two-fold career advice, please.

August 21, 2023 12:23 PM

sorry about the ensuing wall of text, but i have a two fold question. need advice about selecting between two very different job prospects as well as whether and how i should ask a question that may affect salary negotiation.

i was one of the mass layoffs in the tech industry earlier this year and with a few weeks left on my unemployment benefits i've finally gotten traction on a couple of job opportunities after 3 months of absolutely nothing.

the two opportunities, while very different, pay about the same salary—almost 40K less than my last salary for reasons detailed below. neither are optimal but beggars can't be choosers in this weird-ass job market.

1. mid-size agency in a director/management role that is one step below my current level. the whole interviewing process was expedited (spoke with recruiter to hiring manager to CCO to 4-person panel in the space of a week) bc the hiring manager and i connected instantly (and in subsequent chats with her she had indicated that if it was solely her decision, she would offer me the job). she acknowledged that i should definitely be in a role one level up (to which i agreed) and that she was hoping to be able to get the headcount for that role in the near-ish future and that she would promote me into that role if i was working at the agency. from feedback i was given, the subsequent interviews went great as well. they were initially focusing on local candidates (the agency is located in a portland where i used to live, which is a 3-hour drive from seattle where i now currently reside) but the head of design was so impressed with my work, that they have agreed that i can work remotely for the most part, with 3-5x visits a month. it's not ideal but not horrible. and does give me an opportunity to have to be in portland, having regretted moving away the minute i left (what an irony it would be if i ended up working for a company in portland when the whole reason i left portland in the first place was for better career opportunities!)

2. large global athletic retailer in an IC role two steps down from my current level. i am only being considered for this role bc the hiring manager is friend of mine from school. he had been hired into his job just as his unemployment benefits were ending last year so he knows what i am going through in my job search. having been through the same program at school, he obviously knows my training, my work, and my work ethic and has also hinted that if it was solely up to him, he'd hire me. he knows i am overqualified but also knows he can trust me to do more in this role than expected from someone more junior. i would not be officially managing or have direct reports but he would want me to lead and mentor the younger members of the team as this role would be the most senior member aside from him. i am at the hiring manager's level so it's also not as if i'm going to get promoted into his job. (i had actually gotten to the last round for a parity level role at this company a few years ago, which ultimately went to an internal candidate—who my friend claimed is "overwhelmed" and felt that i would have absolutely done a better job at). the interviewing process with the company has been slow. i started interviewing them before i even heard from the agency (only had a recruiter call and no formal interview with my friend/hiring manager but have had several discussions with him about the role—and now waiting for the panel interview to be scheduled). i have also worked for every global sports retailer in existence in the past and would love to get back into the industry. it's also a fully remote job which is what i was looking for.

***
while yes, i do not have any formal offers yet, as i said, i've been given hints as to where the wind is blowing.

i'd love to hear what you think will be the best decision for my career.

things to consider:

1. i have been in management/director roles the past 7+ years (with some being both management and IC as i have worked at small startups where that is common) but have enjoyed and have an aptitude for management and want to continue building those skills as they give me more challenge than my IC work (tho i still do that on the side with freelance clients as well).

2. i know there isn't stability in the workplace anymore, but i have also been laid off from 3 jobs in the last 5 years and am traumatized by it. these were at small start ups and a small agency. so yes, i would love to be somewhere i can actually feel some security in being employed at for more than a year.

3. i prefer in-house teams to agencies tho i have worked equally in both settings. i just find agencies less stable even if they have long-established clients. i know for instance, that the agency i am interviewing at had a round of layoffs in the spring. on the other hand, they seem to be doing well enough to be almost completed building an entire new office building.

4. the 40K pay cut from my last salary will be rough for me. agencies also tend to pay less than in-house teams, and this agency seems to pay particularly low. i have said as much to them, and the hiring manager said she would talk to a C-level this week to see if they can bump it up (i asked for salary range between 25-30K less than my last salary to her, which could turn to 15-20K less if i did end up getting promoted). if their salary for this role was higher than for the in-house role, it would probably make my decision easier.

BONUS QUESTION:
my friend at the sports retailer and i also briefly discussed that if i did end up at the agency, he would consider working with the agency as a way to be able to work with me. they already work with an agency in town (a relationship he inherited) but again, he would really like to work with me bc he knows what he's getting. obviously there are no guarantees this would happen. so it could be something, could be nothing. do i mention this to the hiring manager? would this help with salary negotiation or structured as a bonus? (i have in the past, brought another potential big-name client to a past agency employer as well altho that ultimately did not lead to them working with the agency for other reasons.) and if so, how do i bring it up?

i think with the past layoffs, it's shaken my trust in my ability to make good decisions wrt where to work, and i just need some outside perspectives.

posted by violetk to Work & Money (10 answers total)

a 3 hour one way commute once a week would be a HUGE deal breaker. maybe 3-5 times a year, but 3-5 times a MONTH? no way in hell.

all your bonus question stuff is not worth bringing up imo.
posted by misanthropicsarah at 1:44 PM on August 21, 2023 [7 favorites]

I am not a manager, but am in the same sector and have looked for jobs several times when the market turned.

It seems like the key factors here are: 1) do you thrive on being in an office, making connections in person, 2) is the Seattle to Portland commute something you can sustain, and 3) are you adept at navigating large office politics remotely?

I personally like smaller orgs and closer communication, and find large org politics a challenge working remotely, so my choice would be the Portland co if I could handle the commute. They're smaller, quicker, they want you, and so it seems the question is whether weekly flights / stays in Portland are energizing for you.

If you can handle the commute, go with Portland, but ideally with offers from both places in hand so you can compare them and negotiate from a better position.
posted by zippy at 1:49 PM on August 21, 2023

The 3-5x/month to Portland from Seattle sounds really tough, even if you like Portland. That could also add up financially, which would make the reduced salary feel even worse. So you'd be driving down once a week or so? Where would you stay? If you're open to relocating back to Portland, and especially if they might pay your moving expenses, that might save you some money and some time and make job one more attractive. Is there a chance you could relocate soon but not immediately and they'd pay for the relocation? Seattle is more expensive than Portland, generally, right? Though if you want a remote job, that's not necessarily ideal either way. I also think it's not great to be a new remote person if most people are working in person. I do think that requirement is a huge disincentive from this job, even though it seems like the better option otherwise, since it's higher level.

But my advice generally would be to take either job if you are offered. You can keep looking after you're at a new job for 8 months or so. But the regular visits to Portland are a LOT.
posted by bluedaisy at 1:57 PM on August 21, 2023 [3 favorites]

If option 2 has a name that would make a 7th grader giggle, drop me a MeMail and I can tell you a few things about it as an employee if you're curious.

Otherwise, I'd think hard about whether you want an excuse to visit Portland on a regular basis.

he can trust me to do more in this role than expected from someone more junior. i would not be officially managing or have direct reports but he would want me to lead and mentor the younger members

I would be cautious with this. Even with the best intentions from the manager, it can lead to working far above your pay grade with a carrot always dangling just out of reach. Corporate beancounters don't care about the hiring manager's relationship with you.

As you've basically said, you're going to take a haircut in this environment. It's more likely for you to get back up to your current level if you get a new job when the economy is better than counting on what you take now elevating you.
posted by Candleman at 2:11 PM on August 21, 2023 [1 favorite]

Also worth raising with option 1 is whether you can do two visits for two days each a month rather than 3-5 presumably single days. Reducing travel time to 12 hours a month is better than up to 30 hours. It just requires a little more planning.

And this will depend on how much they want you - can any of the travel hours be counted as work? I've had jobs with long transits that did so, particularly if I took public transit that legit allowed me to work on the way back and forth.
posted by Candleman at 2:16 PM on August 21, 2023 [2 favorites]

Is the Portland company planning to cover your expenses for in-office time? If not, that seems like a non-starter because the expenses involved effectively cut your salary more than $40K.

Also, the hiring manager there is throwing up red flags for me - if HR at my employer found out I'd been having conversations like that with job candidates, I could expect at minimum a serious talking-to about openly displaying bias toward a candidate and making what could be interpreted as promises about future promotions. Seems unprofessional to me.
posted by EvaDestruction at 2:21 PM on August 21, 2023 [1 favorite]

If you have children, a scheduled weekly social event/class/hobby/medical treatment, pets - that commute is not for you. “Three to five times a month” sounds like code for “drop everything and come to this meeting”. It trashes your trip to the dentist, your haircut, whatever. Quarterly tops, planned at least two weeks out.
posted by shock muppet at 5:07 PM on August 21, 2023

Years ago a mentor taught me a method for evaluating decisions like the one you're facing. Take a blank sheet of paper. Divide it in half horizontally: the top half is for job A and the bottom half is for job B. Now divide it in half vertically: the left side is for "pros" and the right side is for "cons". Fill in everything you can think of. Then put it aside and come back to it the next day. Add anything else you can think of, and think about how you feel about the sum of the pros and cons for each of your options. A decision should present itself; if not, sleep on it again.

I do note that you don't have an offer from either of these companies yet, and at some level your desire to make a decision now is premature.
posted by heatherlogan at 6:10 PM on August 21, 2023 [2 favorites]

Response by poster: to answer some questions:

• if it comes to it, i will 100% be asking for transit expenses to be covered for going into portland. they did ask if i was interested in moving to portland. i would have actually preferred moving back to portland over seattle but for various reasons not pertinent here, i did not. i also literally just moved to seattle earlier this summer. this was my 3rd cross-country move in 5 years. there is no way i could move again any time soon without having a complete mental breakdown.
• i am single and do not have children but have two dogs. my larger dog goes to daycare 1-2x a week when i am employed anyway, so i would bring him to his old daycare in portland the days i am there. my smaller dog is a senior and basically sleeps all day. the new office is not dog-friendly but the hiring manager is still pushing for that (she has dogs as well). i am close to a next door neighbor who works from home who would have no problem sitting for her those days.
• i have been a manager in remote roles for my last two jobs. the office model at the portland agency will be considered hybrid with employees expected to come in 1-2x a week.
posted by violetk at 8:22 PM on August 21, 2023

the office model at the portland agency will be considered hybrid with employees expected to come in 1-2x a week.

Based on this, I would likely turn down option 1 (unless you were able to move to Portland, which is off the table). Having done a similar commute weekly in an LDR, it really messes with your schedule and energy levels (and ability to make/keep local friends). Unless they're willing to treat travel time as hours worked, you're effectively working an extra 8 hour shift every single week and that's likely to wear you down.
posted by Candleman at 9:21 PM on August 21, 2023 [3 favorites]