Should we name our son Camille?
May 20, 2024 10:31 PM Subscribe
My partner (French) and I (American) are choosing a name for our son and we both like the name Camille -- we would mostly call him Cam. He will likely spend much of his formative years in a liberal, east coast American city. Basically we have two questions: 1) If you're from the US, to what extent does "Camille" read as gendered to you? (if you're not really familiar with the name, that's helpful to know too) 2) Are we signing him up for a world of bullying still in 2024?
In France Camille is gender neutral; in the US it is almost exclusively female. We don't want him to hate us.
In France Camille is gender neutral; in the US it is almost exclusively female. We don't want him to hate us.
Totally gendered female in the US
posted by Windopaene at 10:48 PM on May 20 [90 favorites]
posted by Windopaene at 10:48 PM on May 20 [90 favorites]
My default assumption (problematic as it may be) is that Camille is a female name.
What about having Camille as a middle name?
FWIW I would assume Cam is short for Cameron.
posted by oceano at 10:49 PM on May 20 [28 favorites]
What about having Camille as a middle name?
FWIW I would assume Cam is short for Cameron.
posted by oceano at 10:49 PM on May 20 [28 favorites]
My immediate reaction is “female”
posted by tristeza at 10:51 PM on May 20 [3 favorites]
posted by tristeza at 10:51 PM on May 20 [3 favorites]
Spelling it Kamil à la manière polonaise might tilt the gender thing; but trip other issues down the line.
posted by BobTheScientist at 10:54 PM on May 20 [9 favorites]
posted by BobTheScientist at 10:54 PM on May 20 [9 favorites]
Oddly, even though every specific historical Camille I can think of was a man, my first instinct would still be that it's clearly a women's name.
posted by kickingtheground at 11:00 PM on May 20 [11 favorites]
posted by kickingtheground at 11:00 PM on May 20 [11 favorites]
My first association is Camille Desmoulins, so I would definitely read it as male. In fact that's pretty much the only famous Camille I know. But I'm neither a kid nor American.
posted by sohalt at 11:00 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
posted by sohalt at 11:00 PM on May 20 [1 favorite]
Not directly related to the question, but my name is very much like Camille in this situation - a very clearly a female sounding name (at least in the US) even though I am male. Everyone has a different personality and way of growing up, but it never seemed like a huge deal to me. Sure I got teased some, but who doesn't. I kinda like have a unique and special name. Again everyone is different and I'm sure someone else in my situation might absolutely hate it.
posted by Mr. Papagiorgio at 11:01 PM on May 20 [7 favorites]
posted by Mr. Papagiorgio at 11:01 PM on May 20 [7 favorites]
Are we signing him up for a world of bullying still in 2024?
Maybe, maybe not. But you're definitely increasing the chances that he will be bullied as kids tend to pick on differences. It doesn't matter what you think kids should do, that's what kids actually do (and a lot of adults, frankly).
No-one can tell you if he'll be alright with the reactions he gets to it except him, and by then it'll be too late for you to change it. How would you feel if he hates it and legally changed his name to something else the day he turns 18?
If you want to call him Cam, just name him Cam.
posted by underclocked at 11:13 PM on May 20 [4 favorites]
Maybe, maybe not. But you're definitely increasing the chances that he will be bullied as kids tend to pick on differences. It doesn't matter what you think kids should do, that's what kids actually do (and a lot of adults, frankly).
No-one can tell you if he'll be alright with the reactions he gets to it except him, and by then it'll be too late for you to change it. How would you feel if he hates it and legally changed his name to something else the day he turns 18?
If you want to call him Cam, just name him Cam.
posted by underclocked at 11:13 PM on May 20 [4 favorites]
Camille reads as a female name that is currently trending. It is one of those names that many more girls are being given now than they were ten years ago.
So in a way it doesn't matter what the name was gendered traditionally, right now there are going to be a lot of baby girls named Camille in any U.S. child's world.
It's kind of like how names such as Leslie and Ashley went from being gender neutral to being female. If you were Leslie Howard playing Ashley Wilkes in 1939, no one would blink an eye. If you were a boy named Leslie in 1975, or a boy named Ashley in 1990, it would have been -- even for a kid who had the confidence to handle difference -- definitely a constant possibility for commentary in the schoolyard.
posted by Tim Bucktooth at 11:18 PM on May 20 [7 favorites]
So in a way it doesn't matter what the name was gendered traditionally, right now there are going to be a lot of baby girls named Camille in any U.S. child's world.
It's kind of like how names such as Leslie and Ashley went from being gender neutral to being female. If you were Leslie Howard playing Ashley Wilkes in 1939, no one would blink an eye. If you were a boy named Leslie in 1975, or a boy named Ashley in 1990, it would have been -- even for a kid who had the confidence to handle difference -- definitely a constant possibility for commentary in the schoolyard.
posted by Tim Bucktooth at 11:18 PM on May 20 [7 favorites]
My instincts say that if you name a boy Camille the poor kid will get his ass kicked on the regular.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 11:33 PM on May 20 [19 favorites]
posted by Ursula Hitler at 11:33 PM on May 20 [19 favorites]
Camille is a female name to me here in New York. We named our third child an unusual name. He turned out to be a big strong willed kid. Kids sort of backed off picking on him, but some of his teachers asked some 'unusual' questions about his name. It was adults more than kids.
Naming a boy Camille sort of reminds me of A Boy Named Sue by Johnny Cash
posted by JohnnyGunn at 11:36 PM on May 20 [7 favorites]
Naming a boy Camille sort of reminds me of A Boy Named Sue by Johnny Cash
posted by JohnnyGunn at 11:36 PM on May 20 [7 favorites]
Codes very feminine
posted by tovarisch at 12:01 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
posted by tovarisch at 12:01 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
You can search on this chart the use of Camille for boys and girls in the US. It’s always been used far more for girls, even when it was sometimes used for boys.
In the US, this is a girl’s name. You’re going to make your son’s life just a little bit harder if you choose this name.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:43 AM on May 21 [7 favorites]
In the US, this is a girl’s name. You’re going to make your son’s life just a little bit harder if you choose this name.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:43 AM on May 21 [7 favorites]
I’m a giant nerd so my primary association is Camille from Gundam, who is a boy, but I do feel like it’s a contemporary girl’s name, kind of like how Ashley used to be a boy’s name and is now usually a girl’s name in the US. So the more I think about it the more I feel like Camille is gender neutral to me. I think it’s a great name, by the way. But also I’m a middle aged queerio and every kid I know has about ten friends with grandma and grandpa names that make me chuckle every birthday party.
I think that as long as you don’t balk if he decides to go by a nickname or distance himself from the name in another way if it’s causing him grief, you should name him whatever is meaningful to you and leave the worrying about bullying to the hypothetical future. Kids are gonna be mean if they want to be mean. My mother has an unusual name and she fought tooth and nail to name her kids extremely boring average things (I am Sarah and I didn’t have a class without another Sarah in it until university). But I and my brother (with a super common three letter English name) were both bullied for all kinds of other things that were easy pickings. Kid culture has changed pretty significantly and I think it would have been addressed very differently today than it was 35(ish) years ago, but evidently mean kids and shitty grownups still exist. You are in the right position to help your kid with that if it happens though, so focus on creating a home and family environment where he can come to you with difficult problems and knows you have his back. Since you intend to mostly call him a nickname anyway, it sounds like you won’t be tying his identity to his name particularly much. Respect him if he wants to go by something else and his legal name will rarely be relevant.
posted by Mizu at 12:59 AM on May 21 [3 favorites]
I think that as long as you don’t balk if he decides to go by a nickname or distance himself from the name in another way if it’s causing him grief, you should name him whatever is meaningful to you and leave the worrying about bullying to the hypothetical future. Kids are gonna be mean if they want to be mean. My mother has an unusual name and she fought tooth and nail to name her kids extremely boring average things (I am Sarah and I didn’t have a class without another Sarah in it until university). But I and my brother (with a super common three letter English name) were both bullied for all kinds of other things that were easy pickings. Kid culture has changed pretty significantly and I think it would have been addressed very differently today than it was 35(ish) years ago, but evidently mean kids and shitty grownups still exist. You are in the right position to help your kid with that if it happens though, so focus on creating a home and family environment where he can come to you with difficult problems and knows you have his back. Since you intend to mostly call him a nickname anyway, it sounds like you won’t be tying his identity to his name particularly much. Respect him if he wants to go by something else and his legal name will rarely be relevant.
posted by Mizu at 12:59 AM on May 21 [3 favorites]
Canadian here and absolutely female. My brain immediately goes to Camille Paglia.
I have a name not associated with another gender to mine but to another race and can tell you your kid'll be picked on for sure. Kids are cruel.
posted by dobbs at 1:18 AM on May 21 [2 favorites]
I have a name not associated with another gender to mine but to another race and can tell you your kid'll be picked on for sure. Kids are cruel.
posted by dobbs at 1:18 AM on May 21 [2 favorites]
How about spelling it with one 'l'? That seems more ambiguous to me.
posted by amtho at 1:21 AM on May 21 [2 favorites]
posted by amtho at 1:21 AM on May 21 [2 favorites]
Please don't do this to your son. You can just name him Cam! Or you can name him something else entirely and call him Cam; my sister's name is Amanda and she's been Frankie her whole life.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:10 AM on May 21 [3 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 2:10 AM on May 21 [3 favorites]
For info, an article (French) from Le Monde on the situation in France.
They call it a "prénom mixte instable", citing a 5%/95% M/F split in 2001, 35%/65% in 2018.
For me, Anglo-born, French-naturalised / resident for nearly 20 years, my brain still jumps straight to female and has only had the "oh, yeah, that's one that can be both" moment on the very few occasions I've met or heard of a male Camille.
posted by protorp at 2:41 AM on May 21 [3 favorites]
They call it a "prénom mixte instable", citing a 5%/95% M/F split in 2001, 35%/65% in 2018.
For me, Anglo-born, French-naturalised / resident for nearly 20 years, my brain still jumps straight to female and has only had the "oh, yeah, that's one that can be both" moment on the very few occasions I've met or heard of a male Camille.
posted by protorp at 2:41 AM on May 21 [3 favorites]
I mean, do the names Ashley, Whitney, or Lindsey code femme to you? Because I grew up in the deep south, bastion of gender normativity, and those are totally uncontested men's names. Even when those men are outside of their area of regional significance, it's still fine. When people make fun of Lindsey Graham, it's because he's a feckless sycophant, not because of his name.
How about Kelly or Shannon? I know plenty of men with those names, too, and they have all got along just fine.
Name your kid a name that suits them. If you meet your baby and he's a Camille, go with Camille. It's a perfectly fine name. Names can always be worse. The rest will work out.
posted by phunniemee at 3:45 AM on May 21 [13 favorites]
How about Kelly or Shannon? I know plenty of men with those names, too, and they have all got along just fine.
Name your kid a name that suits them. If you meet your baby and he's a Camille, go with Camille. It's a perfectly fine name. Names can always be worse. The rest will work out.
posted by phunniemee at 3:45 AM on May 21 [13 favorites]
It reads as 100% gendered female to me. I’m charmed to learn it’s not in France, but here I think your kid is going to run into some issues, perhaps all really minor, perhaps not.
posted by Stacey at 3:53 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
posted by Stacey at 3:53 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
I will be the only one to say it reads as Male. The only Camill3bi have known was man when I was living in the U.S. He was from Quebec.
Now Cam reads as female to me because Cam Jansen.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 4:00 AM on May 21
Now Cam reads as female to me because Cam Jansen.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 4:00 AM on May 21
Also, I'm a Jennifer born in the 80s. There is nothing about my name to latch onto to mock. I can assure you very much that if your kid is singled out for bullying by their peers, no perfect name will prevent it. They'll find something else.
In some ways it might have been nicer if kids had made fun of my name, since that would have at least been something I could change.
posted by phunniemee at 4:00 AM on May 21 [9 favorites]
In some ways it might have been nicer if kids had made fun of my name, since that would have at least been something I could change.
posted by phunniemee at 4:00 AM on May 21 [9 favorites]
I'm in a liberal city in the Midwest and know an adult woman who's Camille and this still wouldn't surprise me for a boy. If my kid came home talking about a he/him Camille I would mildly expect him to be black and Kamil, but if he's not, finding out he had a French parent would clarify things completely.
Now, I will say: my young child's chosen name gets interpreted in a way that doesn't match their gender identity. They attend a small liberal school where that isn't an issue the way you're asking about and the teachers/staff would actually help if it were. Out in public around here, they encounter surprise and various "microaggressions" but rarely overt bullying over the name. I mention this because based on what I've seen, I'd guess a significant number of adults where we live (including potentially myself) would think a boy Camille was/could be trans and just rolling with his birth name in confident expectation of acceptance. Locally I'd generally expect those people to be supportive of this story they'd made up: if I were traveling with a young Camille I'd watch out for people imagining that story and having a different, perhaps hostile reaction.
posted by teremala at 4:18 AM on May 21 [2 favorites]
Now, I will say: my young child's chosen name gets interpreted in a way that doesn't match their gender identity. They attend a small liberal school where that isn't an issue the way you're asking about and the teachers/staff would actually help if it were. Out in public around here, they encounter surprise and various "microaggressions" but rarely overt bullying over the name. I mention this because based on what I've seen, I'd guess a significant number of adults where we live (including potentially myself) would think a boy Camille was/could be trans and just rolling with his birth name in confident expectation of acceptance. Locally I'd generally expect those people to be supportive of this story they'd made up: if I were traveling with a young Camille I'd watch out for people imagining that story and having a different, perhaps hostile reaction.
posted by teremala at 4:18 AM on May 21 [2 favorites]
Nthing that my experience with Camille, in a region of Canada where French and English people live, is exclusively women.
I also wonder if you plan on mostly calling your child Cam - why not name them Cam? If there's a meaningful reason why you've chosen this name the story will still resonate even if it's a derivation of the name.
posted by openhearted at 4:31 AM on May 21
I also wonder if you plan on mostly calling your child Cam - why not name them Cam? If there's a meaningful reason why you've chosen this name the story will still resonate even if it's a derivation of the name.
posted by openhearted at 4:31 AM on May 21
The only Camille I'm familiar with is Camille Saint-Sains, who was and is kind of a big deal musically.
Look, name your kid Camille if you want. Their peers will torment them anyway, it's just what kids do, and trying for torment based on a gendered name misconception in the gender-free-for-all 2020s and 2030s is kind of a laugh anyway.
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:31 AM on May 21 [4 favorites]
Look, name your kid Camille if you want. Their peers will torment them anyway, it's just what kids do, and trying for torment based on a gendered name misconception in the gender-free-for-all 2020s and 2030s is kind of a laugh anyway.
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:31 AM on May 21 [4 favorites]
Born and raised in rural Connecticut, currently live in New York; mostly Anglo/Irish ancestry with a hint of Acadienne from a grandmother. Camille reads as a feminine name to me.
As for bullying - there's no guarantee that the name is going to trigger bullying. A family we knew when I was growing up had a penchant for giving their kids quirky names - Krishna was their oldest girl (and my childhood bestie), Theoden was their son (and yep, that was after the King of Rohan). Youngest sister got off comparatively easy with Guinnevere. I knew all three kids for my entire school career - kindergarten through high school, and through college in Krishna's case - and at no time do I remember any of them getting shit for their names. They maybe got some double-takes at first because the names were comparatively unusual back in the 70s and 80s; my very first memory of Krishna was of the two of us on a seesaw, and Krishna giggling as I confusedly kept asking her, "wait, WHAT'S your name?" But they all had this matter-of-fact attitude that "yeah, whatever, that's my name" and it kind of kept kids from giving them shit for it.
And, I mean, I got bullied even though I had a comparatively gender-appropriate and "normal" name - it was just for different reasons.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:33 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
As for bullying - there's no guarantee that the name is going to trigger bullying. A family we knew when I was growing up had a penchant for giving their kids quirky names - Krishna was their oldest girl (and my childhood bestie), Theoden was their son (and yep, that was after the King of Rohan). Youngest sister got off comparatively easy with Guinnevere. I knew all three kids for my entire school career - kindergarten through high school, and through college in Krishna's case - and at no time do I remember any of them getting shit for their names. They maybe got some double-takes at first because the names were comparatively unusual back in the 70s and 80s; my very first memory of Krishna was of the two of us on a seesaw, and Krishna giggling as I confusedly kept asking her, "wait, WHAT'S your name?" But they all had this matter-of-fact attitude that "yeah, whatever, that's my name" and it kind of kept kids from giving them shit for it.
And, I mean, I got bullied even though I had a comparatively gender-appropriate and "normal" name - it was just for different reasons.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:33 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
Speaking as a Canadian where Camille reads feminine-leaning, I’m not sure I’d worry about bullying so much as mild confusion later professionally where email can be a first contact a lot of the time, and your child might end up correcting people. But in a global world where names are pretty fluid, I honestly am not sure it’s a big deal any more. It’ll depend on their temperament if it’s an issue.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:00 AM on May 21
posted by warriorqueen at 5:00 AM on May 21
Camille to me, living in a liberal east coast suburb, is 100% coded female. I know Camilles of many ages, all girls ages 5-17 and women over 65.
Unless your kid is the bully, they're going to run into being bullied and picked on no matter what their name but why make it worse by purposefully creating an 'A Boy Named Sue' situation?
posted by kimberussell at 5:02 AM on May 21 [3 favorites]
Unless your kid is the bully, they're going to run into being bullied and picked on no matter what their name but why make it worse by purposefully creating an 'A Boy Named Sue' situation?
posted by kimberussell at 5:02 AM on May 21 [3 favorites]
French Canadian here, there were a lot of men named Camille in generations past (my grandfather and great-grandfathers’ generation), and I’ve seen a few people name their sons Camille in honour of a deceased relative. Most Camilles are girls, but, for what it’s worth, if you lived in Montreal a boy named Camille wouldn’t raise an eyebrow.
posted by third word on a random page at 5:05 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
posted by third word on a random page at 5:05 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
I'll suggest that you not let playground bullies who are not even born yet dictate your child's name. Camille is a great name for a boy.
posted by tavegyl at 5:08 AM on May 21 [10 favorites]
posted by tavegyl at 5:08 AM on May 21 [10 favorites]
Definitely reads female to me, as a resident of a liberal, east-coast American city (though as others are saying, a large percentage of the famous Camilles I think of are Frenchmen).
I grew up with an opposite-gender-coded name (see username); it wasn't terrible, even in the 80s and 90s, although it has been and continues to be occasionally inconvenient, e.g. when my university somehow got the idea that I was male and therefore required to register for selective service even though I'd been living on women's halls in dorms for like three years at that point. As an adult I periodically have awkward encounters where I initially interact with someone over text-based media (email, Slack, job application, etc.) and then when the first in-person/Zoom meeting happens there's a weird moment of dissonance, but I think this is getting better now that it's more common to put your pronouns in your email signature, etc.
Actually I don't recall ever being made fun of for my name as a kid (and I was not a popular kid! I got made fun of for lots of things!). One time a substitute teacher didn't believe me that I was Kyle, much to the delight of my classmates, who staunchly vouched for me (what's more fun than proving a teacher wrong?). That said, gender-coded names are kind of like gender-coded clothes - people get less worked-up when girls/women to wear boys'/mens' clothes than vice versa.
posted by mskyle at 5:12 AM on May 21
I grew up with an opposite-gender-coded name (see username); it wasn't terrible, even in the 80s and 90s, although it has been and continues to be occasionally inconvenient, e.g. when my university somehow got the idea that I was male and therefore required to register for selective service even though I'd been living on women's halls in dorms for like three years at that point. As an adult I periodically have awkward encounters where I initially interact with someone over text-based media (email, Slack, job application, etc.) and then when the first in-person/Zoom meeting happens there's a weird moment of dissonance, but I think this is getting better now that it's more common to put your pronouns in your email signature, etc.
Actually I don't recall ever being made fun of for my name as a kid (and I was not a popular kid! I got made fun of for lots of things!). One time a substitute teacher didn't believe me that I was Kyle, much to the delight of my classmates, who staunchly vouched for me (what's more fun than proving a teacher wrong?). That said, gender-coded names are kind of like gender-coded clothes - people get less worked-up when girls/women to wear boys'/mens' clothes than vice versa.
posted by mskyle at 5:12 AM on May 21
US midatlantic resident. If I saw the name Camille without any context, I would assume feminine.
If that will bother you, you should pick something else. If it won't bother you, who cares? You can't predict whether it will bother your kiddo, and I encourage you to try to not get too invested in your kid's nickname, since there's even odds they'll eventually choose to go by something else. (Obviously what you name your kid is important to you, but the length of time you actually get to control what your kid is called is short in the overall span of your relationship with them.)
posted by the primroses were over at 5:24 AM on May 21 [3 favorites]
If that will bother you, you should pick something else. If it won't bother you, who cares? You can't predict whether it will bother your kiddo, and I encourage you to try to not get too invested in your kid's nickname, since there's even odds they'll eventually choose to go by something else. (Obviously what you name your kid is important to you, but the length of time you actually get to control what your kid is called is short in the overall span of your relationship with them.)
posted by the primroses were over at 5:24 AM on May 21 [3 favorites]
I'm American, and I see the name as feminine.
I grew up with a name that has a few different traditional spellings. Two versions are traditionally male; my version is traditionally female. But apparently, few people knew that. Although that was not the reason that I was bullied, for much of my life, I would get mail addressed to Mr. Mylastname, and so on. So, when I was about 30, I started going by my middle name. When I was about 60, I formally got rid of my original first name.
posted by NotLost at 5:39 AM on May 21
I grew up with a name that has a few different traditional spellings. Two versions are traditionally male; my version is traditionally female. But apparently, few people knew that. Although that was not the reason that I was bullied, for much of my life, I would get mail addressed to Mr. Mylastname, and so on. So, when I was about 30, I started going by my middle name. When I was about 60, I formally got rid of my original first name.
posted by NotLost at 5:39 AM on May 21
I'm in the US and would assume someone named Camille was female until learning otherwise. And even if they looked male I might still be unsure. Tomboy? Trans woman? I think whether or not your kid gets bullied has more to do with their personality and how good they are at getting along with other kids. But I personally think I would find it annoying to have a name that caused 99% of people to initially assume I was the wrong gender or to have lingering uncertainty about my gender.
posted by Redstart at 5:41 AM on May 21 [3 favorites]
posted by Redstart at 5:41 AM on May 21 [3 favorites]
I should clarify, that I am female, many people thought I had a masculine name, and I was bothered by it whenever it came up, enough to eventually stop using that name. For whatever it matters, my name had no diminutive versions; there was no other version of my name to call me.
posted by NotLost at 5:48 AM on May 21
posted by NotLost at 5:48 AM on May 21
Anecdotal, but my ex-wife was given a name that is genderal-neutral in France but strongly male-gendered in the US, and it was used at every opportunity to taunt and bully her as a kid, and that was in NYC in a community with other French-speaking parents. It isn't the world we want, but it's the one we live in.
posted by ExpertWitness at 6:14 AM on May 21 [4 favorites]
posted by ExpertWitness at 6:14 AM on May 21 [4 favorites]
I'm an American in NY and it reads female to me. I concur with the comment above that it seems like it is having a revival as a girls name as well - I know three Camilles in Brooklyn under the age of 8.
posted by Caz721 at 6:17 AM on May 21 [2 favorites]
posted by Caz721 at 6:17 AM on May 21 [2 favorites]
My wife's grandfather, who was French Canadian, was named Camille, and I grew up in a city in Maine with a large Francophone community where Camille was not at all uncommon as a man's name for people of my parents' generation and older, but today I would totally expect Camille to be female.
posted by briank at 6:21 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
posted by briank at 6:21 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
Bilingual (French/English) Canadian living in London and I've never heard of a male Camille.
What about Camilo?
posted by Chausette at 6:32 AM on May 21 [4 favorites]
What about Camilo?
posted by Chausette at 6:32 AM on May 21 [4 favorites]
It tracks female to me, but Cam tracks male. I think whether bullying will be an issue is dependent on the area of the country you live in. Where I live, with a strong anti-bullying, pro-trans-rights curriculum in the public schools, this would not be an issue at all. Where you live? I don't know - Americans are kind of jerks. Even in liberal communities. And based on this thread, it seems like most people agree.
posted by Toddles at 6:33 AM on May 21
posted by Toddles at 6:33 AM on May 21
Slight side note: when I was a child, I have memories of my parents worrying about my grandparents, who then lived on the Gulf Coast, and who were in the predicted path of Hurricane Camille. The storm turned in the night, and hit the Mississippi coast instead as one of the worst hurricanes in U.S. history. A year or two later, I remember my parents driving down U.S. 90 in that area, where there were large empty, grassy lots with nothing left of the previous buildings but the concrete front steps leading up to where houses used to be.
Anyway, that by itself would steer me away from the name. Younger people or people without connections to the region might not be as affected.
(This was long enough ago that all storm names were female, they started alternating male and female in the alphabet a few years later.)
posted by gimonca at 6:33 AM on May 21
Anyway, that by itself would steer me away from the name. Younger people or people without connections to the region might not be as affected.
(This was long enough ago that all storm names were female, they started alternating male and female in the alphabet a few years later.)
posted by gimonca at 6:33 AM on May 21
If that will bother you, you should pick something else.
Came here to say something similar - I'd first consider how you'll feel if adults are judgmental towards you about the name. I have friends who named their son a name that sounds feminine in English, but is a well-established male name in Spanish. They quickly got so annoyed at having to correct people's pronunciation and/or respond to their confusion that they've changed how they introduce their baby to people.
But if you won't mind just introducing him as "Cam" or don't mind having to repeatedly explain the name, then go for it.
posted by coffeecat at 6:45 AM on May 21
Came here to say something similar - I'd first consider how you'll feel if adults are judgmental towards you about the name. I have friends who named their son a name that sounds feminine in English, but is a well-established male name in Spanish. They quickly got so annoyed at having to correct people's pronunciation and/or respond to their confusion that they've changed how they introduce their baby to people.
But if you won't mind just introducing him as "Cam" or don't mind having to repeatedly explain the name, then go for it.
posted by coffeecat at 6:45 AM on May 21
Camille reads as female to me.
A really confident, cool kid might be able to pull it off, but you obviously can't know that about him for a few years.
He might not get bullied because of his name, but it's low-hanging fruit for kids to latch onto and it will make him hate it. I knew a male Carroll who was much-disliked for legit reasons and the people who didn't like him immediately took to mocking his name.
Even when someone is generally liked, having the "wrong" gendered name will affect some people's perception. I never could stop being slightly put off by my ex-husband's friend Kim because my brain got stuck on his having a girl name. I'm older now and like many people I'm much less rigid about gendered stuff these days. But there are many who are very not enlightened, and some who think they are but will immediately go to gendered insults when angered.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 7:08 AM on May 21
A really confident, cool kid might be able to pull it off, but you obviously can't know that about him for a few years.
He might not get bullied because of his name, but it's low-hanging fruit for kids to latch onto and it will make him hate it. I knew a male Carroll who was much-disliked for legit reasons and the people who didn't like him immediately took to mocking his name.
Even when someone is generally liked, having the "wrong" gendered name will affect some people's perception. I never could stop being slightly put off by my ex-husband's friend Kim because my brain got stuck on his having a girl name. I'm older now and like many people I'm much less rigid about gendered stuff these days. But there are many who are very not enlightened, and some who think they are but will immediately go to gendered insults when angered.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 7:08 AM on May 21
To veer slightly off from your question, I can give you the perspective of someone who has lived a version of this - I'm a man named Camille who grew up in relatively liberal, multicultural, anglophone cities (but in the 80s/90s).
My parents had the same plan of using 'Cam' as an everyday name, but somewhere between the ages of 5 and 10 I got wise to the idea that it was a cover to protect other people's sensibilities, called bullshit, and insisted on using my full name from that point on, although some extended family members took a few decades to catch up. Also in my country 'Cam' reads a bit like 'Chet' does in America, which is very not my vibe.
Will kids be jerks? Yes and no. In the younger years of school I was the subject of persistent low-key name-calling ('camel'), but it wasn't that big a deal. Other kids got it worse for more 'normal' names that rhymed with more offensive stuff. Once my cohort hit puberty things got more intense re the gender policing aspect, and I became the subject of homophobic slurs, and sometimes violence. That wasn't all because of the name, I was a bit of an outsider in other ways, but it was a contributing factor.
Misgendering also became a thing for a while in my teens. I don't think that was always malicious, some kids do just read as androgynous for a while, and I was probably one of them. The name did help skew people's perceptions though. Taking the long view, as a cis gendered white dude I think living a bit of arbitrary othering at a formative age probably did me some good.
As an adult, some people think my name's cool, most people are a little weird about it at first but quickly get used to it. As noted above, there are some hassles meeting people IRL I've encountered first via email/online, no matter how much I put pronouns everywhere, but I often get a little laugh out of it. Heck, sometimes it's advantageous to have the other person that little bit off balance depending on the context. Interesting side-effect: random run ins with people of non-English speaking backgrounds (French but also other European, North African, and Middle Eastern cultures) are often delightfully chill in that my name is just normal to them.
In my opinion, if you like the name and you think it suits your kid once they're born, go for it. They'll decide what it means to them in the long run, just like any other name. I've gone through periods of liking it, hating it, and being neutral about it. I wouldn't change it.
posted by threecheesetrees at 7:30 AM on May 21 [29 favorites]
My parents had the same plan of using 'Cam' as an everyday name, but somewhere between the ages of 5 and 10 I got wise to the idea that it was a cover to protect other people's sensibilities, called bullshit, and insisted on using my full name from that point on, although some extended family members took a few decades to catch up. Also in my country 'Cam' reads a bit like 'Chet' does in America, which is very not my vibe.
Will kids be jerks? Yes and no. In the younger years of school I was the subject of persistent low-key name-calling ('camel'), but it wasn't that big a deal. Other kids got it worse for more 'normal' names that rhymed with more offensive stuff. Once my cohort hit puberty things got more intense re the gender policing aspect, and I became the subject of homophobic slurs, and sometimes violence. That wasn't all because of the name, I was a bit of an outsider in other ways, but it was a contributing factor.
Misgendering also became a thing for a while in my teens. I don't think that was always malicious, some kids do just read as androgynous for a while, and I was probably one of them. The name did help skew people's perceptions though. Taking the long view, as a cis gendered white dude I think living a bit of arbitrary othering at a formative age probably did me some good.
As an adult, some people think my name's cool, most people are a little weird about it at first but quickly get used to it. As noted above, there are some hassles meeting people IRL I've encountered first via email/online, no matter how much I put pronouns everywhere, but I often get a little laugh out of it. Heck, sometimes it's advantageous to have the other person that little bit off balance depending on the context. Interesting side-effect: random run ins with people of non-English speaking backgrounds (French but also other European, North African, and Middle Eastern cultures) are often delightfully chill in that my name is just normal to them.
In my opinion, if you like the name and you think it suits your kid once they're born, go for it. They'll decide what it means to them in the long run, just like any other name. I've gone through periods of liking it, hating it, and being neutral about it. I wouldn't change it.
posted by threecheesetrees at 7:30 AM on May 21 [29 favorites]
To me it is almost unambiguously female. I don't think the comparison to names like Shannon and Lindsey is apt; those names seem mostly female but a bit more gender neutral than Camille. I think it's more like naming your kid Samantha and calling them Sam.
That said, if your kid turns out to be naturally popular, athletic, etc, then it probably won't be a problem at all. If that's not the case though, it could add to the pain.
posted by scorpion proof at 7:34 AM on May 21 [3 favorites]
That said, if your kid turns out to be naturally popular, athletic, etc, then it probably won't be a problem at all. If that's not the case though, it could add to the pain.
posted by scorpion proof at 7:34 AM on May 21 [3 favorites]
It doesn't read as a gendered name to me, but that's probably because I don't know anyone named Camille. I really like the name.
I was mercilessly picked on as a kid, and people did make fun of my name, but that was the least of my worries. Different people have different countenances and this may or may not be hard for your kid. I would caution anyone against prioritizing the imagined behavior of strangers in the future when making a decision like this.
posted by twelve cent archie at 7:53 AM on May 21
I was mercilessly picked on as a kid, and people did make fun of my name, but that was the least of my worries. Different people have different countenances and this may or may not be hard for your kid. I would caution anyone against prioritizing the imagined behavior of strangers in the future when making a decision like this.
posted by twelve cent archie at 7:53 AM on May 21
Just curious: if you were to go with Camille, what pronunciation would you use?
posted by mpark at 8:16 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
posted by mpark at 8:16 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
Veers strongly toward female here in Idaho. I would think liberal east coast would be more open, especially with Cam as the use name. Or just plain Cam. Cameron? Camden?
The one female Camille I know was teased as camel in school. Nephew Cameron, called Cam, the same, but milder. (Kids!)
posted by BlueHorse at 8:38 AM on May 21
The one female Camille I know was teased as camel in school. Nephew Cameron, called Cam, the same, but milder. (Kids!)
posted by BlueHorse at 8:38 AM on May 21
I'm from California. I've known multiple female Camilles and zero male. I have a close friend named Cameron and we call him Cam.
posted by potrzebie at 8:47 AM on May 21
posted by potrzebie at 8:47 AM on May 21
Camille reads as a feminine name to me (I'm Canadian), and I wouldn't give it to a boy.
If you really love the name, one option might be to change the spelling to Kamil/Kam, which reads as masculine to me.
posted by orange swan at 9:01 AM on May 21
If you really love the name, one option might be to change the spelling to Kamil/Kam, which reads as masculine to me.
posted by orange swan at 9:01 AM on May 21
I'm Canadian and speak French. I was also surprised to hear this could be gender neutral. I would just name the child Cam.
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 9:11 AM on May 21
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 9:11 AM on May 21
I know both male and female Camilles, reads neutral, but if male, French.
posted by papergirl at 9:18 AM on May 21
posted by papergirl at 9:18 AM on May 21
I immediately associate Camille with the Alexandre Dumas novel about his affair with a courtesan. So definitely feminine.
What about Cameron and call him Cam for short?
posted by tafetta, darling! at 9:25 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
What about Cameron and call him Cam for short?
posted by tafetta, darling! at 9:25 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
It’s a cool name and I think obsessing over what some 9 year olds are going to do is weird. Being teased for your name is probably one of the less bad things to get teased over. Folks here sound like they’re stuck in 1982.
All the victims of childhood bullying I know were teased for much worse, and I’m not sure fixating on making your kid unbullyable is healthy for anyone. As a liberal coastal elite, I am surrounded by so many unfamiliar names I wouldn’t bat an eye.
posted by stoneandstar at 9:36 AM on May 21 [6 favorites]
All the victims of childhood bullying I know were teased for much worse, and I’m not sure fixating on making your kid unbullyable is healthy for anyone. As a liberal coastal elite, I am surrounded by so many unfamiliar names I wouldn’t bat an eye.
posted by stoneandstar at 9:36 AM on May 21 [6 favorites]
What about Cameron and call him Cam for short?
This is my baby girl cousin's given name and nickname.
posted by phunniemee at 9:46 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
This is my baby girl cousin's given name and nickname.
posted by phunniemee at 9:46 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
Another Canadian who works in French and Camille here is a feminine name.
I think the other consideration is that the kid will have their name constantly mispronounced because in the US it's often Ca-meel and in French it's Ca-mee. As someone with a couple of easily mispronounced names, it's annoying to live with that and if you pair it with constant misgendering, it's going to be an annoying name for them to grow up with.
posted by urbanlenny at 9:47 AM on May 21 [3 favorites]
I think the other consideration is that the kid will have their name constantly mispronounced because in the US it's often Ca-meel and in French it's Ca-mee. As someone with a couple of easily mispronounced names, it's annoying to live with that and if you pair it with constant misgendering, it's going to be an annoying name for them to grow up with.
posted by urbanlenny at 9:47 AM on May 21 [3 favorites]
Anglo Quebecer here. I think of Camille Laurin, who was a man. There's also the option of spelling it Camil, as is sometimes done here.
But in the anglo world, it definitely rings as feminine, especially with the "-ille" ending.
posted by zadcat at 9:51 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
But in the anglo world, it definitely rings as feminine, especially with the "-ille" ending.
posted by zadcat at 9:51 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
What's wrong with literally naming him Cam since that's what you want to call him? I've never understood the full name but we'll never use it thing.
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:58 AM on May 21 [2 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:58 AM on May 21 [2 favorites]
On a sheer statistical level, in the US in 2023, "Camila" was the 13th most popular girl's name, "Camille" was #268, and "Camilla" was #336, according to the SSA. Camille was a little more popular in 2022, when 1293 babies were given the name, which represents 0.072 percent of total female births that year. It's rare enough for boys in the US that the SSA won't give me numbers. (Nameberry says it was given to five boys in 2023, but I have no idea where they got that number. Maybe the SSA has a fuller report somewhere?)
posted by pollytropos at 10:06 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
posted by pollytropos at 10:06 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
How about spelling it with one 'l'? That seems more ambiguous to me.
Doesn't *sound* different.
Your kid might not always live in a sophisticated metropolitan area. I'm older, but I think that's still going to sound like a "girl's name" to a lot of USers.
Suggestion: If you are to any degree considering having more than one child, you could hold off to see if you have a daughter. Are there are other French names you both like that "translate" better across countries?
posted by NorthernLite at 11:24 AM on May 21
Doesn't *sound* different.
Your kid might not always live in a sophisticated metropolitan area. I'm older, but I think that's still going to sound like a "girl's name" to a lot of USers.
Suggestion: If you are to any degree considering having more than one child, you could hold off to see if you have a daughter. Are there are other French names you both like that "translate" better across countries?
posted by NorthernLite at 11:24 AM on May 21
It's worth mentioning that you and your partner will end up being the ones having to convince him that his name is perfectly fine and that he should take pride in it when he comes home upset that someone teased him about it or mispronounced it again. And that will only go so far in his mind because you'll be his parents so of course you think his name is great. In the rest of his life, he will be the one answering questions about his name and figuring out what name he wants to use when he goes to pick up coffee because they always spell it incorrectly. It would be difficult logistics wise.
That said, it's lovely that you want to give him a name that speaks to your partner's French heritage. There are a ton of traditional French names and I know you will find something that fits. Does your liberal east coast city have an AEFE school? That might be another way to deeply connect him to that heritage.
posted by donut_princess at 11:29 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
That said, it's lovely that you want to give him a name that speaks to your partner's French heritage. There are a ton of traditional French names and I know you will find something that fits. Does your liberal east coast city have an AEFE school? That might be another way to deeply connect him to that heritage.
posted by donut_princess at 11:29 AM on May 21 [1 favorite]
It isn’t just a question of childhood bullying…it would be annoying for them to deal with as an adult too. If your kid is going to live in the US, I think they will always be perceived as having a girl’s name.
posted by cakelite at 11:50 AM on May 21 [2 favorites]
posted by cakelite at 11:50 AM on May 21 [2 favorites]
I have a name which is gender ambiguous and I am always assumed male by default. Folks are surprised I’m female, I get mail addressed to a different, male spelling of my name. It has literally never been a problem. Just a data point. (I grew up in the middle of nowhere and it didn’t make it any worse. Plus, unique names are more and more common.)
As a parent, you do not have to convince your child his name is perfectly fine or that he must take pride in it. In fact, you can validate his feelings and state the facts, which is that it is a common male name in his father’s country and kids look for ways to be rude sometimes when something else is bothering them. No need to make it into an issue.
posted by stoneandstar at 11:59 AM on May 21 [3 favorites]
As a parent, you do not have to convince your child his name is perfectly fine or that he must take pride in it. In fact, you can validate his feelings and state the facts, which is that it is a common male name in his father’s country and kids look for ways to be rude sometimes when something else is bothering them. No need to make it into an issue.
posted by stoneandstar at 11:59 AM on May 21 [3 favorites]
As a child growing up in 21st century America, your son will have plenty of character-building challenges in front of him. (Threats to democracy, climate change, geopolitical unrest, social media, bullying, etc.) I would not saddle my child with the extra challenge of having a name that could cause gender confusion, teasing, and so on. If you lived in France, I would go with Camille, but it's absolutely coded as female in America -- regardless of how big/liberal a city you live in -- and there are surely many other French names that could fit! If you are set on Cam, then just name him Cam.
posted by leftover_scrabble_rack at 12:17 PM on May 21 [1 favorite]
posted by leftover_scrabble_rack at 12:17 PM on May 21 [1 favorite]
It's coded femme, but who cares? If we truly believe it's not shameful to be feminine, we can start by normalizing more boys having 'girl names'. I think it's far more important, when defusing future bullies, to set a very strong attitude to other adults that "why does that bother you, sounds like a you problem tbh"
If you intend to raise him bilingual, I think this will make perfect sense to children that other cultures have names that are different, just like most ending-in-A names are coded femme in the US but Nikita for example is often masculine.
posted by nakedmolerats at 12:33 PM on May 21 [7 favorites]
If you intend to raise him bilingual, I think this will make perfect sense to children that other cultures have names that are different, just like most ending-in-A names are coded femme in the US but Nikita for example is often masculine.
posted by nakedmolerats at 12:33 PM on May 21 [7 favorites]
Currently the most famous bearer of a similar name is Camilla, queen consort of the United Kingdom and wife of Charles III.
You can't raise children in a perfect world. But bigotry and bullying are not going to go away.
Camille (Cam, Milo) is a fine middle name.
By the way, I have a nephew named Milo.
posted by TrishaU at 1:13 PM on May 21 [2 favorites]
You can't raise children in a perfect world. But bigotry and bullying are not going to go away.
Camille (Cam, Milo) is a fine middle name.
By the way, I have a nephew named Milo.
posted by TrishaU at 1:13 PM on May 21 [2 favorites]
I understand the human impulse to shield your child from bullying, but to offer a counterpoint: your son may not be cis, or straight. But if he is, having an unusual name may help give him compassion and empathy from childhood that are core parts of positive masculinity.
posted by nakedmolerats at 1:21 PM on May 21 [4 favorites]
posted by nakedmolerats at 1:21 PM on May 21 [4 favorites]
If we truly believe it's not shameful to be feminine, we can start by normalizing more boys having 'girl names'. I think it's far more important, when defusing future bullies, to set a very strong attitude to other adults that "why does that bother you, sounds like a you problem tbh"
That’s an awful lot of duty-now-for-the-future to drop a little kid’s shoulders.
In the US, Camille pretty exclusively genders female. Cameron would work, as it can go both ways (actor Cameron Mitchell, for instance. Also, Ferris Bueller’s best friend.)
posted by Thorzdad at 2:42 PM on May 21
That’s an awful lot of duty-now-for-the-future to drop a little kid’s shoulders.
In the US, Camille pretty exclusively genders female. Cameron would work, as it can go both ways (actor Cameron Mitchell, for instance. Also, Ferris Bueller’s best friend.)
posted by Thorzdad at 2:42 PM on May 21
Female to me, unless your surname is Saint-Saens. And even that wouldn’t stop the inevitable bullying. As a middle name, absolutely yes.
posted by lhauser at 2:48 PM on May 21
posted by lhauser at 2:48 PM on May 21
It's coded femme, but who cares? If we truly believe it's not shameful to be feminine, we can start by normalizing more boys having 'girl names'.
With respect, you're not the one who will have to get their ass kicked every day on the playground. (I speak as a longtime ass-kickee.) I believe that kids should be given names that don't lend themselves quite so easily to constant ass-kickings, and then they can decide what they want to be called later. If they want their name to be a political statement, let them make that statement. I am Ursula freaking Hitler, a big pinko trans sissy with the most ridiculous name you've ever heard, and I wouldn't name my boy-child Camille for anything. It's just slightly better than Sisyphus or Gaylord and it'd be like sending the kid to school with a big KICK ME sign on his back.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 3:02 PM on May 21 [6 favorites]
With respect, you're not the one who will have to get their ass kicked every day on the playground. (I speak as a longtime ass-kickee.) I believe that kids should be given names that don't lend themselves quite so easily to constant ass-kickings, and then they can decide what they want to be called later. If they want their name to be a political statement, let them make that statement. I am Ursula freaking Hitler, a big pinko trans sissy with the most ridiculous name you've ever heard, and I wouldn't name my boy-child Camille for anything. It's just slightly better than Sisyphus or Gaylord and it'd be like sending the kid to school with a big KICK ME sign on his back.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 3:02 PM on May 21 [6 favorites]
I think “Camille” presents both a gender issue and a spelling issue. I would not pick a name that presented both. (What about Camilo? )
posted by kerf at 3:13 PM on May 21
posted by kerf at 3:13 PM on May 21
According to SSA data, in 2023 there were 1,158 girls and 9 boys born named Camille. For girls, that makes it about as common that year as Taylor, Malia, Celeste, Lola and Gia. For boys, that makes it on-par with Doyle, Hannan, Ivor, Jeyko, Nando, Rixon and Venture. (Almost exactly the same in 2022, too.)
posted by Charity Garfein at 3:13 PM on May 21 [1 favorite]
posted by Charity Garfein at 3:13 PM on May 21 [1 favorite]
To me (American living in Britain who speaks French as an acquired language) it reads as a gender-ambiguous, could-be-either name. I know in French it's historically male; the Camille that comes most quickly to mind is Desmoulins, then Saint-Saëns. The heroine of the Dumas novel isn't named Camille, English translators called her that. Dumas named her Marguerite.
The popularity of the novel and the play, which became a star vehicle for actresses, probably accounts for the name's feminine mystique in the Anglosphere.
Back when Desmoulins was named, French people usually had several given names and among them might be saints' names of a different gender from the person. A surprisingly large number of men had Marie as one of their names. Desmoulins was named Lucie Simplice Camille Benoît and went by Camille (derived from Latin Camillus, after either the saint or the Roman leader).
If he's going to grow up in the Anglosphere, I think it's fine to be Camille on birth certificate/passport and Cam or Cami for most practical purposes.
Kids certainly can be cruel, but depending on your milieu, today's kids are much more open-minded about gender norms than our generation were. "It's a boy's name in French, and my Dad is French" would answer most queries, I think.
posted by Pallas Athena at 4:05 PM on May 21 [1 favorite]
The popularity of the novel and the play, which became a star vehicle for actresses, probably accounts for the name's feminine mystique in the Anglosphere.
Back when Desmoulins was named, French people usually had several given names and among them might be saints' names of a different gender from the person. A surprisingly large number of men had Marie as one of their names. Desmoulins was named Lucie Simplice Camille Benoît and went by Camille (derived from Latin Camillus, after either the saint or the Roman leader).
If he's going to grow up in the Anglosphere, I think it's fine to be Camille on birth certificate/passport and Cam or Cami for most practical purposes.
Kids certainly can be cruel, but depending on your milieu, today's kids are much more open-minded about gender norms than our generation were. "It's a boy's name in French, and my Dad is French" would answer most queries, I think.
posted by Pallas Athena at 4:05 PM on May 21 [1 favorite]
I'm from California. I've known multiple female Camilles and zero male. I have a close friend named Cameron and we call him Cam.
Also from California and the one Cam I've known (male) was actually a Cameron.
Camille is unavoidably feminine to me because of that "-lle" ending. And as one who grew up with a funny name I'd guess the first insults he'll encounter, pre-sexual awareness, will be the mispronouncing of his name as "camel" (a nick-name which might possibly stick for years).
posted by Rash at 4:12 PM on May 21
Also from California and the one Cam I've known (male) was actually a Cameron.
Camille is unavoidably feminine to me because of that "-lle" ending. And as one who grew up with a funny name I'd guess the first insults he'll encounter, pre-sexual awareness, will be the mispronouncing of his name as "camel" (a nick-name which might possibly stick for years).
posted by Rash at 4:12 PM on May 21
In NYC here. I would have said it reads female in the past, but have recently taught a male Camille who went by Cami and he was awesome! As far as I'm aware, he did not have any issues with his name at school. If the name suits your child, I say go for it!
posted by wiskunde at 5:22 PM on May 21 [2 favorites]
posted by wiskunde at 5:22 PM on May 21 [2 favorites]
I have only known a female Camille, so that might be my first thought; but I live in the Bay Area and people here are named all sorts of things so a boy named Camille would not surprise me. I think it's a nice sounding name.
You could make Camille his middle name, and let him choose what he prefers when he feels like he wants to be Camille, or when he doesn't.
posted by oneirodynia at 5:46 PM on May 21
You could make Camille his middle name, and let him choose what he prefers when he feels like he wants to be Camille, or when he doesn't.
posted by oneirodynia at 5:46 PM on May 21
I live in the Southwestern US, if I had to, I would guess that Camille would be a feminine name, but I wouldn't be sure and I wouldn't make any assumptions about the person's gender based on the name. It sounds like the sort of family name people get if they are named after someone with a name from long ago, but I certainly would not assume that.
I'm not sure how to pronounce it. If I encountered it where I lived I would guess that the "ll" was pronounced with a "y" sound, because that's a common Spanish pronunciation in my area. Or maybe Cham-eel? Cam-mil-ly? Sha-meal? Sham-ily? Sha-mil-ly?
From looking at other answers it sounds like this is becoming a popular name so I guess I should figure it out. But a lot of people with popular names don't use the so-called standard pronunciation.
I would be relieved if the person said "Call me Cam". But I don't know why you wouldn't just name them what you are planning to call them? I'm not sure what the point is of picking a name that you don't actually want to call them most of the time?
Your kid will probably get bullied for something, even if they have a common name they will get bullied for something else.
posted by yohko at 6:56 PM on May 21
I'm not sure how to pronounce it. If I encountered it where I lived I would guess that the "ll" was pronounced with a "y" sound, because that's a common Spanish pronunciation in my area. Or maybe Cham-eel? Cam-mil-ly? Sha-meal? Sham-ily? Sha-mil-ly?
From looking at other answers it sounds like this is becoming a popular name so I guess I should figure it out. But a lot of people with popular names don't use the so-called standard pronunciation.
I would be relieved if the person said "Call me Cam". But I don't know why you wouldn't just name them what you are planning to call them? I'm not sure what the point is of picking a name that you don't actually want to call them most of the time?
Your kid will probably get bullied for something, even if they have a common name they will get bullied for something else.
posted by yohko at 6:56 PM on May 21
I work with an education program in a liberal East Coast American city. Here are some of the names of middle school students I’ve worked with this year:
Shreyas
Yueyang
Axel
Ganiro
D’Ajay
Ifetayo
Daleyah
Hutu
Pranav
Zevuel
Findlay
Ilia
Zoeta
Mehjabin
Soraya
Graceson
Thanvi
Zander
Fenomarama
Wren
Landon
Garin
Simeon
Nidoto
I could go on adding given names From this student list, but you get the point. “Camille” is not really gonna stand out.
posted by Miko at 8:05 PM on May 21 [8 favorites]
Shreyas
Yueyang
Axel
Ganiro
D’Ajay
Ifetayo
Daleyah
Hutu
Pranav
Zevuel
Findlay
Ilia
Zoeta
Mehjabin
Soraya
Graceson
Thanvi
Zander
Fenomarama
Wren
Landon
Garin
Simeon
Nidoto
I could go on adding given names From this student list, but you get the point. “Camille” is not really gonna stand out.
posted by Miko at 8:05 PM on May 21 [8 favorites]
I have to wonder if everyone talking about guaranteed bullying and daily ass-kicking has any experience with grade school in 2024? As the parent of a 6th grader, educational curriculum and landscape looks very different now than it did when I was in school decades ago. I can’t imagine any kid would blink an eye at Camille. The vast majority of kids have probably never heard it, let alone have gender associations with it, let alone are willing to get abusive about it. It’s not going to stand out at all. Go for it.
posted by JenMarie at 8:18 PM on May 21 [4 favorites]
posted by JenMarie at 8:18 PM on May 21 [4 favorites]
Bullying isn't name based but weakness based.
If you like the name, go with the name. Be the best parents you can, teach your kid they can always come to you with trouble, and it won't matter if someone tries to bully them because you'll have their back with the school and you'll have given them the tools they need to be resilient and thrive.
If the kid doesn't feel it matches them, you can let them change it or go by a nickname or their middle name. Gender affirming care can be for cis people too (and statistically, most is).
Edit: One thought though, if you do decide to go with a different name, one that's easy to say and get spelled correctly easily when heard is a gift that keeps on giving. Did not predict that would be such an issue from changing my name.
posted by Chrysopoeia at 10:44 PM on May 21 [1 favorite]
If you like the name, go with the name. Be the best parents you can, teach your kid they can always come to you with trouble, and it won't matter if someone tries to bully them because you'll have their back with the school and you'll have given them the tools they need to be resilient and thrive.
If the kid doesn't feel it matches them, you can let them change it or go by a nickname or their middle name. Gender affirming care can be for cis people too (and statistically, most is).
Edit: One thought though, if you do decide to go with a different name, one that's easy to say and get spelled correctly easily when heard is a gift that keeps on giving. Did not predict that would be such an issue from changing my name.
posted by Chrysopoeia at 10:44 PM on May 21 [1 favorite]
Irish/British person here, and the first Camille that came to my mind was Saint-Saens, but for a baby born now it would definitely read as female.
I am reinded of a couple I once knew (French husband /Scottish (Glaswegian) wife) who argued a lot about names for their unborn baby - he wanted Jesse it if was a boy and she knew that he would not last ten minutes in Glasgow with a name like that. Fortunately, the baby was a girl, they called her Claire, and everyone was happy, but bilingual names can be a minefield.
posted by Fuchsoid at 12:33 AM on May 22
I am reinded of a couple I once knew (French husband /Scottish (Glaswegian) wife) who argued a lot about names for their unborn baby - he wanted Jesse it if was a boy and she knew that he would not last ten minutes in Glasgow with a name like that. Fortunately, the baby was a girl, they called her Claire, and everyone was happy, but bilingual names can be a minefield.
posted by Fuchsoid at 12:33 AM on May 22
I have a boring, common name, and kids still figured out how to make it sound like a gendered name for merciless bullying. Name your kid whatever you want and spend time investing in their development, self-confidence, and resilience in their formative years.
My daughter is trans and was given an equally boring, common name at her birth. Nevertheless, it became an albatross that she struggled with for years, first taking on a quasi-feminized version of it before, years later, at last adopting a name that she felt suited her. From her experience I learned that there is a natural tendencey for us to worry about the realities that are hard to predict but, in essence, these are very simply not in our control but rather understandable fears.
Camille sounds feminine and wonderful to my ears.
I did not mean to make this into a poem.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 2:18 AM on May 22 [4 favorites]
My daughter is trans and was given an equally boring, common name at her birth. Nevertheless, it became an albatross that she struggled with for years, first taking on a quasi-feminized version of it before, years later, at last adopting a name that she felt suited her. From her experience I learned that there is a natural tendencey for us to worry about the realities that are hard to predict but, in essence, these are very simply not in our control but rather understandable fears.
Camille sounds feminine and wonderful to my ears.
I did not mean to make this into a poem.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 2:18 AM on May 22 [4 favorites]
I'm Canadian, and older, and the name is strongly gendered female to me. I immediately thought of a obscure character from a novel set around 1800 who was male and also what we would probably consider effeminate nowadays. But since no one in the world would know about that obscure novel, I assumed no one but me would realise it even could be a male name. I have encountered the name in contemporary times as a female name. It reads as a French name for women to me, like Marie-Claire or Martine or Desirée.
Two secondary reasons I would think a bit more about Camille as a name: Firstly is that some people would associate him with Queen Camilla, which of course could be a good thing, because you could use her as an example, and point out that the female version of the name ends with an A, or it could be a bad thing, because the tabloids often revile her as the evil woman who stole Diana's man and hounded her to death.
Secondarily his first social experience in his peer group might involve the other kids associating his name with the camel from the list of animal names they will all be learning in kindergarten.
All names have associations, so I wouldn't over think this if you are truly pleased with the name Camille. His name being uncommon will have a lot fewer negative consequences the higher your economic status. If you are comfortably well off it will make him unique and possibly help him to stand out and get ahead. However if you are likely to be struggling and sending him to schools where there is a school to prison pipeline I would avoid names that make him stand out. Boys with names that sound odd in that context are likely to struggle far more than boys who can disappear into their cohort.
posted by Jane the Brown at 7:06 AM on May 22 [2 favorites]
Two secondary reasons I would think a bit more about Camille as a name: Firstly is that some people would associate him with Queen Camilla, which of course could be a good thing, because you could use her as an example, and point out that the female version of the name ends with an A, or it could be a bad thing, because the tabloids often revile her as the evil woman who stole Diana's man and hounded her to death.
Secondarily his first social experience in his peer group might involve the other kids associating his name with the camel from the list of animal names they will all be learning in kindergarten.
All names have associations, so I wouldn't over think this if you are truly pleased with the name Camille. His name being uncommon will have a lot fewer negative consequences the higher your economic status. If you are comfortably well off it will make him unique and possibly help him to stand out and get ahead. However if you are likely to be struggling and sending him to schools where there is a school to prison pipeline I would avoid names that make him stand out. Boys with names that sound odd in that context are likely to struggle far more than boys who can disappear into their cohort.
posted by Jane the Brown at 7:06 AM on May 22 [2 favorites]
There's a revival of flowery feminine names currently for female babies, such as Evelyn, Clemantine, and Fleur. I know someone who just named their baby girl Fleur. I think Camille fits right in with that trend and reads feminine.
I knew a boy in high school named Kim - undoubtedly his parents loved the Rudyard Kipling novel. But although he didn't really hate his name, he did hate it that he always felt he had to explain the reason behind his parents choosing Kim.
posted by citygirl at 8:49 AM on May 22 [2 favorites]
I knew a boy in high school named Kim - undoubtedly his parents loved the Rudyard Kipling novel. But although he didn't really hate his name, he did hate it that he always felt he had to explain the reason behind his parents choosing Kim.
posted by citygirl at 8:49 AM on May 22 [2 favorites]
It’s a fine middle name for a boy, but, since you’re asking, I have to agree with the majority that it’s not a great choice for a first name for a boy.
posted by metonym at 11:26 AM on May 22
posted by metonym at 11:26 AM on May 22
Try Stephan if you want alternative French boy names.
Or Etienne, Mathieu Julien Claude Adrien Roland Benoit (Ben) etc. there are so many!
Would not use Camille for a boy.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 2:26 PM on May 22
Or Etienne, Mathieu Julien Claude Adrien Roland Benoit (Ben) etc. there are so many!
Would not use Camille for a boy.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 2:26 PM on May 22
Benoit? It's a perfectly lovely name, and I don't suppose a lot of young people are going to make the association with ben-wa balls, but I would probably snicker to myself any time I used that name as an adult.
posted by QuakerMel at 5:09 PM on May 27
posted by QuakerMel at 5:09 PM on May 27
I feel like there's something vaguely xenophobic about the argument "that would be weird here so you shouldn't do it." I know Americans have been told America is a melting pot, but even if it ever was, that doesn't mean it has to continue being so. You don't have to melt. You shouldn't be made to feel like you're supposed to melt. It's ok to give your kid a name that people will be unfamiliar with. When they meet your kid they will become familiar with it and they will be the richer for it.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:37 PM on May 27 [3 favorites]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 8:37 PM on May 27 [3 favorites]
Calling bullying “weakness based” is straight up victim blaming. Who defines what is “weakness”?
posted by Miko at 9:24 PM on May 27
posted by Miko at 9:24 PM on May 27
Do a Google image search for Camille and you'll find that there are many, many women and only two men, the French painter Camille Pisarro and Camille Grande, a French researcher for NATO. Pisarro is the first to appear and he's six rows down, while Grande appears once. There are a couple of pictures of Prince in there, because he has an upcoming posthumous album called Camille which he recorded as a feminine alter-ego. Otherwise it's all women, many of them glammed up like they're walking the red carpet. Camille is the name of a perfume (two competing perfumes, actually) a dress company, a women's hair care brand and a Real Housewife. It reads as a supremely femme name in the US, is what I'm saying.
Please, don't saddle your son with a name that practically dares playground bullies to do their worst. If he somehow gets through his childhood without regular ass-kickings then he can look forward to a lifetime of nurses and baristas calling, "Up next... Camel? Camm-ee-yeh?" If there was a Kickstarter campaign to not name this boy Camille, I might pitch in a few bucks.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 12:11 AM on May 28 [1 favorite]
Please, don't saddle your son with a name that practically dares playground bullies to do their worst. If he somehow gets through his childhood without regular ass-kickings then he can look forward to a lifetime of nurses and baristas calling, "Up next... Camel? Camm-ee-yeh?" If there was a Kickstarter campaign to not name this boy Camille, I might pitch in a few bucks.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 12:11 AM on May 28 [1 favorite]
Do an image search for Kamil and you will find that it's ALL male presenting people by and large, and different ones too. The only difference is the spelling; it's often pronounced EXACTLY THE SAME. So I honestly doubt that kids are going to latch on to the spelling and going to bully based on that. Which is purely speculation by the way; the relative certainty some posters are pushing potential beatings make me worry they are projecting pretty hard especially with the multiple comments.
It's a popular boys name in non English speaking places; Camilo is a super famous Columbian singer for example. I would suspect that Spanish speakers and most POC would probably not misgender the name as much.
People baulking at 'Camille' seem to be coming from a white privilege sort of place where the name has been appropriated for women in the west. Take that how you will. Obviously some people feel strongly about gendered names and think that when a name starts to skew feminine it's ruined for boys. Personally if I came across a boy called 'Camille' I would assume it was Kamil or Camil and not think twice of it. If I learned it was 'Camille' I would not care. You could absolutely tell people (teachers, etc) to call the kid Cam on role call etc and they would have no problems. Alternatively spell it without the 'ille' maybe to eliminate some confusion if you're worried about that.
My brother has a foreign name that is coded 'girly' in the west, but not in our home country. He goes by a nickname. He has no issues with either name and never did. Anyone assuming he's female is quickly corrected. He was never bullied over his name; and he grew up in a place where bullying was common.
The only assumption may be in writing, like if they go for a job interview then people reading correspondence may assume they are female but they will be an adult by then and they can presumably decide what to do with their name. Much like 'Renee' people may assume female an then just figure shit out. It's not that hard.
Name your son Camille or don't, but I'm with 'If only I had a penguin...' -- I think rejecting the name because 'it's not done here' reeks of xenophobia and reminds me of the shit my mother got when we immigrated to an English speaking country and the pushback she was given by my kindergarten teachers who told her how they should raise me and what language I should speak at home to better integrate etc.
Fuck those people. They were wrong by the way. I'm so grateful she didn't listen to them.
As for 'baristas and nurses calling him Camel' or whatever-- don't think the pronunciation of 'Camille' is really that hard? LOL. If people's argument is that it's a super common girls name in America (which is pronounced exactly the same for women) then it would be pronounced by baristas and nurses the most common way. Which is really easy. As someone with a non-traditional name baristas and service people constantly say wrong because Americans and Australians seem incapable of saying my name properly, I really don't care when they say my name wrong. Again, he can just tell people to call him 'Cam' on his latte. Like seriously. It's not as life ending as half the people here are making it out to be.
posted by Dimes at 1:51 AM on May 30 [5 favorites]
It's a popular boys name in non English speaking places; Camilo is a super famous Columbian singer for example. I would suspect that Spanish speakers and most POC would probably not misgender the name as much.
People baulking at 'Camille' seem to be coming from a white privilege sort of place where the name has been appropriated for women in the west. Take that how you will. Obviously some people feel strongly about gendered names and think that when a name starts to skew feminine it's ruined for boys. Personally if I came across a boy called 'Camille' I would assume it was Kamil or Camil and not think twice of it. If I learned it was 'Camille' I would not care. You could absolutely tell people (teachers, etc) to call the kid Cam on role call etc and they would have no problems. Alternatively spell it without the 'ille' maybe to eliminate some confusion if you're worried about that.
My brother has a foreign name that is coded 'girly' in the west, but not in our home country. He goes by a nickname. He has no issues with either name and never did. Anyone assuming he's female is quickly corrected. He was never bullied over his name; and he grew up in a place where bullying was common.
The only assumption may be in writing, like if they go for a job interview then people reading correspondence may assume they are female but they will be an adult by then and they can presumably decide what to do with their name. Much like 'Renee' people may assume female an then just figure shit out. It's not that hard.
Name your son Camille or don't, but I'm with 'If only I had a penguin...' -- I think rejecting the name because 'it's not done here' reeks of xenophobia and reminds me of the shit my mother got when we immigrated to an English speaking country and the pushback she was given by my kindergarten teachers who told her how they should raise me and what language I should speak at home to better integrate etc.
Fuck those people. They were wrong by the way. I'm so grateful she didn't listen to them.
As for 'baristas and nurses calling him Camel' or whatever-- don't think the pronunciation of 'Camille' is really that hard? LOL. If people's argument is that it's a super common girls name in America (which is pronounced exactly the same for women) then it would be pronounced by baristas and nurses the most common way. Which is really easy. As someone with a non-traditional name baristas and service people constantly say wrong because Americans and Australians seem incapable of saying my name properly, I really don't care when they say my name wrong. Again, he can just tell people to call him 'Cam' on his latte. Like seriously. It's not as life ending as half the people here are making it out to be.
posted by Dimes at 1:51 AM on May 30 [5 favorites]
I'm from the US. I'd expect that if your son grows up here and lives here as an adult, he's going to have to correct people as to his title/pronouns/gender his entire life. And it can cause not just social, but also administrative headaches. I've seen folks sent the wrong medical referrals, or assigned to the wrong dorm room at college, because someone looked at their name and didn't look at their gender markers, and made an assumption. I wouldn't do it.
posted by decathecting at 2:29 PM on May 31
posted by decathecting at 2:29 PM on May 31
People balking at 'Camille' seem to be coming from a white privilege sort of place where the name has been appropriated for women in the west.
No actually the place I'm coming from is: years of harassment from my peers since the name foisted upon me at birth was easily mocked. Why choose that destiny for your own child?
posted by Rash at 4:02 PM on May 31
No actually the place I'm coming from is: years of harassment from my peers since the name foisted upon me at birth was easily mocked. Why choose that destiny for your own child?
posted by Rash at 4:02 PM on May 31
As for Baristas and restaurant hosts: many people I know who have either very common names or very unusual ones just use a fake name for those situations.
posted by Miko at 4:38 PM on June 1
posted by Miko at 4:38 PM on June 1
As for 'baristas and nurses calling him Camel' or whatever-- don't think the pronunciation of 'Camille' is really that hard?
Agreed. Also my name is 3 letters and I literally spell it out for cashiers and watch as they immediately write down JOAN, JANE, JEN, or JIM (my name starts with "G"). 1) it doesn't stop me from getting my order, meaning it's really not a real problem 2) trying to optimize names for baristas or nurses is not as easy as one thinks, and not really the point, is it? What if one's child grows up to live in another country for any length of time and tries to order a coffee there? As far as medical professionals go, they see all sorts of people and usually have no issues with names after any first encounter.
posted by oneirodynia at 2:56 PM on June 3 [1 favorite]
Agreed. Also my name is 3 letters and I literally spell it out for cashiers and watch as they immediately write down JOAN, JANE, JEN, or JIM (my name starts with "G"). 1) it doesn't stop me from getting my order, meaning it's really not a real problem 2) trying to optimize names for baristas or nurses is not as easy as one thinks, and not really the point, is it? What if one's child grows up to live in another country for any length of time and tries to order a coffee there? As far as medical professionals go, they see all sorts of people and usually have no issues with names after any first encounter.
posted by oneirodynia at 2:56 PM on June 3 [1 favorite]
« Older With expansion screws borrowed from your aunt | Can someone break down the Drake-Kendrick Lamar... Newer »
You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments
posted by ssg at 10:44 PM on May 20 [19 favorites]