How to structure/approach this relationship conversation?
March 18, 2024 11:15 PM Subscribe
My partner has a personality quirk that I find tedious and offputting and it's beginning to damage my feelings for him. I'd like to have a conversation with him about it, but I'm inexperienced with relationship conversations and I don't know how to approach the subject in a tactful manner given that it seems like it could potentially stem from thorny feelings, as well as being perhaps related to his neurodivergence. The gist of it is that he has a constant tendency to brag and try and put himself above others. Some examples below the fold.
Examples:
. We were reading a portion of text at the same time. He scanned it then said, "Are you still reading? You're slow. I'm already finished," and went on to explain to me that he's a fast reader.
. We were at an exhibit the other day and I was observing one of the camouflaging displays for a while. He drifted away, returned, and said "Oh, I didn't realise you hadn't found it yet"
. When he's gaming with others, he'll highlight things he's good at e.g. mention his higher accuracy rate compared to the others every time that screen comes up, or if he's particularly good at a game mechanic he'll talk about how he's much better he is than others are at it and how awed other people have been by his skill
. We were doing related tasks and I said that I was finding mine difficult. He immediately said no, this is easy, but that's probably just because he's good at it. (Of course when he later had to do the task I was doing he couldn't do it and pronounced it a difficult task)
. When I brought up something that was bothering me, he said that he didn't bring little things like this up because it was an ability of his to weigh it against all the hardship he's endured in his life and so he can let the little things go
I don't know if I'm presenting it clearly but during the conversations, the underlying tone is that unlike other people, he has the ability to do [this thing]. These are small examples but it's more that it seems to be a permanent mindset with him so it feels like I can't write it off as single small annoyances.
Relatedly:
. he'll occasionally 'explain' obvious things things to me.
. he'll 'explain' things to me, wrongly. Often this is the most irritating when it's a subject I'd be an expert in and he has no idea about e.g. my culture
I like that he's confident about himself and I think it's good he's taking pride in his achievements, but I don't like that it extends to a constant competition with others. I don't enjoy the feeling of being suddenly dragged into a competitive headspace about things that aren't inherently competitive. It feels exhausting.
He's not this way about everything - he freely admits when he's not good at a particular thing. He doesn't overestimate his own abilities for the most part, just goes overboard about what he's good at.
Things I've ruled out:
. He apparently wasn't put in competition with siblings when younger (he says the only thing they got a bit competitive about was gaming but it didn't take long with any game before he naturally became better than them at it)
. It doesn't appear to be specific to me so it's probably not something about me that's making him feel defensive about himself (hopefully?). I praise him a few times a month about various things and remind him of all his good traits when he's feeling down about himself. I tell him that he's really smart, his work is wasting his potential, that he's an amazing dad, that he's an amazing guy in general, that kind of stuff relatively often.
In case it's relevant, we're both neurodiverse in some way - not really sure about myself but he's AuDHD.
My ideal case scenario is I have an effective chat with him without triggering hurt feelings or defensiveness and he stops doing it, but I don't really know how to go about it or if it's an ok thing to ask of someone. I'd love some ideas on how to go about this conversation, or in general how to think or feel about this behaviour.
Examples:
. We were reading a portion of text at the same time. He scanned it then said, "Are you still reading? You're slow. I'm already finished," and went on to explain to me that he's a fast reader.
. We were at an exhibit the other day and I was observing one of the camouflaging displays for a while. He drifted away, returned, and said "Oh, I didn't realise you hadn't found it yet"
. When he's gaming with others, he'll highlight things he's good at e.g. mention his higher accuracy rate compared to the others every time that screen comes up, or if he's particularly good at a game mechanic he'll talk about how he's much better he is than others are at it and how awed other people have been by his skill
. We were doing related tasks and I said that I was finding mine difficult. He immediately said no, this is easy, but that's probably just because he's good at it. (Of course when he later had to do the task I was doing he couldn't do it and pronounced it a difficult task)
. When I brought up something that was bothering me, he said that he didn't bring little things like this up because it was an ability of his to weigh it against all the hardship he's endured in his life and so he can let the little things go
I don't know if I'm presenting it clearly but during the conversations, the underlying tone is that unlike other people, he has the ability to do [this thing]. These are small examples but it's more that it seems to be a permanent mindset with him so it feels like I can't write it off as single small annoyances.
Relatedly:
. he'll occasionally 'explain' obvious things things to me.
. he'll 'explain' things to me, wrongly. Often this is the most irritating when it's a subject I'd be an expert in and he has no idea about e.g. my culture
I like that he's confident about himself and I think it's good he's taking pride in his achievements, but I don't like that it extends to a constant competition with others. I don't enjoy the feeling of being suddenly dragged into a competitive headspace about things that aren't inherently competitive. It feels exhausting.
He's not this way about everything - he freely admits when he's not good at a particular thing. He doesn't overestimate his own abilities for the most part, just goes overboard about what he's good at.
Things I've ruled out:
. He apparently wasn't put in competition with siblings when younger (he says the only thing they got a bit competitive about was gaming but it didn't take long with any game before he naturally became better than them at it)
. It doesn't appear to be specific to me so it's probably not something about me that's making him feel defensive about himself (hopefully?). I praise him a few times a month about various things and remind him of all his good traits when he's feeling down about himself. I tell him that he's really smart, his work is wasting his potential, that he's an amazing dad, that he's an amazing guy in general, that kind of stuff relatively often.
In case it's relevant, we're both neurodiverse in some way - not really sure about myself but he's AuDHD.
My ideal case scenario is I have an effective chat with him without triggering hurt feelings or defensiveness and he stops doing it, but I don't really know how to go about it or if it's an ok thing to ask of someone. I'd love some ideas on how to go about this conversation, or in general how to think or feel about this behaviour.
You can't pin this on neurodivergence. Perhaps the blunt style of expression. But the overall trend towards this topic of conversation and type of comparison is something that could exist in any person, it just might be more subtly expressed by someone else. It's the same thing, either way. To be overly and undeservedly generous, a kind of defence mechanism shielding a fragile ego. But I wouldn't put up with it.
You can't fix a person yourself, they have to decide to change. If it's this pervasive of a pattern, I wouldn't be super optimistic. But to answer your question, this is a perfectly reasonable thing for you to bring up to him. Protect your own feelings and wellbeing, though. It's possible that conversation could get nasty, with him accusing you unfairly of something or other. If you don't already feel comfortable discussing stuff like this with him, maybe that's a sign of something.
posted by lookoutbelow at 12:24 AM on March 19 [10 favorites]
You can't fix a person yourself, they have to decide to change. If it's this pervasive of a pattern, I wouldn't be super optimistic. But to answer your question, this is a perfectly reasonable thing for you to bring up to him. Protect your own feelings and wellbeing, though. It's possible that conversation could get nasty, with him accusing you unfairly of something or other. If you don't already feel comfortable discussing stuff like this with him, maybe that's a sign of something.
posted by lookoutbelow at 12:24 AM on March 19 [10 favorites]
Whoa, he's not necessarily a horrible person. Horrible to be around for now, maybe.
He's optimizing for the wrong thing. There are things you and most people think about when interacting, things you notice and use to decide whether your current tactics are helpful or not, that he probably does not know about.
Things like:
- Is the other person having a good time?
- Is the other person getting enough space to think and solve problems, enough so that is actually fun?
- Have I chosen an activity that the others in the group enjoy? What do I need to know about them to do that?
- Will the other people in the group feel good about themselves afterward?
- Do the other people feel that I like and approve of them?
- Will this experience lead to the other people feeling confident and happy?
These are complicated and time-consuming to optimize for. He may totally not know how to accomplish the implied goals here, or even know how to measure the result. Which is fine - if he's good at everything, maybe hand him a psychology textbook and a Coursera link to a class on 'how to build confidence in students as a teacher', and see if he can bootstrap his own understanding and skill building.
If he genuinely tries to nudge things to a "yes" for even one of these questions, not only will he not have time to focus on whether he's better at something, he may start to understand how harmful that is.
posted by amtho at 12:41 AM on March 19 [15 favorites]
He's optimizing for the wrong thing. There are things you and most people think about when interacting, things you notice and use to decide whether your current tactics are helpful or not, that he probably does not know about.
Things like:
- Is the other person having a good time?
- Is the other person getting enough space to think and solve problems, enough so that is actually fun?
- Have I chosen an activity that the others in the group enjoy? What do I need to know about them to do that?
- Will the other people in the group feel good about themselves afterward?
- Do the other people feel that I like and approve of them?
- Will this experience lead to the other people feeling confident and happy?
These are complicated and time-consuming to optimize for. He may totally not know how to accomplish the implied goals here, or even know how to measure the result. Which is fine - if he's good at everything, maybe hand him a psychology textbook and a Coursera link to a class on 'how to build confidence in students as a teacher', and see if he can bootstrap his own understanding and skill building.
If he genuinely tries to nudge things to a "yes" for even one of these questions, not only will he not have time to focus on whether he's better at something, he may start to understand how harmful that is.
posted by amtho at 12:41 AM on March 19 [15 favorites]
I’ve known people like this. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen one stop the behavior. I’ve put up with it for love, but it does always wind up poisoning the well.
I think it’s very reasonable to not want to be around this. You can certainly try to have that conversation, but I’m not sure that you can engineer it so his feelings aren’t hurt. The next time he does it, maybe you could try saying something like “I don’t like it when you take conversations in a competitive direction. It makes me feel tired.” And see what happens. All you’ve done there is state your feelings. If he gets defensive — if he doesn’t circle back later to apologize — well, now you know more about what it might be like to live with him.
posted by eirias at 1:00 AM on March 19 [28 favorites]
I think it’s very reasonable to not want to be around this. You can certainly try to have that conversation, but I’m not sure that you can engineer it so his feelings aren’t hurt. The next time he does it, maybe you could try saying something like “I don’t like it when you take conversations in a competitive direction. It makes me feel tired.” And see what happens. All you’ve done there is state your feelings. If he gets defensive — if he doesn’t circle back later to apologize — well, now you know more about what it might be like to live with him.
posted by eirias at 1:00 AM on March 19 [28 favorites]
(I'm Autistic and my husband is Audhd )
It's difficult to tell from this description whether he's an asshole, or just clueless.
Some of the things you mention might be you reading things into his actions and words that might not be there.
For example, , "Are you still reading? You're slow. I'm already finished," and went on to explain to me that he's a fast reader.
Is him stating a fact. Presumably he's saying this because he's proud of being a fast reader, but there's not necessarily a value judgment there. I do this kind of thing a lot, blurting out something about myself that I'm proud of without realising that it must make the other person feel as if I'm putting them down.
The test will is how he responds when you tell him how his words and actions comes across.
I don't think that the fact that he doesn't realise he's upsetting you makes his actions OK.
I would just be careful of how much mind reading you might be doing.
Also, assuming that you are female (apologies if I'm wrong), female neurodivergent people often internalise the "we must be incredibly careful not to upset others, don't ever seem arrogant, don't be too intense" message extra hard.
So when we see another neurodivergent person blithely ignoring the social "rules" that we've been forced to abide by, it can be extra hurtful.
To answer your question more directly, it helps to have difficult relationship conversations when walking together so that you're not forced to look at one another.
Try to approach the conversation in a spirt of gathering information, rather than having a goal in mind that you want to achieve.
For example a conversation might be "do you realise that when you do x, I feel y? " and go from there, trying to truly listen to his responses.
And not "how can I stop you from doing x?"
Does he listen to you? Does he just reflexively deny the validity of your feelings? Does he think that he's the arbiter of what you are allowed to feel?
posted by Zumbador at 1:11 AM on March 19 [35 favorites]
It's difficult to tell from this description whether he's an asshole, or just clueless.
Some of the things you mention might be you reading things into his actions and words that might not be there.
For example, , "Are you still reading? You're slow. I'm already finished," and went on to explain to me that he's a fast reader.
Is him stating a fact. Presumably he's saying this because he's proud of being a fast reader, but there's not necessarily a value judgment there. I do this kind of thing a lot, blurting out something about myself that I'm proud of without realising that it must make the other person feel as if I'm putting them down.
The test will is how he responds when you tell him how his words and actions comes across.
I don't think that the fact that he doesn't realise he's upsetting you makes his actions OK.
I would just be careful of how much mind reading you might be doing.
Also, assuming that you are female (apologies if I'm wrong), female neurodivergent people often internalise the "we must be incredibly careful not to upset others, don't ever seem arrogant, don't be too intense" message extra hard.
So when we see another neurodivergent person blithely ignoring the social "rules" that we've been forced to abide by, it can be extra hurtful.
To answer your question more directly, it helps to have difficult relationship conversations when walking together so that you're not forced to look at one another.
Try to approach the conversation in a spirt of gathering information, rather than having a goal in mind that you want to achieve.
For example a conversation might be "do you realise that when you do x, I feel y? " and go from there, trying to truly listen to his responses.
And not "how can I stop you from doing x?"
Does he listen to you? Does he just reflexively deny the validity of your feelings? Does he think that he's the arbiter of what you are allowed to feel?
posted by Zumbador at 1:11 AM on March 19 [35 favorites]
This is going to be an unpleasant analogy, I'm sorry.
Like training anything, you have to give a feedback he will feel, right in the moment. A calm conversation later doesn't hit the right part of the emotional system, it doesn't get to the same circuits that are being activated in the moment. This is why there's that stereotype of having a rubber band on your wrist to snap to train yourself out of something.
In the moment when he says how much better he is than you, you need to reflect some of that unpleasantness back at him. Maybe you stop what you're doing and say "that was uncalled for." (This is what my grandmother would have done.) Maybe you say, "dude, was the insult really necessary?" and then ride it out while he sputters and tries to explain he's just naturally better and that's not an insult, and then you tell him again "all I'm trying to say is, that was a weird moment for you to get competitive and superior at me." Maybe you let him feel criticized and awkward, just like you felt. At the very least, let him see that YOU feel hurt and awkward and criticized!
How can he learn the effect of his words if you're always hiding them and smoothing it over for him?
posted by Lady Li at 1:18 AM on March 19 [55 favorites]
Like training anything, you have to give a feedback he will feel, right in the moment. A calm conversation later doesn't hit the right part of the emotional system, it doesn't get to the same circuits that are being activated in the moment. This is why there's that stereotype of having a rubber band on your wrist to snap to train yourself out of something.
In the moment when he says how much better he is than you, you need to reflect some of that unpleasantness back at him. Maybe you stop what you're doing and say "that was uncalled for." (This is what my grandmother would have done.) Maybe you say, "dude, was the insult really necessary?" and then ride it out while he sputters and tries to explain he's just naturally better and that's not an insult, and then you tell him again "all I'm trying to say is, that was a weird moment for you to get competitive and superior at me." Maybe you let him feel criticized and awkward, just like you felt. At the very least, let him see that YOU feel hurt and awkward and criticized!
How can he learn the effect of his words if you're always hiding them and smoothing it over for him?
posted by Lady Li at 1:18 AM on March 19 [55 favorites]
I'm not entirely sure your acronym means what I think it might, but your description is sounding to me like he may very well be somewhere on the autistic spectrum with some social cluelessness as to how he's coming across, especially if he's not like this about everything (as in, he doesn't believe he's good at everything, and thus your description would sound like he might be narcissistic).
If that's the case, a tactful conversation that suggests that he may not realize how others might take the way he is stating things, and how it's hurtful, and you would appreciate if he was willing to work with you on it. (A word or phrase cue that could tip him off to "you're doing THAT thing again", without you having to fully explain each time, could work well as a shortcut. IF he's amenable to learning new skills, it could take a little time to become effective, but you'd probably feel the start of it rather quickly.)
If, however, he's not willing to recognize that this is harmful to you or your relationship (he minimizes or invalidates what you say when you try to talk to him about it), or is unwilling to attempt to learn a new skill, then you have more serious problems.
posted by stormyteal at 1:19 AM on March 19 [1 favorite]
If that's the case, a tactful conversation that suggests that he may not realize how others might take the way he is stating things, and how it's hurtful, and you would appreciate if he was willing to work with you on it. (A word or phrase cue that could tip him off to "you're doing THAT thing again", without you having to fully explain each time, could work well as a shortcut. IF he's amenable to learning new skills, it could take a little time to become effective, but you'd probably feel the start of it rather quickly.)
If, however, he's not willing to recognize that this is harmful to you or your relationship (he minimizes or invalidates what you say when you try to talk to him about it), or is unwilling to attempt to learn a new skill, then you have more serious problems.
posted by stormyteal at 1:19 AM on March 19 [1 favorite]
I'm neurodivergent myself, but I think the neurodiverse aspect is a red herring: He may lack the ability to effectively "read" the effect of his behavior on you and others, but the bottom line is that he's not treating you well, and it's not for you to change, it's not for you to accommodate his "quirks", it's for him to care enough about you and others to start acting differently.
Here are my two cents. I hope it won't sound like I'm person-splaining!
You say you like his "confidence", but frankly, he sounds quite insecure: Bragging is not a sign of confidence, it's evidence of the opposite. Someone truly self-confident doesn't have to remind people that he's smart/fast/etc., and they definitely don't need to imply they are smarter/faster than you/your friends. And wanting others to be "awed" by him is what an insecure kid fantasizes about, not what a confident, grown up man worries about. You mention he's a great dad. How can you truly be a great parent when you still need so much constant validation?
It's common for young men to overcompensate insecurities by bragging. It's so common that it's a trope in novels and romcoms: The cocky, arrogant bad-boy who is secretly insecure, etc etc. But at some point, when you grow up you have to be willing to get over it if you want a lasting relationship. Bragging, putting you and others down can make him feel temporarily better/less insecure, but it's become his coping style, his comfort zone .
Another relationship red flag is to belittle what you care about or what bothers you as "little things" that he doesn't worry about. That's very patronizing. Mansplaining things to you when you know more than he does is the other red flag. Those are all signs of emotional immaturity, lack of empathy and manipulativeness. It sounds like more than a simple annoying quirk.
Don't put up with it. You deserve better! And you can stop his behavior without necessarily losing the relationship....as long as he genuinely cares for you more than staying inside his comfort zone.
There probably is no foolproof way to raise the issue, especially as you say you don't have the experience of these kinds of chats, but in the end, what matters is being honest and clear about your needs and your feelings, more than wordsmithing.
Here are a couple of conversation starters. My neurodivergence tends to make me sound blunt, so just adjust the words to your conversational style....
The next time he starts telling you how much smarter/faster/better he is, why not reply something like "Hmm, that's interesting. Why do you think it's important for you that I see how accurate you are/how fast you are/etc?" (insert the aspect he just bragged about). Try to express that you are noticing his behavioural habit, and you are trying to understand where it comes from, how it makes him feel when he's doing it, and what he's hoping for in terms of how it makes you feel about him. Maybe he's been doing it so long that he's not noticing it anymore? Maybe he badly needs validation from you?
Another possible starter: "You just mentioned that, unlike me/unlike other people/unlike Fred/etc, you are really good at XYZ. Why do you need me to know that? Did you think I didn't notice? Do you think I don't think you are good at XYZ?"
If he starts casually putting you down, or belittling your feelings or actions, you might ask: "This is interesting: You are usually so good a noticing things, but you don't seem to be noticing that saying (insert what he just said) implies that my feelings/ability/skills are not as good/valid/etc as yours. Do you really think that is the case (i.e. that I'm not as fast/good/smart/etc as you)? (if he says "yes" there, then ask: "How do you think someone like me should feel if that is what you believe?". If he says "no", then ask "then if you don't truly think I'm not as good as you, why did you want to bring up the issue?")
Your attitude and your intention when having these conversations will matter more than whether you chose the exact right turn of phrase. If you communicate that you are genuinely interested in figuring out what is going on, because you need more out of the relationship and you need him to step up and meet you half-way, and you are no longer willing to tolerate this behavior, then he can either open up or refuse to acknowledge there is an issue.
Either he genuinely cares about you and is willing to step out of his comfort zone and talk with you (in which case, great - your relationship can strengthen), or he'll try to minimize/deflect/ignore or even lash out (in which case he's too insecure and fragile to have a good relationship - with you or anyone else). Better find out now than spend weeks/months hoping he'll change on his own.
It is scary to confront such behavior that makes you feel icky. But life is short. You deserve a partner who makes you feel good, not someone who belittles your feelings and makes you do all the work in the relationship, because they can't let themselves feel vulnerable for a second. His behavior is not OK, no matter where it comes from.
I hope it works out, and I will keep my fingers crossed for you!
posted by Bigbootay. Tay! Tay! Blam! Aargh... at 1:54 AM on March 19 [25 favorites]
Here are my two cents. I hope it won't sound like I'm person-splaining!
You say you like his "confidence", but frankly, he sounds quite insecure: Bragging is not a sign of confidence, it's evidence of the opposite. Someone truly self-confident doesn't have to remind people that he's smart/fast/etc., and they definitely don't need to imply they are smarter/faster than you/your friends. And wanting others to be "awed" by him is what an insecure kid fantasizes about, not what a confident, grown up man worries about. You mention he's a great dad. How can you truly be a great parent when you still need so much constant validation?
It's common for young men to overcompensate insecurities by bragging. It's so common that it's a trope in novels and romcoms: The cocky, arrogant bad-boy who is secretly insecure, etc etc. But at some point, when you grow up you have to be willing to get over it if you want a lasting relationship. Bragging, putting you and others down can make him feel temporarily better/less insecure, but it's become his coping style, his comfort zone .
Another relationship red flag is to belittle what you care about or what bothers you as "little things" that he doesn't worry about. That's very patronizing. Mansplaining things to you when you know more than he does is the other red flag. Those are all signs of emotional immaturity, lack of empathy and manipulativeness. It sounds like more than a simple annoying quirk.
Don't put up with it. You deserve better! And you can stop his behavior without necessarily losing the relationship....as long as he genuinely cares for you more than staying inside his comfort zone.
There probably is no foolproof way to raise the issue, especially as you say you don't have the experience of these kinds of chats, but in the end, what matters is being honest and clear about your needs and your feelings, more than wordsmithing.
Here are a couple of conversation starters. My neurodivergence tends to make me sound blunt, so just adjust the words to your conversational style....
The next time he starts telling you how much smarter/faster/better he is, why not reply something like "Hmm, that's interesting. Why do you think it's important for you that I see how accurate you are/how fast you are/etc?" (insert the aspect he just bragged about). Try to express that you are noticing his behavioural habit, and you are trying to understand where it comes from, how it makes him feel when he's doing it, and what he's hoping for in terms of how it makes you feel about him. Maybe he's been doing it so long that he's not noticing it anymore? Maybe he badly needs validation from you?
Another possible starter: "You just mentioned that, unlike me/unlike other people/unlike Fred/etc, you are really good at XYZ. Why do you need me to know that? Did you think I didn't notice? Do you think I don't think you are good at XYZ?"
If he starts casually putting you down, or belittling your feelings or actions, you might ask: "This is interesting: You are usually so good a noticing things, but you don't seem to be noticing that saying (insert what he just said) implies that my feelings/ability/skills are not as good/valid/etc as yours. Do you really think that is the case (i.e. that I'm not as fast/good/smart/etc as you)? (if he says "yes" there, then ask: "How do you think someone like me should feel if that is what you believe?". If he says "no", then ask "then if you don't truly think I'm not as good as you, why did you want to bring up the issue?")
Your attitude and your intention when having these conversations will matter more than whether you chose the exact right turn of phrase. If you communicate that you are genuinely interested in figuring out what is going on, because you need more out of the relationship and you need him to step up and meet you half-way, and you are no longer willing to tolerate this behavior, then he can either open up or refuse to acknowledge there is an issue.
Either he genuinely cares about you and is willing to step out of his comfort zone and talk with you (in which case, great - your relationship can strengthen), or he'll try to minimize/deflect/ignore or even lash out (in which case he's too insecure and fragile to have a good relationship - with you or anyone else). Better find out now than spend weeks/months hoping he'll change on his own.
It is scary to confront such behavior that makes you feel icky. But life is short. You deserve a partner who makes you feel good, not someone who belittles your feelings and makes you do all the work in the relationship, because they can't let themselves feel vulnerable for a second. His behavior is not OK, no matter where it comes from.
I hope it works out, and I will keep my fingers crossed for you!
posted by Bigbootay. Tay! Tay! Blam! Aargh... at 1:54 AM on March 19 [25 favorites]
I think there are two important steps for you to take here:
1. Don't frame this as a "personality quirk," because that absolves him of responsibility. "Oh that's just his personality."
It's a behavior, and by and large adults are responsible for our own behavior. You don't like it, it makes you uncomfortable and you feel like you have to compete/prove yourself. So you would like him to rein that in.
2. It's not your responsibility to psychoanalyze your partner.
He's an adult and he's responsible for managing his own mental health, and for understanding his own diagnoses, childhood patterns, wiring, etc. It's reasonable for him to want support, but you don't need to over-function on his behalf.
Don't go down that road, please.
I would keep it simple - you're noticing behavior x, it leaves you feeling y, you'd like to discuss changes. If he refuses, gets defensive, goes into "that's just how I am" mode, then you need to decide if this is the right relationship.
If he hears you out but has a hard time, that's human. You can give it time.
If he readily agrees to change his behavior, but doesn't, then be wary. Words and actions not aligning will leave you feeling crazy over time.
Good luck.
posted by champers at 3:28 AM on March 19 [15 favorites]
1. Don't frame this as a "personality quirk," because that absolves him of responsibility. "Oh that's just his personality."
It's a behavior, and by and large adults are responsible for our own behavior. You don't like it, it makes you uncomfortable and you feel like you have to compete/prove yourself. So you would like him to rein that in.
2. It's not your responsibility to psychoanalyze your partner.
He's an adult and he's responsible for managing his own mental health, and for understanding his own diagnoses, childhood patterns, wiring, etc. It's reasonable for him to want support, but you don't need to over-function on his behalf.
Don't go down that road, please.
I would keep it simple - you're noticing behavior x, it leaves you feeling y, you'd like to discuss changes. If he refuses, gets defensive, goes into "that's just how I am" mode, then you need to decide if this is the right relationship.
If he hears you out but has a hard time, that's human. You can give it time.
If he readily agrees to change his behavior, but doesn't, then be wary. Words and actions not aligning will leave you feeling crazy over time.
Good luck.
posted by champers at 3:28 AM on March 19 [15 favorites]
it seems to be a permanent mindset with him
Yeah, it does. And as I'm sure you know, the conventional wisdom is that you can't change people.
The bit about incorrectly 'explaining' your own culture would have probably sent me walking.
To me the question is, do you give him a chance to redeem himself and change his consistently offensive behavior? Or just move on now bc odds are low he can change something like that, even if he wants to, on a time scale that works for you and this relationship. You didn't spend much time talking about anything good about him/the relationship…
posted by SaltySalticid at 4:15 AM on March 19 [2 favorites]
Yeah, it does. And as I'm sure you know, the conventional wisdom is that you can't change people.
The bit about incorrectly 'explaining' your own culture would have probably sent me walking.
To me the question is, do you give him a chance to redeem himself and change his consistently offensive behavior? Or just move on now bc odds are low he can change something like that, even if he wants to, on a time scale that works for you and this relationship. You didn't spend much time talking about anything good about him/the relationship…
posted by SaltySalticid at 4:15 AM on March 19 [2 favorites]
I praise him a few times a month about various things and remind him of all his good traits when he's feeling down about himself. I tell him that he's really smart, his work is wasting his potential, that he's an amazing dad, that he's an amazing guy in general, that kind of stuff relatively often.
Does he ever do this kind of thing for you? It’s clear you have the emotional intelligence to understand that’s something he would appreciate and that no one wants to be told they’re no good at things or hear about how much better the other person is. Presumably you do this both to make him feel loved and appreciated and also because you’ve noticed that this is something he actually seems to be quite insecure about, hence all the bragging. You also need that kind of attention and care from a partner.
How long have you been together? If this is something you’re observing over time and you don’t like the way it makes you feel, you really don’t have to stay in this relationship.
If you do want to bring it up, I would do it in basically the same way you’ve done it here - give some concrete examples, say that it’s a pattern you’re noticing and you want to understand where it comes from but you don’t want to put up with it and you need him to work on it. Explain how it makes you feel when it happens. If he’s receptive and apologetic and seems genuinely surprised and sad to have learned that he’s been making you feel put down (giving the benefit of the doubt due to neurodivergence as an AuDHD person myself) and you’re willing to help him work on it - you could agree a code word or agreed upon statement, such as ‘you’re doing it again’ which you can say and he will immediately stop, notice, apologise and correct the behaviour. Any resistance to any of this though once you’ve explained how he’s making you feel - dump him.
posted by chives at 4:48 AM on March 19 [4 favorites]
Does he ever do this kind of thing for you? It’s clear you have the emotional intelligence to understand that’s something he would appreciate and that no one wants to be told they’re no good at things or hear about how much better the other person is. Presumably you do this both to make him feel loved and appreciated and also because you’ve noticed that this is something he actually seems to be quite insecure about, hence all the bragging. You also need that kind of attention and care from a partner.
How long have you been together? If this is something you’re observing over time and you don’t like the way it makes you feel, you really don’t have to stay in this relationship.
If you do want to bring it up, I would do it in basically the same way you’ve done it here - give some concrete examples, say that it’s a pattern you’re noticing and you want to understand where it comes from but you don’t want to put up with it and you need him to work on it. Explain how it makes you feel when it happens. If he’s receptive and apologetic and seems genuinely surprised and sad to have learned that he’s been making you feel put down (giving the benefit of the doubt due to neurodivergence as an AuDHD person myself) and you’re willing to help him work on it - you could agree a code word or agreed upon statement, such as ‘you’re doing it again’ which you can say and he will immediately stop, notice, apologise and correct the behaviour. Any resistance to any of this though once you’ve explained how he’s making you feel - dump him.
posted by chives at 4:48 AM on March 19 [4 favorites]
Oh and it’s generally a good idea to not bring these things up in the actual moment when you’re feeling annoyed and he’s activated by whatever emotional response makes him do this. I’d suggest picking a time when he’s likely to be paying attention and just saying there’s something that’s been bothering you for a while that you need to discuss with him.
posted by chives at 4:52 AM on March 19
posted by chives at 4:52 AM on March 19
Was he by chance raised in the northeastern US, like Massachusetts? This incessant intellectual braggadocio is inculated into children in that area from the moment they're able to speak. It took me years -- YEARS -- to get over it.
My watch phrase that I use even now to remind me is "it is better for me to be kind than to be smart." The book that finally led me to breaking this habit was How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie.
Anyway, your partner is an asshole (I was an asshole, too), this is absolutely learned behaviour and can be unlearned. But only if he feels extremely motivated to do so. Because it feels good to be smart. If you want him to switch to a mode where it feels good to be kind, you have to make sure "feeling smart" is not a pleasant experience.
You have to extinguish the behaviour. Positive reward for not bragging, negative reward for bragging. Be consistent. And, also, be prepared to end the relationship. He may decide he would rather be the "smartest guy in the room" rather than partnered with you. And that's important information for both of you to have.
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:58 AM on March 19 [16 favorites]
My watch phrase that I use even now to remind me is "it is better for me to be kind than to be smart." The book that finally led me to breaking this habit was How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie.
Anyway, your partner is an asshole (I was an asshole, too), this is absolutely learned behaviour and can be unlearned. But only if he feels extremely motivated to do so. Because it feels good to be smart. If you want him to switch to a mode where it feels good to be kind, you have to make sure "feeling smart" is not a pleasant experience.
You have to extinguish the behaviour. Positive reward for not bragging, negative reward for bragging. Be consistent. And, also, be prepared to end the relationship. He may decide he would rather be the "smartest guy in the room" rather than partnered with you. And that's important information for both of you to have.
posted by seanmpuckett at 4:58 AM on March 19 [16 favorites]
If someone (a therapist or whoever) were to ask your partner to name some positive qualities about you, would he be able to? Or does he believe that he is simply better, more skilled, more competent than you in all regards? I mean, I know people who are very rationally oriented and who will say things like, "That's because my eyesight is better than yours," or "I am better at math than you," thinking that can't be offensive because it's an objective fact. But if pressed they could usually say, "But of course you are a faster runner" or something. If he can't recognize your skills and other qualities, that makes me angry on your behalf.
I tell him that he's really smart, his work is wasting his potential, that he's an amazing dad...
Does he treat his kids the way he treats you? That would be a real concern to me. (Are they your kids too, by the way? Sorry if I missed the answer to that somewhere.)
posted by BibiRose at 5:18 AM on March 19 [13 favorites]
I tell him that he's really smart, his work is wasting his potential, that he's an amazing dad...
Does he treat his kids the way he treats you? That would be a real concern to me. (Are they your kids too, by the way? Sorry if I missed the answer to that somewhere.)
posted by BibiRose at 5:18 AM on March 19 [13 favorites]
The first thing I notice here is that you're spending a lot of time project-managing this. You've ruled out various things, you make sure to praise on a regular schedule, you have a whole analysis and a plan. To me that seems really grim when you're talking about an adult partner rather than a child or a mentee. It's also a lot of work - do you feel that he'd put in this amount of work and consideration for you?
I know you're looking to have a conversation, but I think it's really worth considering whether this relationship is more of a project than a communion of equals. If you're really project-oriented and solution-oriented in the rest of your life, I feel like it can be very easy to let relationships that aren't working well turn into things that you project manage, and while you may get a livable life out of it, it's not really a way to have a romantic relationship between equal adults.
posted by Frowner at 6:16 AM on March 19 [36 favorites]
I know you're looking to have a conversation, but I think it's really worth considering whether this relationship is more of a project than a communion of equals. If you're really project-oriented and solution-oriented in the rest of your life, I feel like it can be very easy to let relationships that aren't working well turn into things that you project manage, and while you may get a livable life out of it, it's not really a way to have a romantic relationship between equal adults.
posted by Frowner at 6:16 AM on March 19 [36 favorites]
Yeah this isn't a little personality quirk, he's mean :(. This kind of thing can just wear you down into little pieces over time. You deserve better.
Source: am neurodivergent, a little competitive, sometimes uncomfortably blunt, but not mean I don't think
posted by capricorn at 6:55 AM on March 19 [8 favorites]
Source: am neurodivergent, a little competitive, sometimes uncomfortably blunt, but not mean I don't think
posted by capricorn at 6:55 AM on March 19 [8 favorites]
Nth'ing that this is a job for Ding therapy, not a heartfelt talk.
You could just Ding him when he does it, but if you happened to be from the sort of culture that won't allow people to be full of themselves, you could say something like:
* "Oh give it a rest."
* "having trouble with that 'easy' task, huh? Maybe keep a civil tongue next time."
* "We get it, you're a fast reader. Have a cookie." (or the classic "You want a medal? Shit don't pin. You want a statue? Shit don't stack.")
* "Nobody cares." Delivered sing-song.
* "I'm so sorry Your Worshipfulness to have lost sight of your obvious superiority."
* "Go make fun of a puppy. I hear they shit on the ground."
* "Boring. Get back to me when you have X-ray vision."
You've got to figure out how much sarcasm you're comfortable with, but he has to feel the ding. even it's just a simple, flat, sarcasm-free "That's a shitty thing to say, Honey Bunny."
posted by whuppy at 7:07 AM on March 19 [3 favorites]
You could just Ding him when he does it, but if you happened to be from the sort of culture that won't allow people to be full of themselves, you could say something like:
* "Oh give it a rest."
* "having trouble with that 'easy' task, huh? Maybe keep a civil tongue next time."
* "We get it, you're a fast reader. Have a cookie." (or the classic "You want a medal? Shit don't pin. You want a statue? Shit don't stack.")
* "Nobody cares." Delivered sing-song.
* "I'm so sorry Your Worshipfulness to have lost sight of your obvious superiority."
* "Go make fun of a puppy. I hear they shit on the ground."
* "Boring. Get back to me when you have X-ray vision."
You've got to figure out how much sarcasm you're comfortable with, but he has to feel the ding. even it's just a simple, flat, sarcasm-free "That's a shitty thing to say, Honey Bunny."
posted by whuppy at 7:07 AM on March 19 [3 favorites]
I tell him that he's really smart, his work is wasting his potential, that he's an amazing dad, that he's an amazing guy in general, that kind of stuff relatively often.
This is just reinforcing the neurotypical value system of social status and thereby encouraging the status-seeking comments. It's estimated that ADHDers receive 20,000 more negative comments by the age of 10 just at school than neurotypical kids -- and wasting their potential is one of the most threatening things you can say to an ADHDer (because they have likely heard it thousands of times before... and have no answer to it).
You want to get away from the idea that faster/smarter/more accurate is equivalent to better. Your partner's comments seem to be triggering your own status-consciousness and putting you into competition with him for "status points". Notice how many of the other suggestions here play into the neurotypical status game by encouraging you to put him down (bitingly) in order to condition him to behave the way you like -- because social status is the thing that most people in our society care about the most, and have conditioned neurodivergent people to grasp for in order to avoid rejection.
Instead, have a conversation about values (and why you actually love each other), and then have a conversation about ableism (and internalized ableism) and the way "faster=better" is a problematic concept in general.
posted by heatherlogan at 7:35 AM on March 19 [12 favorites]
This is just reinforcing the neurotypical value system of social status and thereby encouraging the status-seeking comments. It's estimated that ADHDers receive 20,000 more negative comments by the age of 10 just at school than neurotypical kids -- and wasting their potential is one of the most threatening things you can say to an ADHDer (because they have likely heard it thousands of times before... and have no answer to it).
You want to get away from the idea that faster/smarter/more accurate is equivalent to better. Your partner's comments seem to be triggering your own status-consciousness and putting you into competition with him for "status points". Notice how many of the other suggestions here play into the neurotypical status game by encouraging you to put him down (bitingly) in order to condition him to behave the way you like -- because social status is the thing that most people in our society care about the most, and have conditioned neurodivergent people to grasp for in order to avoid rejection.
Instead, have a conversation about values (and why you actually love each other), and then have a conversation about ableism (and internalized ableism) and the way "faster=better" is a problematic concept in general.
posted by heatherlogan at 7:35 AM on March 19 [12 favorites]
Are you able to recognize these moments when they're happening? You mention having limited relationship experience, and I want to offer that an important relationship skill to learn for me was a) identifying when something was happening that made me feel bad/uncomfortable/displeased (my longstanding tendency was a combination of being super 'understanding' and downplaying my own genuine reactions to the point of denial) and b) proactively communicate about it. Not doing those things ends up being corrosive to my feelings for the other person 100% of the time- it's actually being willing to be in conflict that makes relationship preservation possible (though not guaranteed).
You're asking this question, so obviously you're on the right track, but I think the next step is to not overthink it. The next time it happens, you really can just say- hey, that came off as judgmental / hey, that kind of comparison makes me feel like you see me as less than / hey, you are explaining my own culture to me right now and I need you to stop. Don't get shitty and sarcastic about it, but do be direct and honest.
There's also room for a meta-level conversation in which you present basically what you've said in this post. I think you need to prepare yourself for the conversation to not go well and let go of trying to control his reaction by phrasing things perfectly. Remember that the issue here is how he is treating you, not that you have feelings about it. Someone with this kind of fragile ego is likely to react defensively no matter how you phrase it (my prediction is he will tell you all about how you are wrong and try to explain to you what is 'really' happening and why there is not actually a problem). That's good information; you can point out the defensiveness and ask him to try to see things from your perspective, and/but you don't want to waste a lot of time in a relationship with someone who isn't able to see or try to remedy this kind of defensiveness in themself. The important thing is that you are experiencing his words and behavior in a way that negatively impacts you and the relationship, and you have every right and reasonable expectation in a relationship to communicate about that and ask for change.
posted by wormtales at 8:12 AM on March 19 [12 favorites]
You're asking this question, so obviously you're on the right track, but I think the next step is to not overthink it. The next time it happens, you really can just say- hey, that came off as judgmental / hey, that kind of comparison makes me feel like you see me as less than / hey, you are explaining my own culture to me right now and I need you to stop. Don't get shitty and sarcastic about it, but do be direct and honest.
There's also room for a meta-level conversation in which you present basically what you've said in this post. I think you need to prepare yourself for the conversation to not go well and let go of trying to control his reaction by phrasing things perfectly. Remember that the issue here is how he is treating you, not that you have feelings about it. Someone with this kind of fragile ego is likely to react defensively no matter how you phrase it (my prediction is he will tell you all about how you are wrong and try to explain to you what is 'really' happening and why there is not actually a problem). That's good information; you can point out the defensiveness and ask him to try to see things from your perspective, and/but you don't want to waste a lot of time in a relationship with someone who isn't able to see or try to remedy this kind of defensiveness in themself. The important thing is that you are experiencing his words and behavior in a way that negatively impacts you and the relationship, and you have every right and reasonable expectation in a relationship to communicate about that and ask for change.
posted by wormtales at 8:12 AM on March 19 [12 favorites]
My father does this to a massive extent and it's extremely annoying- I'm almost certain he's a narcissist, it's gotten worse as he's aged, and nothing I've been able to do has changed it.
However your partner sounds less severe and it reminds me a bit of the way I used to behave. I think, growing up around my father, boasting like this seemed normal to me and I used to engage in it. One day someone said to me "you know, it's not normal to give yourself compliments all the time." An assholish thing to say but I needed to hear it, and I stopped. If your partner is capable of stopping maybe say that to him and see what affect it has?
posted by Tanya at 9:17 AM on March 19 [9 favorites]
However your partner sounds less severe and it reminds me a bit of the way I used to behave. I think, growing up around my father, boasting like this seemed normal to me and I used to engage in it. One day someone said to me "you know, it's not normal to give yourself compliments all the time." An assholish thing to say but I needed to hear it, and I stopped. If your partner is capable of stopping maybe say that to him and see what affect it has?
posted by Tanya at 9:17 AM on March 19 [9 favorites]
People like this are generally insecure. They also tend to be sheltered and not have a ton of life experience - big fish, small pond syndrome. For the long term, the solution is to grow older, wiser, do and see more, interact with more people on a broader scale, and have a few more hard knocks in life.
But what you want is a short-term solution that will prevent you from being annoying and offended. I wouldn't recommend a conversation, it won't work at all. I would immediately stop praising him and bolstering his self-esteem, that's also the wrong approach. Instead, when he does this, go cold fish/gray rock for a solid hour. Immediately, like Pavlov's dog, get up and leave silently. "I have to go to the bathroom." Stony face, no reaction. "I forgot something in the car." "I have an important call." Whatever. Don't react, don't talk about it at all, and the key is to IMMEDIATELY come up with some excuse and remove yourself for a good amount of time.
Whether or not he consciously realizes it, he will eventually lessen this behavior if he wants you around.
posted by stockpuppet at 9:26 AM on March 19 [3 favorites]
But what you want is a short-term solution that will prevent you from being annoying and offended. I wouldn't recommend a conversation, it won't work at all. I would immediately stop praising him and bolstering his self-esteem, that's also the wrong approach. Instead, when he does this, go cold fish/gray rock for a solid hour. Immediately, like Pavlov's dog, get up and leave silently. "I have to go to the bathroom." Stony face, no reaction. "I forgot something in the car." "I have an important call." Whatever. Don't react, don't talk about it at all, and the key is to IMMEDIATELY come up with some excuse and remove yourself for a good amount of time.
Whether or not he consciously realizes it, he will eventually lessen this behavior if he wants you around.
posted by stockpuppet at 9:26 AM on March 19 [3 favorites]
I am really surprised that people find this so horribly odious and aggressive rather than just tiresome and annoying. I have known vast swaths of people who acted like this, for example everyone male in the town I moved to in the northeast from another country as a kid.
It was very gendered normative behavior. And - To me it still sounds like the normal behavior of a 12 year old boy.
Some decent adult people who aren't good at social cues just don't naturally shift away from established youth behaviors until someone tells them to.
If he's an otherwise good guy: Next time he does this I would say "Hey -- you don't need to announce your superiority (at X), it makes me feel crappy. I can see when you're good at something and it honestly doesn't make you seem better at it if others aren't as good as you and it hurts my feelings." See how he reacts. Then the next time it happens say "Remember that thing?" If he doesn't change from two examples, or if he reacts badly to your input, that's significant information. If he apologizes and works on changing, that's information too.
posted by rainy day girl at 9:45 AM on March 19 [9 favorites]
It was very gendered normative behavior. And - To me it still sounds like the normal behavior of a 12 year old boy.
Some decent adult people who aren't good at social cues just don't naturally shift away from established youth behaviors until someone tells them to.
If he's an otherwise good guy: Next time he does this I would say "Hey -- you don't need to announce your superiority (at X), it makes me feel crappy. I can see when you're good at something and it honestly doesn't make you seem better at it if others aren't as good as you and it hurts my feelings." See how he reacts. Then the next time it happens say "Remember that thing?" If he doesn't change from two examples, or if he reacts badly to your input, that's significant information. If he apologizes and works on changing, that's information too.
posted by rainy day girl at 9:45 AM on March 19 [9 favorites]
,that he's an amazing dad
Your kids too, or not?
Either way it’s worth trying to wake him up for their sake, but if they’re yours too, I think you’re obligated to.
posted by jamjam at 9:56 AM on March 19 [1 favorite]
Your kids too, or not?
Either way it’s worth trying to wake him up for their sake, but if they’re yours too, I think you’re obligated to.
posted by jamjam at 9:56 AM on March 19 [1 favorite]
One upside to treating this as a quirky habit is you don't have to debate the rightness or wrongness of the behavior.
"Hey, I really dislike the sound of whistling. Could you stop whistling around me?"
"Hey, I really dislike the scent of coconut. Could you switch to a different deodorant scent?"
"Hey, I really dislike when you comment about how quickly or easily I'm doing something compared to you. Could you keep those thoughts to yourself?"
"Hey, I really dislike when you explain obvious things to me. Could you wait until I ask you for an explanation?"
Through this lens, if he were to say, "I'm just trying to help you" or, "I'm just point out what's happening," it would make as much sense as if he said, "But whistling sounds awesome" or, "But coconut is the best scent." (As an example, my spouse hates the scent of roses. I think it's nice. I would never try to persuade him to like rose fragrances, or wear rose-scented things around him, because I understand his preference.) His intent and rationale don't really matter: it's the impact of his actions that matter. And you're saying, "I don't enjoy this, please stop." It's perfectly fine to get into the rightness and wrongness of saying obnoxious stuff to your partner, but I'd start by asking for a behavior change and see how he reacts. If this is a social habit that works for him with others (e.g., it's something he and his friends do with each other and don't mind), that's fine when he's with others. You need him to stop doing the behavior with you. It's sometimes easier to get someone to change their behavior if you're saying, "Please don't do XYZ around me" rather than "XYZ is bad and I need you to agree with me."
posted by theotherdurassister at 10:04 AM on March 19 [14 favorites]
"Hey, I really dislike the sound of whistling. Could you stop whistling around me?"
"Hey, I really dislike the scent of coconut. Could you switch to a different deodorant scent?"
"Hey, I really dislike when you comment about how quickly or easily I'm doing something compared to you. Could you keep those thoughts to yourself?"
"Hey, I really dislike when you explain obvious things to me. Could you wait until I ask you for an explanation?"
Through this lens, if he were to say, "I'm just trying to help you" or, "I'm just point out what's happening," it would make as much sense as if he said, "But whistling sounds awesome" or, "But coconut is the best scent." (As an example, my spouse hates the scent of roses. I think it's nice. I would never try to persuade him to like rose fragrances, or wear rose-scented things around him, because I understand his preference.) His intent and rationale don't really matter: it's the impact of his actions that matter. And you're saying, "I don't enjoy this, please stop." It's perfectly fine to get into the rightness and wrongness of saying obnoxious stuff to your partner, but I'd start by asking for a behavior change and see how he reacts. If this is a social habit that works for him with others (e.g., it's something he and his friends do with each other and don't mind), that's fine when he's with others. You need him to stop doing the behavior with you. It's sometimes easier to get someone to change their behavior if you're saying, "Please don't do XYZ around me" rather than "XYZ is bad and I need you to agree with me."
posted by theotherdurassister at 10:04 AM on March 19 [14 favorites]
I am really surprised that people find this so horribly odious and aggressive rather than just tiresome and annoying. I have known vast swaths of people who acted like this, for example everyone male in the town I moved to in the northeast from another country as a kid.
It was very gendered normative behavior. And - To me it still sounds like the normal behavior of a 12 year old boy.
I’m not sure I disagree. I think most adults do not want their intimate partners to behave like 12 year old boys, though. It’s exhausting and hurtful to have to have your shields up and filters on all the time because someone you’re close to is overtly engaging you in juvenile status games. It’s exhausting and decidedly unerotic to feel you must teach proper social behavior to someone you’re dating. Etc.
posted by eirias at 10:12 AM on March 19 [14 favorites]
It was very gendered normative behavior. And - To me it still sounds like the normal behavior of a 12 year old boy.
I’m not sure I disagree. I think most adults do not want their intimate partners to behave like 12 year old boys, though. It’s exhausting and hurtful to have to have your shields up and filters on all the time because someone you’re close to is overtly engaging you in juvenile status games. It’s exhausting and decidedly unerotic to feel you must teach proper social behavior to someone you’re dating. Etc.
posted by eirias at 10:12 AM on March 19 [14 favorites]
What's really sad to me is how you've taken on him hurting your feelings as a project and he's likely blissfully unaware. You're gathering examples and puzzling through why he might be this way. You don't even know if he would see all this -- his behavior and your feelings -- as a problem. I wonder if you are also someone who often has a hard time expressing their feelings, especially when someone is hurting your feelings. This can be a really tough situation! It sounds like it's gone on quite a while.
In addition to having a bigger conversation about some of these patterns, you might try something as simple as saying "Ouch" when it happens. Let him know your feelings are hurt.
posted by bluedaisy at 10:17 AM on March 19 [8 favorites]
In addition to having a bigger conversation about some of these patterns, you might try something as simple as saying "Ouch" when it happens. Let him know your feelings are hurt.
posted by bluedaisy at 10:17 AM on March 19 [8 favorites]
Bless your heart - and I mean this in the nicest possible way - for indulging this Man Child for so long. I disagree that he is clueless or not aware of what he's doing. He says these things because 1) he wants to and 2) he can. Number one you can't do anything about because douchecanoe is going to douchecanoe. But you can take care of number 2 which is to either push back and tell him in no uncertain terms that he's being an asshole with those comments and to cut it out or - my preferred option - DTMFA (aka dump him).
You are wasting so much energy on this question that is not your question at all. If anything, he should be writing in asking how to stop being such a jerk to someone who is as invested in the relationship as you appear to be.
You deserve better. Full stop.
posted by tafetta, darling! at 10:53 AM on March 19 [3 favorites]
You are wasting so much energy on this question that is not your question at all. If anything, he should be writing in asking how to stop being such a jerk to someone who is as invested in the relationship as you appear to be.
You deserve better. Full stop.
posted by tafetta, darling! at 10:53 AM on March 19 [3 favorites]
How old is he? There are a couple hints throughout your question that you might both be pretty young.
I'd guess that 21 is the typical age to realize "gee, my endless demands that people admire me sure are backfiring!"
Someone in his early 20s who has not yet reached that realization is likely to mature soon. Others have given suggestions for ways you might nudge him toward growth, and have also correctly pointed out that it's not necessarily your responsibility to do so.
Someone in his 30s who has not yet reached that realization is not likely to.
posted by foursentences at 11:05 AM on March 19 [1 favorite]
I'd guess that 21 is the typical age to realize "gee, my endless demands that people admire me sure are backfiring!"
Someone in his early 20s who has not yet reached that realization is likely to mature soon. Others have given suggestions for ways you might nudge him toward growth, and have also correctly pointed out that it's not necessarily your responsibility to do so.
Someone in his 30s who has not yet reached that realization is not likely to.
posted by foursentences at 11:05 AM on March 19 [1 favorite]
Ok so I’m Autistic and in my 50s, and I’ve been reflecting on this habit I’m sure I learned in childhood, of emphasizing the things I’m good at, and when I was younger I’m sure I crowed about myself obnoxiously from time to time. It comes from a deep shame and humiliation for not being “normal” and trying to compensate for it. I’ve done a lot of therapy and meditation and I feel more comfortable with myself, and surprisingly, I don’t much feel the need to judge and compare people anymore.
What are my suggestions for how to talk to him about it? Since he’s AuDHD you need to be direct and specific but kind. Do a lot of I statements, “when you said X it made me feel Y”. Tell him he might be hurting people’s feelings or making people think he’s judgmental. If he’s willing to do therapy, find a therapist who’s well versed in his neurodivergencies. Maybe a coach like @jesdiverges might have some resources.
posted by matildaben at 11:26 AM on March 19 [7 favorites]
What are my suggestions for how to talk to him about it? Since he’s AuDHD you need to be direct and specific but kind. Do a lot of I statements, “when you said X it made me feel Y”. Tell him he might be hurting people’s feelings or making people think he’s judgmental. If he’s willing to do therapy, find a therapist who’s well versed in his neurodivergencies. Maybe a coach like @jesdiverges might have some resources.
posted by matildaben at 11:26 AM on March 19 [7 favorites]
this is four-year-old behavior. announcing to all & sundry that he is a big boy who can read big-boy books, reporting that he saw a fire truck go by and yesterday he saw TWO fire trucks, how many did you see, probably not as many as him. the behavior of a child so young he sincerely thinks he is doing the world a favor by telling it interesting facts about the wonders of him. a child who has never been confronted with peers willing to say what his doting parents never would (“Who cares?”)
and while his arrested development is no fault of yours, I regret to say you are doing yourself no favors by giving him constant praise that sounds positively parental in its overcompensation:
I praise him a few times a month about various things and remind him of all his good traits when he's feeling down about himself. I tell him that he's really smart, his work is wasting his potential, that he's an amazing dad, that he's an amazing guy in general, that kind of stuff relatively often.
I believe in being nice to people you love and in giving compliments when the spirit moves you. but this would be too much for anyone not as stuck on himself as he seems to be.
posted by queenofbithynia at 1:20 PM on March 19 [10 favorites]
and while his arrested development is no fault of yours, I regret to say you are doing yourself no favors by giving him constant praise that sounds positively parental in its overcompensation:
I praise him a few times a month about various things and remind him of all his good traits when he's feeling down about himself. I tell him that he's really smart, his work is wasting his potential, that he's an amazing dad, that he's an amazing guy in general, that kind of stuff relatively often.
I believe in being nice to people you love and in giving compliments when the spirit moves you. but this would be too much for anyone not as stuck on himself as he seems to be.
posted by queenofbithynia at 1:20 PM on March 19 [10 favorites]
I'm someone who likes to give compliments, too, by the way, and boost people up. I definitely focus on the positive with loved ones, including partners. I am wondering if this guy is a bit of a sponge for your positive energy. Does he ever give it back?
I dated someone (possibly neurodivergent?) who truly thought I regarded him as exactly my type, my perfect specimen. I loved this guy and was attracted to him, but it hadn't occurred to him that I was focusing on the positive rather than not having any negatives. It never occurred to me that all my positive talk meant he thought he could mostly do no wrong with me.
So I am wondering if your guy isn't self-reflecting because you aren't really giving him any feedback or letting him know any of the ways he isn't being sensitive.
posted by bluedaisy at 1:37 PM on March 19 [3 favorites]
I dated someone (possibly neurodivergent?) who truly thought I regarded him as exactly my type, my perfect specimen. I loved this guy and was attracted to him, but it hadn't occurred to him that I was focusing on the positive rather than not having any negatives. It never occurred to me that all my positive talk meant he thought he could mostly do no wrong with me.
So I am wondering if your guy isn't self-reflecting because you aren't really giving him any feedback or letting him know any of the ways he isn't being sensitive.
posted by bluedaisy at 1:37 PM on March 19 [3 favorites]
Huh. I see pretty much every one of the examples as a sort of bluntness that he does not realize is off-putting. You did in fact read more slowly than him; you hadn't found the camouflaged image yet; his score is higher; etc. He doesn't sound like a narcissist since he readily also admits his shortcomings.
This really does seem like one characteristic of being on the spectrum. The more important thing than this tendency would be how he responded to you telling him that it hurts your feelings or feels unpleasant when he says those things as if they are value judgments against you, and whether he agrees to try to change his behavior.
posted by haptic_avenger at 2:53 PM on March 19 [1 favorite]
This really does seem like one characteristic of being on the spectrum. The more important thing than this tendency would be how he responded to you telling him that it hurts your feelings or feels unpleasant when he says those things as if they are value judgments against you, and whether he agrees to try to change his behavior.
posted by haptic_avenger at 2:53 PM on March 19 [1 favorite]
I think it's only fair for you to tell him that this behavior bothers and hurts you. I do not think you should have to project-manage his manners, though. It's one thing to (gently!) remind him on occasion when he forgets (with diminishing frequency over time, but it does take a little while to break old habits), another to have to dream up plans and compensations and whatever.
If he can't cope with this, then it really doesn't matter what the cause of the behavior is: he is incapable of acknowledging your feelings and preferences when they conflict with his own, and as such will not be a good long-term partner to you. Most of us have, at times, engaged in patterns of behavior that anger or hurt loved ones without realizing it; the question is whether we work to change even if we don't quite understand why it's a problem, because we care about not angering or hurting our loved ones.
posted by praemunire at 3:12 PM on March 19 [2 favorites]
If he can't cope with this, then it really doesn't matter what the cause of the behavior is: he is incapable of acknowledging your feelings and preferences when they conflict with his own, and as such will not be a good long-term partner to you. Most of us have, at times, engaged in patterns of behavior that anger or hurt loved ones without realizing it; the question is whether we work to change even if we don't quite understand why it's a problem, because we care about not angering or hurting our loved ones.
posted by praemunire at 3:12 PM on March 19 [2 favorites]
Sure, this looks like the sort of behavior that might be shown by a narcissist. It also looks like the sort of behavior shown by a somewhat immature person before they grow out of it. We're all on different schedules and never done growing up. I wouldn't call this hopeless yet.
If bluntness is the disease, bluntness might be the cure. It's worth a try, at least. If there's to be any hope of him dropping this habit, what he needs is constant, instant, gentle but firm pushback.
"This is not a competition."
"Comparison is the thief of joy."
"There is no need to hurry."
If at all possible, leave it that. These words can stand on their own. There's no need for elaborate justifcations. The impact comes from the repetition.
If your guy does want to argue, you might ask why he feels such a frequent need to compare himself to others/comment on his own accomplishments.
If he denies that this is what he's doing - he's just stating facts! - you might point him towards Grice's cooperative prinicple of communication. Stating facts is rarely a sufficient reason to say something. "Only say things that are true" is just one of the four maxims (maxim of truth). There's also the maxim of quantity ("Make your contribution as informative as needed, not more, not less"), the maxim of relevance ("Only say things that are relevant to the conversation") and the maxim of manner ("avoid obscurity, ambiguity, be as clear as possible"). In the future, whenever he starts with the bragging, you can ding him with "Relevance?"
If he tells you that you're taking things too personally, say "Maybe. Just humour me."
If he can do that, that might be enough.
That said, I do suspect there's a deeper issue. Whether or not he would ever agree, the most obvious interpretation of his obsession with pointing out his own accomplishments would be a deep fear that they would go unnoticed otherwise. (If he's on the spectrum, that's not necessarily paranoid. The respect people pay him for his accomplishments might be somewhat grudging. They might be negatively biased against him, and frequently underrate him too. He might be subconsciously more aware of that than he's consciously willing to admit). You have to consider that he truly is as insecure as this behavior makes him look. All that show of confidence could be textbook over-compensating.
You talk about him not being able to use his full potential at work. That's potentially a deep wound. If work is not a promising source of sufficient external validation, you could encourage him to pursue hobbies where he gets a bit of a spotlight and applause from an audience other than you. Sadly, I think that praise from someone other than you might be more effective. (He knows you love him, and he might suspect you of saying things just to make him feel good.) Sometimes, it's not enough to be appreciated by your loved ones, sometimes one wants to impress. I think a bit of vanity is a very human sort of frailty, and not necessarily super-destructive, if one can channel it somewhat productively.
But you know, ultimately his self-confidence is his own responsibility. I don't think there's much of a point in discussing these theories with him. People rarely appreciate speculations about their true feelings and subconscious motivations unless they pay you to be their therapist (and even then, many therapists will generally be careful not to do that too much). Also, labelling someone as insecure can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I do think it's important for you to entertain these possibilities though, because insecurity can be a fatal threat to a relationship. You might (and frankly should) get him to no longer show that insecurity in such an obnoxious manner, but it's probably not in your hands to actually cure it.
I agree with many other comments that the real question is how we deals with situations when you surpass him. Can he acknowledge your superior skills in other areas? How does he behave when you celebrate a success? Can he share in your triumph? How does he react, when you are gassing yourself up a bit, or fishing for a compliment? Seriously, try it out for a bit. You can be playful and jokey about it! (eg. you are proofreading something for him and catching some typos - who's the best proofreader? tell me, how lost would you be without me?) Can he play along?
Honestly, if he can otherwise acknowledge his own limitations and your accomplishments over him, i'd probably still try to get him to cool it down with the bragging in company, because he's damaging his own social prospects with that behavior, and privately chuckle a bit at his occasional vanity at home, and not worry about it too much.
posted by sohalt at 4:08 PM on March 19
If bluntness is the disease, bluntness might be the cure. It's worth a try, at least. If there's to be any hope of him dropping this habit, what he needs is constant, instant, gentle but firm pushback.
"This is not a competition."
"Comparison is the thief of joy."
"There is no need to hurry."
If at all possible, leave it that. These words can stand on their own. There's no need for elaborate justifcations. The impact comes from the repetition.
If your guy does want to argue, you might ask why he feels such a frequent need to compare himself to others/comment on his own accomplishments.
If he denies that this is what he's doing - he's just stating facts! - you might point him towards Grice's cooperative prinicple of communication. Stating facts is rarely a sufficient reason to say something. "Only say things that are true" is just one of the four maxims (maxim of truth). There's also the maxim of quantity ("Make your contribution as informative as needed, not more, not less"), the maxim of relevance ("Only say things that are relevant to the conversation") and the maxim of manner ("avoid obscurity, ambiguity, be as clear as possible"). In the future, whenever he starts with the bragging, you can ding him with "Relevance?"
If he tells you that you're taking things too personally, say "Maybe. Just humour me."
If he can do that, that might be enough.
That said, I do suspect there's a deeper issue. Whether or not he would ever agree, the most obvious interpretation of his obsession with pointing out his own accomplishments would be a deep fear that they would go unnoticed otherwise. (If he's on the spectrum, that's not necessarily paranoid. The respect people pay him for his accomplishments might be somewhat grudging. They might be negatively biased against him, and frequently underrate him too. He might be subconsciously more aware of that than he's consciously willing to admit). You have to consider that he truly is as insecure as this behavior makes him look. All that show of confidence could be textbook over-compensating.
You talk about him not being able to use his full potential at work. That's potentially a deep wound. If work is not a promising source of sufficient external validation, you could encourage him to pursue hobbies where he gets a bit of a spotlight and applause from an audience other than you. Sadly, I think that praise from someone other than you might be more effective. (He knows you love him, and he might suspect you of saying things just to make him feel good.) Sometimes, it's not enough to be appreciated by your loved ones, sometimes one wants to impress. I think a bit of vanity is a very human sort of frailty, and not necessarily super-destructive, if one can channel it somewhat productively.
But you know, ultimately his self-confidence is his own responsibility. I don't think there's much of a point in discussing these theories with him. People rarely appreciate speculations about their true feelings and subconscious motivations unless they pay you to be their therapist (and even then, many therapists will generally be careful not to do that too much). Also, labelling someone as insecure can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I do think it's important for you to entertain these possibilities though, because insecurity can be a fatal threat to a relationship. You might (and frankly should) get him to no longer show that insecurity in such an obnoxious manner, but it's probably not in your hands to actually cure it.
I agree with many other comments that the real question is how we deals with situations when you surpass him. Can he acknowledge your superior skills in other areas? How does he behave when you celebrate a success? Can he share in your triumph? How does he react, when you are gassing yourself up a bit, or fishing for a compliment? Seriously, try it out for a bit. You can be playful and jokey about it! (eg. you are proofreading something for him and catching some typos - who's the best proofreader? tell me, how lost would you be without me?) Can he play along?
Honestly, if he can otherwise acknowledge his own limitations and your accomplishments over him, i'd probably still try to get him to cool it down with the bragging in company, because he's damaging his own social prospects with that behavior, and privately chuckle a bit at his occasional vanity at home, and not worry about it too much.
posted by sohalt at 4:08 PM on March 19
whuppy: Nth'ing that this is a job for Ding therapy, not a heartfelt talk.
For the love of god PLEASE do not suggest training neurodivergent people like we are animals. Do you not realize how hard we have to fight every day to be seen as human?
posted by capricorn at 6:45 PM on March 19 [9 favorites]
For the love of god PLEASE do not suggest training neurodivergent people like we are animals. Do you not realize how hard we have to fight every day to be seen as human?
posted by capricorn at 6:45 PM on March 19 [9 favorites]
In addition to disengaging when he starts telling you about his superpowers, I’d also stop giving him those pep talks about what a swell guy he is.
That excessive praise may cause him to think that you deserve (and even welcome) constant criticism from such a superior being. It’s doing nothing to stop his hurtful behavior.
posted by elphaba at 9:25 AM on March 20 [1 favorite]
That excessive praise may cause him to think that you deserve (and even welcome) constant criticism from such a superior being. It’s doing nothing to stop his hurtful behavior.
posted by elphaba at 9:25 AM on March 20 [1 favorite]
2. It's not your responsibility to psychoanalyze your partner. (Someone upthread)
If you try to make excuses for his behavior, then any conversation will put you and him against you. Confront an incident immediately with a flat response, as suggested in several replies upthreae.
You: "That was uncalled for."
Him: "What?"
You: "You called me a ...xxx... (slow reader)."
He said, "I didn't mean to hurt your feelings."
You: "Well, you did."
If he apologizes, accept. If he doesn't apologize, don't try to force an apology. Let the moment pass.
Don't use sarcasm or get sucked into the vortex that follows a "...you always do..." statement. Just deal with the issue at hand. Avoid overusing this tool. Pick your ground and choose instances of this behavior that apply to you, not his behavior towards other people.
At some point, he may try to engage you, either out of the blue or after you call him out for one of these things. Keep the conversation on the topic. Pick the most recent or most profound example. If he solicits other examples, avoid bringing out a grocery list. By keeping this conversation simple and limited about his behavior toward you, you may successfully ration your emotional response and get him to focus on the deed. I don't presume to suggest that his strategy will get him to revisit his internal architecture, but it may get him to think about the effects of his behavior on you.
As always, advice from a trained counselor will probably be more useful than advice from well-meaning MeFites on the Green.
Good luck.
posted by mule98J at 11:09 AM on March 20 [1 favorite]
If you try to make excuses for his behavior, then any conversation will put you and him against you. Confront an incident immediately with a flat response, as suggested in several replies upthreae.
You: "That was uncalled for."
Him: "What?"
You: "You called me a ...xxx... (slow reader)."
He said, "I didn't mean to hurt your feelings."
You: "Well, you did."
If he apologizes, accept. If he doesn't apologize, don't try to force an apology. Let the moment pass.
Don't use sarcasm or get sucked into the vortex that follows a "...you always do..." statement. Just deal with the issue at hand. Avoid overusing this tool. Pick your ground and choose instances of this behavior that apply to you, not his behavior towards other people.
At some point, he may try to engage you, either out of the blue or after you call him out for one of these things. Keep the conversation on the topic. Pick the most recent or most profound example. If he solicits other examples, avoid bringing out a grocery list. By keeping this conversation simple and limited about his behavior toward you, you may successfully ration your emotional response and get him to focus on the deed. I don't presume to suggest that his strategy will get him to revisit his internal architecture, but it may get him to think about the effects of his behavior on you.
As always, advice from a trained counselor will probably be more useful than advice from well-meaning MeFites on the Green.
Good luck.
posted by mule98J at 11:09 AM on March 20 [1 favorite]
For example, , "Are you still reading? You're slow. I'm already finished," and went on to explain to me that he's a fast reader.
Is him stating a fact. Presumably he's saying this because he's proud of being a fast reader, but there's not necessarily a value judgment there. I do this kind of thing a lot, blurting out something about myself that I'm proud of without realising that it must make the other person feel as if I'm putting them down.
This sentiment has been echoed by a couple people in this thread, but "You're slow" is not a fact. "You have not finished after 17 seconds" would be a fact. "You're slow" is, facially, a judgment. Since he's not talking about 17 seconds, he's telling you "you're slow", this isn't about facts that he in his neurodivergence just can't control himself from saying; this is a behavioral strategy, and like any other behavioral strategy, it's something that as an adult he can be expected to at least try to change when he finds out that it is hurtful.
When I say that it's a behavioral strategy, I don't mean that he one day consciously decided to neg you. I mean that there's something that the whole pattern of behavior does for him, and he may or may not understand or have ever consciously considered that it is a pattern, or which parts of the pattern are necessary to achieve the reinforcing effect.
This behavior may be in response to a legit need. Maybe the put-downs are entangled with larger patterns of behavior that have the goal of giving himself validation. Whatever this person is looking for, they need to come up with a strategy for getting it that does not come entangled with put-downs.
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 4:14 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
Is him stating a fact. Presumably he's saying this because he's proud of being a fast reader, but there's not necessarily a value judgment there. I do this kind of thing a lot, blurting out something about myself that I'm proud of without realising that it must make the other person feel as if I'm putting them down.
This sentiment has been echoed by a couple people in this thread, but "You're slow" is not a fact. "You have not finished after 17 seconds" would be a fact. "You're slow" is, facially, a judgment. Since he's not talking about 17 seconds, he's telling you "you're slow", this isn't about facts that he in his neurodivergence just can't control himself from saying; this is a behavioral strategy, and like any other behavioral strategy, it's something that as an adult he can be expected to at least try to change when he finds out that it is hurtful.
When I say that it's a behavioral strategy, I don't mean that he one day consciously decided to neg you. I mean that there's something that the whole pattern of behavior does for him, and he may or may not understand or have ever consciously considered that it is a pattern, or which parts of the pattern are necessary to achieve the reinforcing effect.
This behavior may be in response to a legit need. Maybe the put-downs are entangled with larger patterns of behavior that have the goal of giving himself validation. Whatever this person is looking for, they need to come up with a strategy for getting it that does not come entangled with put-downs.
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 4:14 PM on March 22 [2 favorites]
It sounds like a subconscious habit. He may have needed to stand out in a large family or maybe had to practice his self affirmations to the degree this is how he talks. I'd give him a few examples of how he speaks and ask him if hes aware how it sounds like "Your Companys Computer Guy". Maybe if he isnt very self aware you could give him examples of how often he does it and let him know how unattractive his competitive banter is.
! App
posted by The_imp_inimpossible at 6:04 AM on March 23
! App
posted by The_imp_inimpossible at 6:04 AM on March 23
For example, , "Are you still reading? You're slow. I'm already finished," and went on to explain to me that he's a fast reader.
Is him stating a fact.
Also, there are countless facts one could choose to state at any given moment: "I'm fond of you," "You might not find this interesting, so I appreciate you taking the time to read it anyway," "Sorry to interrupt, but I'm eager to hear your opinion on this text!" "Do you want to order pizza later?" "That's a really comfortable chair," or even, "I'm going to watch a video in the other room so I don't distract you."
There is also the option to say nothing. Whether something is true or not, saying it is a _choice_. What he would need to examine and justify is choosing to say this thing at this particular time, instead of saying another thing or staying silent.
posted by amtho at 10:59 AM on March 26
Is him stating a fact.
Also, there are countless facts one could choose to state at any given moment: "I'm fond of you," "You might not find this interesting, so I appreciate you taking the time to read it anyway," "Sorry to interrupt, but I'm eager to hear your opinion on this text!" "Do you want to order pizza later?" "That's a really comfortable chair," or even, "I'm going to watch a video in the other room so I don't distract you."
There is also the option to say nothing. Whether something is true or not, saying it is a _choice_. What he would need to examine and justify is choosing to say this thing at this particular time, instead of saying another thing or staying silent.
posted by amtho at 10:59 AM on March 26
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Telling a person to stop calling you names and stop putting you down is a totally fine thing to do. I’m concerned that you have to ask the question about whether or not that is a fair thing to ask. It’s not an easy conversation and it probably won’t go well.
I encourage you to seek an individual therapist. You deserve better than this. A therapist can help you regain your personal power and find your voice.
posted by shock muppet at 11:37 PM on March 18 [39 favorites]