How to stop hating myself and feeling inferior without a degree?
December 31, 2023 9:45 AM Subscribe
I don't have a university degree. All I have for an education is a high school diploma, a CDL, and a one-year college diploma from a career college. My therapist says I put too much emphasis and importance on a degree for my self-esteem, but I don't know how not to. [Mod edit: Content warning for R-word / slur used multiple times, in context from one who suffered from this language]
School was always a struggle for me. I was speech delayed (couldn't talk) until around the age of 5-6, and even as an adult, I still struggle with speech, albeit you might not notice it. Translating a thought into a movement of the tongue feels awkward and unnatural to me. I struggled with fine motor skills. Anything involving delicate or specific small movements, like holding a pen/pencil or tying shoes, was and still is an unholy challenge for me. Until I was diagnosed with autism (and for a long time after), I was the quintessential "retarded" special ed. child to classmates, teachers, and everyone in my life. (Phrases and words like "retarded," "unlikely to ever succeed," etc., were written into my report cards.) I graduated whole grades because the school felt it was "in everyone's best interest" that I move on, a euphemism schools liked to use to rid themselves of me.
It was hard always trying my best to be a good student and do well but constantly failing and then being told I was "retarded" and used as a public example of who not to be. Eventually, whenever I handed in any test or assignment for marking, I would write "retarded" all over them to make sure the teacher knew I knew I was "retarded" and hopefully deter them from reminding myself and the whole class of that fact. Anything the teacher handed back I would burn to destroy the evidence of my retardation. If at first you don't succeed...destroy all evidence you tried!
As an adult, I still angrily feel that sense of inferiority and "retardation" in me. I had every intention of going to university, but at 18, I was homeless and really couldn't afford it, and what university I did do I struggled with a lot.
The fact that I don't have a university degree makes me feel inferior and "retarded." Everyone I know and work with has a university degree. A large part of me feels inferior to those with university degrees in much the same way as I felt inferior to my classmates that breezed through school while I tried my best and was still "retarded."
Another part of me feels like my lack of educational achievement confirms that I am in fact "retarded." Often I think, "Wow, look at me, completely uneducated; I really proved I am not retarded, didn't I?!" with a mental eye-roll.
I want to think I am intelligent and skilled. Professionally, I've worked many jobs, from being a CDL driver operating various tractor-trailer configurations to coding in VBA, SQL, and Power Query M Formula for data analysis. Personally, my private library includes over 2,000 paperback and hardcover nonfiction books (I don't read fiction), and I self-published an award-winning book on international law that at least a few people have bought on Amazon. But this is all anecdotal since employers, publishers, and society at large only care about my degree or lack thereof, not the size of my home library or the fact that I self-published a book. If I don't have a degree, I might as well be "retarded," since nobody will ever acknowledge or accept me as intelligent, and I will always be inferior to those with a degree. I find it challenging to believe that I am intelligent and not "retarded" like my therapist thinks while simultaneously being rejected by employers, publishers, and everyone else as not good enough or qualified for anything intelligent. If I am so smart, why does it matter if I have a degree? If a degree matters, how can I be smart without one? Whatever I might think personally, this constant rejection for jobs and other opportunities confirms in my mind that I am "retarded."
My therapist says I put too much importance and emphasis on having a degree (she says there are lots of stupid people with degrees). But without a degree, how do I manage my desire to be accepted as intelligent and to be intelligent with the inner "retardation" I feel and the universal rejection I experience for jobs and other opportunities which seem to confirm that I am, in fact, "retarded"?
School was always a struggle for me. I was speech delayed (couldn't talk) until around the age of 5-6, and even as an adult, I still struggle with speech, albeit you might not notice it. Translating a thought into a movement of the tongue feels awkward and unnatural to me. I struggled with fine motor skills. Anything involving delicate or specific small movements, like holding a pen/pencil or tying shoes, was and still is an unholy challenge for me. Until I was diagnosed with autism (and for a long time after), I was the quintessential "retarded" special ed. child to classmates, teachers, and everyone in my life. (Phrases and words like "retarded," "unlikely to ever succeed," etc., were written into my report cards.) I graduated whole grades because the school felt it was "in everyone's best interest" that I move on, a euphemism schools liked to use to rid themselves of me.
It was hard always trying my best to be a good student and do well but constantly failing and then being told I was "retarded" and used as a public example of who not to be. Eventually, whenever I handed in any test or assignment for marking, I would write "retarded" all over them to make sure the teacher knew I knew I was "retarded" and hopefully deter them from reminding myself and the whole class of that fact. Anything the teacher handed back I would burn to destroy the evidence of my retardation. If at first you don't succeed...destroy all evidence you tried!
As an adult, I still angrily feel that sense of inferiority and "retardation" in me. I had every intention of going to university, but at 18, I was homeless and really couldn't afford it, and what university I did do I struggled with a lot.
The fact that I don't have a university degree makes me feel inferior and "retarded." Everyone I know and work with has a university degree. A large part of me feels inferior to those with university degrees in much the same way as I felt inferior to my classmates that breezed through school while I tried my best and was still "retarded."
Another part of me feels like my lack of educational achievement confirms that I am in fact "retarded." Often I think, "Wow, look at me, completely uneducated; I really proved I am not retarded, didn't I?!" with a mental eye-roll.
I want to think I am intelligent and skilled. Professionally, I've worked many jobs, from being a CDL driver operating various tractor-trailer configurations to coding in VBA, SQL, and Power Query M Formula for data analysis. Personally, my private library includes over 2,000 paperback and hardcover nonfiction books (I don't read fiction), and I self-published an award-winning book on international law that at least a few people have bought on Amazon. But this is all anecdotal since employers, publishers, and society at large only care about my degree or lack thereof, not the size of my home library or the fact that I self-published a book. If I don't have a degree, I might as well be "retarded," since nobody will ever acknowledge or accept me as intelligent, and I will always be inferior to those with a degree. I find it challenging to believe that I am intelligent and not "retarded" like my therapist thinks while simultaneously being rejected by employers, publishers, and everyone else as not good enough or qualified for anything intelligent. If I am so smart, why does it matter if I have a degree? If a degree matters, how can I be smart without one? Whatever I might think personally, this constant rejection for jobs and other opportunities confirms in my mind that I am "retarded."
My therapist says I put too much importance and emphasis on having a degree (she says there are lots of stupid people with degrees). But without a degree, how do I manage my desire to be accepted as intelligent and to be intelligent with the inner "retardation" I feel and the universal rejection I experience for jobs and other opportunities which seem to confirm that I am, in fact, "retarded"?
You wrote an award-winning academic book! (I skimmed your history to make sure :)
I have a PhD and I'll never do that. There's an old Mark Twain line "I never let my schooling interfere with my education"; I think that you should take that to heart and it may help you frame things more positively.
You clearly have a lot of eduction and knowledge, how it's gained is somewhat irrelevant, and certainly less important than what you do with it.
Your therapist is right, plenty of not-very-bright people have degrees. But not very many people succeed in non-fiction writing without one, so you are exceptional and outstanding at that!
posted by SaltySalticid at 10:01 AM on December 31, 2023 [24 favorites]
I have a PhD and I'll never do that. There's an old Mark Twain line "I never let my schooling interfere with my education"; I think that you should take that to heart and it may help you frame things more positively.
You clearly have a lot of eduction and knowledge, how it's gained is somewhat irrelevant, and certainly less important than what you do with it.
Your therapist is right, plenty of not-very-bright people have degrees. But not very many people succeed in non-fiction writing without one, so you are exceptional and outstanding at that!
posted by SaltySalticid at 10:01 AM on December 31, 2023 [24 favorites]
You can absolutely still get a degree if it's important to you.
But, I have an undergraduate degree (with honors!) from a well respected state school, and my partner had to drop out of college for financial aid reasons and has yet to go back at 42. He makes almost 3x my income and most people would consider him more successful in life. Certainly no one would describe him as unintelligent, and I suspect the same is true of you.
At 40, people who are still impressed by the degree I earned at 22 are generally kind of weird and off-putting.
posted by the primroses were over at 10:05 AM on December 31, 2023 [20 favorites]
But, I have an undergraduate degree (with honors!) from a well respected state school, and my partner had to drop out of college for financial aid reasons and has yet to go back at 42. He makes almost 3x my income and most people would consider him more successful in life. Certainly no one would describe him as unintelligent, and I suspect the same is true of you.
At 40, people who are still impressed by the degree I earned at 22 are generally kind of weird and off-putting.
posted by the primroses were over at 10:05 AM on December 31, 2023 [20 favorites]
There is a lot that goes into whether someone is able to complete a degree at university that has nothing to do with their intelligence or their worth as a human being. Many people go to university out of high school (often at 18 in the US), but many older people also apply when they are free and if they are fortunate enough to be supported socially and economically to do so. They do wonderful and useful things with the knowledge they gain there, however "delayed" they may be when compared to another person's life history.
You may be interested in the story that emerged recently of a man working at a factory in China who studies philosophy during his free time. https://www.sixthtone.com/news/1009567
He reached a level of translation skill and knowledge that earned him some recognition from scholars. Like you, he had done some university in an unrelated field already, but struggled and did not complete the degree.
posted by nowhere_sparrow at 10:06 AM on December 31, 2023
You may be interested in the story that emerged recently of a man working at a factory in China who studies philosophy during his free time. https://www.sixthtone.com/news/1009567
He reached a level of translation skill and knowledge that earned him some recognition from scholars. Like you, he had done some university in an unrelated field already, but struggled and did not complete the degree.
posted by nowhere_sparrow at 10:06 AM on December 31, 2023
Also not degreed here, and also used to have a minor inferiority complex about it. It took me a long time to realize two fundamental truths:
1) People who do not know that I don't have a degree....don't know that I don't have a degree. And if it ever comes up, it's largely irrelevant. No one cares.
2) The only person who thought less of my lack of advanced education was me.
There is nothing wrong with you.
posted by Thistledown at 10:12 AM on December 31, 2023 [18 favorites]
1) People who do not know that I don't have a degree....don't know that I don't have a degree. And if it ever comes up, it's largely irrelevant. No one cares.
2) The only person who thought less of my lack of advanced education was me.
There is nothing wrong with you.
posted by Thistledown at 10:12 AM on December 31, 2023 [18 favorites]
Two of the most brilliant people I know do not have degrees.
The tendency to compare what you haven't accomplished, to what other people have, is a pretty universal human tendency.
I often compare myself to others in terms of their parenting and career accomplishments, even though mine are nothing to sneeze at. I have an ambition to write a book, but my health conditions have gotten in the way. I sometimes feel really negatively about what I *haven't* done compared to what other people *have* done, rather than enjoying or feeling proud of what I have done despite obstacles.
To the extent that I do this more than is healthy for me, or get hung up on it rather than having a passing feeling, it is usually at times when my overall sense of self-confidence/self-worth is not good. I could try to "talk myself out of it," by noticing that it's illogical, but it's hard to talk yourself out of feelings.
Lack of confidence is a *feeling* that your body uses as a signal to you that you have an unmet need. Figuring out that deeper need may help you let go of the idea that going to college will magically make you feel whole, and you might find a way to meet that deeper need in the moment.
posted by mai at 10:23 AM on December 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
The tendency to compare what you haven't accomplished, to what other people have, is a pretty universal human tendency.
I often compare myself to others in terms of their parenting and career accomplishments, even though mine are nothing to sneeze at. I have an ambition to write a book, but my health conditions have gotten in the way. I sometimes feel really negatively about what I *haven't* done compared to what other people *have* done, rather than enjoying or feeling proud of what I have done despite obstacles.
To the extent that I do this more than is healthy for me, or get hung up on it rather than having a passing feeling, it is usually at times when my overall sense of self-confidence/self-worth is not good. I could try to "talk myself out of it," by noticing that it's illogical, but it's hard to talk yourself out of feelings.
Lack of confidence is a *feeling* that your body uses as a signal to you that you have an unmet need. Figuring out that deeper need may help you let go of the idea that going to college will magically make you feel whole, and you might find a way to meet that deeper need in the moment.
posted by mai at 10:23 AM on December 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Okay, so you seem to be saying you look down on yourself for not having a degree, but then you keep saying others do as well. Which is it?
But this is all anecdotal since employers, publishers, and society at large only care about my degree or lack thereof, not the size of my home library or the fact that I self-published a book.
I have a few degrees, and while I am not society as a whole, I definitely don’t look down on you or anyone without one. Whether someone has a degree has a lot to do with their life circumstances at age 18. Yes, it’s a required credential in some fields. Do you want to work in those fields?
I think you should decide whether to get one, or to work on letting this go. I don’t think a degree will fill that hole in your heart, but it seems to be an important credential for you with a lot of emotional import, so why not start chipping away at it?
posted by bluedaisy at 10:30 AM on December 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
But this is all anecdotal since employers, publishers, and society at large only care about my degree or lack thereof, not the size of my home library or the fact that I self-published a book.
I have a few degrees, and while I am not society as a whole, I definitely don’t look down on you or anyone without one. Whether someone has a degree has a lot to do with their life circumstances at age 18. Yes, it’s a required credential in some fields. Do you want to work in those fields?
I think you should decide whether to get one, or to work on letting this go. I don’t think a degree will fill that hole in your heart, but it seems to be an important credential for you with a lot of emotional import, so why not start chipping away at it?
posted by bluedaisy at 10:30 AM on December 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
This really sounds like sometimes the cheapest way to pay for a thing is with money. I'd suggest taking a college class to start out with. Once you've aced a couple of classes and proved to yourself that you can do it, you may decide to go on and get the degree or you may decide that you don't want it.
I am confident that you will cruise through undergraduate course work, even if it creates some intense feelings for you.
I've followed your posts with interest since I have a degree but also have a pink collar job and have felt a lot of ambivalence and inferiority over the years as peers have gotten advanced degrees and fancier, more respected jobs, have done cool things in the arts, etc. I look back and I know that both my class background and certain really shitty things that damaged me in childhood and adolescence kept me from understanding that I could in fact do those things. And now I'm rising fifty. I've come to terms with some of it and found some good in the rest but still have regrets.
One thing: I was very bad with numbers and forgetting things, etc, as a younger person. I took some accounting classes as part of getting a better pink collar job and was very worried that I would screw them up but I got all A's. Just getting older and working in jobs had given me a lot of metacognitive strategies that I didn't have when I was younger. It's easier for me to reason and learn now even though I was technically a smart kid. My guess is that just by virtue of growing up and living in the world, you will have gained many habits of thought that will help you to succeed where you might have struggled as a teen.
In any case, I think you should take some college classes.
posted by Frowner at 10:31 AM on December 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
I am confident that you will cruise through undergraduate course work, even if it creates some intense feelings for you.
I've followed your posts with interest since I have a degree but also have a pink collar job and have felt a lot of ambivalence and inferiority over the years as peers have gotten advanced degrees and fancier, more respected jobs, have done cool things in the arts, etc. I look back and I know that both my class background and certain really shitty things that damaged me in childhood and adolescence kept me from understanding that I could in fact do those things. And now I'm rising fifty. I've come to terms with some of it and found some good in the rest but still have regrets.
One thing: I was very bad with numbers and forgetting things, etc, as a younger person. I took some accounting classes as part of getting a better pink collar job and was very worried that I would screw them up but I got all A's. Just getting older and working in jobs had given me a lot of metacognitive strategies that I didn't have when I was younger. It's easier for me to reason and learn now even though I was technically a smart kid. My guess is that just by virtue of growing up and living in the world, you will have gained many habits of thought that will help you to succeed where you might have struggled as a teen.
In any case, I think you should take some college classes.
posted by Frowner at 10:31 AM on December 31, 2023 [12 favorites]
I have multiple degrees, and they mean... I have a bunch of degrees. I'm middle aged and have met many dolts with degrees of all sorts, as well as any number of intelligent folks who didn't get a college degree for one reason or another, as well as voracious learners who never went to college.
A large part of me feels inferior to those with university degrees in much the same way as I felt inferior to my classmates that breezed through school while I tried my best and was still "retarded."
Your feelings about this are yours to reckon with, but to be clear, yes, many people will look down on you (at least initially) for your lack of degrees. Those people are generally assholes, ignorant, or ignorant assholes. My experience has been that those people fade away, grow up, or simply tend to shut up as they get older.
Every once in a while I meet someone who didn't go to or finish college who is doing work that ordinarily involves having a college degree. This may be surprising, but it's not a... qualitative difference, just a life difference. Frankly I think it's more interesting than anything, if the person is willing to talk about it--the drive to pursue something outside of/in spite of barriers to the most common educational path.
If you haven't read/watched it, you might enjoy Neil Gaiman's "Make Good Art" speech. It touches on a number of things that I think you might find useful.
posted by cupcakeninja at 10:32 AM on December 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
A large part of me feels inferior to those with university degrees in much the same way as I felt inferior to my classmates that breezed through school while I tried my best and was still "retarded."
Your feelings about this are yours to reckon with, but to be clear, yes, many people will look down on you (at least initially) for your lack of degrees. Those people are generally assholes, ignorant, or ignorant assholes. My experience has been that those people fade away, grow up, or simply tend to shut up as they get older.
Every once in a while I meet someone who didn't go to or finish college who is doing work that ordinarily involves having a college degree. This may be surprising, but it's not a... qualitative difference, just a life difference. Frankly I think it's more interesting than anything, if the person is willing to talk about it--the drive to pursue something outside of/in spite of barriers to the most common educational path.
If you haven't read/watched it, you might enjoy Neil Gaiman's "Make Good Art" speech. It touches on a number of things that I think you might find useful.
posted by cupcakeninja at 10:32 AM on December 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
You can either come to terms with not having a degree, or go out and get one. Either approach is valid. Or why not both?
The wonderful thing is that higher education is more accessible than ever. You can pick and choose the courses that work best for you: online or in person, synchronous or asynchronous, regimented or open-ended, group-work or individual effort. Some advance scouting will let you plan your success.
You can also apply for academic accommodations, like having more time to write an exam, or writing it in a quiet room alone.
There's nothing wrong with being an atypical learner. I would love to have a student who is active and engaged in their learning.
posted by dum spiro spero at 10:33 AM on December 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
The wonderful thing is that higher education is more accessible than ever. You can pick and choose the courses that work best for you: online or in person, synchronous or asynchronous, regimented or open-ended, group-work or individual effort. Some advance scouting will let you plan your success.
You can also apply for academic accommodations, like having more time to write an exam, or writing it in a quiet room alone.
There's nothing wrong with being an atypical learner. I would love to have a student who is active and engaged in their learning.
posted by dum spiro spero at 10:33 AM on December 31, 2023 [7 favorites]
But this is all anecdotal since employers, publishers, and society at large only care about my degree or lack thereof, not the size of my home library or the fact that I self-published a book.
So here’s my degree story. I arrived at university with PTSD for all the reasons families don’t talk about, and thanks to those issues I also made choices that resulted in being raped (that and the perpetrators of course.) After struggling for several years, I dropped out 2 required courses short of an honours (with pretty spotty grades, with extra courses, and I could have taken the non-honours degree..) Then I got married and transferred those credits over to a local university, and dropped out again, not the proper way, in 1996, having completed 3 more courses but still 2 required courses short (This new degree was a bilingual one so I added a new language requirement.)
I did some continuing ed classes a bit randomly- programming, adult education, paralegal, editing. Those classes helped me get over the issues I’d developed about university although they weren’t “real” classes.
I had a 3-year stint in non-profit, promoted twice, and a 18-year career in media including heading up a large magazine website. Did marketing, switched to martial arts. Then the pandemic hit, and everything went online. First thing I did was sign up for a certificate in UX/UI design and set the goal of completing it. I did!
During that time - here’s a part relevant to you - I occasionally applied to jobs where I was qualified. You never know why you’re rejected, but I did come to believe that I was getting screened out. So in 2021-2022, I finished those two courses plus one more, straight As. I got my degree!
Anyways…I don’t think most peoplejudge or care if you have a degree in the day-to-day. I work at a top-ranked university and it doesn’t come up. (It would if I were doing research or something though, for sure.) people here appreciate my work. I appreciate being around incredible intellectual and pedagogical activity! I am happy being one of the people that is able to communicate that mission in plain language to regular people because I’m not a PhD.
The confidence that I have does not come from my degree, at all. It comes from my love of what I do and the experience I gained both succeeding and failing. And getting up again.
However…the reality is that as my hit rate showed in interviews, my lack of degree held me back in the AI screens. I am as sure of this as I can be. However, getting it made no other difference in my life but passing the screens. However…you’re not wrong. At that one barrier, it mattered.
I am really happy that at *52* years old, I completed the paperwork. I also loved being the weirdo mature student who just wanted to be there talking about gothic literature again. Who gets to spend hours taking about Edgar Allen Poe in regular life??? No one. It was so much fun.
With you, the way you were treated as a kid is shameful on others. You’re still carrying that for them. It makes me so sad. Book smart is fun, but it doesn’t make a good person. If you’d been correctly identified for your strengths, you’d have learned that in university by watching bone-headed peers get degrees. But you didn’t, and it sounds like you’re a bit stuck.
I would try to release the shame. Then decide what you do want rather than focusing on what you didn’t have a chance to get.
P.S. I think your accomplishments are amazing.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:34 AM on December 31, 2023 [22 favorites]
So here’s my degree story. I arrived at university with PTSD for all the reasons families don’t talk about, and thanks to those issues I also made choices that resulted in being raped (that and the perpetrators of course.) After struggling for several years, I dropped out 2 required courses short of an honours (with pretty spotty grades, with extra courses, and I could have taken the non-honours degree..) Then I got married and transferred those credits over to a local university, and dropped out again, not the proper way, in 1996, having completed 3 more courses but still 2 required courses short (This new degree was a bilingual one so I added a new language requirement.)
I did some continuing ed classes a bit randomly- programming, adult education, paralegal, editing. Those classes helped me get over the issues I’d developed about university although they weren’t “real” classes.
I had a 3-year stint in non-profit, promoted twice, and a 18-year career in media including heading up a large magazine website. Did marketing, switched to martial arts. Then the pandemic hit, and everything went online. First thing I did was sign up for a certificate in UX/UI design and set the goal of completing it. I did!
During that time - here’s a part relevant to you - I occasionally applied to jobs where I was qualified. You never know why you’re rejected, but I did come to believe that I was getting screened out. So in 2021-2022, I finished those two courses plus one more, straight As. I got my degree!
Anyways…I don’t think most peoplejudge or care if you have a degree in the day-to-day. I work at a top-ranked university and it doesn’t come up. (It would if I were doing research or something though, for sure.) people here appreciate my work. I appreciate being around incredible intellectual and pedagogical activity! I am happy being one of the people that is able to communicate that mission in plain language to regular people because I’m not a PhD.
The confidence that I have does not come from my degree, at all. It comes from my love of what I do and the experience I gained both succeeding and failing. And getting up again.
However…the reality is that as my hit rate showed in interviews, my lack of degree held me back in the AI screens. I am as sure of this as I can be. However, getting it made no other difference in my life but passing the screens. However…you’re not wrong. At that one barrier, it mattered.
I am really happy that at *52* years old, I completed the paperwork. I also loved being the weirdo mature student who just wanted to be there talking about gothic literature again. Who gets to spend hours taking about Edgar Allen Poe in regular life??? No one. It was so much fun.
With you, the way you were treated as a kid is shameful on others. You’re still carrying that for them. It makes me so sad. Book smart is fun, but it doesn’t make a good person. If you’d been correctly identified for your strengths, you’d have learned that in university by watching bone-headed peers get degrees. But you didn’t, and it sounds like you’re a bit stuck.
I would try to release the shame. Then decide what you do want rather than focusing on what you didn’t have a chance to get.
P.S. I think your accomplishments are amazing.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:34 AM on December 31, 2023 [22 favorites]
Intelligence and education (especially formal education) are not the same thing. You don't have advanced formal education. That has absolutely no bearing on whether you're intelligent or not. I think that's what your therapist is trying to help you separate out.
We often, especially in workplaces, use formal education as a stand-in for intelligence, but they're not the same thing. And I suspect a lot of workplaces use a college degree as a stand-in for "willing to put up with a lot of bureaucratic bullshit and still meet deadlines," not even as a way of deeming a candidate "intelligent."
It might help to stop thinking of a degree of any sort as a stamp of approval of your intelligence and more just as a pre-requisite for certain jobs (which is really mostly what it is). What do you actually want to do? Is a degree actually required for that? If not, there's no reason to hold yourself hostage to the idea that having a degree is better than not having one.
College can also be a way to explore subjects in an environment that supports and challenges you, and if you want to pursue it for that, that's great, too. But it doesn't sound like that's quite where this issue is for you right now.
posted by lapis at 11:08 AM on December 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
We often, especially in workplaces, use formal education as a stand-in for intelligence, but they're not the same thing. And I suspect a lot of workplaces use a college degree as a stand-in for "willing to put up with a lot of bureaucratic bullshit and still meet deadlines," not even as a way of deeming a candidate "intelligent."
It might help to stop thinking of a degree of any sort as a stamp of approval of your intelligence and more just as a pre-requisite for certain jobs (which is really mostly what it is). What do you actually want to do? Is a degree actually required for that? If not, there's no reason to hold yourself hostage to the idea that having a degree is better than not having one.
College can also be a way to explore subjects in an environment that supports and challenges you, and if you want to pursue it for that, that's great, too. But it doesn't sound like that's quite where this issue is for you right now.
posted by lapis at 11:08 AM on December 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
There's no reason you couldn't get a degree now, but...I'm going to be honest with you, I don't think even getting a degree will help you feel less inferior until you deal with what is obviously deep and prolonged childhood trauma from the cruelty and judgment you suffered for years. (And just skimming back through your question history, it wasn't only about being "retarded.") You could get a Ph.D. from Harvard and your lizard brain could still be whispering in your ear that you're not good enough. Please get some therapy, at the same time as going back to school if you want.
posted by praemunire at 11:24 AM on December 31, 2023 [27 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 11:24 AM on December 31, 2023 [27 favorites]
If I don't have a degree, I might as well be "retarded," since nobody will ever acknowledge or accept me as intelligent, and I will always be inferior to those with a degree.
This is just emphatically untrue. Nobody is thinking this. Intelligence is so much more than a degree, and honestly, most people just don’t care enough to judge you this harshly for it? You’ve held down various jobs, published a book, clearly can write well, and did this all despite undiagnosed and seemingly untreated autism that held you back in school as you were mocked and ridiculed by those who were supposed to look out for you. You are fine. You have done so, so well.
Get a degree or don’t, whatever, but tying your self worth into it and assuming you’ll never be treated as intelligent or successful is just blatantly untrue. Most people I know who don’t have a degree have actually been more successful than those who have gotten one. The trades are awesome and so important. College is…. really expensive and doesn’t always open up the paths you think it will.
Challenge these lies that you’re telling yourself. You are the only one judging yourself here. I’m sure it’s a trauma response, and hard to let go of to put it lightly, but you absolutely must challenge these negative thoughts. They are not true. These are lies left over from a traumatic school experience. The world did you a disservice and the sooner you can tell the lies you were taught to fuck off, the better you’ll be.
posted by Amy93 at 11:26 AM on December 31, 2023 [13 favorites]
This is just emphatically untrue. Nobody is thinking this. Intelligence is so much more than a degree, and honestly, most people just don’t care enough to judge you this harshly for it? You’ve held down various jobs, published a book, clearly can write well, and did this all despite undiagnosed and seemingly untreated autism that held you back in school as you were mocked and ridiculed by those who were supposed to look out for you. You are fine. You have done so, so well.
Get a degree or don’t, whatever, but tying your self worth into it and assuming you’ll never be treated as intelligent or successful is just blatantly untrue. Most people I know who don’t have a degree have actually been more successful than those who have gotten one. The trades are awesome and so important. College is…. really expensive and doesn’t always open up the paths you think it will.
Challenge these lies that you’re telling yourself. You are the only one judging yourself here. I’m sure it’s a trauma response, and hard to let go of to put it lightly, but you absolutely must challenge these negative thoughts. They are not true. These are lies left over from a traumatic school experience. The world did you a disservice and the sooner you can tell the lies you were taught to fuck off, the better you’ll be.
posted by Amy93 at 11:26 AM on December 31, 2023 [13 favorites]
My dad finished highschool in a rural community that probably would have graduated anyone once they'd gotten old enough, then nothing more. He too had a CDL, but none of the rest of that you list. He was a white cishet English-speaking man in the US, no particular intellectual challenges, and hadn't been mistreated in childhood as far as I ever knew, nor burdened by unrecognized conditions or anything like that. And I'm not going to tell you he was brilliant "despite" his lack of a degree. He was clever about some things, and could be a delightful person to talk to, but nobody would have described him as an intellectual. I'd say I'm solidly confident that he could have completed some postsecondary degree somewhere, but he actually took a couple of runs at that idea and never managed it for one reason or another, so. No degree, the point is. No unappreciated genius, either. Still an entirely worthy human being. Just like he continued to be as he lost cognitive ability due to chemotherapy and organ failures. Just as he would have been if he'd always been at that intellectual level.
There's a reason "retarded" is now correctly recognized as a slur. I'm very sorry it and similar words were used against you and have gotten lodged in your mind in such prominent positions that you so easily reach for them to bludgeon yourself with still. I'm guessing that you came up with a totally different story about my dad, one that celebrated his strengths and recognized that his lack of postsecondary degrees was just one way amongst many that he could be described. I sincerely doubt that you have the kind of scorn for him that you do for yourself. How you get from where you are to having the reflexive compassion that you probably do for everyone else who doesn't hold specific degrees, I don't know, but I think it probably starts in dismantling this idea that you're talking about universal truths. Nobody is less-than just because they don't have or couldn't get a degree, and that includes you.
posted by teremala at 11:49 AM on December 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
There's a reason "retarded" is now correctly recognized as a slur. I'm very sorry it and similar words were used against you and have gotten lodged in your mind in such prominent positions that you so easily reach for them to bludgeon yourself with still. I'm guessing that you came up with a totally different story about my dad, one that celebrated his strengths and recognized that his lack of postsecondary degrees was just one way amongst many that he could be described. I sincerely doubt that you have the kind of scorn for him that you do for yourself. How you get from where you are to having the reflexive compassion that you probably do for everyone else who doesn't hold specific degrees, I don't know, but I think it probably starts in dismantling this idea that you're talking about universal truths. Nobody is less-than just because they don't have or couldn't get a degree, and that includes you.
posted by teremala at 11:49 AM on December 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
I hate to say this, but the people who think you are retarded without a degree will think you are retard with one. They are the kind of people who are looking for a way to write other people off, and will change the rejection criteria as often as necessary to exclude you.
That's on them, not you. They are assholes and there are a lot of them out there. They do it to everyone they can, by finding some difference between them and other people and using that as a grounds to reject other people. If they are still doing the superior and disdainful clique thing, and promoting their friends and giving back handed compliments, and getting the glazed look or cutting you off short when you talk, you are looking for approval and support from mean people who only support people who are enough like them, that supporting them is self serving behavior and not prosocial at all.
If your lack of a university diploma is keeping you from promotions because your place of work and the companies where you apply to work use it as a screening criterion, it doesn't mean that the university education is valuable. It just means they have found a screening criterion which can't be challenged as discriminatory. Those companies would probably happily exclude applicants by zip code, or skin color, or accent instead if they could get away with it.
And of course there are a ton of people out there who have cheated to get their university diploma - so much so that cheating is probably the norm by now. Maybe it's not as bad as some countries where they regularly bring in busloads of imposters to take exams for the students, but there are enough people out there who got their diplomas without writing their own papers and who got enough of the test answers in advance that a huge number of the people who are getting the career benefits of a university diploma never earned it. Some of them apply for jobs listing degrees from Rimforth College or the University of Paarberg (non-existent schools), or get their degree from a diploma mill that graduates everyone who pays the full tuition. So a university diploma is very often used to get a rubber stamp without it saying anything about how smart or capable the person with the diploma is.
You might want to read about the Imperial Exam system in Ancient China. Starting sometime during the Sui Dynasty before 618CE, if you wanted a good government job as a bureaucrat you needed to pass exams. It was merit based when it started. But the system lasted so long that after a few centuries you were studying archaic poetry in order to get a job doing administration. Our education system is well on its way in the same direction. You can tell by the enormous number of people going into debt to get the credentials for jobs they will never achieve.
If you are stuck with considering yourself retarded, because that identity is too firmly entrenched to shake off, then try to extend your definition of retarded. Retarded means delayed or slowed. Well, yes that is or was true of you. You didn't speak or read early. But by now, in terms of academic and intellectual abilities, having been retarded as a small child probably isn't making any difference to your ability to pass university courses. You might have to use some different strategies to pass the courses, but the chief barrier for you right now is financial, not intellectual.
How important is it that you got off to a delayed start? Many kids start school late because of where they live or a family situation and catch up. Many kids even do better in school if they don't try to teach them to read until they are older, such as grade three. If they wait to start the kids on academics until they are academically ready for literacy, they don't struggle and don't end up with anxiety or feeling stupid. Your having had to wait until you were older than other kids did to develop certain skills didn't make it impossible for you to catch up or even surpass them. It's not a long term advantage to be precocious, and if you talk to Former Gifted Children many of them consider it to be a life challenging handicap.
But you now have the recurring pain of feeling inadequate, drilled relentlessly into you by people who didn't have the time, insight or compassion to communicate effectively and kindly, or to find your strengths. You've got a lot of academic strengths, yes. Only you had some really lousy teachers and some really ethically challenged peers who got you off to a bad start.
Okay, can some one be retarded and beautiful? You know the trope of the beautiful dumb blond? Yes, definitely. Can someone be retarded and kind? Yes. Retarded and diligent? Yes. Retarded and motivated? Retarded and useful? Retarded and loved? Yes, Yes, Yes and Yes. If you can't get away from the label retarded, then see if you can adjust your self definition to be the Former Developmentally Delayed clever person, and the Former Developmentally Delayed person with extremely good insight and the intellectual who was diagnosed as retarded as a child who writes books, and the former kid was sometimes really dumb when they were a kid, because you know, all kids start off dumb, as that's an inescapable feature of being a kid.
You're in the same situation as the Formerly Gifted Children who got a warped self image because other people defined them in academic terms, which is now leaving them miserable and struggling with their self image and frustrated with relentlessly recurring feelings of failure. The direction to go is to build on the old definition and build in realistic directions. You can't let go of the label retarded? Yeah that's HARD. That is probably your primary handicap right now - the self esteem damage you took where you internalized the label retarded. But not your brains. You're smart enough to have learned how to do academics in an environment that was bad for you, and smart enough to have gotten some post secondary education despite becoming homeless right out of the gate. You did all that while carrying an agonizing burden of inadequacy.
I don't think most people would have been smart enough to go as far as you have already gone, if they had been treated the way you were.
posted by Jane the Brown at 11:53 AM on December 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
That's on them, not you. They are assholes and there are a lot of them out there. They do it to everyone they can, by finding some difference between them and other people and using that as a grounds to reject other people. If they are still doing the superior and disdainful clique thing, and promoting their friends and giving back handed compliments, and getting the glazed look or cutting you off short when you talk, you are looking for approval and support from mean people who only support people who are enough like them, that supporting them is self serving behavior and not prosocial at all.
If your lack of a university diploma is keeping you from promotions because your place of work and the companies where you apply to work use it as a screening criterion, it doesn't mean that the university education is valuable. It just means they have found a screening criterion which can't be challenged as discriminatory. Those companies would probably happily exclude applicants by zip code, or skin color, or accent instead if they could get away with it.
And of course there are a ton of people out there who have cheated to get their university diploma - so much so that cheating is probably the norm by now. Maybe it's not as bad as some countries where they regularly bring in busloads of imposters to take exams for the students, but there are enough people out there who got their diplomas without writing their own papers and who got enough of the test answers in advance that a huge number of the people who are getting the career benefits of a university diploma never earned it. Some of them apply for jobs listing degrees from Rimforth College or the University of Paarberg (non-existent schools), or get their degree from a diploma mill that graduates everyone who pays the full tuition. So a university diploma is very often used to get a rubber stamp without it saying anything about how smart or capable the person with the diploma is.
You might want to read about the Imperial Exam system in Ancient China. Starting sometime during the Sui Dynasty before 618CE, if you wanted a good government job as a bureaucrat you needed to pass exams. It was merit based when it started. But the system lasted so long that after a few centuries you were studying archaic poetry in order to get a job doing administration. Our education system is well on its way in the same direction. You can tell by the enormous number of people going into debt to get the credentials for jobs they will never achieve.
If you are stuck with considering yourself retarded, because that identity is too firmly entrenched to shake off, then try to extend your definition of retarded. Retarded means delayed or slowed. Well, yes that is or was true of you. You didn't speak or read early. But by now, in terms of academic and intellectual abilities, having been retarded as a small child probably isn't making any difference to your ability to pass university courses. You might have to use some different strategies to pass the courses, but the chief barrier for you right now is financial, not intellectual.
How important is it that you got off to a delayed start? Many kids start school late because of where they live or a family situation and catch up. Many kids even do better in school if they don't try to teach them to read until they are older, such as grade three. If they wait to start the kids on academics until they are academically ready for literacy, they don't struggle and don't end up with anxiety or feeling stupid. Your having had to wait until you were older than other kids did to develop certain skills didn't make it impossible for you to catch up or even surpass them. It's not a long term advantage to be precocious, and if you talk to Former Gifted Children many of them consider it to be a life challenging handicap.
But you now have the recurring pain of feeling inadequate, drilled relentlessly into you by people who didn't have the time, insight or compassion to communicate effectively and kindly, or to find your strengths. You've got a lot of academic strengths, yes. Only you had some really lousy teachers and some really ethically challenged peers who got you off to a bad start.
Okay, can some one be retarded and beautiful? You know the trope of the beautiful dumb blond? Yes, definitely. Can someone be retarded and kind? Yes. Retarded and diligent? Yes. Retarded and motivated? Retarded and useful? Retarded and loved? Yes, Yes, Yes and Yes. If you can't get away from the label retarded, then see if you can adjust your self definition to be the Former Developmentally Delayed clever person, and the Former Developmentally Delayed person with extremely good insight and the intellectual who was diagnosed as retarded as a child who writes books, and the former kid was sometimes really dumb when they were a kid, because you know, all kids start off dumb, as that's an inescapable feature of being a kid.
You're in the same situation as the Formerly Gifted Children who got a warped self image because other people defined them in academic terms, which is now leaving them miserable and struggling with their self image and frustrated with relentlessly recurring feelings of failure. The direction to go is to build on the old definition and build in realistic directions. You can't let go of the label retarded? Yeah that's HARD. That is probably your primary handicap right now - the self esteem damage you took where you internalized the label retarded. But not your brains. You're smart enough to have learned how to do academics in an environment that was bad for you, and smart enough to have gotten some post secondary education despite becoming homeless right out of the gate. You did all that while carrying an agonizing burden of inadequacy.
I don't think most people would have been smart enough to go as far as you have already gone, if they had been treated the way you were.
posted by Jane the Brown at 11:53 AM on December 31, 2023 [4 favorites]
- I know what the people saying mean when they say you don't need a college degree, but I also remember not having one and how it seemed all the jobs required it.
I don't think I've ever actually been required to have a college degree in any of the jobs I've actually held since I graduated. I believe employers with a strong focus on DEI are slowly moving away from requiring degrees because degrees are designed to give people of a certain socioeconomic status a certificate. Skills are different, skills and ability to gain those skills are what employers actually need.
- I had a friend when I was a teenager who told me that she looked at me and I was pretty. And that she figured since we look pretty similar, she must be pretty, too. Your friends all have college degrees and they want to spend time with you. The parallel is that you must be capable of the work involved in a college degree.
- I spent a lot of time around grad students for a while. Do you know what's really really common among grad students? Imposter syndrome. Even without being told cruel things throughout their childhood, they believe they don't really belong in grad school. What's interesting to me is that per the article, imposter syndrome is more common among women and minorities, which makes sense to me because universities support existing power dynamics. I feel like there's a case to be made that universities are about supporting existing power dynamics but I can't name the logic there. Anyway, here's the bit on imposter syndrome that's relevant to your context:
If you had to put a voice of someone you know to it, other than yourself, who would it be? I don't know if it's CBT or DBT or what, but there's some sort of training thing that's supposed to help address this sort of negative self-talk that you can learn in therapy.
posted by aniola at 12:01 PM on December 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't think I've ever actually been required to have a college degree in any of the jobs I've actually held since I graduated. I believe employers with a strong focus on DEI are slowly moving away from requiring degrees because degrees are designed to give people of a certain socioeconomic status a certificate. Skills are different, skills and ability to gain those skills are what employers actually need.
- I had a friend when I was a teenager who told me that she looked at me and I was pretty. And that she figured since we look pretty similar, she must be pretty, too. Your friends all have college degrees and they want to spend time with you. The parallel is that you must be capable of the work involved in a college degree.
- I spent a lot of time around grad students for a while. Do you know what's really really common among grad students? Imposter syndrome. Even without being told cruel things throughout their childhood, they believe they don't really belong in grad school. What's interesting to me is that per the article, imposter syndrome is more common among women and minorities, which makes sense to me because universities support existing power dynamics. I feel like there's a case to be made that universities are about supporting existing power dynamics but I can't name the logic there. Anyway, here's the bit on imposter syndrome that's relevant to your context:
Overcoming imposter syndrome involves changing a person's mindset about their own abilities. Imposters feel like they don’t belong, so acknowledging their expertise and accomplishments is key, as is reminding themselves that they earned their place in their academic or professional environment.Often I think, "Wow, look at me, completely uneducated; I really proved I am not retarded, didn't I?!" with a mental eye-roll.
People should stay focused on measuring their own achievements, instead of comparing themselves to others.
If you had to put a voice of someone you know to it, other than yourself, who would it be? I don't know if it's CBT or DBT or what, but there's some sort of training thing that's supposed to help address this sort of negative self-talk that you can learn in therapy.
posted by aniola at 12:01 PM on December 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Oh also it's really really important to acknowledge that there are people who are actually not "intelligent" in this world and I think it's helpful to realize there are more parts to a person than a certain type of intelligence.
Everyone - even people who actually aren't smart by the colloquial definition - is valuable and worthy of love.
posted by aniola at 12:06 PM on December 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
Everyone - even people who actually aren't smart by the colloquial definition - is valuable and worthy of love.
posted by aniola at 12:06 PM on December 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
Anyone who considers anyone else, including people who have been diagnosed with intellectual disabilities, to be a "r*tard" or "r*tarded" is a shitty human being at worst and super immature at best.
posted by smorgasbord at 12:15 PM on December 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by smorgasbord at 12:15 PM on December 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
A Bachelor's degree is not a sign of intelligence by any mean nor is even a PhD: lots of dumb people out there with a lot of letters behind their name. I think Gen Z and Gen Alpha are getting wise to the scam that is higher ed in the United States* and realizing there are better, cheaper, "smarter" alternatives. Good for them!
I have smart friends with and without degrees. For those who earned them later in life, a big motivation was the social pressure that they then internalized. However, only once they earned their BA/BS, MA/MS, etc. could they release themselves from that pressure and realize it was all baloney. They don't regret their degrees but they regret the time they spent feeling lesser-than for not having had one. I agree with the people above who have both stated a) a college degree is not a sign of intelligence and b) why not work on a Bachelor's because it is important to you. It's OK to want it so why not go for it?! We know you are smart and accomplished but only you can decide what is true success for you.
*I am a teacher with multiple degrees and who studied in three countries; education is my life and I love learning. However, higher education the way it is right now is an exploitation of both students and instructors. I hope it can change one day!
posted by smorgasbord at 12:21 PM on December 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
I have smart friends with and without degrees. For those who earned them later in life, a big motivation was the social pressure that they then internalized. However, only once they earned their BA/BS, MA/MS, etc. could they release themselves from that pressure and realize it was all baloney. They don't regret their degrees but they regret the time they spent feeling lesser-than for not having had one. I agree with the people above who have both stated a) a college degree is not a sign of intelligence and b) why not work on a Bachelor's because it is important to you. It's OK to want it so why not go for it?! We know you are smart and accomplished but only you can decide what is true success for you.
*I am a teacher with multiple degrees and who studied in three countries; education is my life and I love learning. However, higher education the way it is right now is an exploitation of both students and instructors. I hope it can change one day!
posted by smorgasbord at 12:21 PM on December 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
I come from a highly academic family. We have degrees coming out our ears -- my father leading the league with a double PhD in Mechanical Engineering and Nuclear Physics. I, with my pitiful Bachelors, will never measure up.
So I do practical things instead. I respect their achievements, but I'd much rather be doing something concrete and direct. Academia can be very airy.
If I am so smart, why does it matter if I have a degree?
I realize you're talking about self image, but I'm a practical kind of person so ... unfortunately there are many careers that are closed to you without that piece of paper, and I suspect those careers could be very rewarding for you. I think there is a real opportunity cost to you here, and a very real limit to what society will let you participate in. It sucks, but there it is.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:36 PM on December 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
So I do practical things instead. I respect their achievements, but I'd much rather be doing something concrete and direct. Academia can be very airy.
If I am so smart, why does it matter if I have a degree?
I realize you're talking about self image, but I'm a practical kind of person so ... unfortunately there are many careers that are closed to you without that piece of paper, and I suspect those careers could be very rewarding for you. I think there is a real opportunity cost to you here, and a very real limit to what society will let you participate in. It sucks, but there it is.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 12:36 PM on December 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
(Can I gently request...I don't blame OP at all for repeating the language that was used against them, but if it would be better if we didn't use that word without some qualification. As slurs go, it's up there.)
posted by praemunire at 1:06 PM on December 31, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 1:06 PM on December 31, 2023 [11 favorites]
You've been struggling with valorizing a degree for a long time. Is this about more than a university degree? Or does the degree have extra symbolic meaning to you because of the awful ways your teachers failed you?
Try this experiment, I find it real helpful. Imagine your childhood self as a separate person for a moment. This child has their whole life ahead of them. You're an adult, with your many years of experience. Have a conversation with your childhood self. Be the older mentor you needed for this set of experiences. Give your childhood self what they need to know in order to make it through upcoming childhood ordeals as a happy healthy adult.
posted by aniola at 1:21 PM on December 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Try this experiment, I find it real helpful. Imagine your childhood self as a separate person for a moment. This child has their whole life ahead of them. You're an adult, with your many years of experience. Have a conversation with your childhood self. Be the older mentor you needed for this set of experiences. Give your childhood self what they need to know in order to make it through upcoming childhood ordeals as a happy healthy adult.
posted by aniola at 1:21 PM on December 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
You sound like you're thriving despite a really traumatic childhood which is a huge thing that lots and lots of people do not manage to do. You also saved yourself quite a lot of student debt. If you want the degree go get it, but frankly I have a degree and still feel kind of bad about it (I wish I had a higher degree, a more respected subject, a more prestigious school, or had skipped the degree and bought a house instead back when houses were cheap in my city, etc etc.). It's not necessarily going to be a huge source of self-esteem. But if it feels like you'll feel different about it, then by all means, go get it as an adult student!
posted by nouvelle-personne at 1:46 PM on December 31, 2023
posted by nouvelle-personne at 1:46 PM on December 31, 2023
I have a friend who is about 70 years old. When she was young (maybe 5 years old?) there was a terrible car crash in which her parents were both killed and she suffered a traumatic brain injury. Following that, she was given into the care of an abusive relative with strict religious ideas about whether women should be educated.
Quite understandably, with no support, a traumatic history, and likely lingering effects from brain injury she never did well in school, barely finishing high school and not going any further.
As an adult, however, she eventually discovered an unfulfilled hunger for learning. She has learned a second language. Reads widely and constantly. She has a daily routine that includes time to spend on Khan Academy re-learning (or more likely learning for the first time) grade school math that she has managed to live her life without. Sometimes she asks me to help her when she gets stuck but mostly she does these things on her own. And she does them while being the center of a social community that she has gathered around her, running her own small business, and chopping the firewood she uses to heat her house.
I promise you, I am a hundred times more impressed by her commitment to learning than I ever have been by someone's degreed credentials.
Some people suck and you won't be able to convince them of your worth no matter what you do. Forget about them and figure out your own criteria for success, then work to meet them to the extent that you can.
posted by Nerd of the North at 2:09 PM on December 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
Quite understandably, with no support, a traumatic history, and likely lingering effects from brain injury she never did well in school, barely finishing high school and not going any further.
As an adult, however, she eventually discovered an unfulfilled hunger for learning. She has learned a second language. Reads widely and constantly. She has a daily routine that includes time to spend on Khan Academy re-learning (or more likely learning for the first time) grade school math that she has managed to live her life without. Sometimes she asks me to help her when she gets stuck but mostly she does these things on her own. And she does them while being the center of a social community that she has gathered around her, running her own small business, and chopping the firewood she uses to heat her house.
I promise you, I am a hundred times more impressed by her commitment to learning than I ever have been by someone's degreed credentials.
Some people suck and you won't be able to convince them of your worth no matter what you do. Forget about them and figure out your own criteria for success, then work to meet them to the extent that you can.
posted by Nerd of the North at 2:09 PM on December 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
Thermometers have got degrees, and you know where you can shove them.
posted by essexjan at 2:33 PM on December 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by essexjan at 2:33 PM on December 31, 2023 [5 favorites]
I had a longer post of advice but deleted it because it doesn’t matter; in the end it’s very simple: intelligence is overrated as a life virtue and some of the biggest pieces of shit I’ve ever met in my life have been very, very smart.
Cultivate wisdom instead.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 3:14 PM on December 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
Cultivate wisdom instead.
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 3:14 PM on December 31, 2023 [9 favorites]
Your prior experiences with education seems like it can be summed up by the following quote:
"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."
For your entire time in formal education (and even outside it) you've been told that the only thing of importance is how well you climb trees. By now, you've internalized this message. This message is flat out wrong and is quite hurtful to those whose skills lay outside tree climbing. In this internet stranger's opinion you will continue to grapple with this "inferiority complex" until you realize that all formal education is is a measure of how well someone is able to climb trees. In addition, some poor tree climbers are poor tree climbers, because they lacked the privilege to devote themselves entirely to tree climbing. Tree climbing lessons are expensive and it can be significantly harder to get good at the sport without a tree at home to practice on.
FWIW I think you may benefit from getting assessed for learning disabilities. The report generated from this process would be used to make sure you get appropriate accommodations for college coursework should you choose to go that route. But even if you decide not to go back to school, you might find the report helpful, because it will provide some answers to how you learn best.
posted by oceano at 3:16 PM on December 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
"Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid."
For your entire time in formal education (and even outside it) you've been told that the only thing of importance is how well you climb trees. By now, you've internalized this message. This message is flat out wrong and is quite hurtful to those whose skills lay outside tree climbing. In this internet stranger's opinion you will continue to grapple with this "inferiority complex" until you realize that all formal education is is a measure of how well someone is able to climb trees. In addition, some poor tree climbers are poor tree climbers, because they lacked the privilege to devote themselves entirely to tree climbing. Tree climbing lessons are expensive and it can be significantly harder to get good at the sport without a tree at home to practice on.
FWIW I think you may benefit from getting assessed for learning disabilities. The report generated from this process would be used to make sure you get appropriate accommodations for college coursework should you choose to go that route. But even if you decide not to go back to school, you might find the report helpful, because it will provide some answers to how you learn best.
posted by oceano at 3:16 PM on December 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
Winston Churchill did not have a degree.
What he had was curiosity and he became well read on his own.
Bill Gates does not have a degree. Neither did Steve Jobs. Though he famously audited some arts classes after dropping out. Later claiming the calligraphy helped a lot to set the various fonts
Mark Zuckerberg also dropped out of college.
Some professions require a degree. Nothing you can do about that
Some employers use it as a screening tool and thats too bad.
You could Audit a class that interests you. Doesn't have to be practical or lead to anything.
Just for the hell of it.
posted by yyz at 3:23 PM on December 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
What he had was curiosity and he became well read on his own.
Bill Gates does not have a degree. Neither did Steve Jobs. Though he famously audited some arts classes after dropping out. Later claiming the calligraphy helped a lot to set the various fonts
Mark Zuckerberg also dropped out of college.
Some professions require a degree. Nothing you can do about that
Some employers use it as a screening tool and thats too bad.
You could Audit a class that interests you. Doesn't have to be practical or lead to anything.
Just for the hell of it.
posted by yyz at 3:23 PM on December 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
>If I am so smart, why does it matter if I have a degree? If a degree matters, how can I be smart without one?
It doesn’t in any way that should mean anything, but it is a barrier to jobs because of degree inflation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_inflation
https://www.vox.com/policy/23628627/degree-inflation-college-bacheors-stars-labor-worker-paper-ceiling
>Whatever I might think personally, this constant rejection for jobs and other opportunities confirms in my mind that I am "retarded."
I can completely see why you feel that way given credentialism and degree inflation.
Others have offered great insights and advice. I will just encourage you to pursue a degree, for yourself and any HR gatekeepers. Do it part time, and choose a school that offers GREAT accommodations for learners with unique needs.
Accommodations can mean anything from getting extra time for tests (if testing under time is an issue), to support for writing (which by the sounds of things you might not need), to getting note takers, if that’s what would help. The school should have solid formal policies around this and a well-funded student success centre.
If you want to update with your location, or ask another question for school recommendations, I’m certain you’ll get really helpful responses.
Do it, and prove to yourself you can.
posted by cotton dress sock at 3:27 PM on December 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
It doesn’t in any way that should mean anything, but it is a barrier to jobs because of degree inflation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_inflation
https://www.vox.com/policy/23628627/degree-inflation-college-bacheors-stars-labor-worker-paper-ceiling
>Whatever I might think personally, this constant rejection for jobs and other opportunities confirms in my mind that I am "retarded."
I can completely see why you feel that way given credentialism and degree inflation.
Others have offered great insights and advice. I will just encourage you to pursue a degree, for yourself and any HR gatekeepers. Do it part time, and choose a school that offers GREAT accommodations for learners with unique needs.
Accommodations can mean anything from getting extra time for tests (if testing under time is an issue), to support for writing (which by the sounds of things you might not need), to getting note takers, if that’s what would help. The school should have solid formal policies around this and a well-funded student success centre.
If you want to update with your location, or ask another question for school recommendations, I’m certain you’ll get really helpful responses.
Do it, and prove to yourself you can.
posted by cotton dress sock at 3:27 PM on December 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
I feel like Newlane University might be a good option for you.
posted by shadygrove at 3:37 PM on December 31, 2023
posted by shadygrove at 3:37 PM on December 31, 2023
I've sometimes felt this way about not having children, which is something that you can't change by slowly taking courses at community college. Almost all of my peers have had children, and it's regarded as a source of joy and the reason for being alive by most cultures. It's also something that some otherwise lovely people think less of you for and make comments to that effect. (One time a colleague whose company I really enjoyed said that until someone has kids she just doesn't think of them as a real person). Something that has helped me is, when I meet or read about an older person who didn't have children, I ask myself, "Do I think any less of Octavia Butler because she didn't have children? Do I think that my colleague Toni should spend her days filled with self-loathing or contempt, or that Virginia Woolf's life was a waste of time?" The answer, every time, is: no, of course not, that's a ridiculous and horrifying idea. And then I turn that answer back on myself and roll it around in the brain pan for a while. It's helped.
(Woolf's under-read Three Guineas, where she describes with white hot clarity the role of universities in reproducing warmongers, might also help.)
posted by happyfrog at 3:41 PM on December 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
(Woolf's under-read Three Guineas, where she describes with white hot clarity the role of universities in reproducing warmongers, might also help.)
posted by happyfrog at 3:41 PM on December 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
I know so many idiots with college degrees, some of whom are so stupid I really want to know who gave them these degrees and if bribery was involved. The law degree student who couldn't coherently write one sentence telling me where they lived, for example. I've seen PhD's who can't coherently write me one sentence. I have friends without degrees who are smarter than that, write better than that, and have more of their life shit together than that. Degrees don't mean you're smart, they can just mean you somehow got the money and jumped through all the hoops. You're probably smarter than me, technically speaking, I didn't get a word of what you do for work but it sounds program-y?
Literally the only reason one *has* to have a degree is that these days jobs will require degrees in certain specific majors in order to rule more candidates out of jobs. I have two bachelor's degrees and literally any clerical worker with or without one is just as equal to me as anyone else and it doesn't matter, even if one of my degree-less coworkers was told she wasn't getting the job because she didn't have the degree. (I note she didn't get the job because they were convinced the other applicant had more experience at what we did, she didn't.)
It sounds like your own personal issues aside, the issue is that you don't have a degree to put on your resume and thus people are being shitty about it. If it's THAT big of a job hamperer, then maybe you need to consider getting some degree in some alternative fashion that works for you. Looks like some people had suggestions for that.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:48 PM on December 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Literally the only reason one *has* to have a degree is that these days jobs will require degrees in certain specific majors in order to rule more candidates out of jobs. I have two bachelor's degrees and literally any clerical worker with or without one is just as equal to me as anyone else and it doesn't matter, even if one of my degree-less coworkers was told she wasn't getting the job because she didn't have the degree. (I note she didn't get the job because they were convinced the other applicant had more experience at what we did, she didn't.)
It sounds like your own personal issues aside, the issue is that you don't have a degree to put on your resume and thus people are being shitty about it. If it's THAT big of a job hamperer, then maybe you need to consider getting some degree in some alternative fashion that works for you. Looks like some people had suggestions for that.
posted by jenfullmoon at 3:48 PM on December 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Everyone I know and work with has a university degree.This is the most important sentence in the question. The people who you are worried might think of you as somehow 'lesser' have already demonstrably accepted you as one of their own - that's why they are your colleagues and your social circle.
posted by kickingtheground at 4:24 PM on December 31, 2023 [3 favorites]
Look, you've done a ton of things most people would find hard. You express yourself very well and I always enjoy your posts.
This whole thing about intelligence is such bullshit. People go on about other people's relative intelligence in a way that suggests they think they are just that much smarter than everyone else in the world, putting them in a position to judge. Don't listen to them.
You know what though, go back to college if you think you would enjoy it. You are probably more than able to succeed in an academic environment. You are already performing well among co-workers who have decrees. In some ways, getting a degree is easier than succeeding in the workforce. A college environment may be competitive, but they want you to do well in a different way than an employer does. If your job won't pay college tuition, find one that will, or find a college with cheap tuition. Use MIT's free resources or something. That won't get you a degree but it may help you feel you have tested the waters.
posted by BibiRose at 4:39 PM on December 31, 2023
This whole thing about intelligence is such bullshit. People go on about other people's relative intelligence in a way that suggests they think they are just that much smarter than everyone else in the world, putting them in a position to judge. Don't listen to them.
You know what though, go back to college if you think you would enjoy it. You are probably more than able to succeed in an academic environment. You are already performing well among co-workers who have decrees. In some ways, getting a degree is easier than succeeding in the workforce. A college environment may be competitive, but they want you to do well in a different way than an employer does. If your job won't pay college tuition, find one that will, or find a college with cheap tuition. Use MIT's free resources or something. That won't get you a degree but it may help you feel you have tested the waters.
posted by BibiRose at 4:39 PM on December 31, 2023
“You wouldn’t worry so much about what others think of you if you realized how seldom they do.” — Eleanor Roosevelt
The people you believe are judging so harshly… i suspect that at least one factor behind their supposed success is they haven’t invested so much time and energy in judging others, or themselves, so harshly; this undoubtedly frees them up for the pursuits which can contribute to their success. They’re not spending their days wondering who is or isn’t a “retard” because, not only is that extremely uncharitable towards their fellow human beings, but it’s an absolute waste of time, and the mental and psychic cost of doing that would make it very difficult to do much of anything else productive. I’m speculating, but reading this post and the previous one you wrote on pretty much the same topic, you’re hitting yourself with the “i don’t have a degree, etc.” hammer multiple times a minute, and you’re not even aware of it or how often, or how much that habit is holding you back.
Where are you choosing to put your energy, and is it serving you? Doesn’t the constant internal dialog about who’s smart/valuable (or not) , just get in the way of making forward in progress towards your goals?
Do you believe you don’t have the right to choose to look at things differently? Yes, it’s not like flipping a switch. It will be challenging and slow, just like it is for any person changing any habit. That you have the means to have a therapist means you’re already way ahead in terms of resources needed for doing this work. But it starts with a choice.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 5:06 PM on December 31, 2023
The people you believe are judging so harshly… i suspect that at least one factor behind their supposed success is they haven’t invested so much time and energy in judging others, or themselves, so harshly; this undoubtedly frees them up for the pursuits which can contribute to their success. They’re not spending their days wondering who is or isn’t a “retard” because, not only is that extremely uncharitable towards their fellow human beings, but it’s an absolute waste of time, and the mental and psychic cost of doing that would make it very difficult to do much of anything else productive. I’m speculating, but reading this post and the previous one you wrote on pretty much the same topic, you’re hitting yourself with the “i don’t have a degree, etc.” hammer multiple times a minute, and you’re not even aware of it or how often, or how much that habit is holding you back.
Where are you choosing to put your energy, and is it serving you? Doesn’t the constant internal dialog about who’s smart/valuable (or not) , just get in the way of making forward in progress towards your goals?
Do you believe you don’t have the right to choose to look at things differently? Yes, it’s not like flipping a switch. It will be challenging and slow, just like it is for any person changing any habit. That you have the means to have a therapist means you’re already way ahead in terms of resources needed for doing this work. But it starts with a choice.
posted by armoir from antproof case at 5:06 PM on December 31, 2023
Will a BA fill the hole that your award winning publication could not? Will a MA satisfy you or do you need something more? If you get a PhD, will that finally quiet the voice of those horrible memories?
This is not a problem about a degree. It is about trauma.
posted by munchingzombie at 5:10 PM on December 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
This is not a problem about a degree. It is about trauma.
posted by munchingzombie at 5:10 PM on December 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
Lately, it seems that the news is filled with companies placing less and less emphasis on having a degree: https://www.google.com/search?q=degree+requirements
posted by alexei at 5:39 PM on December 31, 2023
posted by alexei at 5:39 PM on December 31, 2023
Mod note: Note: Content warning added for R-word slur
posted by taz (staff) at 10:12 PM on December 31, 2023
posted by taz (staff) at 10:12 PM on December 31, 2023
Go back to school and ask about credit for prior learning experience and challenge credit. You might get as much as two years of credit. Then it’s just 15-20 courses. You can do it. Chip away.
You may also be able to do a masters. My friend got in at a major university for a masters based on about as much education and experience.
posted by shockpoppet at 10:48 PM on December 31, 2023
You may also be able to do a masters. My friend got in at a major university for a masters based on about as much education and experience.
posted by shockpoppet at 10:48 PM on December 31, 2023
My sister and I grew up in this kind of awful cold war or her attractiveness and prettiness vs my academic skills. It took us a long time to work through it and there are moments she is overwhelmed when I explain how much I admire her intelligence and skills.
But the easiest way to explain it is this - sure I was advanced at school and she couldn't read until the end of elementary school; she failed junior highschool and I got one of the highest scores in my school; she doesn't have a degree and in fact failed out of three while J have a PhD but...
She loves to read now, she ended up doing the final two years of highschool in one year plus two entry certificates for two different careers and one of those got her offered second year apprenticeships, and she also solidly earns over six figures and is tapped for executive roles and consulting, and further development at work.
While I'm an underpaid adjunct single mother.
both of us are happy. My sister is one of the smartest people I know and is incredibly good at people and wrangling projects. Her spelling still kinda sucks, and she doesn't do academic shit, but she runs multimillion dollar budgets while reinvigorating underperforming departments, doing pottery on the weekends and long hikes and travels the world. She is incredibly well put together and an amazing role model for my kid. I hate that she has ever or still sometimes feels inferior to me because I have a love and skill for the thing that gets good marks and skills.
Get a degree if you want. But my sister isn't in any way deficient for being 'too stupid' for degrees.
posted by geek anachronism at 1:12 AM on January 1 [4 favorites]
But the easiest way to explain it is this - sure I was advanced at school and she couldn't read until the end of elementary school; she failed junior highschool and I got one of the highest scores in my school; she doesn't have a degree and in fact failed out of three while J have a PhD but...
She loves to read now, she ended up doing the final two years of highschool in one year plus two entry certificates for two different careers and one of those got her offered second year apprenticeships, and she also solidly earns over six figures and is tapped for executive roles and consulting, and further development at work.
While I'm an underpaid adjunct single mother.
both of us are happy. My sister is one of the smartest people I know and is incredibly good at people and wrangling projects. Her spelling still kinda sucks, and she doesn't do academic shit, but she runs multimillion dollar budgets while reinvigorating underperforming departments, doing pottery on the weekends and long hikes and travels the world. She is incredibly well put together and an amazing role model for my kid. I hate that she has ever or still sometimes feels inferior to me because I have a love and skill for the thing that gets good marks and skills.
Get a degree if you want. But my sister isn't in any way deficient for being 'too stupid' for degrees.
posted by geek anachronism at 1:12 AM on January 1 [4 favorites]
The mighty oak grew slowly.
posted by flabdablet at 4:34 AM on January 1 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 4:34 AM on January 1 [1 favorite]
You come across as very intelligent. Also, considering the obstacles you had to face you must have been twice as smart to achieve what you have and that's very impressive.
Getting a degree requires jumping through hoops and there are plenty of people who find it hard despite their intelligence and creativity.
There are also many people who are good at jumping through hoops and end up with (sometimes impressive) degrees despite not being intellectually curious or creative or good at their jobs.
But you clearly know that.
Could it be your environment? Are you getting signals from bosses/peers/contacts at work that they would treat you more seriously if you had a degree or - just maybe - do you feel like you don't belong?
Personally, feeling respected and included at work matters to me so I would explore that a little bit.
If you think pursuing a degree would make it easier for you to get promotions/ feel respected at work, then I'd consider doing that, if it's feasible financially. Feeling respected and recognized at work is a valid psychological need and there's nothing wrong with admitting that to yourself.
Good luck.
posted by M. at 6:54 AM on January 1
Getting a degree requires jumping through hoops and there are plenty of people who find it hard despite their intelligence and creativity.
There are also many people who are good at jumping through hoops and end up with (sometimes impressive) degrees despite not being intellectually curious or creative or good at their jobs.
But you clearly know that.
Could it be your environment? Are you getting signals from bosses/peers/contacts at work that they would treat you more seriously if you had a degree or - just maybe - do you feel like you don't belong?
Personally, feeling respected and included at work matters to me so I would explore that a little bit.
If you think pursuing a degree would make it easier for you to get promotions/ feel respected at work, then I'd consider doing that, if it's feasible financially. Feeling respected and recognized at work is a valid psychological need and there's nothing wrong with admitting that to yourself.
Good luck.
posted by M. at 6:54 AM on January 1
If your therapist is not very concerned with this (it’s hard to tell from what you’ve said), I would first try deepening the discussions about the trauma of your educational and social experiences and making a plan to create some groundwork for healing, or if that doesn’t go productively, finding a new therapist with whom you can do this work. I say this, but I haven’t been able to myself, though my circumstances are different. Nevertheless, you (and I) deserve not to be profoundly affected by this trauma in (y)our everyday life. I very much wish you happiness and healing.
posted by lokta at 6:56 AM on January 1 [1 favorite]
posted by lokta at 6:56 AM on January 1 [1 favorite]
Hopefully you're convinced now that thoughtful people will not think any more or less of anyone based on academic degrees.
Another factor in your distress might be the role of college degrees in superficial social interactions. For the record, I hate smalltalk, so I approach it as an alien anthropologist. In the game of smalltalk, people ask questions to try and find commonalities: what do you do, where did you do your degree, what sports do you play, etc.
I think of these enthusiastic socializers as golden retrievers who give themselves points for each thing they find in common.
I bring this up because if you hate smalltalk and don't see the point of it, it can feel like a very unpleasant interrogation where intel is being gathered specifically for the purpose of judging you. (Which brings up all the childhood trauma of "why can't you be more like..." and "what will the neighbours think.")
The point is, you can reframe this as Golden Retrievers Playing a Game of Find the Shared Thing. In which case, you can develop ball-chucking skills to deflect and redirect : "oh, nowhere you've heard of. Any travel plans coming up? Oh, I've heard great things about that place. What will you do there?" Because honestly, they just really want you to ask the same questions back so they can brag about whatever it is they want to brag about.
posted by dum spiro spero at 12:07 PM on January 1
Another factor in your distress might be the role of college degrees in superficial social interactions. For the record, I hate smalltalk, so I approach it as an alien anthropologist. In the game of smalltalk, people ask questions to try and find commonalities: what do you do, where did you do your degree, what sports do you play, etc.
I think of these enthusiastic socializers as golden retrievers who give themselves points for each thing they find in common.
I bring this up because if you hate smalltalk and don't see the point of it, it can feel like a very unpleasant interrogation where intel is being gathered specifically for the purpose of judging you. (Which brings up all the childhood trauma of "why can't you be more like..." and "what will the neighbours think.")
The point is, you can reframe this as Golden Retrievers Playing a Game of Find the Shared Thing. In which case, you can develop ball-chucking skills to deflect and redirect : "oh, nowhere you've heard of. Any travel plans coming up? Oh, I've heard great things about that place. What will you do there?" Because honestly, they just really want you to ask the same questions back so they can brag about whatever it is they want to brag about.
posted by dum spiro spero at 12:07 PM on January 1
I don’t think a person needs a degree to have worth. But I went back to school to get a degree after struggling with a chip on my shoulder over this for quite a while. I really enjoyed learning, and I prioritized taking classes I enjoyed or that would lead me to taking classes I enjoyed. It is unfortunate, but I really enjoy being able to answer the question when people ask “where did you go to school”. A terrible question that I would never ask someone unless they were strongly hinting that they have school stories they want to tell! But now that I can say honestly that I “went to school” (they hardly ever ask what kind of degree, whew!) I can get past that conversational barrier without invoking self doubt! I’m sure there are other ways to achieve this, but getting the dumb degree worked for me.
posted by Secretariat at 12:46 PM on January 1 [1 favorite]
posted by Secretariat at 12:46 PM on January 1 [1 favorite]
But this is all anecdotal since employers, publishers, and society at large only care about my degree or lack thereof, not the size of my home library or the fact that I self-published a book. If I don't have a degree, I might as well be "retarded," since nobody will ever acknowledge or accept me as intelligent, and I will always be inferior to those with a degree.
This feels like very distorted thinking to me, and no wonder, considering how very badly you were treated by those around you because of your neurological differences! Reading that made me so sad, and I wish I could go back in time to whisk away young 8LeggedFriend and build an educational environment for you that was supportive and nurturing and sensitive to your brilliance and your capabilities.
I find it challenging to believe that I am intelligent and not "retarded" like my therapist thinks while simultaneously being rejected by employers, publishers, and everyone else as not good enough or qualified for anything intelligent. … Whatever I might think personally, this constant rejection for jobs and other opportunities confirms in my mind that I am "retarded."
I do not want to question your experience, but I wonder in how many instances you have actually been told that the reason for your rejection was that you lack a degree? Are you applying for jobs for which you have the required skills and knowledge, and being told that you are not being hired because you don’t have a degree? Are publishers telling you they won’t publish books by people without a degree? Or are you “reading between the lines” to assume that their rejections fall into a pattern that is habitual and familiar?
And saying you’re rejected by “everyone else” feels, again, like distorted thinking.
My qualifications: I have three degrees and I hand them out for a living!
At the most basic level, getting a Bachelor’s degree is largely a matter of showing up and turning stuff in.
The showing up and turning stuff in is easier for some folks and harder for others for too many reasons to name. For some folks it’s not possible during the traditional 18-24 age range, and they do succeed at it later.
Students have many opportunities to learn and grow as they are seeking their degrees, different students take advantage of those to varying extents. To me, this is what matters.
In the “real world” people don’t care very much about your majors or minors or grades or the names of the classes you took, they care about what you have learned, in class or out of class. And it seems like you have had a long life of learning. If there are people with degrees who care about your lack a degree and don’t care about your leaning, they aren’t smart people and probably you shouldn’t care what they think.
All that said, are you interested in the learning experiences that a college education would provide? If so, seeking a degree makes sense.
But I think for someone as smart as you, you will find getting a BA too easy to make you feel like it proves anything!
If you are confident that you absolutely do require the credential in able to access certain opportunities, that’s a good reason to seek out a degree program that you can move through quickly and cheaply.
But it won’t prove (to you or anyone else) that you are intelligent or worthy. That’s an entirely separate question.
posted by BrashTech at 1:05 PM on January 1 [2 favorites]
This feels like very distorted thinking to me, and no wonder, considering how very badly you were treated by those around you because of your neurological differences! Reading that made me so sad, and I wish I could go back in time to whisk away young 8LeggedFriend and build an educational environment for you that was supportive and nurturing and sensitive to your brilliance and your capabilities.
I find it challenging to believe that I am intelligent and not "retarded" like my therapist thinks while simultaneously being rejected by employers, publishers, and everyone else as not good enough or qualified for anything intelligent. … Whatever I might think personally, this constant rejection for jobs and other opportunities confirms in my mind that I am "retarded."
I do not want to question your experience, but I wonder in how many instances you have actually been told that the reason for your rejection was that you lack a degree? Are you applying for jobs for which you have the required skills and knowledge, and being told that you are not being hired because you don’t have a degree? Are publishers telling you they won’t publish books by people without a degree? Or are you “reading between the lines” to assume that their rejections fall into a pattern that is habitual and familiar?
And saying you’re rejected by “everyone else” feels, again, like distorted thinking.
My qualifications: I have three degrees and I hand them out for a living!
At the most basic level, getting a Bachelor’s degree is largely a matter of showing up and turning stuff in.
The showing up and turning stuff in is easier for some folks and harder for others for too many reasons to name. For some folks it’s not possible during the traditional 18-24 age range, and they do succeed at it later.
Students have many opportunities to learn and grow as they are seeking their degrees, different students take advantage of those to varying extents. To me, this is what matters.
In the “real world” people don’t care very much about your majors or minors or grades or the names of the classes you took, they care about what you have learned, in class or out of class. And it seems like you have had a long life of learning. If there are people with degrees who care about your lack a degree and don’t care about your leaning, they aren’t smart people and probably you shouldn’t care what they think.
All that said, are you interested in the learning experiences that a college education would provide? If so, seeking a degree makes sense.
But I think for someone as smart as you, you will find getting a BA too easy to make you feel like it proves anything!
If you are confident that you absolutely do require the credential in able to access certain opportunities, that’s a good reason to seek out a degree program that you can move through quickly and cheaply.
But it won’t prove (to you or anyone else) that you are intelligent or worthy. That’s an entirely separate question.
posted by BrashTech at 1:05 PM on January 1 [2 favorites]
You wrote a helluva lot better than a lot of people with degrees!
You mentioned that you don't read fiction. I wonder if reading fiction might give you a better understanding of other people and more of an awareness that multitudes of other people who might appear to be successful in ways that elude you really are not as together as you think. Fiction is also a great way to take a break.
posted by mareli at 4:21 PM on January 1
You mentioned that you don't read fiction. I wonder if reading fiction might give you a better understanding of other people and more of an awareness that multitudes of other people who might appear to be successful in ways that elude you really are not as together as you think. Fiction is also a great way to take a break.
posted by mareli at 4:21 PM on January 1
Having a published academic book is roughly equivalent to a doctoral dissertation. We could have a discussion about which is actually more of an accomplishment or represents a greater degree of learning - and definitely the doctoral dissertation would win out in some specific situations whereas the public academic book would win in others. Point is though: It's in the same general ballpark.
Having a published academic book definitely represents far more learning and accomplishment than a master's degree thesis. Honestly, many, many Master's theses are very thin. Probably 99.9% are not at all in the realm of publishable, even given a bunch of additional work put the topic into publishable format.
Point is, from the viewpoint of actual learning and accomplishment I think you can consider yourself to be well into the area of not just having the experience & knowledge equivalent of a bachelor's degree, but also somewhere well into the realm of graduate studies as well.
So I would ask two questions:
- Do you want to go to university for the sake of the degree - having that B.S. or M.S. or Ph.D. or whatever after your name? Having the title?
- Do you actually want to go to school now and learning things? Do you have a great interest in taking classes, challenging your knowledge by writing assigned research papers and taking tests, being on a schedule and agenda for your learning?
If you only want the title and being able to tell people you have a degree, I would work with your therapist and otherwise on your dysfunctional thinking in this regard. In short, I would just try to deal with the idea there is a "thing" out there, I don't have the "thing", I want the "thing" really badly, the fact that I don't have and can't have the "thing" makes it even more desirable to me. I would give a lot of thought to the idea that you are hyper-focused on the "thing" right now but in reality getting that thing is not going to make you any happier than you are right now.
You get the idea: Deal with it like a mental fixation and take steps in that direction.
Now on the other hand: Imagine yourself taking an actual university class: Sitting in class with other students, listening to the professor, reading the textbook, writing an essay, doing the daily assignments, preparing for a test on the last 5 chapters in the textbook, taking the test, sometimes getting a good grade and sometimes getting a bad grade, sometimes struggling with a really difficult and challenging class, other times sitting through an easy and rather boring class because it is required for your degree.
Does thinking about doing those actual things that are the daily grind of getting an actual academic degree fill you with joy, anticipation, and excitement?
If so, then you should get busy and take some of the recommendations in this thread for taking classes and completing a degree. Take one class at a time, take them via remote learning (has anyone mentioned Western Governor's University? My sister is around 50, already has two degrees, just enrolled in WGU, and is super excited about it - both from a learning and a career perspective). This is going to be a lot of work but you will probably enjoy a lot of it. And you can do it.
But if doing that does not literally fill your soul with joy - just forget about it. Work on the psychological angle of figuring out how to enjoy your actual academic accomplishments and learning without pining for something you don't have and don't need.
I will say, there is one middle road you can take to see which of these two buckets you fit into: Take one class - either online or in person, consider just auditing a class at a local college or university - and see how it goes. Was it fun? Did you look forward to attending and doing the work - maybe not every day, but most days?
If so, there is your answer. Continue taking more classes and go for the gusto.
On the other hand, if it was a miserable slog, there is the opposite answer. Just keep on doing what you're doing - researching and working on topics you are personally interested in, write up anything you feel you should, and let your interests take you wherever they will. Call yourself an "independent academic" - there is nothing at all wrong with that.
Good luck!
P.S. Have literally 5 college degrees, three of them graduate degrees. Degrees do NOT make you happy, I can personally vouch for that. They don't necessarily make you UNhappy, either but they are not automatically going to make you either happy or successful. If you're the person who actually enjoys all that learning and developing skills of that specific type, then great. You're one in probably a 100,000 or a million (and not necessarily in a good way . . . ) and following your muse in that direction isn't really hurting anything except maybe/definitely your pocketbook. But the degrees themselves - they don't bring joy or any great benefits in your later life.
posted by flug at 9:36 PM on January 1 [1 favorite]
Having a published academic book definitely represents far more learning and accomplishment than a master's degree thesis. Honestly, many, many Master's theses are very thin. Probably 99.9% are not at all in the realm of publishable, even given a bunch of additional work put the topic into publishable format.
Point is, from the viewpoint of actual learning and accomplishment I think you can consider yourself to be well into the area of not just having the experience & knowledge equivalent of a bachelor's degree, but also somewhere well into the realm of graduate studies as well.
So I would ask two questions:
- Do you want to go to university for the sake of the degree - having that B.S. or M.S. or Ph.D. or whatever after your name? Having the title?
- Do you actually want to go to school now and learning things? Do you have a great interest in taking classes, challenging your knowledge by writing assigned research papers and taking tests, being on a schedule and agenda for your learning?
If you only want the title and being able to tell people you have a degree, I would work with your therapist and otherwise on your dysfunctional thinking in this regard. In short, I would just try to deal with the idea there is a "thing" out there, I don't have the "thing", I want the "thing" really badly, the fact that I don't have and can't have the "thing" makes it even more desirable to me. I would give a lot of thought to the idea that you are hyper-focused on the "thing" right now but in reality getting that thing is not going to make you any happier than you are right now.
You get the idea: Deal with it like a mental fixation and take steps in that direction.
Now on the other hand: Imagine yourself taking an actual university class: Sitting in class with other students, listening to the professor, reading the textbook, writing an essay, doing the daily assignments, preparing for a test on the last 5 chapters in the textbook, taking the test, sometimes getting a good grade and sometimes getting a bad grade, sometimes struggling with a really difficult and challenging class, other times sitting through an easy and rather boring class because it is required for your degree.
Does thinking about doing those actual things that are the daily grind of getting an actual academic degree fill you with joy, anticipation, and excitement?
If so, then you should get busy and take some of the recommendations in this thread for taking classes and completing a degree. Take one class at a time, take them via remote learning (has anyone mentioned Western Governor's University? My sister is around 50, already has two degrees, just enrolled in WGU, and is super excited about it - both from a learning and a career perspective). This is going to be a lot of work but you will probably enjoy a lot of it. And you can do it.
But if doing that does not literally fill your soul with joy - just forget about it. Work on the psychological angle of figuring out how to enjoy your actual academic accomplishments and learning without pining for something you don't have and don't need.
I will say, there is one middle road you can take to see which of these two buckets you fit into: Take one class - either online or in person, consider just auditing a class at a local college or university - and see how it goes. Was it fun? Did you look forward to attending and doing the work - maybe not every day, but most days?
If so, there is your answer. Continue taking more classes and go for the gusto.
On the other hand, if it was a miserable slog, there is the opposite answer. Just keep on doing what you're doing - researching and working on topics you are personally interested in, write up anything you feel you should, and let your interests take you wherever they will. Call yourself an "independent academic" - there is nothing at all wrong with that.
Good luck!
P.S. Have literally 5 college degrees, three of them graduate degrees. Degrees do NOT make you happy, I can personally vouch for that. They don't necessarily make you UNhappy, either but they are not automatically going to make you either happy or successful. If you're the person who actually enjoys all that learning and developing skills of that specific type, then great. You're one in probably a 100,000 or a million (and not necessarily in a good way . . . ) and following your muse in that direction isn't really hurting anything except maybe/definitely your pocketbook. But the degrees themselves - they don't bring joy or any great benefits in your later life.
posted by flug at 9:36 PM on January 1 [1 favorite]
Psychedelics are the only thing that really helped get rid of this feeling for me. I agree with praemunire that a degree won't help you not feel this way, but I've never found therapy very helpful as an autistic person myself.
posted by wheatlets at 10:19 AM on January 2
posted by wheatlets at 10:19 AM on January 2
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posted by Sassyfras at 9:54 AM on December 31, 2023 [15 favorites]