection as something he uses specifically to let of steam.
I've known a lot of people who are interested in martial arts weapons of various sorts, from the level of feeling like they are cool to look at to making practicing learning weapons a major part of their life. But there is a big difference between enjoying collecting or learning such things and using them to express angry feelings.
Someone who outright states that the reason they collect weaponry is to express angry feelings, I would not feel comfortable at all around that person.
As far as being a red flag for danger to you, no it does not make any difference what sort of weapon it is, the danger is the anger not the specific weapon. His level of anger is a danger to you whether or not he has access to that one specific weapon. If someone attacks you with a piece of pipe because they didn't have a staff you will still be in a very bad situation.
As far as a red flag legally, laws are different everywhere so who knows.
posted by yohko at 12:59 PM on June 27
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posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:10 PM on June 17 [78 favorites]