Pace of learning chokes in beginner Brazilian Jiujitsu?
September 8, 2023 5:02 PM Subscribe
What are good practices for studios *teaching* chokes to new BJJ students? Should I be concerned that they’re being taught from go, with no safety considerations apart from encouragement to tap out, and that more senior students want me to push to my and their limits? How/should I bring up my concern with the lead teacher?
I recently decided to try BJJ at a local studio - I have zero martial arts experience, and zero knowledge of BJJ as a form, but was welcomed by the lead teacher to come and try things out. I emphasized that I’m interested in attending as a practice, rather than to make gainzzz or learn self-defense, and his response was positive and welcoming.
I’ve been to three sessions so far, and am enjoying the drills and grappling quite a lot! In the first session, the teacher sequestered me and another beginner off to the side, and we worked on some basic position changes from mount, and the basics of a sweep.
In the second session, a couple of other beginners showed up, and one of the techniques we worked on was a chokehold using a grip on either side of the opponent’s gi. I didn’t have much of a reaction to the idea, because I figured that beginners would just be learning the basics of the movement, not trying to push ourselves to actually choke our partners.
I was paired with one of the senior-most students, who was enthusiastic and supportive, but took things way farther than I was comfortable with. He kept telling me to dig my arm in higher and deeper when on top of him, telling me that he could take it, then trying to demonstrate on me that we all just need to learn the difference between pressure we can take and - he didn’t say it, but physical or psychological danger is the thing that’s on the other side of “pressure we can take”.
I tried to tap out as quickly as I could, and also verbalized some lighthearted comments about my need/desire to go lighter - “this is all really new to me, only my second class, and so I’m not really confident in my own ability not to hurt others yet” (in response to him asking me to push harder on his neck) - “that’s a bit too much for me” (after tapping out of his ~demo of pressure he thought I could take vs. more pressure - I felt genuine fear, and do not have a poker face) - “I think that strained something a bit” (he responded, “oh, really?” My neck did ache a little the next day, in the spot where he’d compressed it). There was no malice in the interaction whatsoever, but it left me feeling wary - as a dancer and a yoga practitioner, pushing newcomers is a clear sign of a school I want nothing to do with. But those vibes were coming from a student, not the teacher, so…
The third session was taught by another senior student. He taught another choke, this one a variation in which one’s hand and arm go *right* up under a person’s chin and you force your wrist into their windpipe. Again, I just went through the movements, and let my partner know in advance that I needed to go easy on chokes - beginner, neck issue from a couple of days ago, etc. The senior student who was teaching came over and tried to coach me to go harder, and yet again I tried to explain that I’m not yet at a place where I feel comfortable *actually* choking someone. He kind of let it go, but it again felt weird.
Ugh the most awkward part. I am a very small cis woman, and most of the students at this dojo are male-bodied, though many of them are also short and point out how BJJ is great for small people. No matter how I slice it, being a woman choked by a man is just a big fucking deal, something that I would expect to be introduced with some sensitivity, at a minimum for a partner who knows this is my second class ever to say, This can be intense! I’m going to go real slow and light, and please tap out as soon as you feel discomfort. I would expect to do the same if I were a senior student regardless of the gender of my partner, but for fuck’s sake, being a man and exerting crossed-forearms pressure directly on a woman’s fucking neck while her face begins to contort with fear “to show how much pressure we can take” in what you know to be her third hour with the sport just feels GRAHHHHH.
There are two female-bodied more-senior students, and I rolled with both of them in the third class - the older one was also pretty intent on going all out, the younger one heard my ask for going easy on my neck and immediately demonstrated concern, telling me that I could always share concerns with the sensei and even guessing correctly which student had left me with the sore neck.
My partner practices wing chun, and so I asked him if contact moves were taught early in the system. No! he said. There are forms you drill for a long time, and the intro to training with others is a hand-to-hand form that doesn’t involve body contact.
I also know that I have some complicating factors that might not obtain for the average bear: I’ve been choked myself in an assault (I had almost completely forgotten until that ~demo choke - remembering was rough, even though I wasn’t badly injured in the original assault), and I’ve seen a close relative choked in a fight. Consent, boundaries, and teaching appropriate to skill level are major concerns in the dance scenes I frequent, as well as for the yoga teachers I respect. I sing, and so I am deeply disinclined to entertain even minor injury to my neck or throat. I admit my own ignorance and lack of research - I had no idea that chokes were such a big part of BJJ.
I am fully down for the intimacy and risk of bear hugs and sweeps and locks, and even with learning the physical movements of choke holds, though I definitely don’t feel comfortable implementing them full-out against someone and don’t feel ok with them being implemented full-out on me. I can’t imagine that children’s BJJ training involves kiddos putting their body weight on each others’ necks - could there be a way for me to participate here, by asking to learn just the forms and not full expressions, or asking for the accommodation of partners to roll without chokes? Should I nope out because these are signs of a poorly-run dojo? Do you have recommendations on how to bring these concerns up respectfully with the lead teacher?
I recently decided to try BJJ at a local studio - I have zero martial arts experience, and zero knowledge of BJJ as a form, but was welcomed by the lead teacher to come and try things out. I emphasized that I’m interested in attending as a practice, rather than to make gainzzz or learn self-defense, and his response was positive and welcoming.
I’ve been to three sessions so far, and am enjoying the drills and grappling quite a lot! In the first session, the teacher sequestered me and another beginner off to the side, and we worked on some basic position changes from mount, and the basics of a sweep.
In the second session, a couple of other beginners showed up, and one of the techniques we worked on was a chokehold using a grip on either side of the opponent’s gi. I didn’t have much of a reaction to the idea, because I figured that beginners would just be learning the basics of the movement, not trying to push ourselves to actually choke our partners.
I was paired with one of the senior-most students, who was enthusiastic and supportive, but took things way farther than I was comfortable with. He kept telling me to dig my arm in higher and deeper when on top of him, telling me that he could take it, then trying to demonstrate on me that we all just need to learn the difference between pressure we can take and - he didn’t say it, but physical or psychological danger is the thing that’s on the other side of “pressure we can take”.
I tried to tap out as quickly as I could, and also verbalized some lighthearted comments about my need/desire to go lighter - “this is all really new to me, only my second class, and so I’m not really confident in my own ability not to hurt others yet” (in response to him asking me to push harder on his neck) - “that’s a bit too much for me” (after tapping out of his ~demo of pressure he thought I could take vs. more pressure - I felt genuine fear, and do not have a poker face) - “I think that strained something a bit” (he responded, “oh, really?” My neck did ache a little the next day, in the spot where he’d compressed it). There was no malice in the interaction whatsoever, but it left me feeling wary - as a dancer and a yoga practitioner, pushing newcomers is a clear sign of a school I want nothing to do with. But those vibes were coming from a student, not the teacher, so…
The third session was taught by another senior student. He taught another choke, this one a variation in which one’s hand and arm go *right* up under a person’s chin and you force your wrist into their windpipe. Again, I just went through the movements, and let my partner know in advance that I needed to go easy on chokes - beginner, neck issue from a couple of days ago, etc. The senior student who was teaching came over and tried to coach me to go harder, and yet again I tried to explain that I’m not yet at a place where I feel comfortable *actually* choking someone. He kind of let it go, but it again felt weird.
Ugh the most awkward part. I am a very small cis woman, and most of the students at this dojo are male-bodied, though many of them are also short and point out how BJJ is great for small people. No matter how I slice it, being a woman choked by a man is just a big fucking deal, something that I would expect to be introduced with some sensitivity, at a minimum for a partner who knows this is my second class ever to say, This can be intense! I’m going to go real slow and light, and please tap out as soon as you feel discomfort. I would expect to do the same if I were a senior student regardless of the gender of my partner, but for fuck’s sake, being a man and exerting crossed-forearms pressure directly on a woman’s fucking neck while her face begins to contort with fear “to show how much pressure we can take” in what you know to be her third hour with the sport just feels GRAHHHHH.
There are two female-bodied more-senior students, and I rolled with both of them in the third class - the older one was also pretty intent on going all out, the younger one heard my ask for going easy on my neck and immediately demonstrated concern, telling me that I could always share concerns with the sensei and even guessing correctly which student had left me with the sore neck.
My partner practices wing chun, and so I asked him if contact moves were taught early in the system. No! he said. There are forms you drill for a long time, and the intro to training with others is a hand-to-hand form that doesn’t involve body contact.
I also know that I have some complicating factors that might not obtain for the average bear: I’ve been choked myself in an assault (I had almost completely forgotten until that ~demo choke - remembering was rough, even though I wasn’t badly injured in the original assault), and I’ve seen a close relative choked in a fight. Consent, boundaries, and teaching appropriate to skill level are major concerns in the dance scenes I frequent, as well as for the yoga teachers I respect. I sing, and so I am deeply disinclined to entertain even minor injury to my neck or throat. I admit my own ignorance and lack of research - I had no idea that chokes were such a big part of BJJ.
I am fully down for the intimacy and risk of bear hugs and sweeps and locks, and even with learning the physical movements of choke holds, though I definitely don’t feel comfortable implementing them full-out against someone and don’t feel ok with them being implemented full-out on me. I can’t imagine that children’s BJJ training involves kiddos putting their body weight on each others’ necks - could there be a way for me to participate here, by asking to learn just the forms and not full expressions, or asking for the accommodation of partners to roll without chokes? Should I nope out because these are signs of a poorly-run dojo? Do you have recommendations on how to bring these concerns up respectfully with the lead teacher?
I can’t speak to BJJ much - more on that - but at my academy this wouldn’t fly at all for a wide variety of reasons. No contact with beginners. Self defence goes at the pace of the partner that’s least comfortable, and instructors are supposed to enforce that among the students. And for us, moves that are designed for serious injury can only be taught by a fully trained instructor, not a senior student, although students do practice on each other.
If it were me I’d nope out and go elsewhere. But there’s no harm in talking to the instructor.
I’ve done some grappling although my martial art doesn’t do a ton (but in staff classes we did) and I liked it. But I also have been choked in an assault and I decided I wouldn’t pursue it. So I’m biased.
Some schools, and I think Muy Thai, studios that advertise as MMA, and BJJ in particular, are about going up against better opponents to get better and pushing each other. That’s great for people it’s great for. My grandmaster, who holds belts in multiple disciplines, once told another student who had left a BJJ studio and stayed with ours, that when you learn that way when you’re young it’s fine but as you get older your chance of injury goes up a lot. So one reason he designed our methods with less contact was so that people could practice for decades. That stuck with me.
However, I’m sure I’m less trained for actual fighting than at schools that do it that way. Also BJJ is one of the best for real fighting situations. So it depends on your goals.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:59 PM on September 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
If it were me I’d nope out and go elsewhere. But there’s no harm in talking to the instructor.
I’ve done some grappling although my martial art doesn’t do a ton (but in staff classes we did) and I liked it. But I also have been choked in an assault and I decided I wouldn’t pursue it. So I’m biased.
Some schools, and I think Muy Thai, studios that advertise as MMA, and BJJ in particular, are about going up against better opponents to get better and pushing each other. That’s great for people it’s great for. My grandmaster, who holds belts in multiple disciplines, once told another student who had left a BJJ studio and stayed with ours, that when you learn that way when you’re young it’s fine but as you get older your chance of injury goes up a lot. So one reason he designed our methods with less contact was so that people could practice for decades. That stuck with me.
However, I’m sure I’m less trained for actual fighting than at schools that do it that way. Also BJJ is one of the best for real fighting situations. So it depends on your goals.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:59 PM on September 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
So, I (a woman) did BJJ for a couple years at 3 different gyms. Teaching a variety chokes is pretty common from the start, but so many in your first couple sessions does seem a bit heavy on the chokeholds. I'd say my training was over 80% maybe even 90% other things like escaping guard, holding someone in your guard, armbars, throws, etc. Choking was less common than it seems you are experiencing.
Also dude who decided to show you that you can handle more pressure than you thought was highly inappropriate. As in worth mentioning to the owner level of inappropriate. The person on the receiving end of the move ALWAYS sets the pace and intensity. I came across a few jerks in my time but none that disrespected boundaries like that.
I also have experienced being choked as a part of violence a few times in my life. Doing chokes in BJJ was definitely triggering at times. I had a panic attack a couple of times. For me it was healing overall because I found a gym of very caring people who respected my boundaries without question and without attempting to push them. Sounds like you found either a gym with not the best culture or just got unlucky with the one partner.
Culture varies vastly from one gym to the next. One I went was lovely caring people who were there for community, excercise and personal growth and another gym was full of a bunch of aggressive meat heads and the third was very competitive, focused, and respectful people.
Don't be afraid to either find a new gym and shop for the best culture fit, or at least find the people you feel comfortable with at this gym and work with them. Choosing partners you feel comfortable with should be fully supported at the gym.
Also you are right kids generally don't learn chokes for a very long time and mayby not at all until they are teens . An option to learn techniques with the kids might be to volunteer to be the coaches partner to demonstrate moves to the kids. I helped with kids classes sometimes in this way.
I hope you find you comfortable space whether at this gym or another. I really loved the time I spent at jiu jitsu. I learned a lot a grew a lot from it.
posted by CleverClover at 6:56 PM on September 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
Also dude who decided to show you that you can handle more pressure than you thought was highly inappropriate. As in worth mentioning to the owner level of inappropriate. The person on the receiving end of the move ALWAYS sets the pace and intensity. I came across a few jerks in my time but none that disrespected boundaries like that.
I also have experienced being choked as a part of violence a few times in my life. Doing chokes in BJJ was definitely triggering at times. I had a panic attack a couple of times. For me it was healing overall because I found a gym of very caring people who respected my boundaries without question and without attempting to push them. Sounds like you found either a gym with not the best culture or just got unlucky with the one partner.
Culture varies vastly from one gym to the next. One I went was lovely caring people who were there for community, excercise and personal growth and another gym was full of a bunch of aggressive meat heads and the third was very competitive, focused, and respectful people.
Don't be afraid to either find a new gym and shop for the best culture fit, or at least find the people you feel comfortable with at this gym and work with them. Choosing partners you feel comfortable with should be fully supported at the gym.
Also you are right kids generally don't learn chokes for a very long time and mayby not at all until they are teens . An option to learn techniques with the kids might be to volunteer to be the coaches partner to demonstrate moves to the kids. I helped with kids classes sometimes in this way.
I hope you find you comfortable space whether at this gym or another. I really loved the time I spent at jiu jitsu. I learned a lot a grew a lot from it.
posted by CleverClover at 6:56 PM on September 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
Oh also practicing chokehold was always done carefully and only enough pressure applied to recognize that, yes, the choke would indeed work if more pressure was put into the move. No actual sparring or actual choking happened for a long time. when it did it was only on a volunteer basis to and was in a diffenent class all together than the skills classes.
posted by CleverClover at 7:03 PM on September 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by CleverClover at 7:03 PM on September 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
I am a BJJ purple belt and have experience teaching martial arts.
Chokes are a central part of beginner jiujitsu. The only part of what you describe that sounds even a little unusual is this part, which I don't understand: "after tapping out of his ~demo of pressure he thought I could take vs. more pressure". Otherwise nothing strikes me as bad practice.
What can be expected in your first hour or two of Brazilian jiujitsu? To be choked and to choke someone, to the point of tapping. To give and receive armlocks. To engage in intense, vigorous partner training, like the "going all out" your one female partner did. This is not wing chun. These are essential aspects of BJJ practice. Maybe that's not for you.
Your unwillingness to choke your partner and your sensitivity to being choked mean you should probably not be in the general population of a BJJ class right now or perhaps ever. You can talk to the head instructor of the BJJ school and see if they will make accommodations for you. That may or may not be possible, depending on your openness to vigorous training and getting acclimated to chokes. Your alternatives are arranging for private lessons or another martial art. (Be aware that chokes are also central to judo.)
Best of luck on your journey. Please feel free to message me with any further questions.
posted by daveliepmann at 11:18 PM on September 8, 2023
Chokes are a central part of beginner jiujitsu. The only part of what you describe that sounds even a little unusual is this part, which I don't understand: "after tapping out of his ~demo of pressure he thought I could take vs. more pressure". Otherwise nothing strikes me as bad practice.
What can be expected in your first hour or two of Brazilian jiujitsu? To be choked and to choke someone, to the point of tapping. To give and receive armlocks. To engage in intense, vigorous partner training, like the "going all out" your one female partner did. This is not wing chun. These are essential aspects of BJJ practice. Maybe that's not for you.
Your unwillingness to choke your partner and your sensitivity to being choked mean you should probably not be in the general population of a BJJ class right now or perhaps ever. You can talk to the head instructor of the BJJ school and see if they will make accommodations for you. That may or may not be possible, depending on your openness to vigorous training and getting acclimated to chokes. Your alternatives are arranging for private lessons or another martial art. (Be aware that chokes are also central to judo.)
Best of luck on your journey. Please feel free to message me with any further questions.
posted by daveliepmann at 11:18 PM on September 8, 2023
BJJ is based on Judo, and in Judo they don't teach chokes until green belt (Sankyu). BJJ and Judo are both martial sports, not Martial Arts. If you like competition, then that's cool. If you are interested in self defense, it might not be the style for you.
BJJ does have a good reputation for working in street fighting, but that's a by-product, winning a sporting match is the main thing.
Many BJJ players seem to confuse self defense with street fighting. They are not the same. Street fighting is consensual. Both parties agree that a fight is going to happen now. Self defense is non-consensual, one party is not agreeing in this situation. Different tactics and strategies apply.
Finding the right class can be a bewildering journey, and the only further advice I can give is, sometimes the singer is more important than the song.
posted by ambulocetus at 11:39 PM on September 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
BJJ does have a good reputation for working in street fighting, but that's a by-product, winning a sporting match is the main thing.
Many BJJ players seem to confuse self defense with street fighting. They are not the same. Street fighting is consensual. Both parties agree that a fight is going to happen now. Self defense is non-consensual, one party is not agreeing in this situation. Different tactics and strategies apply.
Finding the right class can be a bewildering journey, and the only further advice I can give is, sometimes the singer is more important than the song.
posted by ambulocetus at 11:39 PM on September 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
I am also a BJJ purple belt, and I broadly agree with daveliepmann, but thought I would add a little of my own perspective. One of the distinguishing features of BJJ, in terms of the way that it is practiced, is that there is no long period of drilling forms before practicing them in full contact. It's expected that you will learn techniques by attempting them on a training partner, sometimes against resistance, sometimes on the same day you were introduced to the technique. And, while some gyms will have "beginner" or "fundamentals" classes, even in those there is a planned curriculum, and if you drop in you'll get taught whatever they were planning to teach that day. That you were taught a cross choke on the second day reads as very normal to me.
Furthermore, learning to complete the choke to the point that your partner taps is something I would consider part of the "basics of the movement." It's a widely held principle in BJJ that if you only practice a technique in a formal, held-back manner, you won't be able to execute it in a live situation. This is valuable defensively, too -- my ability to defend against an opponent trying to choke me is supported by my understanding of what makes the choke work offensively.
That said, this:
even guessing correctly which student had left me with the sore neck
would give me some pause. Well-run gyms I've been to generally have a good, if unspoken, idea of who would be a good person to pair with a beginner (especially a smaller, female-bodied beginner). I don't think the guy on the second day was malicious, but the fact that another student guessed who it was makes me think the instructor should have paired you with someone else.
If you go back to this gym (or another BJJ gym) you can ask to roll without chokes as you're getting used to it. People will be used to requests like this: being asked to go light on specific joints for people recovering from injuries is common, for instance. If someone forgets and goes for a choke on instinct, tap early. However, if your intent is not to overcome that discomfort to the point that you can eventually roll without this ask, then BJJ may not be the right art for you. In the long run, it's still a core component of the practice.
posted by egregious theorem at 7:52 AM on September 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Furthermore, learning to complete the choke to the point that your partner taps is something I would consider part of the "basics of the movement." It's a widely held principle in BJJ that if you only practice a technique in a formal, held-back manner, you won't be able to execute it in a live situation. This is valuable defensively, too -- my ability to defend against an opponent trying to choke me is supported by my understanding of what makes the choke work offensively.
That said, this:
even guessing correctly which student had left me with the sore neck
would give me some pause. Well-run gyms I've been to generally have a good, if unspoken, idea of who would be a good person to pair with a beginner (especially a smaller, female-bodied beginner). I don't think the guy on the second day was malicious, but the fact that another student guessed who it was makes me think the instructor should have paired you with someone else.
If you go back to this gym (or another BJJ gym) you can ask to roll without chokes as you're getting used to it. People will be used to requests like this: being asked to go light on specific joints for people recovering from injuries is common, for instance. If someone forgets and goes for a choke on instinct, tap early. However, if your intent is not to overcome that discomfort to the point that you can eventually roll without this ask, then BJJ may not be the right art for you. In the long run, it's still a core component of the practice.
posted by egregious theorem at 7:52 AM on September 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
I train BJJ as does my teen daughter (she started before I did).
For us - kids and adults - in session 1 you'd probably learn a cross-collar choke (which you describe), an armbar, and a triangle choke with the legs. You'd be paired with one of the instructors or pseudo-instructors who work with new people in a more controlled way. It wouldn't be full-out rolling at all. In the second or third session you'd probably start rolling; at least for us the instructor will be deliberate about partners for the new people. Sometime he picks them out, but even if not he's keeping an eye on the new people. Whoever is rolling with them will get a heads up like "don't go crazy" or some other indication that this is a super new person.
I agree with egregious theorem's last paragraph entirely.
posted by true at 2:28 PM on September 9, 2023
For us - kids and adults - in session 1 you'd probably learn a cross-collar choke (which you describe), an armbar, and a triangle choke with the legs. You'd be paired with one of the instructors or pseudo-instructors who work with new people in a more controlled way. It wouldn't be full-out rolling at all. In the second or third session you'd probably start rolling; at least for us the instructor will be deliberate about partners for the new people. Sometime he picks them out, but even if not he's keeping an eye on the new people. Whoever is rolling with them will get a heads up like "don't go crazy" or some other indication that this is a super new person.
I agree with egregious theorem's last paragraph entirely.
posted by true at 2:28 PM on September 9, 2023
Hi, BJJ instructor here.
Chokes are an integral part of BJJ and it's not unusual for them to be introduced early on. The main safety factor is the ability of the recipient to tap at any time and have that respected by the other person.
Don't worry if your partner encourages you to apply the choke for real. (At least if they are an experienced practitioner.) They know their limits and will tap as soon as they feel you have the choke sunk in properly. You will not harm them.
On the other hand, no one should be encouraging your partner to choke you harder when you are not yet comfortable with it. The tap should always be respected.
Ultimately, the goal is for you to only tap when the choke is set fully in place and is a legitimate danger rather than just being scary because it's an arm around your neck. But you'll get there in your own time. No one should be pressuring you to be at that point before you are ready.
In case you're interested, I'll offer a little more info about chokes in general so you know what to expect once you get more comfortable with the concept.
"Blood chokes" or "strangles" work by shutting off the blood flow from the veins leaving the brain, causing a momentary drop in blood pressure and ultimately unconsciousness. Done perfectly, this can be completely painless. The warning sign to tap is the sort of light-headedness that you might get from standing up too quickly.
"Air chokes" work by applying pressure to the trachea to shut off the air supply. These can hurt, and you should feel free to tap as soon as you feel any discomfort.
Both kinds of chokes are based around getting the correct position or "fit" rather than on squeezing hard. If your partner is encouraging you to go further while choking them, it's probably not a matter of wanting you to go harder, but more a matter of finding the placement to execute the technique correctly.
"Neck cranks" (twisting the neck uncomfortably) are not usually taught to beginners, but they can be the unintended result of a beginner who doesn't have the choke positioned correctly and is just trying to squeeze extra hard to compensate. Given that you are smaller than most of your training partners, you'll want to tap immediately if you feel one of those coming on and then give your partner feedback to let them know they were cranking your neck.
I'll add one more thing regarding BJJ in general compared to (since you mentioned it) Wing Chun. BJJ is all about actual body contact and actually being able to make techniques work on a resisting opponent. There aren't really solo forms. From day one, you will be practicing your techniques on another person and trying to make them as technically correct as possible so that in a fight you would have a chance of actually taking them down/preventing them from taking you down/holding them down/preventing them from holding you down/choking them/preventing them from choking you/breaking their arm/preventing them from breaking yours/etc. Since you are smaller and physically weaker than most of your training partners, it will take a lot of work before you can actually do that in a real fight or sparring match. Your larger training partners should be careful not to put more weight on you than you can manage or applying submissions in a way that doesn't give you plenty of time to tap out. But you will be expected to practice your submissions as technically correct as possible so that eventually you could actually choke someone out or break their arm or whatever.
posted by tdismukes at 11:30 AM on September 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Chokes are an integral part of BJJ and it's not unusual for them to be introduced early on. The main safety factor is the ability of the recipient to tap at any time and have that respected by the other person.
Don't worry if your partner encourages you to apply the choke for real. (At least if they are an experienced practitioner.) They know their limits and will tap as soon as they feel you have the choke sunk in properly. You will not harm them.
On the other hand, no one should be encouraging your partner to choke you harder when you are not yet comfortable with it. The tap should always be respected.
Ultimately, the goal is for you to only tap when the choke is set fully in place and is a legitimate danger rather than just being scary because it's an arm around your neck. But you'll get there in your own time. No one should be pressuring you to be at that point before you are ready.
In case you're interested, I'll offer a little more info about chokes in general so you know what to expect once you get more comfortable with the concept.
"Blood chokes" or "strangles" work by shutting off the blood flow from the veins leaving the brain, causing a momentary drop in blood pressure and ultimately unconsciousness. Done perfectly, this can be completely painless. The warning sign to tap is the sort of light-headedness that you might get from standing up too quickly.
"Air chokes" work by applying pressure to the trachea to shut off the air supply. These can hurt, and you should feel free to tap as soon as you feel any discomfort.
Both kinds of chokes are based around getting the correct position or "fit" rather than on squeezing hard. If your partner is encouraging you to go further while choking them, it's probably not a matter of wanting you to go harder, but more a matter of finding the placement to execute the technique correctly.
"Neck cranks" (twisting the neck uncomfortably) are not usually taught to beginners, but they can be the unintended result of a beginner who doesn't have the choke positioned correctly and is just trying to squeeze extra hard to compensate. Given that you are smaller than most of your training partners, you'll want to tap immediately if you feel one of those coming on and then give your partner feedback to let them know they were cranking your neck.
I'll add one more thing regarding BJJ in general compared to (since you mentioned it) Wing Chun. BJJ is all about actual body contact and actually being able to make techniques work on a resisting opponent. There aren't really solo forms. From day one, you will be practicing your techniques on another person and trying to make them as technically correct as possible so that in a fight you would have a chance of actually taking them down/preventing them from taking you down/holding them down/preventing them from holding you down/choking them/preventing them from choking you/breaking their arm/preventing them from breaking yours/etc. Since you are smaller and physically weaker than most of your training partners, it will take a lot of work before you can actually do that in a real fight or sparring match. Your larger training partners should be careful not to put more weight on you than you can manage or applying submissions in a way that doesn't give you plenty of time to tap out. But you will be expected to practice your submissions as technically correct as possible so that eventually you could actually choke someone out or break their arm or whatever.
posted by tdismukes at 11:30 AM on September 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think it's a useful exercise to see what other schools are out there. Even within the same same "style," martial arts schools will have very different personalities. A senior student "should" be able to control himself around beginners. In 202X, a skilled and caring instructor "should" remind more senior students to use control with beginners, and if they want to go hard they should do it with peers. I would suggest looking for martial arts studios that have more women and ideally female instructors. I think you might want to be open to exploring different styles... in many respects the style is of secondary importance to the people who make up the school (e.g. students and teachers). Do you actually want to hang out with these folks?
Good martial arts schools can be hard to find. It may be the case that your original school is your best option. But there's also a chance that there is a really awesome dojo nearby that you haven't found yet.
posted by oceano at 12:16 AM on September 13, 2023
Good martial arts schools can be hard to find. It may be the case that your original school is your best option. But there's also a chance that there is a really awesome dojo nearby that you haven't found yet.
posted by oceano at 12:16 AM on September 13, 2023
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I have learned the hard way that I have to be responsible for myself. I have noped out of more than my share yoga, “Pilates”, swing dance, and other exercise classes when I felt the teachers weren’t thoughtful and/or I was likely to injure myself. I’ve never regretted it, even if it was inconvenient to find a new studio.
posted by A Blue Moon at 5:35 PM on September 8, 2023 [2 favorites]